So React is moving to an MVC type architecture? I thought it already had that in part with Flux?
React team observes that running everything on the client can be costly, aims to fix it with Server Components
Facebook's React team has previewed Server Components, allowing developers to write code that runs on the server, speeding up data access and reducing the amount of code that has to be downloaded by the web browser. Should applications run most of their code on the client, or on the server? It is a never-ending question and …
Thursday 7th January 2021 20:19 GMT Graham Dawson
One of the attractions of React is, or was I suppose, that it wasn't a full stack solution, but a UI framework. A lot of my work has been using React with whatever datastore and data source was most appropriate to the situation at the time (most recently, apollo-graphql, which is rather nifty, but also flux + some random API) rather than being tied to one blessed solution.
I'm not entirely sure if that's what they're discussing here, though. It feels like some hybrid mockery of server-side rendering and API/datastore, which makes me worry about possible merging of concerns and a loss of flexibility.
I feel like the real problem they're trying to solve isn't actually architectural. As far as React is concerned, the UI framework is a solved problem, with only incremental tweaking to keep up with standards from here on. Maintenance isn't nearly as glamorous or intellectually stimulating as new feature implementation, so they're inventing new features to creep towards. Server-side is the most obvious, but it's also a solved problem, using existing bundlers and compilers, like Webpack and Babel. This new server component system won't simplify things, because it will still have to rely on either implementation in an existing server-side framework such as Express, or on existing bundler/compiler toolchains, or it will have to become a complete replacement for all of them at some level.
The issue is ultimately one of "not invented here". They want to control the entire stack for their own purposes, rather than thinking about the community as a whole. React as a UI framework is great. React as a complete stack becomes overly complicated (yes, you can laugh here), unwieldy, prone to greater error, and isolated from the greater JS ecosystem. That kind of sucks.
Thursday 7th January 2021 11:28 GMT Greybearded old scrote
Thursday 7th January 2021 14:38 GMT Warm Braw
It would be the same problem with Wasm - which is as near to native code as you're going to get - you still have to call back into the DOM to display the results.
Historically, the focus has always been on getting load off the servers and shifting it to the browser. If you're happy to do the work on the server, then there's an argument for doing all of it and simply sending a stream of GPU operations to the browser to draw the result. I think that's the way we may be headed, even if we're proceeding by a series of apparently random walks.
Thursday 7th January 2021 15:01 GMT Phil O'Sophical
Thursday 7th January 2021 20:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Friday 8th January 2021 10:00 GMT AndyMTB
Friday 8th January 2021 20:15 GMT Anonymous Coward
"So the entire page would be sent as X-directives...?"
Friday 8th January 2021 13:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
Depends on the application I guess. I've been building websites since the 90s both professionally and casually...to me it seems like there has never really been a focus on anything other than just progress.
I mean, back in the day, using iframes was king for layouts. But you quickly became that guy that wasn't using tables yet. Then came div layouts and you were a tool for using tables.
I think what is happening here is that react is trying to stay relevant.
Bootstrap is dropping a lot of JS in the next major release and moving to almost pure HTML5. So jQuery and other render blocking dependencies will no longer be required unless you need them and in theory designs based on Bootstrap will look more consistent across platforms.
This signals a shift towards having less JS bloat in your UIs in the future, hence why React may be trying to move some of that bloat behind the scenes.
Thursday 7th January 2021 11:30 GMT easytoby
Thursday 7th January 2021 11:49 GMT The Mighty Spang
am i missing something?
"he calls the example function FetchAllTheStuffJustInCase() – it is efficient, but an ugly solution, particularly if at a later date the design changes and not all the data is needed. The alternative, he said, is a separate fetch for each component, which impacts performance."
erm couldn't you do something like
FetchMeTheStuffIAskFor( ["/api/user","/api/stocklist","/api/basket"], [ params1, params2, params3] ) ?
and an api on the other end which just calls all the apis requested internally and assembles the results?
Thursday 7th January 2021 12:30 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: am i missing something?
You could indeed, but wouldn't it be nice if the server knew what stuff you're going to need and included it already when sending the main page? Saves an extra round trip.
Hell, you could just call this a Hypertext Pre-processor. But to be popular with geeks of a certain vintage you need to make it a recursive acronym: PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor. I reckon I'm onto something here...
Friday 8th January 2021 18:55 GMT bombastic bob
Re: am i missing something?
NATIVE CODE is nearly ALWAYS better. Do only what's needed, and do it on the server. And it should be EFFICIENT code, and not "grab everything _AND_ the kitchen sink, 'just in case'". You don't need to thumbnail every file before you can select one, as an example, especially when a directory contains HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS of files... example, do a gnome or mate 'file open' on files in /usr/bin - see what I mean?
At some point the server operators will STOP stealing CPU from the clients and realize how inefficient their processes have been, when they NECESSARILY move it to the server side and discover the resources that doing things "that way" actually consumes!!!
Thursday 7th January 2021 12:45 GMT Buzzword
Turning UI devs into Full-Stack devs
One language (or framework) to rule the entire stack. This helps balance out resources across front-end and back-end. How many times has a front-end dev's work been delayed because the back-end devs are behind; or vice-versa?
Problem is, this doesn't solve the next level down in the stack. Somebody still needs to manage database changes, server configuration changes, auth model changes, hardware; and all the other weird and wonderful things further down the stack.
Thursday 7th January 2021 12:46 GMT Howard Sway
Client / server architectures
are like types of customers. Thin clients, thick clients, fat clients, those who think the server should do everything for them and those who think the client should control everything................ you'll meet them all eventually if you stay in the industry long enough.
Thursday 7th January 2021 13:39 GMT Robert Grant
Server Components are not the same as server-side rendering and there are no ugly screen refreshes as users navigate a page
Server-side rendering doesn't imply screen refreshes like that. SSR is an initial server-side render of React (or equivalent) code into HTML, with all the events etc attached, but still works like React (or equivalent) once it hits the browser. You're thinking of old-school request/response full page refreshes.
Thursday 7th January 2021 13:56 GMT msobkow
Anyone with serious Enterprise development experience knows the expense of transmitting data to a client for processing DWARFS the cost of a complex RPC on the server that can do the IOs close to the databases.
But the internet kids have to learn old technology all over again, because they're in love with the buzzwords and don't realize it has all been done before under different terms with different languages. I've been coding since the 80s; it is surprising how little has really changed when you get to the nuts and bolts of the design issues and caveats involved.
Thursday 7th January 2021 22:34 GMT cbars
Right. This is the 5th or 6th comment I've seen like this so apologies for picking on yours but:
I've been in this game a few years, so am by no means a young 'un, but I've heard this crap for my entire career and while I agree that this is a futile dance of circles I do not agree its youthful arrogance. Want to know why "kids these days" don't know about what went on in the 80's...?
Your documentation was shit.
Thats it. Yours was, the companies you worked for didn't bother either, and no one has preserved any of what docs there were because they are crap.
*The* biggest difference, and the best contribution a developer can make is to write solid docs.
When I join a project and find a good doc, it doesnt really matter how crap the code is, it will live on, because I understand the intention and can have confidence in any changes (and assure them with targeted investigations). If there are no docs, no way does anyone have any other option than to back away slowly and start building something to fit the current state of play elsewhere.
Thats because you're paid to get shit working not reverse engineer some code that the author was "so proud of" that they couldn't even be bothered to put their name on it.
*That* attitude scales, and spreads, and is the root of all evil.
So its great to hear you have so much enterprise experience and you're also fighting the good fight to ensure all your KDDs get documented, your architecture and quick fixes are in a centralised and indexed change log etc; just don't blame the "kids" for not being able to follow the spaghetti dungeons that idiots built.
Honestly, I once heard some old boy brag that he built and deployed a business critical application within 3 days, and if that doesn't shock you then there is no hope.
You know what "real" engineers and architects do for the majority of the time? Yeah, its documentation. If you're not doing that, you're a brick layer, and I hope you're following someone else's instructions.
(Once again, not personal! "You" is generic and at the other comments too :))
Edit: also, no disrespect to brick layers, but you won't find a bricky saying he's an architect
Thursday 7th January 2021 23:54 GMT Andrew Commons
"Working software over comprehensive documentation"
You reap what you sow.
I was coding for a living way before this when comprehensive documentation was part of the process. The process was applied on a per project basis and the problem that wasn't addressed very well was centralising the documentation so that it reflected the system as it evolved over several decades.
The documentation was far from shit, it was the documentation management that sucked. Now you don't even have the documentation to mismanage.
Friday 8th January 2021 08:26 GMT cbars
Yes indeed, managing documentation is a key part of it. By good docs, I dont mean documenting the names of variables, or internal data types, or view layout witeframes etc etc
I mean appropriate documentation that documents interfaces, specifies assumptions and most critically of all explains the business objectives of the software.
"What does this do?"
"Dont know but if we don't run it then X (downstream) breaks"
Yes, Jesus, obviously a working system comes first, but the amount of code I see that doesn't even have a README.... how can you tell its working if you havnt got the requirements documented...?
Friday 8th January 2021 18:53 GMT bombastic bob
Friday 8th January 2021 14:10 GMT Martin M
Not disagreeing on the importance of good documentation, although would rather see a small set that is completely current and addresses the load bearing walls of the architecture than reams of useless outdated rubbish. Similar at code level. The very best code doesn’t need much at detail level because it’s obvious what it’s doing. But good code is quite rare.
However, this isn’t really about specific documentation for a particular system - it’s about fundamental distributed systems design knowledge. It’s going to be relevant forever because information can’t travel faster than the speed of light and hence latency will always be important for globally distributed systems. Its not like this isn’t written down either, see
which links back to a 2002 book, and it was widespread knowledge well before then, right back to Deutsch’s seven fallacies of distributed computing in 1994. Yet people somehow manage to graduate from Computer Science courses or have long IT careers without knowing about this or e.g. ACID, locking/deadlocks, consensus, cache invalidation, message sequencing, idempotency, CAP etc.. I’m still not quite sure how.
In 2003, on a project with a global user base, as well as having explicit architectural principles covering interface granularity I insisted on a hardware WAN emulator in front of the local dev/test servers. Turned up to Singapore latency (about 300ms IIRC). People stop designing inefficient interfaces/using them badly quite quickly when they personally feel the pain :-)
Friday 8th January 2021 18:53 GMT bombastic bob
You know what "real" engineers and architects do for the majority of the time? Yeah, its documentation
Sadly, no. [although I'm doing docs at the moment, seriously]
I run into 'lack of proper documentation' a LOT. I think most others do as well. If "Stack Overflow" is the best source for information on a programming language or platform, then the official documentation is either poor quality or missing.
Thursday 7th January 2021 14:10 GMT sabroni
Back in the day it all ran on the server. The more clients you had, the more resources you needed.
Nowadays a client brings compute capacity with them. If you can design your system to take advantage of that it will scale better.
But of course anyone with serious Enterprise development experience knows that....
Thursday 7th January 2021 23:25 GMT Elledan
Barking up the wrong tree
Maybe it's just that many people are on zippy internet connections without data limits, but speaking as someone who still remembers when utilities that checked the approximate load time for a specific website page one was working on were common, I think they're slightly delusional.
Yes, a lot of people are on 4G LTE links and 100+ Mbps VDSL/cable/fiber, but there are plenty of people (even in questionably developed countries like the US and UK) for whom the main issue with today's websites isn't whether all the processing bloat runs on the server or client side.
It's easy to say that 'these days we got the bandwidth and computing resources', but that depends on everyone upgrading to new, zippy systems every few years. For many families and adults, all they have is an older PC (think 2010 vintage), or an older (budget) phone. I'm one of those lucky ones who happen to have a tricked out PC (2015-vintage, still with 32 GB RAM), but even with Chrome open on just the Netflix site, the browser is using about 1 GB of RAM already.
I happen to have a 2010-era PC around as well (quad-core Intel pre-Core series CPU, 8 GB RAM), which can still browse the web, but it's already a painful experience there. Want to even open Facebook on it? Better grab a coffee. Want to actually use Facebook, or Twitter, or anything else 'web-app'? Hope you are on the good relaxation meds because you will need them.
Maybe I'm just old and grumpy and upset that things are changing, but from where I am standing as someone who did a lot with web development and web accessibility, Facebook isn't even barking up the wrong tree here when it comes to addressing the actual problem. This is just plain wankery, pretty much. It's just text and images. The dynamic part is nothing fancy, we did that in the late 90s already using hidden frames (later iframes) and the basic JS of the era. And it ran fine on a Pentium 200 with whatever crusty IE or NS that was on it.
I'm not seeing what we are gaining relative to that, except the need to buy new PCs and smartphones more often to keep up, while those who cannot afford it to spend money on these things will fall behind.
Friday 8th January 2021 02:01 GMT Anonymous Coward
This sounds awfully like JSF (Java Server Faces), which turned out to be a great way to cripple web interfaces with too many requests flying back and forth. It assumed multiple requests for smaller bits of data was going to scale, versus working out what a page needed up front and getting it in the initial request. In the Java world most people have gone back to the latter approach, with subsequent requests using AJAX to just fetch or update the bare minimum of data.
Friday 8th January 2021 09:42 GMT RobLang
Solution to the problem isn't always more code
I accept that in a microservice world, one team owns the entire stack from DB to browser and having the same tech running all the way through is good for the team if that's the tech they want to choose. Fine with that.
However, the problem here seems to be the efficiency of multiple calls to the server. In an HTTP 1.x world, that's certainly the case but with HTTP 2 coming (eventually) then chatty calls to the server have less overhead. Isn't that the problem they should be solving rather than adding more code?
It feels to me like the browser manufacturers are becoming more opaque like they were in the later 90s and not really co-operating with the developers. I fear that silos are going to lead to more solutions like this.
Friday 8th January 2021 16:29 GMT ozzie252
Friday 8th January 2021 18:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
Something is fundamentally wrong
Back in 2008, I made an application which showed some graphics. It wasn't even native or using hardware-accelerated graphics; it was .NET and bog-standard WPF. It ran well enough (albeit on Windows only) on 2008 machines, and it took me about a year, working half time.
Years later, the client wanted to port it to the browser, so it could run anywhere. They brought in a full time developer in addition to myself, so that's three times the resources, and it took us over three years to reach feature parity, so dev time was about 10x.
In fairness, part of that is because we've had to redo the whole UI once, because the new and shiny framework we were using got dropped in favor of the _new_ new and shiny. Just keep using the original framework? Can't, because it depends on stuff that depends on stuff that depends on stuff that has been found to have critical vulns; if we update it then everything breaks.
Meanwhile, the WPF version from 2008 is still working, it doesn't require a web server, it actually works offline (no, service workers don't really work), it doesn't depend on shit that this month may or may not be sending your data to China, and it's roughly 10x faster using 10x less RAM. Sure, it only works on Windows, but guess what? If I had spent all that time just making a native version for every single OS that the client's users were interested in, I could have done it myself, I'd have finished earlier, and we'd have a better product. Hell, if we had kept up development of the .NET version, at this point we could probably run it on Linux and Mac with just minor tweaks.
I know, I know, it's not quite that bad, most of the time. But it sure feels that way a lot of the time. Not even WASM is looking like it'll solve this. There's something fundamentally _wrong_ with web development, and I fear it's not going to get fixed through incremental changes.
Friday 8th January 2021 21:47 GMT chuBb.
Re: Something is fundamentally wrong
The problem is cultural I think, the Web team always seems to be the youngest, experience and longevity push you towards the back end and processes, certainly thats how my career trajectory is headed that and ux got v boring, having lived through css - > xhtml - > ajax - > fuckit-justput-<doctype>-at-the-top I just can't be arsed give me a good systems integration challenge instead...