back to article Beer gut-ted: As many as '70 million pints' spoiled during coronavirus pandemic must be destroyed in Britain

Setting aside the serious consequences of the COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic – loss of life, economic hardship, rising authoritarianism, and blissfully clear roads – there is a lesser but still troubling development. On Friday, the British Beer & Pub Association (BBPA) let it be known that as many as 70 million pints of British …

  1. jake Silver badge

    "32.6 per cent of people drink alcohol while working from home."

    And the bulk of the other 67.4% are liars.

  2. John Young 1

    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    As per the title ;)

  3. Tom 7 Silver badge

    K'in eejets.

    Just distil the lot into hand cleaner or tax free gin as I like to call it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: K'in eejets.

      I don't think most beers brewed for consumption are strong enough to practically distill (I believe you want to start around the 10% by volume range). Plus, some of the nastiness may have a lower boiling point than alcohol, meaning it would pass distillation and foul the result. Most distilled drinks don't come from products already meant to be drunk but rather were a way to make use of otherwise-subpar brews/wines.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Trollface

        Re: K'in eejets.

        >>>Most distilled drinks don't come from products already meant to be drunk but rather were a way to make use of otherwise-subpar brews/wines.

        Agreed. Calvados is a good example. Cider is swill.

        Wash for whisky is in the 5-10% range. It is a lot like beer. At least in the fermentation process.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: K'in eejets.

          And most beer I'm familiar with is less than that. 5% is on the strong side for a beer (most I know are in the 2-3% range), stronger and you're going into malt liquor territory where it's less drunk for taste than to just get drunk.

          1. theOtherJT

            Re: K'in eejets.

            I don't think "Malt Liquor" is a thing in the UK. Most beer here starts at about 4% and then heads upwards. Only specialist "low alcohol" stuff is less than 3. I can't remember the time I saw a beer that was less than 4% on a beer tap, and with the surge in popularity of craft brews there's an awful lot of 5.5 and 6% stuff about these days.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: K'in eejets.

              Micro breweries have definitely helped push the trend for stronger beer. In the US you're hard pressed to find any under the 6% mark. Many are ~8%.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: K'in eejets.

                Is that beer as in beer or is it "beer" as in lager, aka near frozen gnats urine?

            2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: K'in eejets.

              I can't remember the time I saw a beer that was less than 4% on a beer tap,

              Several good British cask ales come in around 3.9%. I prefer it, once you get over 5.5% or so it starts to get syrupy and headache-inducing, like some American IPAs.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: K'in eejets.

                " once you get over 5.5% or so it starts to get syrupy and headache-inducing"

                Nonsense. Syrupy and headache inducing are both signs of incomplete fermentation.

                "like some American IPAs"

                And many British "real ales". It's hardly confined to the portion of the North American continent south of the 49th parallel.

            3. jake Silver badge

              Re: K'in eejets.

              Here in the US, even the lowly Budweiser comes in at 5% ... I'll bet that cozy little fact has surprised a lot of people who thought they knew otherwise.

              1. Blank Reg

                Re: K'in eejets.

                That's true, but I rarely see anyone drinking regular Budweiser, usually it's Bud Light. Which should not be much of a surprise as the best selling beers in the USA are Bud Light and Coors Light.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: K'in eejets.

                  "Light" beers aren't called that because they are low in alcohol, they're lighter in structure. A bit like the way imports like Stella Artois made much of their "premium" tag to market themselves as "high quality", when "premium" does just refer to the alcohol content, and the beer can be quite ordinary.

                  1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

                    Re: K'in eejets.

                    I know right?

                    huge marketing blunder , a lot of people avoid "lite" beer for fear of not getting enough alcohol

                    No one seems to realise its about the calories

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: K'in eejets.

                Budweiser is not beer. It is reformed flushing water.

          2. Stoneshop Silver badge
            Holmes

            Re: K'in eejets.

            5% is on the strong side for a beer (most I know are in the 2-3% range),

            It's clear where you live.

            Commiserations.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: K'in eejets.

              "It's clear where you live."

              And where would that be? It's not clear to me at all.

              1. el_oscuro

                Re: K'in eejets.

                Over on this side of the pond, most standard beers come in at 5%, while the light ones are usually about 4%. German standard bier like Pils and Export usually have about 4.8-4.9%. Bocks and such have more.

                I have never heard of a 2% beer.

                1. Joe W Silver badge

                  Re: K'in eejets.

                  There's some brilliant light beer in Scandinavian countries (lettøl), low taxes, low percentage, good taste. I drink for the taste, not the alcohol induced effects - mostly...

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: K'in eejets.

                  >>I have never heard of a 2% beer.

                  Top Deck ?

                  https://youtu.be/4CTFjkFuu3w

                3. KBeee

                  Re: K'in eejets.

                  It used to be that a drink with up to 2% alcohol could be sold as "non alcoholic". I remember as a kid being able to buy Shandy from a sweetshop with nearly 2% alcohol, There was an uproar when it was pointed out that if Watneys Red Barrel got any weaker (I'm guessing to lower Wantneys tax bill) it could be sold to children in sweetshops. Watneys ditched Red Barrel, upped the alcohol and re-branded it as Watneys Red.

          3. Blank Reg

            Re: K'in eejets.

            Anything less than 5% is light beer to me. My favorite craft beers come in at 7-9%

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: K'in eejets.

              Didn't realise Tenants Super, Super Skol, Carlsberg special brew and other colloquially referenced "tramps juice" were classed as craft beers......

          4. hmv Silver badge

            Re: K'in eejets.

            Yeah! We used to drink beer like that - it was called 'small beer' and used as a substitute for water when water wasn't so safe. Now that we have reasonable water supplies, it's no longer popular.

          5. joeldillon

            Re: K'in eejets.

            Which country on earth do you live in where 2% beer is standard, Saudi Arabia? Even in America, notorious land of 'piss close to water', even Bud Lite is 4.2% abv.

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: K'in eejets.

          "Cider is swill."

          Cider is just as good as the apples that go into it. Here in the computer world we have a fitting acronym: GIGO

          1. Joe W Silver badge

            Re: K'in eejets.

            Main problem with cider outside Hesse state is that people don't fully ferment it. The sweet, nasty, icky stuff that people sell as cider elsewhere is.... ugly.

            OK, there's other dry ciders in the world as well, and I do like those.

        3. Jan 0

          Re: K'in eejets.

          Agreed. Wash for whisky is essentially unhopped beer.

          Similarly ,although you can't make a drinkable fermented product from potatoes, they make wonderful chips* and the best vodka!

          That's the fried potato stakes that you dip hot into <insert favourite>. Garlic mayo for me.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: K'in eejets.

          Cider is swill, you say?

          Sod off yank.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: K'in eejets.

            Maybe swill is too harsh.

            More like a teenager's gateway drink to proper alcoholic beverages then?

        5. hmv Silver badge

          Re: K'in eejets.

          "Cider is swill."

          With 40L of cider on top in the kitchen I can't be said to be an impartial observer.

          But, no. You just haven't found the good stuff.

          1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

            Re: K'in eejets.

            I have had several bad experiences with cider over the years (awful taste, more gas than lager, atrocious hangovers or being sick after small amounts*) that I don't even contemplate it these days. I don't know anyone who drinks it either, so I have no one to educate me, so cider stays off my list of drinks.

            *compared to beer sessions.

  4. jake Silver badge
    Pint

    It's probably not actually "bad".

    Chances are good that it's still quite drinkable, but the flavo(u)r doesn't age all that well[0]. There certainly shouldn't be any health issues ... part of the reason humans started fermenting plant sugars in the first place was to preserve them.

    They should re-label it to reflect this and sell it at a small markup over cost ... I'll bet you a dollar that pints of John Smith's or the Broon that are several months past their sell by date, but labeled as such and priced at, say, 50% of a newer pint, would absolutely fly off the shelves.

    Your Government could do it's part by changing applicable laws to allow it, and waiving taxes on the older beer, thus helping to stimulate the economy. Talk about patriotic! Drink old ale for England!

    [0] This can be fixed with a simple recipe change. Barleywines (for example) can often be aged for years, or even decades. Many variations get much better with age. I started putting away several cases of Anchor Brewing's Old Foghorn every year back in '92. The Wife and I split a bottle once in a while, the old ones are absolutely fantastic.

    1. gotes

      Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

      There is an off-licence near me that sells mostly out of date beer, occasionally several years past "best before". It's fine, usually.

      Though I expect the stuff in cans and bottles keeps a lot better than in a keg.

      1. BenDwire Bronze badge
        Pint

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        There is an off-licence near me that sells mostly out of date beer

        There is a pub near me that sells nearly out of date beer. It's called 'Spoons

      2. j.bourne

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        A keg is only a big Can (a pressurised vessel with sterile dead beer in it). Perhaps you meant Cask? The only thing that could happen to a keg beer is that the keg can taint the beer - the breweries responsible for failing to properly sanitize their kegs will know who they are. Of course a properly stored cask that hasn't been broached will also keep for a good long time - and even improve the beer further.

    2. Julz Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

      Beer keeps for a very long time as long as its sealed. It does age. Which in wine is considered a good thing, in beer, not so much. That's a fashion thing. The USA,ians seem to have developed an obsession about freshness with beer. Slapping born on dates as well as the more usual use by dates and other marketing gimmicks on their beverage containers. I can't help thinking this has more to do with trying to conjurer up a analog of built in obsolesces than any reasons that might improve the lot of their customers.

      Anyway, I'm rambling. Mines the one with bottles of homebrew in the pockets...

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        It doesn't age well if it's kept in glass, as beer will react to light and start to "skunk." Dark glass slows the process but doesn't fully block it. Plus it depends on the beer, as ale doesn't have to be kept as cold as lager.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

          It's not light in general, it's UV that's causes changes in bottled beers. So the trend for clear glass for "lighter" beers, popular with the wimmin for the same reason that "light" cigarettes are, for taking to picnics is ironic. Then again most of those "light" beers are pretty tasteless anyway.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

            The UV causes compounds in hops to break down. One of the breakdown products is known as methyl mercaptan ... which smells exactly like skunk.

            That's why some of the idiots who ship beer in clear glass recommend a wedge of lime stuffed into the neck of the bottle ... it's an attempt to mask the skunk. It's also why beer shipped in green glass often reeks of skunk. Brown glass slows the process down, and cans stop it completely.

            Note that the skunking process is almost instant out in the sunshine ... take a cold glass of perfectly drinkable lager outside and sip it slowly over a couple minutes. You can taste the flavo(u)r change over that short a period of time.

            1. Jan 0
              Coat

              Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

              Ah, now I know why I like dark beers:)

              Mines the one with a bottle of Baltic Trader in the pocket.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

              Skunk

              I always call it dog fart smell. It's especially strong in that Aldi beer (Biere blonde) and heineken

        2. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

          So close the warehouse curtains, and turn the lights off!

        3. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

          right, if lager isn't chilled it spoils and tastes nasty. Back in the day as a teenager I worked in a drug store that would occasionally put Coors on sale in cases, but they got warm in the warehouse and out on the floor. The beer truck driver said it ruins the beer, and he oughta know because the beer was always delivered in refrigerated trucks. Well, people bought it anyway... even though the taste was no longer "ideal" [this was ~40 years ago to put it into perspective].

          but nowadays I usually drink ale since pilsner/lager beers give me a headache...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        Budweiser used gallotannine as a preservative. At some point, they ditched their European supplier for an Asian supplier because cheaper. Turned out the substitute product did not work too well and their swill started to spoil well ahead of time. Rather than go back to the original supplier, they threw the difference at the "born on" marketing campaign to convince the locals that beer is not supposed to last more than a few months. The rest is history...

        (According to a biochemist working for the original supplier)

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

          The woo is strong in this one ...

      3. jake Silver badge

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        Nice of you to paint all 350,000,000 of us with that wide brush of yours, Julz.

        Beers built to be aged is a thing here in the US. It's a little known (and even less understood!) aspect of the fine art of brewing. Fashion? Perhaps. One could say the same of a fine, old Bordeaux or Madeira.

        AB's "born on" date is the date it is packed. The beer is aged at the factory, and is ready to drink when it is bottled. It is built to be consumed as a young, fresh lager. The longer past that date, the older (and less fresh) the beer will taste. So it actually is helpful to the consumer ... especially if any given retailer doesn't properly rotate their stock.

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

          And particularly since American taste for beer tends toward ice-cold lagers that don't have a lot of alcohol. If light beer is preferred there, it's because beer drinkers don't want to get too buzzed too soon: cool off and quench thirst first, then get drunk, and American light beers provide a good balance for the American drinker.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

            >>And particularly since American taste for beer tends toward ice-cold lagers that don't have a lot of alcohol.

            Strange. Because the whole push for "craft" beer and micro breweries is from the US.

            This was something we saw crop up in the late 90s over there, expanded heavily in many states and has now migrated back over to Europe.

            1. Claverhouse Silver badge

              Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

              No doubt it migrated to the States from the British CAMRA start in 1971 [ Campaign for Real Ale --- a few of which people were slightly eccentric ], to restore the old ways.

              Not that the Germans lost the art of brewing, thanks to their fine regulatory laws.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

                >>No doubt it migrated to the States from the British CAMRA start in 1971

                No, the multitude of brewhouses I've been to in the US since the late 90s were never full of chunky-sweatered beer bores. Or Morris dancers.

                1. jake Silver badge

                  Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

                  "brewhouses I've been to in the US since the late 90s were never full of chunky-sweatered beer bores."

                  You've never been to Russian River Brewing when they have Pliny the Younger on tap, then? For an OK beer that is hardly earth-shattering in its ordinariness, it astonishingly draws crowds of the faithful faster than a television preacher on tour.

                  Don't get me wrong, it's a drinkable beer ... if you are into big, hoppy American IPAs. But is it worth spending between 8 and 24 hours in line for? Not in my opinion. In the same amount of time, you can easily visit several other Northern California breweries in the area, each with equally good beer. And few, if any, beer bores.

            2. genghis_uk Bronze badge
              Pint

              Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

              I have been an ale drinker since my teens and was always of the opinion that Americans don't know beer.

              However, my first US trip was to Denver in 1996 and I was amazed at the number of micro breweries doing really nice beers. Since then I have also found great local brews in Minnesota and California but Colorado is still the best place for craft beer in my opinion. Not all 8-10% IPA either, a good range or Reds, Stouts and even some nice Porters. I actually miss my regular trips to Longmont now... ok, I miss the beer... the flight and US immigration you can keep.

          2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

            "cool off and quench thirst first, then get drunk,"

            That sounds sensible...for those in New Orleans, Miami, Dallas and other warm places. Maybe not so much during winter in Boston, Seattle or Portland. Sometimes I think even US residents forget the range and type of climates encompassed by the continental US.

            1. Charles 9 Silver badge

              Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

              Where do you think most of the craft breweries are located? Oop North. And while craft brews are booming right now, they don't hold a candle to the sheer volume of the big boys. And given the options are out there, yet the big boys are still making a killing, they must be doing something right...as in maybe Americans don't want to get so drunk so quickly.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        >>Beer keeps for a very long time as long as its sealed. It does age.

        Unless it is Taiwanese 18 Days beer.

    3. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge

      Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

      I have a stash of beer in the cellar for just such purposes. So far the oldest I've got is 7 years and counting but of the newer purchases is a beer with a best before date of 2049... Also got some biiiggg 750ml barely wines aged in a Spayside whisky cask which isn't going to see the light of day for at least another decade.

      As for some of the other more common beers, shame.. But then John smiths, tetleys and carling always tasted off even when it was in date. Its the smaller guys my heart goes out to (though I've been ordering home delivery beers from local brewers so I've been trying to support the smaller guys).

    4. chivo243 Silver badge

      Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

      Here in NL, the missus is friends with a pub owner, he has given us two batches of beer that is past it's sell by date. He gave us Motörhead Road Crew American Pale Ale? and one called Bastard. They won't be on my shopping list...

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: It's probably not actually "bad".

        The Motörhead one doesn't sound like any American Pale that I've ever sampled/heard of. Doesn't much sound like one I want to sample, either.

        The Bastard ... Would you by any chance mean Arrogant Bastard? I've been aging several cases of each iteration of that since it first hit the market. I like it fresh from the brewery; for such a big beer it is extremely well balanced ... but as it ages, it just gets better.

  5. MiguelC Silver badge
    Pint

    "McClarkin urged the government to provide more support for brewers and pubs in the form of (...) deferment of beer duty"

    But, but, that's just the reason it's going bad -- if only we'd all done our beer duty, there would no beer left!

  6. Chris G Silver badge

    I wonder

    The consequences of putting so much unprocessed beer into the environment, can we expect kaylied cod and pissed prawns around Britains sewerage outlets?

    1. katrinab Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: I wonder

      There are procedures you have to follow to get the tax back on the out of date beer. Presumably the government thought about environmental considerations when writing those rules.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Coffee/keyboard

        Re: I wonder

        Presumably the government thought about environmental considerations when writing those rules.

        You owe me a new keyboard for that!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wonder

      kaylied cod and pissed prawns

      Mmmmmm, beer battered prawns.

      Unfortunately, getting pissed then battered does sound more like a Friday night out in Glasgow than the makings of a culinary delight...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I wonder

      Possibly? I've seen that just from the hormones in our urine we have an effect on fish development, though thankfully it does not seem to affect population or general health so far.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I wonder

        I love the downvote for factual science. Go look it up. Chemicals in water affects aquatic development (see the axolotl), I did not say is was bad or a conspiracy! There are data sets and papers on hormones or general chemical changes due to sewage.

      2. Stumpy

        Re: I wonder

        Just think, it might be beneficial for the populations of such seafood ... they drink the unprocessed alcohol, lose their inhibitions and just do what comes naturally after a night out at the fishbar.

  7. Fred Dibnah Silver badge

    'Spoons

    Standard procedure for disposal of stale beer.

  8. Muscleguy Silver badge

    Note

    The pub opening date will apply to England only as the Devolve Nations are doing our own thing since we value health and wellbeing over big bucks unlike Boris' England only rules.

    So I will continue to source my beer from Aldi on my weekly shopping expeditions. I buy English beer (Wychwood) and Scottish beer (Harviestoun). I buy good beer regardless of where it's from.

    1. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: Note

      Is that the devolved nations subsidised by England?

      Wonder how fucked up Scotland would be now if the poisoned dwarf had gotten her way? Considering her policies were based on oil at 3x current price, I think the Scots dodged a bullet there.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Note

        "Poisoned dwarf"?

        Twat.

        You're a perfect example of why the devolved Nations should leave.

        Tell me, why money grabbing England would "subsidise" us yocals? Is the government a charity looking to help others, or do you ignore the value YOU get from us?

        No need to answer - It's obvious that you use the word "subsidise" the same way jolly old England supposedly "subsidised" the EU.

        Incidentally. we all pay our taxes, and most of them are used to employ people in London.

        I wish Scotland, NI, Wales, and the North of England had grouped together, and the southern English separated, and taken their brexit disaster with them.

        I'm more alligned to Europe than I would ever be to the "English empire" boomers like you.

      2. Glen 1 Silver badge

        Re: Note

        Speaking as a English/Wesh person:

        It's funny how much the little Englanders don't realise most of the fishing waters and more importantly the oil fields are *Scottish*.

        That will be an interesting conversation come the indy negotiations.

        I agree with the previous reply. I'm more aligned to Europe than I would ever be to the "English empire".

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Note

          >It's funny how much the little Scotlanders don't realise most of the fishing waters and more importantly the oil fields are *Orkney*.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Note

            It's funny how much the little Orcadians don't realise most of the fishing waters and more importantly the oil fields are *Shetland*.

            It's funny how much the little Shetlandic folks don't realise most of the fishing waters and more importantly the oil fields are *The Oil and Gas Authority*.

            1. Paul Herber Silver badge

              Re: Note

              Hail the Peoples' Independant Shetland State (PISS) and we are back where we came in!

        2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Note

          oil fields

          Almost empty, and currently selling at $32 a barrel? Bit late to depend on those.

          1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

            Re: Note

            Not to mention that the direction any future Scottish border out to sea might take. Salmond started it all of by claiming all of the North Sea oil because he assumed that the border would go due East from Berwick. Another equally valid claim is to extend the sea border using the average direction of the land border, placing a large chunk of North Sea oil in English waters. It would likely be a long and drawn out process to come to an agreement on that depending on any future value left in the oil and gas fields and the fishing rights.

        3. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

          Re: Note

          the oil fields are *Scottish*.

          If you draw your own lines then yes, you're right.

          If you follow international law of following the land boundary out into the sea, you will find that most of those "Scottish" oil fields would end up in English water.

          So that isn't Scottish oil, it's English oil. But as we're in a union, it's British oil so it doesn't matter.

          Nasty little nationalist.

          "I'm more aligned to Europe than I would ever be to the "English empire"."

          We can tell that. Anybody but the English. Racist.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Note

            Speaking as an Ex-Nat supporter (their stabbing of the disabled in back was the last straw - better than PIP "oh it'll be structurally no different, the assessment centres stay, the criteria will be the same, everyone will be reassessed every 5 years whether they have a degenerative condition or not (And then blamed the expert panel for recommending it (they didn't, they did however reluctantly rubberstamp the idea after it was pushed heavily by the SNP, despite the much vaunted "lived experience" groups opposing this by well over 50%, so as usual the disabled are shouted down and ignored), the pay rates will stay the same etc etc etc etc etc) - According to them them I'm vexatious for not swallowing the party line and "unreasonable" for pointing what the various groups actually said

            Add on Equally Safe - authoritarian "feminism" (includes such nuggets as "sex workers harm other women by their conduct by normalising misogyny etc etc etc)

            Transphobia bigotry allowed to run riot with no sanctions for the worst offenders

            The bottle tax (campaigned for by a fringe group with supporters mostly from outwith scotland) abd they find time to shove it through in the midst of a pandemic to avoid parliamentary scrutiny, wonder why? likely as usual the sums don't add up and it will undermine kerbside recycling, putting councils under futther financial pressure.

            Shock collars "ban" (its not a ban at all by their own admission, despite them agreeing to ban them from public and parliamentary pressure)

            etc etc etc etc etc etc

            The Nats (and their front group - YES Scotland, who are meant to be independent of any party yet print SNP propaganda and word for work talking points, so much for them representing anyone other than the SNP - Greens definetely fell for that one hook line and sinker) are a pernicious cult that whip up grievance while painting themselves as white knights and representing ALL of Scotland and totally your friends, well until your criticise policy or question why something is being glossed over, then you are "vexatious" a "yoon troll", a "traitor", a "quisling", "get out of OUR country if you know whats good for you", "If you don't vote for the SNP there will be no NHS after the election" had one of their footsoldiers yell the latter at me outside my own home (along with other unrepeatable things), funny NHS is devolved AND its still operating (despite it being run down since 2007 and waiting lists rising from the moment the SNP took power

            They sound more and more like Trump every day with their "Biased media", "misreporting scotland, "Biased BBC", "misleading unionist media" "against the people of scotland" etc etc etc

          2. Glen 1 Silver badge

            "Nasty little nationalist."

            "Nasty little nationalist."

            *Precisely* the sentiments a lot of us British folk have about the blind jingoistic flag waving "We won the war" "Furriners go home" little Englander types. When you have your delusions of grandeur, stop pretending you mean for all of us. Hell you can't even drag the North of *England* out of poverty, let alone guide us to "sunlit uplands".

            We have the "nasty little nationalist"s standing in front of Union or St George's Flags - having successfully convinced half the country that our problems were caused by the big bad EU. As if we had no control over the decision making process.

            When the whole fucking point of remembrance sunday was so we "never forget" the horrors of war, we have rabble rousing gobshites complaining that international treaties mean giving away control, ready to send in the gunboats of colonial times past. Add in a reference to Churchill (but not a quote - after all, he was all *for* a United States of Europe, even if the UK was not to be a part of it), and you've won Daily Mail Bingo. What's that? Don't look behind the curtain of the trade deal with the US?

            "Anybody but the English. Racist."

            That's what I mean about delusions of grandeur - thinking of the English as a race. Another chap had the same sort of idea. He was Austrian, if I recall...

            It's not so much "anybody but the English" but "anybody that takes them seriously... so not the English, but perhaps the EU". The first indy ref showed how selling an optimistic vision of the future can help people aspire to be greater than on their own - ie with the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, and within the EU. It turns out England and Wales disagreed - ironic given that the UK had approximately the same voting power in the EU than Scotland has in the UK.

            The country has only gotten even worse since the EU referendum. Between No-deal-by-design and the mishandling of the Covid crisis. Buried reports into election interference. No magic money tree - oh wait - here it is. I could go on...

            Scotland has voted consistently left leaning for as long as I can remember. How many of those voters feel like their vote is wasted? Even if the MP you vote for gets in? Scotland basically gave up on Scottish Labour once it was perceived as an English branch office.

            It is not an stupid opinion to want to be shot of England. We have shown ourselves to be untrustworthy bullies. Even if breaking from the UK causes economic hardship to Scotland, it's not stupid to think it would be worth it - even if its just to get out from under the thumb of the "Nasty little Nationalist"s - or their slightly less scummy cousins - "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells".

            1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
              Thumb Up

              Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

              Spot on, Glen, 100% agree with all you wrote there, but I will point out this article:

              English people living in Wales tilted it towards Brexit, research ..

            2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

              can't even drag the North of *England* out of poverty,

              selling an optimistic vision of the future can help people aspire to be greater than on their own

              Bit of a contradiction there. Drag or inspire, which is it? Me, I prefer inspire.

              Even if breaking from the UK causes economic hardship to Scotland, it's not stupid to think it would be worth it

              That's the SNP ideal. The glory of reversing that defeat (or sell-out, as you prefer) 300 years ago is all that matters. Who cares about the economic future, Scotland will be "free". Might look good as an epitaph, not so great for the generations to come, at least those that can't emigrate.

              1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

                Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

                But essentially the same sentence - "Who cares about the economic future, Scotland UK will be "free". Might look good as an epitaph, not so great for the generations to come, at least those that can't emigrate." - can be applied to arguments to leave the EU, so why shouldn't we have the choice to put freedom before finance?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

                  Would never want to deprive you of the choice. After all, without Scotland we have a much reduced risk of suffering a Labour government ever again.

              2. Glen 1 Silver badge

                Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

                "Bit of a contradiction there. Drag or inspire"

                Inspire hope for the *future*. The 'can't even drag' is the *current Tory reality*.

                One might look forward to an optimistic future of an adequately funded NHS, Schools, etc, but the English keep voting Tory. Not even Ken Clark centrist Tory, but borderline goose stepping "hostile environment" for poor people people with an accent immigrants.

                Not to say that Labour govs produce a utopia, but good lord, it would be better than *this*. Even *Nick effing Clegg* understood the need for social housing.

                "Who cares about the economic future"

                Something something Brexit. If the economy is gonna be a shitshow for a decade, might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb. Especially if the endgame is to wrestle control of the national budget from Eton and Harrow. At least with Oxbridge they pay lip service to the idea you have to be clever to get in, not just rich.

                1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

                  Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

                  Are you special needs?

                  "One might look forward to an optimistic future of an adequately funded NHS, Schools, etc,"

                  Given the Barnett formula which massively subsidised Scotland and gives you far higher per head spending than the people who prop you up, why are you pretending that anything is underfunded in Scotland?

            3. Glen 1 Silver badge

              Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

              HAHA I didn't check the user name of who I was replying to.

              You really are "disgusted of tunbridge wells". That was an unintentional, but a funny coincidence.

              Although I apologise to the residents of Tunbridge Wells. Turns out you were the only Council area in Kent to vote remain.

            4. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

              Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

              "blind jingoistic flag waving "We won the war" "Furriners go home" little Englander types."

              Those people don't really exist anywhere other than the imaginations of those who Orwell described as more willing to be caught with their hand in the poor box than standing for the national anthem.

              Yes, there are a few NF types around. But you fit them all in a school gymnasium nowadays

              I really love how you people are in favour of single markets, but only ones that you have to cross the sea to get to.

              "That's what I mean about delusions of grandeur - thinking of the English as a race. Another chap had the same sort of idea. He was Austrian, if I recall..."

              You knew exactly what I meant. Why pretend I meant something else?

              1. Glen 1 Silver badge

                Re: "Nasty little nationalist."

                "Those people don't really exist..." "...you fit them all in a school gymnasium nowadays"

                Riiiight. Because the EDL isn't a thing? When Nigel Farage distances himself from UKIP because of the extremism, you know things are messed up.

                That's before we get on to the facebook/twitter posts doing the rounds. The standard Racist Uncle crap about "If my poppy/flag offends you". "Corbyn wants our kids dead in a terrorist attack", "Dyson has gone to Malaysia with an EU grant". "You'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for us, you ungrateful <expletive>" With the last one seemingly oblivious to the US, Canada, USSR et al.

                The Vox pops about "We need to leave the EU to stop the Muslims".

                Can I have a white Doctor for the operation

                Hell, the comments *here* about how if were still in the EU, Angela Merkel would be in charge of the UK.

                Does the above seem perfectly reasonable to you? "Nasty little nationalists" indeed.

                "You knew exactly what I meant."

                It was a cheap shot, I'll admit. However, it's no less prejudiced than UKIPers saying "Anyone but the mainland Europeans"

                "but only ones that you have to cross the sea to get to"

                Part of the attraction of the EU is that *inside* the EU, the UK is one of the bigger fish. Outside, there is US, China, EU, and the smaller fish.

                The attraction to Scotland is a market of ~446 million and a seat at the table vs ~58 million (UK without Scot) and whatever Westminster deigns to listen to.

                "Barnett formula " - from a different reply.

                So you are familiar with the Barnet Squeeze then? or are *you* special needs?

                From Wiki: "the expectation was that as inflation led to repeated application of the formula, average expenditure per head on devolved services in Scotland would over the years fall nearer and nearer to the English figure (the so-called 'Barnett squeeze')."

                As I answered previously, the argument that Scotland would be damaged economically comes under the heading of "could be worth it". I'm not saying it wouldn't be without its hardships, but when you have the types described above all over the TV, social media, the tabloid press etc, it's *understandable* to want to get the hell away from them.

                Especially when looking at the election results - the *perception* is that those sorts are in the majority in England. The rest of the UK (but let's face it, mostly England) seems to be dragging Scotland along a path it has voted *repeatedly* against.

                Scotland now being able to set its own income tax levels might be a good start. Devolve enough powers, and Scotland is independent in all but name.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Note

          Another one who has drunk the Nat Koolaid I see, that or a Socialist worker / morning star reader.....

          1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

            Re: Note

            I particularly like the congnitive dissonance of 'Brexit will be a calamity' and 'Scotland will be rich if only we could stop getting the English to subsidise us'.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Note

              None of the countries are subsidised by England. We all pay taxes to London. We all add value.

              Why do you think no "British" government wants independence for us? Out of the good of their hearts?

              Maybe so many of us want rid because of the english like you, who - not content to think you're magically better than foreigners - also consider us in the provinces as your little charity case pets who owe you a debt of gratitude.

        5. John Jennings Bronze badge

          Re: Note

          A Celtic Nation - with a Calvinist twist? While Northern Irish, and proud of it, not sure if Scotland and Northern Ireland would get on for long......

          :)

  9. Dan 55 Silver badge

    The dangers of no stock rotation

    Of course what the BBPA should be doing is taking a leaf out of the government's book and continually changing the guidelines so the beer is still officially considered as meeting the quality threshold.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Milk consumption?

    "This week we got the call to start dumping milk because processing plants are full & there is no place for it to go due to the closure of restaurants, schools, and food services"

    Many countries, including UK, have for a long time had an overproduction of milk. I'd really like to know how exactly the UK consumers have changed their habits.

    My kids consume probably just as much milk during lunch time at home than they did at school, and it's probably the same everywhere. Our household dairy consumption hasn't been affected at all, I'd say.

    Restaurants? Whenever I dine out, my choice of beverage is beer, wine or water.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      I'd really like to know how exactly the UK consumers have changed their habits.

      Food poverty is the answer.

      Exclusive: almost a fifth of UK homes with children go hungry in lockdown

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Milk consumption?

        Sadly coming from poverty (and I mean poverty) quite often the kids go dirty, hungry and thirsty while mum and dad puff away 20 to 80 a day, are never without alcohol etc. Not all but a large number cannot budget, cook or prioritise spending.

        The "welfare reforms" made matters worse but the underlying issues are still there no matter how much money they have,working or otherwise.

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Milk consumption?

          So the recent furloughs and unemployment have nothing to do with the recent changes in consumers habits?

          1. Charles 9 Silver badge

            Re: Milk consumption?

            Point is, for these kinds of people, given a little dough and the choice between beer and toilet paper, they take the beer and just ask for a receipt. Use BOTH sides...

            1. Dan 55 Silver badge

              Re: Milk consumption?

              I don't get it. We are talking about recent changes in consumer habits yet we are appatently blaming "these kinds of people" who have been the scapegoat since forever.

              Does not compute.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Milk consumption?

            So the recent furloughs and unemployment have nothing to do with the recent changes in consumers habits?

            Not as much as the inability and unwillingness of way too many parents to cook real food, when McDo is shut. No take-aways, we're all going to starve!

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Milk consumption?

              Inability is the big thing. Cooking requires taking time out in a life where there are 28 hours of a 24-hour say are already spoken for.

    2. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      Coffee and tea, plus milk products used in meals....cheese, cream and milk itself.

      Just think how much Starbucks and Costa alone use. Those two probably use 10,000s of litres per week.

    3. Sgt_Oddball Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: Milk consumption?

      Our household doubled our milk intake and even then that isn't always enough when milk in quantity is required during cooking/baking.

      How do I know it doubled? We get ours from a local dairy, about 3 miles away and we doubled up our daily delivery.

      They've actually reported to us current customers that they've seen an increase of trade to the point they're not taking on new customers. Swings and roundabouts for all in this.

    4. jake Silver badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      "Restaurants? Whenever I dine out, my choice of beverage is beer, wine or water."

      Are you really so ignorant that you think that the only place a restaurant uses milk products is as a stand-alone drink? Wow.

      1. Hull

        Re: Milk consumption?

        That's a bit harsh, isn't it?

      2. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Milk consumption?

        What about those that serve breakfast? Or people who take their (especially young) kids with them to dine?

        1. Sandtitz Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: Milk consumption?

          "What about those that serve breakfast? Or people who take their (especially young) kids with them to dine?"

          Whether I eat my breakfast at home, at a restaurant, workplace or wherever - my dairy consumption doesn't vary very much. The oatmeals and sandwiches won't differ that much from place to place.

          Young children typically seem to drink milk at a restaurant, but had the family not gone out to dine - wouldn't the kids drink a similar amount of milk at home then?

          I've noticed that the quarantine has changes *some* of my habits. I'm usually drinking perhaps just half a pot of coffee during the day when working from home. My workplace has good coffee always available and I'm just sipping it through the day.

    5. Marketing Hack Silver badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      In the U.S., a lot of school students (I'm not sure of the actual number, but it is 10s of millions) receive free school lunches every school day, including milk and what your school cafeteria categorizes as "food". So when you close the schools, it takes all those customers off the table.

      There have apparently been some efforts to continue the free lunch service when these kids are at home, but the logistics are of course now more complicated, so not as many of these free lunches are being handed out

    6. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      "I'd really like to know how exactly the UK consumers have changed their habits."

      Packaging. Factories/bottling plants are built to produce goods for their customers. Some of that is retail for the likes of you and me, some of it is for "trade" and comes in much larger packaged quantities. Most milk for the trade is in a plastic bag with a spout inside a large box, rather like those boxed wines you see in some supermarkets. Likewise, flour and the current "shortage". People are buying more retail items of both but the retail packaging plants can't keep up with demand. So, at the point of production we have oversupply because trade sale of dropped through the floor but in the retail market we have increased demand above the level of supply. Retail milk no longer seems to be a problem and the flour "shortage" seems to be easing a bit now. Packaging plants are adapting.

      Morrisons supermarket are manually re-packaging bread flour from their bakery 16KG sacks into 1.5KG portions using bags from the pie and pasty counter to help meet demand. If you ask nicely they may sell you a 16KG sack or there may even be some on the shelves. The bakery counter will also sell you fresh yeast for 20p. Fortunately, the milk is no longer an issue. I don't feel like going back 60 years and going out with a jug to get some milk!

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Milk consumption?

        Retail packaging (bottles, jugs, cartons, etc.) versus foodservice packaging (in the US, a 2 1/2-gallon bag-in-box of dairy product like milk, half-and-half, creamers, etc. is common for use in bulk dispensers). At least flour keeps as long as it's dry and it's practical to repackage them; milk, owing to its sensitivity to contamination, requires extra case and may not legally be able to be repackaged.

        1. Joe W Silver badge

          Re: Milk consumption?

          Flour does not keep indefinitely long. Especially wheat flour (the really fine, white one). It degrades over time, and the results will be pretty poor especially in yeast dough. I think the glutene degrades, as this is (mostly) what sticks together, forming a net to trap air so the dough rises. Yes, I did have that happen, we wanted to bake pizza at a friend's place who didn't bake that often.

          The shortage is (here) mostly in rye flour and wholegrain - there seems to be a reasonable supply of spelt whole grain, but bread becomes dry pretty quickly when using too much of that. The mills shifted production over to the fine, white wheat flour because most people focus on that. Now I'm running out of whole grain rye, so my daily bread (no, not daily in the sense of baking every morning, I'm not that crazy) is jeopardised. I think there's just about enough for one loaf, which will last us until Wednesday...

          1. AndrueC Silver badge
            Thumb Up

            Re: Milk consumption?

            Flour does not keep indefinitely long. Especially wheat flour (the really fine, white one).

            I thought it was whole grain that doesn't last long because of the oils remaining in the husk. I was under the impression that white flour can last a year more even without refrigeration.

            How long does flour last?

          2. jake Silver badge

            Re: Milk consumption?

            I've stored milled "white" flour for up to a year at room temperature and not had any problems. So-called "whole wheat", on the other hand, starts going off in a few months. Gluten doesn't break down in dry flour for the simple reason that gluten doesn't actually exist in dry flour. It is not until you add water to the flour that two proteins (gliadin and glutenin) combine to form gluten.

            More likely, the yeast you were using was past it's sell-by date, causing your pizza issues.

      2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re: like going back 60 years and going out with a jug to get some milk

        You don't have to go back that far.

        Going out for the Milk (in a large white enammeled jug) and the bread (only edible if covered in Mllk)

        was part of the daily ritual when working in parts of the former USSR in the mid 1990's. The Milk tanker would arrive and sound it's horn. People would emerge from the 'projects' and form an orderly queue (err... don't we have to do that today???) to get the milk. Hand over a few roubles/tenge/sum and your container was filled with milk that was still warm.

        History does repeat itself...

      3. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Milk consumption?

        Morrisons supermarket are manually re-packaging bread flour from their bakery 16KG sacks into 1.5KG portions using bags from the pie and pasty counter to help meet demand

        Not just Morrison’s, they all do it, which is lucky because it means we can still avoid Morrisons

      4. jake Silver badge

        Re: Milk consumption?

        I've been able to get 50lb (~22.5 kilo) and 100lb (~45 kilo) bags of flour all along. As have bakeries. There is no flour shortage. The shortage is in people, who are not allowed to fill "non-essential" jobs such as filling consumer-sized bags of flour. And bog-roll.

        Yeast is free, it's in the air all around everybody reading this. There are plenty of online articles explaining how to catch live yeast for yourself, and how to use it, so I won't re-invent the wheel.

        I go out with a jug to get milk twice per day, when I milk my cows. It's a quality control thing. I like cows, they are inherently honest critters.

    7. Tom 38 Silver badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      There's a solution for milk overproduction, I think they call it cheese.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Milk consumption?

        Unless there's a rennet shortage...

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Milk consumption?

          You don't need rennet to make cheese. I often make farmer's cheese with nothing more than milk and either lemon juice of vinegar and a bit of salt.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Milk consumption?

        Cheese makers (and butter, yoghurt, sour cream, ice cream, etc.) are making as much as they always have. Their production lines, storage/aging, delivery, and what have you are cranking along as fast as they were designed to go. They could probably run double or triple shifts and make more product ... but where do they store it (and/or age it) until it can be delivered to the consumer?

        1. EvilDrSmith Bronze badge

          Re: Milk consumption?

          Politico-eu reported a week or so ago that there are concerns in France regarding over-production of Cheese - demand from restaurants etc has collapsed, and the cheese can't be kept for ever (probably refers to softer cheese in particular, I'm guessing), so cheese is being destroyed or melted down to form lower quality cheese (at which point I think I stopped reading- there are some things it's better not to know)

    8. hoola Bronze badge

      Re: Milk consumption?

      I thought that there were issues making cheese because of a shortage of milk for quite a while of the last few years. I expect this is all down to the lunacy of the contracts the big dairies have and who they will sell to.

      Given that hard cheese generally lasts pretty well and reduces the volume, then why not make some cheese.

      How these big dairy companies and supermarkets work is just a total mystery. The only common thing is that the producer at the very start or the chain is usually totally stuffed whatever.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pub near me was selling all tap beers at £1 a pint, bring your own container, £2 for a 5 litre container. I think they managed to shift it all and it was quite funny to see loads of people with milk cartons and other assorted containers queuing round the block.

    1. Why Not?

      This seems the most sensible solution. Surely it helps everyone if Pubs can do this with their fresh stock?

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        >Surely it helps everyone if Pubs can do this with their fresh stock?

        Depends how long you think you'll be shut down for.

        If you are betting on weeks then people having a months supply of your product at home at a discount = bad

        1. jake Silver badge

          Fortunately for the pubs ...

          ... I've noticed that when most people purchase several month's supply of beer, it rarely lasts weeks. Sounds like a win-win for the publicans to me.

      2. hoola Bronze badge

        And you have solved the other huge problem of getting the full kegs out of the cellar. I think this is a major issue as it appears that you cannot just run the beer down the drain so it has to go back to the brewery for disposal. Most pubs are designed such that the beer is in the cellar and the kegs go in (down) heavy and come out (up) light.

        I am sure there is a nice health & safety risk assessment for someone there. How do you get full barrels out and maintain social distancing? That will keep some officious busybodies busy for a couple of months writing the regulations and getting some signs printed.

        1. jake Silver badge

          "How do you get full barrels out and maintain social distancing?"

          Forklift with a keg/barrel attachment. Some places have dedicated keg lifts, or simple goods lifts that pop up from the sidewalk/pavement. People who do it with manual labo(u)r will find a way, as they always have.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Some places have dedicated keg lifts, or simple goods lifts that pop up from the sidewalk/pavement.

            Many older UK pubs just have a trapdoor behind the bar counter, and a ladder down into the beer cellar. Kegs/casks are delivered by rolling them through the pub and down the ladder onto a foam pad. Not so easy to roll a full one back up.

            1. jake Silver badge

              Two words.

              Chain hoist.

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      It wasn't really that long ago when that was pretty common: fresh small beer was a lot safer than much of the water.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Until municipal water quality took a turn for the better, it was generally considered safer to drink beer than water as the process of making the beer worked as water treatment (heating the water in the wort and the fermentation of alcohol).

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          And the filtering. But, of course, the beer was also generally weaker than what we now drink.

    3. IGotOut Silver badge

      As a kid I used to go to the Off-sales at the local to get my dad's 5 pint keg filled up. It was just a tiny side room off the bar.

      1. jake Silver badge

        You can still get a Growler or several filled for off-site consumption at many brew-pubs here in the US.

  12. PhilipN

    i need to get out more

    Strange no-one mentions the occasions when he has been served a "bad pint". In fact its ages since I heard the expression. Must be something to do with publicans springing for refrigeration in recent decades. Or punters having got used to craft beers tasting like ditch water.

    To put it another way, I very much doubt all the beer reckoned to have gone off will go down the drain.....

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: i need to get out more

      So much beer is kept under pressure (CO2, etc.) now that it can't oxidise naturally nor does it provide a particularly good environment for the few microbes that can tolerate the alcohol.

      1. drexciya

        Re: i need to get out more

        At a brewpub in The Netherlands they offered growlers (based on their taps), and they were one use only, not resealable, and would last for about two weeks maximum. Only properly sealed bottles or cans can last for a long period of time. High ABV beers can, officially, last for 10+ years easily, just like the Belgian sour style (Geuze).

    2. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: i need to get out more

      You've solved it. Sell the out of date Carling and Fosters as "Aged Craft Mature Lager". Stick it in a bottle with a label printed at home, and charge a fiver (ten in London) and the problem is solved.

      They'll even brag how much better it tastes than pub beer.

    3. jake Silver badge

      Re: i need to get out more

      These days, "bad pints" are nearly always caused by lazy cleaning somewhere between the keg/cask and your glass. That, and methanethiol caused by light contamination after pouring.

    4. William Towle
      Coat

      Re: i need to get out more

      > To put it another way, I very much doubt all the beer reckoned to have gone off will go down the drain.....

      Off or not it's all going down the drain sooner or later, it's a question of whether you cut out the middle man first surely?

      // The "life cycle of beer" display at Saltaire Brewery is excellent, but we did note that but for decency it could be circular rather than linear

    5. Cynic_999 Silver badge

      Re: i need to get out more

      The only "bad beer" I have been served was a result of the bar staff making a mistake and serving me a mixture of beer and pipe cleaner.

  13. Chris G Silver badge

    A.R.S.E

    Who's up for starting a new NGO?

    The Ale Rescue Service Executive, we can go out delivering ale in danger of exceeding it's imbibe by date.

    The sellers can discount it enough to cover delivery costs and the recipients can pay a small sum to cover the time of the delivery personell.

    Everyone gets a share.

    1. ItWasn'tMe
      Go

      Re: A.R.S.E

      Could I suggest ARSE becomes a department, and make it a combined effort with the Redistribution And Transportation folks?

      R.A.T.A.R.S.E.D

    2. DiViDeD Silver badge

      Re: A.R.S.E Copyright Infringement Notice

      Sir, I demand that you immediately cease and desist any further action over your proposed copyright infringing activity. The A.R.S.E. nomenclature is already in use by SpaceAustralia in its tireless Space Research programme.

      We've already put it on posters, t shirts and (of course - this is Arsetrailer after all) stubby holders. as you can see here.

      Your idea makes a mockery of our high principles, sirrah!

  14. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Unpasteurised milk

    France's answer has been to relax safety rules governing the sale of raw milk. Keep your fingers crossed.

    It's pretty common in the French countryside anyway. My old landlady used to get it regularly but would also cook it herself, though I couldn't get used to the taste. Once we got a handle on TB and if the cattle are kept properly, there isn't really a lot to worry about, which is why so much French cheese is made with unpasteurised milk. Yes, listeria is a risk, but again, this is down to how the cows are kept.

    1. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: Unpasteurised milk

      You can buy unpasteurised milk in UK, quite easily if you are in the right places. But you can also drink water from your local stream.

      The question is why would you?

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Unpasteurised milk

        "The question is why would you?"

        Because it tastes better than the plastic swill you get at Tesco?

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Unpasteurised milk

          You can get nice pasteurised milk. The problem is that the retail is stuff is homogenised these days. Back when I was about 8 years old (so about 50 years ago) we had a family holiday in a caravan on a farm somewhere in Cumberland (as it was then). We got free fresh milk from the farmer everyday after it had been through his own pasteuriser. It was better than the normal bottled stuff deliver at home every morning by the local milkman and at least an order of magnitude better than current bottled milk from a supermarket. Sadly I don't know of anywhere reasonably local I can get real fresh milk any more.

      2. mike.dee

        Re: Unpasteurised milk

        It cost less than the one in supermarkets, the farmer gets more money, if you use your own glass bottle you make less waste. Besides, boiling milk isn't rocket science.

    2. Jim Mitchell

      Re: Unpasteurised milk

      Yes, "raw" milk is fine, until you're sick. Pasteurization has saved millions of lives, do you want yours to be one of them?

      1. jake Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Unpasteurised milk

        Actually, keeping cows healthy has saved millions of lives. Pasteurization was just a stop-gap measure until veterinary medicine matured. Raw milk today is safe. It is arguably also better for you because the pasteurization process destroys some of the nutrition.

        On the other hand, bovine milk is not really built for humans, now is it? Bovine milk is built for baby cows.

        In the gripping hand, beer. Staying on topic, dontcha know.

        1. Jim Mitchell

          Re: Unpasteurised milk

          Without sick cows, we wouldn't have a smallpox vaccine! Be careful what you wish for.

          Here in the US, in the era after urbanization, but before food safely laws, "milk" was a very questionable substance. PBS's American Experience had an episode on this subject:

          https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/poison-squad/

          People who wish for a "relaxed" regulatory environment (aka "conservatives" and "libertarians") might want to watch and see what unregulated capitalism can produce.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Unpasteurised milk

            Fewer (good for the O-problem), tougher (good for the healthcare problem) people who learn how to survive and not live off the government teat.

            Be careful what you wish for...

          2. hmv Silver badge

            Re: Unpasteurised milk

            It is surprising how common regulation comes after some abusive practice demonstrates the need for regulation. There's a similar tale from the UK about how flour in bread used to be adulterated which was so profitable than honest bakers were driven out of business.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Unpasteurised milk

          Dont trust farmers, business like ANY other, any chance to cut corners and up profits and it wil be taken.

          Dairy production is also horrifically inhumane, milk is also not good for human health due to the fat content, hormones etc etc

          Last time I tried a dairy "lactose free" yoghurt after eating non dairy, non soy equivalents (I'm intolerant to both), it was vile in both texture and flavour and no it wasn't out of date either...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Unpasteurised milk

            Well, take your pick. Abuse cows or abuse WOMEN...

            1. jake Silver badge

              Re: Unpasteurised milk

              ::sigh::

              Who let the kids in again?

    3. CountCadaver Bronze badge

      Re: Unpasteurised milk

      Other risk is Brucellosis

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Unpasteurised milk

        Is that the one where a key symptom is repeating "Nice to see you, to see you NICE" at frequent intervals?

        1. Charles 9 Silver badge

          Re: Unpasteurised milk

          Brucellosis is actually a decently nasty bacterial infection. Worse, it's persistent and can often recur. If a steer or horse gets it, it's generally considered a lost cause and euthanized.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Unpasteurised milk

            That's why my cattle are inoculated against brucellosis ... and why they are checked for it by a vet a couple times per year anyway, despite California being brucellosis-free since 1997.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Unpasteurised milk

              Is that free in the same way Alberta has been "free of rats" allegedly for decades now?, despite there being hordes in Saskatchewan and British Columbia (the provinces either side)

    4. Tom 38 Silver badge

      Re: Unpasteurised milk

      My parents live in the French Alps, in a region famed for its cheeses. In the town, there is a 24hr automated unpasteurised milk dispenser run by the local Reblochon co-operative. Costs about €0.50 for 2 litres.

      1. hoola Bronze badge

        Re: Unpasteurised milk

        Cool, a petrol pump for milk......

  15. Danny 2 Silver badge

    Red Bullshit

    I've just spent twenty minutes cheering on RB Leibzig because I don't know German shirt colours. The British public should have been prepared for this.

    I was at a Communist poetry gig in Edinburgh two years ago, and the guy gave the clenched fist salute. I returned with the Nazi salute. To be fair to me, anarchists don't learn salutes. I've promised just to wave in future.

    1. jospanner Bronze badge

      Re: Red Bullshit

      You aint no anarchist, bruv

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Red Bullshit

        I'm a better anarchist than you. Brither.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pubs not open till July 4th at earliest :(

    Think that was the worst sentence in the whole article, not open till July at the earliest. Another 2 months.

    Not sure how pubs will survive this, could have a big impact on the British way of life if there are no pubs.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Pubs not open till July 4th at earliest :(

      Have you started to learn the fine art of homebrewing yet? If you had started at the beginning of the lockdown/shelter in place/whatever, you'd have drinkable beer already.

      1. Cynic_999 Silver badge

        Re: Pubs not open till July 4th at earliest :(

        But drinking is only one aspect of the British pub. You could always have drunk alcohol at home far cheaper than going to a pub (whether homebrew or not) - but then you miss out on the social factor.

    2. Marketing Hack Silver badge

      Re: Pubs not open till July 4th at earliest :(

      I saw something about pubs rebranding themselves as garden centers (or centres in this case, I guess) and opening up, because garden centers can be open, but pubs are bad!!

  17. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

    Pasteur is turning over in his grave

    Pasteur was an Alsatian (e.g. from the civilized area of France) which is beer drinking region, Alsatians being civilized. Pasteurization was developed to prevent beer spoilage and later used on milk. I would have thought English beer was Pasteurized but then I am on other side of the Pond. What are the British requirements on beer Pasteurization?

    1. IGotOut Silver badge

      Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

      It still goes off. Just like you wouldn't drink 12 month old pasteurised milk

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

        I wouldn't drink pasturized milk in the first place[0]. It tastes dead. Awful, awful stuff.

        [0] If I drank milk. Which I don't.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

          Pasteurised milk tastes ok. Don’t confuse it with UHT milk.

          1. Tom 38 Silver badge

            Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

            We get filtered pasteurised milk these days, lasts for at least 7 days after you open it, and still tastes great - I can't tell the difference from regular pasteurised milk. We actually get the Tesco version, but they don't spend money on marketing pages, unlike Arla.

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

      No requirements that I know of. Keg beer (served by gas pressure) is usually pasteurized, cask ale (served by hand pumps) usually isn't.

    3. jake Silver badge

      Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

      Properly brewed beer doesn't need pasteurization after it's been brewed. The brewing process provides a bug-free environment for the yeasties, and the yeasties reproduce so fast that it makes the young beer inhospitable to the nasties.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

        You're forgetting the kinds of organisms that THRIVE in alcohol, like Acetobacter (What's one of the common results on too-old alcohol? Vinegar; blame Acetobacter).

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

          I'm not forgetting anything of the sort[0]. Freshly brewed beer is, to all intents and purposes, pasteurized. It is not, however, sterilized. The two have entirely different meanings. And shelf lives.

          [0] I made my first vinegar in 1967. From a bit of my Grandfather's mother & some hard cider. It was his grandmother's mother to begin with. The ol' girl is still alive & kicking, and a bit has been passed on to my Granddaughter.

    4. baud Bronze badge

      Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

      Though some beer producers in France had to throw away their beer, because not all beer in France is Pasteurized

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Pasteur is turning over in his grave

        not all beer in France is Pasteurized

        Let them drink wine.

  18. Marco van de Voort

    Pigs

    The traditional way of getting rid of slightly off beer is to feed it to the pigs (really, they love the stuff!).

    But here (NL/BE) all livestock is already chewing its way through a million tons of potatoes.

    1. jake Silver badge

      Re: Pigs

      When I'm finishing my hogs in the fall, they get milk and potatoes (to help with weight gain), and all the acorns they can manage to stuff in their face from the hundred or so acres of mixed oak scrub hillside that they are allowed to run around in. Tasty!

  19. Steve 114

    Jug and bottle

    My great grandfather's pub sold beer by the jug, to people who came to the door.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Jug and bottle

      In the mid 1960's I was sent by my Uncle to get the 'Dockey'. This job was to cycle over the fens to the nearest pub and get the big enammelled jug filled with beer. Then I had to cycle back to where they were washing carrots etc being careful not to spill any. The beer was for the workers as part of their lunch.

      Hinder & Stop would have had a field day. I simply collected the beer. The farmer settled up each week. I was 10-12 at the time. No one cared a toss about me carrying 5-6 pints of beer. Very different today.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Jug and bottle

        So you were a Bucket Boy, essentially. They existed during the Wild West, too. They used an enameled jug to prevent sudsing? Wild West workers took the simpler approach of buttering the rim of the pails.

  20. Marketing Hack Silver badge
    Pint

    Its hitting Australia too!!

    https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/may/14/australian-brewers-tip-78m-pints-of-beer-down-the-drain

    (I'd say more about this, but I am too busy crying uncontrollably.)

    1. Ken Shabby Bronze badge
      Pint

      Re: Its hitting Australia too!!

      Good to see El Reg standards are in use down under

      "The amount to be emptied is equal to 7.8m pints, 10.5m schooners, 11.8m stubbies, or 1.8 Olympic swimming pools".

      A stubbie and schooner are approx 0.75 and 0.85 grapefruits respectively.

  21. Danny 2 Silver badge

    Neil Gaiman moved from New Zealand to Skye

    After breaking up with his lovely wife. The local SNP MP criticised him for breaking the lockdown protocol.

    Author Neil Gaiman's 11,000-mile lockdown trip to Scottish isle

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-52697289

    I ken everyone on Skye, and they are all awful, awful people. I encourage every rich sick person to travel there tomorrow. Maybe don't visit the Kirks.

    In an unrelated note, I would like to invite Amanda Palmer to Edinburgh, if she doesn't

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVmrBMtKdFE

    lick me

    Fuck me I've forgotten HTML.

    Goodbye world. I fixed it but it's funnier as it stands.

    All my love to Neil and Amanda. You were kind of starstruck.

    1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

      Re: Neil Gaiman moved from New Zealand to Skye

      Danny 2 (user 33577), "I encourage every rich sick person to travel there tomorrow", what is wrong with you?

      1. Danny 2 Silver badge

        Re: Neil Gaiman moved from New Zealand to Skye

        Sick sense of humour, Mr Tunbridgewells.

        It's basically all English immigrants anyway and Neil gets a free pass anywhere.

        1. Danny 2 Silver badge

          Re: Neil Gaiman moved from New Zealand to Skye

          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-52705243

          Spoken to by the police!

          The local police thought the lockdown was best preserved by going out to question the guy.

          I really do know the cops of Skye, and stay home you utter numpties. Protect NHS lives. Neil Gaiman in his house on Skye was not a daft demonstration against lockdown in Glasgow and Edinburgh. He was not as bad as the Duke and Duchess of Rothsay who both fled to their Scottish home.

          We're going to face an economic crisis at the end of the health crisis. We could start by firing 90% of the numpty cops and maybe 50% of the numpty politicians.

          "New York City cops, they're not too smart" - The Strokes

          Sheep on Skye are smarter than cops on Skye. By far. To be honest it is not a bright place overall. Someone put up a sign saying, "Slow Children", and I thought that was cruel. Accurate, but cruel.

    2. Tom 38 Silver badge

      Re: Neil Gaiman moved from New Zealand to Skye

      I think that all the vitriol poured out on Neil Gaiman was a bit harsh - its his primary home, where he is registered to vote and pay taxes, and he just returned from the safest place in the world corona-wise.

  22. RobThBay

    Going to waste?

    I thought beer usually went to waist.... :)

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This has sadly reminded me

    I'm down to my last 70 year old bottle of Leacock's Bual Madeira :-(

  24. 89724102172714182892114I7551670349743096734346773478647892349863592355648544996312855148587659264921 Bronze badge

    If this doesn't get Boris Johnson indicted for crimes against humanity, I don't know what will

  25. Michael Hoffmann
    Pint

    National Day of Mourning in the UK?

    Will they declare one? I shed a tear down under and raised ye all a pint.

  26. TeeCee Gold badge
    Meh

    Internet taxis.

    ...not drivers...

    Really? I guess it must just be incompetence then.

  27. Claverhouse Silver badge
    FAIL

    A month or so ago I read of bars in Boston ( United States one ) substituting daily deliveries of Guinness to the faithful just like we used to have milkmen.

    Why on earth didn't British publicans do the same, leaving pints on the doorstep until the allegedly short-lived beer ran out ? I'm sure there'd be enough customers.

    .

    Disinterestedly, since I detest the stuff. No objection to others enjoying it though.

    1. Lotaresco Silver badge

      "Why on earth didn't British publicans do the same, leaving pints on the doorstep until the allegedly short-lived beer ran out ? I'm sure there'd be enough customers."

      Beer at home means Davenports, apparently. Which proves there are very few ideas that people can come up with that haven't been thought of/tried before. Apparently Davenports have started up their home delivery service again.

    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
      Unhappy

      A month or so ago I read of bars in Boston ( United States one ) substituting daily deliveries of Guinness to the faithful just like we used to have milkmen.

      Why on earth didn't British publicans do the same,

      One Belfast pub did, untill some jobsworth police decided it breached the letter of the licensing regs:

      https://www.newsletter.co.uk/business/belfast-pub-forced-suspend-guinness-wheels-delivery-service-after-claims-law-breach-2542975

  28. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Joke

    "a lesser but still troubling development"

    What ? It's a bloody disaster !

    I call for a nationwide effort. Breweries must immediately post open kegs at every street corner, and citizens must do their civic duty by taking a mug and ensuring that said kegs get empty as fast as possible.

    Come on, Brits, you survived the bombing of London, you can do this !

  29. Lotaresco Silver badge

    Home delivery

    Unfortunately I'm trapped in the UK at the moment, and have been since the end of February. When I do finally get to go home to Italy the good news for me is that our local microbrewery swapped to a home delivery service. The brewery is run by a group of young people who constantly come up with new ideas and fortunately for me they are within staggering walking distance of home, even though we live way out in the sticks with the nearest house being about a 10 minute walk away.

    1. Yeti

      Re: Home delivery

      That's what the craft breweries here in the Czech Republic do: they usually mashed together a quick-and-dirty e-shop or at least have a Goggle docs form you fill in. They either deliver by PPL or their own van; usually the delivery is free for orders above certain reasonable threshold.

      Works great, I've tried beers from places I'd be hardly ever be able to. One brewery even announced they've run dry and have to make much more beer to satisfy the demand.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Home delivery

        Given how small the Czech Republic is, I don't think you could try that successfully in a country much larger, and especially not somewhere like the United States where a coast-to-coast same-day order can only be fulfilled by airplane.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Home delivery

          a coast-to-coast same-day order can only be fulfilled by airplane.

          Or a high-speed train.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Home delivery

            "Or a high-speed train."

            In the US? You must be joking.

            A little quick research shows it is about 2430 train-miles from San Diego to New York. There are 9 trains leaving SD for NY per day. The fastest makes the trip in just over 72 hours on a good day (or three). That's an average of about 33.7 MPH ... I can drive cross country faster than taking the train.

            1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

              Re: Home delivery

              Not in the US of course, but in a country capable of running HSTs it would be a workable alternative to flying.

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: Home delivery

          The obvious answer is for each brewery to only deliver within a certain radius decided by themselves. Which makes sense for many logistical reasons.

          Please note: Even if it's allowed, I have no plans to do this any time soon.

  30. Xalran

    Instead of Milk & Beer

    Instead of Milk & Beer in France we are starting to throw away Potatoes, Cheese and Cider.

    It's the same everywhere... there's a production, but the logistical tail is not able to wag the products to the end users... directly... without having to go through layers and layers of intermediaries. Here lots of farmers have resorted to selling things directly to the people that asked them to. It allows them to keep having an income, to solve the problem of having a production and nowhere to send it ( to a point, they can't seell everything they produce directly ), to get food into the hands of people that wants/needs it.

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