meets becomes slavery
Tesla CEO Elon Musk said employees should continue working at the automaker's Fremont factory despite the site falling under the San Francisco Bay Area's strict near-lockdown order. Alameda County, where the factory is located, is among several California counties – San Francisco, Santa Clara, San Mateo, Marin, Contra Costa, …
> The coronavirus panic is dumb
> Fear is the mind-killer
Erm, so what? Panicking is always dumb and fear is the mind killer.
Doesn't mean he doesn't consider the virus a serious concern.
Panic is what is causing morons to buy hundreds of loo rolls, jars of jam and flour, enough to last a sane family for a year.
"causing morons to buy hundreds of loo rolls"
My idiot neighbor has half of a two car garage stacked head-high with bog roll. I just drove by, and he's unloading a 14" Penski rental truck full of more (in the rain). Gawd/ess only knows where he is finding the stuff ... or when he'll finally figure he has enough. No, it's not for sale. I asked to buy a package. He claims he needs it all "just in case".
The same neighbor has no food in the house. The mind absolutely boggles.
@jake: I agree. To me, it feels as if there is something missing from the narrative. This bug is nasty, but the reaction is more appropriate to something with very high transmissibility and a >20% death toll and equivalent long-term morbidity across the population. I know young, for, healthy people who are isolating themselves and their children "in case they get it". Who benefits from this sort of misinformation that leads to panic? Governments, who were/are increasingly in fear of backlash especially in Europe and the USA.
(Wanders off muttering about risk illiteracy and becoming a conspiracy theorist...)
The spread amongst the young and healthy might not directly affect them, but it does affect those amongst us with lowered immune systems, or respiratory illnesses, or the elderly.
Coordinated isolation isn’t a ridiculous response, but we should probably be coordinating that response wider than just the bay area!
I'm in the Bay Area. It's not exactly what I would call "coordinated isolation". The authorities are calling it "shelter in place". For rather small values of place. Read it for yourself here: https://coronavirus.marinhhs.org/sites/default/files/Files/Shelter%20in%20Place/Shelter%20in%20Place%20Order%2016%20March%202020.pdf.
Yes, the streets are quiet. But that won't last a week. Why not? Because if you read the above, people are allowed to pretty much do everything they have always done in their day to day lives, So they will. They are people, that's what people do.
The exception is activities where one is in close proximity to multiple people who are not members of their immediate household. And "multiple" seems to be fairly arbitrary. So there is no real isolation at all, despite what the news may be trying to sell you.
Yes, bars are closed. Gyms are closed. Tasting rooms are closed. Restaurant dining rooms are closed. Tourist attractions are closed. Schools are closed. Places of worship are closed ("voluntarily", of course, to stop the fundie howlers from howling).
But pretty much everything else? Have at it. You can still get restaurant food to go. Shops are mostly open for food and sundries. Hardware stores are open. Feed stores are open. Most automotive mechanics and parts stores are open. You can call or visit a plumber, electrician, HVAC, small appliance, pool etc. specialist & get service. Gas stations are open. You can visit parks. Joggers are out jogging. Dog walkers are walking dogs. Surfers are surfing. Skiers are skiing. Subaru owners are driving badly. Bicyclistotards are doing everything they possibly can to piss off drivers. etc. etc.
The police are not even going to enforce what little "the rules" have to say on the subject. Rather, they are going to take an advisory roll. This has been repeated ad nauseam on the news for the last couple days.
So for the entire Bay Area, speaking as an eyewitness, this entire isolation thing is lip-service at best, and complete fabrication/misdirection at worst. Somebody's playing games, and I'm not sure who ... but I suspect it has something to do with the coming November 3rd.
May you live in interesting times ...
If by Coordinated isolation you mean staying at home if you think you or your spouse/kids have got the bug and/or not visiting vulnerable people/elderly parents if Fred from the office has called in sick because of it then I'm with you. But then that's what happens among sensible folk pretty much every 'flu season.
Closing businesses, restaurants, theatres, and going out panic buying stuff is complete lunacy.
Looking on the bright side - at least there will be fewer deaths attributed to 'flu this year.
Just for clarity: Yes, it can kill people, it's true. If I catch it it might kill me - or my spouse. Life is precious - live it.
there is something missing from the narrative
If you adopt an entirely amoral perspective, then you could argue it's not a serious problem. You dig a series of large holes and as the (mostly) economically inactive people become very sick, you throw them in. In a couple of months, it's over and the rest of us get back to our normal lives.
If you feel a moral compulsion to attempt to treat people who are seriously ill then it becomes a real problem to match need and resources. If you do nothing to stop tens or hundreds of thousands of people becoming sick almost simultaneously it's ethically much the same as if you choose not to treat them at all.
It's not the risk to individuals that's the problem per se, but the risk of so many individuals becoming ill at the same time that the low individual risk still results in overwhelming consequences. The dilemma is that avoiding overwhelming consequences has overwhelming consequences of a different kind.
I live in Spain, we are in lockdown but there is no actual panic.
People are generally playing by the new rules and staying home, but the shops are full of all the normal stuff and nobody is filling trolleys with bog roll.
So far there have been 500 deaths with the fatality rate increasing by the day. This in what is officially the healthiest country in Europe with one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
So a total lockdown is not an over reaction, if fact anything less would be criminally negligent.
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Like Donald, Elon believes that if he says it, it must be right. If he says something different in a few days, that also must be right. And he will still insist that his first statement wasn't wrong.
It isn't fake news, it's magical thinking by people who believe they are smarter than the experts and the rest of us.
He won't be taking any risk parking in his private spot, going in through probably a private entrance, and sitting in his private office. It will be all the people on the factory floor that won't be able to maintain appropriate distance from each other at all times, will be touching the same stuff etc. that will get them sick.
If one of his employees catches it and dies, Tesla will be sued into the ground, and deserve it.
"If one of his employees catches it and dies" if they are of working age and healthy, they are highly unlikely to die or even need to be in hospital.
If they are over 65, then yes, they should stay home. The long term economic damage and hyper inflation that's coming our way will kill more people of working age than the virus ever will.
The reality is that governments are doing this to protect the elderly, however many of the elderly are shrugging their shoulders and think its an overreaction.
15% mortality rate in the over 70s. If you're not bothered if you get it and you're over 65, that's fine, just don't call an ambulance when you can't cope, as it's no fair on the people who are bothered!
Every old person I have spoke to said it is an overreaction and they don't see themselves as high risk.
I think you summed it up though. Old people, ask yourself, would I call an ambulance and take up a bed if I was dieing from it? If yes, then self isolate and take it seriously.
Then you must know a lot of stupid old people. I live in the city with the Tesla plant, and every old person I know (a lot) including me, is concerned. Not panicking, but concerned. Traffic on the streets is way down. We canceled a ton of meetings and activities. The malls are closed. The theaters are closed. Plenty of walkers, but we stay an appropriate distance away. Same holds for the grocery stores.
And we're not ignorant - my wife wrote two traditionally published books on vaccines (pro, of course) which are good sellers on Amazon.
I wish the Fremont cops - who are good people - cuffed the plant manager and Musk if he had the nerve to show up when they visited the plant.
Old people, ask yourself, would I call an ambulance and take up a bed if I was dieing from it? If yes, then self isolate and take it seriously.
I know a couple of 'old people' (relatives of relatives) who are self-isolating. They're having stuff delivered and left outside their front door. They go out to get the boxes of stuff wearing rubber gloves and dust masks and wipe it down with disinfectant before bringing it inside. I don't know if they then wipe down the contents of their delivery boxes.
The poor sods are clearly terrified.
I can't imagine them surviving stress like this for 12 weeks as some have suggested might be necessary - let alone a year as some other politicos have been touting. This is no way to live a life.
If the death rate is about 0.2% for people in the 30-50 range like I've seen, then if 500 out of 2500 employees catch it (easy to imagine once it starts spreading since it takes almost a week for symptoms to show up) then one of them may die. If more than 500 catch it, the odds that one dies go up to near certainty - especially if hospitals are already overloaded.
There are reports out of Italy that a lot of people hospitalized are younger. Whether that's because younger people aren't treating it seriously and are getting infected in greater numbers or because the odds for hospitalization are similar between age groups and it is mainly the death rate that differs, who knows.
Interesting that Quach failed to even mention the fact that just two days ago Elon sent a mail to his employees which said that at this point in time, work is effectively voluntary. If any staff feel sick or even just worried about the CV19, they don't need to come in...
Still, generally, when Quach writes about Tesla it's negative, so no real surprise. Seems their investigative skill is limited to scouring twitter...
In the same way it was voluntary in a certain dilbert episode...
If you voluntarily don't come into work *because sensible*, you've volunteered to be sacked shortly afterwards.
The man is a sociopath and the world would be a much better place if he wasn't in it for so many reasons, this electric car bullshit not the least of them.
Look up John Cadogan - electric cars - YouTube for why they're the shittiest idea since humanity evolved.
"The man is a sociopath and the world would be a much better place if he wasn't in it for so many reasons"
He certainly is a sociopath, I can agree with you on that, but he is getting things done.
" this electric car bullshit not the least of them.
Look up John Cadogan - electric cars - YouTube for why they're the shittiest idea since humanity evolved."
Do you love breathing in diesel particles?
Do you love your economic prosperity being at the whim of OPEC members?
He certainly is a sociopath, I can agree with you on that, but he is getting things done.
Henry Ford's wife drove an electric car. They're nothing new. Neither are the challenges around widespread adoption.
Do you love your economic prosperity being at the whim of OPEC members?
Hell yes. Oil hit $20 today, but bounced back a little. Too bad that's not passed on to our energy costs, but they're busily rising to pay for Green scams.
On the plus side however, in 1968 a chap by the name of Paul Erlich wrote a book called 'The Population Bomb', which stated that the Earth was overpopulated, and by 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. Other fiction writers like David Attenborough liked this idea, and so helped spawn organisations like the "Optimum Population Trust". Both of course are now in the age range where they can do their bit, and mitgate the problem.
Musk meanwhile, has tweeted that he'll have a go at making ventilators for ICUs.. I mean how hard can that be?
Meanwhile, there's the economic challenge. Like Tesla's dubious finances and the impact of any prolonged recession.. Which is much the same as other businesses are facing, just with more zeros. Which is also a challenge for the US, ie job losses are already climbing fast, and it also has the problem of it's healthcare costs. Being put into an induced coma & on a ventilator isn't exactly a cheap option, which may perhaps force the US to take a closer look at it's healthcare system and inequality.
Ah yes, YouTube, that bastian of accurate reporting and fact checking.
Nothing wrong with electric cars that isn't worse with internal combustion - you heard it here first.
Blimey, the Musk haters are out in force today. Bunch of twats. He's just a bloke who runs a few companies. If you don't like the way he runs them, don't work for them. If you don't like his products, don't buy them. But in all other respects, haters and deniers, please just fuck off and self isolate, and that includes the internet.
".. He's just a bloke who runs a few companies...."
That managed to get away with calling a rescue diver a paedophile;
That was fined millions of dollars for making egregious comments about Tesla shares;
That has a large number of followers and should know that with that, comes a requirement to behave in a way that is generally not overtly odious.
I could go on but you get the gist.
"If you voluntarily don't come into work *because sensible*, you've volunteered to be sacked shortly afterwards."
Within all of Elon's ventures, you are expected to work at least 50hours/week. In some departments at SpaceX, managers make note of anybody not putting in at least 60.
Given the mass sackings in the past, Elon using the work "voluntary" is a code for "Hey buddy, this is a PR statement and if you don't all show up for work on time and injure yourselves building these cars, you will be out at the next great purging. See if I don't." The next Pink Slip parade is likely going to be soon after the 2Q financials are released. All of the billions Tesla says they have is massively offset by all of their debt. Using it to keep at status quo will just accelerate a downward spiral. I'm wondering how many angry dunning notices the A/P office is getting right now.
A big deterrent to the silicon valley billionaires I'm sure. The world can wait awhile for unnecessary luxury goods, and the Tesla showrooms will empty anyway as this thing reaches its peak. After it blows over, people who want one will resume buying them and Tesla can resume making them.
Now is most definitely not the time for "I'm so special" egotists to be striking blows for freedom by carrying on entirely in their own self interest.
If you were to get one of these fines, you'd want to fight it. Oh yeah, the courts are closed and only hearing cases involving people in custody. You would have to be arrested and put in jail before you'd be scheduled for a court appearance. Are the police departments going to load up their cells this way?
$1,000 is an intimate dinner out with their mistresses for many of these company directors. Not a huge deal.
Tesla doesn't have showrooms.
The San Francisco order is an ILLEGAL and UNCONSTITUTIONAL ORDER and CAN BE IGNORED !!!
She has NO mandate under California state law AND NO mandate UNDER any tenet of the U.S. Constitution to be giving ANY SUCH overly broad directives which restricts free movement by citizens!
The Mayor of San Francisco who outline this IS A TRAITOR to the tenets of the Constitution of the United States and MUST BE DEFIED WITH FORCE IF NECESSARY !!!
DO NOT GIVE UP ANY OF YOUR ***** RIGHTS ****** SO EASILY !!!
She is a TRAITOR and MUST BE DEFIED PERIOD !!!!!!!!
IGNORE HER ORDERS --- THEY ARE ILLEGAL AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL !!!!!
US-based rant here...
1) The CDC has NEVER published clean stats on flu deaths. They are always combined with another, related illness. If they aren't hiding anything, we do not have any real knowledge of what the usual mortality rate of the seasonal flu is.
2) Every year, the government "experts" go on TV & warn about how we "might" be looking at the Spanish flu this year--or perhaps next.
3) In 2009, we had a swine flu variant which was highly infectious, but with a mortality rate so low that the actual death rate was lower than most years. In response to this, WHO changed the definition of epidemic & pandemic so that they could say that 2009 was a pandemic.
You could say that given the above, I've become rather cynical when it comes to the flu-industrial complex. Let's look at what we have now...
4) A novel virus appears, it's mortality rate is higher than usual. How is it described? "Ten times as bad as the seasonal flu." Not "1%".
5) "Experts" go on TV, and show exponential growth rates. These are impossible, except in the very early stages, as our population is finite. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmental_models_in_epidemiology for more realistic models.)
6) We are warned to get supplies for two weeks, triggering panic purchasing.
7) "Experts" condemn people for buying face masks, saying, "it won't keep you from being infected" as if that it why we would wear masks. Then, they come out and say, "only sick people should wear them", AFTER admitting that, especially for the young and healthy, you can have the disease and never know it. If the masks are ineffective, why should sick people wear them? Since we now have proof that most infections are from people who are asymptomatic (which is the same for almost all airborne diseases), what is the basis for this?
And just in case the tin-foil hat crowd was not completely berserk:
8) State governors start decreeing that we no longer have freedom of association. (County level political conventions are being forbidden.) And that we are to isolate ourselves and await further instructions.
I have long held that we need to be able to declare states of emergencies to deal with severe health crises. I just don't see what we actually have as being to the point of shredding the First Amendment.
"If the masks are ineffective, why should sick people wear them?"
Because face masks are only good if you are sick ... to protect those around you from inadvertent contact with your spit/snot. They will not keep you from getting the virus, and in fact will probably make you more susceptible to it (especially kids!). Why? Watch someone wearing one of those masks. Count how many times they unconsciously fiddle about with it over the space of five minutes ... thus rubbing their filthy, germ-ridden hands all over their face.
You'll probably enjoy this opinion piece. https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/
His take: The data collection process for Covid-19 has been a more or less complete fiasco. The data at hand is so poor that it could describe anything from a new, not especially virulent, respiratory disease -- less severe than this year's seasonal flu -- to something comparable to the "Spanish flu" of a century ago that killed many millions of a much smaller human population.
Who is John Ioannidis? He is a Stanford professor and expert on medical statistics. who is widely known for his criticisms of reporting practices for medical research.
"the actual death rate was lower than most years. In response to this, WHO changed the definition of epidemic & pandemic so that they could say that 2009 was a pandemic."
An epidemic or pandemic is a measure of how infections something is and the amount spread it has. It has little to no bearing on how lethal it is.
Its very infectious because of the long period where you are asymptomatic but still infectious. Even if the mortality rate actually was 1% (in Italy, its currently 7.9%), then if you have widespread infection - lets say to the base point where you start getting herd immunity to a disease, 60%), you'd be looking at roughly 2 million dead in the US.
Of course, if you did get to those levels - around 200 million infected - then the death rate would be astronomically higher, because there is absolutely no way to treat that many people. If the number of people requiring hospitalisation exceeds the number of ventilators/staff available, then the mortality rate of the excess is going to be more like 100% - the reason they are hospitalised is because they require ventilators to stay alive.
If the number of people requiring hospitalisation exceeds the number of ventilators/staff available, then the mortality rate of the excess is going to be more like 100% - the reason they are hospitalised is because they require ventilators to stay alive.
That's where triage will come in. There's a big danger in extrapolation. So currently it's reported there are 222,000 confirmed infections and 9,000 dead, so running 4% mortality. But mortality rates are higher in immunosuppressed people, so the risk is skewed to that population, ie elderly and people with pre-existing conditions. Thus far, if you're young and healthy, you get the flu-like experience, so isolate and ride it out. Challenge there seems to be the rapid spread, so lots of people ill at the same time. For people hit harder, some may be treatable with a simple oxygen mask & tank and patients sent home.. But as you say, the big risk is the subset that will require more intensive treatment.
For situations like the Tesla factory, if you assume 10,000 staff and 4% mortality, that would mean 400 dead. But more likely several thousand with the flu-like symptoms. And I guess if Tesla offers medical insurance and their HR people have any access to employee health data, you could screen that to identify any high-risk staff that should isolate.. Which I guess could also lead to ethical and legal issues if you could screen, but don't.
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