back to article Brexit border-line issues: Would you want to still be 'testing' software designed to stop Kent becoming a massive lorry park come 31 December?

As the year-end Brexit transition deadline looms, the government risks having to introduce software designed to help keep 10,000 trucks crossing the English Channel each day without testing it first, according to industry associations. Whether or not the UK manages to strike a trade deal with the EU by 31 December – when the …

  1. alain williams Silver badge

    Not a problem at all ...

    As all government ministers know: us IT people are magic, so a small amount of programmer pixie dust sprinkled on a vague agreement on 31 Dec will result in a well polished & documented system that can be tested against on 1st October. It might need a bit of help from the driver of that blue box in the BBC documentary.

    1. Lon24

      Re: Not a problem at all ...

      Not really necessary. Behind the sofa is an almost unused world beating app. It managed to cross (almost) to the Isle of Wight so crossing the channel will be a pushover.

      Maybe tweek the name to 'Track without Trace' it will alert all android equipped lorry drivers when they come with 5 metres of another lorry. Well two weeks down the the road or 10 metres along the M20 lorry park.

      If you just keep the front end and dispatch all collected data to /dev/null then that should speed up comms and capacity and be about as much use as Chris Grayling.

    2. macjules Silver badge

      Re: Not a problem at all ...

      DExEU’s is an anagram of Deus Ex but is missing the last bit 'machina'. A bit like the UK's post-Brexit transport policy.

    3. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: Not a problem at all ...

      As all government ministers know: us IT people are magic, so a small amount of programmer pixie dust sprinkled on a vague agreement on 31 Dec will result in a well polished & documented system that can be tested against on 1st October.

      I'm a bit puzzled by this. So the EU consists of 27 countries. The rest of the world, somewhat more, many of which have been happily trading with the EU for a few decades. Much of that trade arrives in EU-land in containers, some even with lorries attached to those. Some even gets shipped from mostly English speaking countries.

      So this being the 21st Century, presumably software capable of meeting the EU's paperwork already exists, and presumably can import tariff data from EU systems.. After all, given the volume of imports, surely the EU provides tools and support to meet their bureaucratic requirements. After all, logistics was one of the earliest business sectors to adopt computers. OK, a lot might be proprietary, but surely there's some COTS packages out there already..

      1. Lars Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: Not a problem at all ...

        "but surely there's some COTS packages out there already..".

        Yes sure but do you expect the government to look for any such help and besides the problem is about the time running out for having it up and running properly.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: Not a problem at all ...

          Yes sure but do you expect the government to look for any such help and besides the problem is about the time running out for having it up and running properly.

          I'm not sure where the problem lies. UK imports/exports from/to non-EU countries, so presumably HMRC has systems to do paperwork for those. Much the same with UK logistics companies. So figuring exporting into the EU means using whatever paperwork & processes the EU requires, which have been in operation at the EU's borders for many years. From EU into UK I guess means importers needing to meet HMRC's requirements.

          Unknowns seem to be stuff like duties payable in either direction, but the EU, UK and WTO publish tariff data & tables that presumably get imported into logistics systems. I'm thinking places like Harwich/Felixstowe that are large UK ports, and points of entry into both the UK & onward into the EU.

          1. Smooth Newt Silver badge
            Happy

            Re: Not a problem at all ...

            I'm not sure where the problem lies.

            The problem lies in that there has been completely free trade between the UK and its largest trading partner for nearly 30 years, and businesses have evolved to thrive in that ecosystem. It is coming to an abrupt halt in less four months time, and there is no time to hire and train people, to rejig all these companies to handle these processes and so-on.

            It's a bit like me telling you that the citizens of your street have decided that there is going to be a hard border between your street and the rest of the country and you will now have to fill in declarations, pay customs duty and submit to inspections every time you go shopping. It shouldn't be a problem, since HMRC has systems to handle their end of things, and you can always copy whatever UK logistics companies do.

            I expect you would probably point out the amount of time, cost and effort involved in all this, along with some comments about your inexperience in identifying the correct phyto-sanitary documentation needed your your week's groceries.

            1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

              Re: Not a problem at all ...

              It is coming to an abrupt halt in less four months time, and there is no time to hire and train people, to rejig all these companies to handle these processes and so-on.

              It's been over 3 years since the vote..

              ...and you will now have to fill in declarations, pay customs duty and submit to inspections every time you go shopping.

              So I produce widgets. I ship those to the EU. I can look up the widget's TARIC code and check with the EU's ECIP system that I've got the right paperwork, which is then included with the waybill package. Whether the boxes of widgets are then inspected is up to the relevant border agencies.. Some internal stuff already is, some external stuff isn't. Largely due to that thing called smuggling, or just the sheer volume of goods traded between nations.

              As for duty, the EU changed the rules a while ago on VAT making that more complicated for SMEs. If they've adapted to that, it's an incremental step to print out a customs declaration. Plus of course one of the sticking points in 'negotiations' is a desire for a free-trade agreement. If that happens, then there's less paperwork, ie if there are no tariffs. And again the challenge is greatest for any business that exclusively deals with the EU. If they're already trading with the ROW, they'll already need the correct paperwork for their trading partner(s).

              ...in identifying the correct phyto-sanitary documentation needed your your week's groceries.

              Much of which already exists, ie if UK produce meets EU standards now, it'll meet them on 1st January. And some of that documentation is already required on account of trying to limit the spread of animal/plant based diseases, or invasive species.

              1. Smooth Newt Silver badge
                Happy

                Re: Not a problem at all ...

                It's been over 3 years since the vote..

                How does that help? Do you think all those businesses can just jump in their Tardises and go back to 2016, and then start recruiting and training customs agents and raising the money to buy extra capacity to compensate for all those vehicles and drivers stuck in customs queues etc. Maybe the Government could get one too, and send someone back in time to put out a tender for the Smart Freight Service?

                So I produce widgets. I ship those to the EU.

                You are happily in the simplest conceivable situation, where you manufacture and export a single product. Do you think everyone does that?

                While we are talking about manufacturing, what is the duty on hypothetical widgets that the EU is now going to start charging you that they didn't before? How does that affect sales in the EU, especially with all the competition from EU-based manufacturers who don't have to pay this duty?

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  Re: Not a problem at all ...

                  You are happily in the simplest conceivable situation, where you manufacture and export a single product. Do you think everyone does that?

                  Nope. I'm sure there are many manufacturers who don't know what they're producing. Me, I run Heisenberg's Widgets, so just print multiple declarations based on the probability of what'll be in the box once it's opened.

                  Otherwise, companies should know what they're producing and shipping, and it's a legal requirement for the EU to publish accurate tariff information. Often in helpful categories. Like cars. It's a car, therefore tariff is X. It's a box of car parts, so duty is Y.

                  While we are talking about manufacturing, what is the duty on hypothetical widgets that the EU is now going to start charging you that they didn't before?

                  Who knows? But what is known is customs declarations are already needed to ship to non-EU countries, of which there are many. Some may negotiate FTA's with the UK, in which case duty may not be applicable. But again it's been 3yrs, with the possibility of 'crashing out' of the EU, and trading on WTO terms.. And of course those tariffs have been published since the WTO sprang into existence.. Along with rules like MFN, where the applicable tariff is usually the lowest published by the EU. Unless of course the EU's planning to sanction the UK..

                  How does that affect sales in the EU, especially with all the competition from EU-based manufacturers who don't have to pay this duty?

                  Well, one of the sticking points in the Brexit Exit is the EU's demand for a 'level playing field'. Which means the UK shouldn't be unduly punished, and UK producers should be able to compete on roughly equivalent terms. Or maybe the trade deals the UK's been working on, so it'll be more profitable to trade with non-EU nations where we've agreed an FTA. Then along those lines, if the UK... disagrees with the 'level playing field', then we may be able to implement some 'protectionist' policies to support UK industry. Which is kinda what the EU's afraid of, ie the UK will no longer be burdened by their bureaucracy.

                  But no, the sky is falling. We'll wake up on New Years day to find barriers have risen from the seas around the UK, and there'll be a run on brie & camenbert. Luckily Somerset dairy farmers make some nice ones, so just buy those instead of French stuff. After all, under WTO terms, products from the EU will be taxed as well.. Kinda why EU producers are also keen on a deal given the UK is a large export market for them.

                  1. sed gawk Silver badge

                    Re: Not a problem at all ...

                    and there'll be a run on brie & camenbert. Luckily Somerset dairy farmers make some nice ones, so just buy those instead of French stuff.

                    So let them eat cheese then.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Not a problem at all ...

                A brexitter doesn't get it. No surprise there. Why not just tell the experts your solution?

                Or, perhaps you should get your unicorns to sort out the whole freight thing..

        2. Observer!

          Re: Not a problem at all ...

          Yup there is COTS - here is the sequence:

          1) Finalize the trade agreement

          2) Codify tariffs and rules into COTS

          3) Test

          Nothing happens until step 1 is complete.

      2. Fr. Ted Crilly
        Alert

        Re: Not a problem at all ...

        Well, yes a bit. BUT that would mean proper cooperation with that EU and that would never do. You'd best keep your sensible thoughts to yourself, they be dangerous.... ;-)

      3. arctic_haze

        Re: Not a problem at all ...

        "I'm a bit puzzled by this. So the EU consists of 27 countries. The rest of the world, somewhat more, many of which have been happily trading with the EU for a few decades. Much of that trade arrives in EU-land in containers, some even with lorries attached to those. Some even gets shipped from mostly English speaking countries."

        Most of the countries you can reach with a lorry from the EU are either in the EFTA (like Norway and Switzerland), are associated (like Ukraine) or have a free trade agreement (like Turkey). So the UK will need to import its app from Russia or Belarus. It may have some problems with the Cyrillic, though.

      4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "presumably software capable of meeting the EU's paperwork already exists"

        Probably.

        But it hasn't been lovingly crafted to a shedload of bo***ks requirements that every senior civil servant in HMG has had a finger in.

        The looooong history of HMG systems is OTS is never good enough. "Oh no, nooooo one does it like we do it at the Min of whatever. We're speeeeecial"

        As in needs, not exceptional performance.

      5. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Not a problem at all ...

        Just because something isn't difficult doesn't mean the UK Government can't screw it up, run over budget or not have it ready when needed (see COVID-19 Track & Trace, NHS National Program for IT etc). Still if it works for Northern Ireland (complexity) and scales to cope with Dover (capacity) then the main hurdles will have been cleared.

        I'm going to sit in the laughing and pointing corner til that happens.

      6. rtfazeberdee

        Re: Not a problem at all ...

        there was hardly any documentation needed to trade with the EU under the current deal. No deal mean an estimated increase of about 200m new declarations to be filled in accurately (or get stopped at the border) - thats the price of being an outsider to the EU with no deal i.e. WTO rules.

      7. Stuart Castle Silver badge

        Re: Not a problem at all ...

        Re: OK, a lot might be proprietary, but surely there's some COTS packages out there already..

        While I suspect you are right in that there are systems that can be purchased almost off the shelf, and all customs systems operate on basically the same principles, there are massive differences between different systems that likely need massive changes to existing software. Those changes take time, and need testing, which also takes time.

  2. tiggity Silver badge

    Stockpile your popcorn

    .. and whatever else you may want

    Place your bets that there will be some hassles & it will all end in tears

    1. Throatwarbler Mangrove Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Stockpile your popcorn

      Typical Marxist socialist libtard beta cuck NPC Remoaner talk, just wanting Brexit to fail to make the Leavers and Bojo look bad instead of reflecting the brilliant triumph of conservative dogma, the rigorous honesty of the Leave campaign, and the absolute unanimous and unchangeable will of the English people.

      1. HildyJ Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

        Not to mention the EU conspiracy to undermine Britain by offering to extend the deadline.

      2. botski@comcast.net

        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

        Don't forget to thank Putin for Brexit. He's also doing a swell job over here helping Trump get reelected.

      3. vistisen

        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

        OK, I'll look stupid, is this Sarcasm or do you also believe that Trump is sent by God to rescue the USA. Because in that case I have a few unicirn horns to sell you at rock bottom prices

    2. nematoad Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Stockpile your popcorn

      Two thoughts crossed my mind when reading this piece.

      1) Government + It Project. Yes of course it will be alright on the night, we have the Minister's word for that.

      2) Be careful what you wish for, it might come true. As far as the Brexit supporting faction in the country that is just about to hit them.

      This mess is far too serious to say " I told you so" or getting out the popcorn, if we are able to get any of course. We will have to live with the consequences for many years to come. It may be that I will never see the UK rejoining the EU and that does nothing for my peace of mind or blood pressure.

      Folks, the shit is about to hit the fan and I'm glad that being retired I am in some ways shielded from the effects but I do fear for the younger people.

      It's not as if we have nothing else to worry about now, is it Minister?

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

        Coronavirus has dealt them a get out of jail card. Whatever goes wrong can be blamed on that, not Brexit.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Stockpile your popcorn

          Including the lorry parks?

          1. Rich 11 Silver badge

            Re: Stockpile your popcorn

            What's that you say, Boris? The virus can park lorries now?

        2. whileI'mhere

          Re: Stockpile your popcorn

          "Coronavirus has dealt them a get out of jail card."

          They can blame who they like but when there is physical violence at empty supermarkets, blaming the EU will not get them off the hook.

          1. Snar

            Re: Stockpile your popcorn

            Brexit street parties aplenty.

            Can't wait to see the idiots who voted for this mess starving and on the streets bleating about the "good old days" - 2015.

            1. cyberdemon
              Alert

              Re: Stockpile your popcorn

              Those idiots will be breaking down your door as soon as the power goes off, to eat the contents of your cupboard and steal your dog. Or maybe the other way round.

              They certainly won't be blaming themselves and bleating about the good old days of 2015. They'll be blaming the liberal elite, just like in Trumpland, because of something they read/saw/heard on Facebook.

              If I were working in the Kremlin, I would report to Mr. Putin that everything seems to be proceeding to plan, despite minimal efforts - the British just seem to be incredibly good at shooting themselves in the foot.

          2. Cederic Silver badge

            Re: Stockpile your popcorn

            That'd be the empty supermarkets we had the day after the referendum? The ones the day after we signed the withdrawal agreement? The ones the day after the withdrawal agreement came into effect?

            Please, this fearmongering was utter nonsense halfway through 2016. You really should have moved on by now.

            1. reubs007

              Re: Stockpile your popcorn

              The trading arrangements do not change until 1st January. The trading arrangements do not change until 1st January. The trading arrangements do not change until 1st January. Am I getting through to yet?

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                @reubs007

                Is that our new deadline for the apocalypse? I dont know about Cederic but I have been looking forward to the remainers giving us a new date for the recession. After the last 2 flew by without event I was getting worried the idiots got wise and stopped giving us the date of doomsday.

                1. reubs007

                  Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                  Yawn. I still cling to the vague hope that we can have a debate based on facts and reason, especially since this is an IT publication. More fool me. Blah, blah, blah, £350mn a week for the NHS, Take Back Control, Get Brexit Done. Moronic slogans are no substitute for the complex, detailed work involved in moving to new trading arrangements.

                  1. Cederic Silver badge

                    Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                    Moronic slogans like "when there is physical violence at empty supermarkets"?

                    Fact: the UK can import all the food it needs from sources other than the EU.

                    Fact: the UK can trade with the EU on January 2nd whether a trade deal is agreed or not

                    Reason: Agreeing or failing to agree a trade deal with the EU is entirely irrelevant to British food supply. The supermarket shelves will not be empty.

                    So sorry for bringing intelligence into the conversation.

                    1. reubs007

                      Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                      30% of the UK’s food supply comes from the EU. 11% comes from non-EU countries. Is your plan to quadruple the supply of food from non-EU countries overnight?

                      None of this food could travel through EU countries without reams of paperwork, checks and delays. Shipping food from places like Argentina obviously takes a while.

                      I assume therefore we are talking about a constant stream of planes bringing millions of tons of food into the UK from non-EU countries? Who is going to pay for all this?

                      We have literally just seen supermarket shelves emptied by panic buying and this was when there were no supply constraints.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                        @reubs007

                        "30% of the UK’s food supply comes from the EU. 11% comes from non-EU countries. Is your plan to quadruple the supply of food from non-EU countries overnight?"

                        Yes if needed. It is pretty daft to state we buy so much from within the protectionist block because the reason we buy there is the protectionist block. There is a world market and its not overnight changing supplies but prepared for the known brexit. The outcome being an expected reduction in food prices as we are no longer in the protectionist block.

                        "None of this food could travel through EU countries without reams of paperwork, checks and delays. Shipping food from places like Argentina obviously takes a while."

                        A while like we know its coming so order stuff to arrive as we have normally done so far? Argentina not being in the EU so not much of an issue there? If the EU bogs its economy down with paperwork thats gonna hurt them, but with an entire world market that exists already we will be fine. Its not a sudden change, its one coming for years now.

                        "I assume therefore we are talking about a constant stream of planes bringing millions of tons of food into the UK from non-EU countries? Who is going to pay for all this?"

                        Probably shipping I would expect for a lot of it but probably air freight too. And its nothing new so nothing new. What do you mean who will pay for what?

                        "We have literally just seen supermarket shelves emptied by panic buying and this was when there were no supply constraints."

                        A temporary panic buy where items couldnt get from storage to store faster than it left the shelves and solved in a couple of weeks of such constant pressure. Amusingly corner shops seemingly stocked while stores raided. Yet not a problem and solved quickly. From an unexpected and actually swift changing issue (instead of dragging on for years)

                      2. Cederic Silver badge

                        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                        30% of the UK’s food supply comes from the EU. 11% comes from non-EU countries. Is your plan to quadruple the supply of food from non-EU countries overnight?

                        Let's do some simple arithmetic.

                        4% of food consumed in the UK is from North America.

                        4% of food consumed in the UK is from South America.

                        4% of food consumed in the UK is from Africa.

                        4% of food consumed in the UK is from Asia.

                        2% of food consumed in the UK is from European nations that aren't in the EU.

                        1% of food consumed in the UK is from Australia and New Zealand.

                        That adds up to 19%, not 11%.

                        Now factor in that if the EU stops selling food to us, we'll stop selling food to them. Since they sell us around 40bn euros of food each year and we sell them around 11bn euros, rather than a 30% shortfall in food we only have a 22% shortfall.

                        Can we boost non-EU food imports from 19% of UK consumption to 41%? Of course we can. The EU will no longer be selling 40bn euros of food, so all of their non-UK suppliers will have excess stock and be looking for something to sell it.

                        Oh, I'm so sorry. I resorted to facts and reason again.

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          @Cederic - Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                          What an absolute ridiculous comment. Do you really think that we import the same food categories that we export and you can therefore just net them off?

                          Let's just say that if you're willing to massively increase your consumption of alcoholic drinks (primarily whisky), chocolate and to a lesser extent cheese, then yes your post makes sense to but simply quoting facts does not make a coherent arguement.

                          1. Cederic Silver badge

                            Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                            If you want to assume that zero netting off will be possible, there's still the large production output that the EU will no longer be selling to the UK and will instead be consuming internally or selling to other countries.

                            Which would mean the EU not buying 40bn euros of goods from other people. Who can they sell their products to? Oh, I wonder.

                            Of course, the assumption that all trade between the UK and the EU would stop is itself naive and stupid, so at no point would the UK need to source 40bn euros of food from other sources anyway.

                            Really, people keep marking my posts down because I dare to challenge the farcical and ludicrous belief that Brexit will lead to violence due to empty supermarkets? I haven't seen a single credible argument that would support that nonsense claim.

                            It's specious fearmongering. Stop it.

                            1. reubs007

                              Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                              Agreed. I mean the entire logistics and haulage industry is terrified about what will happen on the 1st January, but what do they know about moving food from A to B?

                            2. heyrick Silver badge

                              Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                              "belief that Brexit will lead to violence due to empty supermarkets? I haven't seen a single credible argument"

                              Uh, didn't the government do some sort of study that included exactly that as a very probable outcome in the event of a messy transition due to a crash out?

                              I seem to remember that was around the time that we learned that Rees-Mogg's claim that things would all sort themselves out in a little while was measured in decades, not months...

                              1. Cederic Silver badge

                                Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                The withdrawal agreement prevented a "crash out", and the Government (and industry) have had a lot of time since to undertake further preparations.

                                Indeed, one reason for Government studies is to identify sub-optimal outcomes so that mitigation measures can be taken.

                                Will it be messy? Almost certainly, not least because of actions in and by France disrupting the smooth flow of goods. Will that result in empty shelves and violence? No.

                                1. sed gawk Silver badge

                                  Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                  That would be the Withdrawal agreement, that is being reneged on as we speak.

                                  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/07/michel-barnier-worried-by-no-10-plans-to-renege-on-brexit-deal

                                  Try evidence mate. As you keep telling us how intelligent you are..

                                  It will be a clusterfuck, entirely predictably, and you are trying to stick it on the French.

                                  How little agency do you think we have, we own this screw up, our country voted for it, and our government is implementing it.

                                  In what way can you blame that on the French?

                                  Unless you count Man O' the (cream - e.g. rich and thick) People - Farrige as "The French" in which case, no, it's still our fault.

                                  1. Cederic Silver badge

                                    Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                    You cite a speculative article in the known-to-be-biased Guardian that's based on no actual facts, no statements from the people it's claiming are doing something and indeed, that's contradicted by the Government less than two hours after publication. Then tell me to try evidence mate.

                                    Stop believing the Guardian. Stop believing the EU. Stop believing all the lies, and stop parroting them.

                                    I'm so sorry that the facts support me, that reason and logic support me, that the fearmongering proves again and again and again to be mere fearmongering. You'll have to forgive me though if I keep pointing it out, so that others don't get caught in the same trap that you're struggling with.

                                    1. heyrick Silver badge

                                      Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                      "Stop believing the EU."

                                      Conveniently, stop believing in the options of those whose narrative is contrary to the effluent spewed by the current bunch of wankers pretending to run the country.

                                      How about you stop believing the Tories instead? After all, their numerous U-turns indicate that even if they should happen to say something that makes sense, they'll disagree with it shortly afterwards. You know, like the so-called Withdrawal Agreement.

                                      1. Cederic Silver badge

                                        Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                        I didn't believe the Conservatives. Which is why I ignored their leaflet, why I ignored Cameron, why I ignored Osborne and voted to leave the EU.

                                        Sorry, what was that? You're trying to rewrite history? Stop gaslighting me. The Conservative Government supported staying in the EU, and many Conservative MPs tried last year to subvert democracy to prevent us leaving the EU.

                                        Whatever made you think I would believe the Conservatives?

                                        1. heyrick Silver badge

                                          Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                          "The Conservative Government supported staying in the EU"

                                          Oh, I'm sorry. My mistake. It must have been some Labour twat driving around in a big bus with rubbish written on the side. Likewise, the ERG, they're LibDems, right?

                                          Face it - the Conservatives did not "support the EU". Some did, and we're in this mess because of what is basically a conflict between the moderates and the hardliners (with no useful Opposition to temper the chaos).

                                          "You're trying to rewrite history?"

                                          Not at all. Certainly not like you lot will be when it all goes tits up and you try to blame "the French" or, well, anybody else.

                                          Again.

                                          "Stop gaslighting me."

                                          Stop bullshitting me. You've had four years. Either deliver on all those promises made, or admit that it's a huge delusion of a former colonial power that hasn't yet understood it's increasing irrelevance in the modern world.

                                    2. sed gawk Silver badge

                                      Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                      Fair point - here is sky https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-live-row-set-to-erupt-over-governments-withdrawal-agreement-plans-12065657

                                      The torygraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/07/politics-latest-news-politics-news-boris-johnson-brexit-trade/

                                      The mirror https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-give-brussels-october-22638843

                                      Politics home https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-set-for-eu-clash-as-number-10-casts-doubt-on-brexit-deal

                                      BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54051933

                                      Express https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1332474/Brexit-talks-Boris-Johnson-news-northern-Ireland-withdrawal-agreement-customs-bill

                                      ITV https://www.itv.com/news/2020-09-07/pm-planning-to-override-key-parts-of-brexit-withdrawal-agreement

                                      Facts mate. if everyone at the party tells you you're drunk, you don't drive.

                                      1. Cederic Silver badge

                                        Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                        Sky: Lots of hysterical reaction to false rumour leaked by a malicious civil servant followed by "we are taking limited and reasonable steps to clarify specific elements of the Northern Ireland protocol in domestic law" - so not reneging on the agreeement.

                                        Telegraph: "Number 10 insists it will not rip up Withdrawal Agreement and is only seeking 'clarifications'"

                                        PoliticsHome: Your link at no point states that the withdrawal agreement will not be kept

                                        Mirror: Article based on a false rumour leaked by a malicious civil servant

                                        BBC: Lots of reaction to false rumour leaked by a malicious civil servant. Rather short on facts.

                                        Express: "Sam Lowe, senior researcher for the Centre for European Reform revealed the UK is not attempting to “renege” on the agreement"

                                        ITV: "Prime Minister reportedly planning" - so not planning at all.

                                        I checked all of your sources. None of them have quotes from Ministers. None of them have anything from the Government that says anything other than "We will implement the Withdrawal Agreement". None of them have the text of the proposed legislation.

                                        This is all establishment pro-EU misinformation intended to attack the Government and bolster the EU. There is no factual basis to today's nonsense in the media and yet you seem to give it credence.

                                        Facts mate: If everybody at the party is telling me I'm drunk when I haven't touched alcohol for five weeks I don't let them gaslight me. Try actually finding some facts instead of attacking me for disbelieving malicious rumours.

                                        1. sed gawk Silver badge

                                          Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                          It's been widely reported, will you only accept an on the record quote of "The UK .Gov intends to tear up an agreement"?

                                          I don't intend to attack anyone, you are entitled to disagree with me, indeed I defend your right to hold opposing views to mine, on this and every issue.

                                          I think that the reports in the Media are reasonable evidence that this idea was floated.

                                          I will concede that until the concrete details of any such proposal are published, it's somewhat previous to carp about the contents.

                                          I do feel you are entrenched in the position of it will be fine, and the result is counter to that position.

                                    3. sed gawk Silver badge

                                      Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                      Reason - is not the same as blind faith.

                                      Logic, dictates a man who lies like breathing is not telling you the truth.

                                      The facts are you are going to blindly disregard every thing you are shown, and finally blame it on the French. (Evidence being you've already done it, and been pulled up on it)

                                      You want this, you're going to get your wish. Have the good grace to acknowledge the damage your desire is inflicting on the country, not least it's four years on, and you and CJ still can't point to anything that will be better.

                                      Your best argument, is "It won't be that bad", mate that's a hell of a chat up line, "come home with me, it won't be that bad, and at least it will be over quickly"

                                      1. Cederic Silver badge

                                        Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                        Have the good grace to acknowledge the damage your desire is inflicting on the country, not least it's four years on, and you and CJ still can't point to anything that will be better.

                                        What damage? The last four years have seen constant attacks on the UK by politicians trying to subvert democracy, and indeed as a result delayed the UK leaving the EU and delayed (and maybe even prevented) a free trade deal.

                                        The EU haven't negotiated in good faith because they think the UK will falter, because so many traitors* in Parliament kept telling them that would be the case.

                                        What will be better? We'll have full control of our own country, with no EU telling us whether we're allowed to support British companies or not, with no EU telling us we can't control our own waters, with no EU imposing laws on the UK, with no EU using our money to bribe companies to move out of the UK. I think that's far far better, and I was always willing to accept some short term economic hardship to achieve it. Right now it looks like we won't even suffer that, due to other factors (e.g. a global pandemic causing economic damage that progress on trade - FTA or WTO - will help repair).

                                        What's really confusing me is why people seem so upset at the UK negotiating a trade deal that rejects allowing a foreign power to dictate UK law.

                                        *When British politicians are telling a foreign power how to impose control over the British Government and its people, yes, that is traitorous. And yes, I wrote to my MP to explicitly tell him he was a traitor. He seemed quite hurt by it. Good.

                                        1. sed gawk Silver badge

                                          Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                          We'll have full control of our own country, with no EU telling us whether we're allowed to support British companies or not The GFA means we can't do things which distort the market, so no to ignoring state aid rules. A polemic in the torygraph here makes this point, and demands changes to the W/A to "fix" this. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/13/boris-johnson-cannot-allow-brexit-deal-rip-good-friday-agreement/ .

                                          That give some credence to the reporting today of desired changes to W/A.

                                          With no EU imposing laws on the UK, We had a permanant veto which we rarely used, so we had no laws imposed on us, conversely, leaving puts us as supplicants who'll have to take it, with no seat at the table, like Norway.

                                          I was always willing to accept some short term economic hardship to achieve it.

                                          Covid is a small example of what economic hardship might look like, and this is but a taste, I wonder if you'll be willing to see the hardship imposed on your countrymen in quite the positive light.

                                          Right now it looks like we won't even suffer that, due to other factors (e.g. a global pandemic causing economic damage that progress on trade - FTA or WTO - will help repair).

                                          So it's all down to Covid and, no-deal will magical make it better somehow? really? please explain, because the general concensus is that No-deal + Covid is considered worse than no-deal.

                                          with no EU using our money to bribe companies to move out of the UK.

                                          Don't know what you are referring to here, can you clarify please?

                                          What's really confusing me is why people seem so upset at the UK negotiating a trade deal that rejects allowing a foreign power to dictate UK law. what like TTIP that we were cheerleaders for and thanks to our membership of the EU, managed to escape from.

                                          *When British politicians are telling a foreign power how to impose control over the British Government and its people This is just baseless nonsense, we control our own laws, hence why laws differ through the EU. Small example drugs, different laws in Portugal, NL, UK.

                                          Taxations - different throughout EU, legislative bodies ...

                                          You are being challenged on the substance of your contributions, as they don't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

                                          1. Cederic Silver badge

                                            Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                            I'm not sure whether the interpretation by the telegraph is accurate or not. The things coming out on Wednesday are meant to clarify, so the UK Government position may well be that the state aid and ECJ impacts on NI were never agreed to cover the rest of the UK and the interpretation has always been that they wouldn't, with domestic law providing the legal clarity to match. I'm sure Gina Miller will crowdfund a court case to test this.

                                            Leaving the EU does not put us "as supplicants". It puts us as a sovereign nation making its own laws and choosing whether to cooperate with the EU on international matters. If EU law makes that undesirable we can choose to ignore them.

                                            re: EU funding for companies to move out of the UK, read https://archive.is/ChK1i - I'd like the FT directly but their paywall gets in the way. Note that the Twinings grant was reversed, but the process is this: EU gives funds for 'regional development', those funds are used to bribe (or "subsidise" as it's legally known) companies to open new facilities in that region, the companies then shift production and close down their old factories. Meanwhile the UK couldn't match those subsidies because of state aid rules. No wonder the EU are so keen to prevent us setting our own laws in this area.

                                            I wasn't a fan of TTIP either.

                                            British politicians were explicitly flying to Brussels, telling them how to negotiate with the UK, telling them not to negotiate with the UK, promising to overthrow the democratic result of the referendum, actively trying to do exactly that. That's not baseless nonsense, that's a matter of record. Perhaps you missed the Supreme Court creating new law, maybe you didn't notice centuries of Parliamentary convention being overthrown, it seems to have escaped your notice that politicians voted to force the Prime Minister to not leave the EU without an agreement that they were at the same time telling the EU not to give the UK. Which is, incidentally, why we ended up with such a shitty withdrawal agreement. Blame Theresa May by all means, she has culpability, but at least she wasn't overtly acting against UK interests.

                                            As for the economy, the pandemic and associated lockdown have killed the economy so badly that I already can't get a job, so next year I'm going to run out of money and kill myself. I will however at least get to see the end of the UK's membership of the EU, so I can die content on that front anyway.

                                            1. sed gawk Silver badge

                                              Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                              I'm not sure whether the interpretation by the telegraph is accurate or not. The things coming out on Wednesday are meant to clarify, so the UK Government position may well be that the state aid and ECJ impacts on NI were never agreed to cover the rest of the UK and the interpretation has always been that they wouldn't, with domestic law providing the legal clarity to match. I'm sure Gina Miller will crowdfund a court case to test this. So you accept the earlier reporting of .GOV desire to redraw the W/A.

                                              Leaving the EU does not put us "as supplicants". It puts us as a sovereign nation making its own laws and choosing whether to cooperate with the EU on international matters. If EU law makes that undesirable we can choose to ignore them. This is manifestly untrue, we'll be forced to comply with regulations we cannot draft, that is forcing us into the position that you claim we occupy.

                                              Geography matters.

                                              re: EU funding for companies to move out of the UK, read https://archive.is/ChK1i - I'd like the FT directly but their paywall gets in the way. Note that the Twinings grant was reversed, but the process is this: EU gives funds for 'regional development', those funds are used to bribe (or "subsidise" as it's legally known) companies to open new facilities in that region, the companies then shift production and close down their old factories. Meanwhile the UK couldn't match those subsidies because of state aid rules. No wonder the EU are so keen to prevent us setting our own laws in this area. Regional funding is intended to redress some of the damage done to the most deprived areas of the country, damaged by the Thatcher government and ignored by Blair and his successors. Companies leaving is not down to funding, e.g. redevelopment work in south wales. Conversely the steelworks in Port Tabot is shutting down due to Brexit https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/tata-steelworks-port-talbot-nationalised-18671269

                                              I wasn't a fan of TTIP either. Good as that is at least something we can agree on, and a sterling example of how being in the EU allowed us to tell the septics to refer to the reply in "arkell vs pressdram"

                                              British politicians were explicitly flying to Brussels, telling them how to negotiate with the UK, telling them not to negotiate with the UK, promising to overthrow the democratic result of the referendum, actively trying to do exactly that. That's not baseless nonsense, that's a matter of record.

                                              We've been in negotiation for four years, There is a widely publicised delegation of pro EU politicians going to ask for a long extension in the event of failure to get a deal. But the only people proposing to flatly ignore the results were the "Illiberal and Anti-democratic" party in the UK, and they got spanked.

                                              Incidently they made that promise knowing (1) they'd never be elected, and (2) purely to spike Labour's guns in the GE. Labour offered a deal, and a vote on the outcome, which was a reasonable compromise, in that it allowed leavers to confirm that what they were sold, was still what they wished to buy.

                                              Perhaps you missed the Supreme Court creating new law, They didn't they affirmed the existing law had to be ratified in parliament, which it duly was with the WAB 2017, a three line bill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_(Notification_of_Withdrawal)_Act_2017

                                              maybe you didn't notice centuries of Parliamentary convention being overthrown,

                                              I noticed the illegal behaviour of the Leave campaign, and the contempt for parliament shown by Bozo.

                                              it seems to have escaped your notice that politicians voted to force the Prime Minister to not leave the EU without an agreement That is perfectly proper, we elect MP's to represent, not delegate, for every pro-remain MP in a Leave seat, there is a pro-leave MP in a remain seat.

                                              that they were at the same time telling the EU not to give the UK. This is untrue, we've been offered generous term, however we simply don't want a deal, have never wanted a deal, and will never accept a deal, the rest is just window dressing. Also it's not a matter of MP's telling the EU anything.

                                              Our negotiators have been laughable, and outclassed on every matter.

                                              Which is, incidentally, why we ended up with such a shitty withdrawal agreement. We have an agreement based on the Red lines of the headbangers, trying to split the four freedoms of the single market, which was explained clearly was not happening, also having signed the GFA, we cannot get a deal with oblivates our responsiblities under a binding international treaty.

                                              Blame Theresa May by all means, she has culpability, but at least she wasn't overtly acting against UK interests. Treasonous has caused vast amounts of damage to the interests of the United Kingdom, it is my sincere belief that she should be prosecuted for treason. She is responsible for turning us into a narco-state, for what else would you call it when the family of the PM earn money from selling drugs that are illegal here. https://researchingreform.net/2018/07/02/pharma-company-majority-owned-by-uk-pms-husband-announces-new-cannabis-medication-days-after-home-office-relaxes-ban/

                                              The cost of providing her advantage is borne on our prison system, by our police and is a proximate cause of increased suffering amongst people suffering from chronic life limiting conditions. She has spent years campaigning to damage the young of this country while happily sharing a cabinet with sexual abusers https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-ex-minister-arrested-over-rape-qdm897rv2,

                                              As for the economy, the pandemic and associated lockdown have killed the economy so badly that I already can't get a job, so next year I'm going to run out of money and kill myself.

                                              I do hope this is not the case, I encourage you to speak to someone, no matter how bleak life looks, there is still hope, try https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/ or call them on '116 123' or https://www.thecalmzone.net/, People are there to listen to you, please try them.

                                              I will however at least get to see the end of the UK's membership of the EU, so I can die content on that front anyway. That's your perogative, I of course disagree with that view.

                                              1. Cederic Silver badge

                                                Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                                I decided when I got up to stop replying in this conversation. Breaking that rule to acknowledge that I have seen this:

                                                https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54073836

                                                No, I don't know how yet to interpret it. The full discussion as captured in Hansard (https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-09-08/debates/2F32EBC3-6692-402C-93E6-76B4CF1BC6E3/NorthernIrelandProtocolUKLegalObligations ) doesn't really help yet either.

                                                I shall wait and read further as more analysis and legal opinion is published.

                                                1. sed gawk Silver badge

                                                  Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                                  The thing is that the money behind the leave campaign want to leave with no deal, the rest is just window dressing. Personally I think that Bozo and jaj jaj are now bored and just want it over with.

                                                  Having tested the water with the Assange trial, and the various affronts to legality in the last few years, it's become apparent a significant minority of people will excuse any amount of malfeasance provided it's in someway spun as relating to Brexit.

                                                  Thus now emboldened, they are going to push it until the other side refuse to negotiate, leaving us with "no option" but to leave without a deal.

                                                  The rule of law, we've heard of it.

                                            2. John Smith 19 Gold badge

                                              "so I can die content on that front anyway."*

                                              Well I do hope you choose not to top yourself. So many of the people who provided the Leave campaigns majority have already died of old age.

                                              Whereas I'd have preferred they were all still around to experience the full glory of their decision, once the UK emerges onto those "Sunlit uplands" that BB was so eloquent about. It's what you voted for.

                                              *Still I suppose that's one way of "taking back control" of your life. :-( Same sort of idea, slightly different outcome.

                                2. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                  "France restricting the flow of goods"? *Facepalm*

                                  Cedric, you know nothing about trade, economics, or the EU...

                                  These are the WTO RULES you have been salivating for.

                              2. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: @Cederic - Stockpile your popcorn

                                @heyrick

                                "I seem to remember that was around the time that we learned that Rees-Mogg's claim that things would all sort themselves out in a little while was measured in decades, not months..."

                                I seem to remember the calculation for brexit losses were in decades because that far out you can claim almost anything (go Osborne)

                        2. Potemkine! Silver badge

                          Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                          we'll stop selling food to them

                          OMG! We won't be able to get whiskys and britsh beers anymore? What a catastrophe for alcoholics.

                    2. matthewdjb

                      Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                      So sorry for bringing intelligence into the conversation.

                      If only...

                    3. nematoad Silver badge

                      Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                      "So sorry for bringing intelligence into the conversation."

                      Oh! where?

                    4. cyberdemon
                      Mushroom

                      @Cederic: Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                      Where do you think all the grain comes from to feed our "made in Britain" British Beef, Pork, Chicken & Lamb? What about the wheat for our Bread?

                      The UK power grid is completely dependent on imported power from the EU. Without those connectors, the national grid would go dark and stay that way.

                      Shipping from elsewhere in the world is vulnerable to blockade. Power and data connectors are vulnerable to sabotage. Our joke of a Navy would be unable to do a thing about it. At times like these, we really need all the friends we can get. A trade spat with the EU is the last thing we need.

                      I personally believe we are heading for a new world war. Hopefully not as destructive as WW1 or WW2, but we have already begun a cold war with Russia and China.

                      Western society is now so dependent on technology that we would have a complete breakdown of society if the Internet went off for two weeks. Shops like Tesco wouldn't even be able to take Cash payments without their ERP system. Logistic companies would find it impossible to operate, if they could even make it through the traffic. Then there's Covid, then there's Brexit.

                      I think the shit could all hit the fan at the beginning of next year. Second or third wave of Covid, coupled with Brexit induced chaos, around the same time as we will be crowning King Charles III. We will have the most divided, angry, desperate and violent public we have ever had. Even the police & armed forces might not agree on who they work for anymore. There will be blame games, civil unrest, riots, food & goods shortages, and there will be blackouts. There will also be a lot of people pissed off with the rich (like you?) who have profited from this situation like only the rich can.

                      The likes of Rees-Mogg & co are in a position to bet against the UK - sell short and buy at the bottom - and protect themselves from the angry mob by fleeing to (ironically) Europe.

                      1. sed gawk Silver badge

                        Re: @Cederic: Stockpile your popcorn

                        To back up your point, A co-op in Bristol has had a failure of internet.

                        Cash only, and the number of people being turned away is amazing.

                        The cash point isn't working and for a significant number of people, no internet = no shopping.

                  2. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                    @reubs007

                    "I still cling to the vague hope that we can have a debate based on facts and reason"

                    It happens but not too often on here.

                    "Blah, blah, blah, £350mn a week for the NHS, Take Back Control, Get Brexit Done"

                    Recession if we vote leave, recession when we start art 50, recession somewhere in the future but brexits fault. Punishment budget. End of western civilisation. Etc.

                    "Moronic slogans are no substitute for the complex, detailed work involved in moving to new trading arrangements."

                    Very true. And none of it is getting sorted even after the extensions (due to both sides)

                2. Paul 195

                  Re: Stockpile your popcorn

                  Even before C-19 hit we had moved from being near the top of G7 for growth to the bottom following the referendum, not to mention the collapse in value of the pound (mainly visible as a steep rise in fuel prices). And this is before our trading arrangements have actually changed.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Stockpile your popcorn

              Cedric, for your own safety, please don't believe the crap you just wrote.

      2. Schultz Silver badge
        Pint

        "This mess is far too serious to say " I told you so" or getting out the popcorn"

        Well, I am far enough away and the mess looks entertaining enough that I'll happily say "I told you so" and sit back with the popcorn.

        Let the clowns be clowns and enjoy the show.

      3. the future is back!

        Re: Stockpile your popcorn

        And the fan that would processing the s**t will cost 3x the present price - and that when and if it arrives after a 15 day delay on its way from Italy. Ugh

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Stockpile your popcorn

      Popcorn? I've started stockpiling food and medicine.

  3. Adrian 4 Silver badge

    But it will be world-beating. You can be sure of that.

    1. Jon 37

      Oh yes

      Nobody does IT cock-ups like the UK government. We will have the best, biggest, world-beating screw-up you can possibly imagine! In terms of "damage caused" (including, but certainly not limited to, the cost of the system) it will be the best of the best!

      1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        Re: Oh yes

        Nobody does IT cock-ups like the UK government.

        With the Dutch and Belgian government running a close, tied second place.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

    Just like for the exam disaster, the glorious leader of little Britain will no doubt be on holiday when the rules change.

    AC because of the 51.9%...

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

      Good.

      Maybe he'll get stuck out there and not allowed back in.

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

        Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

        He won't be stuck across the channel - I guess his choice winter holiday destination would be a Castle in Perugia, or a villa in Mustique. Most probably the latter

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

          Very likely but Perugia still counts as across the channel - and in the EU.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

            People with money don’t have problems like this...

            It’s why Farage has an EU pension, dual nationality to get himself a German passport... and lives in the US.

            1. Dave Schofield

              Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

              >It’s why Farage has an EU pension, dual nationality to get himself a German passport... and lives in the US.

              As much as I despise the frog-face fuckwit, it is unfair to say he lives in the USA - he came back from the Trump rally in Ohio where he spoke to an empty car-park in time to break his quarantine a day early when the pubs opened, and he appears to have found a new calling as a dingy nonce.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Pint

                Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

                "Dingy Nonce"

                LOL

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

      "But Boris Johnson said the UK was "ready for any eventuality" after the transition period."

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54021421

      I do share Boris' optimism.

      I do also believe in fairies*.

      *Dido Harding will come riding her white charger to the rescue

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

        "But Boris Johnson said the UK was "ready for any eventuality" after the transition period."

        Spot the difference:

        Rowley Birkin QC

        Johnson talking Customs and logistics, his claims in that video about GB-NI trade were debunked in less than a day.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

        *Dido Harding will come riding her white charger to the rescue

        My thoughts entirely, once she has fixed the track+trace app and all is going swimmingly, she can be moved across to work her magic on this project too. She has an excellent track record.

        1. whileI'mhere

          Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

          "She has an excellent track record."

          Not least at the Cheltenham race track.

          1. Rich 11 Silver badge

            Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

            Yeah. After she'd finished raking it in I was living with reduced lung capacity.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

        "Dido Harding will come riding her white charger to the rescue"

        The lorries can all be parked up in a car park that doubles up as virus testing centre about 150 miles from Dover.

      4. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
        Paris Hilton

        Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

        *Dido Harding will come riding her white charger to the rescue

        I completely misread that statement.

        1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

          When Boris is around, anything can happen

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

            Not everything. Sensible decision making comes to mind as one exception.

            1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

              Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

              A fair point. The news trending at the moment does not bode well for a free trade deal.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I am sure Boris will be on holiday when the $h1T hits the fan

      What else can you expect from the coxit government?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Testing? Are you having a larf?

    They'll still be testing and adding more feature bloat/spread in January 2023 (if not 2024).

    January will be a total disaster for the freight boys. The Kent Car park will be mirrored along the A26 in France. Ferries will sail with just a handfull of trucks on board because of the delays in getting anything rubber stamped. The French 'Gallic Shrug' will be much in evidence.

    If you have anything due to be shipped in January or indeed anything due in 2022 then get it here before Christmas or it may not arrive at all without reams and reams and reams of paperwork (the IT system will crash at 00:01 or 01/01/22 and not come back for yonks) and an extra 10% Import Tax.

    We as in the UK voted to walk over a cliff like lemmings. We are getting close to that time people. Will Nigel (mine's a pint) Farage be leading the way?

    Where is he by the way? Has he escaped to some foreign bolt-hole to sit out the fiasco?

    Just saying what I feel is going to happen. I didn't vote for BREXIT but our Governments since then have failed the UK as a nation to get a trade deal done with the EU. They are our biggest trading partner for heavens sake. Get a deal done Boris! The words Brewery and Piss up come to mind.

    1. Smooth Newt Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

      Just saying what I feel is going to happen. I didn't vote for BREXIT but our Governments since then have failed the UK as a nation to get a trade deal done with the EU. They are our biggest trading partner for heavens sake. Get a deal done Boris! The words Brewery and Piss up come to mind.

      Sadly this broken software (let's not even pretend that untested software ever works) will be needed even with a deal. Even with a deal, unless the UK were to remain in the single market and customs union, which it is not, there will at the very least be rules of origin and sanitary/phyto-saniitary declarations left, right and centre.

      1. Warm Braw Silver badge

        Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

        needed even with a deal

        Also, (parts of) it will be needed, even with a deal, for moving goods between GB and NI.

        And most trade between the Irish Republic and Europe transits the UK to/from Channel ports.

        But apart from that everything will be fine.

        I wonder if Dom is planning to project pictures of the queues on to the walls of his E-mission Control [Warning: Daily Mail] in 70 Whitehall?

        1. Ralph Online

          Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

          The Irish have actually done their thinking, their planning, and their execution of their plans to bypass the UK over the last few years. The use of the UK as a "land bridge" to the Continent much reduced.

          From March 2019:

          https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-buster-sister-ship-begins-sailings-to-mainland-europe-1.3842933

          From May 2020:

          https://theloadstar.com/port-of-cork-wins-new-transatlantic-deepsea-call-on-icl-service/

          1. anothercynic Silver badge

            Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

            While Google shows ferry routes, there's no ferry route showing betwixt Zeebrugge and Dublin (or Rosslare, or Cork for that matter) for those superferries meant to bypass the UK.

            That said, I'm glad to see Ireland *has* done its homework and has alternatives to having freight destined from/for it transshipped via Brexit Island (until 2021 the more efficient way rather than going via Roscoff/Cherbourg).

            1. CliveS
              FAIL

              Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

              CLdN have direct sailings between Rotterdam and Dublin on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, with return legs on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Zeebrugge to Dublin direct sails Tuesday and Friday, with returns Friday and Sunday.

              Other routes include Cork - Santander, Cork - Roscoff, Rosslare - Roscoff, Rosslare - Cherbourg, Dublin - Santander, and Dublin - Cherbourg.

              1. anothercynic Silver badge

                Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

                Interesting... Sounds like Google needs to update their maps with the routes :-)

    2. nsld

      Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

      Get a deal done........

      Sounds great in principle, however, in practice you will still need all of the systems, lorry parks, additional capacity etc. even with the proposed deal.

      The FTA that Johnson is seeking will deal with some tariffs and quotas, but its not going to fix any of the non tariff barriers to trade, and its those babies which create the delays. Thats why Thatcher was a the architect of the single market, she understood trade friction and its associated costs, she also understood what freedom meant as well. The current bunch of eugenicists, racists and all round muppets (and thats just the SPADs) are not in her league.

      And IT won't replace SPS checks until you can train a robot to shove its arm up a cows bottom!

      Everyone I know in trade and logistics is personally stockpilling, that should tell you all you need to know.

    3. Adrian 4 Silver badge

      Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

      Or ferries stuck in port because there's nowhere to disembark while waiting for customs

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

        Or ferries stuck in port because there's nowhere to disembark while waiting for customs

        No danger of that - the trucks would be booked with the ferry company with no ferries that the Department for Transport under Chris Grayling signed up.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

          "the trucks would be booked with the ferry company with no ferries"

          If you think about it you'll realise they had a good idea - get another port ready to handle traffic.

          No ferries? No problem. How many big companies own the premises they operate from? How many companies own their company car fleets? They lease them. Same with ferries.

        2. Insert sadsack pun here

          Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

          "the trucks would be booked with the ferry company with no ferries"

          Ferries can't be stuck in port if they don't exist. The customs software can't be broken if it hasn't been created. You can't mislead parliament about the number of people affected by your data breach if you don't even pretend to know how many are affected. This government's got it all figured out. <taps forehead.jpg>

      2. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

        "

        Or ferries stuck in port because there's nowhere to disembark while waiting for customs

        "

        Ports, like airports, have large areas where passengers & vehicles can wait to clear customs after disembarking from the ferry. If they become full, then I suppose vehicles will be stopped from embarking at the other end.

        1. Adrian 4 Silver badge

          Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

          Sure they do, but they're not infinite.Or anywhere near as big as the lorry parks being created in Kent.

          It's like the R number, or Mister Micawber's income - once you have a queue that doesn't clear customs before the next ferry arrives, full storage spaces are inevitable.

          1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

            Nerr, just handle it like any networking problem. When a node is overwhelmed it drops packets it can't cope with. Ergo, we push excess lorries into the channel and the sender will surely resend using exponential back-off or the latest trendy algorithm.

            And the best thing about this approach? It doesn't cost the public sector a penny. (Except for a few gimps to do the pushing. And I bet we can find some Britain Last thugs that would volunteer for free.)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

          "If they become full, then I suppose vehicles will be stopped from embarking at the other end"

          No need... park them side-by-side in the Channel, run out the gangplanks and the lorries can drive from Calais to Dover over the new 'Boris Pontoon Bridge'

      3. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

        More likely stuck in port because the continental ports are all blockaded by striking French fisherman upset that they can't plunder UK waters any more.

    4. Cynic_999 Silver badge

      Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

      Might be better to send freight on small rubber dinghies ...

      1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
        Alert

        Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

        They'll be turned back mid-way by Priti Patel's Border Force cutters

    5. Stork Silver badge

      Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

      The one part where I do not doubt Mr. Johnson's abilities is in organising pissups

      1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        Re: Testing? Are you having a larf?

        I doubt even that and even in a brewery.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    we don't need to frikking deal

    we'll show them Frenchies... our French friends, we WILL show them! Rule Britannia, rule the waves, cummings never shall be laid!!!

    1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

      Re: we don't need to frikking deal

      Having done a lot of sailing, I can confirm that Britania does not have a very straight ruler.

    2. heyrick Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      Re: we don't need to frikking deal

      "cummings never shall be laid!!!"

      See icon ->

  7. codejunky Silver badge

    Shock

    The bureaucracy that runs the country cant get organised, who is surprised?

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      Stop

      Re: Shock

      Which bureaucracy would that be? Last time I checked, some jokers from something called the Conservative and Unionist (though apparently not of Ireland) Party were running the country.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Shock

        @Charlie Clark

        "Which bureaucracy would that be?"

        Since its about an untested software for this country by our gov I didnt think there was much ambiguity.

  8. DaveEdi

    So, road/sea based trade is basically fucked come 1st Jan?

    1. nematoad Silver badge

      Yep,and the rest of the country.

      1. tiggity Silver badge

        Indeed

        Will be nightmare for exporters

        In theory a disaster for imports too, unless UK gov basically tell customers to ignore paperwork and let stuff in .. but importers will still need enough paperwork to get out of the continental Europe ports, so depends how helpful EU states are (and they have no incentive to be helpful)

        1. reubs007

          Of course they will be helpful! Yes, the UK has been telling EU member states to go **** themselves for four years, and comparing them to Nazis, but it was just classic British pub banter!

        2. David L Webb

          The UK government have already said that they will not carry out full checks on imports for 6 months and that customs declarations and payments of tariffs on such imports just need to be recorded by the importing companies and dealt with later.

          https://www.twobirds.com/en/news/articles/2020/uk/trade-and-customs-requirements-after-the-end-of-the-brexit-transition-period

          " For this purpose, importers will need to determine and state the origin, classification and customs value of the goods. However, as regards imports from the EU, it will be possible to defer customs declarations on standard goods by up to six months and also to defer the payment of customs duties on such imports until the declarations are made. "

    2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Yup it'll be an epic cluster-fuck car-crash train-wreck manifesting as a completely blocked border with no trade able to go in or out, with SE England and NE France a pair of gigantic truck parks.

      Meanwhile, Bojo and Barnier dick about waiting to see who blinks first. Hint: no-one will blink first. They never do. This will go to the 11th hour when both sides will finally see sense and pull an agreement out of their collective arse. Which of course does nothing to help the little people dependent on being able to, you know, plan for stuff in advance.

      Dipshits, both.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        >Dipshits, both.

        Personally I blame Barnier. He is a professional politician, he should have forseen that the UK government's response would have been a complete cluster fuck and so arranged a deal with himself and implemented the software for the UK.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          If something like that doesn't appear in the opinion columns in the British right-wing comics in the second week of next year, I'll lie down in front of a bulldozer and eat my ID card.

    3. cantankerous swineherd Silver badge

      exporting looks to be a popcorn scenario. anything goes so far as imports are concerned, for the first 6 months anyway.

    4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "So, road/sea based trade is basically fucked come 1st Jan?"

      Not at all according to the head of Dover port.

      Because it's a public holiday.

      Road/sea trade on January 2nd OTOH........

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brexvid-19

    Now at least you have a real reason to stockpile toilet paper...

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Brexvid-19

      Time to stockpile tar and feathers. There'll be a need for them on Jan 1st.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Time to stockpile tar and feathers. There'll be a need for them on Jan 1st.

        When (not if) this Great Moment comes, guess what who's going to get the blame... And never mind the facts, don't let mere facts get in the way of feelings :)

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: Time to stockpile tar and feathers. There'll be a need for them on Jan 1st.

          If recent history is anything to go by, the government will spaff another £100M of taxpayer's money into a propaganda public information campaign telling us exactly whose fault it is. We should open a sweepstakes on the likley target now.

          Who will it be? "Lefties"? "Remoaners"? The EU? Maybe that old favourite, "illegal immigrants"? Or perhaps single mothers? They've not had a good go at them since the '90s (and if you've been paying attention, some of those same far-right faces keep turning up, eh John Redwood).

          Never underestimate the Tory party's ability to turn the people against each other while running off with the cash.

          1. heyrick Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: Time to stockpile tar and feathers. There'll be a need for them on Jan 1st.

            You forgot the feckless scrounging unemployed that don't even have the decency to get themselves zero hour contacts so they don't get counted as unemployed any more even though they're probably not actually working.

            Scum, the lot of them. Brexit is their fault. Covid too...

  10. Dinanziame Bronze badge
    Angel

    I'm glad that we will get a new season of my favourite reality show. It's a bit difficult to follow the current game of chicken between the EU and the UK government, each holding onto the fishing rights/common standards and refusing to let go while the abyss beckons, but it is sure to end up in a grand finale in December, and if history is any judge, we will get a sequel next year.

    1. nematoad Silver badge

      "...refusing to let go while the abyss beckons, "

      Ah that reminds me of a newspaper heading supposedly published in the '40s.

      "Fog in Channel, Continent cut off."

      It may well be apocryphal but does illustrate the isolationist streak running through some sectors of British society.

      I do wonder who will be worse affected by a no deal outcome.

    2. anothercynic Silver badge

      If anyone blinks, it'll be Johnson.

      1. Claverhouse Silver badge

        He keeps on doing that.

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Isn't it time for him to move on to his next mistress? Give a chap a break! All the hard work he's put into managing an epidemic, surely he's allowed some "quality time"?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Give a chap a break! All the hard work he's put into managing an epidemic"

          That'll be Boris "I'll not stop shaking hands" Johnson and his success in creating his own epidemic amongst his colleagues just so we could top the league tables

      3. DJO Silver badge

        If anyone blinks, it'll be Johnson.

        Not this time, a No Deal is crucial to his plan (OK, Cummings plan) which is a bonfire of regulations turning the UK into a low regulation, low tax (for the rich) regime which all us proles will have to pay for.

        Any deal with the EU would necessitate some form of "Level Playing Field" which would scupper his bonfire.

        1. reubs007

          Yes, apparently Cummings also has a brilliant plan to use state aid to bolster the UK’s tech industry. We used to call that picking winners. I wonder how many of the winners will be his mates?

          1. H in The Hague Silver badge

            "... to use state aid to bolster the UK’s tech industry. We used to call that picking winners."

            Yup. What really gets me is that for decades the Conservatives have been complaining about Labour wasting taxpayers' money in that way - and now they want to do it themselves.

            (Note: I may be relatively conservative, but currently most definitely not Conservative.)

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              @H in The Hague

              "Yup. What really gets me is that for decades the Conservatives have been complaining about Labour wasting taxpayers' money in that way - and now they want to do it themselves."

              The distance between Conservative and New labour being pretty thin. I think Boris moved the needle back a bit but not greatly.

              1. sed gawk Silver badge

                Re: @H in The Hague

                The distance between Conservative and New labour being pretty thin. I think Boris moved the needle back a bit but not greatly.

                Minimum wage = Labour - opposed by the Conservative party.

                Child Trust funds = Labour - opposed by the Conservative party.

                Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships = opposed by the Conservative party.

                Good Friday Agreement. (Major has to share partial credit for this)

                New Labour had many faults, but the Major government and the Blair years have a decent record.

                The current shower since 2010 have turned us into a laughing stock.

                But tie your scarf tightly and three cheers for vassalage.

                The only people who can't see clear differences between this utter bunch of cupid stunts and the worst excesses of New Labour, don't care to see.

                The invasion of Iraq, the use of torture in the war on terror, these are stains on the Labour government and the persons of Tony Blair and Jack Straw.

                All the social and economic gains made since 1997 have been reversed since the 2010 election of the Bacon Botherer and his Illiberal mates.

                Hence why we are now neck deep in the brown stuff while you carry on dribbiling out this guff in the vain hope that if you say it enough times, it will be come true.

                Sorry Lady Macbeth, those hands will never be clean again.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @H in The Hague

                  @sed gawk

                  "But tie your scarf tightly and three cheers for vassalage."

                  Who to? So far we have been a member of the EU to which we pay tribute for the benefits of its guiding hand (aka subordinate to aka vassalage). Or do you mean the US, to which you then mention Blairs wars in the middle east.

                  "All the social and economic gains made since 1997 have been reversed since the 2010 election of the Bacon Botherer and his Illiberal mates."

                  Since before 2010 you might note. Something to do with a massive expansion of public money being spent, a certain amount of selling off gold at rock bottom prices and badly negotiated PFI contracts leaving the country in the hole and the new treasurer coming to a note telling them there is nothing left.

                  "Hence why we are now neck deep in the brown stuff while you carry on dribbiling out this guff in the vain hope that if you say it enough times, it will be come true."

                  Pre covid what brown stuff? I am happy to accept the response to covid is an overreaction but pre covid? While the EU is again sinking further into the brown stuff.

                  We can all hold our own opinions of how left/right the tories are, but last I checked right wing was ment to be small government less spending. Yet we dont get a bonfire of quango's and we have higher spending than the Brown years (during the period claimed to be austerity! Pre covid)

        2. codejunky Silver badge

          @DJO

          "which is a bonfire of regulations turning the UK into a low regulation, low tax (for the rich) regime which all us proles will have to pay for."

          Fingers crossed.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't worry, I've just heard that it's all been outsourced to Seabourne Freight... it's on their website, just under their guarantee that your pizza will be delivered in 30min or it's free.

    Don't forget the inevitable change freeze kicks in on 1 Dec

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      re: Change Freeze?

      But which 1st Dec? My guess is 2022 at the earliest.

      1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: re: Change Freeze?

        Don't worry, there's plenty of opportunity to fit a few new months in between November and December.

        Boristebruary?

        Vladimarch?

        Donaldtember?

  12. xyz

    Err...

    J Foreigner Road Transport is only going to drop one load at (eg) Swindon before getting stuck in a Kent lorry park for 2 days trying to get back out again. He ain't coming back with a second load.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Err...

      Fortunately we will know by at least 11:45 on Dec31 if he is even allowed to do that.

      At the moment we don't know what the rules will be for Eu drivers in the UK.

      1. heyrick Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Err...

        "At the moment we don't know what the rules will be for Eu drivers in the UK."

        They can continue driving on the right?

    2. Geoffrey W

      Re: Err...

      RE: "...Kent lorry park..."

      Also known simply as Kent. They overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU so it's kharmic justice if they find themselves living in the midst of a gridlock. Of course, many other areas voted heavily for Brexit too, but they will have to suffer the same way as the rest of the country and have no food, drugs, jobs, etc. Being back in control...of not very much...will be well worth the pain. Of course, perhaps I'm just being a naying nelly and it will all turn out to be a new golden age, as they promised. Can't wait to see. It will be a nice diversion to what Trump will be doing in his second term. A new Dark Age! Glory! Glory! Lets put the Great back in Britain! I have my bunting ready!

      1. Insert sadsack pun here

        Re: Err...

        "Also known simply as Kent. They overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU"

        I keep seeing this sort of stuff. Kent was 59% leave. It's certainly a clear victory, but that's still pretty close. There are very few parts of the country in which there was an OVERWHELMING result one way or the other.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: Err...

          59:41 is a nearly 20 point margin so while "resounding" or "clear" might be better, "overwhelming" is reasonable in the context.

          1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: Err...

            To be fair, despite all the misinformation flying around, those touting the leave campaign were pretty clear that we wound;t be getting a "no deal" exit. What people was sold was pretty much business-as-usual. Really all you can tell from the 59:41 result in Kent is that 59% of the people in Kent didn't realise that they were being lied to.

            It's a bit unfair to blame the people who swallowed the lies - that's a bit like blaming a domestic abuse victim for getting beaten up because the guy was charming and nice to start with. As with domestic abuse, the perpetrator is the one in the wrong. We should be aiming the blame firmly at the liars and cheats who got us into this mess, who, like the proverbial DV perp have already run off with the money.

            1. DJO Silver badge

              Re: Err...

              It's a bit unfair to blame the people who swallowed the lies

              Bollocks, to quote the X-Files, "The truth is out there" if you can be bothered to look. Anybody who believes the crap in the likes of The Daily Mail deserves no sympathy.

        2. vistisen

          Re: Err...

          59% of those who voted. The other have no right to complain

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Happy

        "...Kent lorry park..." "overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU" " kharmic justice"

        I'm guessing they will discover the truth of old proverb "Khama's a b**ch"

  13. wolfetone

    Well, we can but hope that there's some sort of extension before then so we can get our shit together. But judging by how well our response has been to COVID, I will definitely be stock piling toilet paper from this weekend for the inevitable shit show that will unfold.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @wolfetone

      "Well, we can but hope that there's some sort of extension before then so we can get our shit together"

      We had that. Hell how many extensions are we at now?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: @wolfetone

        There will be no extension.

        However we reckon we could get a lean-to built by the end of 2021 if there are any old doors going spare on the allotment

      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: @wolfetone

        None, a transition period was always part of the agreement.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @wolfetone

          @Charlie Clark

          "None, a transition period was always part of the agreement."

          No. A fixed length transition period exists in art50 which requires agreement from both sides to extend. It has been extended over and over for the gov to take a holiday, to mess around some more and then for the new government to have a pop at it.

  14. Caver_Dave
    Boffin

    How hard is it really?

    DHL, UPS, Parcel Force, (FFS even) Amazon, can happily send, track and deliver across borders and continents (so taxes, tariffs, etc.) with relatively little friction. There's one working model you can copy. For another try the system the Scandinavians use. The lists of required documentation for each country is published by the countries (of blocs) online. So you have a rough outline of what you have to support already.

    If it took a competent program team (of 5 or 6) more than a week to design the databases, cloud infrastructure ('cus it has to be cloud now!), web and AP design and programming API (for those people who want to interface with their existing warehousing systems) then I would be surprised. Then about a month to program and unit test, and then a month to beta test.

    If they had started when they came back from Christmas then it would have been ready before lock-down.

    However, this is government IT and their usual consultants have to get their snouts in the trough, (to the order of 100's of millions) and take many months to get nowhere.

    It's not rocket science - I know, because that's part of my job!

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: How hard is it really?

      "DHL, UPS, Parcel Force, (FFS even) Amazon, can happily send, track and deliver across borders and continents (so taxes, tariffs, etc.) with relatively little friction."

      So they can. The problem starts when you have to work out where they delivered it.

      Your truckload of toilet paper might be no closer than the Goodwin Sands. Check the photo the drive took to prove it.

      1. The commentard formerly known as Mister_C

        Re: How hard is it really?

        From my (very limited) experience*, DHL get through customs and excise by ponying up all the import duties themselves and then invoicing the parcel recipient. Then being _very_ insistent on getting rapid payment.

        * First 3D printer I bought was described as "UK stock". I learned otherwise when I got a DHL message to let me know it had arrived in Europe at Frankfurt. Cleared customs at Manchester hours later and got delivered to my work address a few hours later. One week later our accounts lady wanted to know why she was getting snotty emails chasing import duty...

        Fortunately I was able to claim the duty back thanks to fleabay & paypal being bastards towards sellers who are economical with the truth. Seller cried even more when I requested that they replace non-functioning electronics.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: How hard is it really?

          "Seller cried even more when I requested that they replace non-functioning electronics."

          Probably spammed you to leave feedback.

    2. Smooth Newt Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: How hard is it really?

      Well, everything is easy for those who don't have to do it.

      If it took a competent program team (of 5 or 6) more than a week to design the databases, cloud infrastructure ('cus it has to be cloud now!), web and AP design and programming API (for those people who want to interface with their existing warehousing systems) then I would be surprised. Then about a month to program and unit test, and then a month to beta test.

      For a start, 'working' means that it has actually to work for normal human beings who are lorry drivers and clerks. Have you ever seen how real human beings struggle with products designed by programmer nerds who think they know what a user interface looks like?

      How about a use-case? A one-man lorry driver business. He does not have a masters degree in IT, nor is he an expert in international trade - but he does have a class C+E heavy goods vehicle licence. His lorry is going to carry a mixed load, including 60 different animal products, and he is taking it to Paris. So separate paperwork needed for each product please. Oh, and did I mention that your system has to be usable by normal people like him?

      Start by looking at Importing live animals or animal products from non-EU countries. This is the British system - there will be a closely equivalent French one (which I can't be arsed to find out for you) and he will need the paperwork for that. This is just the commodity specific stuff for animal products - nothing about tariffs, trade quotas, the lorry and driver's own paperwork, or even the wooden pallets themselves (yes, there are strict phytosanitary rules about those).

      Nor have we looked at the rest of his load, which includes batteries, plant products, and cosmetics, all of which have their own comodity-specific rules.

      1. sed gawk Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: How hard is it really?

        Hang around, you sound like facts have informed your view.

        We'll have none of that "educated opinion" here, thank you.

        How very dare you suggest that the brilliant plan outlined by "caver dave brent" has not covered every conceivable angle in the ten seconds he allocated to the problem of international trade.

        After all "It's not rocket science, - I should know, it's part of my job" How munificent he is to shared a portion of his wisdom. Truly we are not worthy.

        Please please tell me that he's trolling us, and I need to stand him a virtual pint.

        Because otherwise, I think I need to start working on drinking myself into a stupor.

      2. keith_w Bronze badge

        Re: How hard is it really?

        The lorry driver will not be responsible for doing the paper work. He will be handed the paper work by the shipper(s) or customs brokers who will have uploaded it to the appropriate authorities. The drivers responsibility will be to hand the paper work to the appropriate customs officer for inspection. No driver is going to spend unpaid time filling in forms when they could be getting paid for driving.

        1. sed gawk Silver badge

          Re: How hard is it really?

          Explain that to the nice man at customs, that you have no idea what is in the back of the lorry.

          It's fantasy, you drive it, you are liable for it.

          Most of the drivers are now self-employed, so will be utterly exposed to liability.

          I suspect some of them might want to try and limit the fines for smuggling/ failure to declare.

          It's a problem, that is going to run and run and run.

          The study from the port of Dover, said two minutes would cause hours of tailbacks https://www.verdict.co.uk/study-finds-brexit-could-cause-severe-delays-at-border-checkpoints/

          How long do you think it's going to take to unload, check, reload each lorry.

          We check for stowaways using CO2 detection machines to avoid that scenario, how do you expect to meet the phytosanitary requirements, or anyone of the thousands of tedious regulations required to protect food production across the Trading bloc.

          1. keith_w Bronze badge

            Re: How hard is it really?

            What you say to the nice customs man is here is the paper work for this load. My wife works in logistics for an import/export meat trading company here in Canada handling imports from the United States, Mexico, Brazil and Poland. For US pickups, the truck driver pulls up to the warehouse, they load the truck with meat. The on duty USDA veterinarian seals truck with the numbered inspection seal. The truck driver pulls out and drives to the border. The paperwork is given to the driver and forwarded to the purchaser who sends it to the Customs broker who uploads it to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA). It aalso details where the load is to cross the border and where to take the load for inspection by the CFIA. CFIA checks the seal number on the truck against the paper work. Sometimes they send the load on as is. Sometimes they inspect the entire load, Sometimes they take one package of the load and thaw it if it is frozen to check that it matches the description of the load. In no case does the driver have anything to do with the contents of the load beyond handing over the paper work unless the seal numbers don't match. It's more complex for the other countries but essentially the same. I cannot imagine that it will be any different for any other country.

            1. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: How hard is it really?

              So Canada and Mexico and the US are part of NAFTA iircc.

              That's rather a large difference, also we currently have a JIT system which mean that the paperwork being done in advance of the very long drives across the US and Canda are not feasible here.

              For example, this is the mini, take a look at the crankshaft - just one part https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

              We're a fairly small country and the space for inspection, warehousing is not there anymore, we don't have the ability to do that, hence our government's plan for the equivelent is "don't check". Except for when we check https://www.gov.uk/government/news/temporary-tariff-regime-updated

              Also between Canda/US/Mexico, you have English, French and Spanish.

              Try Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Polish, Romainan, Bulgarian, Swedish in less space than a large US state.

              Also, the reason we are going to have to declare goods, is Country of Origin Labelling, as the EU has higher animal welfare standards, and refuse to allow the UK to become a back door to lower quality foodstuffs, hence the level playing field regulations.

              Your suggestion is based on ignoring an FTA, ignoring the relative size of the countries, but apart from that, it's still not credible.

              You cannot take a load of goods into the single market without having declared what they are, that is not flying, not now, not ever. We have the same rules currently so most trucks are just scanned for extra passengers. Now the driver must be checked to ensure right to enter, the loads must be checked to allow rights of transit and duties paid.

              1. EvilDrSmith Bronze badge

                Re: How hard is it really?

                Just-in-time can easily cope with longer journeys if you know it's going to happen.

                And the journey from Romania, or Berlin or ferry from the Netherlands isn't that short. Paper work in advance is entirely feasible.

                Plus every year, transport throughout Europe is stuffed by Snow, storms in the Channel, French fishermen going on strike, causing immediate unplanned delays, yet industry throughout Europe copes without problems.

                We're not actually a small country, and we're building sheds, erm, I mean logistic centres all over the place (ask Amazon). We have the space for the warehouses and inspection centres.

                Animal welfare standards in the EU were historically driven largely by the UK, was my perception, and we're not going to dropping our food quality standards either.

                1. sed gawk Silver badge

                  Re: How hard is it really?

                  If we have the space for the shed, what is operation stack about?

                  Why has kent been turned into a lorry park?

                  The level playing field regulation that we refuse to sign up to mandate that we don't race to the bottom on animal welfare standards and Country of Origin Labelling. (COOL).

                  The negotiating objectives of the US, include removal of COOL, and lower welfare standards.

                  https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf

                  Otherwise, why would we not sign up? The simple answer is a desire to not be bound by the rules.

                  The US and Canada are considerably bigger than us, a drive of several days is common place.

                  You can drive from amsterdam to london, with only a stop at the French border to drive on/off in under half a day.

                  The customs paperwork will be checked as we are telegraphing our desire to break the rules at everyturn.

                  A JIT system is based on minimizing slack, there is simply no room to absorb the extra delays.

                  The businesses will relocate or fold.

    3. sed gawk Silver badge
      Facepalm

      It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

      A waterfall development process, with an immovable deliverable date.

      No notion of scale required, no notion of UX research for the people required to use your fantasy system.

      The "code monkey" will of course, excrete perfectly formed handfuls of code, suitable for hurling at other alpha squirrels.relality

      Why will you need "months"? oh wise and benevolent embodiment of the peter principle.

      It's indeed not rocket science, it's an utterly asinine description of a complicated multi-language, multi-legal system, novel requirement.

      As I said, it's rude not to share, the fine stuff that allows you to float over such pedestrian concerns as reality.

      "I know, as it's my job", GTF with that shite.

      1. Insert sadsack pun here

        Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

        tbh in the world world of mundane business we could barely move some desks around the office in less than six months. I don't know how people think a brand new complicated fancy system like this can be knocked out at the end of the year.

        1. sed gawk Silver badge

          Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

          It's amazing that they think the users of said system numbering everyone who previously was okay to just drive the lorry, is now going to magically become capable of correctly filling in the declaration on mixed loads.

          They don't expect it to work, it will be an excuse to hand vast sums of money to the cronies.

          They will scrap it, and just let stuff through, while complaining that our exports are impeded.

          I don't see how you could be this bad at work and retain one's job, it's just maddening.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

            "I don't see how you could be this bad at work and retain one's job"

            Fixed 5 year contract and sole skill being ability to bluff jib interviews.

            1. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

              Yes, I fear you may be right, let face it, if you can keep your job after feeding your boss, the line about eye tests, anything is possible.

              I can honestly say, I've never worked anywhere that wouldn't have fired me on the spot for that level of sheer malignant dishonestly.

      2. Anon

        Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

        The delivery date is movable, but some people in the U.K. government want to impose their bizarre notions of reality on the rest of us.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

        "A waterfall development process, with an immovable deliverable date"

        And, as yet, no statement of requirements.

        1. sed gawk Silver badge

          Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

          Requirements, where we're going, we won't need requirements.

          After all, we'll just make up what words mean, like calling a bunch of hippies protesting a printing plant, an "organized crime group".

          All they will do is say "Yeah but Corbyn". "It would have been fine except for that pesky Barnier".

          "We'll have an Australian style deal". And the gammon will lap it up.

          Last night, I listened to some oxygen thief dribble out how the German car industry are waiting until they saw the whites of our eyes before commanding Merkel to somehow give a shit.

          Given that denial of reality, the S.O.R will be a thing of beauty, contained entirely within the head of David Davis. After all wouldn't want to take the risk of letting the other side, know our plans.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

            "We'll have an Australian style deal"

            Well we've been through most of the atlas for <insert name of country>-style deals and we've finally got back to the 'A's

            I'm just wondering what was wrong with the Zimbabwean-style deal...

            1. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: It's rude to keep the drugs to your self, pass the duchy 'pon the left hand side..

              Zimbabwe invites unflattering parallels with our fiscal competence.

              That said, it's not a bad model for Brexit, economically backward and authoritarian with that nice Uncle 'Bob' booting farmers off their land, and turning the breadbasket of Africa into a basket case.

              Australia is far enough away that the idea they have no deal with the EU is lost on the Bigots who are comforted by the idea of a place where this happens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsKtNQpULpA

    4. Observer!

      Re: How hard is it really?

      So you're offering fixed price contracts before the trade agreement is finalized?

      I'd like to play poker with you for money.

  15. Nifty Bronze badge

    1. Yes it will be a cock up

    2. Incompetent government is not in itself a rationale for staying in the EU

    1. sed gawk Silver badge

      You have it backwards.

      Our rationale for staying in the EU is protection from of the "Incompetent government".

      As in we could leave the country, "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet".

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: You have it backwards.

        @sed gawk

        "Our rationale for staying in the EU is protection from of the "Incompetent government"."

        The rational being to protect us from an incompetent government by another layer of less accountable and equally incompetent government? Thats my rational for leaving.

        1. sed gawk Silver badge

          Re: You have it backwards.

          Your rationale for leaving is utterly bonkers, and everytime you make any effort to defend it, you collapse under the weight of facts.

          Jaj Jaj cummings, and his tousle haired meat puppet. Did you vote for Cummings?

          What power does he have?

          Where did his power come from?

          In whose name does he exercise it?

          Who is he accountable to?

          How do we get rid of him?

          These questions, are answered for the EU, here https://www.london4europe.co.uk/tony_benn_s_five_questions

          Grenfell? utter failure of regulations - find the equivalence in the EU.

          Educational manipulation of results, rather then let them sit the sodding exam in a mask?

          Fascists blockading the port of Dover?

          Letting three million people, be utterly destitute while shuttering the economy?

          It's v simple, unless you are going to make out like a bandit, you've been gulled, royally mugged off.

          Our business are impacted, I used to export sw/ services to large clients throughout EU-27.

          Our ability to travel is impacted, it's utterly asinine to keep parroting this guff.

          Be honest, say, I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, and at least that will be credible. But the idea that delivering us into the clutches of the facist regime that is wearing the corpse of the tories is somehow to our advantage requires more proof that mere assertion.

          Back up your rhetoric, because we are leaving with no deal, and we are fucked.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: You have it backwards.

            @sed gawk

            "Your rationale for leaving is utterly bonkers, and everytime you make any effort to defend it, you collapse under the weight of facts."

            Actually the issue you have is that fixing incompetent government by adding another layer of incompetent government makes your argument against remaining. Self serving politicians are the norm, so claiming it fixed by adding another layer of self serving politicians where your little life means even less is stupid.

            "Did you vote for Cummings?"

            No. I voted for the conservative party (didnt have much choice) so that is why Cummings has as much power. Who voted for Mandelson? Yet he spoke and Tony's mouth moved.

            "It's v simple, unless you are going to make out like a bandit, you've been gulled, royally mugged off."

            So thats the reason you wanted to remain? So you can make out like a bandit? If that is your assumption for leave then I must assume that is your reasoning for remain?

            "Our business are impacted"

            Same here. Congrats.

            "Our ability to travel is impacted"

            Same

            "Be honest, say, I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, and at least that will be credible"

            I assume you have made such a bet? If you are so certain I assume you are ready to cash in on this certainty?

            "But the idea that delivering us into the clutches of the facist regime"

            Antifa? BLM? Socialists? Corbyn? Remainers who despite many votes have lost consistently.

            "Back up your rhetoric, because we are leaving with no deal, and we are fucked."

            If we leave with no deal thats fine. I wont be surprised if a last second deal comes about or something (just because they are freaking politicians) but happy with no deal. Instead of messing with a negotiation we should have been getting ready to just leave and consider any deal should it be offered. Unfortunately the desperation to remain is why our government has let the country down.

            1. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: You have it backwards.

              Antifa - stands for Anti Fascism.

              Please explain exactly what's wrong with opposing fascism in the context of our history.

              It seems you've forgotten exactly what happens when fascist go unopposed.

              Secondly, How does Black Lives Matter, have any relevance to brexit?

              Thirdly Evidence, not a single link to support, your assertions, just more bluster and deflection.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: You have it backwards.

                @sed gawk

                "Antifa - stands for Anti Fascism."

                And Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea stands for stuff too. You are aware the well known fascists were the National Socialist German Workers' Party aka nazi. And I have no issue with opposing fascists who wish to dictate our lives.

                "Secondly, How does Black Lives Matter, have any relevance to brexit?"

                You were talking about the clutches of a fascist regime and I was trying to clear up which you ment. Do tell. You said wearing the corpse of the conservative party and I am fairly sure you could get people to agree that the tories have become more left wing, especially when it was intentionally done to win over centre left as Milliband and Corbyn had moved labour further and further left.

                "Thirdly Evidence, not a single link to support, your assertions, just more bluster and deflection."

                Of? You ask for evidence but of what? If you claim an apocalypse it is up to you to evidence. The very logical and demonstrated incompetence of government over government isnt in question is it?

                1. sed gawk Silver badge

                  Re: You have it backwards.

                  So Brexit, not a single statement to explain why it won't be a shit show.

                  Just deflection and strawmen.

                  The evidence of it being a shit show comes from many sources.

                  The logistics industry think it will be bad - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/20/port-of-dover-warning-regular-gridlock-congestion-hard-brexit-trade

                  The medical profession think it will be bad - https://www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/working-with-europe/brexit/bma-and-brexit

                  The automotive industry think it will be bad - https://www.cebos.com/blog/how-brexit-could-affect-the-automobile-industry/

                  The IT industry think it will be bad - just look at this thread. or https://www.businessinsider.com/british-tech-execs-in-silicon-valley-watching-brexit-unfold-with-horror-2019-2?r=US&IR=T

                  The Legal profession think it will be bad - https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/the-effect-of-brexit-on-lawyers

                  The financial industry think it will be bad, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Brexit

                  In short, you put up a suggestion that the utter shower in power currently are improved by removing any check on their behaviour, and forbidding us from escaping or doing business abroad.

                  Physician heal thyself.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: You have it backwards.

                    @sed gawk

                    "So Brexit, not a single statement to explain why it won't be a shit show."

                    No evidence for it being a shitshow. Lots of opinion but beyond that thin on the ground. We were warned by auto and air manufacturers they would leave, then the tune changed when brexit looked like it was actually happening. We know of the doom and gloom claims, most of which passed their time to occur without even a peep. Such predictions seem to be the norm while not much comes of it.

                    "In short, you put up a suggestion that the utter shower in power currently are improved by removing any check on their behaviour, and forbidding us from escaping or doing business abroad."

                    The shower in power who are voted for vs the shower in power we cannot select but as you point out impose their will. Your really not selling this EU thing. And when you say forbidding escaping or doing business abroad do you mean EU protectionism or how we seem to have difficulty leaving the project?

                    1. sed gawk Silver badge

                      Re: You have it backwards.

                      We vote for MEP, using PR.

                      The people we cannot select are called the Lords, try to keep up.

                      We vote here based on FPTP, that right there is enough difference.

                      Impose their will, proof, not assertion. You've replied now four times, and yet to find anything to back up your contention. Unsurprisingly as it's utterly unsupported.

                      You've been given links, and over the last four years ample room to prove it, and you keep falling back on rubbish. The EU doesn't impose anything, we have a veto. The laws of the UK apply in the UK, so for example EC2000/12 in our law is Conduct of Employment Businesses 2003.

                      So we elected people to the EU parliament, Our head of government is represented at the Council of Europe (the leaders of EU 28 countries). We decide if we'll veto legislation that we vote on, and if we ratify it, we draft a law to implement it in our country - It's a model of good transparent governance.

                      We don't have difficultly leaving, we drafted the article covering leaving. We invoked it, and we left last year. We have difficultly being not worse off having left, that's an entirely different matter.

                      Being single being worse than being married, doesn't mean getting a divorce is difficult.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: You have it backwards.

                        "We vote for MEP, using PR."

                        Cool. So which presidents did you vote for in the EU? What were the names again? (not open book).

                        "The people we cannot select are called the Lords, try to keep up."

                        So you advocate adding another layer of unelected government who are also further removed from the issues of the country? Still not explained how this is a solution.

                        "Impose their will, proof, not assertion"

                        Going to throw your own words back at you- 'The laws and regulations'. I didnt realise I had to parrot back to you for you to read your own words.

                        Also another quote of yours- 'Our rationale for staying in the EU is protection from of the "Incompetent government".'. How is this achieved if the EU is not above our government to overrule them?

                        "The EU doesn't impose anything, we have a veto"

                        Except we gold plate EU laws and directives. Do we grow oranges in this country? Because we have a protectionist tariff to protect Spain's orange production. And of course various other protections for various countries that are not ours. So we might have a veto but we also seem to be under the EU.

                        "We decide if we'll veto legislation that we vote on, and if we ratify it, we draft a law to implement it in our country - It's a model of good transparent governance."

                        Hang on. So we elect people who either yey or ney legislation drawn up by who? Who do we elect for that? And who are these presidents again?

                        "We don't have difficultly leaving"

                        So after the initial transition period we left and there isnt a transition period currently going on? Or did we get extensions, hear that art50 was purposefully written badly to discourage use and only in this last gov finally start making moves to leave but with the negotiation still going on?

            2. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: You have it backwards.

              Actually the issue you have is that fixing incompetent government by adding another layer of incompetent government makes your argument against remaining. Self serving politicians are the norm, so claiming it fixed by adding another layer of self serving politicians where your little life means even less is stupid.

              Actually the argument for remaining is the EU is massively more democratic with PR rather than FPTP.

              The laws and regulations are well known and friendly to the existing businesses here.

              The corruption and incompetence of our political masters is well documented, included in this thread.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: You have it backwards.

                @sed gawk

                "Actually the argument for remaining is the EU is massively more democratic with PR rather than FPTP."

                Really? Does anybody know all of the EU presidents without looking it up (people might remember the German war woman but mostly because there were complaints about how she got elected).

                "The laws and regulations are well known and friendly to the existing businesses here."

                Very friendly. To the right businesses. Protectionism being one of those things enjoyed by those who enjoy it.

                "The corruption and incompetence of our political masters is well documented, included in this thread."

                Amusingly I keep agreeing so it isnt a stick to beat me with. Telling me politicians are crap to justify more politicians is amusing.

                1. sed gawk Silver badge

                  Re: You have it backwards.

                  Really? Does anybody know all of the EU presidents without looking it up (people might remember the German war woman but mostly because there were complaints about how she got elected).

                  And that has what to do with PR or FPTP?

                  It's like trying to debate someone with ADD, if you can name the person in charge of X, doesn't have any baring on the degree of democratic deficit in them assuming the role.

                  Protectionism is rather the point, we'll be on the outside of a protectionist system, except geographically we are rather more affected by that, hence why we join in the first place.

                  You don't seem to recognise, that enormous numbers of business that employ UK people, pay UK tax, are simply going to go to the wall. I declare a personal interest, including mine.

                  Telling you our political class is shit, is not the same as saying all political actors are shit.

                  Try to accept a level of nuance, Biden will be v slightly less shit than Trump, who was less of a war monger than (H) Clinton.

                  Bozo is worse than Treasonous, who was less competent than the bacon Botherer.

                  Merkel is clearly more competent than our entire Government, Macron is less trustworthy than CMOT Dribbler.

                  The Tories are left wing only in the imagination of the politically stunted.

                  The Bail out was for companies not people, leaving three million people destitute.

                  The creation of a new class of benefit claimant, (1) Income based, (2) Contribution based, (3) did you former employer like you pleb.

                  Left wing, my revolutionary comrade Clair Fox, type of left wing, as in Right Wing IRA apologist for the Warrington bombing.

                  A left wing approach would be UBI, free internet, feeding hungry children without being shamed by premiership footballers.

                  Not Treating hippies as "organised crime group" while uttering not a single word about actual blockading of the port of Dover.

                  Left wing, might involve asking why people are so desperate that they'll cross the worlds busiest shipping lane in a poundland dingy to try and seek safety (hint because we colonised their home countries so they speak English).

                  The KipCons are throwing the Irish under the bus, destroying our international reputation, (what's left of it) refusing to stop selling arms to people who dismember journalists in embassies.

                  The bombing of yemen is displacing people who end up here.

                  A left wing position might say that firstly, we might stop arming the aggressor.

                  But if a tenner off a meal (Blantant bribe to the turnip running `spoons) is all it takes, you're easily bought, left wing. They bailed out their mates so enough people would look the other way, and you fell for it, again.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: You have it backwards.

                    @sed gawk

                    "And that has what to do with PR or FPTP?"

                    Cmon you claim its democratic so you voted for these presidents didnt you? They are presidents of the EU which is above our government and you claim democratic so who did you vote for of these presidents?

                    "It's like trying to debate someone with ADD, if you can name the person in charge of X, doesn't have any baring on the degree of democratic deficit in them assuming the role."

                    So you dont need to know who is in charge of the EU hence laws and regulations affecting this country? I aint asking for the jobsworths just the presidents (because the EU has a few for some reason).

                    "Protectionism is rather the point, we'll be on the outside of a protectionist system"

                    Ok, so that works for you but what about the customers (aka everyone in the country) who are affected by lower quality and higher prices because of protectionism? Why must everyone pay for you to cash in (assuming you benefit from it)?

                    "You don't seem to recognise, that enormous numbers of business that employ UK people, pay UK tax, are simply going to go to the wall. I declare a personal interest, including mine."

                    Ok. So at what point do we care about the people in the country then? We must suffer the costs of protectionism because the protectionism has created these protectionist jobs? Your trying to sell me a cost as a benefit.

                    "Telling you our political class is shit, is not the same as saying all political actors are shit."

                    Ok. But the EU gov is shit. They cant even sit in one place, instead have to move to appease a member with pork.

                    "Try to accept a level of nuance"

                    Ok. Blair sold the country to the EU because he wanted a job with the EU. We were saved from the appalling Euro because Brown hated Blair. We have seen how good the EU is at running things, they decked economies to protect their currency. The UK bounced out of recession while the EU trashed poorer economies in the Eurozone.

                    "The Tories are left wing only in the imagination of the politically stunted."

                    I seem to have hit a left wing nerve there. With blow out spending (pre-covid) and making policies such as triple lock pensions. That of course while claiming austerity.

                    "A left wing approach would be UBI, free internet, feeding hungry children without being shamed by premiership footballers."

                    So more free stuff. Yes that would be further left.

                    "Left wing, might involve asking why people are so desperate that they'll cross the worlds busiest shipping lane in a poundland dingy to try and seek safety (hint because we colonised their home countries so they speak English)."

                    I thought economic migrants trying to get here in a dingy were just running away from the French. That glorious place fully on board with membership of the EU. Yet they want to come here with our opt outs and leaving the EU. Even travelling through other EU countries to get here.

                    1. sed gawk Silver badge

                      Re: You have it backwards.

                      Cmon you claim its democratic so you voted for these presidents didnt you? They are presidents of the EU which is above our government and you claim democratic so who did you vote for of these presidents?

                      It's democratic due to the number of people voting having an effect on the people being elected.

                      Votes are proportionate, See here for a worked example https://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/european-elections/european_elections/the_voting_system.HTML

                      Conversely the number of people who's vote make little difference to the person being elected here, and the flagrant manipulation of electoral boundaries make the difference.

                      So you dont need to know who is in charge of the EU hence laws and regulations affecting this country? I live in England, so the laws affecting this country are drafted in Westminster. See upthread for the example of CEB2003/EC2000/12.

                      There is a fundamental misapprehension of how the EU works. The commission (people nominated by EU member states) propose legislation, the EU Parliament (directly elected by voters using PR) debates ammendments etc, then once they agree the council (The leaders of countries) ratify - that's two places where we can change, or veto it. https://europa.eu/european-union/eu-law/decision-making/procedures_en Educate yourself mate, it's tiresome spoonfeeding you.

                      I aint asking for the jobsworths just the presidents (because the EU has a few for some reason).

                      The current trio is made up of the presidencies of the Germany, Portugal and Slovenia.

                      https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/presidency-council-eu/

                      "Protectionism is rather the point, we'll be on the outside of a protectionist system"

                      Ok, so that works for you but what about the customers (aka everyone in the country) who are affected by lower quality and higher prices because of protectionism?

                      You seem to miss the point, it's a protectionist system, so we're collectively (aka everyone in the country) worse off outside of it.

                      Why must everyone pay for you to cash in (assuming you benefit from it)?

                      I ran a tiny business paying UK tax while selling to people paying in Euro, how is that cashing in?

                      Okay, I'm an evil capitalist grinding the faces of the poor or some shite like that?

                      "You don't seem to recognise, that enormous numbers of business that employ UK people, pay UK tax, are simply going to go to the wall. I declare a personal interest, including mine."

                      Ok. So at what point do we care about the people in the country then?

                      Do I not count as one of the people in the country?, how does putting people in the country out of work, help the people in the country? It's mental. Being outside the tent pissing in is worse than being inside the tent pissing out.

                      We must suffer the costs of protectionism because the protectionism has created these protectionist jobs? Your trying to sell me a cost as a benefit. No, it's not a cost or a benefit. It's a fact that our economy had a foundation stone, and without that foundation, lots of businesses will topple.

                      You keep suggesting that being outside is someway to our advantage, but no evidence, no links to support your view, it's "cheap shoes for peasants" rhetoric.

                      Either we maintain the same quality of food, so it costs us more, and our food production industry goes to the wall. Or we lower the qalitity of food so our food production industry goes to the wall.

                      Joy, looks like a win/win.

                      "Telling you our political class is shit, is not the same as saying all political actors are shit."

                      Ok. But the EU gov is shit. They cant even sit in one place, instead have to move to appease a member with pork. And you care because ? They are shit because they move around. Mate you're past the bottom of the barrel and excavating the damp earth beneath.

                      "Try to accept a level of nuance"

                      Ok. Blair sold the country to the EU because he wanted a job with the EU.

                      Thatcher took us into the then EEC, in 1973, Blair was elected in 1997, I understand you are wedded to this idea but that's desperate stuff.

                      We were saved from the appalling Euro because Brown hated Blair.

                      We didn't join the Euro as Brown understood the Euro is a shit currency (ineffective surplus recycling)

                      We have seen how good the EU is at running things, they decked economies to protect their currency. Proof, links, or more bluster?

                      The UK bounced out of recession while the EU trashed poorer economies in the Eurozone.

                      Proof, links, or more bluster?

                      The UK in not in the Euro and not in the EU and is in recession, funny how that works, it's almost like there are other factors at play.

                      "The Tories are left wing only in the imagination of the politically stunted."

                      I seem to have hit a left wing nerve there. I'm just offended that these people could be described as left wing, it makes it impossible to describe corbyn as left wing when you content that the tories are left wing. The nerve you hit, is my gag reflex.

                      With blow out spending (pre-covid) and making policies such as triple lock pensions. That of course while claiming austerity. Triple lock pension, I see, so blatant bribe to their base, while closing down social care facilities.

                      "A left wing approach would be UBI, free internet, feeding hungry children without being shamed by premiership footballers."

                      So more free stuff. Yes that would be further left. It's investment, you drive down the cost of creating businesses so people start them, they can feed their familes so will try things which enrich us as a society.

                      "Left wing, might involve asking why people are so desperate that they'll cross the worlds busiest shipping lane in a poundland dingy to try and seek safety (hint because we colonised their home countries so they speak English)."

                      I thought economic migrants trying to get here in a dingy were just running away from the French.

                      The desperate people are refugees, not migrants. We have a proud tradition of helping people, see the

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Dubs,_Baron_Dubs shame on you for tarnishing our history with such grotesque distortions, may you never be that desperate.

                      That glorious place fully on board with membership of the EU. If you are a refugee, who speaks english, wtf would you want to go to a non-english speaking country?

                      Yet they want to come here with our opt outs and leaving the EU. Even travelling through other EU countries to get here. Again, being a speaker of English is the strongest indication of wanting to get to an English speaking country, if you are french speaker, you try to get to France.

                      I cannot imagine that when fleeing for your life, you choose a destination based on the number of opt outs from the EU, you live here, and have demonstrate heartstopping indifference to how the EU works, and you clearly have access to the internet. WTF do you expect some poor sod desperate for their life to have a better understanding than you do?

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: You have it backwards.

                        @sed gawk

                        "It's democratic due to the number of people voting having an effect on the people being elected."

                        Did you vote for the German war minister?

                        "I live in England, so the laws affecting this country are drafted in Westminster."

                        With an amount under the direction of the EU. Which Blair loved to gold plate to show how willing he was to drop trow and bend over.

                        "The commission (people nominated by EU member states) propose legislation"

                        We elect them? Since they propose the legislation?

                        "the EU Parliament (directly elected by voters using PR) debates ammendments"

                        So we elect people to yey or ney what they are told.

                        "it's tiresome spoonfeeding you."

                        What were those president names again (no looking it up).

                        "The current trio is made up of the presidencies of the Germany, Portugal and Slovenia."

                        Trio? I count 8 when I look it up and I dont see you providing any names (not full names, partials are fine). Those county names, they are not the member state country are they? If so looking it up agrees with Germany. In fact it claims 3 of them are Germany.

                        "You seem to miss the point, it's a protectionist system, so we're collectively (aka everyone in the country) worse off outside of it."

                        You assume protectionist to mean good. There is a huge area of disagreement with you there. The UK's past being one example.

                        "I ran a tiny business paying UK tax while selling to people paying in Euro, how is that cashing in?

                        Okay, I'm an evil capitalist grinding the faces of the poor or some shite like that?"

                        Excellent we can agree (and not in a name calling way). You are looking to your businesses self interest as your reason for protectionism, and its only natural. Kudo's on your business tiny or not, and while you use this so do bigger players. But protectionism is a massive cost which drives down quality and drives up prices. We are both evil capitalists looking at this from different sides of the economic protectionism.

                        "how does putting people in the country out of work, help the people in the country? It's mental."

                        Thank you. That is one of the arguments against protectionism.

                        "Either we maintain the same quality of food, so it costs us more, and our food production industry goes to the wall. Or we lower the qalitity of food so our food production industry goes to the wall."

                        First of all the protectionist tariffs on things we dont produce are stupid so scrap those. Second the EU uses quality regs as additional protectionist barriers which is where the chlorinated chicken argument left a lot of remainers red faced and looking sideways at their salad. With the removal of EU protectionism there are very few who claim food would be more expensive except where they use an asterisk and point out they mean from the EU.

                        "And you care because ? They are shit because they move around. Mate you're past the bottom of the barrel and excavating the damp earth beneath."

                        Really? It doesnt bother you that this supranational above political stupidity cant agree on a single place to set up? Instead costing the people to move every so often so they appease a couple of members? This bastion of intelligence and cooperation cant even agree where to park their arses costing the people 2 buildings for shits and giggles?

                        You can call that bottom of the barrel. I call it head in trough.

                        "We didn't join the Euro as Brown understood the Euro is a shit currency"

                        We can agree its a shit currency.

                        "The UK in not in the Euro and not in the EU and is in recession, funny how that works, it's almost like there are other factors at play."

                        First you cant be telling me you missed out on the global financial crisis which the EU made much worse on the Eurozone (shit currency as we agree). Second the UK, EU and many others are in recession due to covid. Are you claiming the US and UK didnt bounce out of the global recession while the EU almost fell into deflation? That would be an amazing claim to make.

                        "I'm just offended that these people could be described as left wing"

                        Thats exactly what I ment by left wing nerve. Its the same reaction some people have when suggested Blair was left wing, he was still to the right of Stalin so offends some people.

                        "it makes it impossible to describe corbyn as left wing when you content that the tories are left wing"

                        No it doesnt. Corbyn is most certainly much further left than the tories. As I understood it he is a marxist and mcdonnell a communist.

                        "It's investment"

                        Investment comes with profit return. That is why a lot of claims of investing are not so.

                        "The desperate people are refugees, not migrants. We have a proud tradition of helping people, see the"

                        No, you said people in dingys and they dont go far, basically you mean from France. Which you are either claiming is some unsafe shithole or that people sneaking over from there to illegally enter this country are economic migrants. We do have a proud tradition of helping people. That is why with Syria instead of inviting the country to move in we funded and supplied safe zones nearby so when the war is over they can go rebuild. The economic migrants trying it on tend to get sent out of the country-

                        https://www.continentaltelegraph.com/2020/09/casuistry-at-the-huffington-post-about-refugees/

                        "I cannot imagine that when fleeing for your life, you choose a destination based on the number of opt outs from the EU"

                        Very true. You instead go to the nearest safe country and apply for asylum as per the rules.

            3. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: You have it backwards.

              By the way, as per usual, you've not answered a single one of the questions RE the EU and the supposed lack of democratic accountability.

              All you've shown is that you thought Mandelson was a tool, as if it's an either or choice.

              It was a no deal from the start, as everyone paying attention could see.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: You have it backwards.

                @sed gawk

                "By the way, as per usual, you've not answered a single one of the questions RE the EU and the supposed lack of democratic accountability."

                Ignorance might be bliss but I did answer the question when you couldnt tell me the names of presidents of the EU (remember its not open book). You claim they hold our gov to account, but who holds them to account?

                "All you've shown is that you thought Mandelson was a tool, as if it's an either or choice."

                Actually you brought Cummings into this so I pointed out similar past problems in this country. Which I maintain is still not good reason for adding the same problems as another layer of gov above ours.

                "It was a no deal from the start, as everyone paying attention could see."

                Hoped so but was worried when remainers tried to hijack the result and impose their will like a bunch of fascists.

            4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              "I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, "

              Then you'd be like the big investors (because let's be real this was a "business opportunity" for them) who bankrolled this insanity.

              But such people always need "Facilitators" to help them achieve there goals.

              Which is what you seem to be. *

              *Or maybe you really are the true believer you claim to be. IOW a "Willing fool" as Lenin called you.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: "I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, "

                @John Smith 19

                The bit you quoted is what I responded to. And if he is so certain as he claims then he will surely make a load of money out of this as will a load of remainers. Assuming of course the economy goes to shit.

                "Then you'd be like the big investors (because let's be real this was a "business opportunity" for them) who bankrolled this insanity."

                The UK gov pumped extra money (from the tax payer) to support remain beyond the allowed financial rules. The gov directly threatened the population with a punishment budget if we didnt vote remain.

                https://briefingsforbritain.co.uk/the-money-behind-remain/

                1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                  FAIL

                  "https://briefingsforbritain.co.uk"

                  Wasn't that the old name for Dominic Cummins blog?

                  No more trustworthy than the Daily Heil.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: "https://briefingsforbritain.co.uk"

                    @John Smith 19

                    "No more trustworthy than the Daily Heil."

                    No refuting it then? Ok.

                2. sed gawk Silver badge

                  Re: "I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, "

                  I live here, and have British Citizenship, so I'm not in the position to benifit from the knowledge it's going to be bad.

                  If you look at the people in the ERG, there is a lot of capital betting on volatility. Some of those people own hedge funds.

                  If you cannot see the delta between these positions, you're unwilling to see it.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: "I'm going to make some money by betting on the economy going to shite, "

                    @sed gawk

                    "I live here, and have British Citizenship, so I'm not in the position to benifit from the knowledge it's going to be bad."

                    Hang on with the shock and awe as I pick myself up. Thank you so much, now can you go tell those moronic remainers claiming us brexit voters are in it for the money because you guarantee its gonna be shit but for some reason dont think you can make money on it. Although I would suggest looking into investments and foreign currency if you are so sure of your knowledge.

                    "If you look at the people in the ERG, there is a lot of capital betting on volatility. Some of those people own hedge funds."

                    And you wont be betting because you are certain! So get your money in there, all you can to take advantage of that volatility.

                    "If you cannot see the delta between these positions, you're unwilling to see it."

                    There is such a thing as a stocks and shares ISA (an Osborne thing) where you can invest tax free in investment funds!! And with your knowledge you will surely make a packet! Or go the non-ISA route and you have access to even more investment opportunities from individual stocks to a wide range of funds in all kinds of stocks, commodities and more.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You have it backwards.

        "Our rationale for staying in the EU is protection from of the "Incompetent government"."

        Sorry, you just get another layer of incompetent government on the top of the one you already have.

        EU is useful for many things, but it's totally incompetent as government. And corrupted to the hilt, Commission (every one of them) is basically for sale and, not only that, it's *totally legal*.

        Corruption isn't even a crime in EU management. Should tell anyone what the actual reason for it is: Making managers filthy rich. Everything else is a show for the masses.

        1. sed gawk Silver badge

          Re: You have it backwards.

          Again, we're passed the point of mere assertion, back up your claims.

          I'll start - Corruption - 12k to save 45million, that is both corruption and incompetence.

          https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

          That is a staggering theft from the public purse for a fraction of a percent, it's not just corrupt, it's a deliberate attempt to deprive one of the most deprived parts of London, funds.

          Find me evidence for your claims, because I don't buy it.

  16. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Phantom Brexit Downvoter

    I see quite a few posts on this topic have been downvoted

    1. Snapper

      Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

      Yup, there is always one who still believes that Brexit is a good idea, and wants to stand proud!

      FWIW I still think there are probably valid reasons for leaving the EU, but I've never heard them from the people who claim to have all the answers. The shifting goal-posts of the apologists for Brexit should all be written down and taught to schoolchildren of five or below.*

      *That is because they are made up of words of two syllables or less.

      1. sed gawk Silver badge

        Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

        Valid reasons for leaving the EU.

        Bankrupting the country so that your rich mates can make a killing, safe with the international citizenship's they've made sure to obtain.

        Oh you meant for the rest of us, not so much. We are fucked.

        Still blue passports(made in france), and fish( that we don't eat) and sovereignty(that the GFA makes impossible to wield in anyway).

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Bankrupting the country so that your rich mates can make a killing,"

          The more I look into the money funding the Leave campaign the more I saw people playing angles.

          Work out the impact on the British economy of a Brexit.

          Work out where to put your money to make profit on it.

          Then look at who did put money in those sectors.

          And remember currency speculators don't worry about up or down. They just need volatility. Like the kind you get in the chaos and uncertainty Brexit has caused for the last 4 years.

      2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

        Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

        I think he has two accounts, so he can downvote you twice. If he gets your number, you get mysterious downvotes on comments that are nothing to do with the 'B' word at all.

        1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

          Yep, that has happened to me. When I scared some brexitter with facts, all of my new posts and posts going back months were downvoted.

          Still, keeps them off the streets (a shame it doesn't keep them from voting!)

    2. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

      My money's on codejunky, they haven't seen fit to defend the indefensible in this thread yet, so it's the only thing they can do without embarrassing themselves.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

        @Uncle Slacky

        "My money's on codejunky, they haven't seen fit to defend the indefensible in this thread yet, so it's the only thing they can do without embarrassing themselves."

        Cute to have a fan club but I doubt its me. I sometimes downvote but for the most part stupid and wrong tends to look stupid and wrong with or without a vote. Interested to know what you think is indefensible? Without embarrassing yourself.

      2. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Phantom Brexit Downvoter

        Oh no, you looked into the mirror and said his name five times!

  17. Cynic_999 Silver badge

    World leading

    Britain is the first country to ever impose economic sanctions on itself.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: World leading

      >Britain is the first country to ever impose economic sanctions on itself.

      We have to teach them a lesson, being tough is the only language they understand

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: World leading

      @Cynic_999

      Eh??

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "Britain is the first country to ever impose economic sanctions on itself."

      Pretty much.

      They need to be taught a lesson.

      It's the only language they understand. *

      *Mostly that if you keep listening to puppets of Rupert Murdoch you start to think that what's good for RM is good for you.

  18. jelabarre59 Silver badge

    Beta run

    I'm glad you folks in the UK are beta-testing this secession-model for us, so when we need to split-up New York or the USA, we'll be able to see what you did wrong, and find our own unique things to mess up instead.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Beta run

      I recommend building some sort of wall between the elite, enlightened, educated, wealthy and socialist states and the money-sucking failures

      1. Snapper

        Re: Beta run

        'wealthy and socialist states'

        I think you mean 'wealthy and social-democratic states' don't you?

        Don't know many 'wealthy and socialist states'!

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Beta run

          My understanding from the Dear Leader is that states like California and Washington (the ones with the GDP of a major country) are basically North Korea?

      2. The Oncoming Scorn Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Beta run

        You assume there's a difference!

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    AIUI, for the first 6 months companies in the EU should be able to export to the UK using their existing systems for other non-EU countries; this is because the UK government has said it will not impose any tariffs or custom checks here during that period. However, if they want their lorries to return without risking long delays they will have to do so empty, which may increase costs and hence prices. Maybe they can "pre-declare" in the EU what they will be bringing back from the UK ?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Does anyone in the EU currently trade with a third country where there are absolutely no trade agreements between the two (see the "Trading with..." heading on each country or region page)? Perhaps they could get by by using North Korea's country code for exports to the UK in the meantime.

    2. Smooth Newt Silver badge
      Facepalm

      The WTO rules that the Brexit headbangers love so much are crystal clear that you cannot arbitrarily treat one country differently from another as far as customs and tariffs are concerned.

      If the UK attempts this, there will 165 non-EU countries demanding, and getting, compensation from the UK in the WTO's own version of the European Court of Justice, the Dispute Settlement Body, for the blatantly discriminatory treatment that the UK is meting out to them.

      1. sed gawk Silver badge

        There you go with those facts again.

        Stop talking down the country, the RoW will be trembling in anticipation of the "deep & special" deals, and will not dare complain, lest we show Johnny Foreigner the taste of cold steel[0].

        The RoW are clearly too thick and when all's said and done, not English enough to understand about contract law, unless some quisling remoaner enemy of the people should betray his country by informing the faceless European horde about the existence of courts.

        [0] As soon as we have managed to restart steel production here, jaj jaj cummings in his jaundiced gillet, is applying his mind to the problem, so it will be fine.

      2. Rich 11 Silver badge

        the Dispute Settlement Body

        Isn't this the one which is hamstrung at the moment, with Trump is refusing to complete membership nomination for the underlying Dispute Settlement Panel because he thinks the Panel has ruled against the US too often?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Obviously fake news! Farage and the other cronies say the WTO rules are great!

        You're just a puppet for that communist fascist sjw nazi dictatorship, the EU.

        "Rule Britannia..."

  20. Trubbs
    Pint

    Get Britain flying again

    Bring forth the flying trucks.

    Don't even think of saying it won't work, solutions only please.

    Only solutions will be accepted....

    It isn't denial honestly.

    The people have spoken, so now we make it work.

    So solutions please.

    Err

    Anyone?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Why don't we ask the EU to fix our IT systems?

      Over there, everything just works and projects are always on time.

      Without the EU, Britain could never manage to import or export anything.

  21. David Roberts
    Unhappy

    Should have

    Bought a field in Kent before the price went up.

  22. Version 1.0 Silver badge
    IT Angle

    It's wonderful, No more RED TAPE

    It's being replaced with BLUE TAPE.

    I don't see any point worrying about or discussing any of this because U-Turns are now standard government policy, what will happen on January 1st is completely unknown now and probably will still be completely in the dark on December 31st. Nothing surprising is happening, anyone who has working in the worlds import/export world knew that it was going to be much worse than a mess once the government got Brexit done ... and then we elected (cough, choke, spew) Boris.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Johnny Foreigner Trucking

    Won't be arsed if this is English language only software.

    There are 23 different official languages in the EU, adding them to this to "Smart Freight" will add at least another 18 months testing. I'm not sure Kent is going to be a large enough truck park.

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Johnny Foreigner Trucking

      They probably have a cunningcummings plan - the app will have a text to speech facility where the spoken word will be VERY LOUD and S-L-O-W.

      -->>Joke Alert. But I wouldn't put it past this government implementing that

      1. sed gawk Silver badge

        Re: Johnny Foreigner Trucking

        I would like to remind you that disclosure of sensitive government planning documents is an offence.

        There is no way you could have known this "plan" without seeing the above top secret documents.

        Shame on you for betraying your country in such a craven fashion.

        1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Johnny Foreigner Trucking

          Sometime in the distant past I may have signed the unofficial secrets act, so there is a chance I may get hauled up to the Old Bailey. May be Pamela Anderson will look in on me when she visits Assange at Belmarsh.

          1. sed gawk Silver badge

            Re: Johnny Foreigner Trucking

            I hope you're offered better treatment that that poor sod, who is starting to look extremely prescient.

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
  24. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "It might be November before we see a public beta test.”

    Or, as gov.uk seem to think of beta, before we see it in production.

  25. C. P. Cosgrove
    Thumb Down

    "The Smart Freight app will be up and running for January 2021 to minimise any potential disruption and help to ensure that only vehicles carrying the correct documentation for Member State border controls travel to ports. We are currently working with businesses and the haulage sector to ensure that the web application is effective and simple to use."

    That statement alone is enough to make me glad that I am a retired chauffeur routier. The contents of the rest of the article make me regret that I ever took up driving trucks in the first place. Having said that, I really enjoyed the several years I spent running around the highways and byways of Europe in the late '80's and early '90's, but then, with one exception - Calais was blockaded by fishermen - I always managed to get through Calais - Dover.

    Chris Cosgrove

  26. DS999
    Trollface

    Finally

    The US will no longer the most stupidly mismanaged and fucked up country in the world come January 1st

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Finally

      "The US will no longer the most stupidly mismanaged and fucked up country in the world come January 1st"

      We'll see that in November. If Trump is re-elected they've a very good chance to still be #1 despite major efforts in UK.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It will never happen...

    (...the software, that is). Sadly Brexit borders probably will....

    AC because a number of years back I had some involvement with the Digital Services at the Border project which which one part of a bigger aspiration for them to build a set of new systems, including pre-brexit freight management.

    Trouble was that the project, which had the focus of updating passport control technology at airports and other borders, was all designed around a set of invalid assumptions. At the core of these was an assumption that a passport was abject proof of somebody's identity.

    Senior people who'd been on the project for a long time before I got (briefly) involved were asking me really basic questions about identity documents - when I referenced the international standards documents for these, the lead architect hadn't even heard of them let alone read them. They were even believing that people's home addresses are stored on their passports (hint: they are not).

    For all of the great many people they had around - from managers to TAs to testers; they initially had just one solitary developer. He was a good guy, but more than a year into the project he hadn't got any specific designs to work from and was still experimenting with software frameworks and very general ideas.

    Other very senior people were dictating that whilst the new solution would be modern and use microservices and store everything in a massive Central, schema-less 'big data', they were also dictating that the solution had to be web based (without any consideration as to how they'd interface a browser app to a passport scanner with its proprietary Windows-only driver stack), it wasn't allowed to be a so-called single page application, and oh, by the way it also had to look and feel exactly the same as the crappy 20+ year old 'fat' client software that the operators were used to add they couldn't possibly all be restrained. This included Fn Key bindings which would affect modal windows and dialogs as well as various quirks and limited/truncated/missing data fields. (Cue Rolling Eyes emojii).

    I have to use several public government-developed web applications which are all invariably bad. Seeing the inner workings of just one over-budget project which seemingly hasn't delivered anything many years later ( I've no idea if the status of the project now ) gives me a glimpse of understanding as to why other government apps are junk, and certainly doesn't give me any confidence whatsoever that they'll have anything useful ready for Brexit day.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: It will never happen...

      abject proof?

      1. Rich 11 Silver badge

        Re: It will never happen...

        It's a lower standard of proof than normal, usually found lying in the gutter on a Friday night.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It will never happen...

          Ding ding we have a winner! Great comment - really made be laugh!

          1. Rich 11 Silver badge

            Re: It will never happen...

            Send a cheque to the usual address.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It will never happen...

        Umm, yes... Let's just pretend that didn't happen shall we...

        Perhaps "conclusive" or "absolute" would have been better choices.

        In my defence, the word "abject" does at least imply an extremity - I just never realised that it was only valid in the context of something really bad.

        I have learned something :-)

  28. Winkypop Silver badge
    Devil

    So little time and so many disasters

    To top it off the UK Government has just appointed ex-Oz PM Tony Abbott as trade envoy.

    You guys are royally screwed.

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

      Re: So little time and so many disasters

      They should have asked the distinguished antipodean Sir Les Patterson to come out of retirement. Less offensive and with an eclectic CV than TA

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Unhappy

      Re: So little time and so many disasters

      "You guys are royally screwed."

      Now tell us something we didn't know!

    3. dwyermic
      Facepalm

      Re: So little time and so many disasters

      Please, oh please, take Tony Abbott. We want him to be an ex-Oz. Take him and keep him.

      His record of achievement?

      1. Stuffing up the NBN (National Broadband Network) here by leaving it on copper cable in the ground.

      2. Being booted out as PM by his own party after only 2 years in the job.

      3. Overseeing a free trade deal with China that is now in jeopardy.

  29. Julz Silver badge

    If

    you want some data to base your rants arguments on:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826446/port-freight-statistics-2018.pdf

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: If

      "The importance of shipping and trade to the economy of the UK, an island nation, has resulted in the establishment of a large number of ports around the coast, which are very diverse in terms of size and type of cargo handled."

      A hair's breadth from "world beating". Hubris.

      1. Dave 15 Silver badge

        Re: If

        In terms of number of ports and docks sorting out a range of goods we are probably ahead of most.

        However this is just a yet another scare story. Get over it. We trade more with the rest of the world than with the EU, most of that trade is WTO as the EU has trade deals but largely with unimportant countries we do little trade with.

        Lets remember, we have a trade deficit, cutting the trade cuts the deficit, nothing to dislike with that. Replace those imports with home produced and be better off.

        1. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: If

          @Dave 15

          You write a lot of rubbish for a guy who apparently could use the internet to get informed.

          For the UK exports and imports are more or less like this.

          "Exports - partners:

          US 13.2%, Germany 10.5%, France 7.4%, Netherlands 6.2%, Ireland 5.6%, China 4.8%, Switzerland 4.5% (2017)

          Imports - partners:

          Germany 13.7%, US 9.5%, China 9.3%, Netherlands 8%, France 5.4%, Belgium 5% (2017)

          https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html

          EU trade agreements you find here.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

          https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-free-trade-deals-has-eu-done/

          The world consists of mainly small countries with a few exceptions and that goes for the EU too, or as the saying goes - with a few who tend to forget it at times.

  30. MJI Silver badge

    Lots of little inlets in Cornwall

    Time to up the level of smuggling.

    Could a ferry get up the Helford?

    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Time to up the level of smuggling.

      Mainland EU -> Republic of Ireland -> Northern Ireland -> Cardiff ?

      1. A.P. Veening Silver badge

        Re: Time to up the level of smuggling.

        Only if Wales gets out of the Union and rejoins the EU.

      2. A K Stiles Silver badge

        Re: Time to up the level of smuggling.

        Cardiff's a heck of a sea diversion from NI. Just go for Stranraer, subject to A.P. Veening's comment.

        I've long thought that the answer was surely for England to cede from the union, thus leaving Scotland, Wales and NI as 'the U.K.' in Europe where they want to be (Wales can make their own choice).

        But then the argument isn't actually about self-government, it's about Westminster government not having to be answerable to anyone else, whilst treating the 'lesser' folks of the member nations in exactly the way they claim and object that the E.U. are treating the U.K. All to ultimately line their own pockets and those of their mates.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Time to up the level of smuggling.

          @A K Stiles

          "I've long thought that the answer was surely for England to cede from the union"

          Why? The Scots voted to remain and that was their choice. Wales doesnt stomp their feet like the Scots so why would they not want the money. Similar situation with Ireland. So why would England be such a dick as to ditch the union which England pays for?

          "But then the argument isn't actually about self-government, it's about Westminster government not having to be answerable to anyone else, whilst treating the 'lesser' folks of the member nations in exactly the way they claim and object that the E.U. are treating the U.K"

          Scotland had a referendum to leave the UK, as did the UK to leave the EU. Scotland voted remain, UK voted leave. Are you suggesting a democratic vote should be won by the minority? That the minority of people should dictate the union?

          1. A K Stiles Silver badge

            Re: Time to up the level of smuggling.

            That would be the Scottish Independence referendum that the Tory government of the time spent a heap of money saying "if you leave then you don't get to be part of the EU - you can only have that if you stay in the UK" and then subsequently turned round and said "Well England and Wales have chosen to leave the EU by a narrow margin so the rest of you are coming with us anyway, no you can't revisit your previous decision" ?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Time to up the level of smuggling.

              @A K Stiles

              "That would be the Scottish Independence referendum that the Tory government of the time spent a heap of money saying "if you leave then you don't get to be part of the EU - you can only have that if you stay in the UK""

              Well that is factually true. That is Scotland only being in the EU as part of the UK. On its own it would not be allowed to join (the whacking deficit, Spain not wanting to encourage independence) and if it did would be an application as a new member without opt outs.

              If it makes you feel any better Britain was threatened with the punishment budget if we didnt vote the right way and the gov also spent time and a heap of money trying to rig the vote.

  31. reubs007

    Blitz spirit!

    My grandparents went through rationing and they loved it. I mean, we have far too much choice at the moment! Think how quickly you'll get round the supermarket when the only items available are turnips, potatoes and powdered eggs. And do people really need foreign medicines?! Cod liver oil made from British cods will do the trick!

    1. Dave 15 Silver badge

      Re: Blitz spirit!

      Egit

      Why do we have dutch tomatoes while some egit idiot planning bonzo is umming and ahhing over a company building greenhouses to produce tomatoes here? (esp as the company in question already has 2 UK sites). The fact is that we CAN grow stuff here, indeed we did - my great grandad grew toms, cues and even grapes (some of which went to the queen and earnt a thank you letter), this was done in what is now part of the splodge of London.

      We might well need to stop building sprawling housing estates over everything and start building flats as they do in countries like Germany.

  32. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
    Alert

    2nd January 2021

    ...quote in the New York Times from Douglas Bannister, chief executive of the port of Dover: “I am very, very confident that there will be no disruption on January 1st, primarily because it’s a bank holiday. But January 2nd may be a different question.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/06/brexit-useful-idiots-make-us-less-secure-trump-putin-xi

  33. Dave 15 Silver badge

    Please remember

    Lorries from here arriving at the continent are the continents problem not ours!

    Stuff arriving from abroad is what we are interested in, IF we decide to check none, some, all is OUR choice.

    Now, if the continent really stat making life difficult for us then we only have to retaliate... 1 guy employed to check incoming freight, 1 hour a day with an hour lunch break. NOTHING comes in and tough shite, they have the carpark issues.

    1. H in The Hague Silver badge

      Re: Please remember

      "NOTHING comes in and tough shite"

      Ermm, has it crossed your mind that production at most larger British vehicle manufacturers (Jaguar Landrover, Rolls Royce, Dennis Eagle, etc.) will grind to a halt within a few days (or even hours) of their supply lines being interrupted? Same applies to many other industries.

      And no, they' can't easily source those parts elsewhere or make them in-house, and even less so at an acceptable cost.

      I've got friends and customers in those industries - they're likely to get hurt and I'm really p**** off about that.

    2. Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble? Silver badge

      Re: Please remember

      Lorries from here arriving at the continent are the continents problem not ours!

      Stuff arriving from abroad is what we are interested in, IF we decide to check none, some, all is OUR choice.

      Now, if the continent really stat making life difficult for us then we only have to retaliate... 1 guy employed to check incoming freight, 1 hour a day with an hour lunch break. NOTHING comes in and tough shite, they have the carpark issues.

      And here it is everyone, Brexit in a nut shell.

      "Look, Nose, you've got to go, it's a simple as that. It's nothing against you as such, I just don't like my face."

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Please remember

      Well that's all right then. We'll take the high ground and throw our rattle out the pram and then scream. Meanwhile, back in the real world the supermarket shelves begin to empty & the petrol pumps run dry. Given a) France has much lower population densities and more 'spare' land and b) they have 26 friends to call on if they are worried of running out of Cheddar, France isn't going to loose that fight.

      Now - remind me - did the EU say our bananas had to be straight or bendy? I'm really looking forward to eating my new sovereign banana, but I don't want to inadvertently out myself as a remoaner by ordering the wrong curvature.

      1. H in The Hague Silver badge

        Re: Please remember

        "Now - remind me - did the EU say our bananas had to be straight or bendy?"

        Well, I actually read the regs. They say that "excessively curved" bananas cannot be sold as first grade (or something along those lines).

        However, you normally won't find them in the shops as the requirements of the British Retail Consortium (note: an industry body, not even unelected bureaucrats) are, on the whole, stricter than EU or UK product regulations.

        Anyway, I prefer apples and blueberries :)

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Please remember

      Are you a parody account?

      The stuff coming in is coming in because WE WANT IT.

  34. Potemkine! Silver badge

    Don't worry, everything will be AGILE, magically working on time with a minimal work to the great satisfaction to all users.

  35. Trollslayer Silver badge
    Holmes

    What about livestock?

    The UK exports livestock to the EU.

    Are they supposed to stay in these (yet to be built) lorry parks for days?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What about livestock?

      The brexit voting Kent residents should look after them!

  36. John70

    French Tradition

    Come 1st January the Calais workers will be on strike just to add to the misery.

    You know how the French love their strikes.

  37. Eclectic Man Bronze badge

    Just a thought - not all trade with the EU is by truck via Dover

    I wonder what airfreight are planning to do? Heathrow does handle quite a bit of freight (as do other UK airports), and has somewhat limited parking (compared to Kent). Of course not all of air freight into the UK comes from or goes to the EU, but they will have the same problems, plus, of course, some products go by air as they are perishable or urgent delivery.

    I expect someone has already mentioned this, but it is almost as if HMG did not have a completed, thought through and worked out plan for this Brexit thingy after all.

    I suspect that one of the problems is this current government's propensity to build everything from scratch anew, rather than looking around to see what is available that actually works, or could be made to work reasonably quickly, despite the fact of Not Invented Here.

    (Not expecting any replies or thumbs as there are now over 200 comments on this thread, and I confess to not actually reading all of them before posting, sorry.)

    1. Adrian 4 Silver badge

      Re: Just a thought - not all trade with the EU is by truck via Dover

      Easy - turn the runways into lorry parks.

  38. DenTheMan

    Revenge at last for the potato famine.

    Do not worry folks, our grandmaster Boris Baldwick Johnson has a cunning plan.

    We eat the pigs then eat the millions of turnips once destined for pigs.

    Thank god for our ruling sovereigns' great brain. All hail the turnip brain.

  39. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    The "Farage Garage" is open for business.

    Still a very fine turn of phrase.

    The reality not so much.

  40. trevorde
    FAIL

    Don't panic!

    Grayling's in charge of this one!

  41. BiffoTheBorg

    The peak time for Sea Freight is August/September/October and for Air Freight October/November/December so it will all be over by Christmas, i.e. before the deadline.

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