back to article If American tech is used to design or make that chip, you better not ship it to Huawei, warns Uncle Sam

The Trump administration on Friday officially clamped down on the use of US technology worldwide to manufacture chips for Huawei, cutting off the mega-corp from vital semiconductor supply chains. Last year, the Chinese telecoms kit maker, along with its chip wing HiSilicon and 113 subsidiaries, were blacklisted by the US …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Also Microsoft

    Huawei still makes laptops with Microsoft installed on them. A lot of Chinese companies do, you should also block Microsoft from selling to those companies. I think its terrible that Microsoft are allowed to bypass the restriction and supply China!

    And Microsoft products are also on Huawei's app store, Skype lite, MS Office, Bing, all these breaking sanctions. And of course Microsoft Windows is being used to design chips for Huawei in China, so Microsoft are in violation of this if they don't put a stop to that!

    OK, I'm being disingenuous, my Huawei TabPro is slightly easier to remove the Baidu spyware than the Google spyware. The few chips that came from the USA (wifi filters etc.) they replaced. So from my point of view USA cannot make an Android Tablet without China, but China apparently can make an Android Tablet without USA. I'd also like a PC without Microsoft, and this pushes China to do that too.

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out of global trade!

    --------------

    @"That means that even if the semiconductors were commissioned or designed by Huawei and manufactured by foundries outside of the States, the chips will still be subject to export limits if the manufacturing processes use any US equipment or design tools"

    Europe of course didn't follow USA in this sanction. China has its own foundaries, and TSMC is a Taiwan based foundary, they won't follow this rule either. They will however probably cancel that Arizona chip manufacturing plant to avoid this liability:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2020-05-15/tsmc-plans-12-billion-u-s-chip-plant-in-arizona-video

    ------------

    As an aside.

    Look, I see you're doing the "China China China" thing. Trump is trying to distract while opening up plague states. You know what he's doing and what their planning is really really really bad. I get he's trying to work up hate against China to distract from his actions, I don't get why you're complicit in it.

    UK Chatham House think tank (John Major et al) is doing its "China Covid recovery is all fake news". etc.. to try to help that. The problem with that game is lots of countries are also successful with quarantine, are they also lying? Is New Zealand lying? Is Vietnam? Thailand? Japan? France? Germany?.... OK, so that's a lost cause, if China was lying they would have tens of millions of bodies to hide. And the problem with Chatham House trying to help in that lie, is that he's pushing states to open up before they're clear of Covid. So they will have a second wave, and you will be complicit in that.

    The UK-US special relationship is between the UK *people* and the USA *people*, not the guy they didn't vote for. Just because he needs to distract Americans from the death toll he's about to hit them with, doesn't mean you have to help hide the bodies.

    1. John Savard Silver badge

      Re: Also Microsoft

      If TSMC wants to build fabs that make 5nm chips and 3nm chips, and so on, some of the devices used there come from the United States. So they have to obey these rules, or they will be cut off from the things they need to keep making more modern chips. It is not like China is a bigger market for them than the United States and other Western countries.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Also Microsoft

        I suspect they'll simply switch to non US software, and cancel the US chip fab plant. I think Samsung was ahead on 5nm, what specific 'device'?

        @"It is not like China is a bigger market for them than the United States and other Western countries."

        Europe and UK aren't in on these trade wars. Trump has trade wars with them too, and they have retaliatory tariffs of their own against the US. You're on your own.

        Now if Trump really wants to hurt those Chinese, he really needs to stop them using Windows software! That would show them! Take away their Windows 10 and they'll be begging for mercy. They'll lose the incredible power of Windows 10, and it will set them back decades, maybe centuries.... DOIT DOIT DOIT!

        1. ColinPa

          Re: Also Microsoft

          How would you stop them? If I was the Chinese, I would use the software without a license, and block the IP addresses that Windows uses to phone home.

        2. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Linux

          Re: Also Microsoft

          "Now if Trump really wants to hurt those Chinese, he really needs to stop them using Windows software!"

          Notably MISSING, because it would NOT actually "hur"t them to NOT be able to use Windows...

          (yeah we don't need the 'next OS' created by China as a competitor to Windows, now do we?)

          Similar with Android and iOS I bet.

          (the day of widespread Linux on the desktop might be *hastened* if Windows _were_ denied to them!)

      2. katrinab Silver badge

        Re: Also Microsoft

        US technology (Intel) seems to be capable of producing 14nm chips, and maybe some 10nm chips in small quantities.

        1. Anonymous Custard Silver badge
          Headmaster

          Re: Also Microsoft

          The problem is that all of the fabs and manufacturers (Intel, TSMC etc) use semiconductor manufacturing tools from 3rd party vendors. The largest of those vendors is Applied Materials - a US company.

          Trump's declaration is trying to enforce that the makers can't use any of those tools sold by US tool vendors to make chips, even in overseas fabs.

          Whether trying to make such restrictions on tools that have been sold and installed and that are the property of the overseas fab is left as an exercise for the lawyers...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Also Microsoft

            Wow that's really going to screw over Applied Materials. Looking at their kit, I can see Oxford Instruments is a player, at least for the kit I chose to do an alternate source on (PECVD).

            It doesn't look impossible for the Chinese to solve, just a real annoyance. I guess they'll buy up OXIG:LSE.

            https://plasma.oxinst.com/home/our-facility

            Edit: Looks like Oxford Instruments kit is used to make Huawei's Laser face scan chip, so they already have a relationship.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Also Microsoft

              Solayer, Generis, CCR Technology, Germany. Berliner Glas wafer handling, bonding chunking, etc. Lots in Germany too.

              Some in China:

              http://www.samco-plasma.cn/

              Also Oxford Instruments there too:

              https://plasma.oxinst.cn/campaigns/technology/ald

              I think China can simply ban US device makers from being used in the making of chips intended for China and suppliers won't have difficulty replacing those suppliers.

              I think Trump destruction can be confined to the USA economy. Issue a 'stay-at-home' order and quarantine the disease.

            2. Alan Brown Silver badge

              Re: Also Microsoft

              "Wow that's really going to screw over Applied Materials."

              At some point, US companies are going to start decamping North America

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
            Coat

            Re: Also Microsoft

            "Whether trying to make such restrictions on tools that have been sold and installed and that are the property of the overseas fab is left as an exercise for the lawyers..."

            What if the s/w running the machine has to phone home to keep the licence valid and the s/w working? A bit like Win10 and all the Software as a Service we see nowadays. I'm sure no one would dare break the Ts&Cs to override that. Lawyers!!!

          3. big_D Silver badge

            Re: Also Microsoft

            And the US Government will reimburse these companies for lost revenues due to its petty actions?

            No, thought not.

      3. Sanguma Bronze badge

        Re: Also Microsoft

        If TSMC wants to build fabs that make 5nm chips and 3nm chips, and so on

        I live in terror of the day when Uncle Sam bans five and three nautical mile chips as a threat to US security ...

    2. Louis Schreurs Bronze badge

      Narcissist

      I am so sick&tired of Uncle Sam.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Narcissist

        He's turned into that dirty old uncle who turns up at all the family functions, gets drunk and embarrasses himself.

    3. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge

      Re: Also Microsoft

      The register isn't being complicit. They're just reporting on Trumps actions and letting the reader decide.

      There's not much bias in the article, it neither condones nor encourages.

      If you, dear commentard feel otherwise, then that's on you.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Also Microsoft

        "Chatham House" are being complicit.

        China *has* tackled its Covid 19 problem, it is not some sort of coordinated state propaganda as Chatham are claiming.

      2. Pascal Monett Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Damn right.

        Reporting on a murder doesn't make you an accomplice.

      3. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Also Microsoft

        "There's not much bias in the article, it neither condones nor encourages."

        Agreed. In My Bombastic Opinion most El Reg articles have little or no bias. Some do, and they get appropriate comments (often from me).

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Also Microsoft

      That is true. I have worked in a number of "hard embargo" countries over the years (Iran, Libya, …) where you were strictly not allowed to have any US imports.

      Windows (+ office, etc.) was the one thing you could be sure will be there.

      Apparently, they just lobby to get themselves in some kind of humanitarian exception list or some such. I do not know the details.

      1. StargateSg7 Bronze badge

        Re: Also Microsoft

        ONe could always buy OUR 128-bits wide combined CPU/GPU/DSP chips and software!

        It's FULLY ITAR-free where NOTHING but Canadian personnel and Canadian designed, built, operated and manufactured software AND hardware down to the substrates and packaging themselves, even the assemblers, compilers, motherboards, RAM, BIOS, and even the capacitors/resistors and chip etchers and QA hardware themselves --- EVERYTHING! --- is FULLY Canadian-designed/built/sourced/made here!

        Even the gold on the chip contact pins and the screws, nuts and bolts on the mobos is from a local fully Canadian-owned company!

        Like I said ANYONE could buy from us instead and THERE IS NOT A DAMN THING THE USA could do about it !!!!

        V

        1. StargateSg7 Bronze badge

          Re: Also Microsoft

          I should note however, we do this FULLY CANADIAN THING more because we're anal retentive and like to have and do EVERYTHING in-house only rather than being explicitly anti-USA !!!

          It's just an internal preference so no-one can ever point a finger to ANYWHERE ELSE except us as to whether or not something is ours! If we need to revise, re-design and/or rebuild we are beholden TO NO-ONE ELSE !!! It's then ONLY OUR FULLY ITAR-free All-Canadian software and All-Canadian hardware components and sub-components that we are responsible for!

          v

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Also Microsoft

      There is also another reason. Trump stokes hate towards China then tells the American people China want him out of office. I hear there's an election round the corner.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Also Microsoft

        I suspect he may be right in that - Trump is harming the US as well as China, and given just how much US debt is in Chinese hands they are most likely preparing to stop Russia from hacking the elections once again. Until they have disposed of the US debt they hold (which I see happening as soon as the dollar and economy recover some value and all the theft has been clawed back), they will not be fans of Trump and I suspect you may see the yuan float before the elections to make the point - their beta test dropped the DOW over 500 points in a single day so they know it works.

        Trump, on the other hand, just does what he always does with creditors - he blames THEM for the debts. After all, he sued Deutsche Bank for having the temerity of asking their money back at the end of their loan, so it's not a new idea for him either.

        I really do not see an upside in the presence of Trump. He managed to make even Bush Jr look good, and I must admit I deemed that impossible. I hope for the US' sake that he's gone soon.

        I would look askance at Mr Murphy and ask him to apply his famous law here. It would the global height of irony if he were to be carried out of the place with Covid19..

        1. imanidiot Silver badge

          Re: Also Microsoft

          The Dems might have had a chance if they had put a believable candidate against Trump. The walking senile corpse Biden isn't going to beat Trump because many voters will choose to go with the evil they know.

        2. Paul Crawford Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: Also Microsoft

          Bush Jr? He even makes Richard Nixon look like an honest gentleman.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Also Microsoft

        "There is also another reason. Trump stokes hate towards China then tells the American people China want him out of office. I hear there's an election round the corner."

        Yeah classic way to get voted back in but it requires invasion level of response to get voted in. Such as

        M Thatcher ( falklands ) T Blair (IRAQ) oops

        The fact is like brexit the trump election was a sign of voter desperation after they were manipulated via social media. That many here and in the US are finally realising that they were duped sadly doesn't remove the damage already done. Perhaps the next leaders will get in on a policy of removing the damage their predecessors have done to democracy during their power grab but I wouldn't bet on it.

        MT was never charged with the deaths from the sinking of the Belgrano outside the exclusion zone presumably because a large percentage of the electorate still didn't understand that they really were suckers even after her death. Perhaps Trump will have to invest in the same urine resistant burial that MT employed

        1. PeeKay

          Re: Also Microsoft

          The fact is like brexit the trump election was a sign of voter desperation after they were manipulated via social media.

          Actually, I believe it was the LACK of democratic process when the Maastricht Treaty was signed that drove Brexit. Once the British public got their chance to vote on that issue, we did - with the expected result.

          I note that the EU project is doing awfully well at the moment too...

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Also Microsoft

            The average brexiter hasn’t got a clue what Maastricht was about and is more concerned about the other languages spoken in his local B&M Bargains,

            1. not.known@this.address Silver badge

              Re: Also Microsoft

              Werdsmith said "The average brexiter hasn’t got a clue what Maastricht was about and is more concerned about the other languages spoken in his local B&M Bargains,"

              Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what Maastricht was really about then, werdsmith? And where you get the idea most Leave voters are racists - that is what you are alluding at with your comment about "other languages", right? Although I suspect Twitter or Facebook might be better platforms for that sort of one-sided "discussion" (bordering on propaganda)...

        2. John H Woods Silver badge

          Re: Also Microsoft

          Not a fan of Mrs T., especially not her damaging lingering untruth that a national budget is just like a household budget, but fun fact: the UK actually acquitted themselves pretty well in the Falklands, both operationally and morally. There was a bit of controversy about the Belgrano but, in 2003, Captain Hector Bonzo, in a Nat Geo documentary, claimed that he was readying for attack, and that the sinking of his ship was entirely concordant with the "rules of war"

        3. Sintares
          FAIL

          Re: Also Microsoft

          Why would she be charged?

          Argentinian warship - check

          At war - check

          SINK IT !!!

          Adm Pico even said in the 90's the ship was on an operation to threaten the task force, was delaying for tactical reasons and was thus a valid target.

          And the Argies got a message passed via the Swiss embassy on April the 23rd pointing out that enemy forces may be attacked outside the zone at the discretion of the British forces, so don't have the idea that anything outside the zone could sail or fly freely.

          Quite frankly the British forces could legally have waited for it to return to port, wait for the captain to invite a group of nuns and school children to visit for a party and then blown the fuck out of it.

          The Argies had no right to the islands and frankly we took the hard option in dealing with it, the easy option being giving them a 72hr countdown and a list of cities that would become the worlds newest radioactive craters if the forces didn't withdraw.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Also Microsoft

            I take it then you are unaware that MT intentionally created the whole affair ignoring the US intelligence notifications of Argentine increased intent and removing the usual military presence including the usual nuclear submarine deterrent so as to encourage their attack?

            Effectively MT invited the Argentine attack IMHO hoping to publicly stomp on a third world country using first world tech so as to get voted in again and to promote the UK's new firework grade armoured ships (HMS Sheffield). That the cost of human lives on both sides so as to protect a few thousand sheep and shepherds from Argentine aggression was always the sickest joke.

            That even today the likes of Sintares revel in the idea that "we showed them what for" instead of understanding that the whole thing was a manipulation. Perhaps Sintares will volunteer himself or his kin for the next Tory vote raiser before rejoicing in the pointless deaths of anonymous others.

      3. Doug_S

        Re: Also Microsoft

        Yes Trump is planning to run against China in the upcoming election, blaming them for the pandemic (and claim it isn't his fault regardless of where things stand here in November) and claiming Biden is too close with them. Plus adding in his ridiculous "Obamagate" stuff so he can claim Biden should be "locked up" like Hillary.

        He thinks running the same playbook from 2016 is going to work in the middle of a pandemic he badly mishandled - even lately going back to claiming will "go away on its own" hoping to somehow convince people to stop thinking about it.

    6. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Also Microsoft

      Microsoft already got a dispensation from the SoC to allow them to resume sales.

  2. aberglas

    China will become self sufficient in tech

    It is already one of their priorities.

    Then generally they will diverge, and there will be less interplay and communication between east and west.

    Is that a good thing? Hard to say.

    Xi Jinping is certainly potentially dangerous, but isolating him also isolates the Chinese people from western liberal thought.

    What is frightening is that the Trump administration is quite incapable of thinking these sort of strategic issues through.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Huada Empyrean Software

      Reading up on it. They seem to have their home grown EDA software. Huada Empyrean Software. They'll presumably focus on that now.

      https://www.design-reuse.com/sip/supplier/1265/huada-empyrean-software-co/

      You can imagine the Chinese will require chip designs to be delivered using the Chinese software to avoid any sanctions. I can also imagine companies not wanting to use *two* different software tools and ending up just using the Chinese tools. Even for USA chips, because it has no penalty associated with it.

      It's a little surreal. 80% of US GDP is services (I assume this software comes under that):

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition

      1. Trollslayer Silver badge

        Re: Huada Empyrean Software

        China is good at iterations in technology so they can see Trump out.

      2. Louis Schreurs Bronze badge

        Re: Huada Empyrean Software

        It IS surreal.

        The emperor walks without clothes and world&dog cheer his new Armani.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. ExpatZ

        Re: China will become self sufficient in tech

        Not nearly as much of that as there is international election manipulation, illegal warfare, banned weapons use, the several million dead from both of those as well as the velvet glove style Police State that is the US these days.

        Not to mentio that the US has installed and/or directly supports 73% of the worlds dictatorships.

        No one in the US has any standing to point at ANY other nation at this point about pretty much anything.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: China will become self sufficient in tech

      "What is frightening is that the Trump administration is quite incapable of thinking these sort of strategic issues through."

      Few countries can see past their next election. The USA just seems to be better at that than most. MAGA!! WE'RE No. 1!!!

  3. Grikath

    I can see this going well....

    "Essentially, chips manufactured overseas using US software or hardware cannot be shipped to Huawei or any of its subsidiaries without Uncle Sam's permission. That means that even if the semiconductors were commissioned or designed by Huawei and manufactured by foundries outside of the States, the chips will still be subject to export limits if the manufacturing processes use any US equipment or design tools. "

    Between the mess that is the USPTO when it comes to patents and its relation (ahem) to other patenting agencies elsewhere in the world, corporate cross-licensing, and corporate presence demands, what exactly is "US software or hardware" ? Or is "the US" trying to Claim it All if there's even a shred of "US technology" in a production/supply line? That'll go down well...

    And with the way this is stated, well after the fact as well.. This would apply to machines/production lines that may well have been built/ordered years ago...

    I can see this one turning to Interesting Times if they're really going to put their foot down on this. And not for Huawei or ZTE.

    1. Louis Schreurs Bronze badge

      Re: I can see this going well....

      Uncle $am wants to have his cake, eat it and simultaneously wanting to have the recipe/ingredients stored in the cupboard and fridge.

    2. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge

      Re: I can see this going well....

      The smart thing would be for UK to "support" this. When US corporations (esp. Silicon Valley) wake up to the fact that everyone is considering their tech a liability rather than asset, lure them to this side of the pond with more liberal regulation, and let US slide to Amish level of tech.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        We already try to avoid US tech

        We are primarily a services company but for the last year we've been working on a hardware product. We try to avoid US technology as much as possible precisely for this kind of uncertainty.

        It turns out to be just as difficult as if you wanted to avoid Chinese tech.

        However, I am confident that things move in the way we'd like them to. Hopefully this will end up being like when they introduced those draconian anti-money laundering laws some years back, and non-US banks stopped doing business with Americans.

  4. sanmigueelbeer Silver badge

    Globalization: Who's fault is that?

    When the US spearheaded globalization they handed the "keys", lock-stock-and-barrels, to China. Because the US no longer manufactures, the schools, colleges and universities stopped churning out graduates that once provided the backbone and lifeblood to the US manufacturing "might".

    The late Steve Jobs summed it all when he had dinner with then US President Obama (original article HERE or HERE):

    He called America's lackluster education system an obstacle for Apple, which needed 30,000 industrial engineers to support its on-site factory workers."

    "You can't find that many in America to hire," Jobs told the president. "If you could educate these engineers, we could move more manufacturing plants here."

    And we all know how much the current and previous "get along".

    The US sold the "goose that lay the golden egg" and now it wants it back.

    Like with Apple's announcement (opening a manufacturing plant in Texas), I'll wait for the TSMC factory to produce chips (in commercial quantity) before believing.

    One last bit, remember this article: A tale of Apple, the iPhone, and overseas manufacturing? China has set a very high "standard" of expectation that no American manufacturing can match: When Apple revamped the design of the iPhone's screen at the last minute, a foreman (one person!) woke up 8000 workers in the middle of the night with nothing but a fookin' biscuit and a cup of tea. Overtime? Nadda. How about a biscuit (only one) and a cup of tea instead? Try doing that sort of stunt in the US and the mighty labor union will be all over you like an itch in places you can't scratch.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

      "Try doing that sort of stunt in the US and the mighty labor union will be all over you like an itch in places you can't scratch"

      Yeah, bloody West and its bullshit health and safety and labour laws. Sooner we get rid of them the better. Why should the workers sleep when I need a new phone.

      1. John Savard Silver badge

        Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

        There you are then. End unfair competition; only countries with labor laws, health and safety standards, and wages comparable to those in the United States should be allowed to export to the United States. So Americans could buy made-in-Switzerland cellphones, or made-in-France cellphones, but not made-in-China cellphones.

        1. Louis Schreurs Bronze badge

          Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

          When/if you get this reasoning to Trump’s brain (?) he’ll enforce the policy.

        2. GrumpenKraut Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

          > made-in-France cellphones

          Now that's too harsh!

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

          > only countries with labor laws, health and safety standards, and wages comparable to those in the United States should be allowed to export to the United States.

          That's a pretty low bar, mate.

        4. jospanner Bronze badge

          Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

          Welcome to one of the main contradictions of capitalism.

          There is no place in this economic model for healthy workers.

        5. hoola Bronze badge

          Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

          The underlying cause is a combination of corporations trying to create ever greater margins and consumers demanding everything at the lowest possible price. To achieve this the corporations moved manufacturing to China where it can be done cheaper because:

          Low wages

          Motivated, skilled workforce

          Poor H&S

          No unions

          Poor environmental controls

          The host country thinks long-term

          The corporations can then maintain or increase profit whilst reducing prices creating the viscous circle we are now in.

          Currently it is not possible to repatriate manufacturing back to the West because:

          There are not the skilled people to do the work

          The is very little expertise in manufacturing at the scale required

          Wages are higher

          Good H&S

          Better environmental controls

          These all result in dramatically increased costs that the consumer is not prepared (or cannot) to pay for.

          There is only so much you can do but everyone has a part in the current situation where so much is made in China.

    2. chivo243 Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: Globalization: Time to rethink education?

      I have degrees, just not in my current field of employment. That was 20g spent back in the 80's for diplomas that do me Zero good at this point. I now consider the whole university concept to be horse and buggy thinking. Most jobs I've had I was "trained" once I got there, and my course in Mid 20th century military conflicts wasn't applicable. Nor was my course in creative writing...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Globalization: Time to rethink education?

        If I compare my own education, my dad's and that of the current generation, I think there's been a definite change of focus correlated with economic development.

        Back in the day it was more about providing an education and it gradually moved to providing diplomas, certificates and whatnot.

        There are some unis that still provide a good education, some of them famous and some pretty obscure, many others are just diploma factories.

      2. Stork Silver badge

        Re: Globalization: Time to rethink education?

        I did chemical engineering and that has been useful, both in it and hospitality. Breaking problems into smaller bits still apply. Understanding what the builders are up to.

        And perhaps the biggest: asking " what is the worst that can happen?" And "how do we handle that?"

      3. onemark03

        Re: Globalization: Time to rethink education?

        @ chivo243

        Yes, but did anybody force you to take these subjects? No, thought not.

        Whatever you're doing now, I venture to suggest that you are a far more rounded person for this knowledge than someone without it.

        1. chivo243 Silver badge

          Re: Globalization: Time to rethink education?

          @onemark03

          It was a filler course(s). I had to have full time credits to keep financial aide, there were no classes available for my major at the time I registered for classes, everything was already closed. Lessor of two evils and all that stuff...

    3. Toe Knee

      Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

      Aah, yes, “the mighty labor union”... that’s something of an archaic thought here in the “Right to Work” (what wonderful right wing doublespeak that is) states.

      I don’t think that will be a problem for the vast majority of American manufacturing concerns.

    4. onemark03

      Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

      @ sanmiguelbeer

      1. America's (school) education system is not going to improve any time soon. It is controlled at local level (big mistake) which sees no point in teaching of "overly academic" subjects – after the motto "You don't need to know about Shakespeare or history or geography to be able to work in a warehouse, flip hamburgers or even write software". Or something like that.

      2. As someone else said in these comments, manufacturing is going to become increasingly automated in the future, which means that the workforce will not require many well-educated people anyway.

    5. Sanguma Bronze badge

      Re: Globalization: Who's fault is that?

      Try doing that sort of stunt in the US and the mighty labor union will be all over you like an itch in places you can't scratch.

      Actually it's more probably the relative cost of living in the bigly advanced West versus a relative new-comer like China. If such-and-such a place has cheap and reasonably functional apartment buildings for hundreds of thousands of workers, and food isn't overly expensive, and it also has a lot of work, it will get the work and the workers. Compare that with the overall level of entitlement in the West, where even slum landlords like The Donald Itself expect to live like kings ...

      After five or so decades of union-busting morons in public office, and the price of living going up like a 4th July Fireworks Extravaganza, the West has got the industrial relations it wanted, and deserved, and the industrial developments it deserves: none worth commenting on.

  5. John Savard Silver badge

    Responsible Corporate Citizen?

    If Huawei were a responsible global corporate citizen, it wouldn't have got itself into this trouble by exporting American tech to Iran.

    But that Huawei is turning to make phones using Chinese technology since American technology is no longer available to it... what else can they do? Roll over and die?

    One possibility of what may be expected of them is that they might pay a huge fine and then become subject to U.S. oversight to prove they will never do this again, but presumably this isn't really an option for a number of reasons - not just because the Chinese government wouldn't let them, but because the United States is no longer prepared to give them a second chance.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Its' about 5G

      UK is rolling out Huawei 5G, Canada is rolling out Huawei 5G, Europe is rolling out Huawei 5G, Asia is rolling out Huawei 5G....

      US wanted that for Cisco, Qualcomm, its own companies.

      They did a China trade war, picked Huawei as the poster child. Hurt that company, deny it US tech, it will fail, they thought. "look at the harm we can do to your company China so let us have our way or else". China will cut a favorable trade deal they thought.

      But Huawei, simply replaced the few bits and piece with non-US kit and moved on.

      And the tarrifs just made Chinese goods more expensive. Consumers had to pay the tariffs not China. The retaliation cost them their exports to China.

      USA have assembled a hotpotch of little claims here, dating back to 2003 and 2010, as if a RAID in 2010 is hitech gear, or a court case from 2003 that was already settled can be resurrected.

      They arrest the daughter of the founder as a way to gain leverage. Turn up the heat. "Give us our trade deal China, or we'll hurt your people!"

      Mnuchin tries to lobby the UK, at least they thought the loyal puppy UK would dump Huawei 5G. But no UK doesn't want to piss off China. Suddenly the reality is hitting them. Everyone is totally prepared to dump USA Kit for Chinese kit. Not just in 5G. They can see the shift in the world trade axis.

      I guess they cracked open Huawei's kit, looked for a chip designer they could attack as a mean of attacking Huawei. That chip designer license US software to design those chips, attack that chip maker, and thus undermine Huawei and get the 5G market!

      But now nobody can use that US software for fear of some arbitrary capricious attack used to leverage a desperately needed trade deal.

      Mnuchin knows how thin the skin of the US bubble is. If the trade axis shifts from US-EU vs China to US vs EU-China...

      Pop.

      1. Klimt's Beast Would

        Re: Its' about 5G

        But no UK doesn't want to piss off China.

        There's a major revolt in the tory back benches against the government about it. Who'd have ever thought that such a large majority can also be a curse? What's that Chinese warning, 'may your wish be granted!'?

        https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/mar/09/huawei-government-tries-to-head-off-5g-network-rebellion

        And in the real world, there's things like this:

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8326919/Huawei-seals-5m-deal-Imperial-College-help-build-new-tech-campus-London.html

      2. Xalran

        Re: Its' about 5G

        There's no telecom equipment company left in America... Motorola went back to do mobile phines and chips, Lucent merged with Alcatel before they ended up being gobbled by Nokia. Nortel, was cut in pieces and sold to others.

        Right now the Telecom Equipment world runs on : Ericsson, Nokia ( both being Europeans ), Huawei, ZTE ( both Chinese ) and Samsung ( South Korean )... there's the Japanese too, but they are mostly limited to their own market.

        Cisco cannot compete with any of the above when it comes to telecommunication networks... sure they make great products for the datacenters and even fore outside the datacenters, but they lack the knowledge and the tech.

        Qualcomm is quite happy making chips everybody wants to buy. Telecom network equipment is not their core business... they don't need to go there, since they are already ubiquitous in all the equipments.

    2. Inkey
      FAIL

      Re: Responsible Corporate Citizen?

      You must be very young and or a merkin....

      Cast your browser back to a little before 1995...

      Before China become a power house manufacturer... Japan could land a small car and pay for the rent for the month, for said car for the same price uncle spam could land a crate of apples... like the crane off the ship.

      If you want to see a flourishing economy look to the middle classes... At the time Japan had the highest, longest running and most prosperous middle class.,

      That changed when the US "adjusted the markets" to promote whatever the feck it was called "free trade or some such... Look at the disparity of the wealthiest and lowest earners in the US and check how the middle class has shrunk in. Merika..

      Trump hasn't had a successful business venture since a little after that period in time... The 11 billion he claims is his fortune is more than likely the write off that investment bank loan for the land and building for the stuff in Atlantic City that got a bail out... free market capitalism you say ahh no to big to fail...

      Thing is allowing something to fail allows another thing to be created orders better than before.. Or at least insight into how to do so.... This will only slow China down a little and in the long run be of no real value to the majority of us business

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        He's in debt up to his eyeballs

        He has to borrow $11m to buy that house from his sister, which means he doesn't have the money available otherwise.

        https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/05/trump-2018-financial-disclosure/

        What he says, the number provided for property tax, and the numbers provided to borrows, none of it matches up.

        He lists 'revenue' as 'income' on his disclosure form, as if he's got ~500m 'income', yet has to borrow 11m on a **30** year mortgage to cover the transaction and spread out the repayments!

  6. Warm Braw Silver badge

    I'm not sure what an independent definition of "responsible global corporate citizen" might be, but I suspect it would not include someone picking random fights with a broad spectrum of foreign countries in the hope it might increase his chances of re-election. If you're claiming to be world policeman, it doesn't help if you're simultaneously arbitrary, capricious and corrupt.

  7. Andy Non Silver badge

    Good incentive for China

    to become fully 100% self sufficient. Then they will have no need to buy anything made in America at all either directly or indirectly. They will also be able to compete with American exports worldwide even more strongly. Trump aiming gun at own feet again. I'm happy with my Huawei phone and will continue to buy Chinese tech and products regardless of the orange idiot.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good incentive for China

      I was just going to say the same thing, having watched a number of documentaries on tech in China recently, they seem to have all the skills and the industries to match or exceed the products produced in the US, by painting China into a corner they could ironically make their home industries irrelevant.

      1. vtcodger Silver badge

        Re: Good incentive for China

        I'm told that there are a few things the Chinese still can't make. High performance aircraft engines for example. But they are mostly stuff the US won't sell them anyway. And they can probably get by one way or the other

        If the idea is to cripple Chinese manufacturing, Trump is somewhere between two and four decades too late. If the idea is to somehow bring manufacturing jobs back to the US, he's at least a couple of decades too early. Mostly those jobs aren't coming back until manufacturing costs in overseas countries with decent education systems approach the costs in the US.

        And by the time manufacturing returns to the US, manufacturing will probably be so heavily automated that it doesn't employ all that many folks.

        1. Sanguma Bronze badge

          Re: Good incentive for China

          High performance aircraft engines for example.

          It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they got that sorted out soon. They've been licensing - then pirating - Soviet, now Russian jet engine technology to make their own aircraft, and some of that Russian jet technology is quite awesome - compressors that don't stall in spite of sudden drastic changes in air flow into the intakes (Cobra, Sukhoi 27) ... give them time ...

    2. Louis Schreurs Bronze badge

      Re: Good incentive for China

      Regarding Trump I am actively shunning all U$ stuff out of my life. This process will continue after November this year and way longer than 4 years after that month.

      1. Sanguma Bronze badge
        Coat

        Re: Good incentive for China

        You'll make the Prime Prizewinning Exhibit of the Numpty Breeders Association, Donald Trump, cry!

  8. Trollslayer Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Today in Washington

    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-unveils-space-force-flag-014241868.html

    Apparently the US has "super duper missiles".

    1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: Today in Washington

      Straight out of spaceballs....

    2. Sanguma Bronze badge

      Re: Today in Washington

      Why not? They have the War Room, or so the Third Ronnie thought before he actually got to the White House and discovered that it didn't in fact exist ...

  9. _LC_ Silver badge
    Stop

    And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

    Iraq, Libya, Syria's “gas attacks”, “Russia-gate” and Assange...

    In a tyranny the allegation is sufficient for the sentencing.

    1. DavCrav Silver badge

      Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

      "And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!"

      With regards Syrian "gas attacks", they were gas attacks. There is copious evidence, from eyewitness reports, soil samples, human tissue samples, piles of dead bodies, etc., that it happened, and that Assad was responsible. Don't lump that in with the 'dodgy dossier'.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

        To be fair, he's saying that they made policy decisions based on allegations, not that those were all subsequently disproved.

        However, we can leave out the Syrian issue and replace it with Bolivian electoral fraud (alleged, then disproved) or Venezuelan invasions (denied, then proved). Mind, the US are not alone in those affairs.

        1. DavCrav Silver badge

          Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

          "To be fair, he's saying that they made policy decisions based on allegations, not that those were all subsequently disproved."

          I believe you might be attributing much more reasonableness and nuance in the argument than is due.

      2. Chris G Silver badge

        Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

        https://www.tulsi2020.com/issues/reports-chemical-attacks-syria

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

        Syrian gas attacks were faked, according to the guy in charge of the investigation:

        https://thegrayzone.com/2020/01/22/ian-henderson-opcw-whistleblower-un-no-chemical-attack-douma-syria/

        "He told a UN Security Council session convened on January 20 by Russia’s delegation that OPCW management had rejected his group’s scientific research, dismissed the team, and produced another report that totally contradicted their initial findings.

        “We had serious misgivings that a chemical attack had occurred,” Henderson said, referring to the FFM team in Douma."

        1. DavCrav Silver badge

          Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

          Here's Bellingcat talking about your guy Henderson. Summary:

          1) Henderson wasn't on the FFM team.

          2) Everybody on the FFM team disagrees with him.

          3) He's wrong on facts.

          1. _LC_ Silver badge
            Thumb Down

            Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

            *lol* - he lead the team.

            Bellingcat = they simply turn everything upside-down.

            1. DavCrav Silver badge

              Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

              "he lead the team."

              The FFM team seem to disagree.

            2. DavCrav Silver badge

              Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

              Citation for you not being correct: this Reuters article, which says that he helped the FFM collect samples. Sounds like a bit player at best, and not part of the FFM team at all.

              Unless we can add Reuters to your list of people who are getting basic facts wrong. As opposed to The Gray Zone, your references, founded by Max Blumenthal, who (acording to Wikipedia) regularly contributes to RT and Sputnik.

              Not that the Russian government has any interest in fake news regarding Assad's chemical weapons, and certainly Russia has never been noted for planting such fake news around the place.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

                I like Reuters, but they can be wrong too, especially as the article you link to was written BEFORE the documents were exposed.

                Also: "Bellingcat is funded by the US government’s regime-change arm, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), and is part of an initiative bankrolled by the British Foreign Office."

                Here you go, just one of the leaked emails: https://wikileaks.org/opcw-douma/document/May-20-2019-email_raising_concerns/May-20-2019-email_raising_concerns.pdf

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

            It's a shame you didn't read the article I linked to, that shows the links to the leaked OPCW documents, amongst other things.

            Also: " Bellingcat is funded by the US government’s regime-change arm, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), and is part of an initiative bankrolled by the British Foreign Office."

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

        Swimming pools and water treatment plants, as well as hospitals, contain supplies of chlorine dioxide or chlorine gas used for disinfection.

        Unless the possibility was seriously entertained and rejected after tests, a conventional bomb could have ruptured tanks and caused all the effects of a gas attack.

        During the US attack on Okinawa,many civilians sheltering in caves were killed by what appeared to be gas attacks but were actually the by-products of US conventional explosives (The Battle of Okinawa by Feifer.)

        In wartime the first casualty is the truth, and I would be more likely to believe the gas attack narrative were the US not so anxious to promote it.

        1. DavCrav Silver badge

          Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

          "Swimming pools and water treatment plants, as well as hospitals, contain supplies of chlorine dioxide or chlorine gas used for disinfection."

          This is true. How did a chlorine gas canister get halfway up a building though, if it started off in a swimming pool?

          And, I don't know about Syria, but everywhere I know uses sodium hypochlorite in swimmijng pools, because, you know, chlorine gas is nasty.

      5. _LC_ Silver badge
        Alert

        Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

        Inform yourself:

        https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/douma-syria-opcw-chemical-weapons-chlorine-gas-video-conspiracy-theory-russia-a8927116.html

        Some "attacks" never took place, i.e. they were staged completely. In others the “friendly opposition” (ISIS and Al-Qaeda affiliates) used chlorine gas, while pretending that the government hat attacked the population with Sarin nerve gas, though.

        1. robidy Silver badge

          Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

          Selective quoting, kinda undermines you whole point.

      6. ExpatZ

        Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

        Nope, the evidence is the OPCW fabricated a report that the US asked for ot say what the US wanted and not what really happened.

        Do keep up.

        1. DavCrav Silver badge

          Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

          What evidence? Some guy at OCPW who disagrees with everyone else there, and who the Russian government invited to speak?

          You're going to need more than 'everybody knows that's a lie' stuff. All major international organizations, all major NGOs, everyone with any kind of reputation, and not tied to Syria or Russia, believes Assad used chemical weapons in Syria.

    2. Sanguma Bronze badge
      Coat

      Re: And it's all based on ALLEGATIONS!

      To be fair, they've got Alligators and they're breeding in the sewers and the swamps of Washington - got to make use of them somehow! :)

  10. osakajin Bronze badge

    Wjy dont trump and xi just get a room already?

  11. jason_derp Bronze badge

    Not allowd to sell to Huawei?

    Sure. It's definitely possible that a capitalistic semi-conductor manufacturer will definitely not find a way to just sell them anyways. Don't let that shoulder get too red from all the slapping America.

  12. IGotOut Silver badge

    And China stops exporting Rare Earth materials.

    And chip production grinds to an almost complete halt around the world.

  13. low_resolution_foxxes Bronze badge

    For balance, the Chinese have some pretty daft laws of their own.

    Ever wonder why there's so many Chinese billionaires? It's cause in China you need a local Chinese 50-50 partner. Only exception is Tesla so far.

    US tech faces some serious obstacles over there. Facebook is essentially banned, WhatsApp, Instagram, the great firewall blocks half of Google, patents don't mean shit, WeChat is replacing banks. So to be honest, it is pretty damn painful running a business in China. We had to run ours as a UK trade associated business and get a local distribution partner. I hear hilariously terrible stories about Chinese business shenanigans all the time (getting credit and going into admin then cropping up elsewhere is rife).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > in China you need a local Chinese 50-50 partner.

      That's more the rule than the exception around the world.

    2. Missing Semicolon
      Stop

      Goose and gander

      It's odd, in all the "China isn't all that bad, look at the USA!" shouting, that the information about this kind of blatantly one-sided trade arrangements in China isn't more widely known.

      Whilst we happily buy stuff that arrives in vast container-loads straight from Shenzen, the fact that trade the other way is severely hampered and restricted seems not to be thought of.

      If we bought from China with the same arrangements that we sold to China, things would be a lot fairer.

  14. Garymrrsn

    No Where to Run...

    Typical Trump strategy; Create a distraction to hide his latest screw-up by creating another screw-up for which he will have to create a bigger distraction/screw-up.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Paranoia at its worst

    Bloody Trump's trying everything to bring down Huawei. What is the matter with that bloke? Paranoia isn't even a strong enough description. A complete nutcase.

  16. Yes Me Silver badge
    WTF?

    What is Mr Ross's job again?

    "... Huawei and its foreign affiliates have stepped-up efforts to undermine these national security-based restrictions through an indigenization effort,” said US Security of Commerce Wilbur Ross.
    Ignoring the wonderful typo, there you have it, right there. If this was actually anything to do with national security, it wouldn't be the Secretary of Commerce, it would be a security-related member of the Administration saying it. So I'd rather say:
    The USA has stepped up its trade war and its violations of international trade rules by applying bogus "security-based restrictions" to Huawei and its foreign affiliates.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can't the Chinese just bribe Mr Trump to change his mind, or does he have an exclusive contract with the Russian Mafia?

  18. big_D Silver badge

    Security of Commerce...

    US Security of Commerce Wilbur Ross. “This is not how a responsible global corporate citizen behaves, when an irresponsible Megalomanic misbehaves.

    TFTFY.

  19. Sanguma Bronze badge

    Entitlement

    That's what you call it when an empire's on its last legs. I'm sure we can find plenty of other examples ... Suez Crisis, anybody?

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