Ciscos holes in their HR policies...
... are as big as their holes in their security products.
A senior engineer working at Cisco headquarters in Silicon Valley claims he was mistreated by coworkers and managers because of his Indian caste status – and that HR ignored his complaints about the matter. Cisco denies any wrongdoing. The John Doe plaintiff, represented by California's Department of Fair Employment and …
The purpose of HR is to protect the company from the employees and since this isn't really the case, then HR is uninterested. I won't be surprised, however, if the lower caste guy is eventually pushed out and the upper caste guy gets promoted.
> The purpose of HR is to protect the company from the employees and since this isn't really the case
There's nothing like world-wide bad publicity - especially bad publicity relating to HR practices - to get a new HR policy in place tout-de-suite.
[Icon: HR behind their closed and security-coded doors]
Anything could happen, but I suspect a hockey game in Hades before the remedy for that bad publicity includes dealing with the basis of a grievance.
Not specific to this case, of which we all have too little data, but the purpose of HR is right there in the name: To treat humans as resources, i.e. commodities, no more important than floor wax or paper clips.
Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all. We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees
is management bollox speak for, we have plenty of rules in place, and we have NEVER had anyone question them before .....................
the outcome of this is the way we should view Cisco from now on - IF the DALIT guy WINS, they ARE listening, and MAYBE things will change [don't hold your breath]
IF the DALIT guy LOSES, then the attitudes that brought this case to court are actually institutionalised and Cisco has NO plans to do anything about it EVER.
and bearing in mind that they already employ a substantial number of workers from the sub continent, they may as well just admit they ARE running it according to caste, and intend to keep it so :o(
"the outcome of this is the way we should view Cisco from now on - IF the DALIT guy WINS, they ARE listening, and MAYBE things will change"
Maybe? You aren't cynical enough. If he wins he will be paid out of Cisco's pocket change in return for an NDA and an agreement to seal the records. Cisco will continue to act like it has in the past.
If it was me, I would refuse the NDA and the records seal. If they try to enforce it, tell them we are going to trial and we are going to air all of your dirty laundry in court. That might get them thinking about what their next move is. If he wins, then the settlement will be on his terms.
Having just left a USA HQ based company, that primarily has first generation people from the S Indian sub continent in most of its senior positions. My belief is the Caste system is being used in most of these type of companies. As someone from Europe, I found it very disturbing and will not be working for these type of companies again. The culture is not about fairness, transparency, equality. This may be fine in the Indian continent but no where else and should not be, particularly as we rightly enforce equality for BAME and all sexes.
The caste system is alive and well in the UK, high caste Brahmin's are doing very nicely, Gopal @ Cambridge is a prime example.
One high caste clan specialises legal practice and slum land-lording, they started renting to Dalits and other lower caste Indians and screwing them over, then discovered university s-too-dense were an even better target. Throughout most of the former commonwealth where Indians are still accepted they operate, with clan named 'farm-houses' worth millions.
White working class people are the new Dalits, they just don't know it.
I had to actually tell a young Indian colleague of mine to stop going into the men's room while the (female) janitorial staff member was in there trying to do her job.
He was quite outraged until I quietly reminded him he was working in a caste-less society and could actually be brought up on harassment charges if he continued to do what he was doing.
And although I've had similar words with one or two other Indian colleagues, I have to say I've found this to be not so much a cultural thing as a personal gittishness thing.
the outcome of this is the way we should view Cisco from now on
One outcome is raising awareness of this issue. I'm non-Indian, and only vaguely aware of caste issues. So if there's still discrimination amongst Indian workers, being better able to spot and deal with it should be a good thing.
My Mother and aunt were half Indian, my mother lived in India as a child until the war started and my aunt who was a generation older, lived in India for much of her life, She abhorred the caste system and thought it was one of the things that held India back, not only socially but developmentally too as many able members of lower castes had little to no chance of advancement. It seems that little has changed in the last few decades.
I remember my mother telling me how badly treated the Dalits were as well as members of some tribes who are not hindu, it's a shame because India and Indians have so much to offer the world.
Worked with a guy who was determined to earn enough here in the West to go back and start a company without the cultural strictures.
Then there are those who happily adopt the freedoms here and stay in the West.
Then there are those who want the money and the freedom here in the West, and stay, but at the same time deny those to others, here in the West and back there. They don't get 'freedom'. They should have it taken away from them.
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I used to work with an India-born DBA who got her US citizenship after spending 15 years as a resident. I still recall how she took pride in being a hardcore Republican, campaigned for Trump, and hoped he'd harden the immigration and H1B policies to prevent more of her fellow Indians from entering the states...
My grandfather used to characterize her keen as "those who cry for the heaven's gates to open, only to demand for them to be closed immediately after they got in".
"I still recall how she took pride in being a hardcore Republican, campaigned for Trump, and hoped he'd harden the immigration and H1B policies to prevent more of her fellow Indians from entering the states...”
You only have to look at Priti Patel and her UKIP candidate father to find that kind of rank hypocrisy in the UK too.
You may have missed the longer term plan there. Once UKIP got Brexit done, the UK needs to make trade deals. Any trade deals with India, such we likely need to have, will be dependant on Indian people having better access to the UK job market. That couldn't happen while we were in the EU.
Apparently, they are not robust enough.
It seems to me that Cisco is happy to circumvent visa issues in order to get low-pay employees, and after that it doesn't give a damn what happens.
Curious, because a company who is really attentive to its revenue should ensure that all of its employees are happy to work there.
But hey, what do I know ? I'm not at the head of a multinational behemoth. With my stupid ideas of salary tied to what the employee brings to the company, I would probably bankrupt every multi-billion international corporation in a month.
Cisco is in a position where lots of firms buy their kit because of the brand, despite the quality of said kit dropping dramatically over a number of years. Until their sales decline rapidly I can't see them making changes in the workplace. Even then, they're so dominated by Indian cultural norms that it may be too late to start promoting talent over caste loyalty.
With my stupid ideas of salary tied to what the employee brings to the company, I would probably bankrupt every multi-billion international corporation in a month.
This kind of thinking (i.e. salary tied to what the employee brings to the company) seems to work well for smaller companies. They can't afford to become top-heavy bureaucracies with internal power struggles and territorial disputes. So they do what YOU suggest, instead...
Unfortunately the public seem unhappy with the idea of salary tied to income:
Hedge fund managers makes $Bn in profit is paid $100M bonus = crowd with pitchforks
Facebook make $3M/programmer is paid $250K = mob with small garden trowel
Miner produces coal worth $20K, is paid $50K = universal support
That is naive beyond imagining.
Remember that "No I in team" thing?
The individual contribution to the earnings of a company can not be identified in that way. If it were the sales dept. would be paid 100% of the salary bill.
How do you decide what the cleaner contributes? Or the filing clerk?
How do you manage to discount the elements of risk/skill/care for detail in apportioning earnings.
The Health and Safety people earn nothing, they're what the bean counters would call a cost centre - but good ones save a company a fortune in lost productivity.
The IT dept. ditto.
I have a general unease that immigrants bring their culture with them - the bad with the good. This example is the caste system being introduced to the US; The UK has the class system; Past El Reg read articles about Indian visa holders taking up management positions in US technology companies then only hiring their relatives; an example last week of immigrants setting up a massive fraud against the Australian government, and past examples such as the fake Tahitian prince; Chinese business owners in Aus blatantly discriminating against people of African descent and being surprised to learn it's illegal to do that; and suspiciously only accepting cash in their businesses.
I think this is a legitimate concern that a lot of people share about the rate of migration and the criteria applied to the people accepted. How do we have this discussion without it descending into accusations and defensiveness about racism?
At one end of the spectrum you don't want terrorists or mafiosi migrating to your country or receiving working visas - that is asking for trouble, but where is the right place to draw the line?
I'm an immigrant myself and I hope that I bring more to Australia than I take away.
This is a difficult issue, but there's at least one thing that can guide your understanding if you are, too, an immigrant.
Ask yourself: "What perceived problems, according to myself, do I see that the members of my nationality/ethnicity are bringing into the country I immigrated to?"
If you don't have as clear and immediate of an answer as you had with the examples of the "others", your current mindset will not lead to a good solution.
"You've been watching too much Monty Python. I have spent decades working in British engineering and have never seen any form of discrimination based on 'class'."
Indeed. It's fair to say that Britain used to have a class system. The landed gentry were at the top, those in trade (respectable well-paying jobs that is, doctors and lawyers and such) in the middle, and the working class firmly at the bottom. Even if someone managed to be successful enough to buy themselves into land and nobility, they'd still be looked down on as new money, even more so if a worker somehow managed to get that kind of success. It was never really as instituionalised as the Indian caste system, but there was a certainly a general social understanding and attitude for how it was supposed to work.
But none of that really exists any more. The gentry are increasingly irrelevant where they still actually exist at all, and if anything most normal people look down on them now rather than the other way around. The "self-made man" is no longer looked down on but is considered something to aspire to, and someone who worked their way up from the bottom is generally considered better than someone who was born into riches.
What we do still have is relatively low social mobility. If you start off at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, you're unlikely to climb much higher through the course of your life. And this inequality and low mobility is a real problem for a society. But it's very different from any kind of actual system of classifying or enforcing class. Poor people don't have much opportunity to become rich and successful, but if they do they're generally considered an inspirational success story, not something to be derided and hammered back down.
Indeed. It's fair to say that Britain used to have a class system. The landed gentry were at the top, those in trade (respectable well-paying jobs that is, doctors and lawyers and such) in the middle, and the working class firmly at the bottom.
Still does. I went to a society do a while back, and was asked one of those class-finding questions. Where did you study? Not what, but where, because that can matter. I suspect my answer of 'mostly in the prison library' was the wrong answer, because I wasn't invited to any more. Still, picked up some nice jewellry if anyone's interested..
"Where did you study? "
I was once asked that. I said Durham, which seemed to be an ok answer. The questioner made an assumption because I didn't add the context that my primary school was in County Durham before our area was wrenched out to became part of Tyne and Wear. I suspect the level of education he was referring to would mean saying "Sunderland Poly" would not have been a "right" answer.
You've been watching too much Monty Python. I have spent decades working in British engineering and have never seen any form of discrimination based on 'class'.
Try working in the City. Yes, it IS a meritocracy in parts, but try getting a senior role unless you're a BSD in the front office, or middle /upper class; you'll find the working classes are appallingly poorly represented - working class Northerners even more so.
Looking around the banks corporate hierarchy diagram, the main problem we have with diversity is related to class background.
The class system kicks in way before that.
The kids that get sent to posh public schools, then Oxbridge have far more chance of getting that engineering ( or government) job than an inner city kid with no family background of educational aspirations, but who manages to get to a less prestigious Uni through ability and determination.
You can't have this discussion without it descending into accusations about racism.
That's the point!
It's not about racism and never actually has been. What they should say is "thoughtcrime!" but that is not perceived as being an offense to most people so they have to scream something else. On immigration, that's "racism" despite the majority of immigrants being the same race as us in the UK. Nonsensical? Obviously, as soon as you think about it.
Now read this definition of CrimeStop from George Orwell's 1984 for preventing ThoughtCrime:-
Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.
The Party supports immigration, and therefore any question of "is that actually a good idea" is heretical and therefore you can't think that because it's thoughtcrime, and therefore a large number of people are mentally incapable of discussing it and so scream "racism" to avoid confronting a huge cognitive dissidence.
Even if importing mafia, terrorists, obsolete class systems, forced marriages and female genital mutilation is obviously undesirable and undermines the stated objectives of their social movement the tactics of screaming "your either with us or against us" worked when they were in a majority and are now structurally embedded in their activists and they are literally incapable of changing because your questioning a pseudo religion, not a considered political position.
Even if importing mafia, terrorists, obsolete class systems, forced marriages and female genital mutilation is obviously undesirable
Well, you highlight the bad things, but many of the immigrants' cultures carry with them a fair bit of misogynism too, so there are good things there if only you look for them. :P
The dilemma is that many people escape the hellholes they come from, only to carry with them the same culture. E.g. what brought down countries like Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, if not religious fundamentalism? Whenever a country gets overrun with religious people, bad stuff happens. Some of us may scoff at female drivers, but very few would actually ban them outright. Not so in Saudi Arabia, perhaps the most successful muslim-dominated country. Enjoy drinking wine? Eat bacon? Let your daughter live a normal life as an equal? (name one successful muslim-dominated country -- "England" does not count as an answer)
Their culture is pure crap and drove their countries into chaos and oppression. Don't bring that crap here to Europe please. We already have our own share of superstitious people who impose their shady morals on everybody else. We don't need a refill. The HP business model should not be applied to our migration policies.
If you move to a different country, at least make sure you are able to enjoy the local cuisine first. My wife complained when I wanted to invite our new neighbors for a bbq: "They don't eat pork, hun". What asshats don't eat pork? Wtf.
Atheists are welcome though. Anyone with a brain really. And functioning taste buds.
Caste is nothing like class. It is racism.
People are born into a caste, and your descendants will always belong to your caste. There are not opportunities to rise. Forever.
The only exception is if you marry into a lower caste in which case your children will be of the lower caste - just the "just one drop" rule in American segregation laws.
Lower castes are regarded as intrinsically inferior - just the same as the racial science view of "inferior races".
Caste in India is the world's largest and most deeply entrenched system of racial discrimination.
Its not necessarily as bad in other South Asian countries, but it exists to some extent.
Sorry, you may be confusing us with Yorkshire. ;-)
(All joking and banter aside, sadly I think there's a lot of people out there who genuinely judge by area, just like the caste judgement above. I make a point only to judge people after I've met them, and can make a reasoned and logical assessment that they are, in fact, idiots/bigots/racists/whatever or not. Unfortunately I do see a hell of a lot of racism out there, and it's downright tiring bringing it up with people who've had it bred into them over many generations, and they can't see anything wrong with it.)
Except you can't call out racism of HK VS mainland or Singapore VS Taiwan or Indians VS everyone else (including other Hindus) - because that's racist.
In my experience in tech, it's mostly Indians and mainland Chinese who are openly racist. Some of that is selection bias, these aren't the Indians with US graduate degrees, but it's also background - I don't think Indian state schools do a lot of diversity training.
In the UK I think the only open racism I saw in business tech was sectarian - but that was in NI
I've experienced a similar phenomenon here in Northern Ireland. Most people I meet here can tell, from a name, accent or turn of phrase, whether someone is Protestant or Catholic. It's almost a reflex for some of them (inc, I was born and raised in England and have a very British-sounding accent. Guess which group I get lumped in with, despite being agnostic :) )
Despite the above, I've never experienced any problems regarding this. It just seems to be something people here are aware of, even if they don't act on it.
I remember the old anecdote about the guy in Northern Ireland who was approached by a gang and challenged by the question of "are you Protestant or Catholic?". His answer that he was an atheist resulted in the question "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".
Posted before seeing this...
it happened to me
I became aware much later of a rift within the school (North Manchester High) and the local area between Catholics and Protestants. Aware as in understanding why there were outbreaks of mild violence, I think caused by our (presumably mostly Protestant even though non-Denominational) school.
It was incidentally a school full of horrific levels of anti-Semitism too. And by no means just among the kids.
Skin colour is important, partly thanks to the British. When you look at the marriage ads in Indian papers you will see terms like "wheat coloured skin" along with the usual MBAs and MDs.
Back in the early 1980s I visited a company in India which was a joint venture with a British company. The local MD was from a low caste background, promoted on merit. The other managers were high caste. You could almost hear the atmosphere crackling at lunch when he would ask us foreign visitors if we cared for roast chicken while the others had to sit there and take the insult to their caste. I didn't blame him in the slightest.
Skin colour preferences are nothing to do with the British. Fair-skinned northerners have been seen as preferable for centuries before the Brits arrived, and in a mainly agricultural society is an indicator of being wealthy enough not to toil in the fields in the sun.
The plaintiff states that he went to the Indian Institute of Technology with one Cisco mananger, Sundar Iyer, who is of the highest Brahmin caste. Iyer is accused of sharing Doe's untouchable status with another Indian manager and using that information to make the plaintiff's working life difficult.
Legitimate question here, I'm pretty ignorant of this facet of Indian culture. Can you tell by the last name? By a home address emergency contact in his records? Someone he trusted with that tidbit told the wrong person?
My Indian ex described it as being a bit like Gaydar. Not sure if that helps, but its how I understand it works.
It’s quite possible that this problem is not specific to Cisco. The San Francisco Bay Area is full of Indian origin techies. Some of these Indian techies arrived in Silicon Valley with their own baggage of caste bias and prejudice. It is similar to racial problem of America - we pretend that racism does not exist, most of us do not behave like racists, but there is a hidden underlying prejudice that shows up in various ways through subtle micro-aggressions. George Floyd’s death and Black Lives Matter movement in response brought out this social problem in open daylight.
Most of the Indian techies are intelligent and educated enough to make sure that their underlying caste prejudice and bias do not influence their professional decisions. But not all Indian techies try to come out from their prejudice. As a result, you get this kind of Cisco-like incident. I won’t be surprised if other companies are having similar problems as well.
As a personal anecdote, I met an engineer at an Indian social gathering in Silicon Valley a couple of years back. He was openly and proudly sharing his secret of choosing the right company to work for - having Brahmins in top executive positions. People of Brahmin caste in executive positions - chances of the company being successful is high. Non-brahmins in executive positions - company is destined to fail. His theory excludes caucasians from the equation, because they are considered superior(!) - at least in his mind. He gave plenty of examples to support his theory. Satya Nadela, Sundar Pichai - they are all from brahmin caste families. Some of our jaws dropped hearing his logic. However I did wonder about the chilling effects of such a mindset in Silicon Valley - someday this engineer would be promoted as hiring manager and probably VP or CEO as well. Is he going to apply similar logic for hiring his subordinates - looking at the surnames to make sure a candidate is good enough for his team?
Is this Cisco manager the same person I met? Who knows!
Indeed most are, and the foods fine, chatting to the two brothers who own our local 'Indian' take-away they are open about their religion with those they trust, they fear the actions of hard-line jihadists will cause them problems, not without good reason given the inter sect violence the ROP is known for.
Basic tribalism in action. It happens everywhere and is one of the worst hangovers we have from our ancestry. It's a condition that requires education and a will to overcome, but unfortunately most people just can't be bothered as it's easier to carry on with their tribe(s) and exclude all outsiders and anyone who does not conform to their tribal definition.
I moved every 2-3 years for the first 40 years of my life so have almost always been the outsider despite being lucky enough to be a white Anglo-Saxon in western Europe. As a consequence I am quite used to not fitting in and to me that is normal. I love the expression on peoples faces when I tell them I don't give a **** about football, that I find worshipping a flag or person or an idea nauseating, and that I am not interested in their tribe or their prejudices. They just don't get that I am not even remotely interested in being "like them".
Most of the ills of this world can be laid at the feet of tribalism of one kind or another and will continue to do so well beyond my lifetime. I try and do my bit to educate but most people are so closed minded that they dismiss the idea, or as in the current political climate, they celebrate it.
I suppose I am tribal, but my tribe consists of just one person and I don't expect anyone else to be like me. In fact, I love the fact that others are different. Life would be so boring if everyone was the same.
When you grow up in the Caste world you are told that it's the way the world is, you may reject the view in public but it's very hard to escape the environment, it hangs in there with your attitude to life. And this makes it easy to get a job working for public schoolboys who love your inbuilt and unseen biases.
Working for the public schoolboys makes it appear that they have no biases, they don't need them because they are using yours - welcome to the British Caste system.
I am not totally surprised, and it I have sympathy for the HR department since unless you are brought up in the culture it is difficult to see how pernicious and ingrained the caste system is in Indian society and how it is transferred when Indians move abroad.
I used to work in Leicester, which has a large Indian community and I remember a situation where someone refused to work for a manager because they were a lower caste. To a anglo-saxon eyes it felt almost medieval.
However before we get all high and mighty, remember that a large part of the current government owe a lot of their position not to some meritocracy but because they are perceived a posher than the rest and therefore better than leadership, even if recent events has shown almost the opposite
Around the early 1970s I fancied going to work in PR after Uni*. I was offered an interview for a company doing corporate promotions and stuff in which the man doing the i/v kept asking if I minded that I'd be working for a woman (who wasn't at the interview, tellingly). He must have asked this 4 or 5 times and clearly couldn't believe that I wouldn't mind. I was 21 and looking for my first job, and though working class I had a degree. I'm guessing he'd mostly been employing local working class lads to stand up in trade shows.
*I was torn between going into IT and Educational Psychology and I guess this seemed a good way to avoid the choice. I ended up going to education (mostly).
If HR or any objecting manager was white, taking action would be tantamount to malfeasance and a sacking offence.
A reality of the various overlapping Virtue-Memes including Multiculturalism and White Privilege. Both very big deals to the shouters in California and indeed a lot of other places.
Long ago when the world was young, I was at a branch meeting of my employer at the time.
A personable young lady (oops, deduct 500 points for sexism) from HR gave us a brief bright talk about how great HR was and how we should all trust them implicitly. "Remember," she told us, "We in HR are the doctors who can help you if anything at all is wrong with your life in the workplace".
Then the manager asked if there were any questions.
A colleague of mine (blessed be his name) stood up and said loudly, "Where I come from, the doctors aren't paid by the bacteria!"
It set his career back about 10 years.
I knew that comment would come, it was something I was thinking about myself whilst writing it. But I was so pissed off with the way some companies think swapping people wouldn't have any effect I just wanted to have a moan.
But I agree, I think even professionals can sometimes feel they can't move jobs.
Inhuman-resources is what we call them, seems the most accurate descriptor considering how they treat people.
Spot on about the usual 'most valuable ASSet' bollocks, our VC e-mailed us all this week with that line in his message, cost cutting is here and your all in the firing line would have been more truthful.
The entire H1B contract thing is a joke.
My mothers friend from India arrived on a H1B and worked in Virginia for 10 years.
Shortly after making the 10 year mark he was able to get his USA citizenship.
He notified his employer of his status and he was immediately told to
train 5 people from India to be his replacement and was threatened
to be fired if he does not agree to train them.
One the one hand we're constantly being told to protect and respect different cultures...
And yet it's the indian culture which has this caste system and has resulted in this discrimination. It is his indian colleagues who are discriminating, non indians probably wouldn't even be aware what caste he was from or what the traditional relationships between them are.
Some aspects of cultures like these are simply incompatible with the ideas of equality expected in western societies, but the idea of forcing others to change their culture in order to be compatible is also supposed to be bad, and people get accused of racism for expecting immigrants to adapt to a new way of doing things.
Good luck on your lawsuit sir.
I have to admit, in HR's defense (not much of a defense but still), it is rather unbelievable that a) There's still an alive and well caste system and b) That people would leave the country but bring the caste system with them. I mean, *I* believe it but would not be surprised if some simply didn't believe it.
Second issue in the US -- discriminating based on race, gender... well let me google it... "race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, or age" is illegal. Caste is none of these, so if the HR department views their goal as merely avoiding illegal behaviors, they did. I've seen both, some HR departments are all about "compliance", if they are compliant with the relevant laws that is it, job done; other companies do have HR truly try to help work out interpersonal disputes and so on to help have a more harmonious workplace.
People here having a go at Cisco. The UK gvmt sends India billions in aid (despite India having a space program we can't afford) and thousands of companies have Indian call centres and development offices (including Microsoft and Intel). But as usual where there is money or profit for the rich shareholders there is, and never has been, any conscience (or any Christianity etc.)
...is a company that hires the sort of people not generally hired elsewhere. Dalits, blacks, women, evangelical vegans...
In return for offering average wages they get the most capable candidates and have crazy-low staff turnover because no one wants to poach their staff.
So integral is this practice to their business model they actually seek to perpetuate racism and other discriminatory practices, planting hate stories in the tabloid press, recruiting actors to phone talk-radio and funding politicians who divide the electorate.
Seriously though, a decent recruitment process would probably start with tests to sort the wheat from the chaff and largely abandon the interview.
Make the recruitment objective and focused on testing for the skills or aptitude needed to do the job.
Discrimination becomes almost impossible.
It does, however, need management that can discern what abilities are needed and who are able to devise appropriate tests.
That's how you can tell how efficient a market is.
If bank A can employ the public school educated sons of the chairman's golfing buddies and bank B employs brilliant math PhDs irrespective of sex/color/class/number of legs = if both banks do equally well then the market is inefficient.
Look at the relative returns of Bearings/Credit Suisse/Lehman etc vs Renaissance Technologies
In response to various comments on this topic:
Caste was originally an organization of society by profession, with the priestly Brahmin caste at the top. Therefore, Brahmins consider themselves perfect for, and entitled to, executive positions.
Caste (and region) can be given away by name, for example Iyer or Iyengar = Tamil Brahmin, Nair is a kshatriya (warrior or ruler) caste of Kerala,and so on. Again in Kerala, the Parayas and Pulayas were slave caste names. (Hence the incentive for lower castes to convert and leave caste behind, something that drives Brahmins nuts. The lower castes should stay poor and Hindu.)
Although in the metropolitan areas of India people may socialize with each other across caste, when it comes to arranged marriages (still the norm), caste is generally a factor and people are still murdered/ostracized by their own families for marrying out of caste. Caste has been maintained through centuries by significant violence between caste groups and individuals and distribution of economic resources along caste lines.
The Indian community in the US enjoys a status as the wealthiest of immigrant groups. I blame national origin discrimination practiced by the same community. It's not just the problem of nepotism, it is discrimination in favor of Indians and against non-Indians. I have been waiting for some enterprising plaintiff's-side employment lawyers to make that argument.
Indian culture is also misogynistic, so when Satya Nadella talked about women waiting for a raise rather than asking for it, I was unsurprised.
HR departments should be highly culturally aware and conduct cross-cultural training. But after all the training is done, you will still get the Nadella-type comments and conduct because the basic prejudice is so deeply ingrained.
Your comments on Caste are ignorant and biased with an axe to grind. Hinduism has no castes. It has Varna’s. A fluid system of distribution of labor. They earned respect as they were scholars and priests but obviously could not demand payment for an elastic service. The Kings were the executives “Khastriya’s” and armed forces. Your comments Reek of Brahmin bigotry esposed by the Marxist narrative spewed in India and used by predatory conversationists in India.
A rigid caste system was introduced to India by Lord McCauly to solidify faultlines in India and weaken it. It succeeded by creating this social ill. Human beinfs beckme tribal and clannish intimes of distress. India is no different and this happened via “cate” creation. In the working world with Educated people no one cares what caste someone is. Can they perform. Dalits get placement in Universities by quotas and lower merit standards than others so if they cannot measure up, its because they can’t perform. Pulling out the caste card so converts to other religions can bash Hinduism is not anything new. It’s obvious by the commentary here that los of these folks arw spewing their venom. Castism is a serious issue in India, but there are nuances. A multi millionaire like Kharge of the Indian congress whose kids got a free ride in University is Dalit yet not underprivileged by any means.
This is my second response. Waiting to see if the moderators believe inFOE or are Hinduphobic wit an axe to grind
AC» Human beinfs beckme tribal and clannish intimes of distress.
I beg your pardon? Has your iPhone gone ga-ga?
My understanding of castes is that they are anything but fluid (except down). Am I correct in surmising that you are someone who wouldn't marry a Dalit?
AC» In the working world with Educated people no one cares what caste someone is.
The whole point of this court case is that this seems to be the case.$
AC» Your comments Reek of Brahmin bigotry...
The problem is that Brahmins have not been exemplary in setting standards of fairness. There is probably a good reason why Brahmins are hated so.
AC» Waiting to see if the moderators believe inFOE or are Hinduphobic wit an axe to grind
I think that you'll find that the moderators are more interested in maintaining the laws of what can be published. Or can we expect a suit from you against El Reg on the grounds of anti-Brahmin hatred and suppression of free speech?
What's FOE btw?
>> In the working world with Educated people no one cares what caste someone is.
Why do almost all matrimonial ads in newspapers and online specify caste? Please provide some objective analysis. Not some rhetorical statements without any basis.
Here one objective study:
"Individuals in the United States are much less open to intercaste marriage than those in India, nearly 14% versus 23%."
"The responses also show what the researchers call a surprising result that Indian diaspora living in the United States who use the site are significantly less open to intercaste marriage than their counterparts in India, suggesting a focus on maintaining cultural identity as they live abroad in places where they have minority status."
Please enlighten us why 77% in India and 86% in the US are still NOT open to intercaste marriage. 77% and 86% - these are hopping big numbers. That doesn't sound like educated people don't care about caste. They do, they do A LOT, when it comes to important decision-making in every aspect of life - like marriage or recruiting employees or choosing a doctor for surgery. I heard stories where the patient’s family members refused to get surgery done and demanded a new doctor to be assigned for surgery when they learned that the doctor's surname is from lower caste.
Why does every success of an individual is considered to be the result of caste lineage (and not hard work of an individual)?
Please compile the statistics of your friends and acquaintances and let us know what is the percentage of intercaste marriage. That should provide some good objective analysis. Oh, yes I heard the typical response - “we really didn’t care about caste while searching for bride/groom but somehow we got married to same caste anyway”. There is a word for it: https://diversity.ucsf.edu/resources/unconscious-bias
>> Waiting to see if the moderators believe inFOE or are Hinduphobic wit an axe to grind
Your last word sums up your attitude quite well.
If something goes against (e.g. you are being moderated) - someone has an “axe to grind”.
If something favors you (like caste hierarchy) - let’s maintain the status quo (even though you are claiming it is British creation, but yet 77% in Indians India and 86% Indian-origins in the US still having hard time to abandon it). Pity!
Lord MacAulay was in fact a highly intelligent lawyer who codified a legal system for India that worked so well that it mostly lasted post Partition. He had nothing to do with the caste system that went back to the Laws of Manu.
"The Brahmin, the Kshatriya, and the Vaisya castes are the twice-born ones, but the fourth, the Sudra, has one birth only; there is no fifth caste....
To Brahmins he assigned teaching and studying the Vedas, sacrificing for their own benefit and for others, giving and accepting of alms.
The Kshatriya he commanded to protect the people, to bestow gifts, to offer sacrifices, to study the Vedas, and to abstain from attaching himself to sensual pleasures;
The Vaisya to tend cattle, to bestow gifts, to offer sacrifices, to study the Vedas, to trade, to lend money, and to cultivate land.
One occupation only the lord prescribed to the Sudra, to serve meekly...these other three castes."
You can laud Mc Cauly but India had a literate population at that time and a working education system in the Gurukuls. He injected Caste to divide Indians. When the laws of Manu were codified, Europe had nothing close to a system of codified laws. This dishonesty in comparison is telling.
This falsification or wrong interpretation of the Sudras based on an agenda. Sudras were anything but meek. Their classification is that of service providers. Engineers, Builders, Doctors, Lawyers all fall under that classification. They could demand money for services. Brahmins and Scholars are accorded respect because they can’t. Why are teachers even today so underpaid? You can’t spend respect. ONLY if that respect translates to better treatment in society. Successful and profitable occupations even today would fall under that classification but I don’t see anyone identifying themselves as a “Brahmin” telling their kids not to pursue those professions.
The False narrative about Brahmins is examined in The battle for Sanskriti by Rajiv Malhotra. Also available on Amazon.co.uk
I used to manage development consultants in the US. My experience was that people who lack skills or aptitude, but who happen to be of a minority background, always blame "prejudice" for their lack of promotion instead of looking to their own lack of skillset.
Sure there are exceptions, but I found them to be quite rare, at least with the companies I worked with and for in North America over a 30 year period.
the way is discrimination works is by not giving some people opportunities to shine or get noticed.. Giving them low value/impact projects, punishing them severly for any mistakes thus making it hard for them to go up. Development is not research. Most of the development jobs don't require any special talents. Regular folks with some education could do those jobs.
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Don’t confuse their judgement with facts. This cows caste and curry nonsense has been peddled by all Hinduphobic elements as a club to show how much better their “Faith is” . It’s all they have. Hindus have no history of committing Genocide or land grabs to equate to their faithful Historical psychotics actions. So they Keep bleating on about caste and Sati with no examination of the context.
Both are social ills .
We recognize the ills and agree that they must be resolved.
However they are big levers for those with a conversion agenda so they must be dredged up again and again.
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