back to article Pirate Bay co-founder criticises Parler for its lack of resilience

One of the co-creators of notorious BitTorrent search engine The Pirate Bay has criticised free speech social network Parler for the lack of resilience that saw it go dark after Amazon Web Services booted it out of its cloud. Peter Sunde Kolmisoppi took to Twitter to offer his opinions. The most ironic thing is that TPBs …

  1. Khaptain Silver badge

    Geeks versus Politicians

    I think the difference between the two lies in the fact the Geeks are more capable of keeping things running that politicians are.

    Parler was set up as a political alternative not as a IT project..

    Whether you like Parler or not, it's taking down is sign of what's too come. History has shown us already what these kinds of tactics can eventually lead too, and it's not looking very sunny.

    If the politicians / media keep pushing their current agenda we are going to end up i' a very, very bad place.

    It's almost like we never learn from our past mistakes.. History just keeps repeating...

    1. chivo243 Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Geeks versus Politicians

      I get it... give these free thinkers a place to wag their willies and spout their beliefs, and keep an eye on them too wink nudge... Nice policy! Keep your friends close, and keep your enemies closer?!

      Yes, getting my coat with a copy of Machiavelli's "The Prince" in the pocket.

      The real problem with platforms like these is that they are like that song, that one you really don't like, but you hear it enough, and finally without realizing it, you're tapping your to toe to it...

    2. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: Geeks versus Politicians

      Parler's situation is not a matter of opinion. It openly promoted racism, sedition, insurrection and violence and death.

      Allowing that is how history repeats itself. Not understanding that is also how history repeats itself.

      1. Khaptain Silver badge

        Re: Geeks versus Politicians

        "Parler's situation is not a matter of opinion. It openly promoted racism, sedition, insurrection and violence and death."

        Parler don't promote anything, people do.. and people do the same thing Twitter/FB et al.. it's just that what they promote is in agreement with Twitters/FB current political stance.

        What will happen when Twitter, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Google and Amazon stop agreeing because of some political difference, and it is definitely going to happen ? Thing will get to the stage where the internet will lose it's purpose.

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          The Internet is made to allow people to post information and other people to find it.

          As surprising as this may be to some, the disappearance of Twitter, Amazon, Facebook and even Google will not destroy the Internet.

          Something else will come and fill the void anyway.

          1. Martin Summers

            "As surprising as this may be to some, the disappearance of Twitter, Amazon, Facebook and even Google will not destroy the Internet.

            Something else will come and fill the void anyway."

            What, like blogs or personal websites, shock horror!

        2. AMBxx Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          >> racism, sedition, insurrection and violence and death

          The USA was founded through sedition, insurrection and violence and death against British rule.

          They were pretty keen on slaves too - full house.

          1. Efer Brick

            Yeah, but that was a struggle against the jackboot of British imperialism.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              It was almost exclusively an riot for "we don't want any taxation" after Britain imposed very, very light taxes to pay for a war largely fought to protect the American colonies from the French.

              Then the French won the American revolution by providing material support (an army, navy, money, arms, ammunition, technical advisors to form a US army etc) and then having won the war the French rebelled against the taxes to imposed to pay for the American revolution and executed their King.

              Then the Americans rebelled against paying the taxes to be paid to France, said that the money due was to King Loius and not France, and refused to pay. America is practically nothing but a revolution against paying taxes, which explains why they have the biggest national debt in the known universe and no way of paying it back as despite being the home of the biggest and most profitable multinational companies since the East India Company their main expertise appears to be the avoidance of paying tax with their nominal products being a secondary consideration!

              1. Irony Deficient

                another opinion

                It was almost exclusively [a] riot for “we don’t want any taxation” after Britain imposed very, very light taxes to pay for a war largely fought to protect the American colonies from the French.

                Rather, it was almost exclusively a riot for “we don’t want any taxation without representation in Parliament” after Parliament imposed a series of light taxes without the consent of the representatives of those being taxed (see William Pitt the Elder’s oration in Parliament on this day in 1766, following the passing of the Sugar Act, the Currency Act, the first Quartering Act, and the Stamp Act), to pay for a war largely fought to annex Nouvelle France.

                You are correct that the War of Independence would not have succeeded without massive French support, in men, materiel, and money — but that support was in essence revenge for the results of the 1763 Treaty of Paris.

                Since the US national debt is denominated in US dollars, and the US retain control of the issuance of US dollars, the national debt can be repaid. (That, of course, is an entirely separate issue from when it would be repaid.)

              2. Blank Reg

                The Boston Tea Party was actually about taxes being too low. The duty on tea was drastically reduced, which caused the price of legal tea to drop thus making it hard for smugglers to make any money. It was the smugglers that were protesting.

            2. AMBxx Silver badge

              I think you'll find the white inhabitants of the US at the time were all European and would mostly have regarded themselves as being British, French etc.

          2. Cederic Silver badge

            Re: Geeks versus Politicians

            Yeah, an online discussion site I visit has instituted a blanket 'anybody promoting insurrection gets banned for life' policy. I'm going to get banned for life by inviting them to follow through on that policy early in July.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              What's happening in July?

              1. G Forty

                Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                The 4th?

                1. chivo243 Silver badge
                  Coat

                  Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                  Just like in May... Luke.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                    doh. yeah.. glad I posted anon now!

        3. Peter X

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          You appear to be mistaking racism, sedition, insurrection, violence and death as being "an opinion". It isn't.

          The reason Twitter, Apple, etc blocked Trump and/or Parler was not because they're all liberal lefties trying to force their opinion. It's because Trump / Parler violated their (the service provider's) terms & conditions... namely, they'll tolerate most things, but racism, sedition etc are not acceptable. Because of-course, they are absolutely not acceptable!

          So your point about what will happen when Twitter, Facebook, etc stop agreeing... I'm not sure they do now. But the idea that one or more of them might some how decide that actually racism/violence/etc is perfectly fine, seems, unlikely. Because, once again, these things are not "opinion" - they are quite clearly wrong.

          It is worth noting that certain "news" outlets such as Fox, and even certain Republican politicians are trying to suggest that this is opinion and that their free speech is being suppressed. These people are lying.

          Hope that's cleared some things up! :D

          1. Peter X

            Re: Geeks versus Politicians

            I wouldn't normally ask why people are down-voting, but in this case, I'd really love to know the reason if anyone is willing to explain.

            1. JohnSheeran

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              I would say that you're getting down votes (I didn't down vote) because you are espousing opinion and then also saying that the examples you gave aren't opinion and you are wrong on that note. They ARE opinion and not fact. I personally don't agree with the opinions of the racists, et al. but I can be enough of an adult that I believe that they are opinions.

              People may also down vote you because they believe that the espousing of those opinions on a privately held platform is a violation of their free speech. That opinion is also wrong. The facts are that our constitutional rights don't necessarily provide protections from private entities. Many people are uninformed in this case.

              You also don't need to shout to get your point across. Exclamation points are just more subtle ways of using all CAPS. Calm down. ;)

              1. Peter X

                Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                Thanks for your reply - points noted! :D

                I should've said what the thumb up/down scores were at time of posting, but it was a surprising ratio where > 50% were thumbs down... which people are entitled to, but given the tone (at least in my head), that was unexpected.

                Also, minor point, but I didn't actually use all caps!!! I did use strong-emphasis (aka bold) though, so I might try to use plain italic (plain emphasis) in the future. I am a serial abuser of exclamation marks though- I have no shame!!!!! ;-)

      2. Fading
        Headmaster

        Re: Geeks versus Politicians

        If you learn nothing from history - that is how it repeats. Now remind me how well suppression and exclusions work against the disaffected? Helps bring people into the fold and heal wounds? Promoting insurrection isn't in itself a "bad" thing - e.g. insurrection against Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin was admirable. When insurrection is being promoted against a free and fair democracy that's when you know the promoters are feeling excluded - is suppression and exclusion going to help them accept they can make a difference in a legal and democratic way?

        1. ecofeco Silver badge

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          Thanks for proving my point while comparing apple to oranges.

          You came so close to the trifecta.

          1. Fading

            Re: Geeks versus Politicians

            Your point being history is repeated by allowing the promotion of violence, insurrection and racism? My point is that the promotion of violence, insurrection and racism are symptoms and merely suppressing the symptoms will not get the change we (the human race) really need. If anything the suppression itself becomes another justification for people to feel the way they do. Is the goal to have a better world or merely sweep the bad things under the carpet?

            Would it not have been better to flood Parler with non-racist, democracy supporting, inclusive posts and posters? Highlight the weakness of the causes being put forward, the disjointed thinking and paranoia? Lance the boil and let it heal in the light and air, not just spread the poison elsewhere?

            1. Ben Tasker

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              > Would it not have been better to flood Parler with non-racist, democracy supporting, inclusive posts and posters? Highlight the weakness of the causes being put forward, the disjointed thinking and paranoia? Lance the boil and let it heal in the light and air, not just spread the poison elsewhere?

              You mean cure problematic speech with "more" speech?

              It's a nice idea on paper, but it doesn't work in practice.

              Reddit's /r/history had a good post stickied about it at one point. It related to the idea that they shouldn't ban posts questioning the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust, but instead explain things.

              The reality is though, it takes shit-posters 10 seconds to make a bullshit claim, but an expert minutes, if not hours, to thoroughly refute it. So you've got a lot of wasted effort there.

              Even with the refutation, if there're are enough of these shitposts, it paints a picture of there being some legitimate "question" about the accuracy of the events, when in fact there is none (outside of the brains of some racist shitbags).

              The same principle applies to Parler IMO.

              There *is* argument for explaining things to those acting in good faith.

              There isn't an argument for keeping platforms/services which thrive on deliberately spreading misinformation and lies, all you're doing is providing a means of recruitment.

              And that's before you even consider

              - Parler's "moderation" (such as it is) relies on volunteers reporting posts. Guess what dissenting voices get a lot of...

              - Flooding Parler with "good guys" means sending them into the midst of an active disinformation campaign

              - Those "good guys" may also not want to give Parler any custom in the first place

              Basically, your argument relies on the other side acting in good faith, which simply isn't the case here.

              1. JohnSheeran

                Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                Let's talk about what your real solution really is then. Are you saying that the bad feelings, bad behavior and flawed beliefs will just disappear if you suppress those that espouse such things? That sounds naive. Perhaps we should just put all of them in a place and restrict their movement? Maybe we should visibly mark them in some way so that we all know who they are so that we can avoid them? Should we consider "removing" them from our society?

                All jokes aside and your elitist pontificating aside, how would you resolve this issue?

                1. Ben Tasker

                  Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                  If you consider that elitist, I can only assume you either didn't read it, or failed to understand it.

                  > Are you saying that the bad feelings, bad behavior and flawed beliefs will just disappear if you suppress those that espouse such things? That sounds naive.

                  Don't put words in my mouth. I neither said, nor suggested such a thing.

                  But, I'll answer your question on suggested solutions rather than focusing on your projection.

                  Close off the avenues through which people are recruited with misinformation - i.e. deal with platforms and distributors. You do that to slow the flow of people being fed complete shit.

                  But, that's not enough, you need to also address the things that make these people so vulnerable to "convenient" misinformation. Various trumpist's might be nuts, but underneath it there's generally feelings of being disenfranchised, or otherwise forgotten by the political class.

                  Hard problems to solve, sure, but not something that can be ignored. It's also harder to achieve if "recruiters" are actively whipping bad feeling up against the olive-branches.

                  There's a world of difference between people who hold different views, and those who's sensitivies are being actively exploited for the benefit of others. Parler's tended to be use for the latter.

                  1. JohnSheeran

                    Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                    Look, *almost* a civil conversation. Also, for the record, I am completely against what "those people" believe or are espousing at their principle base.

                    First, I used "projection" for the very purpose of demonstrating where what you are saying can lead. I realize that you'll most likely reply to that "slippery slope" idea as a fallacy but history is against you.

                    Second, your words seem to indicate that "people" are being lured in by these "forces" (I guess that's how to describe it) and my point is that we're still skirting the issue. How do we address the problem with the actual people at the source of the issue?

                    Here's an interesting point to ponder; do you believe that Trump represents the source of making his "followers" believe and act as they do or do you believe that Trump is just a representative of what his "followers" already believed and has therefore given them a strong voice and platform?

                    Also for the record, I live in the middle of "Trump Country". I don't have the luxury of sitting across an ocean and casting aspersions about something I'm not directly experiencing. I even have family members that are supporters and, it's my opinion, that Trump represents what they already felt but I would be curious about how it's perceived from the outside.

                    1. Ben Tasker

                      Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                      Apologies for the slightly disjointed nature of the reply, there are a few distractions about this morning, so my chain of thought got a bit broken at times

                      > Look, *almost* a civil conversation.

                      To be fair, you were the one who started out casting aspersions.

                      > First, I used "projection" for the very purpose of demonstrating where what you are saying can lead.

                      See, now that's where this gets interesting as a conversation, because most people would say it's the ideology being espoused on Twitter and amongst (some) of Trump's supporters that has historically led down that path. I don't disagree that views in the opposite direction can lead that way too.

                      > How do we address the problem with the actual people at the source of the issue?

                      One of the major issues seems to be one of inequality - perceived or otherwise. It's not just financial, but let's focus on that for a minute as it poses an interesting conundrum.

                      Many, if not struggling, certainly feel they could (and should) be doing better financially than they are, and so they rail against "the system". Not undeservedly so, either.

                      But, if you look at the people leading the rallying cry, they tend to be people who profit off of that inequality rather than suffering under it. Aspersions about his ability to manage money aside, Trump's not exactly had to worry about where the next meal has come from - neither have talking heads like Shapiro.

                      So at the forefront of the "rebellion" you have people who've profited at the expense of others, and have only managed to get richer despite those others not having seen any material improvement in their position.

                      Basically, like all populism (left or right), it's a bunch of hot-air comprised of telling people it's "others" fault they're struggling, we'll help correct that, vote for us.

                      Reducing the effectiveness of that isn't simple - you need to fix the inequality, but that requires cooperation from people who'll lose out and will react by whipping a mob up against you (see Jan 6th)

                      Which leads us onto your next question

                      > Here's an interesting point to ponder; do you believe that Trump represents the source of making his "followers" believe and act as they do or do you believe that Trump is just a representative of what his "followers" already believed and has therefore given them a strong voice and platform?

                      Neither, it's an over simplification.

                      Trump is not the source of it - he's actively (and quite cleverly) exploited underlying disatisfaction and mistrust. He *has* also added to that, with things like claiming that the election was going to be rigged (and there are other examples).

                      He's a demagogue - he's a talent for speaking to people in a way that riles them up, as well as for making sure that's targeted. In some cases he's able to mix in just enough truth that the response has to be quite a nuanced conversation, leading his followers to believe the other side is hiding something.

                      I could probably write at length about how that's morally reprehensible and irresponsible (especially for someone claiming to represent Christian views) but I suspect you see that point.

                      > Also for the record, I live in the middle of "Trump Country". I don't have the luxury of sitting across an ocean and casting aspersions about something I'm not directly experiencing.

                      Granted I'm not sat in the middle of Trumpism, but I have spent nearly 5 years sat amongst Brexit - an issue with similar root causes, and whipped up by many of the same people who helped bring Trump to power in 2016 (Brexit in fact, being viewed as something of a practice run for them). Certainly built on at least as many lies - incidentally, your first retort "elitist pontificating" is something very reminiscent of the Brexit debate.

                      So, no, I'm not surrounded by gun-toting idiots yelling about how they should hang Pence for being a traitor. But I am, and have been, immersed in a situation that's being "managed" with many of the same tactics, and we've our own demagogue in power too.

                      > I even have family members that are supporters and, it's my opinion, that Trump represents what they already felt but I would be curious about how it's perceived from the outside.

                      In terms of outside perceptions, I'd say they've changed over time. Back when Trump was elected, there was almost a humour of "are they nuts?".

                      Over time, that changed - from an outside view it's gotten a lot harder to understand why people support Trump after the stuff he's done.

                      Then, you had the stuff leading up to the election, where it was clear he was trying to fiddle with it - deliberately knackering the post-office, Republicans screwing around with rules on mail ballot counting (and then subsequently objecting to those ballots because that's not how they're normally counted).

                      I'm generalising a bit here, but Americans are brought up with a heavy dose of exceptionalism (we're guilty of it in the UK too) - it couldn't happen here, the system will always catch it etc. So I think it's harder for someone amongst it to see it the way an outsider does - it clearly *was* happening, and it wasn't always clear that it'd actually get resolved properly

                      And in fact, it hasn't been resolved properly - Trump's whipped his base up enough that there's likely to be tensions for most of the first term.

                      But, my view on it is probably coloured a bit by Brexit. As a remainer, you start out wondering "*how* are they believing those lies? Of *course* there are going to be issues".

                      Then there's that ray of hope that maybe we won't completely fuck it up, and will get something that's worse but won't leave us too badly off. But there're still a lot of almost rabid leavers shouting about No-Deal, with a seemingly massive following of the Leave voting population.

                      Then those leaders change direction, and most of their base follows them.

                      Now, we've left with a deal that's demonstrably worse than the (still shit) deal we could have had, which in turn was orders of magnitude shitter than staying in the EU.

                      The people who's sensitivities were actively exploited to win the Leave vote are going to bear the brunt of the pain that's coming. The people who *led* them, however, stand to make an absolute killing. The media, unfortunately, won't fully report any of that though, and instead will likely help carry further propaganda about how times are hard, but stiff upper lip old boy, and we'll show those Frenchies our mettle.

                      Ultimately, if you voted Leave/Trump you carry some responsibility for what follows (in the sense that you enabled it). But, personally, I believe the majority of the fault lies with those who actively exploited inequalities to reach an outcome that would benefit them whilst only serving to worsen the inequality. It's hard to understand people who *still* support either project, but we also don't gain anything by labelling and alienating them.

                      To borrow someone else's phrase: Every racist voted Leave, but not every Leave voter was a racist.

                      1. JohnSheeran

                        Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                        Thank you for the concise and civil reply.

                        Based on your reply I'm sure that you see where I was going with my original snark. It was recently reported here that even Bill Maher who is a pretty noted extreme liberal has acknowledged that we had 74 million people vote for Trump in this last election. Even if you put aside any notion of impropriety, we have a problem. It's not just that we had that many voters that voted for this guy but it's also the fact that they felt that they couldn't vote for the other guy.

                        When you throw around phrases like "gun-toting idiots yelling about how they should hang Pence for being a traitor" you don't help the conversation because you just took a position of being anti-gun as if that were the problem and it's not. Until you live here you can't possibly understand the gun issue. Beyond the hyper inflated reporting any time there is a school shooting, the vast majority of our gun violence is in major urban areas that are Democratic strongholds. However, because that is where the vast majority of our population lives, that's reasonable to expect given all of the other factors going on there. It's also where the vast majority of the unjust police brutality against minorities also exists. Again, not a surprise since that's where the majority of our minority population lives. There is a trend here if you notice.

                        I do realize that none of these things are simple yet there is so much of the world that wants to make it simple.I also acknowledge the hypocrisy of both sides of this equation because therein lies the truth. People are inconstant and inconsistent in the majority of their beliefs in our current society. I believe you're on to something about the idea of exceptionalism and that might hit closest to the mark of what our core problem really is.

                        All I'll say to either side of the current American political system is that we need to pay close attention to history. It is all too easy to come up with "easy" solutions to these difficult problems and that will lead us down a path that is the opposite of what our country appears to have been founded on originally.

              2. tiggity Silver badge

                Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                You could also add echo chamber effect for why flood of good messages would not work. Assuming parler is like other social media then users choose who to follow and who to block, so would block posters of narratives they did not like (e.g. explaining why they were wrong) and would mainly be following people of same world view as themselves.

            2. Kevin Johnston

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              'flood Parler with non-racist, democracy supporting, inclusive posts and posters?'

              So similar to how the Proud Boys had their hashtags hijacked by the LGBTQ+ community (including the Canadian Navy!!) to water down their impact

            3. eldakka

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              Would it not have been better to flood Parler with non-racist, democracy supporting, inclusive posts and posters? Highlight the weakness of the causes being put forward, the disjointed thinking and paranoia? Lance the boil and let it heal in the light and air, not just spread the poison elsewhere?
              You can't defeat irrational, indoctrinated, beliefs with education and facts, because they are already irrational it means that they won't accept rational points of view.

              If that wasn't the case, why do we still have religions? There are still billions of devoutly religious people in the world, and all of those religions are completely irrational, nonsensical, inconsistent, in many aspects demonstrably false, in many other aspects not demonstrably true (i.e. make claims that can't be reasonably explained let alone actually proven). Yet we have billions of people, many highly educated, including leading scientists, who believe in them. Flat-earthers, scientologists, catholics, protestants, fringe christian religions, muslims, hindus, buddhists, mormoms, it goes on and on.

            4. Andrew Norton

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              "Would it not have been better to flood Parler with non-racist, democracy supporting, inclusive posts and posters? Highlight the weakness of the causes being put forward, the disjointed thinking and paranoia? Lance the boil and let it heal in the light and air, not just spread the poison elsewhere?"

              Oh you sweet summer child...

              I guess you missed the bit where they were frequently ban non-conservatives, and have done since june? (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200627/23551144803/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like.shtml)

              "whoops" perhaps?

              1. Fading

                Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                So you are suggesting you cannot be conservative, non-racist, democracy supporting and inclusive?

            5. Stuart Castle Silver badge

              Re: Geeks versus Politicians

              RE: "Would it not have been better to flood Parler with non-racist, democracy supporting, inclusive posts and posters? Highlight the weakness of the causes being put forward, the disjointed thinking and paranoia? Lance the boil and let it heal in the light and air, not just spread the poison elsewhere?"

              You are assuming these people are both capable of debate and willing to enter into it. That is not, generally, the case, in my experience. I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours trying to debate with them.

              You do get the odd moderate person who is open to debate, but a lot of them will not change their opinions. In some cases, by arguing against them, you become part of the conspiracy they are objecting to, because you *must* have been compromised to disagree with them.

              I've experienced that debating with both Trump supporters (who are almost a cult) and Brexiters.

              The problem with keeping places like Parler open is these people often give people who appear to have the same point of view they do a free pass and believe everything they say, whereas they will just argue with anyone who doesn't agree with them.

              This is a problem because someone who is good and manipulating people (and it seems that for all his faults, Trump is good at this) can use this to control these people (their supporters). Social media, in my experience, if not properly moderated, can amplify that effect. Parler, at best, is not moderated at all (let alone properly), and at worst, favours the fake news spread by the right.

              While I am not anti Social Media (quite the contrary), I do find the current networks tend to become echo chambers, because we tend to pick friends who have the same or similar beliefs, and because we all post things we or out friends believe or find interesting.

              1. Fading

                Re: Geeks versus Politicians

                Your willingness to engage is commendable and you should not give up. You are unlikely to change an antagonist poster's mind with a few words on a forum but there is often a chance of at least making the silent readers think. By holding your equanimity and providing well reasoned counter points your example is there in black and white (or whatever the colour scheme is) for more than just the poster you are responding to. Avoiding contentious language, crass generalisations and acknowledging the humanity of everyone is the way to be a light in these dark times.

                As a side note it looks like Parler will be back and hosted on Russian servers - I'm not sure this is a win for anyone (whilst hosted on AWS Amazon actually had some control over Parler - now there won't be any).

          2. HausWolf

            Re: Geeks versus Politicians

            Parler actively kicked anything to the left of Attila the hun. Hell, one of their favorite politicians claimed to be more conservative than Atilla.

            https://www.npr.org/2020/11/02/930389754/more-conservative-than-attila-the-hun-kelly-loeffler-s-push-to-keep-senate-seat

        2. DJO Silver badge

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          Now remind me how well suppression and exclusions work

          OK, now remind me how well appeasing fascists works, there are several historical examples you can draw from.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Geeks versus Politicians

        I hate to point this out but so does every other platform, they merely pick and choose which ones to promote and it's typically those which align with the owners philosophy.

        Parler would still work with law enforcement where illegal acts were taking place, the difference is they didn't censor what people could say - they let them say it and didn't sweep it under the carpet without legal repercussion - which is what routinely happens on Facebook.

        Which is better? I'm not sure in all honesty but I know I didn't join Parler because I'm right wing - I'm not, but I did spent most of my time on it laughing at right wing people but there were plenty of left leaning folks on there too for the drama.

        Neither side was being censored because the owners felt like it.

        1. chivo243 Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          Stuff happens to servers and gear during investigations. Ask Elizabeth Holmes.

    3. Filippo Silver badge

      Re: Geeks versus Politicians

      "History has shown us already what these kinds of tactics can eventually lead too, and it's not looking very sunny."

      I agree wholeheartedly! Delegitimating the electoral process, openly discussing plans to murder opposition members, and breaking into parliaments to chase out regularly elected officials, has been shown time and again to lead to very dark places indeed.

      O wait, that wasn't what you meant?

      1. P. Lee

        Re: Geeks versus Politicians

        > Delegitimating the electoral process

        You mean like questioning the legitimacy of Trump's 2016 election victory? Something that went on for four years? You are allowed to question that all you like.

        If you question Biden's election victory your posts will be auto-banned by the legacy social media.

        Rules for thee...

        1. Kevin Fairhurst

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          The Mueller report found evidence of Russian interference in the 2016 election. There’s also the question of Cambridge Analytica’s involvement.

          Following the 2020 loss to Biden, Trump has had 60+ opportunities in court to present evidence that the election was “stolen” or that there was “fraud on a spectacular scale” ... he’s never once done so. Any idea why that might be?

    4. Blackjack Silver badge

      Re: Geeks versus Politicians

      No. The difference is that the Pirate Bay offers pirated content anyone can download. Parley was a place so far in the right not even Trump wanted to have an account there and only did so when Twitter started to censor him.

    5. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Geeks versus Politicians

      Thats a very false idea.

      The 1st amendment states that the government cannot restrict the peoples right of free speech.

      However amazon is not the government, what you put on there has to agree with the terms and conditions of the contract you sign with amazon.... so amazon can pull the site if its hosting something thats outside the terms of the contract.

      There is nothing the US government could do if parler bought themselves some servers, an office, and started running the service from that.

      1. Blank Reg

        Re: Geeks versus Politicians

        Although whoever provides internet connections to the new Parler servers could also rightfully shut them down if they choose to. They might have to become a tier 1 ISP themselves to avoid that possibility. Even then I'm not sure if they would be entirely safe.

        1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

          Re: Geeks versus Politicians

          The odds are if Parler reappears, it will be hosted in Russia. Where better? They'll just claim they're showing the Americans how freedom of speech is done, while revelling in the cheapest way to destabilise the US they've found yet.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Boffin

      @Khaptain ... Re: Geeks versus Politicians

      I think you missed some of the issues.

      Parler never started on their own hardware.

      They built out their infra on AWS. Just like Netflix.

      Had they looked at GAB or even TPB, they would probably have done it differently. However... they would have had an issue w ramping up.

      Building your own server farm. Either in your own DC or a leased cage within a DC, you have to have really good planning and budgeting in place.

      You need to watch and manage your growth, and place orders with an anticipated lead time. You have to budget for over capacity and figure out how to manage if there's a delay in hardware shipments.

      This is true of any enterprise.

      The real issue is that Parler didn't think that they would be forced off AWS and wouldn't have if they didn't pick up Trump. Parler never did a proper DR/BCP. Such planning would have increased their costs.

      As it is... they can sue AWS for breech of contract, but AWS spend more for lawyers than Parler's entire IT Budget. So it may be akin to pissing up a rope.

      To be honest, since they were a startup... they could have gone to the cloud. Yet once they got to a certain size, they could have built up their own DC. Then migrated and/or done a Hybrid approach.

  2. Teiwaz

    If the politicians / media keep pushing their current agenda we are going to end up i' a very, very bad place.

    Perhaps not in a worse place than if mis-information, lunatic conspiracy rabble rousing and hate-mongering is allowed to fester though.

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      "Perhaps not in a worse place than if mis-information, lunatic conspiracy rabble rousing and hate-mongering is allowed to fester though."

      "Lunatic conspiracy rabble rousing and hate-mongering is allowed to fester though."

      This is equally true on both the left and the right.. It's become inherent with how the Social Media sites make their money. If you want to stop the babbling and hate-mongering, you have to stop the communication between all parties...ie Stop Social Media....

      1. ecofeco Silver badge

        Hate to break it to you, but those stories of antifa and BLM storming the U.S. Capital were not true.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          @ecofeco

          And how does the situation come about?-

          https://www.city-journal.org/about-whataboutism-and-political-hypocrisy

          1. Cederic Silver badge

            Re: @ecofeco

            That's an interesting article and one that helps me understand my instinctive distrust of calls of whataboutism.

            His point on 'false equivalence' is superb, if logically unsound. The existing of false equivalences does not prove the existence of true equivalences, but how he's explored it will help me explain to people why an equivalence I'm drawing attention to is not in my view false.

          2. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

            Re: @ecofeco

            That article was so perfectly meta. Just like the whataboutists, it started out with sort-of a point, but then lost the thread and introduced so many irrelevancies that at the end I can't even remember if they are for or against whataboutism. But I think they're for it. Maybe?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          but plenty of the stuff about BLM and Antifa in Portland etc WERE true.

          But those stories were banned from Facebook, Twitter etc. 5 died on Capitol Hill, DOZENS died in BLM "peaceful protests".

          1. DavCrav

            "DOZENS died in BLM "peaceful protests"."

            Do you mean, were killed by police? Or killed by protestors? Because it kind of matters. If I have a peaceful protest and you shoot me, that isn't really my fault. If, on the other hand, you shoot me while I'm trying to break into a highly secure government facility, then it sort of is.

            1. Cederic Silver badge

              I don't think any BLM protesters were killed by police last year (while protesting - obviously all dead black people are BLM protesters).

              BLM "protesters" did kill many people. David Dorn, for instance.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Portland resident

            What the hell are you talking about?

            At least one person dies because they were hunted down by an actual "posse" of LEOs at for all intents and purposes, Trump's behest.

            Too bad we don't have a government commission tasked with establishing standards and practices for communications that are broadcast... oh wait...

      2. Paul 195

        "Some very fine people on both sides"?

        Fascists love to push a false equivalence between people opposed to fascism, and fascists. And unfortunately, a lot of people fall for it. It's not the same as arguing about levels of taxation, or how much the state should look after people. People promoting fascism explicitly want to give one particular group of people rights that another group of people don't have. The people promoting it come from that "in group".

        The people who oppose fascism will come from both the "in-group" and the "out-group" and are pointing out that not only is fascism not justice, but that it always ends in tears. You might just as well argue that arsonists and fire-fighters are just different sides of the argument.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "You might just as well argue that arsonists and fire-fighters are just different sides of the argument."

          Eh, wasn't there a study in the 1970's that showed most fire-fighters had the same infatuation with fire that arsonists have?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Media detox challange

        Take 2 weeks off from all media.

        Feel the difference.

        You'll be happier for sure.

  3. Danny Boyd

    Easy solution

    " When someone the size of Amazon dumps you, everyone else will deny you due to reputational damage.”

    Talk to Pirate Bay, Mr. Matze, maybe they'll host Parler? It could be even cheaper than AWS. Even if it isn't, there are two big advantages: 1) PB seems to be unkillable; 2) they take it easy about "reputational damage".

    1. mark l 2 Silver badge

      Re: Easy solution

      Considering that when i last visited TPB some time ago, it was filled with ads for dodgy adult cam sites and dating sites I suspect they would take on hosting Parler if the money was good enough.

      They are probably hosting in Russia or some other country that ignores the American world police DCMA take down notices.

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Easy solution

      @Danny Boyd

      I hear Parler has found hosting already

      1. Grease Monkey Silver badge

        Re: Easy solution

        They have found somebody to host them . I heard it was Epik which given their history is unsurprising.

        However so far the authorities have not come down on either Epik or Parler. It seems likely however that in about oh... a week from now they will do. How long they survive after that is questionable, at least on US soil.

        It would be funny if the likes of Parler ended up being hosted in Russia.

        1. P. Lee

          Re: Easy solution

          A lot of people have had to move to subscribestar a Russian credit card payment facility because the land of the free isn't so much anymore.

    3. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: Easy solution

      Piratebay has already answered that: No way they would help Parler. They are not helping a site that openly promotes racism, violence etc. etc.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Maybe a site of links needs a far simpler setup?

    He can host Parler, if he's so smart...

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Maybe a site of links needs a far simpler setup?

      According to a report in anther place one of his current ventures turned them down citing human rights.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Maybe a site of links needs a far simpler setup?

        PB is very much alike spam operations, very low tech, very little to move, but you need to be able to dodge law enforcement. They'll be using the same operators who make money by supporting spammers and their ilk. After all, all of them show to be very resilient to take-downs. But I won't take advice from these people about running a real business.

        1. Mike 16

          Hosting needs

          @LDS

          ---

          They'll be using the same operators who make money by supporting spammers and their ilk.

          ---

          That was my thought. Bullet-proof hosting might be especially handy when the company party gets a little out of had.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Maybe a site of links needs a far simpler setup?

        "report in anther place"

        Dammit. That's the sort of typo you make when you're a botanist, particularly when you have a speciality in pollen analysis.

        1. KarMann Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Maybe a site of links needs a far simpler setup?

          Just like a botanist, bringing a pistil to a gunfight.

  5. Ol'Peculier

    Actually...

    Actually TPB is a bit borked right now, it's not keeping track of the number of seeders etc. which means if you try to look at the top 100 TV shows, for example, you get stuff from years ago.

    So a friend told me...

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Parler was open to more than scraping..

    Their whole infrastructure was slurped up and dumped.

    Most of the white-hats were not very impressed with their code, database, or infrastructure. More like Tinker-Toy coding.

    With the extended down-and-out time for Parler, I'd expect that they are having a very hard time restoring to their bare-metal colo hosting they supposedly have without Amazon's services.

    1. FBee
      Coat

      Their backup is currently available for download/restore on archive.org

      See: Wayback Machine

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not Netflix

    " Authorities seem less worried about the site these days, perhaps because the likes of Netflix found a way to secure hundreds of millions of punters willing to pay for streaming video."

    I'd say its more because of Android streaming apps like BeeTV, Cyberflix and the like*, rather than punters just rolling over and subscribing to a legit service.

    * There are better ones but I'm not naming them.

  8. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Idiots

    "It’s not easy to switch to others. When someone the size of Amazon dumps you, everyone else will deny you due to reputational damage.”

    Seriously (and this is ignoring their ugly politics), what a bunch of idiots.

    First off, the regular cloud providers don't care about "reputation" or "reputational damage". They care about two things: 1) Will you pay 2) Will you follow their terms of service. If the TOS include not having hate speech on the site, obviously you are not going to follow the TOS; this isn't a matter of reputational damage. I mean, you probably could lie and claim you're going to run a site with none of the type of content you're currently running and they may be required then to let you sign up... but you'd be wasting your own time and theirs (well mostly yours, since on their end it's just some scripts firing up VMs or whatever for you). It'd be a waste of time, you'd then just be booted for TOS violations within days or weeks anyway.

    Secondly, how can they be 100% unaware of "bulletproof hosting", to be honest most of the content off these hosts is probably piracy sites, spammers, and illegal pornography; but there's two types of these hosts, both of which will work for these guys. One type makes it clear they do not care what they are hosting, they aren't legally required to look at what's running, what traffic is coming in or out, so they don't; some also keep as few records as possible (i.e. they might not even keep payment info on file, so if they were subpoena'd they'd have no info to give to "the man"). The other type emphasizes freedom of speech, specifically to appeal to sites that are legal but kicked off other hosts for content; often times these also keep minimal records .

  9. Pirate Dave Silver badge
    Pirate

    I admit

    TPB was exactly what I was thinking about when I saw that Parler and (much more importantly) AR15.com had been take offline. Those guys have been through hell for years, but always managed to keep something available, somewhere. Probably a good case study for how to build a bomb-proof presence if you're going to go against the social/political/corporate grain.

  10. Gerlad Dreisewerd

    Not looking very hard

    If they're looking for evidence of planning the capital invasion on Parler they are certainly looking on the wrong site unless someone slipped something in at the last minute. Parler was a rather stuffy version of the book of faces. There were a number of media figures but not much for the average subscriber. It wouldn't surprise me to find that Parler was ban-bait for big tech. Just enough to get banned by wokerati. Now the lawyers appear to bayonet the survivors. I expect the commercials to soon appear, "Were you censoredby Amazon? You may be eligible for compensation."

  11. MachDiamond Silver badge

    Make it easy

    Netflix made is easy to rent movies and gave people what they were asking for. Initially, they'd mail you up to 3 movies and you have plenty of time to watch them and could then send them back (prepaid) and get more. TPB made getting digital files much easier than the media outlets were willing to. The pirated files were also stripped of ads, copy protection and warnings that you couldn't bypass. Software was hacked so it wouldn't phone home which means it could be used offline and wouldn't stop working when it couldn't check in. When I was in aerospace, we had computers that were not on any network other than sneakerNet(tm). It was a PIA to have legitimate copies of applications on those computers running if they required checking in with the mothership from time to time.

    If I started my own car company, the last thing I would do is contract with Ford to distribute my vehicles. It would make no sense to rely on a much larger competitor in the same way that companies rely on Amazon to deliver their content. I'd be squashed like a bug. The same thing goes for outsourcing a critical process in your product's manufacture. You won't see Coke sharing their formula with anybody even when bottling and distribution is often through franchisees. Sure, they might be able to save some money, but only at the expense of killing their business.

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