back to article Document? Library? A new kind of component? Microsoft had a hard time explaining what its Fluid Framework is

An intriguing technology preview at Microsoft's just-finished Build event is Fluid Framework – but the company has not done a great job of communicating what exactly it is. Microsoft opened up on the Fluid Framework a year ago at Build 2019. It is presented as a feature of Office 365, by which document components such as …

  1. ParasiteParty

    Will this shite never stop?

    What the arse do we need this crap for? Sounds like poncing around with fonts and layouts to me. I never had a word processor on the Dragon 32, but I had an Amstrad PCW 9512??? something or other with a daisywheel printer and that was fine. I even did a bit if DTP on the Atari ST and of course once I moved to PC was able to write with much swisher applications. I get that you might want to update one type of document embedded in another, this has been around for years.

    What is my point?

    Well we have users that do not know the difference between a template and a document (e.g. docx vs dotx) and so the chances of them getting to grips with this "fluid" is a big fat zero.

    Is this going to change the world? No. They would be better spending time fixing the multitude of problems with Windows 10.

    1. logicalextreme

      Re: Will this shite never stop?

      We need it for "collaboration", like everything else in the past few years.

      Y'know, because collaboration isn't best achieved by actually communicating with others and having rational business processes; what we actually needed was more JavaScript.

      1. Anonymous Coward

        Re: Will this shite never stop?

        You have to understand that a Fluid Framework requires a Fluid Definition.

        Which is the problem.

        Making shite fluid just makes a bigger mess. And this applies to all word processors.

    2. veti Silver badge

      Re: Will this shite never stop?

      It's not for users.

      As to what it's for - read up on "fire and motion". Classic Microsoft strategy.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge

        Re: Will this shite never stop?

        interesting point - I started reading that and saw this: "What drives me crazy is that ever since my first job I’ve realized that as a developer, I usually average about two or three hours a day of productive coding".

        It is generally my own practice to bill one of two ways: a) I'm on site and it's "on site time"; b) I'm at home and it's "when I'm productive" time. I can generally get a full week in with 'b' but sometimes must do 'a' to satisfy a client''s need. So I end up working "in spurts" when doing 'b' and it's quite effective to go for 2-3 hours, play some video games, get back to it, etc. until you've done your hours... but I digress.

        So this is a typical "productive day" for a Micros~1.DEV ? And the article might say it all, it took him WAY too many paragraphs to get to the point. "A little every day" is interesting, but if his day starts with web surfing while "on the clock" his manager should restrict his browsing hours (or NONE at all).

        There must be a ZILLION alternate projects at Micros~1 that people could volunteer for during those "think about it" periods that we all get. A prioritized list might help. Go down the bug list and submit a patch. That's a good start. Audit a function from the list of things that need an audit. Then get back to your normal assignment and you might have NEW inspiration. But then again, that's how I try to do things. Juggle mutliple projects so you can "stay manic" and pound out code all day long.

        Even better, hybrid office/home work. Go in for 4-5 hours, to beat the traffic but make the meetings, then take it home with you for 2-3 hours a day. [that works VERY well for me when I need to be on site]. Surf the web while you drink coffee at the start of the day, check mail to see if anyone has a particular issue, drive in with MUCH lighter traffic, maybe think about stuff from morning mail, arrive, do meetings and get things done, leave before 4, drive home in relatively light traffic, then arrive home, read 'The Register' and comment on a few things, then finish up your day while eating your dinner and don't spill it on the keyboard....

        A nice PRODUCTIVE day, where you're actually doing WORK for the hours you're being paid.

        (pirate flag for being such a PRIVATEER, harrr)

        Admittedly with the 'work at home' part, the ability to collaborate on documents now becomes a LITTLE more important. but chances are that you could do that BETTER by sitting in a room at lunch, with plates of sandwiches and with 2 or 3 people standing behind the fastest typist (or with the monitor contents on a projected screen), going over the collab document one part at a time and letting "that one guy" do the typing and combine things, fix it, etc. while you discuss the contents and "collaborate" the old fashioned way.

    3. bombastic bob Silver badge

      Re: Will this shite never stop?

      yet more client+bandwidth expensive "but light on the server" bloatware to ruin productivity for MOST things while claiming "uber-flexibility" to a targeted niche of customer 'wants' [not necessarily 'needs'], using (of course) JAVASCRIPT.

      At least, that's what it sounds like to ME. I was LESS than 'unimpressed' with Google Docs and their alleged ability to do the same thing with their on-line editor (using JavaScript in a browser) that performs like a pregnant elephant in a tutu.

      What is it about these "developers" and their OBSESSION with CLIENT-SIDE JAVASCRIPT? it's not "a solution"... more like THE PROBLEM with "online anything" these days.

      And just how often are multiple people trying to edit the same document at the same time anyway? Normally a collaboration has people sandboxing their own stuff, and an "editor" or supervisor combines it all. I expect that online latency issues affecting the ability to even EDIT the thing are going to be worse for getting stuff done than doing things "the old fashioned way".

      It's worth pointing out that we have methods that are well defined for working with source code in a programming environment. Perhaps using THAT approach makes better sense, when working on a collaborated document, provided that you bust it up into "work units" or similar so that .the results can be later combined by "the editor" responsible for it.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Will this shite never stop?

        I guess your own personal preferences and requirements are universal and we must therefore all adopt them.

  2. poohbear

    Are there any proof-of-concept viruses yet?

  3. J27

    Most .NET developers also know Javascript. Because .NET is very popular for web applications and JavaScript is essential for client-side scripting on web applications (at least for now).

    Additionally, and this may come as a shock to you. Good developers can pick up new languages and frameworks pretty easily. It's not like those crusty old IT guys who freak out every time a Windows patch comes out.

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge

      "JavaScript is essential for client-side scripting on web applications"

      If it can't be done with just CSS and HTML5, or on the server end, you probably shouldn't be doing it on the client side. My opinion. But yeah no doubt C-pound devs are familiar with JavaScript, especially because C-pound was originally derived (like JavaScript was) from Java...

      1. Glen 1

        Ugh. This again.

        "If it can't be done with just CSS and HTML5, or on the server end, you probably shouldn't be doing it on the client side."

        Ugh. This again.

        The example I used last time was sorting a table by different columns. It is trivial. It shouldn't require a full HTTP round trip. Without Javascript, you are effectively doing the HTML-only calculator again. NO.

        Don't get me wrong, many sites go over the top, how much script do you really need to show a page that is just text and images (with perhaps a few flourishes)? You *needed* JS for different screen sizes before CSS caught up.

        However, this draconian "Web Pages shall only *ever* be text and images forevermore" bullshit belongs to the days of RealPlayer.

      2. bpfh

        JS was derived from Java?

        Maybe vaguely inspired Java by when Netscape collaborated with Sun in the mid nineties, but not derived from it?

        1. AMBxx Silver badge

          Re: JS was derived from Java?

          JavaScript has semi-colons as line delimitor and has case sensitive varables. Therefore it's more like Java than VB.

          That's about as close as it gets.

  4. ColonelClaw


    Has anyone ever come across a solution looking for a problem more than this? Answers below please!

    I'm going to get in early with Clippy, The Ribbon, Win8 Start Menu, XBox Kinect. Hmmm, there appears to be a common factor.

    1. ntzq

      Re: Question

      This is nothing more than the Microsoft version of the failed Google Wave. Remember that?

      1. cpm86

        Re: Question

        My first thought exactly. Google Wave was really neat but nobody ever found a use for it. The SQL Server Edge stuff also revealed by MS looks strangely similar to what Sybase were trying to do with SQL Anywhere not so many years ago.

    2. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge

      Re: Question


      Damn, there goes my idea to build a killer Clippy component

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    OLE, oh-lay oh-lay oh-lay (and not forgetting OpenDoc)

    Compound documents again anyone?

    1. G Mac
      Thumb Up

      Re: OLE, oh-lay oh-lay oh-lay (and not forgetting OpenDoc)

      Yes! Although my first thought was that this is "Internet based DDE". DDE still gives me nightmares.

  6. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. bombastic bob Silver badge

      Re: Fluid Shit more like...

      maybe they're going with the Bruce Lee reference, being "like water". Still "market speak" though.

      This is going to become a prime example of what happens when marketing tries to engineer stuff.

  7. DrXym

    Sounds like OpenDoc smashed into Google Wave

    Maybe it will be useful or maybe it will be a confusing mess.

  8. JasonT

    The security dumpster fire of client-side editing of Fluid fragments that refer to each other is going to be something to behold...

  9. martinusher Silver badge

    Yes, but....

    ...what are people actually producing with this kind of short attention span collaboration?

    (I think I know the answer. They produce bright ideas for others to implement. All Blue Sky. Seen it before more times than I care to count.)

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