Re: Still. The Farage Garage will be open for business on time.
Stupid wall-o-text approach
"Not heard of any respected economists who think that brexit is a good idea - Is this doubt the same sort of doubt that there is over anthropogenic climate change?"
Interesting approach. You completely avoided responding to my economic comment. The economic situation of the EU particularly the Eurozone being terrible in practice and outcome.
# No - I didn't comment on the EU economy, because that's not relevant to the question of whether we are better off in it or of it. We are, as far as economists are concerned, better off in it.
"So which prime minister did you last have the opportunity to elect."
The labour party, who would certainly have fronted Corbyn. The Tories who would have certainly fronted Boris. Again avoiding the question. You should at least know one, maybe the controversial appointee (hint German war minister). Or even the controversial appointee (IMF head).
# Wrong - you had the opportunity to elect a local representative to parliament. Parliament then elects a PM. You don't have any more say in the bureaucracy of the UK than you do in the EU. You could easily argue that you have less, since the purely FPTP system is fundamentally broken.
"those MEPs are then our representatives"
Not allowed to propose but only to rubber stamp. Wonderful.
#Only in as far as your MP can't unilaterally stop someone being elected to PM by parliament.
"In what world do you think that a small island nation can possibly negotiate a trade deal better than the second largest trading block on the planet?"
History. Current events. Even just a bit of pondering over the demands of 27 competing countries to be squeezed into 1 trade deal. Against of course a country negotiating only for its own considerations making it much simpler and better oriented to our needs.
# History... Ah, so slavery and empire are your aims.
"Take the Japan deal - can you find one thing in it that is better than the deal we currently have"
Is it worse? Is the small island nation deal worse than the second largest trading block on the planet?
# Yes - in basically every way. The trade secretary was asked in the house to name one thing that would be better with this deal than the one we currently have and failed to name any. It's hard to check, since the deal hasn't been published.
"We already had border controls - the fact that we choose not to use them is entirely the fault of the lazy fuckers in Westminster."
Ok. Apparently we have a million more applications for 'right to remain' than expected as the estimate was almost a million less EU people in the country. Good reason for the gov to sort out the border controls instead of blaming freedom of movement.
# So basically we were even more dependant on immigrants than the government thought.
"And we wont be perfectly sovereign after we leave either"
So you move away from we are sovereign to we wont be completely isolated from the world when we leave the EU. That is a large leap away from responding to my point.
# You seemed to try to argue that sovereignty was a binary choice - its not. That was the point I was rebutting.
# In what way do we become *more* sovereign? I mean in a way that actually matters. What regulations have been forced on us against our will?
"No - we will need to export/import goods, so manufacturing will need to remain aligned with the EU anyway"
No, wrong, and so damned wrong it is the problem. We are not aligned with China but we trade with them. India, US, the freaking world. The importer sets the standard of what they accept into the country. The problem with the EU is dictating domestic standards of member countries. So no we dont need to be aligned with the EU anymore than the US or China or anywhere else in the world.
# Except that the EU makes up a *massive* proportion of our trade (as opposed to us making a tiny proportion of theirs). The point isn't that we *cant* it's that it is an additional barrier, since it's yet another set of bloody standards to try to appease. It's hard enough getting manufacturers to make a RHD car, and that's not a UK exclusive.
"The only reason to diverge from the EU standards is to lower them,"
And is that a bad thing? If something is over-regulated to the point of being used to block access to what people want then isnt that a problem?
# It's a bad thing.
# Any particular standard you think is protectionist (rather than consumer protectionist)?
"and allow processes which then require chlorination of chicken for example"
And this was one of the best examples of a poor argument to defend the EU. Originally the complaint was the chlorine except EU salad is chlorinated. So the goalposts move, and move and move. Basically first world food isnt up to the standards of the EU as a reason to remain in the EU and protect French farms.
# No - the issue has never been the chlorine, it's just that that's the easiest way to describe it. No doubt most brexiteers cling onto the first soundbite they can squeeze into their skulls and stop there. The fact that UK agriculture hasn't been well represented is the fault of MEPs, not the EU.
# Additionally - this is what you expect when you join a club... Some of the rules (like the bar openning until 1 am) don't benefit some members (those with kids who therefore have to go home earlier). On balance the benefits of being in the club outweigh the cost of keeping the bar open for an extra few hours for those people who can use it.
"The EU is a sufficiently large block that it's worth making an EU and a US version... Which will we be importing?"
I dont understand the question? If its what we want to import surely its the one we want. The one that does what we want. For example you worry about chicken but it seems you think we would prefer US chicken which is why you want the standards to stop us buying it over EU chicken.
# No we won't be importing what we want, we'll be importing whatever crap is cheapest, and sod the health implications. Chicken I buy as chicken is going to be responsibly sourced - but chicken in anything that is prepackaged or prepprepared in any way is going to be the cheapest shit they can get away with. At the moment that's force fed month old chicks, but it will be force fed, month old chicks raised in squalor with poor handling of the carcasses which are then washed with chlorine in an attempt to kill off the bacteria..
Given that the CDC reckon 16% of americans get food poisoning each year as opposed to the FSA estimate of 1% (not quite equivalent numbers) I'm fairly happy suggesting that we continue to eliminate the bacteria through other mechanisms.
"If, as I suspect, we lower our standards then we can accept either, but we won't be able to export "domestic" product to either."
If its something we are importing why do we want to export it?
# Because we import and export the same thing all the time.
# 55% of our exports were to the EU... That's a massive amount of exports to go from "free trade" to "WTO rules". Which of course wasnt was ever suggested, until very recently, when rather than an easy trade deal we'd be better off without one at all (not like India and China haven't already started legal proceedings to ensure that we follow the rules)
"So anyone with any international trade will need to comply with the higher standards of their trading partners, which makes the lowering of standards completely pointless."
No. This again goes back to the insanely wrong mistake. Domestically the exporter does not need to comply with the importers demands. Only stuff to be traded must meet the requirement.
# So you make two sets of tooling, two sets of products... the costs are twice as high and the company folds.
"Is there an EU standard which you think is particularly bad for this country?"
On the point of your chicken standard for example, the European Food Safety Agency deem it safe. The EU blocks it to protect EU farms. If it was that bad a product they wouldnt need to block it because people wouldnt buy it if they didnt want it. Thats just your example.
# You're assuming it will be well labelled, including in all products derived from it.
# You're missing the disparity between UK and US food poisoning rates
# Find a standard that you think is bad for the UK....