back to article CodeWeavers' CrossOver ran 32-bit Windows Intel binary on macOS on Arm CPU emulating x86 – and nobody died

Anyone pondering how to get Intel-based Windows apps onto shiny new Apple M1 devices have been thrown a lifebelt by CodeWeavers. CodeWeavers, noted for the tweaked version of Windows compatibility layer Wine, has run up its CrossOver product on hardware based on Apple's M1 silicon. The result will give heart to those keen to …

  1. DJV Silver badge

    I'm waiting for them to...

    ...run a 16-bit Windows 2 program on Windows 3.1, which is installed on top of DOS 6 that is running in a DOS emulator running inside the Amiga emulator, WinUAE, on a 32-bit Windows 10 install that is, itself, running on the 32-to-64 bridge in Wine/CrossOver on top of macOS Big Sur, on an ARM CPU that is emulating x86.

    Or is that a bit ambitious?

    1. Maximum Delfango Bronze badge

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      When this happens, and it will, you can be sure that SharePoint and Teams are somewhere in the middle of your list.

    2. Chewi
      Linux

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      I can't top that but I can tell you that a few months ago, I ran Windows for Workgroups 3.11 under DOSBox on a 33MHz Amiga 1200 running Gentoo Linux. It took about half an hour just to start and moving the mouse was like shifting a boulder but it really did work. Unfortunately hardly anything on Linux besides the text framebuffer supports the Amiga's weird graphics hardware so I had to run it under Xvnc and view the results remotely but it was still running on the miggy all the same!

      1. Maximum Delfango Bronze badge
        Boffin

        Re: I'm waiting for them to...

        The internet thanks you for your efforts.

    3. katrinab Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      There is a 16 bit PC emulator written in Javascript. I would guess that will run fine in Big Sur?

    4. jelabarre59 Silver badge

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      Or is that a bit ambitious?

      http://www.songlyrics.com/tom-payne/please-mr-compatibility-lyrics/

    5. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      I'd just like to see Wine actually WORK for applications I want to run and NOT have to use Windows "Ape" nor Win-10-nic to do it (the ones that scream how they won't support running on 7 any more, like stuff made by Intuit that I need at tax time)

    6. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      Well one game I rather enjoy is an 8 bit DOS based game, so I usually run in in DOSbox, but I used to run it under Wine.

      So I can see an 8 bit game running through wine through rosetta.... but by that time the CPU required is so pitiful that it matters not how many emulation layers you run it through.

    7. Binraider

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      While not that extreme, I have a fortran IV S390 program running in a DOS compatibility layer, running inside a VM, in production. I’d re-write it on a current platform but the equipment it’s needed for only has a few years left so doesn’t make financial sense to do.

      The original user manuals still quote the cost to run the program on a long defunct mainframe.

    8. Gordon 10 Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: I'm waiting for them to...

      Anyone who doesn't add OS2/Warp to the list isn't trying as far as I am concerned.

  2. karlkarl Silver badge

    I image that running Wine on the locked down (Cr)apple Chips is probably one of the only ways to provide an "open" platform these days.

    Not that the (legacy?) Windows API is fantastic but it is still basically a decent compatibility layer that abstracts over a shite underlying platform.

    1. J27 Silver badge

      No, this isn't some sort of virtualization, it doesn't have access to bare metal. You can only do whatever the user can do inside the Mac OS environment. Wine is a library that translates windows API calls to the underlying operating system (Mac OS in this case).

      Rosetta 2 dynamically recompiles x86 -> ARM. So in this case it's translating the windows application and Wine runtime library to ARM. That's pretty cool, but it's not going to get you around the limitations of the underlying OS.

      1. karlkarl Silver badge

        What I meant was In the locked down Mac OS environment they cannot do much. Download / consumer apps, the rest is very restrictive (especially will be on (cr)Apple Chips requiring signed binaries).

        At least in in a small Windows API sandbox you can install a C compiler and run most things. Wine does provide this.

        Believe it or not the binary translation is not as important as an open platform to me (which Wine kind of provides). Apple flavored ARM is fine so long as I have an ARM C compiler.

        1. ThomH Silver badge

          In macOS you can, amongst other things:

          * download and run any software you want;

          * download the development tools for free and write and run whatever you want; and

          * use the terminal plus all the standard tools to, yes, write and run whatever you want.

          Less useful things like X11 (useful on the Mac, that is) and Java may no longer be distributed directly from Apple but they remain available supposing you want them.

          So if you want your ARM C compiler on a Mac then download Xcode, or install GCC or Clang in a more traditional UNIX fashion.

          1. karlkarl Silver badge

            "So if you want your ARM C compiler on a Mac then download Xcode, or install GCC or Clang in a more traditional UNIX fashion."

            So when I build the binary and run it, it will give me an error:

            "No provisioning profile found on device. Cannot run unsigned binary".

            .... this is not what I would call an open platform.

            Are all you guys downvoting me telling me that you cannot spot this hidden DRM? Seriously, get a MacBook with a (cr)Apple Chip rather than x86* and try it. You might see what I mean when it comes to running your own software.

            1. ThomH Silver badge

              That's not what I'd call an open platform either. It's also notably completely disjoint from how macOS operates.

              When you build and run a binary on macOS it runs the binary. If you live in a conjured world of fiction it might say something about provisioning profiles, I guess. But if we're playing that game then what I don't like about Windows is that whenever I build and run a binary it will give me the error:

              "Your radiance is incoherent. Cannot dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to that radio."

              1. karlkarl Silver badge

                "When you build and run a binary on macOS it runs the binary"

                Not on (cr)Apple Chips it doesn't. I.e macOS running on "Apple Silicon" is more restrictive like (Windows RT) in that it only allows signed binaries to execute. You cannot create signed binaries unless you register your machines with Apple's DRM platform and get a provisioning profile and "developer certificate".

                1. ThomH Silver badge

                  I think you're conflating Apple's new preferences for [i]distribution[/i] of software (i.e. as distinct from local build and run — once you're into the realm of 'this binary came from the internet... are you sure about this?'), which individual machines can opt out of, with the new architecture.

                  But that also means it's possible that I'm false bucketing things, so a citation would be appreciated.

                  1. karlkarl Silver badge

                    https://mjtsai.com/blog/2020/08/19/apple-silicon-macs-to-require-signed-code/

                    https://eclecticlight.co/2020/08/22/apple-silicon-macs-will-require-signed-code/

                    "I don’t think it’s correct that the ad-hoc signing is sufficient to pass Gatekeeper, since the binary would not have a Developer ID certificate associated with it, and it would not be notarized"

                    So this is getting into the realms of Windows RT. Artificially crippled unlike on amd64 builds.

                2. Wyrdness

                  @karlkarl

                  I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've just tried the following on my Apple Silicon Air:

                  me@Air ~ % uname -a

                  Darwin Air 20.1.0 Darwin Kernel Version 20.1.0: Sat Oct 31 00:07:10 PDT 2020; root:xnu-7195.50.7~2/RELEASE_ARM64_T8101 arm64

                  me@Air ~ % gcc -Wall hello.c -o hello

                  me@Air ~ % file hello

                  hello: Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64

                  me@Air ~ % ./hello

                  Hello, world!

                  I ain't signed nuffink and it seems to compile and run "Hello World" just fine. Can you explain what you think that the problem is?

                  1. karlkarl Silver badge

                    @Wyrdness

                    Have you tried that compiled executable out on another Mac? Hidden DRM is fun like that.

                    1. Wyrdness

                      @karlkarl

                      I only have one AS Mac so can't try this. But I have disproved your assertion above that it's not possible to build and run code on AS.

                      One of the articles you linked to even states:

                      "This new behavior doesn’t change the long-established policy that our users and developers can run arbitrary code on their Macs"

                      1. karlkarl Silver badge

                        "But I have disproved your assertion above that it's not possible to build and run code on AS."

                        Not really; you have an Apple account active and as you built the binary, the DRM, licenses and certificates were generated behind the scenes. You just don't realize. DRM is sneaky like that. If you were to do a "real" test; you need to wipe your Mac, remain offline and then try building a binary. It will fail to run.

                        "Starting with Xcode 12 beta 4, the toolchain will now automatically sign your executables whenever you build from Xcode, or use command-line utilities such as clang(1) or ld(1). This new mechanism generates signatures directly at link time, and doesnʼt cover any resource other than the executable"

                        ... you fell for their trap basically.

                        So I go back to my original statement, soon running software in compatibility layers such as Wine will be the only way to simulate an "open-platform" where you can run software without satisfying DRM requirements.

                        1. ThomH Silver badge

                          > Not really; you have an Apple account active and as you built the binary, the DRM, licenses and certificates were generated behind the scenes.

                          No they weren't. Notably because:

                          > "Starting with Xcode 12 beta 4, ...

                          As he clearly stated, he didn't use Xcode.

                          The signing tool that Xcode ships with is `codesign`, and from the terminal it must be invoked explicitly. Xcode merely automates it.

                          Use `codesign -d hello` if you really insist on being so tiresome in your counterfactual assertions. You'll see: "hello: code object is not signed at all".

                          1. This post has been deleted by its author

                          2. karlkarl Silver badge

                            "As he clearly stated, he didn't use Xcode."

                            I will repeat the earlier quote:

                            "Starting with Xcode 12 beta 4, the toolchain will now automatically sign your executables whenever you build from Xcode, or use command-line utilities such as clang(1) or ld(1). This new mechanism generates signatures directly at link time, and doesnʼt cover any resource other than the executable"

                            key part being:

                            ---> "or use command-line utilities such as clang(1) or ld(1)" <----

                            Now I am assuming he is using a clang provided by Apple (usually distributed as part of Xcode command line tools)

                            Yes, this does the signing and ensures that only your mac can run it. Presumably unless you rent a development certificate to distribute the binary in a way so you can run it on other machines.

                            1. Dave 126 Silver badge

                              Hold on - you're upset because of the possibility that code you wrote on your machine won't just execute on some other person's computer unless that person has allowed it to execute?

                              That choice is up to the owner of the target machine, isn't is?

                              Or have I misunderstood you?

                              1. karlkarl Silver badge

                                @Dave 126

                                "Hold on - you're upset because of the possibility that code you wrote on your machine won't just execute on some other person's computer unless that person has allowed it to execute?"

                                My worry is that the code I wrote won't work on some other person's computer unless **Apple** has allowed it to execute.

                                So if you built a binary, sent it to me and I wanted to execute it on my machine. I would not be able to unless you had rented a developer certificate from Apple. This is what I mean by not an open platform. Apple is the central authority. Apple is completely in control.

                                For example, just like iOS. No matter how much I would want to run your program, and no matter how much you want me to run your program, we would be out of luck unless we beg Apple to be so gracious as to allow us to run our own software.

                                1. Dan 55 Silver badge
                                  Devil

                                  Quite something the amount of people who believe MacOS on ARM is as open as MacOS on Intel.

                                  Rosetta 2 allows unsigned Intel binary execution but unsigned ARM binaries cannot be compiled on one machine and run on another, you need an Apple distribution certificate.

                                  Goodbye having an open source project and compiling release binaries for github or for homebrew or similar.

                                  1. karlkarl Silver badge

                                    "Rosetta 2 allows unsigned Intel binary execution but unsigned ARM binaries cannot be compiled on one machine and run on another, you need an Apple distribution certificate."

                                    The worst thing is that these guys don't understand this. I have been trying to explain it to them for the last couple of days on these forums but they just don't get it. Looking at the amount of down votes I have received, it is painful how naive so many people are.

                                    This is how companies like Apple weasel their way in. Through the sheer ignorance of people who shouldn't be near a computer, let alone on the internet.

                                    1. gotes

                                      Perhaps people would take you more seriously if you didn't repeatedly use childish names like "(Cr)Apple".

                                      1. karlkarl Silver badge

                                        Hmm,

                                        "Crapple Chips" is a much more descriptive name than "Apple Silicon" though. Especially since it wouldn't be completely unthinkable for Apple to branch into breast implants and dildos in the near future.

                                        1. Steve K Silver badge
                                          Headmaster

                                          Pedantic

                                          If we are playing at being pedantic then it would be silicone and not silicon, unless you have certain (as yet) undisclosed fetishes.......

                                    2. mankymanningBS

                                      I still don't quite understand this though. The mechanism is to detect whether code has been tampered with. You do not need a developer account to sign anything and can basically sign yourself with blank details. Another person could re-sign the code themselves if they wanted to as well. In what way would or could Apple prevent this code from being run?

                                      As for not being able to download code from GitHub and compiling it - that isn't the case. It will simply create and sign the code with an ad-hoc signature during compile time.

                                      Also how does this differ from say Microsoft or Apple preventing programs from running which have been flagged by Defender/XProtect.

                                      1. karlkarl Silver badge

                                        @mankymanningBS,

                                        If you compile me a simple hello, world executable for AppleARM and send it to me via email, if I tried to run it, I wouldn't be able to. No matter how hard I tried. The OS will tell me I cannot. Just like on the crippled Windows RT platform.

                                        This differs from standard Windows and other "open" platforms by the fact if you compile me a simple hello, world executable for ARM (or x86) and send it to me via email, if I tried to run it, I would be able to. Frankly since Windows Defender and XProtect are only concerned with detecting cracks and pirate software, they wouldn't even alert me when launching your software.

                                        This has very little to do with Defender and things like that, and more to do with signing certificates as seen on consumer iPhones, forcing users to access software from Apple's central app store and not correctly through the 3rd party vendors official website.

                                        For example, with this in place, it would be impossible to deploy your software to an offline ARM-based Mac for example. Making this whole ecosystem unsuitable for professional or corporate computing.

                                      2. Dan 55 Silver badge

                                        Nobody's talking about compiling code from github. This is about distributing binaries, e.g. in github, homebrew or however way you see fit (your own storefront, as unfashionable as that is these days). You might think it's reasonable to compile everything from scratch, but for many people that is not reasonable.

                                        Your ARM binary's ad-hoc certificate generated by Apple's linker is only valid on your computer so you can't distribute the compiled ARM binary to anyone else as it won't run on their computers.

                                        XProtect doesn't matter, that checks that a binary has not been flagged as malware by Apple, but that happens later on in the launching process, only after the ARM binary's certificate has been accepted by the computer.

                                        1. karlkarl Silver badge

                                          Yep, this will bite them in the butt when they realize they cannot download and run open-source software like Blender, Gimp, LibreOffice, etc, etc because those binaries have not been signed by their own personal certificate.

                                          And then they will turn around and blame those projects for "not supporting Apple Chips" when really they just don't support Apple's fscking criminal DRM strategy.

                            2. katrinab Silver badge

                              gcc is not clang. You would use cc for that.

              2. overunder Silver badge

                "Cannot dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to that radio."

                But otherwise, Windows makes music to your ears...?

  3. Victor Ludorum
    Big Brother

    How long before Apple stop this

    Shirley it's only a matter of time before Apple put a stop to this 'unofficial' emulation malarkey. I mean, they don't want people running any old non-approved code on their devices do they...?

    1. chivo243 Silver badge

      Re: How long before Apple stop this

      Until they find a way to monetize it, or monetize the legal side of it.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: How long before Apple stop this

        Apple's happy with it. When asked about Windows on M1 Macs,

        Federighi pointed to Windows in the cloud as a possible solution and mentioned CrossOver, which is capable of "running both 32- and 64-bit x86 Windows binaries under a sort of WINE-like emulation layer on these systems."

        - Arstechnica

    2. DS999

      Re: How long before Apple stop this

      That's on iOS, they have never had a problem with this on the Mac. Especially since if this, if it works for the most popular Windows apps, will help smooth the way for all of the Mac userbase to migrate to ARM rather than having some holdouts who have to be able to run some Windows stuff.

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: How long before Apple stop this

        >Especially since ...if it works for the most popular Windows apps, will help smooth the way for all of the Mac userbase to migrate to ARM...

        So does this mean CodeWeavers could be receiving some rather expensive handcuffs to become a part of Apple?

        1. DS999

          Re: How long before Apple stop this

          Supporting a third party OS is exactly the sort of thing Apple would want a third party developer to be doing. If Apple wanted to do it themselves, they would have developed or acquired the technology to do this already.

        2. A random security guy Bronze badge

          Re: How long before Apple stop this

          Why? Apple wants as many apps to run on their platform. And they do benefit from the open source community. They can’t possibly close off things like Python and other environments. I can run any binary I want. It just makes me give explicit permission before running unsigned binaries.

    3. Victor Ludorum
      Joke

      Re: How long before Apple stop this

      Wow, thanks for all the downvotes! I obviously used the wrong icon. ===>

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: How long before Apple stop this

        Sadly Victor, people have had a few years of reality being stranger than satire, so much as we might wish it, satire can't work the same way anymore. Posts that once would have been seen as the jokes they self evidently were now, against a backdrop of heated lunacy, can be too easily confused for earnest opinions. With no fault on the part of the reader.

        It's important to note too that 'Aw, cmon, I was just joking!' is tactic that has been used by some agitators to evade serious debate about whatever their previous statement was. I'm not saying that was what you were up to, but there wasn't enough context to show that wasn't what you were up to.

        1. Victor Ludorum

          Re: How long before Apple stop this

          The big brother icon I originally used must have been too subtle.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My new M1 laptop is in order now....

    I ordered one of the M1 Macbook Air's and a new M1 Mini yesterday.

    The case for the Air arrives tomorrow as does the spare PSU and cables. Sadly the Air arrives Dec 9th to 16th and the Mini 16th to 23rd Dec. I am assuming thats 2020 but it's not stated. These will replace two 8GB laptops that have served since 2012 and 2013 respectively. Whilst Apple products do have a high price, my Macbook Pro has done seven years of service and was used until lockdown 8-10 hours a day 5-6 days per week for seven years. A rough calculation is 16,000 hours of usage. I recall it cost me £1,800 at the time, so thats 10p an hour to use. That's more than I thought.

    I'm kinda excited seeing how fast this is and how many emulations I can run on the Air, for the first time in my life I haven't gone for the maxed out Pro version. The fact it seems to run so fast with no fan is great.

    1. AMBxx Silver badge

      Re: My new M1 laptop is in order now....

      Lend us a fiver!

    2. Oh Matron! Silver badge

      Re: My new M1 laptop is in order now....

      Currently in my cannon I have a 2012 Mac Mini, 2014 Mac Mini and 2012 iMac 27"

      All still providing fantastic service (the 2012 Mac Mini runs Server 2012 on VMWare)

      The 2014 Mac Mini was managing to run both a windows 10 VM and MacOS with just 4GB of RAM, albeit very slowly :-)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: My new M1 laptop is in order now....

        I can only speak from personal experience: My 2010 Macbook Pro has only finally been put out to pasture in these last few months after 'acquiring' some random reboot issues. Possibly the hardware finally giving up the ghost. I (ab)used it *very* heavy for it's first four years, then it was a shared/family machine and latterly my youngest used it as their exclusive machine. A decade of proper use isn't bad going, cost-wise. I think that works out at about a thruppence-ha'penny per hour of use. My 2014 (also caned for four years) is now in the hands of Daughter One and is still going great guns and I've spend the last two and almost-a-half years carrying around and beating the crap out of a 2018 on a daily basis. So far, so good - maybe I've just been lucky but I can't really complain. Meanwhile, my eldest son's expensive Windows gaming laptop was demoted within a couple of years, and at work the oldest machines (5-7 years) boot and run so slowly they have literally become unusable unless people are completely desperate (and have a lot of time on their hands). I'm also having to nursemaid three-year old Windows laptops because they were 'cost effective' (mid-range spec) to purchase at the time :-( ...

        And I do actually rather like Windows 10... I have no objection to it, just to the shitty hardware (and lack of ongoing software or driver support) that most vendors foist on people at prices people think are sensible to pay. As they say, you pays your money...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: My new M1 laptop is in order now....

      You obviously got in early; I ordered a 16gb Mini yesterday and it'll be at least the 21st of December before I see anything.

      I could have an 8gb model today if I wanted one, and could be bothered walking to an Apple Store. But I don't and I can't.

      1. mankymanningBS

        Re: My new M1 laptop is in order now....

        I got an 8GB Air as I didn't want to sink too much into these and will probably get itchy feet and want to move in a couple of years anyway. It's rather remarkable how well these run with 'only' 8GB of RAM.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is being viewed (TenFourFoxG5) and typed on a G5. (Only my Sun kit lasts longer.) I will wait a bit before buying an M1 Mini, though.

  6. trevorde Silver badge
    Trollface

    Goes to show

    the only decent software has only ever been on Windows

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Goes to show

      No, Descent was available on PPC MacOS too, as well as Intel DOS

      (Our school only had one CD of Descent, so it had to passed around the room before an eight player death match could commence)

  7. TeeCee Gold badge
    Coat

    Somebody's got to say it...

    Does it run Crysis?

  8. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Re: the Good News

    Does such herald an Operating Systems Singularity at ITs Work, Rest and Play?!

  9. katrinab Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Wine is a nice idea in theory, but if you look at what actually runs reliably on it, you can generally find better native alternatives.

    For example, you can run an ancient version of MS Office (2003 or older), except for Access. While there may be features of Office that LibreOffice doesn't provide, they tend to be in newer versions than that.

    1. Robert Grant Silver badge

      There are a zillion LoB apps that could benefit from this...somehow :)

  10. StrangerHereMyself

    But they didn't get anywhere either

    They're probably still waiting for it to start up.

  11. Sparkus

    VirtualBox

    Parallels and BootCamp are always mentioned.

    Don't forget VirtualBox.

  12. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Yes and no, and ARM chromebook

    Yes and no -- yes you do have this kind of DRM on the Mac, the fanbois saying they don't... I don't know why they're saying this. I have a MacOS VM, and it sure does have some DRM involved (signed binaries). That said... it's not like on some stock iphone or something where it's fully blocked. You can download an unsigned app, double click on it, it will not run, it says it's not signed and does not let you run it from that dialog box. But right click on the app and pick "open", then it gives a mild warning about it being unsigned and you can go ahead and install and run. (My guess is that this is stuck into the macos GUI and does not apply at all to UNIX-style running homebrew etc. to add UNIX apps to the system.)

    Regarding CrossOver wine, the reason it's not 64-bit windows intel binaries running is (per Wine FAQ) due to an ABI incompatibility; windows guarantees some particular 64-bit register is not overwritten, macos does not make this guarantee so any app that assumes this register will not be clobbered will not work.

    Interestingly, on this Chromebook I used (Acer Chromebook 13, a Nvidia Tegra K1 -- 2.1ghz quad-core ARM + 1 low-power core, and video about equal to a GTX 650, including working CUDA.) I threw Ubuntu onto that off an SDCard (16.04, but I got it upgraded to 18.04 with working nvidia drivers and CUDA still by holding back kernel and about a dozen interlocking xorg packages). Under qemu, you could actually run 32-bit and 64-bit Windows apps -- I installed qemu-static-x86-64, added i386 and x86-64 architectures for ubuntu packages, installed wine and it pulled in all the i386 (for 32-bit windows apps) and amd64 libs and stuff, installed it, and I could run some Windows apps -- both 32-bit and 64-bit, but the problem being only single-threaded apps -- due to ARM having weaker memory consistency than x86-64 and qemu not dealing with it at least then, multi-threaded apps did not work at all. Also ran a (binary-only .deb) driver for this canon printer that worked a treat through it (spent about 2-3 seconds CPU time per page, but that's way faster than the printer anyway), and had android devleopment toolkit running (mostly java, but the x86-64 helper apps it runs during builds and stuff worked fine, these miscellaneous apps only added about 5-10 seconds to a 10 minute build process for a rather chunky app.)

  13. xyz123

    Why not just give up on the whole Apple thing. Their integrated GPU is HALF the speed of a 980ti. (which itself is old and sells for around £40 now). Soldered down components so it's impossible to upgrade. An OS thats somehow survived from 2012 with bugs and exploits intact.

    AND bonus points for it costing 3-4x as much as an equivalent PC. Which runs 100s of thousands of pieces of software that the mac can't.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      F*ck off about the outdated "3-4x" price hike bollocks (which wasn't even true back in the 20th Century). It's 2020.

      MacBook Pro 2020, 13", Apple M1 8-core CPU, 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD

      Geekbench 5: 1747 Single-Core; 7489 Multi-Core

      Price: £1299 inc VAT

      Dell XPS 13, 11th Gen Intel 4-core i5-1135G7 CPU, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSD

      Geekbench 5: 1308 Single-Core; 4984 Multi-core

      Price: £1249 inc VAT

      I'll take the £50 hit and the smaller drive for that performance hike any day.

      macOS runs Office, Adobe CC, VS Code, a full web development stack (better than Windows does), Chrome, Firefox, VPN apps, Zoom, Teams, *nix code and all the other important stuff 'most' people need. Who needs an app pool full of thousands legacy and outdated apps that no-one (bar cash-and-time-strapped old businesses) runs any more?

      Time to grow up and ditch the shitty comments. We can all play that game and it's boring now. Move on.

      A/C (because you're just going to argue, aren't you?)

      1. Updraft102

        I realize you were debunking the idea that Macs are more expensive than similar PCs, but there's a lot more behind those listed prices that differs other than the SSD size.

        The Macbook Pro has non-removable SSD and RAM. SSDs are consumable items, and while the life they have is much longer than people think, it still makes the Macbook Pro a disposable computer that costs in excess of a thousand pounds. I wouldn't even consider such an item unless it was bargain-basement cheap, which the MBP is not.

        As far as the RAM and SSD sizes, 8 and 256 are fine to start, but not if that's going to be the final tally. The smallest amount of SSD storage on any of my laptops is 1 TB, and that's feeling a bit cramped lately (thinking of upgrading again).

        The bit about the RAM being soldered is an issue in the XPS 13 too, but in the x86 market, I have tons more choices with the same or very similar specs, and at the same or very similar price point. You don't get that with Apple.

        Ifixit's most recent score for the Dell XPS 13 was 7 out of 10, while the most recent Macbook Pro 13 scored all of a 2. That may have changed, but for now, those are the most recent numbers. On top of that, you can get parts for a Dell, but Apple does all it can to make sure you can't get them for their products, and if you go aftermarket, they could release a firmware upgrade that breaks your expensive disposable device down the road. They've done it before, and even though that was on their other platform (iOS), it demonstrates that the company thinks bricking your hardware because you dared repair your product with unapproved parts (when they refuse to sell you the approved parts) is okay.

        The new M1 is very impressive, but as long as it's only available in Apple machines, it's a whole lot less appealing. We will have to see how the other CPU makers respond. Super wide decode and execution unit architectures aren't in any way restricted to Apple, though I would not be surprised if they tried to claim otherwise, given their history of thinking they owned the entire market for any product they introduce, whether that be GUIs or smartphones in general or even the concept of rounded corners on a device that's to be carried in a pocket.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Battery life ...

          I have the "Early 2015" 11" i7 8GB MBA which was the last model and top of the line of the original MBA 11" series. It has been used and abused almost constantly since purchase.

          The only thing that has actually failed is the OWC 960GB SSD I put in it (twice!) and I have just put a Transcend 850 (960GB) SSD in it which is considerably faster on benchmarks and I hope will last until the machine is EoL in about another 5 years.

          The battery is now at 52% (!) of design capacity and the cycle count just past 750, so it looks like I'll soon be biting the bullet for a new battery.

          This machine has replaceable SSD and WiFi cards.

          Personally, it's the best laptop I have owned. I have no idea how much I paid, but I don't regret it for a second.

      2. David Lawton

        and the Mac will also have better battery life, better trackpad, better speakers, better microphone and have a higher re-sale value.

        While it might be a hard pill to swallow, a Mac with the M1 is actually the best value laptop.

    2. mankymanningBS

      Not sure where you got the half speed of 950 from. - it is trading blows with the discrete GTX 1050 and is an integrated solution. source: https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/apples-m1-chip-can-apparently-outperform-some-amd-and-nvidia-graphics-cards

  14. razorfishsl Silver badge

    Just "jumping on the band wagon"

    There are a MULTITUDE of programs that wont run under whine in the best case

    many of those that do have maybe 70-90 % functionality.

    There are rumors that "hello world" program can run with 100% compatibility....

    but it has yet to be proved.

    1. Bill Gray

      Situations vary.

      I have a fair bit of old C++ code using MFC (yeah, I know, but it's stuff I wrote yestercentury). Most of it has run in Wine without issues. In a few cases, I had to tweak a few lines of code (usually, a situation where there really _was_ a bug, and it just happened to go unnoticed in "real" Windows). So people were able to run my software on Linux and OS/X without my really having to do very much work.

      Admittedly, that was a situation where I had the source code, and actually porting it to Linux and/or Mac would have been a major undertaking. In such cases, Wine is definitely worth trying.

      More generally, it's still worth trying, but you are correct that success will not be guaranteed. I don't have a statistical universe of data, but it _seems_ to me that Wine works better with older programs, perhaps because the Wine team has had more time to reverse-engineer the peculiarities of older version of Windows. Such older programs are exactly the ones where you're most likely to need Wine: programs for which support has vanished and where you can't run them on Win10.

  15. thondwe

    A lot of effort for why?

    SO you order a new shiny M1 - chances are you're replacing an old Intel machine - Apple or otherwise? So keep it to run the Windows stuff naively via RDP/Teamviewer/...?? How many people-hours are put into developing this - for what?

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    interested

    to see what kind of performance we'll get on this.

    Not that it really matters a lot, since we are all running very old apps and just need the job done, slowly of fastly.

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