back to article UK smacks Huawei with banhammer: Buying firm's 5G gear illegal from year's end, mobile networks ordered to rip out all next-gen kit by 2027

D-day has finally arrived for Huawei in Britain: UK.gov will outlaw the purchase of Huawei gear to build 5G networks by the end of this year, and from 2027 the country's mobile networks must eradicate the Chinese vendor's kit from their 5G infrastructure. This decision was a long time in the making, and comes off the back of …

  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Timetables matter

    By the time of the next election, we will have implemented in law

    In other words, we're going to take our time over this and see how things on the other side of the Atlantic develop.

    By all means keep Huawei on a short leash, but booting them off completely makes little sense.

    1. JetSetJim Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Timetables matter

      Particularly as they are the hardware behind the new emergency services network.

      More delays, more cost.... Plus ca change, ....

    2. mark l 2 Silver badge

      Re: Timetables matter

      "By the time of the next election, we will have implemented in law, an irreversible path for the complete removal of Huawei equipment from our 5G networks."

      He clearly is under the impression that laws cannot be repealed if he thinks it an 'irreversible path'. But then again i wouldn't put it passed the tories to try and make it so any laws they pass while in power can't be repealed later if they loose the next election.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Timetables matter

        tories to try and make it so any laws they pass while in power can't be repealed later if they loose the next election.

        Can't be done due to sovereignty of parliament. Of course, what they still want to do is castrate the Supreme Court so that they can bypass parliament in the future: Johnson certainly hasn't forgotten last year's slapdown and they currently still have a large enough majority that is willing to go along with pretty much anything.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Timetables matter

        A process started by Tony Bliar, and he even went so far as to try to disband the House of Lords to prevent anyone interfering with his way of doing things. When told he couldn't dump it, he began filling it with his cronies instead.

        In fact, Labour were the first party to start imposing budget measures intended to last beyond the next General Election even though such things were specifically NOT permitted under Parliamentary legislation - until Labour forced through the change to allow it.

        It's not just the Tories who cannot be trusted - none of them can!

    3. Chris G Silver badge

      Re: Timetables matter

      I think it is more about capitulating to the Postulating Primate and those behind his actions while trying to cushion British telecoms a little and providing potential wriggle room for the possibility of the sanctions against Huawei either easing or going away completely.

      However, that is not going to happen, the US has always dominated the business previously and wil not stop until they think they have total control again, which probably will never happen, China has gone too far down the development road to stop now, Japan would love to have a resurgence, India and Pakistan are trying to develop their electronic industries etc.

    4. MrBanana

      Re: Timetables matter

      "see how things on the other side of the Atlantic develop"

      Don't you mean - we've been told by the other side of the Atlantic how things will develop?

    5. phuzz Silver badge

      Re: Timetables matter

      By the time of the next election

      Well there's the rub. Theoretically this Parliament has about another four and a half years to run, but we've had three in the last five years of "Fixed Term Parliaments", so I don't think I'd bet against the next election being sooner than that.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This will end in tears.

    Gammon flavoured, "Where are all the trade deals we were promised?" tears.

    HK plus this. Too much for there to be no Chinese retaliation. I just hope uk.gov are not planning any ineffectual sabre-rattling on China's back door any time soon ...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This will end in tears.

      JLR: half Chinese owned, expect to be moved out to the mainland. Tears in Solihull.

      Huawei R&D investment: what was that? Tears in Cambridge.

      US trade deal: junk food in exchange for our surviving companies.

      "We won, get over it."

      1. cyberdemon
        Devil

        Re: This will end in tears.

        > "We won, get over it."

        Yeah, exactly. That's where this all started: Brexit.

        The highly cynical borderline conspiracy-theorist nutjob in me says that this has all been a very clever ploy by Russia to weaken the west. They organised Brexit via a very sneaky social media psyop campaign, they possibly organised Trump through similar subterfuge, and now they want China and the West to start a war.

        I have no evidence for any of this.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This will end in tears.

      Why should freezing out Huawei anger China, unless that's a tacit admission that the company is in the pocket of the CCP?

      1. MiguelC Silver badge

        Re: This will end in tears.

        For the sake of the exercise, wouldn’t the British government be incensed if, let’s say, JCB was banned from selling its machinery in China? Would that automagically transform JCB into a government owned company?

        1. Outski Bronze badge

          Re: This will end in tears.

          Yes, they would be unhappy, but that's largely becasue JCB and Lord Bamford are significant donors to the Conservatives (and previously pro-Brexit organisations).

      2. StickThatInYourPieHole

        Re: This will end in tears.

        Care to explain your line of reasoning?

      3. Marketing Hack Silver badge

        Re: This will end in tears.

        Considering that the CCP seems to have grabbed and pretty much hold incommunicado a couple Canadian citizens over Canada's role in arresting Huawei's former CFO, I think the CCP is willing to go to the mattresses to put pressure on those who pressure Huawei.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: This will end in tears.

          It's not as if the US has ever done anything similar with regard to citizens detained in various countries…

          Canada got caught up the middle of trade spat between two important trading partners. It happens. Not going along with the farcical extradition proceedings isn't an option and China cannot lose face.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This will end in tears.

      HK plus this. Too much for there to be no Chinese retaliation.

      One could argue that the offer of citizenship was in response to China departing from the agreed upon "one country, two systems" model.

      Also, as a Brexiteer I welcome with open arms any HK national that wishes to flee the clutches of the tyrannical Chinese Communist Party. That's precisely the sort of path I had hoped Britain would follow as an independent nation.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: This will end in tears.

        "Also, as a Brexiteer I welcome with open arms any HK national that wishes to flee the clutches of the tyrannical Chinese Communist Party. That's precisely the sort of path I had hoped Britain would follow as an independent nation."

        And we were already able to do that as an EU member...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: This will end in tears.

          And we were already able to do that as an EU member...

          I never claimed Brexit enabled us to offer people from HK citizenship. I was simply countering the lazy stereotypes (xenophobic, racist, gammons etc. etc.) tossed around by those who still haven't come to terms with the result of a referendum held 4 years ago.

          1. Glen 1 Silver badge

            Re: This will end in tears.

            There are Brexiters in these here forums that think the EU is a racist organisation. By think, I mean use the accusation as covering fire. After all, it doesn't have to make sense to put folk on the defensive. Something about white majority countries.

            Ironic given that most of Africa has tariff free trade access to the EU ("Everything But Arms")... something the UK *won't* have unless a deal is sorted out.

            Doubly ironic given that the possibility of Turkey joining was given as a reason to leave... "Breaking point" wasn't it?

            As "project fear" aligns closer and closer with reality, you have to wonder at the thought processes of folk who are still in denial about the downsides.

            see also: the "Farage garage"™, expats complaining about "Brussels" potentially ending *their* freedom of movement, Sunderland being "unsustainable" in the event of no deal.

            I just hope I'm wrong about the lack of upsides, if only for the sake of those whos jobs will be affected.

            Sidenote: Its not just the "lefty" "woke" "snowflakes" (as an equally lazy stereotype) that think Brexit is going to be a shitshow.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: This will end in tears.

              >>There are Brexiters in these here forums that think the EU is a racist organisation.

              That is just alt.right gaslighting.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: This will end in tears.

              Sidenote: Its not just the "lefty" "woke" "snowflakes" (as an equally lazy stereotype) that think Brexit is going to be a shitshow.

              The left in the UK used to be anti-EU which makes sense since it's a neoliberal organisation that puts the interests of the big banks and megacorps ahead of the common man whenever it gets the chance.

              Had Corbyn, who was a committed and vociferous Bennite Eurosceptic for the first 30 years of his career, displayed some backbone, the last few years might have been very different.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: This will end in tears.

              "There are Brexiters in these here forums that think the EU is a racist organisation. By think, I mean use the accusation as covering fire."

              Never said the EU is racist. But when you consider that the EU Asylum laws specifically state Asylum Seekers MUST seek refuge in the FIRST safe country they reach, you should be asking why so many of them seem to reach the UK having passed through such countries as THE WHOLE OF MAINLAND EUROPE. Or why the French Navy seems unable to stop and board boats clearly completely unsuitable for crossing the Channel, but somehow manage to escort them into "international" waters and then notify the Royal Navy or the Coastguard that there are refugees in danger...

              And having managed to send 90%+ of the asylum seekers who arrive in France on to the UK, the French seem to be getting a lot of money from Brussels for supporting refugees and a lot of money from the UK to help prevent the refugees getting onto Eurostar trains or 'escaping' French beaches.

              How is that calling the EU racist?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: This will end in tears.

                >>>And having managed to send 90%+ of the asylum seekers who arrive in France on to the UK

                [sniff][sniff]

                Pure unadulterated brexit bullshit.

                Nigel, is that you?

          2. Apprentice

            Re: This will end in tears.

            I admire your stance, but sadly The Register comments sections regardless of topic, are inhabited by a lot of bitter opinionated remoaners, who will seize every opportunity to spout their hatred for Brexit, the government and anyone who loves their country. They often result to insults when their opinions are being challenged. There's no getting away from them. I read The Register forum because I love discussing technology, but that's being ruined by people who can't put their ranting political opinions to one side.

            1. Tithras

              Re: This will end in tears.

              You are happy to complain at people who think this country would have been better off staying in the EU and rather than accept that view you pull out the "remoaner" argument, what are you a Russian bot? The only people who will get anything good out of Brexit in the short term are countries which wanted to see the EU broken up i.e. Russia!

              Going through with a hugely expensive separation from Brussels when the country is so deep in debt and job losses already is the definition of stupidity, unfortunately people like you don't see that! While I may not agree with Brexit, and have accepted that the crap is going to happen, it should certainly be delayed until the Covid situation has been resolved!

              1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

                Re: This will end in tears.

                until the Covid situation has been resolved

                I forcast that that's not going to happen any time soon. Especially as the antibodies seem fairly short-term and we are yet to have a viable, proven vacciene.

                I speak as one of the very vulnerable (t2 non-overweight diabetic, have had a heart attack and am on immuno-suppressents because of arthritis - if I was technology I'd have been reprocessed long ago). Fortunately, my employer isn't going to be opening up the offices any time soon and is very sympathetic to people working from home until we do have a means of protecting ourselves from CV19. And I don't mean just wearing a mask either.

                1. W.S.Gosset Silver badge
                  Thumb Up

                  Re: This will end in tears.

                  OT: re heart

                  Co-enzyme Q10 supplements.

                  Bulk of your body's Q10 is used by your heart.

                  Massive benefit for damaged hearts, eg when prescribed after heart attack, reduces probability of second attack from ~75% to single digits. No interaction with any known heart medicine.

                  It's created by your body up until age 45-50 (as part of the same chain which creates cholesterol which is why statins cause sudden weakness then heart problems once your "reserves" are exhausted), after which production tanks.

                  Any healthfood shop, v.cheap

                  1. W.S.Gosset Silver badge

                    Re: This will end in tears.

                    Oh and re COVID-19:

                    Smoking reduces chance of catching it by at least 75%.

                    I recommend a pipe.

            2. ICL1900-G3

              Re: This will end in tears.

              "...but that's being ruined by people who can't put their ranting political opinions to one side."

              Including you, by the sound of it.

          3. John Robson Silver badge

            Re: This will end in tears.

            "I never claimed Brexit enabled us to offer people from HK citizenship."

            Well - you kind of did:

            "That's precisely the sort of path I had hoped Britain would follow as an independent nation."

            That's either claiming that it enabled it or you're saying that you're really glad you have seen a streetlight in the daytime, because now you can walk home.

            That referendum... the one which wasn't declared illegal simply because it wasn't binding.

            The one which, in the latest country wide poll (i.e. the election), returned just 46% for brexit supporting candidates.

            Ah yes, the glorious 46% majority....

            Much damage has been done - there are still those who wish to limit that damage.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: This will end in tears.

              "That referendum... the one which wasn't declared illegal simply because it wasn't binding"

              You mean the one we were promised since what, the 1980s? And which Tony Blair PROMISED would happen if his lot ousted the Tories under John Major? The one promised by Gordon Brown when he took over from Blair, and promised by the Tories but not held until Cameron realised he really could not put it off any longer without risking civil unrest?

              As for "legally binding", the only people who think this are those who LOST. Get over it. The Referendum was legal, and no amount of Remoaner rhetoric can change that.

              1. Outski Bronze badge

                Re: This will end in tears.

                Read the 2015 Act: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/contents/enacted

                There is nothing in the Act mandating what should happen in the event of a majority vote in favour of leaving the EU.

                Compare and contrast with the AV referendum in 2011, particularly the section on what should happen in the event of a Yes vote: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/1/part/1/crossheading/result-of-the-referendum/enacted

                Ergo, the 2016 referendum was advisory, otherwise a mandated course of action would/should have been included in the Act.

              2. nijam

                Re: This will end in tears.

                ... the only people who think this are those who LOST

                Well, the whole of the country, then.

          4. ridley

            Re: This will end in tears.

            Countering with an implied EU restriction that doesn't actually exist.

            Yep, sounds about right for a brexiteer.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This will end in tears.

        "Also, as a Brexiteer I welcome with open arms any HK national that wishes to flee the clutches of the tyrannical Chinese Communist Party."

        Obviously as a Brexiteer you've failed to read the underwhelming terms uk.gov are now offering to British Nationals (Overseas). Especially compared to the residency rights that were stolen from them pre-1997 by the Gammon fearing Tories.

        "That's precisely the sort of path I had hoped Britain would follow as an independent nation."

        Second class offers of a visa? Whoop-de-do Basil.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: This will end in tears.

        >One could argue that the offer of citizenship was in response to China departing from the agreed upon "one country, two systems" model.

        One should argue it is merely posturing - we don't have the resources to host even a small percentage of BNOs and pulled the rug from under a far smaller number of HKs who wanted to assert their legal rights to live here (they were already citizens) before hand back.

        Incidentally Hong Kong has has 8 (eight!) covid deaths in a pop of around 7 million with massive density, UK gov has killed off at least 45,000 people which is a rather more fundamental breach of human rights IMO.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: This will end in tears.

          UK gov has killed off at least 45,000 people which is a rather more fundamental breach of human rights IMO.

          The price of freedom is often the freedom to do stupid things. It's not really a surprise that the countries with the lowest COVID death rates are also the ones most able to force their citizens to follow draconian rules.

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: This will end in tears.

            countries with the lowest COVID death rates are also the ones most able to force their citizens to follow draconian rules

            Like the well-known dictator-state of New Zealand you mean?

      4. ridley

        Re: This will end in tears.

        What exactly was it about the EU that would have prevented the UK from offering HK citizens asylum/citizenship?

        That's right SFA.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pah, the UK is a growing irrelevance.

    Noting better for the world that making China more self-reliant in sourcing what it needs [<-irony], will be great for RISK-V, new chips seem to be coming out in spades.

  4. To Mars in Man Bras!
    Mushroom

    TL;DR:

    US: Jump!

    UK: How high?

    [Rinse and repeat ad nauseam]

    It never begins to amaze me how the UK is so much America's lickspittle that successive British governments are literally willing to sabotage their own economy & security, just to please their American masters. These are the same people who, seemingly without a trace of irony, spout phrases like "Taking back control", in relation to leaving the EU.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: TL;DR:

      Yeah, its a relative view. The US like to flex its muscles from an armchair whilst China likes to run tanks over its population, undertake mass suppression and 're-education' camps, whilst 'disappearing' honest scientists. I may've missed a few things. Oh yeah, no attempt at democracy whatsoever.

      So not overwhelmed by control by any other nation-state but when it does happen I have a clear pragmatic preference.

      1. BrownishMonstr Bronze badge

        Re: TL;DR:

        Err..What?

        I don't think the British Government have had a change of heart over Huawei as much as they feel they've been forced to reconsider their option. Especially when it would increase costs and delay the 5G roll-out. Costs might not be too important, but they wouldn't want 5G to be rolled-out late, not when it's the equivalent of waving your big dick to the world in full display.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: TL;DR:

          "not when it's the equivalent of waving your big dick to the world in full display."

          No, Trident is global big-dick waving. 5G roll-out is more like telling the world it's Netflix 'n' Chill night.

      2. ridley

        Re: TL;DR:

        As opposed to the yanks, with poodle Britain in tow, invading countries hither and thither.

        Remind me again how many countries has China invaded in the last 100 years..

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: TL;DR:

          Almost everyone that they border:

          Soviet Union,

          Vietnam

          India

          South Korea (as part of the Korean War)

          Tibet (annexed and still illegally occupied)

          Ongoing attempts to seize the entire south China sea, stealing territorial waters from Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines and a few others

          Plus

          Threats to annex Taiwan,

          Disputes with Japan

  5. ARGO

    Logic?

    So Huawei are (eventually) banned from providing 5G base stations - where all the traffic is strongly encrypted - but not from the 2G & 3G networks where the encryption is rather more ropey.

    And this is about security you say?

    1. alain williams Silver badge

      Re: Logic?

      And this is about security you say?

      Security has always been the excuse; this is more about trade and politics. Having said that I know little about the latest GCQH report.

      1. Yes Me Silver badge
        Facepalm

        Re: Logic?

        Of course it's about trade, but sadly the logic is utterly flawed. What's happening is that the US (Dems as well as Trumpettes) has given China a strong message: develop your own semiconductor supply chain, right back to the rare ores mined in developing countries. So 10 or 15 years from now, China (including Huawei) will simply laugh at US sanctions and they will be making cheaper, better stuff just as they are today, with no dependency on Western industry. The current trade war is just a minor glitch for them.

    2. Julz Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Logic?

      Of course it's about security, just not in the terms you are thinking. Just broaden your scope of thought to include all of the national security issues that might occur if we seriously pissed off the left ponders.

  6. Paratrooping Parrot
    Black Helicopters

    Who should have our data?

    Maybe the UK wants to give all our data to the US and will therefore fill up the whole network with Cisco switches to hand over all data to the US.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Who should have our data?

      Expect the (French) champage corks were popping in Maryland (NSA HQ) and elsewhere on the success of a FUD campaign - its business as usual: eavesdropping on the world's digital communications...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Who should have our data?

        >Expect the (French) champage corks were popping in Maryland (NSA HQ)

        Surely the White House will only allow the consumption of Freedom Wine™® from the USA on security grounds!

    2. Annihilator Silver badge

      Re: Who should have our data?

      Yep - presumably if China was part of Five Eyes, it wouldn't be a problem.

  7. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Isn't it great to have taken back control so we can do just what Trump tells us to do.

    1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

      It is amazing that anyone thought it would be different.

  8. Richard Jones 1
    WTF?

    Fairly Happy

    I am happy not to have the criminal CCP providing or tapping off my service. Though I should point out that at the moment mobile service is so ropey that callers foolish enough to call the mobile have to be told to call the landline. I guess nothing much will change on that front and that nothing was really expected to change either. I did see the 5G forecast charges, so no, nothing will change for me least of all that market segment.

    At least Wi-Fi allows mobile data, though I seriously prefer a 23-inch screen, over a postage stamp on the mobile. Still, Wi-Fi does allow the mobile to update, frequently.

    1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

      Re: Fairly Happy

      Yes, now you only have the GCHQ, NSA, CIA and FBI to worry about.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fairly Happy

        And Facebook, whose data is presumably for sale to the highest bidder. And the second highest, and the third...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fairly Happy

      Have you noticed who makes most of the BT equipment in your home and in the street cabinet, Huawei again

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hey Boris I thought you wanted to be King of the World!

    Not court jester of the orange one...

    - So we already have the American style student course fees which are just great to build up the brains of our nation.

    - About to get chlorinated chicken and who knows what hormones in beef.

    - Technology? Yay lets pay more for less, as long as some rich people line their pockets, go nationalism!!!!

    - NHS? Have you heard of the horror stories of people going in for a simple checkup and ending up with a bill easily over 50,000USD?

    Lets not forget who f**ked some many people's pensions in 2008, and Blair acting as Bush's little puppy dog not only destabilised the middle east, but was a poison pill for their ratings.

    How about we go about British exceptionalism by being British rather than copying a country who celebrates their violent independence from us every July the 4th, you know the date where a load of British people might get really ill because of reasons....

  10. simpfeld

    Terrible Decision

    No Huawei security issues shown by GCHQ testing or anyone else for that matter.

    Plenty of security issues shown in US originated equipment (Cisco, Juniper, encryption standards with introduced weaknesses).

    Yeah, cause UK intelligence sensitive information is travelling over mobile networks without end-to-end crypto, if so that person needs firing.

    Of course we didn't want to annoy the orange one, but I guess we are keeping our options. The Chinese leader may tell him he's great and allow him to open a few hotels and Huawei will be okay again.

    1. spold Silver badge

      Re: Terrible Decision

      Indeed - Huawei should have hired a really credible Global CISO to counter some of this fud, even better someone who might know GCHQ chappies.... oh wait... https://www.huawei.eu/profile/john-suffolk

      1. TheInstigator

        Re: Terrible Decision

        Just because he worked for Huawei doesn't necessarily mean he had their best interests at heart.

        Also - not sure if it's him or another one of the senior Huawei bods - but one of them resigned upon the news.

  11. TheInstigator

    I read this article :

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53080113

    with interest. If Huawei poses an actual & realised threat to Western national security as implied - i.e. ""There's no question that information from Huawei routers has ultimately ended up in hands that would appear to be the state," Mr Schmidt added.", then why not throw the gauntlet down and publish the data?

    Actual proof of an actual event would have a much greater effect to the adoption of Huawei technology than whispers and inference of wrongdoing.

    1. martinusher Silver badge

      >Actual proof of an actual event would have a much greater effect to the adoption of Huawei technology than whispers and inference of wrongdoing.

      There is no proof. There never was. This is merely PR spin and it makes a laughing stock of the UK, it comes off as some backwater where it really doesn't matter if it gets state of the art kit or not.

      1. TheInstigator

        Agreed - although the reference that Eric made has got me thinking ...

    2. ridley

      Because that is a squirrelly statement that gives the impression that it us the data flowing through them that has appeared in the states hands rather than say the routers ip address or the like.

      Isn't 5g data encrypted? If do how can a router be a security risk?

      1. TheInstigator

        If 5G data isn't encrypted as standard, I'm sure there's an option to.

        The question I have is that the said "data" must have also made it's way through lots of other routers and servers and physical communication lines as well - what's to say it wasn't compromised there?

  12. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Cui bono ?

    Country to be hit with £2bn cost, massive tech delay after firm 'materially compromised' by US's latest sanctions

    Uncle Sam exercising ye olde gangster protection scam against virtually anonymous and practically invisible phantom foe which are anything but phantom in warranted punitive retaliatory response.

    And the UKGBNI their cuckold is not a great fickle fairy look, is it? What is Parliament thinking? In whose name are they acting ? Certainly not the electorate surely? And definitely not on the advice of national intelligence services or GCHQ? So ...... WTF???

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cui bono ?

      Back handers, lots of them.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Orangeade

    Hmm. I think we all know which orange apparition has been pressuring the UK to do this and it looks like ol' Boris has bent over. Needs to grow a pair and tell the USA that they are NOT rulers of the world. Everywhere I read about this, it looks so political, it's not true. All done on not one jot of spying evidence, I understand - just old Trumpy boy's "feelings" and paranoia. Pathetic bunch.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Orangeade

      It's not even thst.

      Remember, Orangeman said he'd reduce the restrictions on Huawei if they gave him a sweet deal on trade tariffs.

      1. Yes Me Silver badge

        Re: Orangeade

        And assuming America does the right thing in November and ejects The Orange One from the White House, we might at least re-enter a phase of logical and reasonable discussion. So if I was running a UK telco, I'd not be hurrying to change my plans just yet.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Orangeade

          Won't matter if they do, Democrats, including Biden, are all for a China crack down. As for trade, Biden may not be in any rush, given Obama's original warning about a Brexit trade deal being at the back of the queue. Even if he does continue negotiations, a trade agreement without some concessions on agricultural is will be politically untenable.

        2. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

          Re: Orangeade

          we might at least re-enter a phase of logical and reasonable discussion.

          And who would be doing that? Creepy sleepy demented Joe or his 'lock up poor parents for truancy' (probable) VP Kamala Harris (who in turn is fully funded by cackling Hillary 'we came, ww saw, he died' Clinton?

          The US is a corrupt oligarchy, which is the reason that people actually voted for Trump after 8 years of the moderate republican Obama.

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Orangeade

            The US is a corrupt oligarchy, which is the reason that people actually voted for Trump

            .. in order to increase the corruption, decrease the ability to actually look after the poor and to ensure the rich get even richer?

            1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

              Re: Orangeade

              Mate. It doesn't matter who you vote for. Both parties are bought and paid for.

              Just like a lot of Brexit voters, anyone who appears against the status quo is able to get elected (once).

              A lot of the people who voted for Obama because he was offering hope for change, voted for Trump after the huge disappointment he turned out to be.

              The whole thing is rigged, you can't win, which is why people again are being urged to vote for the lesser of two evils. Had some hope for Bernie, but it seems that he'd rather be friends with Sleepy Joe than stick his neck out and bring about real positive change.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    momentous decision, potentially

    we climbed off the fence at last, with a little prodding from our cousins so... chlorinated chicken ahoy! ;) Perhaps the cunning plan is to turn UK into an off-shore Hong-Kong after all, not that "our dear European partners" will applaud. We shall see.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: momentous decision, potentially

      Chlorinated chicken is bad but chlorinated bagged salad, available across the EU, is fine, apparently.

      1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

        Re: momentous decision, potentially

        Oooh, look - contrarian AC! Label as troll and ignore.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: momentous decision, potentially

          Oooh, look - negative opinion on the EU. Must Downvote.

          It's not just Boris & co that are bending over to outside propaganda!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: momentous decision, potentially

        "Chlorinated chicken is bad but chlorinated bagged salad, available across the EU, is fine, apparently."

        Someone doesn't understand the issue ...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: momentous decision, potentially

          Someone doesn't understand the issue ...

          Care to expand oh wise one?

          As far as I can tell the Americans wash their chickens in chlorinated water to remove any nasties prior to packaging. In the EU the supply change is supposedly set up to produce cleaner chickens which don't require this last step. That's fine if strict hygiene standards really are in place uniformly across the continent, but I think that's quite an assumption to make knowing the behaviour of certain member states that often have a rather liberal interpretation of the rules.

          The American way guarantees the chicken is safe for human consumption and, as mentioned previously, there really are no health concerns with this cleaning process else bagged salads, which are treated in exactly the same way, would also be banned in the EU.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: momentous decision, potentially

            Still missing the point. You seemed to almost grasp it at one point, but your warped EU hatred finally got the better of you.

      3. Kevin Fairhurst

        Re: momentous decision, potentially

        Yes we must chlorinate the salad to disguise the shitty conditions it has been reared in, rather than raise lettuce welfare standards!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: momentous decision, potentially

      truth is, Britain's fucked either way of the fence. Side with Trump (or post-Trump), and you get "preferential" deal. Given the size and ways both economies are operating, not hard to imagine how "fair" it's gonna be. Climb down the Chinese side, and sure, we might get 5G and benefits, plus Chinese students coming and paying for trophy university diplomas (at least until the point their system catches up and overtakes ours), plus "investments that protects valuable British jobs". But isn't it how it works with all satellite states, i.e. they circle around a bigger body?

      1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

        Re: momentous decision, potentially

        Chinese students coming and paying for trophy university diplomas (at least until the point their system catches up and overtakes ours)

        Too late mate. Only reason for foreign students to go to Oxford is the prestige the name (still) carries.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: momentous decision, potentially

        You seem to think it's just about politics.

        How about ignoring the bullshit from either side, and simply buying the cheapest, most advanced, and reliable tech out there.

        We're handicapping our networks to appease the orange-man-child.

        We could avoid that not to please China, but in an effort to make our technology world class.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's funny buying it will be banned at year end, I'm sure something else is happening at year end but I can't put my finger on it right now. Maybe something that requires a shite trade deal that can be pushed as something to save all face from it being the complete and utter fucking shambles it's going to be?

    1. idiottaxpayerhere previously ishtiaq/theghostdeejay

      @AC

      I'm sure something else is happening at year end but I can't put my finger on it right now"

      It's called Christmas and New Year holiday.

      Cheers... Ishy

      and my next phone is now definitely going to be a google free Huawei instead of an iPhone

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Puerto Rico?

    Well, we're being ruled by orangeman already, and we aren't even a US state yet.

    Mind you, he's already treating us pretty shitily, so maybe we're the new Puerto Rico?

    1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

      Re: Puerto Rico?

      Well be lucky to get treated as well as Puerto Rico. This is another shitty power-play on the part of the USA

      1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

        Re: Puerto Rico?

        Is the power on there already?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Puerto Rico?

      Why did you think you'd get good treatment? Trump doesn't treat anyone well, not even Americans (covid response or rather the active denial it's even a thing except when it's to bash China for example), and he only supported Brexit cause he doesn't like the EU.

      1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

        Re: Puerto Rico?

        Trump doesn't treat anyone well, not even Americans

        This is not purely a Trump thing. Under whose watch did 4 million people get kicked out of their homes after the last economic crash?

        Who further militarised the police?

        Who stood idly by and would 'see how things played out' regarding standing rock and earlier clashes with the militarised police?

        Disappoimtment in Obama was a direct cause for idiot Trump to be elected. The other was that Hillary is such a psycho that next to her Trump actually looks somewhat sane.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Puerto Rico?

        As the AC you're replying to, I never did think Trump would treat us well. My comment was phrased that way as a comment to the brexitters who do/did think that.

  17. deaglecat

    year end ? well, lets stock up now on Huawei gear and then slowly retire it over the next 7 years. Short term sales boom perhaps.

    but in reality... this is naked US trade and foreign policy...implemented by proxy by their UK bitches... dressed up as security.

    contemptible.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Banning Huawei makes UK networks more vulnerable and more expensive

    Any provider worth it's salt would build at least two different vendors across it's core - e.g. Cisco and Huawei. This is so that any bug that hits a single vendor only effects half of the network. If it's built right that would only result in a lack of resilience rather than an impact on service.

    So what Trump's done is he's blocked the export licences of various encryption standards owned by US companies to China. Rather than write their own Huawei just bought them in under licence. Without this licencing agreement in place they cannot run encryption standards that allow them to interface with other vendors. It's not that Huawei are using some kind of Chinese spy code - they are using code written by and patented by US companies. Now Trump's stopped that.

    So the result is we just have one US vendor who can charge what they like and absolutely no resilience against bugs. There is no increase in security since as before they are running US written encryption standard code - if it's got a back door it'll be to the NSA not Beijing. Some minion in GCHQ has obviously been asked to brief the Govt on the impact of Trump's ban and the answer has been - well you can't have Huawei in the network running unlicensed software and this has been spun into some kind of security vulnerability. It beggars belief.

    All because Trump screwed up big time and needs to blame China for corona-virus in an election year. And all because Boris is a spineless oaf desperate for Trump to win a second term and bale him out with tins of chlorinated chicken when his no deal Brexit hits the fan in January.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Banning Huawei makes UK networks more vulnerable and more expensive

      Huh? Whilst I agree about Trump and his motives, the ban has got bugger all to do with crypto licenses or patents.

      There are none in practice. And even less that are USA controlled. Encryption on the internet would be screwed if there were.

      Even the new proposed SNOW-V designed speccifically for 5G is a) not American. B) Free to use

      https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2020/6/encryption-in-virtualized-5g-environments

  19. gwp3

    So who is going to pay for this? BT et al being forced to rip out kit bought and installed legally - I expect BT can afford good lawyers.

    1. Yes Me Silver badge
      Holmes

      What a silly question

      Dear gwp3,

      You ask who is going to pay for this. What a silly question. You, the user, are going to pay for this. Did you think it would be young Boris and his best friend Donald?

      Yours,

      A. Cynic

  20. Maximum Delfango Bronze badge
    Boffin

    They've made various "home hubs" for BT...

    Enough reason to punish them in my book.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: They've made various "home hubs" for BT...

      I believe precisely one variant of hub was made for them by Huawei. Sagemcom seem to have far more of a look in (they made the Hub 5, infamous because it is relatively easily flashed to OpenWRT)

      Huawei CPE is a lot more common in other ISPs (notably TalkTalk) and a lot of the mobile broadband / mifi type devices are theirs. If you are lucky enough to have Openreach fibre to the home, there is a very high chance the ONT is made by Huawei too. The older "Openreach white modems" for FTTC/VDSL are predominantly Huawei.

  21. Securitymoose
    Black Helicopters

    You have to have 5G

    Like you have to build bypasses, (and the rail link to Birmingham, just when people are shunning public transport big time.)

    Who is going to benefit from the rollout? The spy culture, that's who, keeping track of everyone and everything.

    5G going to cost billions? Scrap the idea and spend the money on the NHS and better broadband links instead.

  22. Evil Genius

    USA: Well done my loyal vassal. Banning Huawai pleases us greatly.

    UK: Why thank you, My Lord. Now, about this trade deal...

    USA: Yes, of course my minion. Here, have a chlorine washed chicken. No need to thank us.

    UK: Errr.

    USA: I said no need to thank us.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If security and national interest really were the issue...

    Why did uk.gov allow the (actual) Chinese state to take over Britain's largest oil fields?

    https://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-cnooc-largest-oil-operator-in-scotlands-north-sea-2016-8

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: If security and national interest really were the issue...

      More importantly... build/run our nukes

      unproven Chinese reactors... what could possibly go wrong

      1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

        Re: If security and national interest really were the issue...

        Sidelining for a moment the now-questionable decision made years ago to allow China to partner the Hinkley Point C and Sizewell C reactor projects...

        Pretty sure BWR designs are already well proven. These new ones need less uranium. Yeah China has a stake in the project; that doesn't change the basic design being proven.

        But I say never lets facts get in the way of a good rant.

  24. Cliff Thorburn

    Kind of reminds me of the scenario of being in bed with the mistress and the husband walks in.

    Again, Blighty being the proverbial pork chop man in the middle, lining its nest from both east and west, unable to decide which is best, alas the one to tries to please everyone pleases no one at all ...

    http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/uk/other/journals/Script-ed/2006/3_1_SCRIPT-ed_15.html&query=genetically+modified+human&method=all

    1. RPF

      The wife is in bed with the mistress? Time to join in!

      Dayam that's an image to savour :-)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Plot item in a Kingsley Amis book in which the very unpleasant lead character tries to organise a threesome with his wife and mistress only to have them take one look at one another naked and have passionate Sapphic sex, excluding him completely.

        I'm not sure how it relates to Huawei, though. It would kind of work if post November the US chummies up to the EU and leaves the UK out in the cold.

  25. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    Reading loudmouth politicians spouting off about Huawei is annoying when you know these politicians have absolutely zero technology knowledge. I mean, Dido Harding is a tech goddess to these morons.

    1. ARGO

      Yeah, it's amazing how many politicians are suddenly experts on network design. And yet in 20 years in the industry I've never run across any of them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        There is at least one - Chi Onwurah for Labour.

        She's a Chartered Engineer and did stuff at Ofcom just before becoming an MP, so is likely more switched on than the bores on the blue side

        1. ARGO

          She's probably the closest to it, but has experience in fixed broadband not mobile. And her pronouncements suggests she knows nothing about 5G security mechanisms or network architecture.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Given that much of the fixed network is based on Huawei equipment it's possible she's had a run in with it - and her role as "Head of Telecom Technology" at Ofcom presumably includes the mobile side too.

            I don't think you can aim for perfection here - unless a GCHQ/NCSC/HCSEC spook decides to go political you're not going to get someone who has coal face experience with the security implications. Despite the obvious reliance on telecommunications networks, there aren't that many of us working in the sector, let alone those with political aspirations

        2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          There is at least one - Chi Onwurah for Labour.

          There are over 100 MPs with STEM backgrounds: 57 Tory, 36 Labour, and a smattering of others: https://www.sciencecampaign.org.uk/engaging-with-policy/science-in-westminster/mps-to-watch.html

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            I assumed the OP was referring to people with a network engineering background.

            Not sure that a medical doctor or chemist or mechanical engineer will be able to weigh in on a cybersecurity topic.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            A "qualification" to be listed seems to include membership of the S&T Committee which seems to be a fairly low bar. There are also former shadow science ministers there. Unless the shadow ministers are better qualified than their govt. opposite numbers that's a very low qualification indeed. And there's at least one person double counted.

  26. Potemkine! Silver badge

    The poodle is back

    Krusty Trump ordered, Bozo Johnson complied.

    Now that the UK is not european anymore, their US masters are in charge.

  27. Fursty Ferret

    I have to be honest - my feeling is that the anti-Huawei sentiment in the USA is purely and simply protectionism of the Apple brand. And I still think that.

    I did raise an eyebrow at the rhetoric that came out of Huawei / China in the last fortnight over this, in particular the evil-villain "you'll live to regret this" sort of stuff. I appreciate that this sort of flowery language is very much a Far East thing exacerbated by translation into English but it probably didn't help public perception here (we are, after all, a country that is so monumentally stupid a large proportion of people think face masks are an attack on their personal liberties).

    Ultimately I think that if China wants to know about vulnerabilities in our telecommunications networks the most reliable way would be to find the person who installed it and hit them with a big spanner until they divulge the details.

    The other possibility *dons tinfoil hat* is that Huawei refused to allow GCHQ to install their own backdoors in order to spy on UK residents and citizens.

    [Speaking as the owner of a Huawei Mate 20 Pro, nearly two years old now and still demolishing the competition].

    1. TimMaher Bronze badge

      I’m not sure that you are really following this one @Fursty.

      No one has said we can’t buy their phones and I think their consumer goods division is quite separate from their infrastructure makers so this is probably not about Apple (unless BT are now installing Airports in their cabs).

      However, it very definitely is about Hong Kong, irrespective of any influence being wielded by the Orang One.

      This is a political dispute now and we should ban all of their kit. IMHO.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Brand damage is quite likely to carry over to the consumer division though.

        "Why would I buy a handset from them when the government says they're dodgy?"

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Trade Deal

    When we finally "get Brexit done" at the end of the year, we will need a trade deal with China, or end up on basic WTO terms. At that point I expect China to require access to UK markets for technology products bundled together to include 5G. Boris (on behalf of a one term Trump) will try to keep 5G out and as a result we will have no trade deal.

    There is an awful lot of stuff that we want and need from China. Not just finished products but components. We may well end up learning a few nasty facts of life. When it comes to fights, size and power matters

    Population UK 67 Million. Population China 1,393 million

    GDP UK 2.855 trillion USD. GDP China 13.61 trillion USD

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    CPNI / GCHQ

    Surely the 5G network is critical infrastructure so should be reviewed by CPNI and GCHQ for threat assessment.

    Lets get away from political pandering and more on the actual threat assessment.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: CPNI / GCHQ

      I'm afraid you failed the test - as do almost all of the journalists, politicians and pundits.

      Anyone referring to "the 5G network" shows their lack of subject knowledge in three words.

  30. kernel_panic

    What a load of nonsense

    Irrespective of anyone's political's stance, the way forward always was to define and agree on a wider 5G (and future Gs) standard for all carriers and vendors, comprising a comprehensive list of risks and mitigations to cover all key use cases and then let customers decide based on their risk appetite. It's not rocket science. We have it for other industries so why not just get on with it and cut across all the FUD?

    Also note the UK ban itself is on the basis that NCSC stated they can no longer assure control over Huawei BECAUSE of the new bans imposed by the US. So in essence they're technically correct. The root cause is elsewhere and is painfully obvious it's driven by politics and business as Mr. Orange is yet to publish some hard evidence.

    By 2027 when we finish removing 5G kit Huawei will likely be on 6G or perhaps even farther ahead.

    Oh well..

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    “delay the rollout of 5G”

    That's mainly down to the government, who have had the reports and could/should have made the decision months, possibly years, ago when the companies were thinking of ordering their kit for 5G

    For beancounters the value of 7-year-old kit should be near zero, but they will see the cost of replacement that kit, rather than leave it in place until it fails

    (and there will always be one forgotten site discovered to be still running ancient kit decades past that deadline)

  32. MrBanana

    Ban all Huawei kit

    So, no Huawei kit allowed on the UK network infrastructure - does that mean I now have to turn off my Huawei Mate 9? Or can I still spend the rest of the year supposedly sending national secrets to China?

  33. Cogwheel
    IT Angle

    Huawei Firmware Question

    I have a question for the firmware experts here

    is it technically possible for Huawei to provide the source code for the products they sell which could then be compiled and compared to the code in the firmware?

    And that would then conclusively prove if it contains any nasties or backdoors ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Huawei Firmware Question

      I believe GCHQ has people embedded in Huawei doing precisely this.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Huawei Firmware Question

        But not in any of the alternatives. How reassuring.

        1. TheInstigator

          Re: Huawei Firmware Question

          You don't need any people embedded in companies that aren't your enemies ! (sarcasm)

  34. John 62

    Are we sure the alternatives are safer?

    I believe the biggest reason for this is the US sanctions affecting the Huawei supply chain, so that they can't get chips etc from suppliers connected to the USA, hence more likely to buy from shadier suppliers.

    The question is: are Nokia, Ericsson, et al suitably supported to be secure? The CCP can lean on Huawei to do its bidding, but they can equally lean on/penetrate Nokia.

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: Are we sure the alternatives are safer?

      I believe the biggest reason for this is the US sanctions affecting the Huawei supply chain, so that they can't get chips etc from suppliers connected to the USA, hence more likely to buy from shadier suppliers. ..... John 62

      Here's a pretty comprehensive and extensive outline/inside track on the shenanigans, John 62 ..... https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/a-different-future-for-telecoms-in-the-uk ..... and authored by someone one would like to think knows what they are talking about.

      If that is not the case, then surely UBFCUK'd and/or there be a monumental fraud booted and afoot.

      Which alternative do you prefer to believe is the classier ACT? Almighty Brains in a Commanding Control Centre or Half Baked Nit Wits on a Jolly Cruising Holiday?

      Which presents the question ........ Do NCSC do ACTs ?...... as in Advanced Cyber Threats and/or Treats? Global Operating Devices would have you know.

  35. mego

    """Regrettably our future in the UK has become politicised, this is about US trade policy and not security. Over the past 20 years, Huawei has focused on building a better connected UK. As a responsible business, we will continue to support our customers as we have always done."""

    That concerns me greatly given China has a law requiring that all Chinese citizens in a position to spy on the west, must do so.

    Further, my sympathy for any Chinese owned company has been significantly curtailed thanks to their handling of COVID-19, and the fact that the world would not be in the position we're in had they not sought to hide it from everyone. Do not forget that people in China speaking out about this still to this day continue to "disappear" randomly.

    Lastly, theft in China for Intellectual Property is significantly high. Purchasing such high quantities of goods at a cheap price just encourages that.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Naive as it is

    Someone needs to take the high moral ground, and if the Brits can't do It who can? Maybe we just to have to accept things will cost more but in return fewer humans get their rights abused. A panacea I know, but wouldn't it be nice!

    1. Brian Gannon

      Re: Naive as it is

      This is just one example of how the UK needs to offer more than services and actually start making stuff again.

  37. TheInstigator

    Just read the the US is now denying visas to Huawei employees - my goodness they must be dangerous!

    Maybe they're all WMDs and need to be taken out by Seal Team Six or Delta Force?

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