back to article Researchers say objects can hide from computer vision by seeking out unusual company that trips correlation bias

Computer vision systems display “correlation bias” that makes it possible to create adversarial images, that could have real-world consequences such as messing with self-driving cars’ ability to accurately interpret road signs. That assertion was made today at the Black Hat Asia conference by Paul Ziegler, CEO of risk …

  1. Chris G

    While I am sure it would be easy enough to train a system to recognise a pizza or a pineapple, a pizza with pineapple on it ceases to be a pizza and the pineapple is now a chunk so it needs to be redefined.

    I would recognise a pineapple pizza as a frisbee!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

      It's a great combo, why the hate?

      Anonymous for exceptionally obvious reason

      1. Chris G

        Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

        No hate just not a fan of putting any fruit other than a tomatoe onto pizza.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

        I'm not a massive fan of gay sex but I don't think it follows that everyone else should abstain from it. See also tea, toast, scones, loo roll orientation, whether you wear you mask in your car*, how you like your steak, etc.

        I don't care if you put milk in your Earl Grey, I won't judge, just don't put it in mine. Or systemd in your distro ...

        * someone literally told me that this was their "biggest bugbear at the moment" and seemed rather hurt about my response that I could think of at least three reasons of the top of my head why someone might be wearing a mask in their car and exactly none as to why they thought they had enough spare cognitive bandwidth for that whilst navigating 1.5 tonnes of metal through a space shared with other road users.

        1. Falmari Silver badge

          Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

          @AC "I'm not a massive fan of gay sex" so when it comes to gay sex you can take it or leave it.

      3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

        Anonymous for exceptionally obvious reason

        I'm not scared. Pinapple on a pizza with ham on is lovely. Hey! I'm a child of 1970s England. Pineapple on grilled ham was the height of sophistication! That's a garnish, that is...

        My Mum's idea of cooking a curry around 1980 was some curry powder (no chilli, cumin, garam masala, ginger, garlic etc) added to a chicken stew - and then further to add raisins or dried apricot. Thus imbuing it with the savour of the mysterious East...

        However I do still think that ham and pineapple go quite well together. My favourite pizza is a proper Fiorentina (spinach and egg) or just something simple with lots of mozarella and tomato. But if I'm having Dominoes, which is already covered in a weirdly sweet tomato sauce, why not bung some pineapple and ham on as well?

        1. Zarno
          Pint

          Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

          Dominos alfredo sauce (not the garlic parm version), bacon, pineapple, ham, mozzarella cheese, on crunchy thin crust.

          If you're feeling more adventurous, swap the mozzarella out for provolone and feta.

          Wash it down with a decent beer to combat the salt.

          I've been on a sour ale kick lately.

          1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

            Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

            Dominos is to pizza what Carling is to beer. Trust me, being able to wring oil out of the pizza box is not a good sign

      4. Dr_N

        Re: Hawaiian Pizza - why not?

        AC> It's a great combo,

        You poor deluded fool, AC. Next you'll be waxing lyrical about doughnut burgers or other such culinary savagery.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Actually it's quite correct to identify vegan pizzas as frisbees because that's all they're good for.

      (I've got nothing against vegan food, just don't like eating things that taste like damp cardboard

      soaked in p*ss... do pipe up if you've found a decent one!)

      1. Dr_N
        Go

        What about a vegan/gluten-free pizza? Surely a winning combination.

        1. Neil Barnes Silver badge

          Is there actually anything left?

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            It just needs a glass to put the tomato juice in. Maybe a touch of salt and some non-vegan Worcestershire sauce to taste.

        2. Chris G

          "vegan/gluten-free "

          You missed out low fat, unsweetened, organic and pesticide free.

          There must be a market for selling empty food containers as containing the ultimate health food, I must have think on a marketing strategy.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Gluten-free Pizza instructions

            1, Remove gluten-free pizza base from cardboard box

            2. Discard

            3, Eat cardboard box

            1. thejynxed

              It's quite arguable that the box is actually more nutritious than the pizza. Vegan food is more highly processed than anything you find at McDonald's or in a box of one of the myriad sugar ceareals full of dye, and not in a good way.

          2. harmjschoonhoven

            "vegan/gluten-free "

            @Chris G: Merde de artiste comes to mind.

            1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

              Re: "vegan/gluten-free "

              Vegan will only stop you getting the cheese, which makes things pretty tricky - vegan cheese substitute is foul, I'd leave it off entirely. But gluten free is worse. I have a frend with Celiac's who helped me install my pizza oven a couple of year ago, so I've been tried to find a substitute for 00 flour to pay him back. So far the best option seems to be xanthan gum, some sort of non-wheat flour, and you have to cook it like a pancake first rather than rolling it out. Gluten is one of those things you don't miss until it's gone.

              @ChrisG why in gods name would you include pesticide free in that list? Are you saying pesticides improve the taste? As for unsweetened, I'm not 8 anymore. Loading something with sugar (or HFCS for the yanks) or Aspartame is not appealing. I now try and buy pickles at the Polish store if I can, as they're not loaded with sweeteners like the supermarket stuff.

  2. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    There may be regional differences to consider...

    Detecting scones that have the cream on top of the jam, or the jam on top of the cream will depend on whether the test is done in Cornwall, or elsewhere.

    ...and what will it do if it finds tomatoes in the vegetable aisle?

    1. Hubert Cumberdale Silver badge

      Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

      We've been through this one before – I say just leave the jam out altogether.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

        Hubert Cumberdale,

        What? Scones without jam? Nooooooo! Thin layer of raspberry on the scone, and then very large dollop of clotted cream on top. One shouldn't spread the cream, so much as squash it flat-ish with the spoon so that you can fit it in your mouth easily.

        This is why the cream can't go on first, because then the jam will slide off the top.

        I'm bringing greed to the jam/cream debate, and therefore there's only one way to go. Jam, followed by CREAM!!

        1. 42656e4d203239 Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

          There was a debate on this very topic between my wife and my cousin... there was much banter until, finally, the wife ended with a classic..."if you are not worried about blocking your nostrils with cream, when taking the first bite, you haven't got enough cream"

        2. katrinab Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

          Unsalted butter, then blackcurrant jam on top.

          If you want cream, then put it on top of the jam, but with a thick enough layer of butter, it's not necessary.

          1. Dave 15

            Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

            The cream IS the best bit.

            Strangely enough the origin of clotted cream is sometimes thought to be as a preparation for use instead of butter. Butter being cold churned is prone to ending up rancid, particularly in the days before fridges. Clotted cream on the other hand has been heat treated and actually survives pretty well. This idea of the origins is the normal argument for 'cream first'.

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

              ...and also why I've always thought that there's not a lot of difference between clotted cream and unsalted butter, at least when used with scones.

        3. Dave 15

          Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

          I have another solution... cream then jam then more cream, then there is both solutions in one... but then I do have a particularly huge mouth and dont care if I end up with cream on my nose :)

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

            But what about jam/cream/jam eh? eh? eh?

        4. Intractable Potsherd

          Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

          Just avoid the whole messy argument and have cheese scones!

      2. FlippingGerman

        Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

        We should get married (or at least, eat cream teas together) - I eat mine without cream.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

      Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit - wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

      1. katrinab Silver badge
        Boffin

        Re: There may be regional differences to consider...

        Context is key.

        If you are looking for a biological definition, tomato is a fruit, rhubarb is a vegetable.

        If you are looking at what food group they belong in, tomato is in the vegetable food group, rhubarb is in the fruit food group.

  3. Dr Scrum Master

    No AI to be seen here

    Move along now.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rule 34

    Thanks to Rule 34 ("for any and every topic, there's porrn of it"), this method will never be effective at defeating anti-porn filters.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Happy

      Re: Rule 34

      What? Is there porn about putting pineapples on pizza?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Rule 34

        That'd be sausage.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Rule 34

          ...in a pineapple ring? Oooerrr missus!

  5. Allan George Dyer
    Windows

    Wait....

    "Anything round pictured near a dog, they explained, is often identified as a frisbee"

    Whatever happened to the "ball". I'm sure I once read a book about a dog and a ball. It was called "Spot", the dog that is, not the ball, or the book.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wait....

      I think you should be terribly careful about anything identified as chocolate icecream pictured near a dog...

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    AI vs Herbert

    Boudreaux & Thibodeaux were driving around town one night, and coming up to a red light, Boudreaux runs right through it, not even slowing down.

    Thibodeaux says, "Boudreaux, you ran dat red light. Be careful !"

    Boudreaux tells him, "Don't worry, Hebert does it all de time, and nuttin ever happens."

    A few minutes later, another red light, and Boudreaux runs it too.

    Thibodeaux screams at him, "Boudreaux, you keep running dem red lights, you gonna got us killed !"

    Boudreaux assures him, "Mais I done tol' you, Hebert does it all de time wid no problem. Don't worry."

    The next intersection they come to, they have a green light, and Boudreaux slams on the brakes, coming to a complete stop on green. Thibodeaux asks him, "Why you stop for de green light ?"

    Boudreaux, looking cautiously both ways tells him, "Mais, if I gots de green light, I gots to be careful, 'cause Hebert might be passing de other way ! "

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      Re: AI vs Herbert

      A green traffic signal needs to be treated with caution, especially late at night. Its a common mistake to assume that because it says 'go' that conflicting traffic is waiting for you. Don't believe it unless you can see it!

  7. Unicornpiss
    Paris Hilton

    Logic

    "I always lie. Now listen to me carefully: I am lying."

  8. David Roberts

    Makes AI seem almost human

    Reminds me of the classic experiment where observers are asked to focus on the actions of subjects in the foreground and don't even notice someone in the background

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Happy

      Re: Makes AI seem almost human

      Is that why sat navs have to be programmed to say, "bear left"?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Makes AI seem almost human

      You mean this experiment. I fell for it wholesale when I first sat in on it LIFE.

  9. Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells Silver badge
    Holmes

    If you're going to trick cars into driving through stop signs by putting up posters near the stop sign, why not just cover the stop sign?

    Maybe change the stop sign to a national speed limit sign.

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge
      Meh

      "Maybe change the stop sign to a national speed limit sign." - the driver will ignore it.

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Because putting your poster over a legal road sign would be illegal. The article is talking about AI vision systems getting confused by context where the context might be changed inadvertently by legal means.

      As the article states, they were being inquisitive, not adversarial, and so not looking for actual attack vectors,

      eg what if a grocery delivery lorry, which are often covered in pictures of food, is stopped by the roadside near a road sign? Or big advertising hoarding with a dog and a ball? Maybe the AI can't see the road sign now, or assesses that the huge dog might run into the road.

  10. Mike 137 Silver badge

    Yawn

    Yet another demonstration of the inability of AIU to actually think. If the hash of the pixel array approximates to X more closely than to Y, AI assumes it is X, and conversely if the hash deviates far enough from X, AI assumes it isn't X. The intelligence demonstrated by this is extremely artificial.

    1. Chris G

      Re: Yawn

      "The intelligence demonstrated by this is extremely artificial."

      It's not intelligent is the biggest problem, it is just a tarted up version of a logic gate, I suspect the average hamster has better decision making intelligence and far less likely to run you and your autonomous vehicle into the path of a speeding juggernaut.

  11. Dave 15

    It is a real issue beyond the jocularity

    The current systems dont cope too well with any number of situations including posters on nearby hoardings or walls. We all know that software is difficult, now with an image it becomes even harder, is that huge face visible to the camera someone really close or a large advert? Humans use a hell of a lot of context when viewing, far more than I think we give credit for.

  12. Spoonsinger

    In 2022 people will be food.

    Saw it in a documentary once featuring Charlton Heston.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fruit and Veg covered juggernaut.

    It would be unfortunate if an Aldi lorry was by the stop sign since they are covered with pictures of fruit viz. peppers, tomatoes and apples.

  14. martinusher Silver badge

    ...and people are that much better?

    We tend to judge these systems too harshly, forgetting that its easy to fool human perception. This is especially true when driving because events are happening too fast for you to minutely examine a scene -- you have to get an overview in a fraction of a second.

    If there's a fault with machine vision is that it behaves like a student (learner) driver -- it focuses on everything, tries to see everything and as result only sees exactly whats in front of it and in the context of what it expects to see. I daresay it will improve with experience -- while its learning it might be advisable to avoid routes and situations that present too complex problems for it to easily handle.

  15. IGotOut Silver badge

    I see a new line of T-shirt design

    One with a nice big 5 in a circle.

    Walking along your nearest A road could have all kinds of interesting* outcomes.

    *by interesting read horrific multi-vehicle pile-ups.

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