A bridge too far: Passengers on Sydney's new ferries would get 'their heads knocked off' on upper deck, say politicos As if we needed a reminder that joined-up thinking in government is rarer than hens' teeth, New South Wales has bought 10 River Class ferries that won't fit under two bridges in Sydney's Parramatta suburb if people are sitting on the upper deck. Well, they will – just – but a public transport association has suggested the …
The Goon show called it 65 years ago:
Seagoon:
Tell me, how do we raise the pier?
Moriarty:
Oh, don't raise the pier!
Seagoon:
What then?
Moriarty:
Lower the river!
Seagoon:
Gad! Genius! Absolute genius! But, but can you do it?
Moriarty:
Sapristi yacka-backakas of course I can. My partner, the Honourable Grytpype-Thynne is the greatest water remover in the world! Follow me!
For those who doubt that this would be possible, I seem to recall that Grytpype-Thynne and Moriarty successfully lowered the level of Loch Lomond by the simple expedient of getting Ned Seagoon to drink from it. While I concede that a Loch is not a river, their solution to the level rising was simply to make him drink faster and I see no reason why it wouldn't also work on the Parramatta River.
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Alternatively, bring in Danny and Rusty and the gang, threaten them appropriately, give then till next Tuesday or something, and they'll raise the bridge pillars...
In these days of hypernationalism the solution is simple.
Bring a nicely sized Australian flag onto the top deck and video it being chopped down and thrown into the water by the bridge. Faster 'n you can say 'votes' there'll boats returned, funds for proper Australian ferries being built provided for, etc. etc., done!
It will take a long time to actually build boats for those routes, but the return in votes will be immediate. Done!
"Dredge out the bottom so the sea level went down."
That, clearly won't work as water finds it own level...and dredging the bottom of the river will just allow more water to fill the gap.
"Or flood the bilges and lower the boat."
That makes more sense...as long as the bilges are large enough. Another option would be to add more ballast so the boat sits lower in the water
"Or replace all the bridges with London Bridge type opening bridges."
OK - that's the one - and as you thought of it first, so can you send them some money to cover the costs of your brainwave please.
PS I think you meant TOWER Bridge. :-)
""Dredge out the bottom so the sea level went down."
That, clearly won't work as water finds it own level...and dredging the bottom of the river will just allow more water to fill the gap."
You are thinking small. If you dredge deep enough then eventually there will not be enough water to fill the gap and job done !
Admittedly raising the bridge is probably less work.
"You are thinking small. If you dredge deep enough then eventually there will not be enough water to fill the gap and job done !"
I've heard people ask (here in Blighty) whether someone digging a hole was trying to get to Australia, so if those down under start digging in the opposite direction, they may meet in the middle. I'm not sure this solves the original problem however.
if you jumped down the hole you'd decelerate on the other side just in time to step out of the ozzies hole , air resistance not withstanding.
Even weirder , the same applies to any straight line tunnel dug thorough the Earth regardless of wether it goes through the centre. friction and air resistance not withstanding.
Well, air resistance, plus Coriolis effect, notwithstanding. The only places it would work like that are from one pole to the other. Anywhere else, you're going to have the velocity of the surface you jumped from, plus the acceleration accumulated since then, so as the velocity of the tunnel at your distance decreases linearly approaching the centre, and the horizontal component of your velocity stays the same, you're going to smash into the sides, and probably fairly soon.
Some of the more esoteric possibilities include tunnels with a zig and a zag in them to follow the path a falling object will take. If you ignore air resistance (again), it's not too hard to work out the appropriate shape of the curve.
"You are thinking small. If you dredge deep enough then eventually there will not be enough water to fill the gap and job done !"
You might be on to something there. When the ferries were ordered, sea level was lower, but due to climate change, the sea levels have risen and now the ferries are "too tall". If we dredge all the rivers and harbours around the world enough, that should drop the sea levels back to whatever we all agree is "normal". After all, it's been reported that the "pause" in sea level rise during the 70s and 80s was due to large numbers of massive damns being built, so there is precedent :-)
"You are thinking small. If you dredge deep enough then eventually there will not be enough water to fill the gap and job done !"
Well, the Parramatta River drains into the Tasman Sea - and hence is linked to the Pacific, Atlantic, Indian and every other ocean...
Also, one would need to dredge a VERY, VERY. VERY long way down to be able to drain most of the oceans.
A simpler way would be to just put in a "lock" (at an appropriate place) and thereby have control over the height of the inland waterway.
"Admittedly raising the bridge is probably less work."
Just a bit !!
A typical passenger ferry only sits in 5-8 feet of water. You cant drop them much ususally - a matter of a few inches usually or all sorts of breakages happen.
Also have to consider the bottom of the river/runagrounds if they go deeper.
Also may have to rengineer the docks at either end to have passengers get on and off - the access ramps need to be approximately level in rivers - in tides they may have to float to maintain a level. The problem happens then if other passenger ferries also need to use the same docks - obvious hilarity.
The cost of changing to swing bridges (and the disruption they cause) also needs to be factored into the life of the bridge. Swing bridges take years to implement, and cause disruption to traffic on a regular basis. The lifespan of a bridge is longer than a ferry, generally.
Finally, rivers change height too - every few years a flood (rarer in Australia than most places, I am sure) might add feet to the height of the river at times - again causing disruption to service. I do not like taking a boat under a bridge with less than 10 feet clearance for safety and sanity.... passenger ferries might do 10 knots or more down stream - thats a LOT of kinetic energy to hit a bridge from the side....
Scrap the ferries or modify them and fire the procurement team.
Having worked in the Australian government before, my theory for the likely cause for this was an elected politician (naturally unaware of the height requirements) deciding / influencing who got the contract.
In Australia elected politicians are not allowed to do this, the decisions must be made by 100% by public servants according to procurement rules. However the rules are frequently circumvented.
By default the procurement team remain accountable for the decision. And then we see comments in El Reg, social media etc about them getting beheaded as punishment.
London Bridge is a very boring 1970s concrete motorway bridge
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5085057,-0.0902752,3a,75y,102.16h,92.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ1R6us0iIXMkdNCDDWVGuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Are you sure you don't want the next bridge downstream which is Tower Bridge?
At least one of those bridges are the London Bridge opening type that are never opened anymore.
It's an uphill battle with sea level rising at 3.4mm per year.
Also for those unfamiliar with the Parramatta river, the section that the ferries travel in is is salt water and tidal. Drinking it is not recommended.
I expect the final solution will be the upper deck being completely blocked off on routes that go via these bridges. It will be too much hassle to get everyone off the decks in time on each journey, and having the boat creep under the bridge each time just in case someone was missed.
If every route goes via these bridges, then the upper decks will be permanently closed. Great value for money there!
I wanted to make the same point about the obvious solution being to close the upper deck. From the article that seems to mean losing just ten seats. Not sure what fraction of capacity that is but it doesn't seem such a bad deal if it saved having something bespoke built.
Mind you, clearance of a few cm seems a bit tight. I'd want at least 1 linguina.
It looks like a tidal river, you only need to close the upper deck at highest tide. Potentially only on spring and neap high tides too.
Bangkok cruise ships have the same problem on super-tides, they ask you to duck, and lower the speakers and poles. You duck, its a bit of fun.
This is not a big deal, its one of those 'how could they make such a stupid mistake' stories, when it looks like the press struggled to make a 'new ferries come into service' news item interesting.
"close the upper deck"
This is the solution
I've been on a few river cruises in Germany where the boat would not clear bridges without lowering all the upper deck hardware. Including the wheelhouse. All passengers were cleared from the deck and the nav lighting masts and radar were hinged.
then the upper decks will be permanently closed.
I dunno how things are down under, but up here we are told to keep a seat (or two) between us when we travel by mass-transit. (some virus lark or something)
So.... Shut down an entire deck and then throw overboard those who are standing too close to their fellow passengers.
Win-win.
The current govenment - who are engaged in pointless moves of existing buildings from the city to Parramatta - would think that is an excellent idea. It also gives them an exciting opportunity to extend the floodplain.
https://www.cityofparramatta.nsw.gov.au/recreation-environment/floodsmart-parramatta/know-your-flood-risk
When there was at thing called ‘tourism’ in the world, I did a cruise on the Nile river.
Enjoying myself on the top deck, I didn't understand what the fuss was about when the boat's employees started dismantling the tents that provided some well needed shade.
Then we passed under a bridge that I could touch with my hand if I'd wished to.
Watching more carefully, I noticed that every other boat we passed by also had those removable tents on top.
Never read about any accident resulting from that particular set-up, though.
The clearance is only a problem at high tide (and quite possibly only around the period of spring tides at that - i.e. full and new Moon). So the solution is to chain off access to the uppermost deck for ferry trips that take place during the period when the tide is too high. Which is likely to be two trips per day per ferry during part of the month. So not a particularly serious problem at all - but of course ripe for making political hay.
There is a long history of accidents where someone didn't follow the procedures. So we know that just having procedures doesn't work. There are various things that can be done to help, but they're not 100%. (E.g. aircraft pilots have lots of training, and checklists, and simulators, and still there are aircraft crashes due to pilot error).
For the ferry, it's worse - there will be tourists who may not speak English very well, there may be old or disabled people who can't see the bridge or need help to get down, etc.
My prediction, is that within 10 years of services starting:
* People will be injured when the boat goes under the bridge. The government will try to blame the boat crew or the passengers. But this is a completely foreseeable accident caused by poor management decisions.
* People will be killed when two of these new trains hit each other head-on in the tunnels. The government will try to blame a signal problem or the train driver. But this is a completely foreseeable accident caused by poor management decisions.
Note: They're only widening the tunnel so that the trains can go through without hitting their sides on the tunnel. They decided it was too expensive to widen the tunnel a bit more and move the tracks further apart, so they won't do that. So if trains go through the tunnel in both directions at the same time then the sides of the trains will hit each other.
I think it's still considered news-worthy when a high omnibus tries to drive under a low bridge, and... doesn't. In the UK anyway. I think we had one in Scotland this month, and a fatal one in Wales some time in the last year...?
It isn't every day, but it does keep happening, at ramming speed, and casualties are pretty much anyone on the upper deck except for particularly short children.
Yes, yes, buses and bridges both have signs on them all saying how high and how low they are. Perhaps that stops a lot of these accidents, but not all of them.
I think it's still considered news-worthy when a high omnibus tries to drive under a low bridge, and... doesn't.
Why am I suddenly reminded of the omnibus scene in Live And Let Die (James Bond)?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/bus-on-diversion-from-blaze-site-hits-bridge-6654706.html
The driver should have been reminded that on this diversion he should have kept to the centre of the road under the bridge; he should have been reminded by the 'low bridge' and 'tall vehicles should keep to the centre of the road' signs; should have been reminded by the road markings, the markings on the bridge and the lights under the bridge marking the safe route. It flattened the top deck down to the top of the seats but luckily only 6 were injured!
The 'keep to the centre of the road' is now reinforced by bollards that push all traffic to the centre
The Sydney Harbour Bridge was built by a British company, Dorman Long, to their own design. Even 86% of the steel was imported from the UK. Both the Union flag and the Australian flag (which would have been the old red one) flew from the top on opening day. The NSW government's contribution was the choice of site, which razed much of The Rocks and Miller's Point and turned the western edge of the CBD into a traffic sewer.
Melburnians spent 35 years pointing and laughing at the "coathanger" until Melbourne's own Westgate Bridge fell down during construction, killing many. It is a stupendously ugly bridge from many angles, including the iconic view from Brighton Beach. It was not until 1999 that Melbourne got a "proper" big bridge, the Bolte.
From pictures, I would nominate Brisbane's Story Bridge (1940) as Australia's most beautiful. I can't, right at the moment, go look at it in person to verify that.
Add some ballast tanks and dive planes to the ferries and have your new submarine ferry dive under the bridge! You'll have to caulk up the windows on the lower decks, but it could work!! OOGAA!!! OOGAAAA!!! DIVE!! DIVE!!!
(More seriously, I want to see how many times these ferries get delayed crossing under the bridge because people won't evacuate the top deck in a timely manner, or what happens during a combo of spring tide and a bit of a storm surge. )
... Open top bus tours in NYC.
The fascination with fairly low hanging traffic lights suspended over the carriageway are an ever present hazard to the tourist that wants to stand to get that shot of the Chrysler Building.
I was on one that went under a bridge in Brooklyn that was so low, that from a seated position you could touch the underside of the bridge (which was possibly carrying the BQE?). The bus did go dead slow and even stopped immediately beforehand so the tour guide could give us a final warning. Luckily I speak English, the rest of the tourists may or may not have understood.
"Minns slammed the outcome as "another national joke" that ranks alongside "intercity trains that don't fit the track, or the 'Ferry McFerryface' fiasco"."
Wikipedia on a related ferry fiasco, care of The Rt Hon. Chris Grayling:
"The announcement that Seaborne Freight had been awarded the contract caused controversy after it was revealed that at the time contract was signed, the company had no ships and had never operated any. Critics also pointed out that the Port of Ramsgate would need to be dredged before services could begin and raised questions as to whether due diligence checks had been undertaken before the award of the contract.[14] By 3 January 2019 dredging had begun in Ramsgate."
On hearing about Transport for NSW's troubles, Chris Grayling was later heard to comment:
"Look, it's not a goddamn competition."
There's a commonality in all of these things: they're all English-speaking countries.
It makes you wonder: are British people, and our colonial descendents, just exceptionally good at screwing things up in a world-class world-beating way (go us!!), or is it just that we don't hear so much about other nations' screw-ups because we generally never bothered to learn other languages and so don't pick up on similar media stories from other countries so much? Research needed!
" are British people, and our colonial descendents, just exceptionally good at screwing things up in a world-class world-beating way (go us!!), or is it just that we don't hear so much about other nations' screw-ups because we generally never bothered to learn other languages and so don't pick up on similar media stories from other countries so much?"
As the logician said:
oui
But Graeme Taylor, of Sydney-based consumer group Action for Public Transport, was unimpressed with the excuse. "They bought an off-the-shelf option so the thing doesn't fit properly," he said.
If only they had placed the order with a well known Australian shipbuilder right on their doorstep...
"Incat takes ownership of the customer’s specific needs ensuring on-time delivery of the right ship for the right job."
that in an alternate universe complained that they wasted kazillions on a custom boat construction when there were off-the-shelf solutions that would've been a tenth of the price and only required ten bucks' worth of red-and-white chain across the stairs about once every other week?
How about they remove all the seating and post 'no standing' signs on the top deck. With everyone on the top deck seated on the floor, if necessary they could just lean back or lie down as the bridge passes overhead. In addition, they could easily have everyone who goes up there sign a waiver which states they'll follow all posted safety precautions.
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