UK enters almost-lockdown: Brits urged to keep calm and carry on – as long as it doesn't involve leaving the house UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson tonight told Brits to stay at home for the next three weeks, at least, to thwart the spread of the COVID-19 coronavirus. In short, Britons should remain indoors, and work from home if at all possible. They should only leave to buy food and medication, exercise once a day, or travel to work if it …
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He literally couldn't have explained it any clearer.
If you still don't get it, let me summarise it for you. Stay in your f*cking house, unless you need to get something you need to keep you alive, like food and medicine.
It really, really isn't rocket science.
He literally couldn't have explained it any clearer.
We, Australia, are in lock-down because there are some people idiots roaming on the streets flashing without-a-care-in-the-world attitude.
If people heeded the simple advice of "social distancing" in the first place, we wouldn't be in this bind.
And if nobody takes heed to the "lock down" then things can get ugly.
## Stay in your f*cking house, fools!
(And don't make me come over!)
If people heeded the simple advice of "social distancing" in the first place, we wouldn't be in this bind.
And if nobody takes heed to the "lock down" then things can get ugly.
I was expecting to be able to count the number of people I see out of the window on a per hour basis. Nope, everyone seems to be going about their normal day. It's looking more and more likely that the military are going to end up deployed to force people to stay in doors.
Stay the fuck home, mouthbreathers. The longer you fuck about the longer this goes on for all of us and the worse it gets!
Here is the list of business exemptions and it looks nothing like Johnson's speech or the guidance to people given elsewhere in this thread (link if it becomes too separated from this post). Or maybe they're supposed to stay open but customers can't leave their house to go to them.
Also, what about the other businesses not mentioned? Can they stay open if they don't serve the public or not?
No, they really can't write specs.
"Stay in your f*cking house, unless you need to get something you need to keep you alive, like food and medicine."
Except that isn't a summary of what he said. There's a lot of ambiguity. What if your employer deems your work to be "absolutely necessary" (like mine)? The same goes for the self employed.
"Travelling to and from work, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home."
That's the official quote from the government guidelines, it doesn't quite match your summary....
"Except that isn't a summary of what he said. There's a lot of ambiguity. What if your employer deems your work to be "absolutely necessary" (like mine)? The same goes for the self employed."
If your job really isn't necessary, then report your employer to the police, who will have a nice chat with them to find out what they are playing at.
Amazon still appear to be making deliveries as are DHL amd others so warehouses are still operating along with their staff - so its not a full lockdown. What they've done is shutdown shop type retail and banned public gatherings. If you're working in a warehouse or fullfilment centre its not clear what the picture is.
"If your job really isn't necessary, then report your employer to the police, who will have a nice chat with them to find out what they are playing at."
According to Gove this morning on Radio4, building sites are allowed to remain open even though they cannot garauntee 2m distances. Are those jobs necessary? Who deems what's necessary or not?
Gove stated that anything essential to public services is also included, e.g plumbers, electricians, boiler repairers etc.
In the predicament we're in, how many employees do you think really want to get involved in a stand-off with HR, or call the police in (which seems a bit of a waste of police resources)? There should be VERY CLEAR guidelines for employers, so that employees aren't put in difficult positions.
That's all we want.
If your job really isn't necessary, then report your employer to the police, who will have a nice chat with them to find out what they are playing at.
And don’t worry about how you will pay your bills.
I am OK, I have my income assured, but some folk are understandably anxious because they live from day to day and they can’t place their total trust in the government to ensure they get paid.
Try to call the police on the non-essential line
Did that once. Got answered by the front line operator almost immediately. "Which police force do you want?" "Putting you through." Ring, … ring, … ring, …, etc. Gave up after ~30 minutes.
"What if your employer deems your work to be "absolutely necessary" (like mine)? "
Same here. Field engineer. And the vast majority of our customers will still be working, whether at home or their office as appropriate because they are mainly key or essential workers. If their kit breaks, they still need to work. That will probably mean their own peeps go and swap the broken kit then take it back to base where we'll then turn up to fix it. We have of ant-bacterial cleansers and hand sanitiser since we'll have no idea if that kit is infected on the surface or inside the keyboard.
My, my. So many overnight global experts! And all about a subject little understood by the world's leading specialists.
Try reading this for a start.
"A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data"
By John P.A. Ioannidis
March 17, 2020
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/
The very job of the politicians is to make reasonable decisions without having reliable data!
'Data' will pull us down: While waiting for 'reliable data', the number of confirmed cases in the UK doubles every four days. Next doubling is from 6600 cases to 12000 on Friday. Out of those 'confirmed, aka as people feeling shit enough to seek medical attention' 1 in 5 cases ends up in hospital. Next Friday, the NHS has to make room for 2400 new cases. Monday another 5000 will arrive. Friday after that 10000 .... Monday 20000 ...
The 'wait for data' people must be writing their school papers from "Assume Infinite Health Care Resources and frictionless supply lines ..."
The point isn't to ignore it, but to accept that the data we have is the best data we have to make decisions today.
Tomorrow we might have different data, and the decision might change accordingly.
Had a telephone consult with one of my consultants yesterday, and their opinion was that the UK Gov response was still a serious under-reaction...
I have no intention of leaving the house (except to the middle of our garden, more than 2m away from the boundaries)
Well, here's some different data.
"As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK".
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#status-of-covid-19
Is that going to change your decision?
Didn't think so.
No, it won't change behaviour in this household - because I am on four separate immune suppressant drugs. The risk to me is therefore significantly higher than the general population, so I won't be coming out for a while.
Moving out of that classification is partly the result of increased awareness, and a specific test being available...
I'm currently watching "How to Command a Nuclear Submarine" on Netflix - it follows 5 Captains-in-training as they go through the RN training programme prior to taking on their own command.
The single biggest reason for these trainees failing to complete their objectives is 'command paralysis through overload of data' - they are faced with so much information that they need to be able to distill and decide very quickly, and many are not up to the job.
A good leader is able to make a call based on consideration of the right factors, INCLUDING time. Sometimes this means making a judgement call in absence of data, or when overloaded with data; it may not be a perfect decision, but it needs to be made NOW.
Good thing you never use any bridges, or in fact anything that was engineered in the last 50 years - all of which have used modelling to determine how to build them.
supermarkets model demand for perishable items, and do a pretty good job most of the time - because on average we are reasonably consistent in our behaviour.
The model fell apart when everyone decided to buy groceries for three weeks at a time... but that'd not unexpected (well, the panic buying was, the model failing on that event wasn't).
No, but transmission will have been reduced significantly, hospitals will have had more time to prepare and intensive care units will not have become overwhelmed to the extent that they have to leave the majority of people requiring critical care to die without treatment.
How long - as long as it takes - there is no defined end point at the moment.
What will happen - It will spread MUCH slower, giving more time for treatment options to be considered, and reducing the number of people requiring simultaneous treatment.
That last bit alone (which is easily predicted, and fairly reliable, as opposed to the wait for more effective treatments) is key.
For those who are not under 30, fit and healthy.... this particular virus carries a significant risk.
"For those who are not under 30, fit and healthy.... this particular virus carries a significant risk."
I should add that - and for everyone the potential overload of the health service carries serious risks - as well as most people knowing a number of people who are considered at serious risk
You just made my day. ROFL
My friends in the US have renamed the virus to 'Trump Virus'. His 'pronouncements' (sic) are so bad that in future people teaching effective speaking will use his rantings as how not to do it.
They see BoJo's words as being much clearer and actually admire him for handling the daily press conferences. May I humbly suggest that you try it yourself sometime. It is really, really hard to do any serious form of Q&A and with that load of political hacks wanting you to fail miserably (that would be the headline news... go figure) on every question, he's not doing too bad.
I'm not a supporter of Doris, far from it but I tried to imagine if whatshisname... oh yes, Jeremy Corbyn ws PM. We'd have a lot, no make that a hell of a lot more dither, prevarocation and bluster instead of action. He would not do anything without consulting half a gazillion people (unions, momentum and the party membership)
Right or wrong, who is to say right now which is which eh? Boris and the team behind him are making decisions on behalf of all of us. We need to get behind him for now.
Later, in say a years time, we can get the long knives out and get him out of No 10 with all that wonderful thing called hindsight behind us. I would pay good money to be at ringside for that event!
"Later, in say a years time, we can get the long knives out and get him out of No 10 with all that wonderful thing called hindsight behind us. I would pay good money to be at ringside for that event!"
Lovely as that thought is, the fucking muppets that voted him and his terminally corrupt Party into power will vote them in again because they showed" strength" and "leadership" in a time of "war", as well as being anti-EU. I would much have much preferred someone who presented a plan, and the responded to changes with a timed response, not a "everything changed since yesterday, and our response is effective without warning!" We, the electorate, ate not being treated as autonomous agents (again) - the Westminster elite have responded to people making their own informed decisions (going out to get exercise and fresh air on a nice day) with "The plebs didn't listen to us. Bring out the cane!"
Remember that the government doesn't care about you only themselves. They want to be *seen* to be doing something - at the moment they are responding to pressure from the media and other countries (obviously an odd form of "taking back control") instead of looking at this calmly. They also don't want to end up carrying the can for decades of running down capacity in the NHS (if hospitals normally ran on 80% capacity, like the pre-Thatcher days, this virus wouldn't be such a big issue now). They are making deaths and serious health effects from isolation an externality - suicides, deaths and injuries from domestic violence, DVTs, ill-advised DIY... the list goes on - will be blamed on the individuals concerned.
Many of the people listed as dying from Covid-19 may not have died from the virus, but simply with the virus in them. The tests are not robust enough yet. For example, the only death attributed to Covid-19 in the Czech Republic was a 93-year-old with more than ten co-morbidities, yet, because SARS-Cov-2 was identified in the person, that has to be given as *the* cause.
Remember: don't trust government and work with and for your community to protect people from governmental actions.
I’m actually feeling pretty sick that people are using this global crisis to try and score political points. Fucking appalling people. I’m no fan of Boris, but he’s doing OK in the circumstances. All this armchair criticism, hindsight wisdom and politically motivated whinging during these times makes me want to vomit, it is the wrong approach, save it for peace time low lives. Be constructive not destructive. Lives come before your petty politics.
This is rare anger from me.
I would not go that far - he has prevaricated and blustered with the odd off-colour joke (Last gasp effort to get more ventilators built) but at the same time I will follow HMRC and scientific advice. No need to make political points.
Although reading that again, I think that HMRC will probably not help very much - we are lucky to be in a position to have a very active order group and good cash reserve, as well as all staff happily based at home now. So maybe I meant to say HMG not HMRC.
Many of the people listed as dying from Covid-19 may not have died from the virus, but simply with the virus in them. The tests are not robust enough yet. For example, the only death attributed to Covid-19 in the Czech Republic was a 93-year-old with more than ten co-morbidities, yet, because SARS-Cov-2 was identified in the person, that has to be given as *the* cause.
Rather like Smoking Related Deaths of yore: they weren't necessarily caused directly by the habit,but if you worked as a coal miner for 40 years, slept in an asbestos house, and drank fish-tank cleaner as a pick-me-up each night, but smoked a cigarette after each shift, guess what got the blame ?
.
Some of this was to do with getting industry off the hook; particularly industry that scorned nanny-state regulation.
Johnson explains things terribly, about as bad as Trump, and with a lack of clarity that makes one wonder whatever caused the dons to rate him as high as a 2:1. How is it possible for so many apparently educated people to do such a poor job of conveying important information?
Your real problem with Johnson isn't any of this; even before the crisis he was already the best PM since Maggie. No, your real problem is you STILL think the wrong party won the election, and you know, you know that if Boris continues doing a good job of managing the crisis then he's going to be reelected again many times over.
You're frightened that your party blew its chance following a 1970s agenda in 2019, and you know what? You're right, they did.
No, your real problem is you STILL think the wrong party won the election,
Well - let's look at the vote share of the main parties, and compare it with the seat share:
Tory - 43% vote, 56% seats
Lab - 32%/31%
Lib - 11%/2%
SNP - 4%/7% (But very concentrated)
So what we should have had was a coalition - the tories had significantly less than 50% of the vote, so their policies were not voted for by the British electorate.
Yes, our electoral system is badly broken, but claiming that 43% is a clear majority is just male bovine excrement.
let's look at the vote share of the main parties, and compare it with the seat share
Yes, and that happened because labour voted against the boundary changes to equalize constituency size precisely because they'd spent a decade rigging the ballot in favour of their Northern heartlands, on the critically flawed assumption they would always vote labour no matter what. Oops.
Scotlands votes only actually matter if labour get enough votes to need a coalition. Libs are dead and aint coming back soon. Scots are SNP or nowt. So Scotland has chosen not to matter electorally. We have to respect their choice.
there's still no testing on arrivals from abroad
Most likely because there is not enough testing kit available.
Have a read of this: The US decided to make its own coronavirus test, but the process was plagued by errors and delays. Here's a timeline of what went wrong.
“The notion of accepting a test developed by someone else I think was a bit alien,” Schaffner said. “There may have been other considerations of which I’m not aware, but I’m sure that pride was one of them: ‘We know how to do this, thank you very much. We’ll develop our own.'”
We have grown accustom on China to produce something really, really fast and really, really plenty. With China in a lock-down themselves, it is left up to ... wait, no one is left. Oh, Duuuhhhhhhhh ...
How can you possibly know "how the virus got into the UK in the first place"? In Italy, South Korea and other countries the authorities have been quite unable to pinpoint "Patient Number 1". There seem to have been multiple sources of the infection. (Nothing at all to do with the US biological labs that were often very near).
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/03/no_author/covid-19-targeting-italy-and-south-korea-the-chain-of-transmission-of-infection/
HMG's advice to people abroad (aka tourists) was to come home pronto if you could that is.
Closing the airports would make that impossible.
Oh... which way to turn? Reminds me of the Mad Hatter.
Coat with gardening gloves in the pocket ready for yet another day of isolation (9th day) pottering in the garden. At least my Shed has a kettle, a chair and is out of the wind. SWMBO can mess about in the house. At least that way we don't get under each other's skin to much.
Well we have good weather for 'gardening leave', and living in the Scottish countryside, miles from the nearest town, I can get my 10 mile walk or 30 mile cycle in without seeing, let alone being in danger of coming even within 10m of anyone else. On my own as well as my partner is with the NHS in Glasgow - poor girl and staying in the her flat there.
Yes it does. No matter what 'the science' says about it, it's a pretty hard sell that everyone, except for tourists just plodding off a plane from Italy, should self-isolate and be diligent.
You *have to* treat your own people better than your customers otherwise it causes resentment, and then staff discipline together with service quality will go to hell!
I’ve been locked down in Lombardy, now in third week of confinement. Rather stricter than UK, but Italians are allegedly aiming for an R0 of zero, at present.
Cuba has just arrived with spare doctors, Russia sent a squadron of super-SAS doctors and spare respirators, China sent some expert advisors and even a US NGO has quickly built a military field hospital in nearby Cremona. I like this international cooperation.
I’m replying to this “airports” sub-thread as although my local Milan airports are shut until about the first week of April, the nearby Geneva airport has EasyJet still flying in/out for a few hundred swizz frankles. Friends thought that was a potential route back to Italy, (rail from GVA to Brig, then over the Simplon) So a couple flew in yesterday from Manchester, arrived at GVA and were denied entry and deported back to UK last night! That’s the severity of the situation. Oh and a dear respected scientist at work, with underlying health conditions, has passed.
So stay at home.
Who is going to pay for millions of home delivered meals, I wonder. Also where are the extra numbers of delivery people going to come from?
Spain has been locked down for a week and a half and we have just had 15 more days added, construction is still going on, so professional builders merchants are open but DIY stores are not. Some other parts of industry are also still in action but in general we are only allowed to shop for food and medications. Dog walking is permitted but exercise anywhere is not, none of these regulations anywhere are well thought out but that is in the main because they are ad hoc responses to a changing situation.
Oddly, during the cold war Civil Defence had disaster plans for bio warfare or pandemics as well as WWIII but apparently once the cold war had finished it seems disasters were no longer likely, hence the patchwork regulations each country is introducing.
That's OK: every single UK supermarket has buckled under the load, and is either not accepting new registrations (Sainsburys) or hanging when you try to do it (Waitrose) or not allowing you to buy anything (Tesco) or simply not bothering with a website any more (Ocado). So I guess it's go out and try to pick what food there is off the nearly-bare shelves.
Food markets *are* still open, so those of us lucky enough to live in market towns can still use those as our primary fresh food supply. They seem to be a bit less stricken by panic-buying than the supermarkets.
not accepting new registrations (Sainsburys)
That's kind of irrelevant. I was able to sign up with my local Sainsbury's after the curfew was imposed and before the time-banding of purchases was introduced, but, and its a big BUT, its not worth a damn because the website shows no delivery slots are available and the select your slot page has a note at the bottom saying they they can't do deliveries at present and don't know if/when/how they'll do them in future. No reason for non-performance is given.
My local branch doesn't offer an order and pick-up service either.
However, I have a modest proposal: let the Army to do the deliveries. Unlike normal military activities that can't easily be done in isolation, this can be done using their usual vehicles while maintaining isolation and will keep them active, unlike the rest of us with our minimal permitted out-door activities. Besides, I quite like the idea of getting my groceries delivered in an armored car.
This. Absolutely.
It's no good Boris telling us to use supermarket delivery services.
I couldn't create an account, and once we'd filled up SWMBO's shopping basket, we couldn't get a delivery date. Nor any information on when we would be able to get a date.
And its no good blaming people for overcrowding the Tube trains when they all knew the tube was at least 70% full the day before and at no stage in between did they demand EMPLOYERS close their offices and shops - and lets be really stupid and close half the stations and reduce the number of services. All the directives were aimed at little people - none at business.
If your boss says go in you probably have very little choice in the matter.
If they restricted travel earlier and more comprehensively and told businesses, shops and sports earlier then we wouldn't be in this mess. Until about two days ago their first and second thoughts were business and the economy, the rest was just platitudes.
NO JOINED-UP THINKING. NO LEADERSHIP AT ALL.
So??? Amazon Prime has just become a free (As in something you do not pay for) service?
It isn't free (other than the first month which is getting increasingly harder to avoid signing up for...).
As far as zero hours contracted workers go.
How do you know that the driver who delivers you 'free' Amazon Prime stuff isn't on one as well? Did you ask them?
And why, just because it is coming from Amazon does that mean the driver is any less likely to be carrying the virus or has come into contact with someone or something that is?
All these delivery services are perfect vectors for transmission.
One would hope that they were using hand sanitizer constantly before and after every drop. That or gloves.
"However, I have a modest proposal: let the Army to do the deliveries"
Why is it that whenever there's a little bit of a crisis, or something that puts the shiters up people, the default response is to involve the Army?
Calm the fuck down, walk to your local shop and do your shopping and walk back home. There you get your bit of exercise and your food at the same time.
I don't know about Sainsbury's but based on a single order from Waitrose by my Father-in-Law at Christmas, you can fill a basket up and book a slot then keep changing it up to the day before delivery. This means that a small number of scroats have been able to book all the delivery slots BECAUSE THEY CAN. It is the same as panic buying in the physical supermarket. What is needed is a rule in the system that prevents one account/address receiving more than one delivery per week.
I attempted to sort something out for my Mother and we managed to register but could not buy anything even if we found a delivery slot. This begs the question as to who are all these people that have the delivery slots?
Funny how badly a country seems to work when it's "organized" on the principle of "grab what you can and devil take the hindmost".
Whereas rationally, humanely run countries like China and Russia perform a lot better.
Planning isn't always bad. And good planning is better than bad planning.
None of them have had any delivery slots avialable for the next 3 weeks since the end of last week, possibly earlier.
It doesn't help that they decided to do for Easter what they have been doing for Xmas for a few years now and allow people to book all the deliveries months in advance leaving their regular weekly customers unable to get a delivery. I couldn't get a delivery for 6 weeks around last Xmas. Add to that Tesco drivers claiming to have made a delivery but the recipient never saw them (presumably they wanted the loo roll?) and supermarket delivery is useless right now. What my disabled partner will do if I fall ill is anyone's guess.
I still have everything else to pay for.
Yes, and food shopping was one of those things so is already covered. Lock-down isn't a licence to put away the pans and JustEat - simply have your groceries delivered or arrange a click and collect type thing and your bill stays pretty static.
Where the hell do you live? My nearest shop is 4 miles away, and they complain that they can't buy anything from the wholesalers!
I normally self-isolate to a large extent because of multiple issues. I spend £100 - 150 a week on a weekly shopping delivery from the nearest superstore (8 miles) for my family and have done for all of this century! However, for the last 3 weeks we have not been able to get a delivery slot and the earliest delivery we could get is still 2 weeks away.
My Pharmacist wife is in isolation due to a virus (don't think it is that one, but as there is no testing for NHS staff we don't know for sure), but had to break this to travel to the superstore (see above as to why the local shop was not an option) to get a few basics, but came back almost empty handed.
Things may be OK in the large cities, but just outside a county town the situation is dire!
Oddly, during the cold war Civil Defence had disaster plans for bio warfare or pandemics as well as WWIII but apparently once the cold war had finished it seems disasters were no longer likely, hence the patchwork regulations each country is introducing.
There's a bloke on twitter who suggests they could be taking more than a look at the old Government War Book for more ideas. Give @wellbright on twitter a look. Designated survivor, Python ship leaving port etc.
Up until the '70s at least the Civil Defence were still carrying out annual exercises for various types of disaster but of course most aspects of defence spending have been cut back on since then. Aside that is from the current 'Do it all' aircraft the UK is buying.
I've recently been reading up on Australian politics of the 1950s-60s --- a fascinating subject --- Apart from the fact that most politicians back then were wowsers and drongos *, I was struck by the fact that Menzies, in the interest of sucking up to the USA, pre-ordered the most modern long-range bombers from the Americans in 1963.
Might very possibly help in deterring the blue-ocean navies of China, Japan and Indonesia, had any of them the faintest possibility of building one in the next half-century --- which they didn't --- but I can't imagine a more frivolous and useless purchase for a continent 4000 miles from anywhere except tiny islands who may not have enough manpower to invade Oz.
.
.
* Back then there were:
The Liberals [ Conservative capitalists in the classic Manchester Liberal way ]
Country ---present National Party --- [ Conservative Rural Idiots ]
Labor [ Conservative semi-socialists, yet to morph into woke thatcherites carrying on the privatization dance ].
When you read the PDF for Business Users it only relates to retail premises. No mention is made about manufacturing/service companies closing. Some of my co-workers at the factory were interpreting 'travel to work only if essential' as only if the business was essential and we should not be coming to work.
As I understand it, if it's unavoidable you have to come into work at a factory or non-retail place, then it's not against the rules - but it's against guidance as well as your well-being and those around you.
The government doesn't want to say 'shut all the offices and factories'. It's more 'shut all the communal places like cafes and gyms and hotels and hairdressers' and everyone else, please stay at home.
Contrast to California where all businesses have had to close if they are non-essential, though some people are allowed in for special work like security patrols and ensuring payroll is completed. Restaurants and cafes are allowed to do takeout and delivery. There has been little ambiguity.
El Reg has been working from home since last Monday.
C.
"Non essential"
There you have a prime example of lack of specifications, although thinking about it should give a fair answer to any reasonably intelligent individual, I am there are essentials that many of us would miss the without a larger, clearer picture.
If these columns are anything to go by, the UK is panicking far more than I would have expected, whatever happened to the British stiff upper lip ?
I notice that the 1968 Hong Kong flue killed over 1 million worldwide and over 30,000 in the UK.
I was at uni that year, and I never even noticed it. Recently I have been going through old letters and diaries, and none of them mention a flu epidemic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic
"If these columns are anything to go by, the UK is panicking far more than I would have expected, whatever happened to the British stiff upper lip ?"
My point exactly, as previously mentioned !!!
Our parents/grandparents should be ashamed of the people we have turned into.
(I say this because apparently we have no shame ourselves !!!)
Our Brexit indecision (process as a whole) & our reaction to COVID-19 shows up the 'Current' UK spirit ....... perhaps we will be forced to learn our 'old ideals' the 'Hard Way' rather than simply look back through history at a better more caring version of the UK as realised by War and the last fight for our existence against Nazi Terror & Genocide.
@Chris G
"whatever happened to the British stiff upper lip ?"
We got 'woke' and look to Europe. look at how Boris started and how he seems to be forced to 'do something' just like the over-reactionaries in Europe. France is running the military through the streets to go to war with a virus and the rest is various and slightly lesser stages of 'the sky is falling'.
Instead of the intelligent approach of wash your hands and be sensible (which is about the only answer right now) we have people demanding the gov must do something, even though the gov literally cannot solve this. The gov decided to manage the hosts as they cannot attack the virus and people cried how they preferred the approach of China! That by itself makes me question what happened to education or thought.
And of course Boris will never be able to do right because he is a Tory.
The attitude has feck all to do with having been in Europe, the French have not lost their obstinate natures and the Germans and Italians have managedto maintain their national characteristics, maybe you could blame some other foreigners, or perhaps you could look to yourselves and get some British spine back. At the moment, being in or out if Europe is not going to make a difference, acting with some common sense and everybody supporting everybody else will. Panic only leads to more panic.
@Chris G
"The attitude has feck all to do with having been in Europe"
Reading your comment you seem to have made 2 big mistakes. You seem to be using the word Europe in place of EU (we are not leaving the continent, only a political organisation) and I didnt say our reaction had anything to do with being in the EU.
What I said was- "We got 'woke' and look to Europe". When China locks everyone up nobody really championed that approach. When Europe did suddenly we panicked.
"acting with some common sense and everybody supporting everybody else will. Panic only leads to more panic."
I agree. The UK initial reaction was pretty sensible from the gov and if people would so the simple hygiene and common sense then all would be fine.
A horrific disease happened to it. Panic if you can't stay indoors and away from anyone (who cannot also do that themselves) is *rational* when faced with something that spreads more easily than flu and hospitalizes a high proportion of those it infects -- and even if you survive that, the experience is reportedly horrible. Going on a ventilator is not an easy thing: it takes months to recover and often causes permanent damage. COVID-19 may well also cause permanent damage to the heart, liver, and kidneys. Being extremely worried seems sensible to me.
Incurable diseases with consequences like this are beyond the memory of almost everyone now living in the western world. Of *course* people are panicking.
As far as the Tories are concerned they got rid of all that dirty manufacturing in the 80s thanks to Saint Maggie. Why would they waste time writing rules for something that doesn't exist?
(Unlike the Tories I know there is more manufacturing in this country than people realise.)
As a side note to that, quite recently in Gov UK there was the idea that we didn't really need UK based farming any more (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-farming-industry-tim-leunig-treasury-brexit-nfu-a9367001.html). I guess the idea was we "successfully" outsourced manufactoring so why not food production too?
If my only form of exercise includes the self I'm not sure I do it with family that would just be weird.
On a more serious note these are the most ambiguous set of rules I've ever seen and only our government could come up with them. Sometimes I think we are a country of clowns run by clowns. I'm off to my 6-2 shift at a supermarket in a minute and I can guarantee it will be pandemonium with clowns bulk buying flour even though they have never baked a loaf of bread in their lives.
One wonders about their arse-wiping capabilities.
I wonder that about most of the people I encounter in a typical day, as well as who is dressing all these idiots so they can go out and walk among us.
I can guarantee it will be pandemonium with clowns bulk buying flour even though they have never baked a loaf of bread in their lives.
Nail on the head! My wife does make her own bread, but hasn't been able to get bread flour for a couple of weeks or more. Never knew that so many people made their own. Meanwhile, there is no shortage of actual bread and other bakery products.
Keeping calm and carrying on is something of a myth. Just like during WW2, I'd be very surprised if there isn't already a strong black market in groceries. Nobody could personally use the amounts many people have been seen to be buying. If we're going to have emergency powers, one should be to curb this, as many people are being left without adequate supplies.
There is definitely a black market for groceries! I was looking for red lentils and kleenex tissues, both for sale at vastly inflated prices on ebay but out of stock everywhere else! E.g people attempting to flog 500g of lentils for £15 on ebay, usually about £1-£2 in the shops. Luckily stock levels are gradually returning to normal so these opportunists will be out of pocket soon.
Little update form today, managers all in meeting and conference calls till 11, staff meeting is usually 10 was done at 11:30.
Were told stricter measures likely and all staff given letters confirming that they are critical workers and where they work, even the ones finishing at 12.
Take from that what you will however I think they have been given a heads up regarding a curfew.
Just watching the news, here in Spain they have been leaving the dead (and some barely living) inside.
Don't know the full details yet but apparently a load of people in senior care homes have been abandoned, we don't even know if any of them were infected with corona.
I suspect it is largely due to the employment of poorly paid and abused foreign workers, most of whom have little or no in house training or materials to work with.
Even if isolation was absolute, in three weeks the number of cases resulting from previous contacts will just have peaked, and the number of deaths would just be peaking, so there is no way restrictions would be lifted at that point. In at least 8 weeks when deaths are on the decline, any relaxation will rapidly lead to further increases in infections from symptomless carriers, and restrictions being restored.
The really clue to all of this is the emergency legislation will be debated and renewed on a 6 monthly basis, i.e. this is going to be long term.
It looks like a strategy with no exit, other than hoping that an effective vaccine can be mass-produced at some indeterminate point in the future. Or maybe we end up in that Bruce Willis movie, Surrogates.
I wonder how long you can keep people cooped up with their immediate families before the murder rate outstrips the death rate from the virus.
"debated and renewed"
The debates will stop fairly quickly, but the renewals will be rubber stamped.
This level of power is intoxicating for everyone involved: protesters getting annoying in front of Parliament? Police have full dispersal powers. New political party making waves? No more than two people are allowed to gather together. Want to track the public? Monitor all mobile location data and see who has been meeting with who.
Lest we forget, the "emergency" terrorism rules were used by everyone from dog catchers to councils looking for fly tippers and the majority of those laws are still in place.
Widespread intensive suppression now to bring the transmission rate below 1, then gradually ease societal restrictions combined with widespread testing to rapidly identify any rebound areas. Where rebound occurs, impose local quarantine. Rinse and repeat until transmission rate tends to zero.
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56
If history is any yardstick to measure by then this coronavirus outbreak is not going to be a 'comfortable catastrophe' where the enlightened prepared ones can simply bug out drinking beer in the woods for a month while the government returns things to normal. Now some say the rules here for the next three weeks are ambiguous, I suggest we are being given the message of a choice: Behave & shop responsibly lest harsher rules be enforced. It's probably worth mentioning that one of the biggest boosts to the general health of the UK was food rationing during WWII and if reintroduced as an emergency measure you can bet they will include a photo ID this time around. Plus under the guise of health 'screening', well that's a swab of everybody's DNA on file.
I speak from a position of 40+ years of observation of government (NOT Parliament), and teaching and researching administrative and constitutional law for nearly half that time. Not unconnected is that I have effectively lived through continuous Conservative government (Blair's administration was Tory-lite). Maybe you can show *any* proof that government in the UK has done anything to help you, without helping themselves more - I'd be genuinely happy to see it, because my distrust of UK government weighs heavy on me.
I was, as intended by a clickbait beeb text, about to get into a high indignation mode about sportsdirect, that ryanair-sque company that decided to brave the virus (and make profit while it spreads and competition is gone) by staying open as one of the "essential" retailers. And yes, indignation would have been in place, other than the fuckwit-gov advice to let bicycle shops open. Which includes, what else, your corner bike shop, aka, decathlon. And yes, their corner superstores in Croydon, south London, and others around the non-lockedown London and elsewhere, are proudly open as of today, with a large, luvely front-page banner "Keep your family active" (you know how to teleport to our nearest superstore, right?)
p.s. yes, I get it, "Boris on his bike", but WTF?!
My sister is self employed and has an online shop on ebay and her own website, she already works from home but needs to be able to go to the post office or Royal Mail depot to drop of parcels for the customers online orders. It isn't an 'essential business' so the guidance is vague regarding going outside for something like this, as its not one of the 4 exemptions for leaving the house. So she isn't sure whether that is permitted or if she needs to close the ebay shop and website so she is not leaving the house unnecessarily. But in doing so she will then just become another closed business and have to claim benefits as she doesnt have the funds to be able to survive for a long period without any income.
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What about workers in a workshop doing industrial parts or non-food factories? Are these one supposed to be at work? I don't think that these are key workers but forced to go to work. In that case the management does not talk about CV at all, pushes it under the carpet. No chats, no information about the companies strategy ... nothing.
Misplaced priorities, ill-considered advice, and petty political concerns (e.g. trade sanctions against Iran and persistent vilification of China) have brought the global economy to its knees and induced exaggerated fears among ordinary folk.
Repeat of 2008/9 was widely predicted. The pandemic is merely a precipitating factor brought into play by panic response to the 'flu; many governments now face economic meltdown and handling what's deemed a public health 'crisis' at the same time. Most governments previously were able barely to cope with 'business as usual'; faced with a two pronged disaster they run around like headless chickens.
Italy faces economic collapse and social disintegration. The EU demonstrably is incapable of organising co-ordinated response. The USA is headed only God knows where. Boris Johnson has taken this as opportunity to brush up his Churchillian rhetoric.
Crying over spilt milk gets one nowhere. However, in this instance revisiting the initial muddled thinking is helpful because it leads to suggestion of how panic mode may now be abated and the painful task of revitalising economies begun (with measures introduced to place markets as servants of populations rather than their masters).
It was clear from the outset that recognisably vulnerable people were at high risk of sequelae from infection, particularly death. By the nature of things, prevalence of vulnerability increases with ascending age group. The age-structure of Italy naturally made it an epicentre for raw numbers of deaths arising but there is no reason yet to believe case-fatality by age group differs much from elsewhere. This 'flu virus clearly is more harmful to some than seasonal 'flu but the fact remains that almost all cases are minor illness. Nevertheless, government responses better match those appropriate for the smallpox outbreaks of distant memory, and some high fatality new plague, than the present circumstance.
The proper initial reaction would have been to encourage and facilitate isolation of known high risk people and suggest that the elderly in general voluntarily stay at home. A couple of billion pounds could, if necessary, have been deployed to make voluntary isolation quick to implement, comfortable, and with minimal risk of exposure; compare that to sums involved in mitigating economic meltdown. Meanwhile the epidemic could have been allowed to run its natural course through the healthy population. There would be minor inconveniences arising from sick people taking days off work. There would be some unexpected deaths among the exposed 'healthy' population - inevitable, sad, but no great disaster when put in context of life's other risks. The more quickly exposure to the virus occurs among the healthy population the less time vulnerable people need spend in isolation.
It remains feasible to institute that scheme and thereby salvage something from the economic wreck.
Good sense dictates simple solutions rather than false hopes reliant upon stocking up on ventilators to be used on people many of whom would nevertheless die and, particularly among the elderly, others emerge for continuing low quality existence. For good reason, pneumonia was at one time called "the old man's friend": the best choice among ways to go.
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Released under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 international license.
Meanwhile...
...in Putin's Russia lions roam the streets at night to enforce lockdown (if it is true). I nearly widdled myself laughing when I saw that.
...in South Africa the army has been deployed and we are gearing up for a lockdown. Only time will tell if people will actually adhere to lockdown regulations.
I will be one of those who will adhere to lockdown regulations. What runs in our favour is that we are on a smallholding, so lots of space without any neighbours coughing at us.
Whilst I believe that it is pretty much established that COVID19 came out of China as a result of their appalling "Warm meat trade", we are where we are. In this fast evolving situation it is difficult to do anything other than react, particularly when you have a population that stubbornly refuses to take any notice of the advice being given. What happened this weekend here and on places like Sydney just demonstrates how stupid and selfish a large sector of the population is. The resulting lockdown is not surprise, it is encouraging the BJ had the balls to do it Monday.
Even then some people are still bumbling around as if nothing has changed.
I have a friend who is a anaesthetic consultant in a major hospital. She is on the front line of this and they do not have enough PPE. In the hospital they are saying thing like "I did not sign up for this and die, this is not the army". Apparently one of the ways it was turned round in China was a ruthless policy of not treating people who had no hope of survival. Victims were put together in wards and if they survived, then they were treated. This reduced risk to medical staff and maintained resources for those with a good chance of survival. Here every case that comes in is treated the same regardless of outcome. This then puts further lives at risk as resources and staff are stretched. I cannot answer which approach is right, that is a political and moral problem but it is infinitely more difficult to make those choices in a society where the ethos is to preserve life at all costs. Ultimately the availability of respirators, staff and beds will dictate what happens.
Not actively treating, but making as comfortable as possible, people with little chance of recovery is not only good use of scarce resource but also kinder to patients and families. Ventilators, if the patient remains semi-conscious, offer an unpleasant transition from life to death. Also, 'saving' lives for its own sake is silly unless account is taken of anticipated length of subsequent survival and quality of life associated with it.
Unfortunately, we now live in an ethos in which many medical professionals take deaths of patients as personal failures. The professionals are technically proficient but ethically deficient: what they might regard as preventing personal failure intrudes on what could be the patient's best interests.
A significant part of my Wilderness First Aid and Casualty Care training over the years has been about when not to bother.
My daughter has just qualified as a UK doctor and they are worried about the percentage they lose as bureaucracy use that is a valid metric without any form of context. (It's one of the metrics provided to prospective patients when they chose where to have treatment.)
[ICON] My only white coat is used for stock judging, not for medical use!
I drive a taxi and it seemed to me today that a lot of people in my area were totally ignoring the instructions, still going about their every-day business, possibly thinking that they were advice only, I guess, but are they actually mandatory and involve police, without formally going through parliament? Can Boris do this, or has he been watching too much Trump TV?
It speaks for itself that a British citizen has to ask whether the UK is still a country ruled by law.
Probably the answer is "yes and no". It's not ruled by law - exactly - but it is ruled by obscure regulations and the arbitrary decisions of bureaucrats who were empowered - secretly - by law long ago.
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