back to article As anti-brutality protests fill streets of American cities, netizens cram police app with K-Pop, airwaves with NWA

As US cities saw cops fly off the handle at those protesting police brutality and systemic racism over the weekend, drama inevitably spilled into the electronic world, although in unusual ways. One of the more noteworthy cases was in the city of Chicago. On Saturday night, a mischief-maker broadcast over the frequency Chicago …

  1. Peter X

    iWATCH. Surely they've taken it offline because Apple threatened to sue them?

  2. jake Silver badge

    "Yes, Anon activists are back."

    Or as we prefer to call them here in the States, "the rent-a-mob".

    The people who are actually protesting the murder of Mr. Floyd are, for the most part, peaceful. The violence and looting is coming from several different groups who are in it for the violence and profit. They certainly don't give a rat's ass about Mr. Floyd's good name.

    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

      Nope. You can tell from the English Riots in 2011, misnamed the British Riots, that all the looters were opportunist local chancers acting as a mob but not knowing each other or organised beforehand.

      You do get young anarchists who use the opportunity to kick out at the police and vandalise banks, etc, but again not a group. They are just trying to make some Riot Porn so they look brave and get laid. I doubt any of them has read any anarchist writer.

      Neither of these types of idiot is a mob for rent. They are not even as organised as a flash mob.

      [The heat doesn't help calm things. I was half listening to BBC news and they announced May was the funniest month on record in the UK. My first thought was it was a joke, but they went on to serious news. Second thought, this has been a lousy, tragic least funny month. Third thought, they don't keep records of funniness.

      Sunniest. I've not been outside much and am going deaf.]

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        Nice story, bro.

        Unfortunately, it has no bearing on what I wrote. I am talking about what is happening in the US, not the UK. As was the original article.

        1. Danny 2 Silver badge

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          Name the "several different groups" you think are acting as a "rent-a-mob", and tell us who you think are renting them.

          I don't have many, or in fact any, areas of expertise on this exalted forum, but I'd bet I'm the only person here who has met Antifa and can estimate their numbers and reason d'être.

          I must add I fully agree that the response should be non-violent, has to be non-violent, and the violent protesters should be condemned. I just don't believe they are organised or paid for groups.

          One thing that struck me strongly, ignoring the police murderers and their under-prosecution, is the lack of intervention. Someone filmed it, and people complained, but nobody intervened. As an activist I was trained to throw my body on top of and around a victim, as a literal human shield. I know that sounds weak in the UK where most police don't carry guns, but that tactic was learned in Israel/Palestine. The idea is it gives the aggressor pause for thought.

          I honestly don't know if I'd be brave enough to follow my own advice, never been tested that way but I hope I wouldn't have frozen.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            He was calling 'anon" rent-a-mob, not "antifa"

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              I wasn't calling either of those groups of idiots the rent-a-mob. The rent-a-mob are the folks who are of no fixed abode, have no source of income, and yet always seem to have enough money to show up at the latest violent protest to egg on the crowd, regardless of what the protest is about. Many of them are immediately recognizable thanks to hand-made head wear and "artistic" jackets coupled with misc. ink and piercings. When you see the same folks show up in Seattle, Portland and Berkeley, Humboldt & Mendocino "old growth" forrests, San Francisco, Oakland, LA ... and then you see 'em in Chicago, Atlanta, and other cities where the protest du jour is happening ... well, it kinda makes you go hmmmm.

              1. batfink Silver badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                Really? Several citations needed here methinks.

                1. Are these actually the same people, or just people dressed similarly? Yes you do see people dressed as you describe at protests, but are they the same people? What about other people dressed in other fashions, such as wearing hoodies? Are they the same people seen at other protests?

                2. Are these people taking part in, or promoting, violence? Are they actually "egging on the crowd"? Or are they just there, protesting with the others?

                3. No fixed abode? No source of income? How do you know? This sounds like a bald assumption to me. For all you know, these are rich kids just dressed weirdly, with a predilection for dreadlocks. Or alternatively (as in a town near where I used to live), the weirdly-dressed ran businesses, had their own houses etc etc. We used to call them the "Business Hippies".

              2. Robert Forsyth

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                All at the same time?

          2. jake Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            They don't have a group name, to the best of my knowledge. I have no idea if anyone is paying them, but there has been speculation that somebody must be for the simple reason that none of them can possibly afford the travel that they do on their lack of income. Why is a matter of speculation. I have no answers, but I suspect that there is a Pulitzer in there for some enterprising journalist.

            1. John H Woods Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              I can well believe criminals could find the money for a Greyhound to an area where they thought they would be able to commit larceny, or even felony, with relative impunity. But it seems to me unlikely (although I am open to persuasion) that anybody is paying them: first question: Cui Bono? second question: why hasn't anyone already spilled the beans on these secret networks?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                Cui Bono?

                That is the one question I think that could be answered with a reasonable suspicion because it's tried and trusted in politics: those who want to desperately delegitimise these perfectly understandable protests.

                As long as they're peaceful, the protest's message is clear and remains well articulated in the media. It gets a lot harder to convey facts, opinions and misstandings when you're under fire, especially when you're a peaceful protester being teargassed out of the way because the idiot in charge wants to abuse a nearby church for a photo op with a Bible.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            @"I'm the only person here who has met Antifa and can estimate their numbers and reason d'être.":

            https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/tech/antifa-fake-twitter-account/index.html

            "A Twitter account that tweeted a call to violence and claimed to be representing the position of "Antifa" was in fact created by a known white supremacist group, Twitter said Monday. The company removed the account. Although the account only had a few hundred followers, it is an example of white supremacists seeking to inflame tensions in the United States by posing as left-wing activists online. "

            Antifa is whatever Breitbart chooses to apply the label to.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              It's all covfefe to me.

          4. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            One thing that struck me strongly, ignoring the police murderers and their under-prosecution, is the lack of intervention. Someone filmed it, and people complained, but nobody intervened. As an activist I was trained to throw my body on top of and around a victim, as a literal human shield. I know that sounds weak in the UK where most police don't carry guns, but that tactic was learned in Israel/Palestine. The idea is it gives the aggressor pause for thought.

            At best you'd get robustly arrested for obstructing the police / whatever the American equivalent is. Quite possibly you'd get shot - either by the police or the person they were detaining - see, that's the thing, police tactics are as they are because they don't know who is armed and who will kill, so they can only safely assume everyone might. That DOES NOT justify kneeling on someones neck for 8 minutes - a scenario I cannot image would likely lead to anything other than death.

            See, that's the thing missing from all of this. Exceptionally few police officers want to kill someone. Almost all are just normal family people doing their job the best way they know how. I know more police officers here in the UK than most other folk, and none of them think kneeling on a mans neck for 8 minutes is a good idea. They all think the officer who has been arrested and charged should have been and they all hope he is found guilty.

            Absolutely none of them would thank you for your untrained attempts to interfere with an arrest. At best you're prolonging their restraint of the original suspect, and at worst you're going to end up harming the suspect.

            The very best thing you can do when you see the police making an arrest is mind your own bloody business, stay well back, and if you think they're doing wrong, then quietly record it from a distance and submit it their complaints body when you get home.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              Hopefully, if some good comes from this situation in the future it will be enough to stand and video the incident. A future officer in this position may not be thinking clearly (for many reasons, ranging from outright racism to tunnel vision from a highly stressful pursuit), but accompanying officers should see that it's in their self interest (and the interest of the overzealous cop) to reign in the situation.

              Officers shouldn't see a citizen with a cell phone as a threat, but as a gentle reminder of a need for sanity and calm.

              I'm reminded of a scene at the end of A Few Good Men. Two Marines on trial for the death of a third have just been cleared of the worst charges after their superior admits to an unlawful order. The two are found guilty of a lesser charge and are to be kicked out of the Corps. One freaks out because "we didn't do anything wrong". The second realizes "yeah we did... we were supposed to fight for those who couldn't fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie."

              Cops are supposed to fight for us. Once he was no longer a threat to the public or the police, that also includes George Floyd.

          5. Jellied Eel Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            I must add I fully agree that the response should be non-violent, has to be non-violent, and the violent protesters should be condemned. I just don't believe they are organised or paid for groups.

            I think some aspects were organised, but not at the conspiratorial level. So I watched some live feeds from Santa Monica which showed some looting. There were elements of organisation there, ie cars carrying groups of people who looted stores. Those weren't protestors, just criminals exploiting the unrest.. Which may also exacerbate the problem. So retailers have been struggling due to Covid, now they've lost stock and have damage to repair. So how many looted stores will re-open & the knock-on impact to communities. But there's always Amazon I guess.

            Weirdest conspiracy theory I've seen is the suggestion that pallets of bricks had been left for rioters to find. Seems.. unlikely, especially given the trend for towns to use brick paving.

            One thing that struck me strongly, ignoring the police murderers and their under-prosecution, is the lack of intervention. Someone filmed it, and people complained, but nobody intervened.

            Yup. It was hard to watch the videos of the murder/manslaughter, and the behavior of the officer(s) was inexcusable. What did he think would happen kneeling on Floyd's neck for that long? The bystanders could see there was a problem, why didn't the other 3 officers & intervene? I guess the problem for the bystanders was general distrust of police. If they'd intervened, Floyd may still be alive but the bystanders charged with assaulting police officers, obstruction etc. But I think that's also a problem with heavy handed policing. Start with a minor offense, yell 'stop resisting', add charges of resisting arrest, assault etc.

            I did see some interventions during the rioting though. One idiot was shooting fireworks at police, but then other crowd members lumped him a little for being an idiot. Other strange thing for me was protestors 'taking a knee'. I realise where that came from, but seemed a little insensitive given how Floyd died.

            1. LucreLout Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              I did see some interventions during the rioting though. One idiot was shooting fireworks at police, but then other crowd members lumped him a little for being an idiot. Other strange thing for me was protestors 'taking a knee'. I realise where that came from, but seemed a little insensitive given how Floyd died.

              For me the defining image of the riots will always be one that a young colleague of mine showed me on some millennial site or other. It was a lone police officer stranded in a corner away from his colleagues, and a group of heavily built black men encircling him to protect him from the mob. Facing out as a literal human shield. Images like that have a deeper longer lasting impact than any words.

          6. DemeterLast

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            "I'm the only person here who has met Antifa"

            Pfft, that's nothing. I played ping pong with Anonymous just last week. Anyway, I've been told that "Antifa" is not an organization. I've been told that it's a spontaneous uprising of revolutionaries, so your knowledge may be incomplete at best.

            1. Danny 2 Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              My knowledge is incomplete admittedly, but your ignorance is complete. There is a long standing very small group called Antifa. They regard themselves as the spiritual grandchildren of the Battle of Cable Street. I doubt many of them are anarchists, or at least they never circled the capital A in their name. They get very annoyed at non-members who refer to themselves as antifa, even genuine antifascists.

              If the American group is like the British group then they won't even be at any of these protests unless the KKK or neo-Nazis are there - and then Antifa will turn up too.

              1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                First, they are not. Second, any KKK or neo-Nazis in Seattle are truly hard to come by. I live just north of Seattle. There have been fliers out offering money to people to cause trouble. So rent-a-mob is accurate. Also, their communications are not secured, so word tends to get out a few hours before the start. So when they tried to hit Snohomish, the locals showed up prepared and in force. A friend of mine said he hadn't seen so many guns since the Gulf War. Antifa freaked out and ran when they saw what was waiting for them. No violence. Nothing.

                And yeah, that cop better get the death penalty.

              2. LucreLout Silver badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                There is a long standing very small group called Antifa. They regard themselves as the spiritual grandchildren of the Battle of Cable Street.

                You'll find the loons over at Unite All Fascists claim they too are the spiritual grand children of the same event. The reality is to a person they're all just bored middle class children looking for a fight.

                If the American group is like the British group then they won't even be at any of these protests unless the KKK or neo-Nazis are there - and then Antifa will turn up too.

                Well yes, it is rather hard to have one side of the coin without the other.

                Racism is wrong, as is fascism. It's just a shame the purported "anti-fascist" groups are more fascist than the racist groups such as the KKK. The irony is that to a person they don't see it. They just don't want to.

                1. Danny 2 Silver badge

                  Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                  "The reality is to a person they're all just bored middle class children looking for a fight."

                  Aye, you are guessing (badly) but I actually know. You shouldn't guess and you definitely shouldn't second guess me. They are all very adult, mostly male, very hardened, ultra working class. For example, a veteran of the Strangeways Prison riot. Have you ever been beaten by prison officers for days and still fought back?

                  Like Trump you are mistaking Antifa with wee boys who call themselves antifa. You don't want to be on the same intellectual level as Trump, do you?

                  The point, the valid truthful point I was making, is the tiny group Antifa are definitely looking for a fight with actual fascists, just not with cops or anyone else. This is a smear&fear campaign by a deranged far-right POTUS.

                  Apart from the factually inaccurate politically motivated smear, the thing I hate most is how US media pundits pronounce it. It is not An tee Fa, it is Anti Fa.

                  1. jake Silver badge

                    Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                    Again, you are talking about the UK, Danny 2. The so-called "antifa" idiots here in the US have probably never even heard of Strangeways Prison. In fact, I seriously doubt that any of the people, on any of the myriad of "sides", making a racket out on the streets here in the US have ever heard of Strangeways Prison, much less what happened there in April of '90.

                    Honestly, you'd think that such a self-styled "expert" would take the time to learn the difference between the US and the UK ...

                    And yes, over here in the US almost all of the rioters are spoiled middle-class kids looking for a fight. Why? I'm sure most of them have no idea themselves, so why ask me?

                    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

                      Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                      A polite no. I ken fine that there will be thousands of US idiots calling themselves 'antifa'. There is also a pre-existing group called Antifa. Totally different things. Antifa will be extremely annoyed, and by now frustrated, by self-described 'antifa' as Antifa is a tiny, kind of elite, closed membership group.

                      I only heard this online, but I knew the people involved. 15 years ago somebody at an anarchist conference in England was punched for labelling himself antifa after Antifa had warned him not to. And when I say punched, I mean knocked out with a single punch. Antifa weren't attending, one of them just knew he'd be there.

                      I have a high degree of confidence in stating that all US members of Antifa will know about the Strangeways Prison riot. In fact that is a good Turing test to differentiate Antifa from wannabe 'antifa'.

                      You might feel I'm picking minor differences, but it's important now POTUS has declared them all terrorists.

                  2. LucreLout Silver badge

                    Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                    Aye, you are guessing (badly) but I actually know.

                    No you don't. You're just some bored aged Scot in a wholly different country to Cable street. At best you know a few bored middle class kids that like to shout and run around pretending to be ninjas. They, and you, should probably grow up.

                    For example, a veteran of the Strangeways Prison riot. Have you ever been beaten by prison officers for days and still fought back?

                    See, I used to live almost opposite Strangeways at the time of the riot. Nobody was beaten for days. The ring leaders that made it to the roof were just let be generally until they got cold enough and hungry enough to want to come down. Facts seem to have this terrible habit of not aligning with your world view.

                    Like Trump you are mistaking Antifa with wee boys who call themselves antifa.

                    There's no mistake. Its just a bunch of bored middle class kids with too much time on their hands, too little knowledge in their heads, and too few miles on the clock.

                    The point, the valid truthful point I was making, is the tiny group Antifa are definitely looking for a fight with actual fascists, just not with cops or anyone else.

                    Antifa, like the UAF, ARE fascists. Their view an nobody else's counts. Well, duh..... how simple does it have to be explained to sink in I wonder.

                    Apart from the factually inaccurate politically motivated smear, the thing I hate most is how US media pundits pronounce it. It is not An tee Fa, it is Anti Fa.

                    Nobody cares. They just aren;t relevant you see. They never were. Bored. Middle class. Children.

                    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

                      Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                      See, I used to live almost opposite Strangeways at the time of the riot. Nobody was beaten for days. The ring leaders that made it to the roof were just let be generally until they got cold enough and hungry enough to want to come down. Facts seem to have this terrible habit of not aligning with your world view.

                      Congratulations on your X Ray vision that allowed you to see through the prison walls. I had to rely on books on the subject and first hand testimony from both prisoners and officers.

                      1. LucreLout Silver badge

                        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                        Congratulations on your X Ray vision that allowed you to see through the prison walls.

                        They were on the roof FFS. Your first clue should have been the facts of the riot, and your second clue should have been the part where I said The ring leaders that made it to the roof were just let be

                        The security guard from our flats was in Strangeways at the time of the riot, though he wasn't rioting himself. He considered prison an improvement on his economic and social situation outside at that time. The vast majority of the riot was contained the same day it broke out, with the remaining prisoners being ensconced on the roof. Nobody was "beaten for days" per your original fantasy.

                        I realize it must feel terribly difficult to be engaged in world events when your country is being dominated by wee jimmy crankie, but having wild delusions your involvement with antifa and gatekeeping membership isn't helping you one jot. Antifa is a bunch of bored middle class children that enjoy playing anarchist and that is all they have ever been.

      2. teknopaul Silver badge

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        IMHO Looting is about momentarily taking back control.

        Its not so much, I want to have that iphone, as I want the feeling of empowerment that comes with _taking_ that iphone.

        It is far from a rational decision.

        A politician that blames the individual, does not know his trade. (Or is is lying)

        Greed can be the motivation for a crime.

        In a riot the motivation is wrath.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          No. Looting is opportunistic stealing. There is absolutely no altruistic excuse for these criminals ripping off goods that don't belong to them. They are thieves, pure and simple.

          In a riot, the motivation is mob rule.

          1. Robert Forsyth

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            Why torch the place? Or smash up the inside?

        2. SkippyBing

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          Oddly enough Donald Rumsfeld said much the same.

          https://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/04/11/sprj.irq.pentagon/

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          > IMHO Looting is about momentarily taking back control.

          When in the heat of the moment perhaps. But there was a picture on the Sky News site [1] of someone stealing a fridge-freezer and they'd used a sack-barrow to wheel it to the car. That's hardly a heat of the moment action.

          [1] Needless to say I can't find it again now - probably replaced by a more "exciting" picture i.e. more violent

          1. teknopaul Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            I'm not saying greed does not exist. Or that taking something that is not yours is not theft. I'm saying the motivation for the riot that precedes looting is anger. Not greed, or some Christian notion of evil.

            I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining it.

            If you insult someone, and they punch you in face, its wrong to justify your insult with the punch. Its stupid to insult them again.

            A riot is that on a macro scale.

            When OP says "I think rent-a-mob doesn't care about the black life" if you defend that

            a) you are clearly incorrect

            b) you need to ask yourself why you think this

            Why is it important that to find that video? What does it prove? To whom?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        They most certainly ARE organized and planned.

        Look at this group, they were caught pretending to be "Antifa" by twitter:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Evropa

        https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456

        "White nationalist group posing as antifa called for violence on Twitter..." So they ran a false-flag operation.

        Their domain is here:

        https://www.identityevropa.com

        And it was created very recently:

        https://www.whois.com/whois/identityevropa.com

        Domain: identityevropa.com

        Registrar: iNET CORPORATION

        Registered On: 2020-04-11

        If you're an organized group, with a website prepped and ready, and you start pretending to be 'Antifa' terrorists or their friends (i.e. you're game), then you're organized.

        From Wikipedia:

        "The organization's founder, Nathan Damigo (/dəˈmɪɡoʊ/), is a self-described member of the identitarian movement.[25] Damigo grew up in San Jose, California,[25] and was a member of the U.S. Marine Corps from 2004 to 2007.[15] In November 2007, Damigo robbed a La Mesa, California, taxicab driver at gunpoint, believing that the man was Iraqi.[15][27] Damigo was convicted of armed robbery and was incarcerated for a year in county jail and four years in state prison"

        "In December 2016, the group had roughly 200 members"

        They're the full on US Nazis and they certainly are organized.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Cui bono? Not racists.

          Could easily be a double false flag by actors on behalf of whoever is really behind this event. The domain was only registered recently, which would fit with a planned operation. The ex-military (trained) criminal character of the person involved is exactly the sort of person they would recruit for the job.

          The evidence from the scene is suspect; that nobody intervened indicates it was allowed to happen or staged. Mainstream media attempting to pin the blame on “racism” as-yet without proof.

          Problem reaction solution. State actors commit a crime. Mainstream media attempts to pin the blame on innocents (i.e. anyone whose racist), and “demand” something must be done = (predictably) more rights taken from innocent public, thoughtcrime laws and increased powers for centralised authority. Only if the majority are naive enough to believe it. Maybe Antifa should double take on who the real fascists are? Two birds one stone op.

          1. batfink Silver badge

            Re: Cui bono? Not racists.

            Nah it was clearly a triple false-flag. Or maybe deeper.

            1. Louis Schreurs Bronze badge

              Re: Cui bono? Not racists.

              It was the deepest flag the universe ever has falsified !!!!!!!!!!!

              1. TrumpSlurp the Troll

                Re: Cui bono? Not racists.

                Flags all the way down.

      4. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        "You do get young anarchists "

        What you're referring to as "anarchists" are actually "chaos monkeys"

        Contrary to popular belief, _real_ anarchists are actually organised at a local government level - and in Barcelona they did a reasonable job of running the city for quite a while before Franco's fascists killed them all.

    2. teknopaul Silver badge

      Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

      Video everywhere is going to change the game even without the video being leaked by anon ops.

      White guy blatantly walking into a protest pointing an assault rifle at people and open carrying a pistol and its just not possible to pull "we have no proof" line with current technology.

      Its not whats seen thats important now, its what ignored.

      Everyone knows, that everything is known. All miscarriages of justice are known to be corruption. There is no room left for plausable deniability.

      Cummings didn't bother to produce a convincing lie.

      This transition from hiding corruption, to blatantly ignoring it, is likely to make people mad.

    3. P. Lee Silver badge

      Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

      There are good reasons to protest Floyd's death. I think the policeman did something wrong and needs to be held to account, but probably not strangling Floyd with his knee. My understanding (caveat - from a web site) is that the medical report said there was no physical trauma to the neck which would have resulted in strangulation. Whatever "kneeling on Floyd's neck" entailed, it was not lethal physical trauma.

      There also do seem to be groups out there stoking violence for their own ends, either political or financial. I'm disappointed in the article headline. Protesters march through the streets with banners and chants. I'm all in favour of that, but that is not what is happening. These "Anti-brutality protesters" are brutally beating people up.

      Which group kills more, the police or criminals? Who is being attacked? Whose property is being destroyed? Who is hurting who? I'm not a fan of racist analysis, but if you want to think and act in racial terms, at least attack the correct targets.

      There are groups involved who have political goals including the tearing down the system. There are useful idiots acting on opportunistic greed who are being provided with philosophical cover by political factions. Being truthful rather than tribal helps clarify the situation and bring calm.

      As for Floyd's "good name" I think we need to be truthful about that too. He had a history of theft, criminal trespass, drug possession, and aggravated robbery with a gun. It has no bearing on what happened to him, but it helps break down the tribalism when we can speak the truth about both sides.

      1. Phil 54

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        A private autopsy returned asphyxiation as the cause of death; the official autopsy returned cardiopulmonary arrest, which is a non-result, equivalent to saying that he died from no longer being alive.

        Even the official autopsy retained neck compression as a primary factor leading to death.

        So yeah, the police officer murdered George Floyd by kneeling on his neck until he was dead.

        1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
          Flame

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          There are several things that surprise me about this kneeling on the neck technique.

          First, it's an official method of restraint. WTF? Who the heck thought that restricting the neck was a good restraint technique?

          Second, this isn't the first death of a suspect from being restrained by this technique. Here's a suggestion for you: If people are dying from your restraint technique then clearly somethings wrong!

          1. Warm Braw Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            clearly somethings wrong

            I think people got that.

            The man was already handcuffed. He didn't need restraining. The knee remained in place well after the man was dead.

            It wasn't an unfortunate accident, it was deliberate. It wasn't "restraint", it was murder.

            The problem isn't some unapproved restraint technique, it's that police offers can murder people in cold blood and, often, escape any sanction by making obviously fictitious excuses in which the criminal justice system is subsequently complicit. That's why crying "rule of law" in response to mass protests is a hollow sham.

            1. LucreLout Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              The man was already handcuffed. He didn't need restraining.

              I'm pretty sure even with his hands cuffed he could have kicked my ass. Handcuffs are not a magic solution that automatically require no further restraint.

              That doesn't justify 8 minutes kneeling on his neck. The cop that did it is rightly banged up facing a murder charge. 8 minutes is a length of time I just can't wrap my head around - even a world class free-diver would black out before then.

              1. Alan Brown Silver badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                "The cop that did it is rightly banged up facing a murder charge."

                The 3 others that didn't intervene _should_ be facing "accessory after the fact" charges.

                1. LucreLout Silver badge

                  Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                  The 3 others that didn't intervene _should_ be facing "accessory after the fact" charges.

                  I can't see how.

                  Floyd had been resisting arrest by refusing to be placed in the police car for a full 5 minutes before the murdering neck-kneeler even arrived on scene. Given that 2 of the 3 others had been unable to restrain him prior to backup arriving, it is not reasonable to then expect one of them to stop their restraint to remove anothers, because then you're right back into the inability to restrain him part.

                  The guy kneeling on Floyd's neck is rightly facing a very serious charge, but I can't see how the other officers are to blame. They would be if there was no resistance, sure, but given the extensive and likely exhausting and frightening resistance, I don't see that they can be blamed. I'm not a weak guy, but even with him in handcuffs, 2 of me would be utterly exhausted and probably terrified after several minutes of trying to make him comply with instructions he'd decided he wasn't going to comply with.

                  To be clear, Floyd absolutely should have been restrained when he began resisting, but he absolutely should not have had someone kneeling on his neck up to the point of losing consciousness and what must have been several minutes beyond. That is inexcusable and could only predictably lead to death.

                  [For evidence of resistance and its length, see any timeline in any reputable news outlet - they're all pretty clear on it]

          2. jake Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            "First, it's an official method of restraint."

            I was curious about that, so over the weekend I called my local city police department. They say it is not taught in any jurisdiction in the US that they are aware of. So I called the County Sheriff. Same answer. So I called the CHP. Same answer. So I called my cousin, a cop in Nevada. Same answer, with the elaboration that if he used it, even for a couple seconds, he knew that he'd never work as a cop again.

            So no, I don't think it is an official method.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              It is absolutely an official method for the MPLS PD. I didn't even have to call my family tree to find out. They publish it on-line.

              http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/policy/mpdpolicy_5-300_5-300

              Relevant excerpt:

              DEFINITIONS I.

              Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)

              Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)

              Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)

              Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)

              1. Rich 11 Silver badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure

                Definitely the thing to do to a handcuffed man lying face down, while three of your mates stand around and watch. What could possibly go wrong?

              2. Alan Brown Silver badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                "It is absolutely an official method for the MPLS PD"

                I can't see it being there much longer when the liability underwriters have it brought to their attention

            2. batfink Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              Good extra info thanks. That's not clear at all from the reporting in the (variously biased) UK papers.

          3. BebopWeBop Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            If people are dying from your restraint technique then clearly somethings wrong!

            That depends on your motivation - maybe the cops has been told to save on ammunition?

          4. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            "Second, this isn't the first death of a suspect from being restrained by this technique."

            Third this isn't the first, second or even third case of _this cop_ having killed someone or being disciplined for police brutality

            US police are not "peace officers", they are a hostile, occupying, heavily armed militia - and one thing history tells you about wars of occupation is that the occupiers cannot win them if those being occupied don't want them there anymore.

            The USA has a concept of "qualified immunity", bui that's been abused beyond reocgnition to provide judicial immunity to police deliberately breaching rights, etc - and then there's the issue that the police forces seem to have unlimited liability insurance no matter what happens. One of the fastest ways of bringing a rogue company to heel is to cancel or heavily limit their insurance cover.

            1. LucreLout Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              Third this isn't the first, second or even third case of _this cop_ having killed someone or being disciplined for police brutality

              Like everyone else on the planet, except some shameful lawyer or other, I'm not defending the cop, not for one second. He is where he needs to be, in jail.

              But this, this that you have written, is just lazy and illogical. You could have just as correctly and easily written:

              Third this isn't the first, second or even third case of _this cop_ having killed someone or being disciplined for police brutality or barebacked Taylor Swift while JLo fondled his balls on the White house lawn

              You've conflated a lot of things with the single most serious event to pretend they enjoy the same status, which they clearly do not.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          When Floyd was killed all people did was stand around and film it, but imagine what would have happened if Floyd had been holding the cop down with his knee on the cops neck - he would have been attacked by everyone.

          In American we don't trust the police, we're just scared of them.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            "In American we don't trust the police, we're just scared of them."

            I'm not afraid of the police. At all. The vast majority of cops are fine. There are only a few bad apples, Just like in any other line of work.

            1. sabroni Silver badge

              Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

              A lot of white people aren't. Your system is racist but you're ok with it because you're not black.

              Police are there to uphold the law. When they allow their own to murder someone in cold blood they are ALL bad cops.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                And how, pray tell oh all-wise and all-knowing Sabroni, are my local cops here in Northern California supposed to have stopped the murder of Mr. Floyd clear across the country? Somehow I don't think that racism is the reason for that. Not even if you squint.

                And yet somehow you see fit to tar them with the same brush as the murderer?

                How do you feel about the FACT that more cops have been killed by criminals than cops have killed innocents? Are you calling for an end to that violence? Because from here, it would appear you think it's OK because racism.

                1. BebopWeBop Silver badge

                  Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                  Balls. If you are going to post here try and get your facts right. Someone will look up blithely stated non facts in favour of an argument.

                  Take one year - 2019

                  Officers killed in the line of duty 131, source 'Officer Down Memorial page' https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2019

                  Other years are available there

                  'Civilians' killed by police 2019, 1004, source of data the Washington Post study which collates incomplete FBI records with verified media reports across the US.

                  1. EvilDrSmith Silver badge

                    Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                    BebopWeBop,

                    Possibly both you and Jake are correct.

                    Jake refers to 'innocents', so presumably excludes civilians engaged in a criminal offense.

                    Your figures are for 'Civilians', so presumably includes civilians engaged in a criminal offense.

                    Do the figures you have looked at provide a more precise definition of 'civilian'? Or more relevantly, the number of civilians killed unlawfully by police officers?

                    I also realise that my use of the term 'criminal offense' is the wrong metric, since most criminal offenses do not justify a police officer taking your life.

                    (Also, I'm not trying to be smart here - there are more guns in the US therefore there is more likelihood that criminals will have and use guns; therefore it is to be expected that more lawful civilian deaths will result from police action than in, say, the UK. I am therefore genuinely asking whether the figures that you found refer to civilian deaths or unlawful civilian deaths)

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                  "How do you feel about the FACT that more cops have been killed by criminals than cops have killed innocents?"

                  This is a LIE! Show your work:

                  In 2019, 128 law enforcement officers tragically lost their lives, 49 of which were firearm related. In the same year, at least 1004 people were shot and killed by law enforcement. I say at least because this is the lowest number recorded and the government doesn't keep this statistic.

                  Sources:

                  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/01/george-floyd-death-police-violence-in-the-us-in-4-charts.html

                  https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/fatalities-reports

                  https://fatalencounters.org/our-visualizations/

                  https://killedbypolice.net/

                3. Cynic_999 Silver badge

                  Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                  "

                  How do you feel about the FACT that more cops have been killed by criminals than cops have killed innocents?

                  "

                  You are welcome to your own opinions. You are not however welcome to your own facts.

                  As another poster has pointed out, a quick search reveals that your "fact" is a complete lie.

                  1. LucreLout Silver badge

                    Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                    You are welcome to your own opinions. You are not however welcome to your own facts.

                    They aren't using their own facts (which may or may not be wrong regardless) but you are misinterpreting their statement.

                    What was said was:

                    How do you feel about the FACT that more cops have been killed by criminals than cops have killed innocents?

                    And what you have provided evidence for is:

                    How do you feel about the FACT that more cops have been killed by criminals than cops have killed criminals AND innocents?

                    They're not the same thing.

                    I've not looked at the data so have formed no opinion either way, other than the basis of your argument is false because you're disproving something the other party didn't say. In that sense, I think the right term is a strawman.

                    1. jake Silver badge

                      Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                      Precisely, LucreLout. Confirmation bias is rampant around here ... I should know better than to post in threads like this.

              2. LucreLout Silver badge

                Re: I'm not afraid of the police. At all.

                A lot of white people aren't. Your system is racist but you're ok with it because you're not black.

                Using your argument then, I should be afraid of black police officers, yes?

                I'm not afraid of the police of any race, gender, age, orientation, or religion, because I have a policy of absolute compliance when dealing with them. Then, if I still feel wronged when I get home, I go see a solicitor, file a complaint, and take their job. What I don't do is give them a reason or excuse to take my life.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              The "few bad apples" excuse has been repeatedly debunked by evidence of systemic racism in the police force. If you want to call them bad apples, you better realise that the whole damn tree is mostly rotten, and "few" applies to those who still do the right thing, such as the de-escalation in Flint, Michigan where the sheriff removed his helmet and joined the community leaders.

              For that, he may have the sack once it all settles down because I think it's clear that Trump wants this to continue for as long as possible, because nobody now talks about the by now 106,000 covid19 deaths that his mismanagement has caused.

              1. This post has been deleted by its author

            3. Mark 78

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              "I'm not afraid of the police. At all. The vast majority of cops are fine. There are only a few bad apples, Just like in any other line of work."

              There are a few more than a few bad apples - there are all the ones who stand by and allow things to happen without saying anything on top of the obvious ones who assist in covering it up.

              I guess that if you are not afraid of the police, it is because you are white, so the risk to you of being killed while doing nothing wrong is significantly lower.

            4. Cynic_999 Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              People who quote the "few bad apples" mantra usually never complete the quote. It is the few "bad apples" *that spoils the entire barrel*.

              1. genghis_uk Bronze badge

                Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                Beat me to it...

                Exactly, the few bad apples argument is a problem because as those bad apples ripple up the chain of command, the good apples are increasingly under pressure to behave like the bad ones. The procedures ensure that good people act as bad cops.

                I have no doubt that the guys who go home to their wives and children are perfectly nice people but, once they are in uniform, they perform as police who are conditioned into the 'us and them' attitude. US police have lost the citizens in uniform mentality and think of themselves as a breed apart. This is aided by a court system that increasingly ignores wrongdoing and protects police officers and amplified by an increasingly militarised police force who want to use the toys!

                I though Judge Dredd was a parody of America as a police state not a handbook for po0lice to be judge, jury and executioner

                1. genghis_uk Bronze badge

                  Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                  This is what Policing looks like in America today...

                  pic.twitter.com/XGNN32dl1v

                  and in Loisville, where Breonna Taylor was shot, they are firing rubber bullets directly at reporters

                  pic.twitter.com/rUrkRZmo9n

                  Meanwhile, in Minnesota...

                  https://twitter.com/tkerssen/status/1266921821653385225

                  Tell me that is not something straight out of a dystopian future.

                  If they are doing this with impunity on live tv, they obviously do not fear any comeback from their superiors. Their entire setup is designed to intimidate.

                2. Alan Brown Silver badge

                  Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

                  "I have no doubt that the guys who go home to their wives and children are perfectly nice people"

                  Exactly. there are photos of the staff at Auchwitz ON THEIR DAYS OFF in 1944 having nice picnics and looking like perfectly nice ordinary germans. 15 years previously they WERE perfectly ordinary nice germans. What was previously unacceptable became acceptable - not just to those people, but also to their neighbours - as what is happening on duty has become acceptable to the neighbours of those police.

            5. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              "There are only a few bad apples"

              The original saying is "one bad apple spoils the whole barrel"

      2. gnasher729 Silver badge

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        Just a bit of US law: If your illegal action leads to the death of a person, then it is murder. If the person died from a heart attack after what should have been a reasonably harmless assault, it is murder. If you hit someone in the face, and they die because they had a previous skull injury that you didn't know about, it's murde, even if most victims would have walked away with a nose bleed.

        That policeman assaulted Floyd. It was a sustained assault over eight minutes, that should easily count as "premeditated". And Floyd died, which makes it premeditated murder.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          If you willingly failed to act on a situation or engineer a situation that results in death, isn't that murder too? Isn't that the core of depraved heart murder? AFAIK there is not even the need to show intent to kill - the sheer inaction is enough (which seems to imply Trump himself is on the hook for criminal charges, but Barr will quickly stop that with yet another twisted interpretation of law that doesn't bear close scrutiny).

          In that context, the other officers present also have something to answer. They could have stopped this, but didn't move a muscle.

          1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            "

            If you willingly failed to act on a situation or engineer a situation that results in death, isn't that murder too?

            "

            Failing to prevent a death is not generally a crime under UK law, no. There may be specific circumstances that give you a legal duty of care, but should you fail in that duty and someone dies, it would be manslaughter rather than murder.

            As for "engineering a situation that results in death" - it would depend on whether you did or should have known that the situation you engineered was significantly likely to result in death or injury. Even then it would be manslaughter rather than murder unless it could be proven that you had the deliberate intention of killing or seriously injuring someone (not necessarily the actual victim).

            I believe (but could be wrong) that France has a general law that requires its citizens to render reasonable assistance when a life is at risk.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

              Failing to prevent a death is not generally a crime under UK law, no.

              But we're not talking about the UK here. I think we're still a bit removed from the depth of aberrations that appear to happen in the US. The definition of depraved heart murder appears to address this, but it appears to rely on action, not an absence of it.

              Anyway, we'll see. There's so much politics swirling around this that it's quite possible that Trump might pardon some, just to keep the discord going..

      3. deadmonkey

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        "I'm not a fan of racist analysis"

        You sure you aren't?

      4. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        You completely miss the point. Sure, criminals do bad things. But they do not do so with the backing and support of the government, and they will be punished if caught. When government forces do bad things without facing any punishment it is a completely separate and different matter.

        The fact that scores of people were killed by street gangs does not worry me nearly so much as the fact that a police officer can get away with murdering an innocent Brazillian electrician and not even be rebuked - and his commanding officer is even promoted. Or that an innocent man carrying a table leg can be gunned down by police with impunity. Or a naked and unarmed man can be shot and killed in his own bedroom by police who raided his home.

      5. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          You hear what you want. If those words came to your mind, that's on you. I downvoted the post, but not for the fact that he called out the sanctification of the name of an apparent career criminal. And he specifically stated that his history in no way justified his treatment.

      6. LucreLout Silver badge

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        There are good reasons to protest Floyd's death. I think the policeman did something wrong and needs to be held to account, but probably not strangling Floyd with his knee. My understanding (caveat - from a web site) is that the medical report said there was no physical trauma to the neck which would have resulted in strangulation. Whatever "kneeling on Floyd's neck" entailed, it was not lethal physical trauma.

        The purpose of kneeling on his neck is two-fold. Firstly it restrains his head such that he cannot headbutt an officer. Remember, Floyd, you, me, they don't know us so they have to assume we might headbutt them, and Floyd was a rather strong looking man.

        The second purpose is to cut off oxygen such that it weakens the person you're restraining and makes them more compliant.

        8 minutes. 8 minutes should not be required for either case - the oxygen will delplete in a lot shorter time allowing for the removal of the knee, even if its only raised a few inches.

        8 minutes.

        As for Floyd's "good name" I think we need to be truthful about that too. He had a history of theft, criminal trespass, drug possession, and aggravated robbery with a gun. It has no bearing on what happened to him, but

        As for Floyd's "good name" I think we need to be truthful about that too. He had a history of theft, criminal trespass, drug possession, and aggravated robbery with a gun. It has no bearing on what happened to him. Fullstop. FTFY.

        By all accounts I've read he was trying to turn his life around. It boils down to this, if we think a home invasion, armed or otherwise, should not result in a life sentence, then it should not result in a death sentence.

        While I personally do believe an armed home invasion should result in a life sentence, that is not the law. Once released he should have been presumed to be no more dangerous than anyone else, or he should not have been released.

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

          So you say anyone who commits a crime should be given a life sentence, subject to the determination that they no longer pose a threat to society?

          Interesting idea. Let me think about it. Umm, no.

          1. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

            So you say anyone who commits a crime should be given a life sentence, subject to the determination that they no longer pose a threat to society?

            Where do you think I suggested that? Sorry, but either you can't read or you can't reason.

            What I said, and I'll repeat the words for you, was "armed home invasion should result in a life sentence at least until assessed to no longer pose a threat".

            Now, you might not agree with that, which is fine, but what you don't get to do is conjure up some fevered delusion and ascribe it to me. I care not if you got caught shoplifting a copy of playgirl in your youth - its not exactly dangerous, is it?

            Break into my house when my family are home, and provided you stay downstairs, we'll all be just fine - you can have the telly, you can take the car, my insurer will replace them or I'll work some more and do it myself. However, if you try to come upstairs where my family sleep I will not be assuming you mean to bring us milk n cookies, I will assume you are there to kill me and do unspeakable things to my wife and children, and I will act accordingly and without warning. It is unlikely in the extreme that both of us would survive. That is what armed home invasion begets.

            So yes, rather than you getting released while you pose an ongoing threat, having taken weapons into someones home to harm and rob them, then coming to my home, where best case one of us ends up in the ground and the other one in jail, hell yes I think you should stay in jail at the first offence such that there doesn't need to be a second. If and when you aren't a danger to others then by all means you should be freed to rebuild your life, but not before then. What purpose do you imagine that might serve?

      7. slimshady76
        Mushroom

        Re: "Yes, Anon activists are back."

        This Chauvin guy had already been involved in at least another 4 previous minority killings by the Police force. Her wife also waited until he was detained to fill in her divorce papers. The guy has a tendency to inflict justice by his own hand, and that is not compatible with the definition of police, not in Minnesota nor anywhere else. Police upholds the law, it doesn't impart justice. That's why we have a justice system.

  3. Danny 2 Silver badge

    Antifa ; Anonymous

    I've met members of both.

    Despite what everyone has read Antifa is a tiny closed-membership group, about ten to twenty members in the UK, probably the same in the US. They have one role which they stick to tightly, standing up to street-fighting fascists. They don't get involved in anything else. Didn't get involved in Occupy and I assume not these protests. Many young protesters called themselves 'antifa' because they assumed it was a cool contraction of anti-fascist, and Antifa were always livid about that and threatened them until they stopped. I told them I thought they were too protective about their name, but now the POTUS has labelled them a terrorist group I understand. But when a name gets co-opted, it's best to rebrand.

    Anonymous started with a protest against Scientology which was cool. It's always reported that their Guy Fawkes masks were inspired by Alan Moore's 'V For Vendetta' I went up to them at the time and said, "V For Vendetta - cool!"

    Sadly they hadn't heard of V For Vendetta, or Alan Moore, they were just the coolest looking masks in the nearest shop. Alan Moore was proud of the connection so nobody tell him. I'm sure they all got into him afterwards.

    They published their 'Low Orbit Ion Cannon' attack plans, I forget against who, on an activist website, and me and another techie checked it out and went ballistic at them, and warned everyone not to participate. Ironically I guess it wasn't anonymous, it displayed your IP address. I recommended an HP stress test that did mask your IP but they knew better, and dozens of their volunteers were arrested. I thought at the time that was deliberate, to mask the one or two of them with botnets.

    1. Danny 2 Silver badge

      Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

      I forgot about the Black Bloc, one of the Daily Mail's most dangerous villainous groups. It isn't and never was a group. It was a list of twenty tactics on how to prevent innocent injuries during resistance to police attacking a demonstration. I only read it once, it was hosted on the personal server of some Republican Arizona professor under a 'free speech' disclaimer circa 2002. I think some teenager wrote it, the only gem of wisdom I can recall is, 'Don't throw objects from the back of a crowd, only from the front'. Something about wearing black clothing to avoid identification, changing in and out of those clothes, and wearing padding under them to lessen injuries when the police beat you.

      You can buy 'The Anarchist Handbook' on Amazon. Don't. Firstly the author has disclaimed it. Secondly, it's incredibly dangerously inaccurate and misguided. I downloaded it in about 1990 at work, back when you were allowed to call yourself an anarchist at work, and as an engineer it was extremely if inadvertently funny.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

        That's a trifle on the non sequitur side, don't you think?

      2. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

        "

        You can buy 'The Anarchist Handbook' on Amazon. Don't.

        "

        You forgot to mention that owning a copy of that book is illegal in the UK, and could get you serious jail time.

        1. Peter2 Silver badge

          Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

          Yes and no. This comes down to one of those context things.

          If you were arrested for a terrorism offense and you got raided by the police and while searching they discover that you have it, then it's "materials useful for the commission of a terrorism offense" and your in the shit.

          The chap arrested for just being in possession of a copy had been fighting in Syria for 6 months, then came back to the UK. Plod knew he had a copy of the anarchist handbook and arrested him for terrorism offenses and prosecuted. The Jury found him not guilty on the basis that he'd been fighting against ISIS and there was no evidence that he planned on blowing anything up in the UK.

          So if your a law abiding citizen and have a copy then your fine.

          If you post a message somewhere saying "i'm going to blow up X" then if the police do a search on your house and discover a copy, then your buggered.

      3. heyrick Silver badge

        Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

        "Secondly, it's incredibly dangerously inaccurate and misguided."

        Yeah, I got a copy back in the early '90s too. Enjoyed the bits on playing with the phone network, but... Jeez, was the nitro glycerine recipe the one you made in a saucepan on your cooker? I don't really remember now, just recall that at the time I thought it was a surely a subtle way of cleansing the gene pool of idiots.

      4. Chris Manson

        Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

        I remember 'The Anarchist Cookbook'. Was it published at the same time as the book you describe?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

      You: a self proclaimed Antifa spokesman or com-padre.

      Reality: Breitbart define who gets labelled as Antifa, a right wing Trump propaganda outlet defines who is in the mystical group. They pump the label just after Trump got elected. What they label as antifa is antifa.

      Breitbart a man named Chris Tomlinson started pumping it in 2016 just after Trump got elected, derived from German site einporzent. :

      https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2016/11/25/german-city-accused-of-funding-left-wing-extremists/

      FALSE FLAG OPERATION

      Chris Tomlinson based in London.

      https://muckrack.com/chris-tomlinson-1

      https://twitter.com/TomlinsonCJ

      His pinned tweet: "Now that Antifa is a declared terrorist group, the US must issue a travel ban for all foreign member of this terror group, those who aid them and those who fund them."

      You can see his focus.

      So for example, heres a typical Chris Tomlinson message (ss the muckrack page):

      "Antifa were out in Montreal last night. The city has one of the largest cells in Canada. "

      It's handy they keep him so informed as to where their cells are!!

      FALSE FLAG OPERATION

      How 'exactly would *your* Antifa 'Danny 2', control what Breitbart chooses to label as Antifa with their 2016 label? Does Breitbart vet them past your lot? Or you? No. Breitbart decides who is Antifa, they control that label and their site.

      Or for that matter how would *your* claimed Antifa group control what Fox News chooses to label as Antifa? Does Fox New contact your lot before deciding to label some group as 'antifa'? No.

      https://www.foxnews.com/category/us/crime/antifa

      Of course it couldn't. They just label anything they like as "Antifa" and they do.

      Antifa is a right wing label, a group that's everywhere and nowhere, depending on what Breitbart decides to label as Antifa!

      IT'S A FALSE FLAG OPERATION

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Antifa ; Anonymous

        I do get your point. For a decade I always tried to correct the media about what the word 'hacker' meant, but once everyone except techies thought it meant breaking into computers then I guess that's what it means.

  4. georgezilla

    To scare .....

    Antifa has become a term to scare the weak minded, petty, fearful and hateful in America.

    A target for those people

    Usually the old and the ignorant.

    And mostly Republican/Conservative and the Cult of Truimp1.

    It's just "red meat" to feed the animals.

    And then to distract from the ineptness and incompetence that is the President of the U.S..

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: To scare .....

      If they are trying to scare me with the term, they are doing a pretty bad job of it. I hadn't even heard it used for at least a year, until the last week or so.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: To scare .....

        Then you weren't paying attention.

        I heard about them in the early 2000's. "Oh, some bored folks beating up skinheads at concerts--whatever." But, you know--"everyone hates the Illinois Nazis"--let's drive a car through a bunch of idiots!

        November of 2016, Antifa showed up in force with significant brownshirt tactics.

        They've been popping up whenever there was a riot to be had ever since.

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Backwards?

      I thought the ineptness and incompetence of POTUS was to distract people from everything else.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: Backwards?

        Zaphod Beeblebrox III would like a word - and it isn't "aardvark"

    3. You aint sin me, roit Silver badge
      Trollface

      How can they be scary?

      I'm sure there are good people on both sides...

      1. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: How can they be scary?

        THE PRESIDENT: Well, certainly there were a lot of different people, and they were good people too. And they were protesting, and they were protesting for the right reason. They were protesting in honor of a man, George Floyd, where something happened that shouldn’t have happened.

        -- https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-roundtable-discussion-industry-executives-reopening/

        I'm sure you'll agree.

  5. dave 81

    If only I could get my friends to investigate me

    If only I could get my friends to investigate me if I ever get accused of a crime, just like the police get the police to investigate themselves. That is the root of the problem.

  6. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese

    radio channel

    the channel used by the Chicago PD was not encrypted or protected, and could easily be broadcast over by anyone with the right equipment.

    In this day and age, that sounds a bit, well, rubbish. I remember using a VHF radio to tune into British police radio traffic when I was a small lad, but that was decades ago...technology and security have moved on.

    1. DemeterLast

      Re: radio channel

      Getting new police radios in a city government is an onerous process. Getting nearly anything that isn't surplus military for your SWAT team is onerous. Aside from the bidding and contract awarding process, which is rife with corruption and influence peddling, you also have to retrofit vehicles and train officers.

      If you have two brain cells to rub together you'd think this would be easy, but it isn't, especially in a big city like Chicago. It's so much easier to just keep using what you already have.

      1. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese

        Re: radio channel

        If you have two brain cells to rub together you'd think this would be easy, but it isn't, especially in a big city like Chicago. It's so much easier to just keep using what you already have.

        I wasn;t making any comment on how easy (or not) it might be to implement. What I was saying is that in the UK for at least a couple of decades emergency services have been using secure communications (TETRA, provided by the Airwave network) and I know that similar secure networks are used by these services in a multitude of other countries. It strikes me as odd that in the USA they're still using something so insecure for this purpose.

        1. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

          Re: radio channel

          Our area did this (eastern Iowa), RACOM has a multi-county mutli-agency radio system, basically a TETRA-like system built probably from some of the police, fire, and ambulance agencies existing sites plus whatever other ones make sense for coverage. But this is actually surprisingly uncommon in the US.

          A lot of the US, the police, radio, and fire may or may not even have compatible systems, they are seperate, coverage varies depending. Some areas have at least combined these (when they went to digital trunked service) so there aren't different coverage areas depending on if your police or fire for instance.

          FirstNet I think was envisioned as a TETRA-like arrangement, but in reality the band was given to AT&T, they run LTE on it, and so it's really not for radios, it's for data and phone-type services for agencies that want to contract it through AT&T FirstNet instead of some other cell phone company.

    2. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

      Re: radio channel

      "If only I could get my friends to investigate me if I ever get accused of a crime, just like the police get

      In this day and age, that sounds a bit, well, rubbish. I remember using a VHF radio to tune into British police radio traffic when I was a small lad, but that was decades ago...technology and security have moved on."

      Nope. Here in the sticks, a company called RACOM rolled out a multi-county multi-agency radio system, it's encrypted and rotates keys hourly. The counties here do not have loads and loads of radios so they went to the expense to replace them over a pretty short time. In contrast, a few big cities, the cost of replacing all the radios is so high, and budget poor enough, they are STILL on plain old FM. Not very many as far as I know but yes a few.

      Also.. in many US areas, the digital radio system is not some seperate system from the older analog FM system. They upgraded to digital trunking (instead of manually changing channels among several) decades ago usually but still run FM voice, then added encrypted voice as a replacement to FM voice later. So it's a pretty standard thing in the US for radios to fall back to FM if an FM signal overpowers the encrypted digital signal.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

    1) The official coroner found no evidence of intentional homicide in the way the police treated George Floyd. The "independent" coroner's report (paid for by Mr Floyd's family) said it was entirely intentional. The truth will be somewhere between these two reports, probably more towards the official report - no cop wants to be done for killing an innocent man and given the feelings many people have towards the police in America, they know it would be a very strong probability if/when anything happens.

    2) If you cannot breathe, you cannot struggle. If you carry on struggling for over ten minutes, you can breathe. If you can carry on struggling against three or more cops for ten minutes, you are breathing just fine.

    3) If you are in trouble with the police and being filmed by members of the public, the cops are very unlikely to get away with doing anything they should not do - do what they ask and they have no excuse for mistreating you. Struggle, and you are at the very least justifying them restraining you.

    4) Walking up behind cops at any sort of disturbance and claiming to be a member of the press is not going to make you safe. You might well be a member of the press - but you could also be someone with less helpful or honorable intent (not that many members of the broadcast media are exactly covering themselves in glory in that regard at the moment) - or do you seriously think a rioter or a terrorist is going to walk up and say "look out, I'm going to attack you" ?

    5) Rioters have been aiming fireworks at the cops - do the media really think the rioters will be selective in their aim when throwing them? "Ooh look, a journo, I better not aim over there". And who will get the blame when the inevitable casualties arise? Not many media types walking around in full riot gear with shields and a press card ain't gonna stop an exploding firework.

    6) A bottle of gasoline looks pretty much like a bottle of juice until someone sticks a rag in it, lights it and throws it. Cops WILL err on the side of caution when attacked.

    7) Millions of people think someone needs to answer for the deaths of so many people in recent history but we are not all on the streets rioting.

    8) Most cops still sign up "To Serve And Protect" the rest of society. What will happen when the rioters take out all the decent ones and only the thugs are left standing?

    1. MrMerrymaker Silver badge

      Re: some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

      You're horrible and have this all wrong.

      No beer for you.

    2. Jellied Eel Silver badge

      Re: some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

      2) If you cannot breathe, you cannot struggle. If you carry on struggling for over ten minutes, you can breathe. If you can carry on struggling against three or more cops for ten minutes, you are breathing just fine.

      And if you're dead, you cannot struggle. If you're unconscious, you cannot struggle. If you're being strangled, you eventually die. Sadly, Floyd demonstrated this.

      There's perhaps some semantics around 'strangulation'-

      NOUN

      1) the action or state of strangling or being strangled. "death due to strangulation"

      2) medicine

      a condition in which the blood supply to a part of the body, typically a hernia, is reduced or cut off as a result of compression of blood vessels.

      So there are a few forms of strangulation in the nasty sense. A 'choke' hold, where the intent is to cut off airways. Person can't breathe, so go unconscious and may then die. Obviously rather risky, especially given the neck and airway is rather fragile, so death can easily occur if the airway is damaged & swelling occurs.

      Then there's the 'medical' version. The brain (in most people) rather likes oxygenated blood delived by some large blood vessels in the neck. Compress those, and person loses consciousness, and continued pressure leads to death. That's generally faster than choking, and can also be rather lethal.

      That's all part of any decent self-defence or restraint training.. generally in the form of 'Don't do this!'. Also one of the differences between judo & the 'thugs version', ju-jitsu which includes strikes and holds considered too risky for competition judo. The police officer should have known this, and removed pressure once Floyd stopped resisting or fell unconscious. He didn't, and death was pretty much inevitable. He fully deserves prosecution, as do his fellow officers for not preventing the death.

      1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

        Re: some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

        I was completely with you until your called jujitsu the "thug's version" of judo. There are certainly thugs in both, but my first sensi in jujitsu bounce the one that showed up in a hurry. Yes, most forms of jujitsu are not sports. On the street, the rule that matters more than any other is that I survive. The next one is that I cause the minimum damage to the other person necessary to ensure my survival. That means that I am responsible to avoid even having a confrontation at all. Failing that, I am to avoid even embarrassing the guy. It also means that (in my form) unless I'm a third degree or higher black belt, I treat a knife attack like a mortal threat, and respond in kind.

        If that makes me a "thug" in your book, then I don't want to get to know you.

        1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

          Re: some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

          I was completely with you until your called jujitsu the "thug's version" of judo. There are certainly thugs in both, but my first sensi in jujitsu bounce the one that showed up in a hurry.

          It was a quote from a judo sensei when I told them I did jujitsu. We were good mates, so a comment made in good sport. Especially as we both knew the history. And would both wind up the friend who did aikido (circle jerks). But I started training in jujitsu after time served kick boxing (mugendo) after a team member got into a street fight. He didn't start it, but the person that did fell, hit their head and died.. So a manslaughter charge. That was a bit of a shock, and luckily a police officer came to the dojo and explained how the law worked.. So I decided to train in jujitsu so I had more options to control and dissuade an opponent.

          But TL;DR version is anyone who's done any decent martial arts or self-defence training should know that strikes to the neck or choke holds are very dangerous.. As the officer in this case should have known.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      8 minutes 46 seconds

      You know there's video right, from multiple angles of the man in handcuffs on the floor with the officer squishing his neck? Till he died.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3NUoifYTRA

      I mean I get you want to write a zillion words to change the reality here, but with the video and all its really difficult.

      @"do the media really think the rioters will be selective in their aim when throwing them"

      Rioters are breaking car windows too, there's video of that too:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgJ56mj0yAc

      Oh wait, that's the police. So many agent provocateurs around. All caught on video.

      And this too, a man is breaking up pavement and rocks to throw at people, only its not quite what it seems:

      https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/guaghc/protesters_hand_rioter_over_to_police/

      A man breaking up rocks with a hammer to throw, is captured by protestors and handed over to the nearby police.

      LOOK AT 22 seconds. The police are 6 feet from where the man was breaking up the rocks. They did nothing. They were a few feet away from him, as he prepped projectiles, and they did nothing till the protestors bundle him up.

      He's smashing up the pavement right in front of them, and the police are just standing there doing nothing.

      I mean how stupid do you think we are?

      1. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: 8 minutes 46 seconds

        I'm not sure the 8 minutes 46 seconds is relevant, it's the fact he was (reportedly) unconscious for several minutes of that. (I haven't actually watched it, because I don't really want to watch someone being killed).

        Regarding the video your reddit link references, my assumption was that the police didn't try and capture him because they were holding position and consciously avoiding aggressive action against the protesters. They may have feared that trying to arrest him would result in the crowd responding violently, and losing a corner of pavement was preferable for both sides to a pitched battle.

        Even when the protesters thrust him at the police, they were using their batons as a barrier. No attempt to strike the protesters. Which is nice to see, and rather better than the police behaviour in many other videos.

        The reason I don't like using that video as a reference for peaceful protest is the "Get the white people. The fucking white people" racism evident within it. "Get the idiot twat taking apart the pavement" would be a reasonable response but no, they had to bring race into it.

        That said, this woman is absolutely marvellous:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4buxiLIQT8

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: 8 minutes 46 seconds

          And... I have a new hero. What a beautiful woman.

    4. heyrick Silver badge

      Re: some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

      "Cops WILL err on the side of caution when attacked."

      Which, too often, seems to use the logic of "kill them before they kill us", regardless of whether or not the newly devoid of life had any such intentions. It's easy to make up some shit when the accused isn't around to tell their side of the story.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: some things to consider, commenting from your nice safe keyboard

      "4) Walking up behind cops at any sort of disturbance and claiming to be a member of the press is not going to make you safe. You might well be a member of the press - but you could also be someone with less helpful or honorable intent (not that many members of the broadcast media are exactly covering themselves in glory in that regard at the moment) - or do you seriously think a rioter or a terrorist is going to walk up and say "look out, I'm going to attack you" ?"

      The Australia reporter assaulted in London was attacked by someone using the cover of the protests to do so, she was lucky, he apparently said the usual (rhymes with haloo snackbar) jihadi phrase and got pushed off before he could stab her with his sharpened screwdriver (ice-pick?), not seen much about that on the UK's Midden Stream Main Sewer Media.

  8. JDPower Bronze badge

    They flooded the service with K-pop videos? Are we sure that was related as that's what K-pop fans do EVERYWHERE

  9. Cederic Silver badge

    anti-brutality protests

    Out of curiousity why would the Dallas police be asking for evidence of peaceful anti-brutality protests?

    It's almost as there's something this article chose not to mention.

  10. jason_derp Bronze badge

    Good Stuff

    There is rarely a time where messing with the police can be considered an overall negative. Good on these guys.

  11. Danny 2 Silver badge

    BTS

    From the Guardian:

    If you’ve been following the #BlackLivesMatter hashtag on social media you may have been surprised this morning by a sudden flood of Korean characters and the repeated phrase: “We stand against racial discrimination. We condemn violence. You, I and we all have the right to be respected. We will stand together.”

    The source of this is the world’s biggest K-Pop band, BTS, who posted on social media this morning

    [I just got a curt email from (I think) Antifa about the US protests: "Antifa are antifascist not pyromaniac"]

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