back to article UK government marks 'at least' £115m for new Brexit systems against backdrop of chequered IT project history in customs and border control

The UK government says it has earmarked £115m in spending for new IT systems to help with the management of customs arrangements and border data after the Brexit transition period comes to a close at year end. Some £100m will be used to develop “HMRC systems to reduce the burden on traders, alongside additional investment in …

  1. Warm Braw

    HMRC systems to reduce the burden on traders

    Compared with, say, not creating the burden in the first place, this makes perfect sense.

    1. NeilPost Silver badge

      Re: HMRC systems to reduce the burden on traders

      Customs, Borders, EU-wise benefits.

      You already know it’s going to be an IT shit-show.

      They will parachute Dido in to spin up another manual call centre to mitigate. After all Test, Track, Trace, Isolate will be sorted by then:

      1. Flywheel
        Mushroom

        Re: HMRC systems to reduce the burden on traders

        That woman really deserves an L.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh. Gove is in charge.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQSbav9GFfI

      1. BebopWeBop
        Thumb Up

        Excellent.

      2. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        That's truly brilliant!

      3. Jamie Jones Silver badge
        Happy

        At least it's not Farage: https://youtu.be/txY6JmP9ULg

        But we still have to watch out for Mogg :-( https://youtu.be/-j_CxQFziFU and Johnson https://youtu.be/Z1vtJcXamSc

  3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "HMRC was overly dependent on the technical capability of the Aspire suppliers between

    2004 and 2012,which limited its ability to manage the contract commercially.”

    Translation.

    "Having gutted the technical civil service of any actual ability to detect supplier bu***hit the clowns left were fed any amount of crap.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "HMRC was overly dependent on the technical capability of the Aspire suppliers between

      Problem is they have hired from these companies since the early 2000s so the people use to the BS are now embedded within HMRC, they expect it and allow it to continue.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "HMRC was overly dependent on the technical capability of the Aspire suppliers between

      And for those with slightly longer memories - HMRC were overly dependent upon the capabilities of EDS. Aspire was the vehicle that allowed HMRC to jettison the under-performing and overcharging EDS service. Looks like some (government departments) never learn.

  4. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "the Home Office had spent at least £830m between 2003 and 2015 on an e-borders"

    Or as you might like to think of it the "Brexit Dividend"*

    *To people like IBM, CrapGemini and others of the Usual Suspects.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Brexit is coming

    So many people seem to think that there is some way that Brexit might not happen.

    It’s coming, the EU and it’s allies have tried to stop it over the last 4 years but here we are. Everyone should be looking forward in the new direction this ship has embarked on. Everyone must prepare.

    Inward investment in Britain for Brexit will hopefully spur meaningful regeneration for parts of the nation that badly need it, likely similar parts of the nation that where awarded much by EU investment but also voted heavily for Brexit.

    The EU dream was a bold one but falls flat on its arse when it decides to favour some people and nations over others. The pursuit of the dream has created an in balance over large parts of the world who where for generations dependent on European nations but found themselves cast aside for the Euro dream.

    1. Adair Silver badge

      Re: Brexit is coming

      There is:

      1. doing something necessary well

      2. doing something necessary badly

      3. doing something unnecessary well

      2. doing something unnecessary badly

      Which category does the evidence suggest 'Brexit' belongs to?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit is coming

        Fingers in ears time while chanting

        La la la La la la la!

        1. Adair Silver badge

          Re: Brexit is coming

          Some of us never manage to leave the school playground, do we? Brexit is done, apparently, but the consequences of how and why have barely begun, plus so much more has yet to be done. Where will it all end, I wonder, what will have been achieved and at what price? Don't miss the continuing unfolding saga of THE BREXIT FILES!!!

          1. Tom 7

            Re: Brexit is coming

            The brexit files will be found along with the Russian report in /dev/null.

      2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Brexit is coming

        Which category does the evidence suggest 'Brexit' belongs to?

        Brexit is in category #2, the EU is in #4 (also numbered 2 for some odd reason? )

        1. Adair Silver badge

          Re: Brexit is coming

          (also numbered 2 for some odd reason? ) - something unnecessary done badly. ;-)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Brexit is coming

      "Inward investment in Britain for Brexit will hopefully spur meaningful regeneration for parts of the nation that badly need it, likely similar parts of the nation that where awarded much by EU investment but also voted heavily for Brexit."

      Question: why didn't this investment happen before Brexit? Before austerity? Before the 2008/09 crash? And what makes you think it will now happen after 01/01/21? What form will this investment take?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Brexit is coming

        >why didn't this investment happen before Brexit?

        Because of evil Brussels burocrats of course.

        Don't you remember a tearful Margaret Thatcher pleading with the Germans to be allowed to help the industrial north, but being told Nein?

        1. Teiwaz

          Re: Brexit is coming

          Don't you remember a tearful Margaret Thatcher

          Hmm, the only tearful Margaret Thatcher I can recall was when her party booted her out the door of No. 10.

          1. BebopWeBop

            Re: Brexit is coming

            I think he was joshing.

          2. Tom 7

            Re: Brexit is coming

            I cried too - with laughter.

          3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            he only tearful Margaret Thatcher I can recall was when her party booted her out the door

            Shades of Teresa May in fact.

            Except Thatcher was capable of critical thinking and understood the difference between the reality of the UK's place in the world and the fantasy projected by large parts of the UK media.

      2. NeilPost Silver badge

        Re: Brexit is coming

        ... akin to Germany being an science, technology engineering export giant globally despite the same impediments from the EU a that the UK ‘suffers’.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit is coming

          That is since the germans being evil, whilst puuur lil UK is them suffering good fairys...

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit is coming

          ... akin to Germany being an science, technology engineering export giant globally despite the same impediments from the EU a that the UK ‘suffers’.

          That may be because German influence in the EU has clearly shaped it into a union that works best for Germany, and the other members have to struggle along as best they can.

          1. seven of five

            Re: Brexit is coming

            Or Germany has shaped itself into something fitting the union it is bound to.

      3. Ken 16 Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: Brexit is coming

        I can only answer one of those; it will take the form of large brown envelopes full of cash (dollars or euro preferably) with thick elastic bands around them dropped on the floor beside Cabinet ministers meeting lobbyists in fancy restaurants.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Brexit is coming

      Oh we know its coming. The point where the bumper of the UK economy hits the concrete of reality, which will turn out to be solid, and amazingly indifferent to red white and blue bunting. It will take a few years for the crumpled mess to come to a complete halt, and probably a decade before the emergency services get to the wreckage. Still we can trade with China (Hong Kong, Huawei....) or maybe India (ultra nationalistic protectionist govt) or USA (see India) .

      The only reason there will be inward investment is that the £ will crash so badly that school kids in Singapore will be buying Sunderland factories with their lunch money. Why inwardly invest in a high wage/low skill economy that just chopped itself off from its major trading partners?

      Everyone should prepare - put your life jacket on, but do not inflate before leaving the country. Assume the brace option. Get ready and kiss your ass goodbye.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit is coming

        Nah. The Dunkirk/Blitz Spirit dividend will come into play!

        I mean, nothing sums up our do-or-die British pluck than the recently observed well behaved crowds and their McDonalds boxes full of turds.

        Huzzah!!!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit is coming

          Hmmm, "Dunkirk Spirit" - I would not call that a proudest moment of an army / country. I mean "tactical" running away from enemy with the help of civilians! Why do English keep bringing up?

          What's next? Suez "victory"?

          1. Tom 7

            Re: Brexit is coming

            Its always worth remembering our US friends crashed the pound during the Suez Crisis. They will do it again during the brexit crisis so they can buy up assets on the cheap while forcing us into a trade deal that even the average brexiter will see as being far worse than our current one with the EU.

            It will be a loss of sovereigns - probably all we have.

            1. Roger Kynaston

              Re: Brexit is coming

              'It will be a loss of sovereigns - probably all we have.'

              Wot, are they going to be buying up Brenda and her (grand/great grand) sprogs? Come to think of it, they could get their hands on Andy more easily then.

      2. NeilPost Silver badge

        Re: Brexit is coming

        Yes... I don’t think the price an trade deal of hundreds of thousands of Indian immigrants replacing the EU immigrants will go down well .. even in dim places like Epsom and Ewell or Sunderland:

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Brexit is coming

          No, but it's great for the shits 'n' giggles!

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge

          "he price an trade deal of hundreds of thousands of Indian immigrants replacing the EU immigrants"

          Well you know that, and I know that, but Johnny Heil-Reader (his family has been here since the Norman Conquest don't y'know?) has not appreciated that.

          But give him a few years and he'll work it out.

          Eventually.

          Pop quiz.No conferring. Leave voters only. When did China and India join the EU?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Winter is coming

      It’s coming, the EU and it’s allies have tried to stop it over the last 4 years but here we are. Everyone should be looking forward in the new direction this ship has embarked on. Everyone must prepare.

      We stocked up on three months food last time. Over the past months we have been using and replacing the expiring sell-by date stuff, but I'm now thinking get a further three months in on top of that. There will be months of supply chain problems. Supermarkets emptied in March when there wasn't even any holdup in the supply chain.

      And what sort of inflation are we expecting to accompany the tariffs, the shortages due to goods and transport being blocked in Customs and paperwork hell, the pound going down the toilet because of exporters unable to compete in the EU and all the other fifty countries where the UK enjoyed free trade access courtesy of EU agreements, and the tax rises because of the shrunk economy?

      I'm thinking 25% isn't unreasonable, so I'm buying ahead anything else I can.

      1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: Winter is coming

        I agree entirely, and I'm doing the same. The shortage due to panic over covid.... We ain't seen nothing yet!

        I don't know yet what to do with all my savings. I'm wondering whether to move to a savings account in dollars...

        1. First Light

          Re: Winter is coming

          How about euros? Just for the irony . . .

    5. MJI Silver badge

      Re: Brexit is coming

      Don't blame me I voted remain.

      I am not doing anything to help it, the leavers made the mess, they can fix it!

      Just why should victims of this mistake help? It would be the same as people in the US having to support trump in his aims even if they are in the opposition.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: Brexit is coming

        I'm doing the only thing that will actually help the brexiters after leaving. Campaigning to rejoin.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Brexit is coming

          @Tom 7

          "I'm doing the only thing that will actually help the brexiters after leaving. Campaigning to rejoin."

          Thats not a bad idea. Some people might even believe it but once people see the costs of signing up to it they will likely reject the EU outright instead of it having to be crammed through the back door and forced on us.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            WTF?

            Re: Brexit is coming

            Thats not a bad idea. Some people might even believe it but once people see the costs of signing up to it they will likely reject the EU outright instead of it having to be crammed through the back door and forced on us.

            In 2018 the UK paid £15.5 billion to the EU. It got £4.5 billion back in payments to the public sector projects. So the EU cost £11 billion. Government spending was £864.9 billion. 11/865 ~ 1.3% of government expenditure.

            HMRC estimated in 2018 that the average cost of a single customs declaration was £32.50. There are about 200 million intra-EU transactions each year, and each will now require two of them - one import declaration and one export declaration. £32.5 x 400 million = £13 billion a year extra cost just in filling forms in. So, by leaving the single market and customs union, we will be spending about £2 billion more than the cost of being in the EU just in filling in the extra customs paperwork!

            This is just the cost of doing paperwork. It doesn't include the additional costs of export barriers like tariffs and customs delays, or the costs of replicating the 50 odd agencies that we are no longer a member of (EASA, EMA, EMSA etc), or the costs of mitigating of the loss of other benefits.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Brexit is coming

              That's the cost of political freedom.

            2. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Brexit is coming

              @Smooth Newt

              "In 2018 the UK paid £15.5 billion to the EU."

              And the EU wants to spend more. Hell the talk of 'hold outs' are 4 countries unhappy that they are being pressured to put in even more to the excessive monetary black hole.

              "It got £4.5 billion back in payments to the public sector projects"

              As long as they are the projects the EU want the money going toward. We get back a small portion of what we give but it must be spent in EU approved ways. Or we have £15bn in the UK just for 2018.

              That is before having to sell the public the EU interference and regulations, EU politicians and the political machine which removes voters further from the decision makers, high tariffs and more expensive lifestyle, the Euro currency and god knows how many other toxic and unappealing aspects of the new EUSSR/USE

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Flame

                Re: Brexit is coming

                And the EU wants to spend more. Hell the talk of 'hold outs' are 4 countries unhappy that they are being pressured to put in even more to the excessive monetary black hole.

                You really think I give a shit about this sort of twaddle when I'm worried about there being enough food in the shops?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Brexit is coming

                  You really think I give a shit about this sort of twaddle when I'm worried about there being enough food in the shops?

                  Don't be daft, project fear was never realistic. You may run a bit low on Camembert & Champagne, but you won't starve (and the UK actually has more varieties of cheese than France).

                2. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Brexit is coming

                  @Smooth Newt

                  "You really think I give a shit about this sort of twaddle when I'm worried about there being enough food in the shops?"

                  Thats what you are worried about? I have fantastic news for you then, food is in abundance! And not only that but cheaper! And this is pretty well known too even by supporters of remain. There are various articles out there stating the price of food will go up, followed by an asterisk stating 'from the EU' because factually it will be cheaper to buy from the global markets.

                  If your worry is about food being in the shops then you will be as happy as can be to see plenty and cheaper.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Meh

                    Re: Brexit is coming

                    I trust the opinions of people like the Road Haulage Association, whose members actually have vast experience in shipping goods across national borders, over those of a pseudonymous comentard who does not. The Road Haulage Association view is no deal, no jobs, no food. I also rate academic studies over Daily Express articles, for example on the anticipated impacts of Brexit scenarios on UK food prices.

                    The UK imports 80% of its food, about 25% from the EU. We buy it with foreign currency. As sterling collapses, so that food will become more expensive. Food is also subject to WTO tariffs, which we generally don't have to pay now - even with third countries - because of EU trade agreements.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Brexit is coming

                      The Road Haulage Association view is no deal, no jobs, no food.

                      And it's not like they have a vested interest in making their own lives simpler, or anything like that.

                    2. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Brexit is coming

                      The UK imports 80% of its food, about 25% from the EU.

                      Complete bollocks. Over 50% of all food consumed in the UK is produced in the UK, a much higher figure than 100 years ago. Of the rest, we import much of it by choice for our own convenience. We want things like strawberries and asparagus outside the UK seasons, and obviously we can't grow coffee in the UK. We import meat & vegetables, but we also export massive amounts of food, especially in the dairy and fish areas. We actually export UK cheese to France, as well as importing French cheese.

                      Worst-case scenario for the immediate future is that some fresh imports will be more expensive or in short supply, but there is no risk of food shortages.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Brexit is coming

                        Complete bollocks. Over 50% of all food consumed in the UK is produced in the UK, a much higher figure than 100 years ago

                        My information comes from here:

                        In a research note [written in January 2019], HSBC analyst David McCarthy and his team wrote, "It is widely believed that 50% of food is imported into the UK," he wrote. [...]

                        The 50% statistic underrepresents the reality, McCarthy says. In reality, "80% of food is imported into the UK," he wrote. The lower number "defines food processed in the UK as UK food, even though the ingredients may have been imported. For example, tea is processed in the UK, but we grow no tea — it is all imported. When ingredients are counted as imported, the real figure is over 80%."

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Brexit is coming

                          My information comes from here:

                          A remainer publication supported by HSBC?

                          When ingredients are counted as imported, the real figure is over 80%."

                          Quite impossible, the balance of trade figures simply don't add up for such a ludicrous claim. We couldn't afford to import 80% of our food, nor to have all those farmers idle.

                    3. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Brexit is coming

                      @Smooth Newt

                      "I trust the opinions of people like the Road Haulage Association"

                      Who make it very clear- 'Since the prospect of leaving the EU became a reality in June 2016, the Road Haulage Association has been campaigning tirelessly to get the best deal for its members'.

                      They also state- '50% of food consumed in the UK’s comes from around the world – of which 70% comes from the EU.' which of course is due to EU protectionism we wont be facing when we leave. So prices come down and we get our supply from the global market. For an amusing example we wont be forced to suffer protectionism of Spain and oranges, we can get them elsewhere.

                      And- 'British hauliers that make international journeys will be forced out of business, causing irreparable damage to the supply chain' which neglects the world coping with international shipping without having to take the huge truck with them nor them driving all the way.

                      "I also rate academic studies over Daily Express articles"

                      Sure. As far as I can see in the study of that academic paper it is not worth the paper if it was to be printed. It seems the paper assumes we still get our food from the EU and apply EU standards (protectionism). Since leaving is to get rid of insane restrictions and protectionism of 27 other countries that assumption is not credible.

                      "The UK imports 80% of its food, about 25% from the EU"

                      The UK has imported most of its food for a considerable time. We are very good at it. And with EU restrictions being lifted we can continue to do so to our benefit.

                      "As sterling collapses, so that food will become more expensive"

                      Collapses? If you fear for the sterling you must be petrified for the Euro. If not then you are worrying about the wrong currency.

                      "Food is also subject to WTO tariffs"

                      Which impose maximum not minimum tariff.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Thats not a bad idea. "

            Hello comrade.

            Hows life on the farm?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit is coming

        I am not doing anything to help it, the leavers made the mess, they can fix it!

        Sadly typical of so many remainers. You don't care about what happens to the country, as long as you can sit back and say "I told you so". Enjoy your schadenfreude while you can.

    6. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      FAIL

      Re: Brexit is coming

      Says the AC without the balls to even put their name on the post.

      I'm excited by the looks on the faces of all those farmers, fishermen and NHS supporters who voted for this getting exactly what they voted for.

      The wholesale destruction of UK agriculture and fisheries (unless all the money they were putting into the EU CAP continues to come out of taxpayers pockets) and a potential increase in the NHS drug bill by 2.4x.

      Heinlein was right. Being spoon fed lies and bu***hit is not "being independent" or "thinking for yourself" it's being a programmed and expendable cultist.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit is coming

        Being spoon fed lies and bu***hit is not "being independent" or "thinking for yourself" it's being a programmed and expendable cultist.

        Just as well we finally left the cult then, isn't it.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          FAIL

          "Just as well we finally left the cult then, isn't it."

          Says another Brexiteer (or maybe just the same one, over and over?) also without the balls to put their own ID on their post.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    115M ==~10 apps that don't work?

    Wonder who'll get the overseer's job, after all, they couldn't think of anyone better suited than Dido last time around.

    Perhaps we'll get a cake and a cherry this time around.

    1. BebopWeBop

      Re: 115M ==~10 apps that don't work?

      I wonder who is going to get the undertakers job?

      1. seven of five
        Coat

        Re: 115M ==~10 apps that don't work?

        Certainly a more appealing position than Didos cherry and cake ...

        jeez, sorry, am ooot.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Relax people, thats over 5 months to finalise the requirements, spec out the details, buy & commission the kit, generate comprehensive test cases/suites, implement & test the software, integrate & test the entire system, generate accurate documentation for the different types of user, train HMRC admin & customer support staff, provide uptodate online training tools/assistance for all sizes of company, etc.

    Hmm, sounds like a lot of work, luckily we know people who say they'll do it for us.

    1. Chris G

      "Hmm, sounds like a lot of work, luckily we know people who say they'll do it for us."

      I am sure Capita or Tata would be willing to lend a hand for a reasonable consideration, if that goes titsup then there is always a possibility the UK could ask that nice Mr Trump to come to the rescue with a trade deal.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Only tricky part is that you don't find out the rules for trade with the Eu until 30Dec - then you have all night to implement the business logic

        1. Tom 7

          Just assume no deal and at least set it up so you can change the rules fairly easily. Not that you will need to.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            >Just assume no deal

            A proper no-deal 'à la Farage' ? With no filthy foreign goods or people allowed in and a similar response from Europe? I think I could code that for 115M quid in 6 months.

            Perhaps the project could called "computer says no..." ?

          2. Ken 16 Silver badge

            Don't you mean Australia-style deal?

            I'm not sure if that refers to deportation and prison ships for those stealing bread or an outcome similar to that Churchill planned for the Aussies at Gallipoli.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Australian style deal means shipping all the criminals to the costa-del-sol ?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Why not use that team that successfully rolled out a world beating test and trace app on the Isle of Wight within two weeks - now that's working perfectly thy must have time on their hands.

  8. Len
    Mushroom

    Preparation

    The one thing that has struck over the last couple of years is the disconnect (and general late-ness) in preparation for Brexit.

    Of course, there are quite a few things that will change in January that we won't know until probably October. However, even when it all still looked uncertain whether Brexit was even going to happen, some preparation could already take place.

    For instance, once in a while Kent clogged up with lorries because of weather, strikes or logistical issues with EuroTunnel or Ferries. And that was before Brexit.

    Long before we knew what shape Brexit was going to take we already knew at even the variant with the least amount of friction would create extra customs paperwork, declarations, customs inspections of lorries. Even leaving the EU but staying in the Single Market would have meant extra bureaucracy, let alone the very hard Brexit we’re now headed for.

    That means that as early as 2016 it made sense to strengthen the Kent infrastructure (widen the M20, create lorry holding parks) using Brexit as the reason for Compulsory Purchase Orders of land and houses, emergency planning laws etc. Long before Brexit was a word it made sense to make GB less dependent on Dover and share the RoRo load with other ports.

    And now, with months to go and the UK’s poor reputation for border control (No exit checks, WTF!) or customs (UK faces €2 billion EU tab for China fraud) or being a reliable partner in international security operations (UK taking 'steps' after illegal copying of EU Schengen data) the UK is almost certainly going to lose access to the Schengen Information System to check whether the chap that just showed up at your Border Force booth at Heathrow is not wanted or travelling on a stolen passport and the UK could easily fall out of a number of Advance Passenger Information agreements.

    All of this was known years ago yet we’re suddenly scrambling in 2020, with six months to go.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Preparation

      And the best bit is that Boris and The Arch Duke Duchy of 'I may have a grand title but I am the embodiment of everything that is wrong with politics/humanity' Gove (and every other brexiteer) will blame everyone except themselves for the lack of preparation.

      Repeat our matra after me..

      1. It's not our fault

      2. No, you misunderstood what we said in 2016 (I.e. that's also your fault)

      3. No, the award of the contract to company x was not because the CEO is a Tory party donor, that is just a coincidence

      4. We've settled out of court with company x for £20mil despite the fact that they delivered nothing because we need to move on. I consider this matter closed.

      5. No, we knew that company x didn't even own a computer when we awarded the contract, but their proposal was good for the tax payer (for follow-up answer refer to point 3, above)

      Thank you. Nothing more to see here, move along now

    2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

      Re: Preparation

      Len, the government didn't want the brexitters to know the truth until as late as possible.

      If they'd been honest from the start, they'd have never got it passed... How many of those in Ashford would have voted Tory last year if they knew the lorry park was coming?

      They needed the hard-of-thinking to be in the dark for as long as possible, and now finally some of them are getting a clue, the government are now gaslighting by telling us that they told us all along that due to brexit, people would lose jobs, and the NHS would face cuts:

      Video here: https://www.indy100.com/article/andrea-leadsom-no-deal-brexit-job-losses-tory-leadership-video-8950416

      Silly us, that £350 million on the side of the bus must have been the government telling us of the cuts.

      Evil, evil bastards, the lot of them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Preparation

        "How many of those in Ashford would have voted Tory last year if they knew the lorry park was coming?"

        All of them. They knew what they were voting for. Same with Brexit. And now they have to pay the price. For the good of Brexit Britain. Too late to cry now. (And Damian Green's crocodile tears fool no one.)

  9. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Typical remoaner whining.

    What about our wonderful new deal with Tristan da Cunha?

    As soon as we find it on the ma we can work out where to park the lorries and then make preparations for a border post

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Tristan da Cunha is British and uses pounds Sterling, but was never in the EU, so it's got a head start on Brexit already.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge

        was never in the EU

        It's never as clear-cut as a Brexiteer thinks. They're a British Overseas Territory which has trade advantages with the EU (or will have until the end of the year).

        Assurance for tariff-free EU Tristan Lobster trade sought

        I think the good people of Tristan da Cunha have just realised they're up shit creak without a paddle. That, or the inhabitants of the UK suddenly start liking lobster a lot more than they do now.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          It's never as clear-cut as a Brexiteer thinks

          It's very clear-cut. Crown dependencies and overseas territories aren't in the EU. They may have trade deals with it, but isn't that what many leavers want for the UK?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            >>Crown dependencies and overseas territories aren't in the EU.

            Typical Brexit supporter, "Hooray for Blighty! St George! Dunkirk! Blitz! World Cup!!! ....

            ... Fuck You, Gibraltar!!!" (Unless Spain comes sniffing round.)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Typical Brexit supporter, "Hooray for Blighty! St George! Dunkirk! Blitz! World Cup!!! ....

              ... Fuck You, Gibraltar!!!" (Unless Spain comes sniffing round.)

              Ah, there's nothing like the ignorant, ill-informed bile of a losing remainer. Since you don't understand Brexit, why not STFU about it?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                "Ah, there's nothing like the ignorant, ill-informed bile of a losing remainer. Since you don't understand Brexit, why not STFU about it?"

                Ah, poor delude AC, You know that Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory and is (up until 31/12/20) treated as an EU territory, right? (And voted by 96% to stay in the EU on a 84% turnout?) (Little) Englanders only care about Gibraltar when there is some Spain bashing to be done.

          2. Dan 55 Silver badge

            It maybe what many leavers want for the UK, but as for what the 250 people of Tristan da Cunha want, nobody bothered to ask them. They had no say in the referendum, the leavers in the UK spoke for them.

            Luckily I'm sure leavers in the UK had their wellbeing at heart and the Tristanians can look forward to the British government managing a seamless transition between what they currently have and a trade agreement which covers everything they need at the end of the year. Shame they also lose European development fund access and FoM in the EU.

    2. First Light

      This gave me the best belly laugh in a while.

      On Google maps it's closest neighbour is Inaccessible Island. Which couldn't be more poetically named considering that's what Britain will be pretty soon.

  10. Len
    Thumb Up

    The positives

    The major positive about these systems is that I am not involved in developing them. The scale and complexity are immense.

    The UK will go cold turkey to 'Third country' status on 1 January. About 150,000 companies will need to complete customs formalities for the first time as they only ever traded within the EU. We're talking about an estimated 215 million extra declarations per year, which could cost them an additional £7 billion.

    The country needs an estimated 50,000 extra people trained in customs formalities to help businesses navigate the extra red tape. Fewer than 3000 people are thought to have completed the new training for it.

    The Goods Vehicle Movement Service (GVMS) is still in development and testing will not start until November. That is the system where every business that wants to export to the EU will need to fill in declarations before the lorry even departs their warehouse for the border. It's not one declaration per lorry, it's one declaration per consignment so a single lorry may need hundreds of declarations.

    I haven't had full confirmation yet but I suspect the new lorry park (or "Farage Garage") under Ashford that the people in Kent are now upset about will play a large role not in incoming freight but in outgoing freight. I think they have taken a leaf out of Rotterdam's book and will require any lorry headed for ferry or tunnel to have their documents checked there before they are allowed to proceed to the terminal. That prevents the terminals from being blocked up by chancers without declarations. There will be an estimated 10 or 12 of those sites needed across Great Britain (Northern Ireland is a wholly different matter).

    For those of you with an FT subscription, this is an interesting read: UK’s border plan leaves business still searching for answers

    Look at the scale, hundreds of millions of declarations a year means hundreds of thousands of declarations a day. Look at the users, a vast chunk of them will be businesses that have no experience in making customs declarations, some of them will go bankrupt if this doesn't work. Look at the visible fall out, blocked up roads in Kent and pictures of lorry drivers camping on the hard shoulder of the M20 on the front page of the Sun.

    Normally systems with a vast scale and complexity are exciting things to get your teeth stuck into. Not this time as it will inevitably not deliver all that is asked from it and a bunch of low-skilled cabinet ministers will then blame HMRC and the developers for making a hash out of an impossible task.

    1. NeilPost Silver badge

      Re: The positives

      There are further complexities of UK Distribution Centre’s which supply internal businesses in the EU too for on-sale to the public who are ‘exporting to them self’.

      I’m specifically thinking here of the likes of Tesco who part-fulfill their ROI stores from the UK with goods tax authorities will be deffo interested in.

      Used to work there.

      1. Len
        Angel

        Re: The positives

        True, one of the reasons the Northern Irish agriculture minister has halted the preparations for the new border down the Irish Sea is because there is a lack of clarity whether supermarkets like Tesco or Sainsbury's are exporting (with all the customs declarations and checks) to Northern Ireland when they stock up a branch in NI from a warehouse in GB.

    2. MJI Silver badge

      Re: The positives

      I think a lot of small businesses will just say stuff it and not bother.

      1. Len
        Meh

        Re: The positives

        Yes, we're going to see a division between smaller companies that already traded outside the EU and those that didn't.

        If your customers used to only be in one of the 31 countries of the EEA + Switzerland (as is the case for about 150,000 UK businesses) then trading with all your customers outside of the UK will become a lot more challenging. A chunk of them might consider giving up on selling to people outside the UK altogether.

        If you also had customers outside those 31 countries then you probably already had existing customs operations and you move your French, Spanish or German customers from the 'Easy' bucket to the 'Hard' bucket where you already had your Argentinian, American or Australian customers.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: The positives

          Do we even know the rules for visiting the eu next year?

          I know exactly what I had to say when visiting the USA for a business trip under visa waiver. Is there a visa waiver scheme for the eu, is there a visa for all these lorry drivers or do they need to stop walf way across and hand the keys to an eu driver?

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: The positives

            Do we even know the rules for visiting the eu next year?

            Our most EU visiting coworker goes a lot, and put absolutley no thought into this.

            He is already moaning that it will cost him more, then gets annoyed when reminded he wanted it.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: The positives

            The loss of reciprocal health care over is a real kicker. Good luck if you are over 60 finding an insurer that will cover you against Covid....

            1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

              Re: The positives

              Good luck finding an insurer that will cover anyone of any age against COVID.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: The positives

                Solves the travel industries problem anyway - basically if you can't afford to stump a private repatriation flight or 3 months in intensive care you CANT LEAVE THE COUNTRY - was that ever written on the side of a bus?

          3. Len

            Re: The positives

            Lorry drivers can't work on a holiday visa as driving a lorry is considered work. If that driving takes you to another country then you are working in another country, something that would normally require a work permit. There are all sorts of agreements that allow for this to go smoothly (precisely to prevent lorry drivers having to hand over the keys at the border) with all sorts of levels.

            A basic level is for instance the right for a UK driver to drive a load from your warehouse in Chester to a customer in Toulouse but drive back empty.

            A more advanced level is for that driver to take a load back from that customer in Toulouse to the UK.

            An even more advanced level is for that driver to pick up an unrelated load and drive that to the UK.

            A yet more advanced level is for that driver to pick up a load in Toulouse and drive it to Bordeaux.

            Look up 'Cabotage' if you want to dive deeper.

            I don't work in haulage so I haven't followed this precisely but I believe the UK has only been given 2% of the available licenses available for non-EU drivers. This is probably why Girteka (Europe's largest haulier with over 7000 lorries) thinks this hard Brexit is an opportunity for them and is expanding in the UK. Hauliers with many British drivers on the payroll will struggle to ship much into the EU from next year. They could refocus on the RoI, though. Thanks to the Common Travel Area British drivers are still allowed to work in Ireland.

        2. MJI Silver badge

          Re: The positives

          If your customers used to only be in one of the 31 countries of the EEA + Switzerland (as is the case for about 150,000 UK businesses) then trading with all your customers outside of the UK will become a lot more challenging. A chunk of them might consider giving up on selling to people outside the UK altogether.

          Or move your business to the Republic of Ireland and give up selling to the UK.

          And yes if I was in that situation I would, Ireland is a lovely place. East coast has some nice beaches and is just in TV aerial range of the UK for the BBC.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Meh

          Re: The positives

          If your customers used to only be in one of the 31 countries of the EEA + Switzerland (as is the case for about 150,000 UK businesses) then trading with all your customers outside of the UK will become a lot more challenging. A chunk of them might consider giving up on selling to people outside the UK altogether.

          Count Northern Ireland as outside the UK too. There will be customs posts between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and if you want to trade into there you will have to submit NI import declarations. Anything that HMRC deems at risk of being moved across the land border into Ireland will then be subject to EU tariffs. You can claim your money back if you can convince them otherwise. Good luck with that.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Thumb Up

      "new lorry park (or "Farage Garage") "

      Quality work.

  11. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Just when you thought it couldn't get worse

    Need I say more?

    Actually, I've given up on this, and my latest concern is how to get a regular supply of face masks.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Just when you thought it couldn't get worse

      >and my latest concern is how to get a regular supply of face masks.

      need to get out more, an entire cottage industry that has sprung up making these - as people confined to home rediscover their sewing machines...

      Remember unless you're a hospital you don't need the medical grade of mask and even then you probably only need it if you're working on the CoViD19 wards.

      1. Tom 7

        Re: Just when you thought it couldn't get worse

        The trouble with the cottage industries is you dont know what you are getting. You need standards and testing to ensure the product is of use. A friend had one made by someone 'on facebook, and it fitted like a car cover after a hurricane. Any sneeze would just avoid the cloth 'filter' and head out through the creases. Even the ones I've seen people wearing on TV look similar - you wouldnt want to pass by their side.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Just when you thought it couldn't get worse

          >The trouble with the cottage industries is you dont know what you are getting.

          Sourcing from local cottage industry is much easier than from Alibaba

          Try this charity: https://www.teamworktrust.co.uk/facemask

  12. codejunky Silver badge

    Ok

    Good to see both sides moving in the right direction, getting ready for brexit. A couple of days ago I read the EU decided they will allow business to continue with London clearing services-

    https://www.expunct.com/business/its-the-consumer-that-wins-in-markets-not-the-supplier/

    1. Tom 7

      Re: Ok

      I dont believe a word of that link - I notice they didnt link to the EU website where that would presumably have been posted if true.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ok

        "AUTHOR

        Tim Worstall"

        Would that be Tim Worstall, UKIP's Ex- press officer and failed EU parliament candidate?

        Nuff said.

      2. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Ok

        @Tom 7

        "I dont believe a word of that link - I notice they didnt link to the EU website where that would presumably have been posted if true."

        I hope your wrong for everyones sakes. Wont do the UK good if the EU plunges itself into another deep recession to teach us a lesson

        *I dont subscribe to the telegraph so cant see the full text or links

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ok

        Whilst I believe it quite likely that from the start of next year, businesses in the EU will be allowed to use London-based clearing services that is - according to that article - "time-limited".

        Those clearing services are already moving out of London to places such as Berlin. Those involved in clearing services are mostly international organisations and it makes no difference to them where they are based. Given all the other post-Brexit pressures that are on them, I know for a fact that many of them started making plans to depart London from the day after the vote. Skilled/qualified workforce, access to the EU markets, cheaper office space - the only reason to stay in London is the presence of the supporting infrastructure. But as soon as *enough* of that infrastructure moves out of London, then the rest will swiftly follow,. Why on earth would they stay and wait for the inevitable EU decision that the "time-limited" nature of the supposed announcement was now at an end and you had to be based in the EU.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Ok

          @AC

          "according to that article - "time-limited"."

          Yup. For as long as it takes as Euro clearing is mostly done in London. About 3/4. in one of the largest global financial trading hubs in the world. As I said, I hope the article is right or the EU will plunge itself into another recession.

          "Those clearing services are already moving out of London to places such as Berlin"

          Are they? This is the problem the EU has faced with trying to pull back their currency clearing to within the EU. If they only allow the EU to do it then its not an international reserve currency. If they force the European clearing to only happen within the EU they cause the EU into another recession again. If you are referring to Deutsche Bank they are just failing hard at the moment.

          "Those involved in clearing services are mostly international organisations and it makes no difference to them where they are based."

          This is where it probably is best you post as AC. It really does matter. Global liquidity markets in a trusted legal system with the facilities both direct and ancillary to the financial market cluster into few places and are hard to move. You could try to do this in Frankfurt if you wanted but it would be more expensive, less capable and enforced on the Euro it would cause recession.

          "Given all the other post-Brexit pressures that are on them"

          Still access to the world market that the EU cant even pull its currency from without tanking itself.

          "Why on earth would they stay and wait for the inevitable EU decision that the "time-limited" nature of the supposed announcement was now at an end and you had to be based in the EU."

          Because the EU is not the world. It is a shrinking portion of global wealth.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    what could possibly go wrong...........

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Has Chris Grayling been put in charge yet?

  14. Jamie Jones Silver badge
    Facepalm

    To be fair to brexitters....

    To be fair to brexitters, whilst we haven't yet found the magic unicorns, it does now seem that the government has found the magic money tree.

  15. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Holmes

    O ye of little faith

    With the combined benefits of our highly skilled negotiators, and cutting-edge government planning I'm sure our economy will be off the scale.

    Er...

    Downwards!

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: O ye of little faith

      @Will Godfrey

      "cutting-edge government planning I'm sure our economy will be off the scale"

      Yikes, that is one of the reasons to get out of the EU. The EZ has been tanked by the EU government planning and a lot of problems caused by it moved us to vote leave.

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