back to article Where in the world is Jack Ma? Alibaba tycoon not seen since October after slamming Chinese government

Former CEO and founder of Chinese e-commerce giant Alibaba Jack Ma has vanished from public view, fueling fears Beijing is punishing the cloud mogul for speaking out against the Chinese government. Speculation soared after Ma did not appear as a judge on the November 14 finale of his own reality TV show Africa’s Business …

  1. alain williams Silver badge

    And we still do business with China ?

    The richer that China gets the more confident that it will be and believe that it can get away with this sort of thing. This case is internal to China, but it is exerting its might beyond its borders.

    We are so incredibly short sighted. We think that we are saving pennies but are unaware that we selling our futures. Eg Amazon is entering pharmacy, it will kill much of retail pharmacy in the UK, along that we lose thousands of skilled, well paid jobs replacing them with minimum wage warehouse grunts; Amazon will put our prescriptions into its marketing database and use this to try to sell us more stuff and destroy more other businesses.

    1. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: And we still do business with China ?

      "along that we lose thousands of skilled, well paid jobs replacing them with minimum wage warehouse grunts"

      The harsh reality is that if skilled, well paid jobs can be replaced by minimum wage grunts and/or AI, then sooner or later they will be; if not now by Amazon, then later by somebody else.

      As with every industrial revolution, meatsacks need to be able to differentiate themselves in value in order to be retained and compensated. 'Twas ever thus.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And we still do business with China ?

      we still do business with China?

      You need to add

      Saudi Arabia (unless oil and weapon sales are more important, and murdering critics is fair game), Israel (unless it is "just" Arab civilian "collateral", not civilian casualties).

      Ooh and the United States too. (slavery, international bullying, citizen and ally spying, political interference, enviromental destruction, climate change, low animal welfare and human welfare standards, far right supporting government that seems to organising a coup)

      China frankly is not the worst in the list. For now. Today US is the bully and the EU is a countering force. An argument is if China or US will be the worse bully in the future. Are two bullies better than one?

      >>we lose thousands of skilled, well paid jobs replacing them with minimum wage warehouse grunts

      Surely for that substitution to be tenable and practical - either they are not using the skills, or people do not value those skills.

      Amazon is about scale and efficiency (including tax efficiency). Ideally a competitor should have come in to counter them, but for whatever reason that does not happen.

      I'd certainly prefer more efficient and large scale service providers, but that does not mean there should be none by your logic.

      All brick and mortar stores today are becoming about the immediacy of delivery of goods/services and/or the interaction with those goods/services (VR is eating into this in time).

      If there isn't wide demand for both or either of the above, Amazon will gobble that business in time. What we need is more companies to chase scale and efficiency, why isn't that happening?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And we still do business with China ?

        > China frankly is not the worst in the list.

        China is guilty of every item you listed other nations guilty of combined. How does that not make them the worst in the list?

        > Amazon is about scale and efficiency (including tax efficiency). Ideally a competitor should have come in to counter them, but for whatever reason that does not happen.

        > What we need is more companies to chase scale and efficiency, why isn't that happening?

        Because, like any market in or approaching a monopoly state, as soon as someone threatens one of Amazon's businesses, that smaller competition is either bought up or shut out (and thereby shut down) by Amazon. Their only effective competition can be from other large corporations which also can control their entire supply chains, or subsidise that competition using revenues from a monopoly in another market.

        If you truly want competition and all the benefits that brings, you need to push for less efficiency, because the most efficient system has a single centrally-managed supply chain from source to product.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And we still do business with China ?

          For its per capita wealth, China is not the worst. For eg the carbon the US spews per capita is hard to justify. It is home to the global megacorpsyou despise and the tax wealth that brings but yet the US is amongst the worst. But this is subjective anyway. So a discussion is moot as it is just two opinions rambling.

          >> as soon as someone threatens one of Amazon's businesses, that smaller competition is either bought up or shut out (and thereby shut down) by Amazon.

          So which is the pharmacy dispensary that was acquired or is currently efficiently handling this sector?

          Walgreens isn't some small player that could not make this market and service more efficient.

          >If you truly want competition and all the benefits that brings, you need to push for less efficiency, because the most efficient system has a single centrally-managed supply chain from source to product.

          This is not true - you assume one implementation will *remain* the best implementation, for all needs. At best a fully integrated chain might be temporarily most efficient. There would also be no incentive to improve it, which would be self-defeating. Not accounting for logistical issues, or the fact that a single chain cannot address everything as generally it will be technologically limited. You need to be spelling out your cost function before making such a conceptual claim that *targetting* less efficiency is required for competition.

          Chasing less efficiency is not desired, chasing better is what is needed.

          Amazon is not currently a monopoly in pharmacy dispensary. Frankly Walgreens is. You conveniently don't see Amazon as a valid competition for Walgreens/Boots, but somehow the other way round is fair game, and Walgreens should not be touched.

          I;m surprised by the upvotes - this is just anti-Amazon/anti-China - their principles can be used and forgiven but so long as it is some else using them. Only Amazon and China cannot.

        2. fajensen

          Re: And we still do business with China ?

          I think competition is appropriate for sports. When people’s lives are place on the line in competition games designed and run by squillionaires (who are bailed out when they lose) then “competition” can go fuck itself right in the bottom with a stick full of splinters!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: And we still do business with China ?

            so using your sport analogy, you want everyone sitting in the pit watching?

            And someone *else* - TBD - will play?

            For your enjoyment no doubt.

            Or do we all stand in the pitch and kick about to nowhere and nothing - because you know - no competition.

            I'd be the one snoring on the side. Make sure I enjoy my snooze.

    3. iron

      Re: And we still do business with China ?

      In 2019 one of the assistants at our local pharmacy (a local chain) asked for a raise as she was earning more in the evenings delivering pizza for Dominoes. She had worked there for over a decade. The boss refused so she quit and took up delivering pizza full time. Workers in local pharmacies are already earning minimum wage (aside from the single qualified pharmacist in the shop I assume).

      Pharmacy will be a bad move for Amazon. There is no way their systems will cope with the myriad of different procedures in place at UK GPs, procedures that cannot be changed because the computer says so - just ask NHS IT. They will not be able to cope with doctors forgetting to sign some items, forgetting to put some items on the list, items being missing from the repeat prescription list, being sent a prescription that should have gone direct to the equipment manufacturer and the many, many other fuck ups our GP makes with my partner's prescriptions (which include controlled drugs) at least once a month. Not to mention trying to handle the rottweilers (receptionists) who control access to GPs to get such issues fixed.

      Selling medicine for little Johnny's cough is one thing but handling prescriptions is another matter entirely.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And we still do business with China ?

        If the rumour does hold true and they do enter, between you and amazon, I'll bet a pretty penny amazon has assessed the market with subject experts a lot better.

        Maybe even hired some of that NHS IT, if that is what it takes.

        I think it is all to feed the AWS ML data sets.

        1. moonpunk

          Re: And we still do business with China ?

          Couldn't agree with you more - to think that Amazon would enter a market with little research is naive to say the least. This certainly isn't their first time at the Rodeo!

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And we still do business with China ?

      in one word, yes.

      After all, we did business with Herr Hitler, probably right after 3rd Sept. 1939, why would things be different in 2021? (I love those totally irrelevant adhitlerumesque arguments!) We preached about democracy, freedom of speech, freedom from oppression, and all others - 80 years ago. With commendable consistency, we preach about exactly the same now, hurrah. We did business with those regimes (I bet "to engage and change them from within!) then, we do business now. Don't do as I say, do as I do. After all, the ultimate fallback argument would go, if we don't do business in China, Germany will. If Germany won't (oh yes, they will!), Ghana and Brazil and 9/10 of Asia do, so, "YOU KNOW..." Humans are the top class in hypocrisy, and our hypocrite masters only get away with this, because, we, hypocritical voters are exactly like them. Wink-wink, nudge-nudge, know what I mean? :(

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And we still do business with China ?

        Hypocrites indeed.

        For all the anti-Amazon and Anti-China talk, pretty much all of the commentards are shopping on Amazon and buying Chinese stuff.

        They'll use Amazon pharmacy, but someone else should make sure their local independent stays afloat.

    5. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: And we still do business with China ?

      exerting its might beyond its borders.

      Therein lies the problem. The CCP owns ALL China's businesses, literally and figuratively. NO good can come from that. When your masters dictate, you follow or lose your job. Or worse.

  2. Potemkine! Silver badge

    At least...

    Rich people are treated in China as the poor ones when they dare to speak against Big Brother. It's an equality of treatment unknown in the western world.

    Ruthlessness applies to everyone.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: At least...

      @Potemkine!

      Power is privatised in the west, it is not in the hands of politicians. In China power is with the party.

      It is the western polician that suffers if they speak against the private moguls, who bankroll their elections and frame their media posture.

      So whomever has *power* applies ruthlessness to everyone, even in the west.

  3. thames
    Big Brother

    There are a lot of financial questions which need answers.

    The Register's earlier article, as well as various other reports have raised real concerns about Ma's Ant Financial subsidiary, which is acting more like an unregulated bank than as a tech company.

    What Ma is criticising the government about is the government stepping in and telling him that if he wants to operate a bank then he needs to apply for a banking license and operate under bank regulations, including meeting capital adequacy requirements.

    There is genuine concern that if the authorities in China don't do something serious about the fin-tech industry in China, the end result may be a banking system implosion that makes the 2008 financial crisis look like a minor blip. I'm really not looking forward to "global financial crisis 2.0" in 2021 after what we've gone through in 2020.

    Most or all of the big tech companies in China are also under investigation by the competition authorities for abuse of their position with respect to carving up the market between them by forcing small merchants to sign exclusive contracts.

    I don't know where Jack Ma is at the moment, but from what I've read he has a lot of questions to answer about Ant's finances.

  4. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    Looks like Ma thought his money made him powerful, and lost

    I guess he was influenced by western moguls and thought he could get away with doing whatever he wanted.

    He forgot that he lives in a totalitarian state under a rather inhuman philosophy (Ouighurs, anyone ?).

    So he mouthed off and got slapped down. Methinks he should have known better.

    On the other hand, maybe he was genuinely trying to use his position to improve his country and its government. In which case he sacrificed himself for the greater good, but to little effect.

    So, either his ego made him think he was above the fray, or his lack of vision made him make a dreadful mistake.

    In any case, the message is clear : you do not criticize the Chinese Government when you live in China.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Looks like Ma thought his money made him powerful, and lost

      Nor criticise the Kremlin, when you live in UK city with famous cathedral tourist spot.

      Hey, I can be an anonymous coward and have an icon? Wow! Oh, not if I want to submit the post.

      1. TimMaher Silver badge
        Big Brother

        Re: Looks like Ma thought his money made him powerful, and lost

        You have not committed a post @Anonymous Comrade.

        The icon has been airbrushed out of the picture.

        1. DoctorNine

          Re: Looks like Ma thought his money made him powerful, and lost

          "And would you like some polonium on the side with that order?"

  5. Blackjack Silver badge

    Chinese Democracy is just a song

    You think you got it all locked up inside

    And if you beat them enough they'll die

    It's like a walk in a park from the cell

    Now you're keeping your own kind in hell

    When your Great Wall rocks blame yourself

    When their arms reach out for your help

    And you're out of time

  6. Mr Sceptical
    Mushroom

    You flick the tiger's nuts, you get mauled!!!

    Funny how these suddenly rich (and feeling powerful) people can seriously underestimate their corporeal vulnerability. He's clearly got a crappy security team who failed to stop him shooting himself in the face.

    Same thing happens in Russia to the oligarchs - toe the party line and you can enjoy the rewards you stole from the people, piss Putin off and you can enjoy a poison jockstrap.

    As long as they value their own flesh, shut the hell up - or better still, get an anonymous front organisation to express your true feelings as you tuck into your virtual steak in the Matrix.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Donald Trump seen taking notes, looking sideways at Jeff Bezos

    That is all

  8. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

    Stupid

    Ma was stupid to remain in China as this makes him vulnerable.

    Those Russian tycoons and pseudo-gangsters have all fled to the U.K. with their families just in case Putin decides he's had enough of them.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ma was stupid to remain in China

      I'm pretty sure he was reassured by somebody HE BELIEVED TO BE RELIABLY HIGH that if he doesn't say xyz, China's happy to support him. Unfortunately (for him), he said something that sounded a little like xyz and those who he believed to be reliably high to protect him, turn out to be way lower in the pecking order than those that decided it does, very much, sound like xyz.

      I must say, that this strategy probably works wonders, and sends a clear message: regardless of your status, you can lose it all in no time (and worse, much worse), not only for overstepping clear lines, or even getting remotely close to the lines, or even looking at the lines. This can happen when you just THINK about looking in the general direction that is opposite to where the lines are not. Think about that, citizen, think hard, and YOU make sure no harm comes your way.

      ...

      but this will ultimately fail, regardless of the general cultural or social traits (discipline), this will not work with humans on a long term basis. You can only terrorize them for so long, but the humans are... fuzzy, they need disorder to balance goosestep, they're not machines that can be programmed. They will simply not stand stable for a very long time while in a permanent frozen terror of potential "lines". If opposition is impossible, they'll go zombie-like and psychotic en masse, eventually.

      1. DoctorNine
        Coat

        Re: Ma was stupid to remain in China

        I hate it when the people I talk to are unreliably high, don't you?

      2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: They will simply not stand stable for a very long time

        Well it's been working in China longer than in the ex-Soviet Union.

        But I'm sure that, on a timescale of thousands of years, you must be right.

        Maybe.

      3. StrangerHereMyself Silver badge

        Re: Ma was stupid to remain in China

        The problem is that when you become a billionaire and start surrounding yourself with ass-kissers and ya-sayers you'll start believing you're an untouchable.

        Ma forgot that he was living in a authoritarian state where there's no rule-of-law, only the law that CCP honchos decide for themselves.

        No doubt he'll appear in court on some trumped-up charges and sentenced to 20 years of hard labor for flying too close to the Sun.

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