back to article Boris celebrates taking back control of Brexit Britain's immigration – with unlimited immigration program

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced an unlimited immigration program just days after signing Blighty's agreement to withdraw from Europe. The new “Global Talent” program comprises a fast-tracked visa aimed specifically at scientists. Johnson hopes the scheme will help the UK become a “superpower” when it comes …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good, good.

    Unlimited immigration of high calibre engineers, scientists and doctors from around the world (specifically India) is what many I know voted for.

    Well done Boris and Priti for delivering on your promise.

    Thank you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good, good.

      You forgot to mention Joke. And the rest of Europe says nul points given the fact the Uk declined to offer any assurance the won't be kicked out at a moments notice.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Good, good.

        EU citizens in the UK will have no problem staying if that’s what they want to do. Once a deal with the EU is negotiated and signed it will likely include freedom of movement as part of the deal and it will be business as usual, thankfully.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: Good, good.

          Actually, the government decided last week it didn't want to guarantee such rights as it wants to be able to use them in negotiations.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            I think Werdsmith is simply anticipating the outcome of those negotiations or maybe of a few quiet adjustments that have to be made after all the headlines have been published. Adjustments can be made by surreptitious SIs.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Good, good.

            negotiations threats.

            The "Bull" is the most important part of "Bullingdon".

            1. NeilPost Bronze badge

              Re: Good, good.

              - Bull as in powerful animal??

              - Bull as in Bull in a china shop ??

              - Bull as in Bullshit ??

              2 and 3 feel on the money to me.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Good, good.

                I was originally thinking as in the military technique for cowing new recruits. But I agree with you.

        2. Ali Dodd
          Thumb Down

          Re: Good, good.

          "Once a deal with the EU is negotiated and signed it will likely include freedom of movement as part of the deal" not a chance, it is only for members of the EU and that is is the charter. The EU and quite a lot of experts have been saying this from day one. Without being a paying in member we will not get the same FOM rights as we have now. Period.

          I know several EU citizens who have already been forced to leave and others who have had to go through a heck of alot to get confirmation they can stay. Some haven't. Sorry you are wrong, the facts don't hold up.

          1. Wellyboot Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            >>>I know several EU citizens who have already been forced to leave<<<

            Can you give the reasons why these EU citizens were forced to leave?

            The current rules are that EU citizens have the right to residence & employment here just as UK citizens have that right in the rest of the EU. What happens in Jan 2021 is still up for negotiation.

            1. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              There have been around 100 cases where EU citizens were _ordered_ to leave because some of the people in the home office are malicious, idiots, or both. They had to get lawyers to get the order to leave revoked, but no apology. That was people applying for a scheme like the one described here, rejected, and ordered to leave without the idiot responsible noticing that they were EU citizens.

              1. NerryTutkins

                Re: Good, good.

                I have dealt with people at the home office dealing with immigration several times, and I can attest that if anywhere is in need of some high calibre individuals, it's the home office. Forget scientists, let's just find some people who can read and who have basic comprehension skills and replace the knuckle draggers in the home office as a first step.

              2. BebopWeBop Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                This. It happened to two people working with me, one of whose partner (an NHS surgeon) was ordered to leave. The "mistakes" were rectified with much expense. The joke going around was that the Home Office had release trial orders for practice or maybe through incompetence (as believable). The result - with many multinational couples was the establishment of a European R&D and direct sales group (70% of our business is with EU companies). Funnily enough, there were no problems in (a) getting some decent premises at an extremely good cost and (b) no shortage of people who wanted to be part of the first established team.

                1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  It happened to two people working with me, one of whose partner (an NHS surgeon) was ordered to leave.

                  Given that Brexit doesn't happen until Friday it's quite simply not possible that this sort of screwup is because of Brexit. No EU citizen can be ordered to leave before Friday, no matter what their status.

                  If the home office has been ordering people to leave it's because they have screwed up and not noticed that they were EU citizens, which isn't really the same thing (and entirely typical of the Home Office, I agree).

                  There are also people who screw-up themselves, like the French chef who's been in the UK for years but applied for permanent resident status, instead of settled status. He didn't provide the correct info for permanent residence, which until Brexit was rarely something that EU citizens would ever need to do, so his application was turned down. Big song and dance until the Home Office pointed out that he should have simply applied for settled status, which he then did and it was sorted straight away.

                  1. Zippy´s Sausage Factory

                    Re: Good, good.

                    Given that Brexit doesn't happen until Friday it's quite simply not possible that this sort of screwup is because of Brexit. No EU citizen can be ordered to leave before Friday, no matter what their status.

                    You've never worked in government, have you? The number of cases I've seen people trying to apply rules that no longer apply, or don't apply yet, is maddening. And don't get me started on tree preservation orders...

                  2. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Good, good.

                    Phil O'Sophical>> No EU citizen can be ordered to leave before Friday, no matter what their status.

                    This comment shows what a fantastic job Leave.EU et al did.

                    The UK has always been able to remove EU citizens.

                    France does it all the time (Recently for Brits who couldn't prove they could support themselves after trying to apply for a carte de sejour to secure their status.

                    The fact the Home Office never bothered and then said it was an EU problem is hilarious.

                    LOL

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Good, good.

                      Exactly. I live in another EU country and I had to prove that I either had sufficient savings or an income to support myself. Every EU country is entitled to make that kind of check.

                      As you say the Home Office never seemed to bother doing it.

                    2. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                      Re: Good, good.

                      Phil O'Sophical>> No EU citizen can be ordered to leave before Friday, no matter what their status.

                      Oh, that's true, of course, if they are in violation of some rules. The original post suggested that someone would be thrown out simply for being an EU citizen who had apparently overstayed their welcome, which isn't the case. If there are some other reasons why they can't stay then that is still unrelated to Brexit.

                      This comment shows what a fantastic job Leave.EU et al did.

                      Personally I don't consider immigration to be an issue for Brexit at all. Most of the anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK gets directed toward Asian and Caribbean immigrants, where EU membership is largely irrelevant. Brexit is fundamentally a political and economic issue, not an immigration one. The UK is still a far more tolerant country towards immigrants than, say, France or Germany, despite the impression given by the Daily Fail.

                      France does it all the time (Recently for Brits who couldn't prove they could support themselves after trying to apply for a carte de sejour to secure their status.

                      A carte de sejour doesn't secure status. Rather the reverse, it's proof that you have secure status as an EU citizen and largely fulfils the place held by an ID card for a French citizen. It's supposed to be renewed every 10 years anyway.

                      Post Brexit, holders of cartes de sejour will have 18 months or so to apply for settled status, and will get a different card, for residents.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Good, good.

                        "A carte de sejour doesn't secure status. Rather the reverse, it's proof that you have secure status as an EU citizen and largely fulfils the place held by an ID card for a French citizen."

                        I'm largely agreeing with that. The government website also explicitly states that it is not needed.

                        It's for non-EU citizens that they're really useful.

                        "It's supposed to be renewed every 10 years anyway."

                        Note quite. There are /plenty/ of different kinds of carte de séjour, and those for EU citizens coming to France to work are limited to the duration of the contract + 6 months, to a maximum of 5 years. It doesn't seem worth the bother (which can be rather huge, depending on the préfecture) unless one really wants a French ID.

                        https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/N110

                        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                          Re: Good, good.

                          those for EU citizens coming to France to work are limited to the duration of the contract + 6 months, to a maximum of 5 years.

                          Only for the first one, after that they're valid for 10 years and supposed to be renewed then (despite being marked "validite permanent").

                      2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                        Re: Good, good.

                        Immigration was a huge brexit issue. Sure, you know that we had powers to remove EU citizens, and you know that China, India, and Turkey aren't in the EU, but for many pdople, immigration was the main issue. "leave" banged on about it all the time. People have been told "can't wait for you to fuck off when we leave the EU". Racism has increased, and all the uniformed racist bigots voted to get rid of foreigners.

                        When the fact that leaving the EU will hardly make a difference finally dawns on them, it will be most pleasurable to see.

                        And now this latest announcement being spun as something we can now do outside the EU, when of course we could have done it any time..

                        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                          Re: Good, good.

                          immigration was the main issue. "leave" banged on about it all the time.

                          Remain made just as much fuss with Project Fear, for example that all the London EU businesses and financial houses would decamp to Paris and the economcy would collapse, something where even the IMF disagrees.

                          Both sides played to prejudices where they could to squeeze every last vote out, it's politics. No doubt Brexit will be blamed for everything bad for the next 10 years, just as the EU was blamed for the last 25. Most of us will just get on with making it work.

                      3. MachDiamond Silver badge
                        Facepalm

                        Re: Good, good.

                        I just read an article today on BBC about a Briton in France that was headed for problems as he was self-employed. Deeper into the article, it tells that he has some children from a previous marriage and a child with his girlfriend who also has another child from a previous relationship. It had me shaking my head. Why didn't this guy marry the French lady he fathered a child with? They live together. All of the kids are reported to have been born in France. You'd think that as the spouse of native born French citizen, it wouldn't be such a big thing.

                        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                          Re: Good, good.

                          that was headed for problems as he was self-employed

                          Not headed for problems at all. His request to become a French citizen was turned down, he'll still be able to stay as a settled person under the agreement. He can re-apply for citizenship in a couple of years.

                        2. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Good, good.

                          You'd think, wouldn't you? But as a Brit with a German wife, living in the UK, I can attest that it is a big thing. Even having managed settled status (possibly by virtue of applying early on when it still cost £60 and had to be seen to be working), life is not as simple as it was. Bank accounts, NHS, driving, mortgages, all are proving to be more awkward and that's before any changes have officially kicked in. Part of the problem (ok the main part of the problem) is the lack of a document proving settled status. Despite the Government saying the online system is better, no-one actually believes or trusts it. If it was that good, maybe it would be good enough to replace a passport or driving licence (the main forms of ID accepted in Britain) and of course, non-EU citizens already get a proper document. Only EU citizens are left with the onus of proof on them. Just the tip of a deliberately hostile (but deniable) environment...

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Re: Good, good.

                            >But as a Brit with a German wife, living in the UK, I can attest that it is a big thing.

                            Whilst you are sorting things out make sure you consider your wife's (and family) circumstances if you were to drop dead.

                            Just been through these fun and games with a relative, she can now continue to live in the home she and her ex-husband brought and lived in for many decades and continue to receive the pensions she was receiving prior to his death...

                            1. Kiwi Silver badge
                              Unhappy

                              Re: Good, good.

                              Whilst you are sorting things out make sure you consider your wife's (and family) circumstances if you were to drop dead.

                              That's not limited to the UK. From news reports around these parts I suspect Australia could be quite nasty in that regard (especially if your skin or hair was a shade too dark or you were from a not-currently-trendy country). I also suspect NZ has had its moments with people who've been here for a long time and lost a spouse. Or gotten sick despite earning well and paying in the higher tax brackets. Something we should be quite ashamed of, to be kicking people out because they're not currently healthy enough regardless of anything else in their lives.

                      4. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Good, good.

                        Phil O'Sophical>> Oh, that's true, of course, if they are in violation of some rules. The original post suggested that someone would be thrown out simply for being an EU citizen who had apparently overstayed their welcome...

                        Here you go, Phil:

                        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51280617

                        I guess many Brexiters will be cheering.

                        "Go back to where you came from!"

                        1 down 1.2 Million to go!

                        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
                          FAIL

                          Re: Good, good.

                          Here you go, Phil:

                          https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51280617

                          Classic case in point. As the article clearly says, right at the top, "rejected his application for citizenship". Note citizenship, not settled status.

                          Granting citizenship to someone is something that many countries, including France, take seriously, requiring proof of integration and that you won't be a burden on the state. He couldn't meet the economic criteria for citizenship.

                          The article goes on to say "Mr Lawrence will still be able to stay as a resident and does not risk being deported."

                          So, what is your point?

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Re: Good, good.

                            Phil O'Sophical>So, what is your point?

                            As a foreigner from a 3rd non-EU country (as of next year) who has unfortunately demonstrated can't support himself, can be asked to leave at any time.

                            THEM'S THE RULES! (In France)

                            There are more of these cases cropping up every day now.

                            There coming home, they're coming home, they're coming, Brits are coming home ....

                            If I was him I'd make sure to max out my UK benefits on arrival.

                        2. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Good, good.

                          > 1 down 1.2 Million to go!

                          If you'd actually read the article you'd linked to instead of posting based on a knee-kerk reaction to the first part, you'd have seen that he's in no danger of being asked to leave. 1.2 Million still around!

                      5. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Good, good.

                        Do you forget so soon that the leave.eu message was that brown refuges were coming in from Syria and the evil EU was forcing us to be decent human beings and take them in....

                        1. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Good, good.

                          Percentage-wise the UK accepts more refugee asylum-seeker requests than anyone in the EU except Germany. We are not an intolerant country.

                          1. Anonymous Coward
                            Anonymous Coward

                            Re: Good, good.

                            >Percentage-wise the UK accepts more refugee asylum-seeker requests than anyone in the EU except Germany.

                            Brexit is done.

                            You can stop the lies now.

                            1. Anonymous Coward
                              Anonymous Coward

                              Re: Good, good.

                              Brexit is done.

                              You can stop the lies now.

                              No lies, but the figures have shifted slightly since I last looked. For 2018 the UK was in 3rd place in terms of acceptance of asylum requests at 58%, just behind the Netherlands (60%) and Finland (69%). Germany is now 6th, at 43%. The EU average is 38%.

                              All figures from the EU website https://ec.europa.eu/

                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                Anonymous Coward

                                Re: Good, good.

                                https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Number_of_(non-EU)_asylum_seekers_in_the_EU_and_EFTA_Member_States,_2017_and_2018_(thousands_of_first_time_applicants)_YB19.png

                                1. Anonymous Coward
                                  Anonymous Coward

                                  Re: Good, good.

                                  That graph shows the total numbers of asylum seekers in each EU country. Try this one for the percentages of requests granted, from the same source.

                                  1. Anonymous Coward
                                    Anonymous Coward

                                    Re: Good, good.

                                    Ah, I see what you did there!

                                    So if the uk were to accept 5out of 5 requests and got a perfect 100% rating then it is more tolerant than a country hosting 10,000s of refugees?

                                    Gotcha!

                                    My mistake. Sorry.

                                    1. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Good, good.

                                      So if the uk were to accept 5out of 5 requests and got a perfect 100% rating then it is more tolerant than a country hosting 10,000s of refugees?

                                      Who mentioned "hosting", your figures are for "applicants".

                                      If the UK were to accept 5 out of 5 requests, and that other country were to accept 5 out of 10,000, then yes, obviously the UK would be more tolerant.

                                      My mistake. Sorry.

                                      Apology accepted :)

                    3. tfb Silver badge
                      Black Helicopters

                      Re: Good, good.

                      The fact the Home Office never bothered and then said it was an EU problem is hilarious.

                      Now, remember the rules: it is always the EU's fault: it is now and it always has been. When we leave the EU it will still be the EU's fault. Before it was the EU's fault it was the Germans' fault. It is still the Germans' fault, it always has been the Germans' fault. It is liberal elitist's fault. It is China's fault, it is London's fault it is Scotland's fault it Ireland's fault it is Irish people living in London's fault it is dusky foreign EU German Londons living in France's fault it is never never our fault no never I tell you its those foreign people I tell you yes some of them can't even speak English coming over here and cleaning our loos for us how dare they how dare they send them back put them in a camp yes that's what we need some nice camps.

                  3. anothercynic Silver badge

                    Re: Good, good.

                    No EU citizen can be ordered to leave before Friday, no matter what their status.

                    Actually, technically it is possible. And it's that that had many asking "if this is all about keeping people out, why don't you apply the Schengen rules as described instead of going the whole hog".

                    Tony Blair opted *not* to implement the rules (which other countries also apply when applying for state benefits etc) when he came to office in the nineties. They were successfully used to restrict the panicked "OMG we're going to be overrun by the Romanian and Bulgarian hordes!" never-happened mass migration of said Romanians and Bulgarians post-EU-accession, and they could've been applied to everyone else in the EU. Except... well... we're now leaving, so...

                    1. magicaces

                      Re: Good, good.

                      This is so true and I'd forgotten that. Everyone forgets that yes we are soon not to be part of the EU but that actually we had negotiated all sorts of different rules for ourselves including the fact we could deport EU nationals. We actually had a pretty decent deal that we'd negotiated over the past few decades.

                      We weren't under all the EU stipulations yet had all the benefits. Funny too think that now.

              3. Cynic_999 Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                Why did they apply for something they did not need?

              4. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Good, good.

                "without the idiot responsible noticing that they were EU citizens"

                It's inconceivable that they didn't realise they were EU citizens. The Settled Status is specifically for EU citizens (and their spouses/kids), not for anyone else. Of course that doesn't mean you couldn't be right... from past experience I can say that Home Office staff leaves a lot to be desired.

            2. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              “Can you give the reasons why these EU citizens were forced to leave?“

              Not forced to leave. Ordered to leave, and forced to pay out for a lawyer to sort it out.

            3. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              So people spent time and energy to build up a life in the UK, paid taxes, contributed to the economy (yep even the polish plumber is contributing, it's not just the scientists Boris is trying to get in), then het told to ask pretty please to not be kicked out.

              If ai were in thay position, I would definitely tell Boris to f-off and move to mainland Europe where I don't have these issues

              1. anothercynic Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                Except why should they uproot their entire family (who have friends, other family, connections, history, work, careers, networks here) just to make a segment of society happy? That said, if I was given the option, yeah I would move, mostly because I don't have the strong network here (despite being a Brit) that others (non-Brit EU citizens) have.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Good, good.

                  "Except why should they uproot their entire family (who have friends, other family, connections, history, work, careers, networks here) just to make a segment of society happy?"

                  err because more people voted for it than did not? Democracy - lets do away with it by crying about the result.

                  1. arctic_haze

                    Re: Good, good.

                    Democracy? Except for Scotland where 2/3 voters opted to stay.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Good, good.

                      Democracy? Except for Scotland where 2/3 voters opted to stay.

                      In 2014 55% of Scots voted to remain in the UK, hasn't stopped the SNP banging on about having another referendum. Some people only want democracy when they get the result they want.

                      1. Felonmarmer

                        Re: Good, good.

                        You do know, of course, that the Scots only voted to stay in the UK in 2014 so they could stay in the EU?

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Good, good.

                          @Felonmarmer

                          "You do know, of course, that the Scots only voted to stay in the UK in 2014 so they could stay in the EU?"

                          And they got to participate in the referendum for remain/leave. Leaving the UK would leave them out of the EU anyway and still now leaving the UK will leave them out of the EU. It is amusing for a Scot to vote independence to desire to hand the country over to a political union. But then the EU would have to put up with the forever whining (if they broke all of their rules to somehow accept another dependent country).

                      2. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: Some people only want democracy when they get the result they want.

                        And some people think democracy stops once they've got the answer they wanted.

                        1. codejunky Silver badge

                          Re: Some people only want democracy when they get the result they want.

                          @AC

                          "And some people think democracy stops once they've got the answer they wanted."

                          No kidding. How hard was it to get a referendum to leave the EU? Now there is nothing but demands for more referendums until they get the answer they want.

                      3. anothercynic Silver badge

                        Re: Good, good.

                        55% of Scots voted to stay in because it meant Scotland stayed in the EU. After the referendum, everything changed because the Scots understand the benefits of the EU. The Northern Irish also understand the benefits of the EU (not least because it guarantees peace in N.I. thanks to the GFA). The Ingerlish don't, despite having been the recipients of much of what the EU has to offer, *especially* the agricultural sector with seasonal workers who are now, surprise surprise, hard to come by to actually harvest what's been grown! The Welsh... well... they also voted to leave for some reason.

                        1. Martin-73 Silver badge

                          Re: Good, good.

                          Actually the majority of the inngerlish did want to remain... it's just that nobody under 18 was allowed to vote, and nobody was forced to educate themselves before voting.

                          I as an ashamed english person (doesn't deserve capitals) am glad that the UK is now done for.

                          They won, let them own it.

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Good, good.

                            @Martin-73

                            "Actually the majority of the inngerlish did want to remain... it's just that nobody under 18 was allowed to vote, and nobody was forced to educate themselves before voting."

                            The normal voting rules of 18+ were applied. How young should they have been? Maybe school kids? (a Welsh MP went to a school to talk to young kids about their opinion of something they cannot comprehend). And we dont force people into re-education camps, that doesnt have a good history associated with it.

                            "I as an ashamed english person (doesn't deserve capitals) am glad that the UK is now done for."

                            You should be ashamed if your glad your country is done for. What a horrible thing to hope for your country. I assume you are so upset you are moving to your beloved utopia?

                            1. Martin-73 Silver badge

                              Re: Good, good.

                              Ah my country isn't done for. My country is the EU.

                              The little england is done for. And i have popcorn

                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: Good, good.

                                @Martin-73

                                "Ah my country isn't done for. My country is the EU."

                                Nothing wrong with that. I aint a fan of the EU either *although I have nothing against the member countries

                                "The little england is done for. And i have popcorn"

                                Wishing harm on your neighbour, well thats up to you. I hope the EU can finally start to recover from the recession in 2008 because it is dragging on global trade. Unlike little UK which bounced out of the recession, has full employment, growth, wages increasing and every opportunity to apply our competitive advantage the EU fears we will use.

                            2. Lotaresco Silver badge

                              Re: Good, good.

                              "I assume you are so upset you are moving to your beloved utopia?"

                              He can't. You voted to end free movement and therefore you prevented British subjects from permanently re-locating to a country within the EU unless they go through a lengthy process of application for residency then citizenship.

                              It's as if those who voted for Brexit didn't know what they voted for.

                              1. codejunky Silver badge

                                Re: Good, good.

                                @Lotaresco

                                "He can't. You voted to end free movement and therefore you prevented British subjects from permanently re-locating to a country within the EU unless they go through a lengthy process of application for residency then citizenship."

                                Wait a minute are you calling this guy a moron? Knowing the deadline is coming (for 3 freaking years!!!!) where freedom of movement stands. I am not sure how it currently stands as we are transitioning out but the option has been there for 3 years to get his ass into the utopia he loves.

                          2. Kiwi Silver badge

                            Re: Good, good.

                            I as an ashamed english person (doesn't deserve capitals) am glad that the UK is now done for.

                            Did you spend time trying to fill the education gap? Did you hunt for people who could not get to the polls and offer to take them? Did you watch the news reports in the preceeding weeks/days, see that maybe it was going to be close, and encourage people to get out and vote as when it is close then yes, every vote counts?

                            If you did any of these, you have no reason to be ashamed. Go out and make the country the best you can regardless.

                            If you didn't do any of the above then yes, no matter the outcome you should be ashamed of yourself. But still, you can redeem yourself. Go out and do the best you can to improve the country regardless of your actions.

                            If we give up (and reading certain posters here or knowing some of the people/politicians in my own land, it is tempting sometimes!) then we are done. But if each of us continues doing what we can to improve things then that is what we will get - things will improve. We cannot do it by one big effort resting on one or two people's shoulders, but it can be done by lots of little efforts.

                            Yours is the nation that won the Battle of Britain against overwhelming odds, yet look at what you are today. Feel that shame, and use it. Don't make excuses, make something of your nation.

                  2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                    Re: Good, good.

                    Even Rees-Mogg admitted he didn't want a second referendum because the majority now want to remain.

                    A 3 year old campaign, illegally funded, and based on lies.... Democracy when it suits you, eh?

                    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

                      Re: Good, good.

                      The run up to the referendum was filled with predictions of either sunny picnics with jam scones & lemonade (leave) or the four horsemen going on immediate tour (remain) - All of it complete BS.

                      Then the British public voted.

                      Our elected politicians failed at that point, what we needed in '16 was a sensible debate to hammer out how the country was going to move forward, but instead of a serious debate we've had three years of 'agincourt salute & walk away from europe' -V- 'overturn, ignore or rerun because...'

                      The democratic principle is simple - pose question - debate - vote - implement result. Anything else isn't democracy.

                  3. Graham Cobb

                    Re: Good, good.

                    Are you seriously proposing that anything that you can get 50%+1 voters to vote for should be implemented and would be right?

                    How about "We are overcrowded. Let's cancel British citizenship for anyone who has ever post as an AC and deport them. If no one else will take them, we will build a big camp on Snowden and put them there".

                    If I could get 50% of people who vote to vote for it it would be OK?

                    Mob rule is not democracy.

                    1. Wellyboot Silver badge

                      Re: Good, good.

                      >>>If I could get 50% of people who vote to vote for it it would be OK?<<<

                      No it might not be right or even ok to many, but can you come up with a way that implements any split decision and avoids upsetting the minority1 (50%-1) to some extent when it is imposed on them? We allow MPs to be elected on merely the +1 (no need for 50%).

                      >>>Mob rule is not democracy<<< No, but democracy IS mob rule and it has its good points:

                      (1) It can force a peaceful change of leadership, avoiding having to repaint lampposts, fill in the holes in walls, wash the streets etc.

                      (2) It gives a simple view of the weighting for/against any decision > informing future policies.

                      (3) It creates the need for debate before a decision.

                      1 Only those taking part count, if you have an opinion & don't vote then don't blame the outcome on anyone else. Many died to obtain and then maintain the right to the truly free votes we get.

                      1. Graham Cobb

                        Re: Good, good.

                        No it might not be right or even ok to many, but can you come up with a way that implements any split decision and avoids upsetting the minority1 (50%-1) to some extent when it is imposed on them?

                        Er, yes... More analysis, research and discussion and then a vote on a more detailed proposal. Also, statesmanship and thoughtfulness, not slogans and over-simplifications.

                        The closeness of the vote itself simply invalidates it either way. The next step is someone has to create a new proposal that can be viewed as a sensible compromise and attract a substantial majority to agree that it is fair.

                        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

                          Re: Good, good.

                          The closeness of the vote itself simply invalidates it either way.

                          Would that also apply to the French vote to create the EU (50.8%), or the first Danish vote not to create it (50.7%)?

                          If we applied a rule that approval needs, say, 66% in favour on a, say, 80% turnout, I don't think any political decisions would ever be taken.

                          1. Kiwi Silver badge
                            Pint

                            Re: Good, good.

                            If we applied a rule that approval needs, say, 66% in favour on a, say, 80% turnout, I don't think any political decisions would ever be taken.

                            Plus those sorts of things can actually go against the majority view. With your example, lets say there's a 79.9999% turnout with 100% voting for something - but because it wasn't a full 80% the approval cannot be met.

                            IIRC at the time of the Brexit polls, we had people saying it should be a 75% majority of all voters for it to be approved. Again, it 74.999% of voters voted "leave" and one single voter voted "remain", then according to these people democracy would be served by that one person getting their wish while 74.999% of the population did not.

                            (I'm neither for nor against, but as Phil O'Sophical said if there I'd be doing what I can to make it work - for my family, my community and of course my self)

                            1. This post has been deleted by its author

                            2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

                              Re: Good, good.

                              The big problem is that people are more likely to vote for a change. In other words, those who are happy with the ways things are are less likely to vote to keep them the same.

                              It's a tricky subject.

                              (Though it's ironic the number of times I've heard brexitters say that Scotland voted to remain in the UK, when the percentage of the vote was the same (52% leave, 48% remain))

                              The UK government set a minimum threshold on the Scotish referendum. They didn't on the brexit referendum because it was clearly put into law as an advisory referendum.

                              https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2018/03/23/eu-referendum-flawced/

            4. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Good, good.

              >Can you give the reasons why these EU citizens were forced to leave?

              Continuity of service and pension aggregation is a big one, but many of my EU colleagues decided to return long before it became obvious that this wouldn't continue and the incompetently designed EU Settlement Scheme was another 'Windrush' style debacle in the making.

              I'd say it was actually the rhetoric in print media which has had the biggest impact - things like higher education for kids, failing NHS, freedom of movement for family members etc also came for more that a few.

            5. teknopaul Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              "the reasons why these EU citizens were forced to leave"

              Because uncertainty is more scary than a known danger.

              Thats why im leaving the UK for good.

              1. Kiwi Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                Because uncertainty is more scary than a known danger.

                I understand your position, however...

                Uncertainty is perhaps one of the most irrational fears we humans allow ourselves to be tricked into fearing. Or rather, the reactions we take to it.

                I'm a motorcyclist, and at many intersections there's an uncertainty about whether or not another driver has seen me, or correctly judged my speed and intentions. At low speed a crash means damage to me and my bike, at higher speeds it means bigger damage - perhaps life changing. I still ride because I enjoy it and I take actions to minimise the risks.

                I changed career a few years back , from technical sometimes challenging work to something many consider menial. I could see my old industry dying back considerably but would I survive the new role? Yes, it's worth it, and more stimulating than I expected. I could've let the fear of the unknown stop me, and missed all this.

                Not long back we had a change of government. I thought it'd be a great thing, being largely a leftie. But I think our current government isn't exactly that great (unless you like knee-jerk reactionary laws instead of considering the issue and acting appropriately, and undoing what my grandfather's fought to achieve). I'm still doing what I can to make this place better for those I love and those who follow.

                I have some mind-fuckingly scary stuff coming up and perhaps this year will be making financial decisions that will change my life and the life of several others. A big opportunity looms on my horizon - a chance to make big changes for the better for several - or screw things up royally and ruin something that is a gift; a chance to serve in a way I've been begging God to let me do for years.

                I also live in Lower Hutt. We have several major fault lines running through the valley a couple of KM from where I live. At any second one of those could rupture, and I may not survive the experience. Or I may live but many of those I know may not, or may loose homes. I still get shivers when I think of the Civil Defence sirens being sounded in anger early AM on the 14th Nov 2016. The families who fled their homes in terror seeking solace in my little cul-de-sac, the street blocked with cars as people spent the rest of the night in them or in whatever shelter we could provide.. And the weeks of aftershocks? Even for someone like me they played on the nerves. I know others had it much worse. They've only just started rebuilding the local picture theatre, and other buildings are still waiting to be demolished I believe.

                Maybe I'll have a stroke before I get to send this message. Or an aneurysm. Or the cat will decide he's so sick of me he chokes me with his tail..

                Where I live and how I live I face lots of uncertainty. I don't really see a need to fear it though. Shit's gonna happen. If you can, get up, dust yourself off, move on and recover. If you can't, well it ain't worth worrying about it then is it?

                Probably should've just posted that French soldier's poem instead of all this waffle...

                "Well, there is either a war, or there is not a war;

                if there is not a war, why there is no need to worry.

                If there is a war, then you are either mobilized or not mobilized ;

                if not mobilized there is no need to worry.

                If you are mobilized, well, you are sent to the Front or not sent to the

                Front;

                if you are not sent to the Front, there is no need to worry.

                If you are sent to the Front, then you are either in a safe position or in an

                exposed position;

                if you are in a safe position, there is no need to worry.

                If you are in an exposed position, then you are either wounded or not wounded;

                if not wounded there is no need to worry.

                If you are wounded, then you either die or you recover; if you recover, there is no need to

                worry.

                If you die — You Can't Worry."

          2. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            Why do people write the word "period" ? Weird. It's even worse and more stupid than writing "end of".

            Anyway, FOM as part of a negotiation is something that would give EU citizens FOM to come to the UK in exchange for FOM of movement for UK citizens in EU. If that's what the EU wants then that's what they will get because as has already been plainly shown, in negotiations the UK has a very very weak hand.

            And @Charlie Clark "the government has decided" ? Have you not been watching the last three years? Anything the government says or decides has to be taken with a pinch of salt because they change at will. EU negotiators don't believe a word of any amateur bluff.

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              Anything the government says or decides has to be taken with a pinch of salt because thy change at will.

              Sure, but it put this particular decision into law.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                So they made a law. They can make another law.

                1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  "They can make another law."

                  Or use an SI via some innocuous-sounding enabling act. It won't attract the same embarrassing attention.

                2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  They can, but this is the official and legal position adopted before negotiations with the EU on trade start.

                3. voster

                  Re: Good, good.

                  "So they made a law. They can make another law."

                  That's true, but incredibly counter-productive. Variations in immigration laws increase bureaucracy and friction in the process. As things stand, we already have to navigate various bits of conditionals (e.g. if you entered on so-and-so visa before 1993, you have different rules etc.) but owing to the general stability of the rules over years, this is not too onerous.

                  Constantly changing the laws will cause friction and frankly, turn people off moving here, thus attracting fewer talent. It's therefore vital to get as much certainty as possible on policy and stick to its principles as long as you can.

              2. Teiwaz Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                Sure, but it put this particular decision into law.

                Quite a lot has been put into law in this country the last ten or so years that was later found to be illegal, immoral or unworkable, sometimes all three.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Good, good.

                  Like ever increasing proportions of the "extreme pornography" law, pushed by one bereaved person (and found receptive ears in Camerooooons puritan minded mob (see involvement of Christian group "The Mother's Union" led by a man no less....no I don't quite get that either, shouldn't they change it to "parent's union"?), who didn't want to accept the potential this *might* have been consensual sex gone badly wrong (one of her daughter's friends had stated that Jane Longhurst had confided in her about her experiences with breathplay) and relied on the "innocent morally pure white girl who would never do nasty vile things like that"

                  Perhaps Coutts was guilty (its quite possible), but then again Barry George was convicted of the murder of Jill Dando and similar allegations were levelled about him and how he was the guilty party without a shadow of a doubt....until he was cleared at a retrial years later....which makes you wonder if "we need to protect the dead girls honour, her mother is distraught, make sure coutts gets locked up, make sure any evidence that might prove he's innocent gets mislaid, a good commendation coming for all of us" came into play.....

                  1. Kiwi Silver badge
                    Gimp

                    Re: Good, good.

                    .which makes you wonder if "we need to protect the dead girls honour, her mother is distraught, make sure coutts gets locked up, make sure any evidence that might prove he's innocent gets mislaid

                    I truly find that sort of stuff to be disgusting beyond belief.

                    The media does not need to know all the details of a case. They can be ordered from the court room or given a gagging order (and lets give these things some teeth as well, make sure no one wants to risk breaking one!)

                    The family and friends of the victim do not need to know all the details of the case, or of what their loved one got up to in the wee hours - they can be given the option to leave the court room as well.

                    But the judge and/or jury - those who are deciding the guilt or innocence? They need to have all the information possible. If you're saying my death was accidental, and the prosecution is saying you deliberately strangled me, then you need to be able to say "yes, that's what he was in to, we did it often!"

                    It does not matter who or what the victim is or was, or what their shame their family might feel about their actions when it comes to a matter of judging innocence or guilt. If someone dies during sex as a result of something risky, and it turns out that they were into this, then the defence should be able to present it.

                    For a trial to be fair, all the evidence must be available.

            2. Dan 55 Silver badge
              Boffin

              Re: Good, good.

              There will be no FOM as we know it for British citizens in the EU. As of next week their residency is locked to their current country and trans-border work becomes a horrendous pain in the arse. Any new post-Brexit British arrivals will now be treated in the same way as extra-EU nationals. Any pre-Brexit British residents will be treated as post-Brexit British arrivals if they up sticks and move to another EU country.

              Any changes in the direction of improving FOM will not be as good as what British citizens in the EU have this week. EU/British citizen rights were decided in the withdrawal agreement, not the trade agreement. The trade agreement is about trade. This is as good as it gets as the British government is not interested in fighting for British citizens' rights in the EU as that requires reciprocity for EU citizens in the UK. If you believe otherwise, I hear Boris has a bridge he wants to sell you.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                @Dan 55 I would bet a lot of money that there will be some kind of FOM at the end of negotiation.

                By the way, McCulloch's purchase of London Bridge (or the facing stones thereof) for Lake Havasu City turned out to be very very astute and beneficial to Lake Havasu City. And still is. A very smart guy who knew exactly what he was doing. So people trying to sound supercilious by using that metaphor, just look super silly.

                1. james_smith Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  When it comes to Boris and bridges, it's not the old London Bridge that you need to worry about:

                  Failed London Garden Bridge project cost £53m

                  1. NerryTutkins

                    Re: Good, good.

                    Didn't he also propose spending even more money on building a bridge from the UK to Northern Ireland? When it comes to spunking money up the wall, bridges are definitely his thing.

                    1. Zippy´s Sausage Factory
                      Joke

                      Re: Good, good.

                      Surprised he hasn't suggested building a bridge to Hawaii yet.

                      Oh wait, that was a different hairy blonde politician wasn't it... What is this, a crossover episode?

                      1. zippygiraffe
                        Coat

                        Re: Good, good.

                        Boris is building bridges to Huawei instead

                    2. james_smith Silver badge

                      Re: Good, good.

                      Boris wouldn't use a vulgar, plebian word like "spunking". Spaffing is more his thing.

                    3. John Jennings Bronze badge

                      Re: Good, good.

                      That was to keep the Democratic Unionists on board while they held some power.

                      It is one of the stupidist ideas ever - perhaps partly why the DUP were so enamored with the idea.

                    4. CountCadaver Bronze badge

                      Re: Good, good.

                      I'm not a Boris fan BUT its not that crackers an idea, the distance is as short as 13.15 miles or for a better route between Port Patrick on the GB side and just east of Bangor on the NI side your talking 21.33 miles / 34.3Km, which is a long bridge by UK standards, but not worldwide for example the Thai's have a 55Km road bridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bang_Na_Expressway) and the Chinese a 169Km / 105 mile rail bridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danyang%E2%80%93Kunshan_Grand_Bridge) .

                      Why do it? For starters - Would boost Northern Irelands economy massively (cost of delivery to NI is much higher than to mainland uk addresses due to ferry costs and takes longer if they deliver at all), cutting cost of transporting goods and materials to and from GB, a better economy keeps people out of crime and trouble...devil making work for idle hands and all...if you ran a rail line as part of the bridge structure then there's a sustainable transport win there, that or we could dig a tunnel....the Channel Tunnel isn't much longer or run an artificial tunnel on top of the seabed...Spending on infrastructure benefits the economy both from the employment the project creates over a number of years directly but also indirectly through suppliers, caterers, accomodation providers, access road improvements, rail line improvements and then there's the lasting effect from the better transport links (places with bad transport links rapidly become backwaters as companies and people relocate)

                      Our forebears did things far more adventurous for the comparative technology they had, for example most of Brunel's work would never have been approved today "waste of money" "pipedream" "too difficult" etc etc....I could see a Scotland to NI bridge being something that Brunel would have relished getting his teeth into...

                      1. Ken 16 Silver badge

                        Re: Good, good.

                        Run a web search for "Beaufort's Dyke" to understand some of the technical, environmental and political difficulties in bridging that relatively short distance.

                      2. Wellyboot Silver badge

                        Re: Good, good.

                        A tunnel might not be a good idea, there's quite a few fault lines crossing the sea but a bridge to Belfast is almost easy and Dublin/Anglesey is feasible if the Irish want to stump up half the cash.

                      3. CommanderGalaxian
                        Thumb Down

                        Re: Good, good.

                        No, a bridge to NI is not a good idea - for one of the same reasons that HS2 is a bad reason - there's zillions of other things that urgently need doing and would generate a far better Return On Investment.

                        And good luck with high volumes of traffic trying to access a bridge via a glorified B road.

                        1. ShadowDragon8685

                          Re: Good, good.

                          Don't forget that political unity is a form of return on investment.

                          Don't make the mistake of being Currency Maximizer.

                        2. Anonymous Coward
                          Anonymous Coward

                          Re: Good, good.

                          The Irish government has proposed jointly funding improved cross border bus services. That would enable travel for more people than a bridge.

                2. Dan 55 Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  I think we all know Johnson has form when it comes to super silly bridges, as well as the Garden Bridge he's talked about Scotland-N. Ireland and England-France.

                  Do you seriously think FOM for EU citizens to carry on coming to the UK is politically sustainable after the past four years? That will be the EU's price for British citizens to have FOM in the EU. It won't happen.

                3. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge
                  Thumb Down

                  Re: Good, good.

                  McCulloch's purchase of London Bridge (or the facing stones thereof) for Lake Havasu City turned out to be very very astute

                  The term "I have a bridge to sell you" has absolutely nothing to do with McCulloch & London Bridge. It refers to a conman called George C Parker in New York who repeatedly sold the Brooklyn Bridge (which he didn't own, of course) to gullible investors back in the 1920s.

              2. Ken 16 Silver badge
                Thumb Up

                Re: Good, good.

                Yes! That's what you voted for and that's why I took my Irish ass out of the UK and into mainland Europe to take the cross border jobs that the British don't want anymore.

              3. BebopWeBop Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                Is that a virtual bridge?

              4. Zippy´s Sausage Factory

                Re: Good, good.

                FOM applies until the end of the transition period, so it should be around until the end of the year.

                1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  In the EU, as of Brexit Day, new British residency applicants get steered to the country's extra-EU residency rules (demonstrate income, etc...).

                  The transition period is intended to transition pre-Brexit residents over into whatever regime each country has set up for already-resident pre-Brexit Brits (most probably like extra-EU residency without the residency requirements and with a few extra bells and whistles).

                  Source

              5. Mad Dave

                Re: Good, good.

                >improving FOM will not be as good as what British citizens in the EU have this week

                You still do not understand why we voted to remove FoM. I'll give you a hint, it's not because we're bothered about who can leave the UK.

                1. sabroni Silver badge

                  Re: You still do not understand why we voted to remove FoM.

                  I do! Stupidity and racism!!

                  1. phuzz Silver badge

                    Re: You still do not understand why we voted to remove FoM.

                    Hey now, it's not racism.

                    Sorry, I mistyped, I meant, it's not just racism. There's xenophobia too!

                2. Dan 55 Silver badge
                  Facepalm

                  Re: Good, good.

                  It's like Bruce Lee's lesson about the finger and the moon.

            3. sed gawk Silver badge

              Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

              it's an Americanism for the punctuation character ending a sentence '.', which in proper English, we call a full stop. We also use "full stop" in the same context as Americans use "period", but much less frequently as it doesn't scan well. I agree it's a rather Milquetoast suffix.

              1. werdsmith Silver badge

                Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                I don apostrophe t get it full stop it apostrophe s just weird comma why not just write "." full stop We are not dictating telegrams so it apostrophe s totally unnecessary and makes me think I apostrophe m talking to Jeff Albertson full stop.

                1. Symon Silver badge
                  Headmaster

                  Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                  Re "."

                  That apostrophe s quotation marks . inverted commas if you please full stop

                2. Venerable and Fragrant Wind of Change
                  Thumb Up

                  Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                  Methinks you may need Victor Borge's phonetic punctuation.

              2. Venerable and Fragrant Wind of Change

                Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                The use as full stop is not an americanism. I don't know how far back it goes in England, but Thomas Weelkes used it in 1600.

                Though I think this particular usage for emphasis is indeed an americanism.

                1. KarMann Bronze badge

                  Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                  sed awk was saying 'period' is the Americanism, not 'full stop'. You've understood it precisely backwards. 'Full stop' is British, 'period' American, both meaning that little '.'. And both used metaphorically to emphasise the end of a sentence, thought, option, etc.

                  1. Venerable and Fragrant Wind of Change

                    Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                    You appear to have completely misread.

                    Had it been an Americanism, how likely is it Weelkes - in Winchester and Oxford - would have used "the period of cosmography" as a metaphor for Thule at the (geographic and mysterious) end of the Earth? With a description clearly inspired by Iceland, but through the tales of intrepid sailors in an age of exploration and discovery.

                    Perhaps you could argue it's archaic - as "cosmography" certainly is. But its use as an ending clearly pre-dates Americanisms in the language.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                      Period

                      "a length or portion of time."

                      "the interval of time between successive occurrences of the same state in an oscillatory or cyclic phenomenon, such as a mechanical vibration, an alternating current, a variable star, or an electromagnetic wave"

                      Clearly this is the periodicity being referred too in your quote.

                      1. Venerable and Fragrant Wind of Change

                        Re: Why do people write the word "period" ?

                        Instead of jumping to wrong conclusions, why don't you look it up?

                        Clue: the whole thing becomes nonsensical if you use any temporal definition of period.

                        1. sed gawk Silver badge

                          Re: And in a nutshell, this is why I love el-reg

                          Come for the articles, stay for the pedantry.

            4. RegGuy1 Silver badge

              Why do people write the word "period" ?

              Because they are foreigners. And we DON'T WANT foreigners. Full stop!

              What? These are American foreigners? Oh, they are alright -- well the white ones anyway. And they speak Engerlish (sort of, see title). Now if only we can get a red phone box back on the corner of every street; and re-create British Leyland, then Brexit would be great.

              That is all, period. (Opps!)

          3. macjules Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            Not sure I believe you on this. I have responsibility for a number of staff in my London office and almost three quarters of the staff are EU citizens around 200. Not one member of staff has reported any problem with being able to stay in the UK. In fact I have one Bulgarian staffer who started before Christmas and told me how impressed he was that the Home Office went out of their way to show him the steps he needed to follow to stay here permanently if he wished.

            1. JoshOvki

              Re: Good, good.

              Is this the equivalent of "It works on my PC so it must be fine"?

            2. Dan 55 Silver badge
              1. gnasher729 Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                “Note that it is actually impossible to prove settled status, there is no physical proof like a residency card.”

                The House If Lords voted that everyone with settled status should get written evidence. Johnson and his merry men are voting against it. So we can expect Windrush 2 in a few years.

                1. KarMann Bronze badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  And why not? Windrush 1 worked out quite nicely. For Theresa May, anyway.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Good, good.

                    People without anything at risk with respect to their family's life in the UK seem to forget the Home Office was deporting British Subjects not even two years ago.

              2. H in The Hague Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                "Note that it is actually impossible to prove settled status, there is no physical proof like a residency card."

                The House of Lords wanted to introduce a "settled status" card, to avoid the problems mentioned here. But the government rejected that amendment, apparently it would be fine to do all that digitally. It strikes me that some folk might not have 100% confidence in such a system.

                Source: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/house-of-lords-eu-citizens-physical-proof-a4339516.html (among others)

            3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              That's just one part of the Home Office. Some other part is quite apt to not know that or ignore it. It's now a long time since John Reid declared it not fit for purpose. He might have been the only Home Sec in several decades not to be house-trained because house-training seems to be one thing they are good at.

          4. Charlie Boy

            Re: Good, good.

            "Once a deal with the EU is negotiated and signed it will likely include freedom of movement as part of the deal" not a chance, it is only for members of the EU and that is is the charter. The EU and quite a lot of experts have been saying this from day one. Without being a paying in member we will not get the same FOM rights as we have now. Period.

            Ummmm how about the non-EU countries of Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein? I think you'll find they all have freedom of movement within the EU.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Good, good.

              Ummmm how about the non-EU countries of Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein? I think you'll find they all have freedom of movement within the EU.

              And the UK regions like the Isle of Man and Channel Islands never did. It's a lot more complex than the Daily Mail commentards would like to make out.

              1. John Smith 8

                Re: Good, good.

                The Isle of Man and Channel islands only ever got the partial status because they were part of an full EU member and under their control.

                The big myth the put out is that we could deal with the EU in the same way. It has never been in the slightest bit true.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Good, good.

                  >The Isle of Man and Channel islands only ever got the partial status because they were part of an full EU member and under their control.

                  The Channel Islands and IoM are *not and have never been* in the EU. They are not *politically* or *legally* part of the UK. They are Crown Dependencies, but independent from the UK. They have their own Parliament, own laws, own data adequacy agreements with the EU, etc.

                  They are part of the Common Travel Area (along with the UK and Ireland), and have had their own version of FoM (without the ability to move permanently to the CIs) for approaching a century. Its one of the main reasons that Ireland didn't join Schengen.

            2. John Smith 8

              Re: Good, good.

              Erm, can you stop making out that Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein are in some way outside the EU in the same we will be? You know. Factual stuff.

              They are in the European Economic Area. Which is in the single market. Also the EEA is in Schengen, with no checks between borders, so in some ways more integrated with the EU than the UK ever was..

              So "I think you'll find" (the most patronising phrase ever) that ship sailed around June 2016 when joining the EEA wasn't seen as "leaving the EU". Or BINO (Brexit In Name Only).

              1. Lars Silver badge
                Happy

                Re: Good, good.

                @John Smith 8

                They do have custom controls between Norway and Sweden.

                A short video about it here.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhJAUt5sxA

            3. Tom 38 Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              Ummmm how about the non-EU countries of Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein? I think you'll find they all have freedom of movement within the EU.

              Norway, for instance, pays a contribution to the EU budget and accepts EU rules in return for FoM and some-what free trade - eg high duties on processed salmon, low duties on un-processed salmon.

            4. Lars Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: Good, good.

              While Norway is not a full member of rhe EU they do contribute to the budget,

              More in the Wikipedia

              "Norway maintained its membership in the European Economic Area (EEA), an arrangement granting the country access to the internal market of the Union, on the condition that Norway implements the Union's pieces of legislation which are deemed relevant (of which there were approximately seven thousand by 2010)[158] Successive Norwegian governments have, since 1994, requested participation in parts of the EU's co-operation that go beyond the provisions of the EEA agreement. Non-voting participation by Norway has been granted in, for instance, the Union's Common Security and Defence Policy, the Schengen Agreement, and the European Defence Agency, as well as 19 separate programmes".

            5. Lotaresco Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              "Ummmm how about the non-EU countries of Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein? I think you'll find they all have freedom of movement within the EU."

              Iceland - Member of EFTA, also part of the European Economic Area (EEA). Iceland participates with a non-voting status in EU agencies and programmes. Iceland also contributes funds to the EU. Iceland aligns with the EU foreign policy. Iceland participates in EU peacekeeping missions. Iceland is a member of the Schengen Area, under EU law. Iceland's participation in the Schengen Area allows free movement of people between Iceland and the rest of the Schengen Area. Iceland accepts free movement and EU citizens are free to visit Iceland to live, run businesses etc.

              Norway - As Iceland but also accepts EU laws, participates at high level in defence and pays substantial membership fees to the EU.

              Liechtenstein - As Iceland

              All of these states have accepted the very things that the UK Brexiters have said they will not accept. If you're saying that it's now OK to accept full freedom of movement, all EU laws, EU peacekeeping duties, Schengen and continue to make our EU contributions (with no rebate) then freedom of movement will happen. However that's not what the UK is offering, is it?

          5. LucreLout Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            I know several EU citizens who have already been forced to leave

            No you don't. No EU citizens have been forced to do anything yet. This is a lie.

            There's no plans to make anyone leave, just the opposite - we've set up a system where anyone that doesn't trust future governments can register that they're here and receive a right to remain letter.

            My wife is Swedish and it's taken her a minimal amount of time to apply for this - less than it takes me to do my taxes every year.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Good, good.

              LucreLout>No EU citizens have been forced to do anything yet. This is a lie.

              I know 3 EU families who've left the UK since brexit because there was no security for their future there. Why risk bringing up and educating your kids in a country where they have no right to stay or work when there are plenty of other countries where they do?!

              But I guess brexit gammons can't and won't understand that.

              Anyone with EU nationality staying in the UK after the end of this year, knowing what the Home Office did to the Windrushers, more fool them.

              1. LucreLout Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                I know 3 EU families who've left the UK since brexit because there was no security for their future there. Why risk bringing up and educating your kids in a country where they have no right to stay or work when there are plenty of other countries where they do?!

                Ok, so you know 3 families that have chosen to go live elsewhere in Europe. Families with a history of moving around for a better life. Wonderful as that is, its completely irrelevant to the point originally made and to my response to it, which still stands as fact - zero, absolute zero families or people have been forced to relocate out of the UK because of Brexit. "send them home" is a remoaner lie.

                Anyone with EU nationality staying in the UK after the end of this year, knowing what the Home Office did to the Windrushers, more fool them.

                And yet my wife is completely Zen about it because it really will all be fine.

        3. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Meh

          Re: Good, good.

          seems that EU citizens already employed inside UK _IS_ the reason for the policy. This would help prevent chaos, for sure.

          I wish U.S. policies on immigration would JUST stick to allowing those who have skills that benefit the nation (like scientists and engineers and doctors and NOT unskilled laborers and people looking for handouts). It's really hard to stop a gravy train though... (right Donald?) so best NOT to start one!

          1. Patrician

            Re: Good, good.

            "unskilled laborers and people looking for handouts"

            So, all unskilled workers are "looking for handouts" in your opinion, not just looking for employment to improve their lives?

            1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              Working for an employers is seen by some employers as doing the employee a favour, not leveraging someone else's time to make more money.

            2. Graham Cobb

              Re: Good, good.

              So, all unskilled workers are "looking for handouts" in your opinion, not just looking for employment to improve their lives?

              Freedom of movement has been one of the main mechanisms by which the EU has kept the peace in Europe. Freedom of movement allows for a gradual economic transfer from the wealthy western EU nations to new entrants, as people come from the poorer countries to work in the more prosperous ones, and some of that money gets transferred back to their home country. The other main mechanism, of course, is free trade which has encouraged investment in industry in cheaper countries.

              Combined, those two mechanisms have caused EU membership to be attractive to the former communist countries and have reduced tensions by increasing their prosperity. We already see the benefits in Poland, Czechia (as they like to called nowadays) and Slovakia - countries where prosperity has increased and who are looking forward to benefiting from Brexit by the transfer of manufacturing from the UK as we exit. Bulgaria and Romania are in the early stages still.

              Unfortunately, Brexit will put much of that economic support back onto Germany. We had better hope that the other large countries increase their prosperity fast enough to avoid Germans feeling they are left supporting everyone else and feeding nationalism.

              It is a shame no US politicians have the vision and statesmanship to see the point of extending NAFTA to allow a similar role in spreading economic benefits through Latin America.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Good, good.

                Freedom of movement has been one of the main mechanisms by which the EU has kept the peace in Europe.

                Freedom of movement of goods and services was a part of the *European Community* that's been around since the 1970s, and the free trade region it helped maintain was indeed conducive to peace.

                Adding centralized political and economic control into the mix to create the EU in 1993 has probably caused more damage to peace in Europe than anything since WW2. The eurozone economy is shot, unemployment is high and climbing and the lack of any credible opposition to the "ever-closer Union" groupthink is driving people to the extremes of left and right across Europe, yet the only solution from Brussels is "more Europe, more, more".

                Czechia (as they like to called nowadays)

                Really? You haven't spoken to many Czechs, have you! The ones I know are very insistent that they live in the Czech Republic, no matter what Google maps might like to call it.

                to see the point of extending NAFTA to allow a similar role in spreading economic benefits through Latin America.

                NAFTA is a good idea, emphasis on the Free Trade part. Now imagine what would happen if Trump suggested bringing all of N. and Latin America under centralized political and economic control, to turn NAFTA into a North American Union. Think it would be popular?

          2. fajensen Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            And God - or rather political donations working smaller miracles - Forbid that all those fine, upstanding, folks who are paying those "unwanted" illegal immigrants cash-in-hand to "come here" were ever to be taken to court over any of it!

            Better to kick the immigrants down, it's much safer.

          3. voster

            Re: Good, good.

            "(like scientists and engineers and doctors and NOT unskilled laborers and people looking for handouts)"

            How about skilled labourers? Plumbers, for example. Australia's point-based system loves them. Turns out having enough trained plumbers is a hard thing to achieve!

            And as for unskilled labourers? Send them all back and watch your food prices shoot up! Them Iowan Republicans can talk a good game about any issue concerning their party except for immigration - they love the Mexicans. The NEED them.

        4. Just Enough Silver badge

          Re: Good, good.

          "include freedom of movement as part of the deal and it will be business as usual"

          This will not happen, simply because it will be the UK, as usual, wanting the benefits of the EU without the obligations. The other members of the EU are not idiots. You want to be a member of their club? Then you pay your membership fee and follow the rules like everyone else.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good, good.

          HARD Brexit or Ditch.....

        6. The Hamster

          Re: Good, good.

          UK has offered no guarantees whatsoever so any EU citizen staying in the UK feels like living on borrowed time.

          Also, you can attract scientists however you want but a considerable portion of UK's scientific research was financed through the EU. Guess what's going to happen to that money now. Why should the scientists go to the UK which first has to find the money to finance the projects when they can simply go anywhere else in the EU where the research will move now?

      2. Allan George Dyer Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Good, good.

        It is so heartening that your post has triggered such an outpouring of accurate advice from well-informed people. It will be so useful to people who may be confused or worried by the complexities of changing international bureaucracy.

        At least, I guess some of it must be accurate, just like there's usually a lottery winner.

    2. Pier Reviewer

      Re: Good, good.

      “ Well done Boris and Priti for delivering on your promise.”

      Can you point to what’s actually been delivered? It’s just talk at the moment. The visa changes cannot apply until 2021 at the earliest, so best hold onto your thanks until then. It might not work out quite as you’d hoped.

      Saying you want the best engineers etc to come to the UK is one thing. Convincing them to accept your kind invitation is quite another.

      It will be interesting to see how the hostile environment policy pans out with all these foreign engineers on our shores. I rather suspect that more than one poor soul will find that a PhD, full work history, and Nobel Prize will count for nought when the Home Office comes a-knocking :(

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good, good.

        It's the Home Office so skin colour will also be a factor. A PhD and a job offer at a research institute but also pretty dark skinned? Forget about it.

        With Theresa May as Home Secretary and then Prime Minister and now Boris Johnson who doesn't shake the hands of black people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lg6LIGOqGU) we're going to see a whole new meaning to the term institutionalised racism.

        1. Symon Silver badge
          Coat

          Re: Good, good.

          I watched the video. To be fair, (as in "treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination", not "(of hair or complexion) light; blonde") it seems that the gentlemen in question didn't want to shake his hand. And who can blame them...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good, good.

        Pier Reviewer>>Can you point to what’s actually been delivered?

        Easier immigration for people from India.

        It's what we were promised and why many British Asians voted to Leave.

        Hopefully after a good trade deal we'll also be getting visa free travel so our families can more easily visit.

        Democracy. Sovereignty. They are beautiful when they deliver exactly what was asked for and promised. Thank you Priti Patel.

    3. rtfazeberdee

      Re: Good, good.

      I'm sure they are going to enjoy working the fields picking fruit and veg and clearing up after old people in care homes

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: Good, good.

        Important work, both of them and especially the latter. I would rank any care profession above IT.

        1. Teiwaz Silver badge

          Re: Good, good.

          Important work, both of them and especially the latter. I would rank any care profession above IT.

          Quite agree, but seemingly the pay comparison usually demonstrates employers don't.

          1. ratfox Silver badge
            Angel

            Re: Good, good.

            Indeed, even though IT professionals themselves are rather underpaid in the UK... Good to know that Boris Johnson is working on making sure this remains the case.

            1. John Smith 8

              Re: Good, good.

              He is working on it. He's making them MORE underpaid.

              1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                The NHS will be shortly a thing of the past with Boris at the wheel.

                At least he'll have lots of homeless people in front of which he can burn a £50 note.

            2. LucreLout Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              Indeed, even though IT professionals themselves are rather underpaid in the UK...

              I'm not sure that's accurate.

              In London it isn't - the market rates for skills here are sky high, my earning ambitions are more curtailed by the PAYE tax system than they are by the market. Everything after £100k starts to hurt more than it helps (67% effective tax rate), and anything over £150k just ruins your private sector pension (allowances seem to have been made for public sector pensions).

              In the rest of the country you have plenty of £70k IT jobs in the public sector (My wife is always trying to get me to take one and join her).

              Private sector roles in non-london may well be underpaid.... I've not much recent experience with those.

          2. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            @Teiwaz

            "Quite agree, but seemingly the pay comparison usually demonstrates employers don't."

            The employers charging as much as they can get away with as its the people who dont want to pay more. Apparently some people have been moving to an Asian country in their older years as the care costs are much less. Its an interesting idea considering the demands for a living wage but the high costs of care.

          3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            pay comparison usually demonstrates employers don't.

            That's because many of the care professions (especially home care) is outsourced - and the outsource companies need to make moeny and the only way they can do that is by cutting staff costs. The easiest way of doing that? Pay only minimum wage.

            Bring those roles back in-house. Then the 20% markup that the outsource companies slp on top of everything disappears and the people actually doing the job can (hopefully) benefit by either having higher wages or having more people to spread the load.

            Outsourcing is a pernicious poison that reduces quality, raises cost and destroys morale.

            1. Kiwi Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: Good, good.

              Bring those roles back in-house. Then the 20% markup that the outsource companies slp on top of everything disappears and the people actually doing the job can (hopefully) benefit by either having higher wages

              Sadly, the money saved will not reach our pockets. More likely, some bureaucrap will line their pocket with a hefty bonus for the "savings" they made and that'll exceed the costs saved.

              ...or having more people to spread the load.

              No thanks. Trust me, on a bad day some of our clients can "spread the load" in ways you could not imagine (of if you did, the basin's that way, hope you didn't pay much for lunch!). More people doing it just ain't what we want! :)

      2. Kiwi Silver badge
        Alert

        Re: Good, good.

        I'm sure they are going to enjoy working the fields picking fruit and veg and clearing up after old people in care homes

        You do realise you're describing my life now, after years working in various industries including a number of IT-based roles?

        You do realise I much enjoy the care work and garden work - much much much more than I ever enjoyed the IT work?

        I'd rather wipe off some overweight old cow with diarrhoea than deal with Win10 again! At least we get supplied gloves and can actually get methods to prevent the smell being an issue!

        But seriously.. I don't often get called to work in the shittier roles in this job, often just have to be present for a few hours after some medications are taken but no other active role (so can chat, garden, get on El Reg, whatever so long as I am there if the client needs me), the pay is OK, there's some travel, and I get to meet and chat with decent people who may not be able to do much physically but still have a lot they can offer (and some are just right nutters - age is NOT a guarantee of wisdom! I do some house cleaning work and other handyman work as well, as part of the job.

        Some day, maybe not too far off, you may find yourself needing the help of one such as I. It might be short-term as the result of someone else's bad driving, it might be the rest of your life and your fault.. Don't denigrate us too readily because when your arse needs wiping and you can't do it yourself, you'll be grateful for someone like me to be there to treat you well while helping you do what is normally one of the most personal and solitary parts of daily life. And I may also be the one responsible for your cooking as well....

    4. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Good, good.

      As far as I've read it's just another visa which has been renamed and had its cap of 2000 people/year removed. It never hit that cap in the entirety of its existence so in the grand scheme of things it means nothing apart from yet more smoke and mirrors for the domestic population's enjoyment.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good, good.

        Dan 55 "so in the grand scheme of things it means nothing apart from yet more smoke and mirrors for the domestic population's enjoyment."

        Awww don't spoil the perceived victory!

        This is what winning feels like!

    5. hammarbtyp Silver badge

      Re: Good, good.

      "Unlimited immigration of high calibre engineers, scientists and doctors from around the world (specifically India) is what many I know voted for."

      I think a lot of your comrades in arms would be surprised to know that they voted for unlimited immigration from places like India, however well qualified they are.

      Still a few problems with this. Firstly there is already a program where talented people can come in. It is capped at 2000, but those limits are rarely reached. We have always had the capacity to attract those, but there are better places to work and that is unlikely to change in the near future

      Second is it treats people like commodities that can be bought and sold. These are human beings with their own needs and wants. They are also the sought after people so we are competing on a global stage. So here are a few questions that I would want to ask if I was one of them. Can I bring my wife/partner.children. What would be there legal status. Would they be able to work if my pay falls below the immigration threshold? When my children reach majority will they be given the rights as citizens? What are my rights as visa holder compared as a citizen. Am i tied to one employment? Do I have to pay extra for health care, etc. Certainly for many Europeans the answers to those questions will most likely fall far below what they can get in a similar post in the EU

      Thirdly, cost to business. Which ever way you couch it, there is bureaucracy involved. If I wanted to hire the brightest band best I still need to convince the home office they fit the criteria. Big companies and universities will be OK, but startups may well find the cost and effort difficult to sustain

      Fourth. Who decides who is the brightest and best. Why are some areas not included. Governments have a terrible track record in anticipating present and future needs

      Finally. Can someone also be bright and unaware that the UK has become a far right xenophobic cesspit in recent years. It is almost a catch 22 situation - if apply, you are showing you are not bright enough to understand the ramifications

      1. Bryan B

        Re: Good, good.

        "I think a lot of your comrades in arms would be surprised to know that they voted for unlimited immigration from places like India, however well qualified they are."

        Missed irony alert, I fear!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good, good.

          I disagree. Priti Patel (one of the senior figures in the current Brexit-delivering government) actively campaigned for Brexit on the grounds that it would allow the UK to increase immigration from Commonwealth countries (such as India) back to pre-EU levels of 300,000 or so per year.

          The idea that Brexiteers weren't fully informed about what they were voting for and what the consequences would be needs to be put to rest. They didn't vote out of ignorance or prejudice. They knew what they voted for and they are going to get it.

          1. The First Dave Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            "The idea that Brexiteers weren't fully informed" is absolutely true, though to be fair remainers didn't get the full picture either, not least because the full picture still isn't available.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              >not least because the full picture still isn't available.

              Are there no more buses to paint ?

          2. hammarbtyp Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            I disagree. Priti Patel (one of the senior figures in the current Brexit-delivering government) actively campaigned for Brexit on the grounds that it would allow the UK to increase immigration from Commonwealth countries (such as India) back to pre-EU levels of 300,000 or so per year.

            The idea that Brexiteers weren't fully informed about what they were voting for and what the consequences would be needs to be put to rest. They didn't vote out of ignorance or prejudice. They knew what they voted for and they are going to get it.

            Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,<Breath>ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,

            Wait a second you really believe this? we are well and truly buggered

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Good, good.

              But she is brown so you could ignore everything she said

              The joy of democracy is that you only have to listen to politicians that agree with you

          3. David Hicklin

            Re: Good, good.

            " increase immigration from Commonwealth countries (such as India) back to pre-EU levels of 300,000 or so per year"

            I though it was more a case of "You want a trade agreement? Bend over here please!"

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Good, good.

        "If I wanted to hire the brightest band best I still need to convince the home office they fit the criteria."

        There is a big change in this regard. The decision is being taken out of the hands of the HO and put into the hands of the UK Research and Innovation Agency.

        Your real problem will be whether your brightest and best fall into this scheme. It looks as if it will only benefit an elite.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good, good.

          > put into the hands of the UK Research and Innovation Agency

          Oh dear - we're doomed.

          (My wife works there and the utter incompetence of how the reasearch councils have been borged by UKRI beggars the mind. It makes the various NHS mega-projects I've been involved in look competently run)

        2. Paul Stimpson

          Re: Good, good.

          "Your real problem will be whether your brightest and best fall into this scheme. It looks as if it will only benefit an elite."

          ...and by extension only the biggest and most well off companies and institutions. Small companies and startups who want to create new innovations are unlikely to be able to attract notable Engineers and Scientists.

    6. MyffyW Silver badge

      Re: Good, good.

      Whilst I welcome smart folk from around the world, I can just imagine my intolerant in-laws greeting this particular initiative with the warmth they normally reserve for yours truly.

    7. Just Enough Silver badge

      Re: Good, good.

      "high calibre engineers, scientists and doctors from around the world"

      What makes you think high calibre people are interested in coming to a country that is busy cutting its own throat and is amply demonstrating that foreigners are not welcomed? What makes you think they are not already welcomed in practically any other country in the world?

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Perhaps if UK education, engineering and science...

      ... had not been neglected by the same political party then we would not need to import anyone.

      What I take away from this is that the existing citizens who have suffered due to this party's policies are going to ignored even more.

      Fine if you are currently affluent but bare in mind who these people and their families are going to be competing with for all those "perks" that make the UK worth moving to. If we cannot afford to look after our own now then why are we bringing in more people.

      Answer: to reduce wages, benefits and general living conditions for everyone in the UK until this country is identical to the one that the "educated" immigrants are leaving.

    9. Patrician

      Re: Good, good.

      As the article points out, the type of people that the government is trying to attract with this policy are the type of people that will be able to take their choice of country in which to work.

      Why in the name of all that's holy would they chose to work in a country that has proven to be racist, xenophobic and isolationist like the UK is now?

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Good, good.

        @Patrician

        "Why in the name of all that's holy would they chose to work in a country that has proven to be racist, xenophobic and isolationist like the UK is now?"

        Smart people from anywhere in the world come here! And you call that racist, xenophobic and racist? Go on make me laugh.

        1. Patrician

          Re: Good, good.

          "Smart people from anywhere in the world come here! "

          Smart people from anywhere in the world *came* here! There's a lot less reason for them to carry on doing so now.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Good, good.

            @Patrician

            Clever ducking of the question. You clearly stated- "country that has proven to be racist, xenophobic and isolationist like the UK is now?" and I asked how inviting people from all over the world is racist.

            Go on make me laugh.

            1. Patrician

              Re: Good, good.

              @codejunky

              Considering that the major reason given for brexit was to stop Johnny Foreigner sullying this sceptered isle how does it not show racism and xenophobia?

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Good, good.

                @Patrician

                "Considering that the major reason given for brexit was to stop Johnny Foreigner sullying this sceptered isle how does it not show racism and xenophobia?"

                That assumes the major reason was to stop foreigners. I hear that from remain and yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too). So beyond your assumption why do you believe that?

                1. Patrician

                  Re: Good, good.

                  Unfortunately, the majority of my friends, and for that matter family (three brothers), are leave supporters (yeah, maybe I need new friends and family) and to a person, when asked why, stated "to stop the immigrants coming here" as a main reason.

                  Hard not to see racism as a main driver for the majority of leave voters when the ones that I know are all stating racist reasons.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Good, good.

                    @Patrician

                    "when asked why, stated "to stop the immigrants coming here" as a main reason."

                    Is that paraphrased? It is possible they honestly dislike immigration in general but is it not a specific problem? Or did they say something like border control but you assume that means stop immigrants (that is a common misinterpretation).

                    "Hard not to see racism as a main driver for the majority of leave voters when the ones that I know are all stating racist reasons."

                    I get that, and I am sure some people voted leave for racist reasons. I have come across racists and xenophobic reasons for remain and I have to remind myself that these are only some of the people not all or probably most.

                    One issue I cross often is the direction of debate. For years I have offered to discuss on the basis of economics, democracy, trade, sovereignty and border control and yet the people I discuss with want to talk immigration so they can say 'racist' and 'xenophobic' (directed or not at me).

                    As I see it there are isolationists, racists and xenophobes on both sides but there are also plenty others who want trade and managed immigration and so on. Instead of the battle lines being drawn between remain/leave which has been decided now I would like to see like minds grouping together against those who would be racist and isolationist.

                    1. Patrician

                      Re: Good, good.

                      "Is that paraphrased? It is possible they honestly dislike immigration in general but is it not a specific problem? Or did they say something like border control but you assume that means stop immigrants (that is a common misinterpretation)."

                      It is paraphrased to a degree because I refuse to use the same language that they did when asked; but we are talking about eight, different people all stating that their prime reason for voting Leave was "to stop all those <expletive> "immigrants" coming in and taking our housing stocks, using health services, taking peoples jobs and going on benefits.

                      The paraphrasing is the word in the parenthesise.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Good, good.

                        @Patrician

                        "The paraphrasing is the word in the parenthesise."

                        I can believe that, it sounds very familiar (not just about the EU). Sorry those are the leave opinions you are hearing because it doesnt really represent leave.

                        if it is of any interest feel free to search for economic benefits of leaving the EU and the problems the EU cause for the UK (and members in general). There are plenty reasons to have the opinion of leave without resorting to racism.

                        1. Patrician

                          Re: Good, good.

                          You've obviously done your research and come an informed decision on how you voted, however, based on the people I know that voted the same way, I don't believe there were many as diligent as you were for voting "leave", and were primarily driven by racism and xenophobia.

                    2. Dr_N Silver badge
                      Go

                      Re: Good, good.

                      codejunk>I have come across racists and xenophobic reasons for remain and I have to remind myself that these are only some of the people not all or probably most.

                      LOL Nice one. "racist reasons" Not "racists". Superb sophistry on your part. Really excellent.

                      Not as good as you helping pump up the anti-muslim/anti-Turk/anti-dark-skin vote.

                      Not long now to B-day. Hope you get everything you've lied so hard for these last years. You really do deserve it.

                      1. codejunky Silver badge

                        Re: Good, good.

                        @Dr_N

                        "LOL Nice one. "racist reasons" Not "racists". Superb sophistry on your part. Really excellent."

                        I could go the blunt instrument of calling those remainers racist if you like. The point I was making being that such people were on both sides. I am not quite sure what your complaint is except to return as my pet troll.

                        "Not as good as you helping pump up the anti-muslim/anti-Turk/anti-dark-skin vote."

                        As always I am not racist as much as you really want me to be. I am guessing without that delusion you have nothing.

                        "Not long now to B-day. Hope you get everything you've lied so hard for these last years. You really do deserve it."

                        Appreciated. It will be interesting to see if you still feel the need to troll me after although if fantasizing about my beliefs is what makes you happy in life, they are your fantasies to enjoy (the rest of us not so much).

                        1. Dr_N Silver badge
                          Trollface

                          Re: Good, good.

                          codejunk>As always I am not racist as much as you really want me to be. I am guessing without that delusion you have nothing.

                          I've never called you a racist.

                          Pandering to racists and whipping up racists with lies and deceit, to achieve an outcome you desire, does not make you a racist.

                          Just as calling you out for your various mistruths isn't really trolling.

                          Calling you ꓘomЯad ꓘodeJunꓘy probably is.

                          codejunky>The point I was making being that such people were on both sides.

                          Liar.

                          1. codejunky Silver badge

                            Re: Good, good.

                            @Dr_N

                            "Pandering to racists and whipping up racists with lies and deceit, to achieve an outcome you desire, does not make you a racist."

                            Oh thank you. But since I dont whip up racists and in fact take issue with my friends globally having difficulty accessing this country if they are not from the promised land I am not sure the racists would want me.

                            "Just as calling you out for your various mistruths isn't really trolling."

                            Still waiting on you doing this. Normally you accuse me of racist things then carry on with your fantasy while adding nothing to the discussion.

                            "Liar."

                            Here is your opportunity! Instead of just calling me a lier but with absolutely nothing of value to your comment you can try to call me out for a mistruth that you claim to call out. In what way am I lying?

                            1. Kiwi Silver badge
                              Headmaster

                              Re: Good, good.

                              In what way am I lying?

                              I too would like to see that! In what way am I lying?

                              If you can prove to me that codejunky is indeed lying in this topic then not only shall I call him a downright dirty liar to his face (at least so far as El Reg allows), I shall write a strongly-worded letter the Moderatrix (wherever she is, if I can find her) and I shall also vehemently go forth and downvote many more of codejunky's posts for being the filthy rotten liar you accuse him of being!

                              Assuming, of course, that you can show that he's lying in this posts to this thread.

                              1. Dr_N Silver badge

                                Re: Good, good.

                                Kiwi>I too would like to see that! In what way am I lying?

                                Aren't you the person who likes to call others, "Paki" ?

                                codejunky>yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).

                                There you go. I didn't have to scroll far.

                                1. Kiwi Silver badge
                                  FAIL

                                  Re: Good, good.

                                  Kiwi>I too would like to see that! In what way am I lying?

                                  Aren't you the person who likes to call others, "Paki" ?

                                  I wouldn't say I like to call anyone that, but I do from time to time. It's a Maori word that means "bright and sunny". In NZ culture it's quite common to use Maori terms. If you watch any of our news broadcasts you'll hear a number of Maori words and terms being used outside of those that are just place names.

                                  Also, in the Pakistani language it means "pure", and in New Zealand (and in the US (at least in Salt Lake City)) it is also perfectly acceptable as an abbreviation for "Pakistani".

                                  So if you're trying to suggest I am racist, you've just scored an own goal and proven yourself to be racist by failing to understand the cultural differences between you and Kiwi's, especially the Maori language. You've also shown yourself to be racist against Pakistani's both in NZ and in the US by claiming a term acceptable to and used by them is wrong.

                                  Care to try again Mr Self-Confessed Racist?

                                  codejunky>yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).

                                  There you go. I didn't have to scroll far.

                                  But I'm not a Brexit supporter. If you had any level of reading comprehension you'd have grasped that.

                                  Besides that.. Assuming I did support Brexit and I was racist as you wish to imply, how would CodeJunky have been lying by saying some racists support Brexit?

                                  And since you've shown yourself to be racist, how is he lying by saying some racists also support remain?

                                  FTR, since I've not come out really and said it (I am pretty much neutral since I don't live in the UK) - If I was in the UK it is likely I would've voted remain. There, I've said it. Most likely I'd be a "remainer" However, I have no skin in the game and have not really sat down and looked at the issues or promises either way, therefore I take a neutral stance. For now it's a close thing with me but as I said, I'd probably have fallen to the side of "remain" as, if I was over there, close ties to the EU might have seemed more beneficial to me - but only just. I'm not there, I haven't read the material in depth,so I have to side with "status quo".

                                  The reason I support people such as Code Junky is they tend to have the more reasoned responses to posts unlike people such as yourself. If you want to have a reasoned discussion, please do so. If you aren't capable of a reasoned discussion, perhaps you'd find the Dail Mail or re-runs of "Big Brother" or "Britain's Got Talent" to be more to your capabilities.

                                  Oh, and thanks for showing us how racist you are. I know now how to respond to you in the future.

                                  1. This post has been deleted by its author

                                  2. Dr_N Silver badge

                                    Re: Good, good.

                                    Kiwi>But I'm not a Brexit supporter.

                                    I never said you were. Sorry for any confusion. Still dislike your posts on the use of abusive language. Having been on the end of such stuff all through school in the 70s.

                                    "codejunky>yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).”

                                    I still say this statement is a lie. Finding remain voting racists? Evidence or it never happened.

                                    1. Anonymous Coward
                                      Anonymous Coward

                                      Re: Good, good.

                                      Finding remain voting racists? Evidence or it never happened.

                                      Look at all the comments here from remainers who insist that the only possible reason anyone would vote Leave was to "keep the darkies out" (I paraphrase). They demonstrate a racist point of view right there, as well as an ignorant one.

                                      1. Dr_N Silver badge

                                        Re: Good, good.

                                        AC>They demonstrate a racist point of view right there,

                                        And you demonstrate a lack if understanding as to what racism is.

                                        Or are just trying to muddy the waters which is straight out the alt.right playbook which codejunky also seems to favour: "Why should I have to pay taxes?!", "Hordes of dark folk are coming !!!”,

                                        "Students are communists.", "There is no such thing as racism." or "No, you are racist!" followed by "I've got Black/Asian friends!" and "The only good woman is a Tradwife."

                                        Ciao!

                  2. Kiwi Silver badge
                    Pint

                    Re: Good, good.

                    when asked why, stated "to stop the immigrants coming here" as a main reason.

                    I have a very strong dislike of NZ's broad immigration policies and what they mean for this nation.

                    Racism has nothing to do with it. What is a problem is the number of people who cannot afford housing, the rate at which infrastructure is falling behind. At the last election I voted for a party with a policy of reducing immigration. We still are getting between 50,000 and 70,000 people per year. I don't really give a stuff about what jobs they do, but our housing, transport, plumbing, electrical, medical etc infrastructure are NOT keeping pace and that is leading to a number of issues for our nation, including housing shortages (too many families living in cars, garages etc), looming power shortages (both due to a lack of new stations and new cabling) though there is still some spare capacity, water (Wellington has just started some work on new reservoirs - IIRC now needed 30 years ahead of earlier forecasts)

                    The same party I voted for also has a policy of increasing our refugee quote, which will rise to 1,500 this year - personally I'd love to see that at least doubled perhaps quadrupled. Maybe NZ could do 10,000 refugees but no other immigrants (unless some very special needs cases can be proven).

                    It's not racism, not even close. Nor is it xenophobia or "isolationism". It's a desire for immigrant numbers to match what the nation can sustain, and to be cut right back until the infrastructure has a chance to catch up. It's a desire to lessen the stress and even suffering many people in NZ experience, largely due to issues around immigration (that's not the only one but one that can help).

                    Did you ever really sit down and discuss the issues with your family? Kudos if you did. Or are you just one of those who decides that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, without bothering to try to learn something about the other side and lessen your own ignorance?

                2. hammarbtyp Silver badge

                  Re: Good, good.

                  @codejunky

                  I hear that from remain and yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).

                  spend a lot of time with racists do you?

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: Good, good.

                    @hammarbtyp

                    "spend a lot of time with racists do you?"

                    No more than anyone else seems to when discussing brexit. As I have already noted its amusing how an invite to the world is considered racist.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Good, good.

              codejunky ”I asked how inviting people from all over the world is racist.

              Go on make me laugh.”

              Because it's the Home Office equivalent of, ”I've got Asian friends.” ?

              Remember, there is a language component. Perhaps the UK will really instigate an "Australian Points Based System" and not specifying the language. Then give the dusky-coloured folk a German test before refusing them entry?”

              Bonza!!!

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good, good.

          "Smart people from anywhere in the world come here! And you call that racist, xenophobic and racist? Go on make me laugh."

          I'm a brown Southeast Asian who's lived here a fair while. The UK is, in general, quite tolerant. As in any place, it varies by region and time and place. It helps that I am quite open-minded myself, and learned to down six pints and do a tactical chunder.

          But, don't fool yourself into thinking society is not racist or xenophobic. There is always these undercurrents in all societies. I catch myself with these kneejerk reactions myself, sometimes. The weeks right after the Brexit referendum were awful. Even in cosmopolitan Cambridge, I witnessed and on one occasion was subjected to racist abuse myself.

          There are certain events that incite a specific passion that amplifies certain motives in us. I get that if the club I support wins a good game, for example (though Arsenal gives fewer pleasures these days). And so it was that Brexit truly brought out the worse xenophobic tendencies within a section of British society that made it confrontational for many, and intolerable for some.

        4. Stork Silver badge

          Re: Good, good.

          I have an engineering degree and had a great experience moving to the UK almost 30 years ago. I am not sure I would have tried in the current situation.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good, good.

        > Why in the name of all that's holy would they chose to work in a country that has proven to be racist, xenophobic and isolationist like the UK is now?

        Is it because we have such large and generously-funded programmes of science research across all fields, carried out in state-of-the-art laboratories and research institutions?

        1. Lotaresco Silver badge

          Re: Good, good.

          "Is it because we have such large and generously-funded programmes of science research across all fields, carried out in state-of-the-art laboratories and research institutions?"

          I'm taking that as evidence that you have never worked in research in the UK. Each of those statements is a myth. Try again with "small, poorly-funded programmes of science research in a limited set of fields, carried out in ancient and decaying laboratories in moribund research organisations."

          The government has been running down and closing research organisations since the 1970s. The miracle has been that good research has been done despite chronic underfunding and piss-poor pay.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Good, good.

            > I'm taking that as evidence that you have never worked in research in the UK. Each of those statements is a myth. Try again with "small, poorly-funded programmes of science research in a limited set of fields, carried out in ancient and decaying laboratories in moribund research organisations."

            Oh dear God it was sarcasm.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good, good.

        in a country that has proven to be racist, xenophobic and isolationist like the UK is now

        If you think that applies to the UK I suggest you try spending a few years living in other EU countries. France, for example, which (after 30 years living here) I can assure you is far more institutionally racist than the UK. All those snide 1950s UK comments about Indians and Caribbean immigrants being "nice enough, but not 'one of us'", "wouldn't like them as neighbours", "can't understand their accent", "should go back where they came from" ? That's France today, just replace "Indian" with "Arab", or "Vietnamese".

    10. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good, good.

      This immediately springs to mind as the British answer to that:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2zJ8vaB5jo

    11. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: Good, good.

      It's true that many people of non-European descent felt that their relatives, in particular, were at an immigration disadvantage compared with people from the EU,

      However, it's extremely unlikely that the freedom of movement formerly enjoyed not only by EU scientists but by their spouses and children will be extended to the families of those who qualify for research visas. There will be young people who are looking for short-term career moves to the UK for whom this won't be a problem, but if you're looking to attract and retain talent it's not sufficient to offer only the talented a grudging concession - they have lives outside their careers like the rest of us and will ultimately go wherever those lives can best be enjoyed.

  2. mittfh
    Devil

    Major Review

    "promising to tackle “unnecessary paperwork, arduous funding applications and research selection processes” by consulting with “world-leading scientists, researchers, academics and industry figures on what more can be done.”

    Given this is government we're speaking about, they'll then promptly ignore the results of the consultation and add even more paperwork...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Major Review

      "Given this is government we're speaking about, they'll then promptly ignore the results of the consultation and add even more paperwork..."

      You forgot "...and outsource the administration to Capita/ATOS" ;P

      1. BoldMan

        Re: Major Review

        ...and fast track grants and funding to their girlfirends/ex-girlfriends/boyfirends/ex-boyfriends/favourite brown envelope supplier...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Like Brexit or loath it...

    ... It does provide the opportunity to base immigration policy on more solid economic grounds than "does the prospective immigrant happen to come from Europe?"

    Outside basket-case security concerns, the country of origin shouldn't factor at all - just the individual applying.

    1. Symon Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

      loath :- adjective

      reluctant; unwilling. "I was loath to let this mistake pass"

      loathe :- verb

      feel intense dislike or disgust for. "I loathed this title on sight"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

        Looks like grimmriffer would be refused entry with his poor grasp of English?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

      ... It does provide the opportunity to base immigration policy on more solid economic grounds than "does the prospective immigrant happen to come from Europe?"

      It's always worth pointing out that the UK government could have implemented this within the EU whenever it wanted. When I moved out of the UK to another EU country 5 years ago we had to meet a bunch of criteria before we got full right to residence.

      But bizarrrely the UK has always preferred to allow completely unfettered migration of cheap labour to the UK while simultaneously screeching like a cageful of raped apes about being overwhelmed by immigrants.

    3. NerryTutkins

      Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

      I am always a little confused by people who say this.

      It's just a question of where you draw borders. I grew up in a leafy Hampshire town in the 80s, and in my class at school probably about a third of the kids were from up north, or their parents were. There was a mass immigration, encouraged by Norman "Get on your bike" Tebbit, of people from the north to what was a relatively prosperous southern town. It put a lot of pressure on local resources, such as schools (not helped by the fact we had a Tory government, so state school spending was never going to be a priority) and forced up house prices, etc.

      There is freedom of movement within the UK. Now, my parents leafy town had maybe 15,000 people, and they lived in one of the nicest streets with maybe 60 houses. But there are SIXTY MILLION people or so in the UK. What happens when they all decide to leave their miserable towns with shuttered coal mines, and move to this town? Clearly these kind of arguments are ridiculous, but we see exactly the same ones made as to why the UK is going to be flooded with Poles or Bulgarians or whatever.

      I personally don't have a problem with European immigration, because (a) it's based on reciprocal rights (and I say this as a Brit who has worked in Germany, and now living in Portugal for last 7 years) and (b) Europeans don't typically blow themselves up on trains or go on sword-wielding killing sprees.

      Of course, the old 'keep us safe from terrorists' is another popular Brexit argument, yet they also insist on keeping a free travel area with Ireland. I suppose that's because there is definitely no reason to believe that Irish people would ever be involved in terrorism, eh? Unlike those swarthy French and Portuguese....

      1. Lotaresco Silver badge

        Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

        " I grew up in a leafy Hampshire town in the 80s, and in my class at school probably about a third of the kids were from up north, or their parents were."

        I'm one of the northerners who did that because in the mid-80s the government was putting people like me out of work in the north. I later took the option to explore freedom of movement in the EU and worked across much of the EU and EEA. The "Auf Wiedersehen Pet" life was a reality for many of us. Back then it was seen as "plucky Brits doing what they must to survive".

        Now that the UK has prospered from its EU membership and it's time to give something back, by encouraging EU workers to come to the UK to do the jobs we don't have people to do, some mean-spirited individuals have decided to treat these mostly pleasant and hard-working people with whom we share a common culture as alien invaders.

        I'm disappointed by my fellow citizens.

        1. NerryTutkins

          Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

          I often hear the refrain "it's just about numbers" from brexitters when it comes to immigration. The suggestion is that their problem isn't that the people are Polish, Bulgarian or whatever, only that there are already too many people (although many brexitters are on benefits and have 5 kids, so the 'too many' argument apparently didn't apply when they were busy popping out sprogs).

          I point out that the UK benefits from (for example) EU immigrants with engineering degrees, but they still insist there are too many people.

          So I point out that I have an engineering degree, but I now live in Portugal thanks to freedom of movement, thereby helping relieve the overcrowding in the UK. At which point they suddenly become angry at the fact MY education was paid for by the UK, but I am now working and benefitting another EU country!

          Honestly, it really isn't about numbers. Because not only do they hate foreigners with engineering degrees coming to the UK, they hate Brits with engineering degrees leaving too, and they have no problem with Brits have kids, even ones they cannot financial support themselves. In theiir perfect little world, they'd just be surrounded by English people "like them" (I am nothing like them). This is something many people talking about FoM don't appreciate - to your brexitter, stopping talented British people leaving is just as important as stopping johnny foreigner coming in.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

            It's fantastic being an immigrant.

            Moved from the UK ( where my physics PhD was worth 1/2 as much as a teenage financial adviser selling dodgy pensions ) to the West coast.

            Met up with a bunch of Israeli immigrants, hired some Chinese and Russian immigrants and built a company. We sell fancy surgical robots all over the world (except the UK)

      2. Kiwi Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

        What happens when they all decide to leave their miserable towns with shuttered coal mines, and move to this town? Clearly these kind of arguments are ridiculous, but we see exactly the same ones made as to why the UK is going to be flooded with Poles or Bulgarians or whatever.

        The arguments aren't so rediculous as you may think.

        Does your town have the infrastructure to handle the influx? If not, will the influx be limited until the infrastructure catches up? (Housing, roads, plumbing (water treatment, waste water etc), education, entertainment, medical, food supplies, energy/fuel....)

        An influx of residents can be great for any area IF the infrastructure keeps pace. Struggling small businesses can find they need more workers, there's more resources floating around, more opportunities etc.

        But if the infrastructure doesn't keep up, well.. You really have to live through it to grasp how nasty it can get. You need to be getting 4 people into a place with 2 small bedrooms that you can collectively barely afford to understand how wonderful a housing crisis is. Even more fun when the place is a run-down dump that the owner knows will be rented as people are desperate for a roof.

        It's truly a wonderful thing to experience, and really widens one's appreciation for what some problems can be like. But I'm going to be selfish, and hope you never actually have to experience it yourself or watch people you love go through it. You should experience it, but I hope you don't.

        1. NerryTutkins

          Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

          You completely missed the point.

          My old hometown had a huge influx of British immigrants from the north and to a lesser degree, London, during the 80s and 90s. And the immigration of EU citizens, by contrast, has been very small. No, it does not have the infrastructure, etc. And even now, there are far more UK citizens moving in from distant parts than there are Europeans.

          But my point was that there is freedom of movement within the UK. How does the town stop UK citizens coming in? It cannot.

          If you argue that market forces won't control immigration and so those in places that face being changed or overwhelmed by the number of immigrants, then that surely needs to apply to UK citizens too.

          So, how does a small market town in Hampshire stop the influx of northerners chasing better jobs and lower crime, etc. plus Londoners looking for a leafier, more pleasant place to live?

          The point is these factors are not eliminated based on national borders. They apply just as much within the country.

          Brexitters frame this in terms of numbers, but they don't care if towns services are overwhelmed by Brits.

          Like I said, it's not about numbers. They just don't like foreigners.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: Like Brexit or loath it...

            Didn't miss the point at all. This is exactly what we see in my own land.

            There are ways to control population changes in area where the local councils have some teeth.

            First, the release of land for construction. If the sewer/water/power etc infrastructure is in place then open up a trillion square miles for new housing. If the infrastructure only supports 1 square mile on the south side of town then only open that area up. If the infrastructure is ageing and won't support new developments then don't open up new land for development until the infrastructure is in place.

            Are several homeowners in large plots wanting to subdivide and put in some infill housing? Does the infrastructure support it? If yes, let them. If no, tell them no until the local systems can cope.

            Wanting to convert to a BnB? Can things cope? Grant permission, if not then don't.

            Is this really that hard? I guess it is, as many councils are still opening up land while there is work needed to make it functional.

            If your council wants to stop or restrict newcomers until things are right then it is with them, and it is with you to encourage them to make those restrictions. If you want to have large numbers of people coming in then do nothing. If you want to change it, get political.

            But at least in a few places I've seen where old housing is being replaced with new (large blocks that had maybe a hundred houses that are being re-done), systems have been installed to better cope with storm water and I think some sewer surge/storage tanks as well. And at least Wellington is finally increasing the water storage capacity (and the work done on emergency supplies (post Christchurch) has been amazing!)

  4. Tom 7 Silver badge

    Dont come here

    Its just a plan to get all the experts here and silence them!

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Dont come here

      Experts will only come here if they have failed to get into California sunshine and several other places that they would rather be.

      1. Paul Kinsler

        Re: [experts] ... other places that they would rather be.

        Broadly, experts will probably want to go where they can get employment/funding and/or support to pursue their interests. Making it easy to get into the UK is a minor issue in comparison.

        1. A K Stiles Silver badge

          Re: [experts] ... other places that they would rather be.

          Indeed - I'm intrigued to see how the government is going to replace the access to billions in research grants from European funding for which UK institutions are no longer going to be eligible...

  5. SonofRojBlake

    I thought we'd had enough of experts?

    When I was at school in the 1980s, it was already obvious even to a callow youth that science was NOT the career to go into if you wanted a comfortable life. Nevertheless, encouraged by a science teacher who'd never had a job outside of education, full of youthful ignorance and enthusiasm I started a science degree. I switched to engineering after less than a year when it became too obvious to ignore that the average science graduate is valued about as highly as a Tesco checkout operator (judging by the salaries being offered in job ads in the specialist press).

    My mistake was staying in engineering after graduation, instead of doing what most of my contemporaries did and taking their technical degree to an accountancy firm. Most of them are retired, I'm looking down the barrel of another ten or fifteen years' work.

    My former boss (a PhD polymer chemist) made damn sure none of his kids did science at uni.

    My former g/f, a science teacher, once handed me a stack of CVs to filter for her. The job being advertised was lab assistant at a school - a part-time menial position washing glassware, setting out equipment and ordering supplies. Annual take-home pay for a job in the UK in the 2010s was less than £10k. It didn't *require* a qualification beyond GCSE, and barely required that. Most of the applicants had science degrees, several of them had doctorates. Most didn't even get an interview.

    Science graduate jobs are already woefully underpaid. Importing qualified foreigners will depress wages further.

    1. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

      Science graduate jobs are already woefully underpaid. Importing qualified foreigners will depress wages further.

      Why would foreigners want woefully underpaid jobs?

      1. SonofRojBlake

        Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

        Is this a trick question? Because it seems blindingly obvious to me.

        OK, I'll bite: because even woefully underpaid *by UK standards*, it may be more than said foreigner can hope to earn back home. Especially if they can secure cheap accommodation by sharing with a large number of their countrymen in a dwelling designed for fewer people. They can then send hard currency home and secure an improved lifestyle for their family.

        1. Sweeper

          Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

          Ah, this is a new use of the words "hard currency" with which I was previously unfamiliar, to slightly paraphrase Arthur Dent. As someone paid in Sterling but living in Germany I can tell you that the UK currency is anything but hard. And if there is no constructive deal at the end of this year I strongly suspect that the current firming up that Sterling has experienced in the last few months will evaporate faster than an Alexander promise.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

            @Sweeper

            "As someone paid in Sterling but living in Germany I can tell you that the UK currency is anything but hard"

            Really? The ECB Lagarde and her predecessor pushing to do what is known to be necessary for the EU and to print more money plus the lack of economic cleaning up means that the Eurozone is in a bad place and a recession will rip off the very thin veneer of a working currency.

            On the other hand a lot of the GBP damage has been uncertainty. At some point the damage from that is more than any short term reduction from leaving the EU. And we probably are past that point.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why would foreigners want woefully underpaid jobs?

        I would rephrase this question as: "Why would foreigners want [possibly] woefully underpaid jobs in the UK, when they can get better, much better, or - perhaps - incomparably better - paid jobs in other countries?" Never mind the impression of being welcome in one country (or not).

      3. Kiwi Silver badge
        Unhappy

        Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

        Science graduate jobs are already woefully underpaid. Importing qualified foreigners will depress wages further.

        Why would foreigners want woefully underpaid jobs?

        In NZ we've had these wonderful people who, for a fee, offer good high-paying jobs to desperate people - people who have qualifications but can't find work in their part of the world.

        So they sell up, pay the fee, move to NZ and... What job?

        To survive, they quickly have to find whatever job they can.

        And we've had places offering training then work, only the quality of the training hasn't been great. The company even does the exams for the students to guarantee they pass, and the wonderful CV's get the students first-spot in the interviews for post-training jobs. Then the interviewer asks someone with certification bearing Cisco logo about some basic networking stuff in the lead up to a "how would you deal with?" type question, only to find the student with the amazing CV knows stuff-all about computers in general and nothing about networking beyond choosing an existing SSID and entering the given password.

        Qualified people don't travel for low wages, they take low wages because the hoped-for or promised jobs don't materialise.

    2. 0laf Silver badge

      Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

      Yep me too but I didn't realise early. Did a degree in Pharmacology and Biochem then found out that there was little work and what work there was was very poorly paid. Your analogy of a Tesco checkout operator is not wrong. I looked it up at the time (1999). Job as a graduate lab technician doing bloody analysis was the same as a check out operator at Tesco (~£14k). PhD grads were only getting £17k.

      Graduate roles with the big companies (Glaxo etc) were taking 300 appliants per post.

      Half of my class retrained into IT (mostly java programmers), the other half did PhDs or MSc.

    3. Stork Silver badge

      Re: I thought we'd had enough of experts?

      As they said in the nineties: why become a scientist if you can become his boss? (Other pronouns now available)

  6. Jemma Silver badge

    Conservatism

    Nazism with a human face

    You will of course note this doesn't apply to anyone outside the EU.

    Anywhere else you pay a slavery/colonial tax of £18,200 a person, my fiancee, Comfort, being Ghanaian - same as a certain Freema Aygeman. Ask me how I know. Really fun part is the reason I'll never be able to afford it is misdiagnosed fibromyalgia & Aspergers. I haven't been able to work for 12 YEARS due to the former. Thank you so much to the Conservatives for gutting the health service and education. You going to pay me the £2m in salary I'll have lost by retirement, Boris? No I thought not. If I could get my partner over here, with her energy and my knowledge, we could easily start a business and PAY TAXES - but we can't be nice to fuzzie wuzzies can we? Heaven forfend old chap...

    Brexit simply shows we are in a duhmocracy not a democracy - and be advised - I have an averaged IQ of 135 and a highest depending on the test of 142, stupid I'm not. It's also deeply scary considering the deputy fuhrer, sorry home secretary, is the right wing nut jobs right wing nut job. Even the Charlotteville lot would be suggesting she turns it down a tad..

    They have no respect for human rights, no understanding of reality re climate change and are basically 300 odd tea drinking, extremely polite mini-Trumps..

    Congratu-fucking-lations. Good luck with that. Thanks so much...

    1. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: Conservatism

      People like you are why Boris won.

      1. Faszination

        Re: Conservatism

        @SundogUK

        I'm dying to know, did your parents have any children that lived? Enquiring minds want to know....

      2. Jemma Silver badge

        Re: Conservatism

        Please explain your logic there sweetie. Because I can see no scenario (things happening-Ed) where what I said and supporting Boris von Braindead und Nazi could ever correlate (agree).

        To the point Rick Sanchez would have a headache..

    2. batfink Silver badge

      Re: Conservatism

      I do like to see a nice rant Jemma (having been known to rant on the odd occasion myself).

      I suggest that we need a Reg Rant scale of 1-100, so we can award points when we see a nice one.

      This wouldn't say whether or not we agree with the sentiment of the rant - just style points, basically.

      I'd rate this one at about an RR of 80.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Conservatism

      "I have an averaged IQ of 135 and a highest depending on the test of 142, stupid I'm not."

      A high IQ is an indication of being good at IQ tests. It doesn't actually prove that you are more intelligent than someone who doesn't score as highly as you.

      I'm not shooting you down because of your beliefs on Brexit, just trying to correct a misconception. (For the record, I voted remain).

      1. Jemma Silver badge

        Re: Conservatism

        Entirely aware of that. But there is a general indication of the ability of the person to think. However also a polymath. Have various skills in several different fields including mechanical engineering (upgrading autocycle designs, upgrading various classic engines to improve mpg), paleontology, environmental studies, population studies and various others as well as climate change recovery plans. There is also a correlation between the retard ratio (17-18% population by US Govt study) and the number of times the Conservatives get in - the difference between the two main parties in '17 was 17% - yes I know - not a direct one..

        The book Audit of War explains why I'd change my vote to remain (which makes a lie of the government right there) - British design and manufacturing has *always* been unmitigatedly shit, its just that we were first (arguable even there).

        Hate to imagine what the Conservatives will do in the future. I have a theory they fully expected the retard-ratio result (the difference in votes in percentage is within the retard ratio) - a distraction so they could further ass-rape the NHS and sell our private medical records (illegally in my case).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Correlation =/= causation.

          However, for history, look up those who put profit over health, and "medicine" paying to put *literal* poison in children's medicine. Many many times it happened. So yeah, certain groups may sadly put lives at risk more than others!

          1. Jemma Silver badge

            Re: Correlation =/= causation.

            Don't need to, they're called the Conservative party - as well as murdering NHS budgets every single time they got the chance, slicing education budgets so thin they looked like a salami after a fucking bad day and a fair bit of responsibility for Grenfell (let's clad the building so Jeremy & Cordelia don't have to look at concrete, might give them nightmares*).

            I honestly despair of Brexitstani idiots. OF BLOODY COURSE racists voted for it IT'S A RACIST POLICY, it was always supposed to be (best said in a Monty Python style, and most of them will be spinning in their graves faster than a Rover V8 (because its on the side of the road with the bonnet up)).

            They're not doing this to do you any favours either - not in a month of Saturnian sundays. They're doing it because being outside the EU will mean they can destroy workers rights and salaries that much quicker - yeah that'll be *your* salaries and your pensions and your everything else. Want your kids health records to be private? Want them to get a decent education, want to send them to university? ROFLMAO "yez really screwed the pooch on that one Morty"**

            This is literally how the Weimar Republic ended and the bloody irony is we weren't doing all that bad thanks...

            You just wait - in 3 years every company that can will be off this grey and unpleasant shithole and employment will go down faster than a Clinton intern (if you don't get the reference look it up). And consult your doctor you might be suffering from new variant PTSD Post Teenage Sociopath Disorder.

            You've just given the Conservative party the right to do whatever they like for 4 years.

            "Farewell, Human Rights Act,

            Fuck off NHS,

            You'll soon be a Trumpistani,

            Your brain's long been there" -

            Lyrics: Anon. Tune trad "Long way to Tipperary"

            * "Well, there's your problem blog" YouTube Grenfell edition (with trigger warnings that by deep load tonnage make the Yamato-class look like a coracle with delusions of grandeur)

            ** banned by law because someone might learn to think outside the Borisbox"

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

            2. Kiwi Silver badge
              Paris Hilton

              Re: Correlation =/= causation.

              You just wait - in 3 years every company that can will be off this grey and unpleasant shithole

              OOI, if you hate the UK so much why not leave? Seems like you've had ample opportunity, and even an energetic "partner" living somewhere else who could help you find a roof etc, and who you could build an amazing business with really quickly...

        2. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
          Flame

          Re: Conservatism

          Quote:

          British design and manufacturing has *always* been unmitigatedly shit, its just that we were first (arguable even there).

          I'd suggest you go fsck yourself :)

          I happen to work in manufacturing, and while it may have been crap years ago (rooms and rooms of horrid manual machines tended by some skilled folks and a bunch of time serving idiots), nowadays its ALL computer controlled with extra robots (the robots are stupider than the time serving idiots but at least they dont spend 30 mins in the bog and/or 3 days on strike every week)

          In fact if you try running a engineering place now without a bunch of PCs, CNC machines and the skilled staff to do it, you'll go bust faster than a high street store... unless you are into bespoke hand crafted widgets with the clients that will pay 40 times over the odds for them.

          We dont employ masses of people, 19 people attend where I loaf my day through(yesteryear is more like 55-60) but we still make a hell of a lot of stuff (my current project is medical parts that end up in the NHS)

          1. Wellyboot Silver badge

            Re: Conservatism

            I have to agree with Boris there, British quality manufacturing has always been at the top of the game and if you want a widget made quickly you don't have to go very far.

            However, what we're really world leaders at is knocking the reputation of our stuff by pointing out the weak points and not investing in up to date manufacturing methods & quality control until well after foreign competition has burned down half our industry.

          2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Conservatism

            British design and manufacturing has *always* been unmitigatedly

            Not so - we are pretty good at design. We're just very bad at making that into a product for the masses. How many times has world-leading engineering failed to find a backer here and so gone elsewhere?

            Lots.

      2. Kiwi Silver badge
        Holmes

        Re: Conservatism

        A high IQ is an indication of being good at IQ tests. It doesn't actually prove that you are more intelligent than someone who doesn't score as highly as you.

        I know people who as kids in school failed basically every test, had a reading age of 5 by the time they were 15 and so on, yet somehow made a right decision and are considerably wealthy.

        I know others who had great opportunities : natural talent, high IQ, private school from early childhood, given a great job in the family business and so on, and their lives are a mess - for those still alive.

        IQ helps, but it's not a guarantee. Just like hard work often gets you tired and regretful, while many who claim "if you worked harder you'll have what I have" never really learned what hard work actually is.

        My lowest IQ test score, BTW, was one that used a lot of US general knowledge. Cultural references, maths based in coin denominations (eg "nickel" and "dime' - "quarter" was obvious, obviously). That was a meagre 125. Highest has been over 150, but that used a lot of local knowledge and math questions in an area I was quite strong in back then. So I have tested with a 150+ IQ (maybe even over 160 but I can't be sure), but it's not helped me get a job. Real experience, and often a friend in the right place at the right time.

        And Jemma - what do you do with yourself? I know people who're quite ruined physically yet still work. I also know many "fit and well" people who're unlikely to ever work again, because they don't get out there or will turn down anything but their 'dream job' and won't lower themselves to start in a junior role despite less experience/knowledge than anyone else working there.

    4. Jemma Silver badge

      Re: Conservatism

      Correction:-

      Post Tory Sociopath Disorder

    5. SonofRojBlake

      Re: Conservatism

      "misdiagnosed fibromyalgia"

      Yeah, my stepsister's got that. It's a horrible disease that strikes without warning every time it looks like she might be required to do something she doesn't want to do. Attacks can come on even in the middle of one of the parties she's at most weeks, out walking one of her dogs etc.. Dreadful business.

      Re: IQ - strong contender for most meaningless metric available. (Only got one definitive result and that was from the paid for Mensa admission one - 161. Which means... some statistic about how many other people would have got that score, and literally nothing else. Nobody gives a shit what your IQ is, they're only interested in what you can DO for them. Harsh but true.)

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Flame

        Re: Conservatism

        It's a horrible disease that strikes without warning every time it looks like she might be required to do something she doesn't want to do.

        Thanks for a great laugh!

        I did wonder if it was one of those, since "Jemma" reminded me of a couple of people I know who have every excuse for not working you can imagine (and some even Jemma would see through!). I wasn't sure, was going to look it up, but was stopped by a serious attack of cantbebotheredism.

        There are a number of people in my industry who qualify for some level of "disability', including myself, yet remain working. It strikes me how many athletes there are like long-distance runners who lack legs to run with yet still get out and do it, while many able-bodied serially-idle people complain about how hard it is for them to get off their lazy arse and do something.

        It's not always easy to change your lot in life, but it can be done - especially if you're able-bodied, reasonably intelligent (at least enough to do your job), and tick any of the trendy "minority" boxes. Even easier if you have someone who you claim as a partner who has the ability to work with you and compliment your skillset such that your weakness is their strength.

        I live in a tiny isolated nation. Travel and resources are expensive. Our nearest neighbours are Australians! We don't have the likes of the Europe just a short distance over the water away, the nearest nation to us is somewhere near a thousand miles away. Yet we do so well with what we lack. How come people in the UK have all that opportunity at their doorstep yet moan about how hard they have it?

        Toughen up ya bunch of crybaby wimps!

        --> Yes, those who squander opportunity do piss me off. Plus it's midnight - sugary snack and cuppa tea time!

        1. SonofRojBlake

          Re: Conservatism

          I've only visited a couple of dozen countries. There are a few I've been to which I have no desire to return - Malta, the USA, Croatia, I've seen all I wish to see of them. Others, I'd happily return to on a regular basis - I love France, for instance, and if I could spend a week there every winter and another every summer life would be sweet.

          But there's only one country (other than the UK) that I've ever visited that I've thought "I could live here", and that was NZ. Colour me green.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: Conservatism

            But there's only one country (other than the UK) that I've ever visited that I've thought "I could live here", and that was NZ. Colour me green.

            OOI are you a motorcyclist? I love the look on the faces of visitors from other countries when we spend a day riding. Some truly awesome roads not far from me. I see more envy in an hour then most people see in a lifetime when I'm taking those tours, especially from the yanks :)

            Years back I met a couple with a campervan and 2 bikes. They were driving down the west coast. They'd stop at a town for a few days and get out on the bikes and explore the local roads before moving on to the next town. Eventually they'd reach the bottom of the South Island then move to the East coast and work back up north. Look like they had a good few years in them yet, probably still riding..

            If I ever get rich enough, I know how I plan to spend my last days. I've seen too little of my own country to worry about seeing another (though I could probably live in Canada or the UK, maybe some parts of France if my schoolboy French isn't so bad it gets me deported!)

            1. SonofRojBlake

              Re: Conservatism

              I'm not a motorcyclist. If I learned one thing in a month on the major trauma ward of my local hospital, it was "don't buy a motorcycle". I did drive a car from Christchurch to Queenstown though, and I know what you mean.

              1. Kiwi Silver badge
                Pint

                Re: Conservatism

                There's lots you can do to help prevent accidents, and the research strongly suggests those motorcyclists who start on dirt bikes when young are much safer drivers than those who start with SUVs.

                I've had at least one experience where anyone in a car would not have come out intact. It involved a sliding truck around a blind bend where I was already as far to the left as I could get - any car following would've had nowhere to go, no chance to avoid.

                Did have one with someone pulling out from a roundabout as well who I got behind, but I think while a car would've hit they'd have come out not to badly hurt.

                Never forget, your time in the hospital shows you those who get badly hurt, it doesn't show those who make it home without the slightest incident :)

                --> Thanks for time BTW. Paid of volunteer, I'm always grateful for medical and emergency people.

  7. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
    Meh

    Immigration

    So the Brexiters have been saying that leaving the EU is all about taking back control and reducing immigration from the EU into the UK and "them stealing our jobs". And now we have the Prime Minister saying "For some people, there is no restriction to coming to the UK".

    Gotta love mixed messages.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Immigration

      @A Non e-mouse

      Mixed messages? Control of our own borders to allow the people we want here vs every man and his dog from the promised land?

      1. fajensen Silver badge

        Re: Immigration

        You were negligent bordering on the incompetent border controllers before so why/how would that situation suddenly change? And. Who is "we"?

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Immigration

          @fajensen

          "You were negligent bordering on the incompetent border controllers before so why/how would that situation suddenly change? And. Who is "we"?"

          "we" is "you". Both equally meaningless and meaningful. But "we" as in the country electing a government to set the rules.

        2. Ken 16 Silver badge
          Trollface

          Re: Immigration

          Because the Home Office will have new better IT systems by the end of the year to apply those controls?

          1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: Immigration

            Home Office will have new better IT systems by the end of the year

            Does several bits of paper with scribble on them qualify? Because that's about all they'll get..

            (Along with lots of jobs for the hard-of-thinking who can be trusted to foolow their orders without much of a conscience - if we follow the US model anyway)

      2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

        Re: Immigration

        Mixed messages? Control of our own borders to allow the people we want here vs every man and his dog from the promised land?

        Don't come out with Daily Mail bollocks like that. You know exactly that the majority of immigants have been non-EU, and thus nothing to do with Brexit, and you know that we could have evicted EU cirizens that weren't pulling their weight, but our governments chose not to.

        You know the truth. You know we know the truth. You know that you're not talking to a brain-dead bunch of racists in some scummy pub somewhere. You're therefore trolling. Stop it. You're better than that. (I even upvoted you earlier! :) )

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Immigration

          @Jamie Jones

          "Don't come out with Daily Mail bollocks like that. You know exactly that the majority of immigants have been non-EU"

          This is an interesting problem I have pointed out plenty times. I have friends from the EU and they are happy they can come over and get office jobs etc. The same rights do not extend to my friends from the rest of the world. Most of my friends have come here on student visa then managed to stay but one of my friends particularly would be here tomorrow if she had the rights of my EU friends.

          "and you know that we could have evicted EU cirizens that weren't pulling their weight, but our governments chose not to."

          That is very true. Our gov (see Blair particularly) sold us down the river and left to him we would have the Euro too! The people get a say and we vote leave even with the opt outs we had. The buck now stops with our gov (they cant blame the EU) and the incentive to sell us down the river has been removed.

          Now we can implement border controls as is pretty normal in the world. The EU doesnt get special treatment

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Immigration

            When it comes to Brexit, CodeJunky is the least ibjective commenter I’ve ever seen on The Reg.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Immigration

              But at least (s)he understands why we're doing Brexit, which is apparently more than can be said for most of the pro-remain commenters.

          2. Jamie Jones Silver badge

            Re: Immigration

            "This is an interesting problem I have pointed out plenty times. I have friends from the EU and they are happy they can come over and get office jobs etc. The same rights do not extend to my friends from the rest of the world. Most of my friends have come here on student visa then managed to stay but one of my friends particularly would be here tomorrow if she had the rights of my EU friends."

            That sucks for her, I agree, and I don't disagree with any of your comment, but the EU said nothing about our non-EU immigration policy. The solution (that is still needed) is to reform the non-EU immigration rules. There's nothing in the governments bold new plan that couldn't have been done without restricting our freedom of movement.

            "That is very true. Our gov (see Blair particularly) sold us down the river and left to him we would have the Euro too! The people get a say and we vote leave even with the opt outs we had. The buck now stops with our gov (they cant blame the EU) and the incentive to sell us down the river has been removed."

            Well, while Blair wanted to join the Euro, it depended on the "five economic tests" being passed, and as only one ever was, he didn't persue it, so it's unfair to say we'd have the Euro if Blair had his way.

            Still, I agree with the rest of your comment.. But I bet you the government (whatever government of the day) will still try to blame the EU! :-)

            Many of us are watching closely to make sure the government don't sell us down the river to America!

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: Immigration

              @Jamie Jones

              "but the EU said nothing about our non-EU immigration policy. The solution (that is still needed) is to reform the non-EU immigration rules"

              Directly no, but when labour opened our borders wide they anticipated tens of thousands coming. This was so wide of the mark that UK infrastructure could not cope, an issue the Germans are learning after inviting Syria to move in. In their example a small village was expected to suddenly grow by more than double its population which just could not be provided for.

              "Well, while Blair wanted to join the Euro, it depended on the "five economic tests" being passed, and as only one ever was, he didn't persue it, so it's unfair to say we'd have the Euro if Blair had his way."

              Wasnt it Brown who came up with the 5 tests. The treasury and Brown being against surrendering the currency while Blair wanted it.

              "Still, I agree with the rest of your comment.. But I bet you the government (whatever government of the day) will still try to blame the EU! :-)"

              They will. Hell Thatcher still gets the blame so god knows how long the EU will be blamed.

              "Many of us are watching closely to make sure the government don't sell us down the river to America!"

              When it comes to cultural alignment we do have far more in common with the US than Europe. I dont want the country being sold to anyone, instead accept our differences (and be proud of them) and trade on our strengths.

    2. holmegm Bronze badge

      Re: Immigration

      It only appears like a mixed message to you because you imagine brexit to be racist.

      Choosing who you want to let in is precisely what was desired.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: Immigration

          .In only appeats to not be racist

          A simple question. Given that the vast majority of people in the 28 countries that make up the EU are of Caucasian background, how can a rejection of the EU as a political entity be in any way based on race?

          It's very noticeable that the most virulent, poisonous (and usually anonymous) attacks on Brexit always manage to bring race into the discussion, insisting that race is the driving factor.

          There's a word for people who see race as the cause of all problems. It's "racist".

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Immigration

            Did you even look at the links?

            For MANY, it's about stopping the "Muslims and blacks" from taking over the country.

            Don't expect the Brexitters to have any knowledge about how the EU works - "taking back control of our borders" was on of the main slogans. You know this, so why are you trolling?

  8. Lupus Curpsturgeon

    The point is not how many or how few are allowed in, it’s that it’s now up to the UK government to decide what that number is, based upon the needs of the country at a given time. Control was the point, not ‘immigration stops here’.

    1. hammarbtyp Silver badge

      1. control was always possible. it is just that successive governments chose to impose it

      2. Point to any system of government market control that has been a long term success?

      1. Lupus Curpsturgeon

        Regardless, the perception that immigration control is for the most part imposed upon the UK by the EU has been removed by Brexit. Responsibility for immigration is now transparently with the UK government, who will not have the EU to hide behind or use as an excuse for any policy it chooses to implement.

        People can vote accordingly if they don’t like what’s done, but they’ll know it’s the UK government that’s responsible for the decisions, not the EU.

  9. Mike 137 Silver badge

    Keeping their word

    Of course this may (or may not) actually happen. I can't remember a single promise or proposal in relation to Brexit that the government has publicised under any of the PMs involved that hasn't been broken or abandoned.

    I'm looking forward to the pantomime season - "Ali Baba and the 40 Prime Ministers"

  10. james_smith Silver badge

    Hey world class scientist, come to the UK. Post Brexit we can offer you:

    1. No access to the EU

    2. Mediocre salaries for research posts couple with a weakening currency

    3. Reduced funding thanks to a loss of EU funded projects

    4. Shaky infrastructure and underfunded public services

    5. Incredibly expensive housing costs

    6. Xenophobic politicians, media and public who despise experts

    What's stopping you?

    1. Noonoot

      Indeed. Why do Brits suck "Boris and co's" crap up?

      You can take your effing visas and shove them up you know where.

    2. seven of five Silver badge

      You forgot the lovely weather

      1. Ken 16 Silver badge

        EU countries can supply weather

    3. Marco van de Voort

      Some of that is what I thought. "Easy Visa" is an easy to implement solution to clear some last hurdles, and also attract the students before they become "World Class Scientist" (the bit where you educate an hundred to find one nugget)

      To cherry pick world class staff, primarily you need to give potential staff good salaries and somewhat secure prospects. World Class staff coming for multi year tenures don't mind visa that much, since they can be handled by the uni (or research institutions) bureau for that. And those know which points to pressure for the real good ones.

      Easy visa is the methods to drag in reams of (usually /paying/) hopefuls into your education system to bolster the base, to partially fund it, and with hopefully some cream rising to the top eventually.

      1. batfink Silver badge

        And a welcoming environment. Which the UK certainly isn't at the moment. Just take a poll of your foreign-looking and/or foreign-sounding friends how many of them have been shouted at in the street.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          @batfink

          "Just take a poll of your foreign-looking and/or foreign-sounding friends how many of them have been shouted at in the street."

          So far none. Not even my friend from the EU who is seriously against brexit.

          1. batfink Silver badge

            Re: @batfink

            Perhaps my friends are just more offensive than yours then junky :)

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @batfink

              @batfink

              "Perhaps my friends are just more offensive than yours then junky :)"

              I hope not because its just not called for. Nobody should be shouted at in public for nothing, and thats not just over race. I hope your friends dont have to put up with it any more.

              1. batfink Silver badge

                Re: @batfink

                Agreed. Unfortunately the whole Brexit palaver seems to have emboldened all the racists out there, and they seem to think that Brexit equals "We won't have no furriners/funny-coloured people/muslims/whatever no more after we leave, so you'll all be gone".

                Yes I also live in hope that this dies off in the coming months. But we'll see.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: @batfink

                  "Agreed. Unfortunately the whole Brexit palaver seems to have emboldened all the racists out there"

                  Possibly. Like I said I havnt seen any nor have my friends. The usual racism/xenophobia I hear of is against foreigners who will now take advantage of us and god help Americans. But the abuse against our own is the worst, if your English especially. I know these attacks are only directed against the majority of the population to vote leave and anyone who agrees with them but the sheer intolerance for their own people.

                  Forget telling people to go home, these intolerant buggers tell us to leave the country!

          2. james_smith Silver badge

            Re: @batfink

            The day after the Brexit vote, my Turkish girlfriend was told to "fuck off back where you came from" by some knuckle dragger who overheard her speaking to her Mum on her mobile.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @batfink

              And that could just as easily have happened were she in the UK on holiday. Some people are just bigots, and don't need the EU as an excuse. Turkey, incidentally, isn't in the EU.

              1. james_smith Silver badge

                Re: @batfink

                "And that could just as easily have happened were she in the UK on holiday."

                Oh I see, that makes it all OK then.

                And I don't expect the knuckle dragger could tell what language she was speaking.

            2. Kiwi Silver badge
              Pint

              Re: @batfink

              The day after the Brexit vote, my Turkish girlfriend was told to "fuck off back where you came from" by some knuckle dragger who overheard her speaking to her Mum on her mobile.

              I find it interesting that you complain about someone's seemingly racist comments... By using something that itself has been used as a racist insult...

              When we throw insults, we're no better than the person we're complaining about who threw insults we find offensive... :)

        2. PapaD

          Forget Foreign sounding, try not sounding British enough

          I've been shouted at/questioned about where I came from.

          I'm a big, bald white bloke with a very slight northern accent.

          I'm from a little town in between Wigan and Bolton, i was born in Ormskirk.

          But because i don't sound like whatever the people shouting at me thought a Brit should sound like, I got told to go back to where i came from (which, in all honesty, isn't a huge trek - its about an hour on the train).

          Idiocy reigns supreme in the streets of the UK

    4. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Indeed, many scientists (often from the USA or other English-speaking countries) came to the UK, lured by the kind of funding the EU provides. Few countries have the equivalent of the ERC grants, that give top scientist several million euro to do great research over a five-year period. The UK was often chosen as home base due to (much smaller) language barriers. If the UK is to retain such scientists, the government must do a lot more than just allowing them in. Without matching funding from the government, they will much rather come to the EU, I guess. It is very sad to see the difficulties we now face keeping colleagues based in the UK in a follow-up project to a very successful Horizon 2020 project in which they played a key role.

    5. osakajin Bronze badge

      Because shit holes are relative.

      1. Adair Silver badge

        But then so are swanky apartments supported by modern infrastructure, Michelin starred restaurants, fabulous baristas, glorious weather, and a warm welcome from the locals.

    6. fajensen Silver badge

      You forgot to mention the dilapidated facilities, build to the strict quality standards of the WWII War-Effort and still retaining most of their original paintwork & plumbing.

      1. Jemma Silver badge

        Paint & Plumbing

        You forgot the asbestos...

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just the scientist or their family?

    If Home Office is looking for scientists of high calibre from India and other countries, the question is - - > the scientists are not slaves to be cherry picked, they come with wife / children and in several cases want to bring their parents to live with them (end of life scenario which drove a recent top medical guy to Australia). What does the small print say? And as someone else pointed at if this is government getting the control over numbers, the number that is stipulated now is unlimited. How is that a controllable number? Switch on switch off?

    Utter hogwash.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just the scientist or their family?

      3 guesses.....

      "Conservative MPs have voted down a House of Lords amendment to Boris Johnson’s Brexit legislation, which would have guaranteed family reunion rights for unaccompanied child refugees after EU withdrawal.

      Despite appeals from children’s charities, MPs rejected the safeguards in the Withdrawal Agreement Bill by a margin of 342 votes to 254 – a majority of 88. All of those voting against the measure were Tories." - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-vote-result-child-refugees-dubs-amendment-eu-bill-commons-a9297056.html

  12. Noonoot

    Exceptional talent?

    But only endorsed by a select few organizations (on the gov list)

    I foresee endorsements for sale..... I fear.

  13. xyz

    I know, I know....

    They could have a TV programme, hosted by the comedy PM himself, called Britain's got talent! People can call in and vote for who they want to let in!!

    1. Noonoot

      Re: I know, I know....

      or they could just get the golden buzzer

    2. JimPoak
      Unhappy

      Re: I know, I know....

      The down side to this Boris effectively told the world and his dog that the English are stupid and aren't worth educating.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: I know, I know....

        @JimPoak

        "The down side to this Boris effectively told the world and his dog that the English are stupid and aren't worth educating."

        Where the hell did that come from?

      2. fajensen Silver badge

        Re: I know, I know....

        The English People making him Prime Minister *could* cause him to form that opinion, yes.

    3. holmegm Bronze badge

      Re: I know, I know....

      It would be better than the previous system.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So will we make these lovely scientists and egineers wear some form of ID to stop knuckle dragging Brexiters throwing them off Beachy Head as 'bloody foreigners' taking their jobs'.

    Can I suggest an armband?

    Maybe keep 'em in science ghettos for their own safety.

    (Godwins Law fulfilled)

    1. Lotaresco Silver badge

      "Can I suggest an armband?"

      Back in 2016 when our wonderful fellow citizens started to treat me as a pariah because I can speak "forrin" and I like to travel and work in other European states I designed my own armband. Blue, with a yellow five-pointed star and the letters "EUDEN".

      1. Intractable Potsherd Silver badge

        @Lotaresco: that is truly scary. Good luck to you in the future.

  15. adam 40 Bronze badge

    Outflow

    This quote: "there are concerns that if there is an outflow of EU citizens to Europe, the UK will face shortages in some job markets."

    Raises an interesting point about free movement of labour pre-Brexit. Yes, we were not in control of who arrived from the EU for whatever reason.

    But more importantly, we were not in control of when they decided to leave, (in some cases) having made themselves indispensable.

    With immigration controls in place (albeit with a very porous border) we should be in a much better place.

    The EU citizens already here who feel secure are staying (and are welcome), those who don't are leaving.

    Period. End of. ;^)

    1. FrogsAndChips Silver badge

      Re: Outflow

      And how do you plan to control when they decide to leave, post-Brexit? Confiscate their passports?

      1. Lotaresco Silver badge

        Re: Outflow

        "And how do you plan to control when they decide to leave, post-Brexit? Confiscate their passports?"

        We're gonna build a wall. A big beautiful wall. The best wall ever. It worked in Berlin, it's working in Israel.

        -- A B d'Pf Johnson, 2020

  16. John Smith 8

    So... Does this apply to IT jobs? Are we about to be swamped by every large population in the world?

    1. holmegm Bronze badge

      "About to be"?

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    an unlimited immigration program

    it is simply untrue that it is "unlimited". It might be called naive, misguided, irrational, haphazard, unrealistic, risky, dangerous, rash or laughable (and possibly plenty of others) but definitely not "unlimited", which looks like a screaming tabloid headline.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: it is simply untrue that it is "unlimited"

      What's the limit then?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: it is simply untrue that it is "unlimited"

        well, one obvious limit is the criteria as applied across the population of Earth (currently limited to a few billions, I heard) which happens to be a fairly limiting factor. Second is: calculations of those "hopeful" to come to this wonderful, open land and likewise open society, on the eve of brexit and post-factum. Unless there's something VERY specific about their research and / or career they can get in Britain which they won't get in US or EU (and I'm sure there are such fields of research, but obviously, not all of them), why would they chose UK?

        p.s. I'm pretty sure this immigration program, nevermind the un-limits, will turn out to be another Boris wind-blown farts, like that one about reopening old railways. UK is not a great match against the draw of the US, or the daily life comforts of the EU.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: it is simply untrue that it is "unlimited"

        > What's the limit then?

        In the same way that broadband is 'unlimited' the limit will be the rate at which a single Immigration Service clerk, based in Huddersfield, can stamp the paperwork. For extra efficiency there will be an assistant specially trained to refill the ink on the stamp pad as it starts to run out.

  18. Crisp

    Why not save money and not have a border all together?

    What have borders ever done for us?

    Except cause long lines at airports.

    1. BigSLitleP Silver badge

      Re: Why not save money and not have a border all together?

      Yup. We should get rid of nations as well. And currency. And companies.

      Now we just need to figure out what to replace them with....

  19. Version 1.0 Silver badge

    This will be wonderful!

    Britain will be full of the world’s top scientists, researchers and mathematicians, all of whom will become experienced bricklayers, plumbers, experts at car repair, and can spend their summers picking fruit, planting potatoes, and making jam so that at least they will have something nice to eat in the winter.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: This will be wonderful!

      Britain will be full of the world’s top scientists, researchers and mathematicians, all of whom will become experienced bricklayers, plumbers, experts at car repair, and can spend their summers picking fruit, planting potatoes, and making jam so that at least they will have something nice to eat in the winter.

      I haven't been a "top scientist, researcher" or "mathematician". but I have done plumbing, bricklaying, car repair (and truck, bike and even boat repair - stuff anyone able to read at a "top scientist' level shouldn't have too much trouble with).

      And last I looked, planting potatoes and picking fruit wasn't quite on the same mental level as "rocket science".

      In my childhood anyone with a back yard had a garden, even the most useless members of society grew at least some of their own produce. For me, when I've been stuck I find it much easier to pop out to the garden for bit a or find something to fix on a bike or... Anything different that's easy and lets the brain meander along until it accidentally wanders up to a solution. It's amazing how much thinking you can get done while weeding a veggie patch.

      I've known a Brit rocket scientist - a truly exceptional and capable fellow I miss terribly. He could certainly do all this and so much more with his time.. But him aside, are the rest of your scientists so useless that anything out of their own field leaves them stumped?

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: This will be wonderful!

      >Britain will be full of the world’s top scientists, researchers and mathematicians, all of whom will become experienced bricklayers, plumbers, experts at car repair, and can spend their summers picking fruit, planting potatoes, and making jam so that at least they will have something nice to eat in the winter.

      Love the sarcasm! Personally, Boris seems to be wanting to make the UK more of a B Ark as I not met many "top top scientists, researchers and mathematicians" who are in any sense of the word "practical", several I know even have problems with everyday things such as: dressing, ties, shoe laces and brushing their hair.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge

        Re: This will be wonderful!

        as I not met many "top top scientists, researchers and mathematicians" who are in any sense of the word "practical", several I know even have problems with everyday things such as: dressing, ties, shoe laces and brushing their hair.

        To be fair, many of the plumbers, electricians, builders etc I know tend to dress rough, quickly get dirty, and haven't used a brush or a comb on their hair in ages. And shoe laces? Who wears shoes? It's either work boots, gumboots, barefoot or slipons. None of them wear slave collars/corporate nooses.

  20. holmegm Bronze badge

    Um

    Amazing. Self confident bluster indeed ... on your part.

    The only reason that you find this confusing is your belief that Brexiters are racist. I'm sure it is very difficult to let go of a belief in which you are so heavily invested.

    The incongruity at which you laugh is that which is betwixt reality and your beliefs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
  21. batfink Silver badge

    Look on the bright side

    Jennifer Acuri will be the first on the list under the new rules. An obvious candidate, given her many scientific talents.

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      Re: Look on the bright side

      "She was a blonde haired beauty with big dark eyes, and talents all her own sitting way up high, way up firm and high" - Bob Seger's Night Moves, reworked for Boris.

  22. DontFeedTheTrolls Silver badge
    Flame

    Good to see the Brexiteers still swallowing the blue pill on a regular basis.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @DontFeedTheTrolls

      "Good to see the Brexiteers still swallowing the blue pill on a regular basis."

      Amused to hear a matrix reference being used in place of any actual contribution to discussion

  23. heyrick Silver badge

    ready to support them to turn their ideas into reality

    Well, that would be a first.

    I mean, isn't that the reason why many leave the UK?

  24. jeffty

    Controlling immigration was never that easy...

    The home office currently divides immigrants into two categories - EU and non-EU.

    EU migrants are subject to freedom of movement and the number of controls we have against their migration to the UK or against their rights to reside are fairly limited to some checks around self-sufficiency and removing people only in limited circumstances. We're unable to increase the scope of these controls without leaving the EU and breaking treaties and existing agreements.

    Non-EU migrants are subject to any scheme we choose, or any treaty we agree with the country of origin. It could be a traditional quota, skills based, income based, points based, there could be temporary right to reside only, no granting of rights to claim benefits, pick and choose as politically fashionable. We could stop it completely if we wanted to.

    Yet for all of the last 47 years we've been part of the EU, Non-EU migration has made up the majority of migrants to this country. I'm fully aware this is a incredibly simplified view on immigration (as both groups come to the UK for different reasons and stay for different periods of time associated with those reasons), but every government since Heath had the ability to halve immigration to the UK if they so chose to do so, without leaving the EU.

    This is why (for me personally) the arguments around leaving the EU to "take back control" of our own borders never stacked up. We have that control for over half of all migrants to this country, and it isn't exercised extensively. I can only conclude that our politicians can't exercise that control correctly, or choose not to do so.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Controlling immigration was never that easy...

      @jeffty

      "Yet for all of the last 47 years we've been part of the EU"

      The EU hasnt existed that long. 27 years. Created 1 Nov 1993

      1. voster

        Re: Controlling immigration was never that easy...

        "The EU hasnt existed that long. 27 years. Created 1 Nov 1993"

        In the context of the commenter's discussion (freedom of movement), the UK signed up to this with the EEC in 1973, so this is moot nitpicking.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Controlling immigration was never that easy...

          @voster

          "In the context of the commenter's discussion (freedom of movement), the UK signed up to this with the EEC in 1973, so this is moot nitpicking."

          I wasnt particularly picking at his comment I was just fixing the time frame issue. It may not seem particularly important but then there are people who think the EU really did exist halfway back into the last century.

          I mostly dont have any issue with what he said its pretty good.

    2. Noonoot

      Re: Controlling immigration was never that easy...

      They've never excercised any of these rules or control it is all much too difficult for them. Much easier to pick names (of a specific group) out of a hat and then send threatening letters to them.

  25. Snarf Junky

    Does anyone else just feel like puking the closer we get to leaving the EU and the more this pair of ass holes spout?

  26. Tom 7 Silver badge

    Brexit

    does nothing it says on the tin.

  27. SVV Silver badge

    Brain drain versus brain gain

    The main problem with this plan is that the bestest and the brightest tend to be very aware of politics and social issues, as well as those fancy equation thingys. Thus, they will be very aware of the fact that the current government opportunistically whipped up anti-immigrant sentiment with simplistic slogans in order to win votes. At the moment this has taken the form of "close the door" rather than "kick them out", but the second sentiment is likely to arise once the door has been closed. Add in a hostile environment policy that forces people to prove their entitlement to many basics of existence such as medical care and bank accounts and it soon becomes apparent that future settlement here is going to feel grudging and come with big bureaucratic hassles. For top talent used to being headhunted rather than having to apply for things, this is all going to look very unappealing.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The buzzword is "uncapped", not "unlimited". It seems that the as yet undefined points-based system for immigration to the UK from 2021 will also be uncapped.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In addition to the visa family hurdles and lack of funding why would anyone want to come to brexit Britain with family and have kids pay 9000 pounds tuition fees and mass austerity and no access to the EU where things are much cheaper or free?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re. why would anyone want to come to brexit Britain

      well, I'm sure there are some young, brainy Russian, who want to pursue their academic careers but equally enjoy life's comforts - and don't mind helping their motherland, purely as a sideline, mind you...

      ...

      but then, I'm pretty sure they're already here, so not to worry :D

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Nobody from the first world, but plenty from the third (ie India). We are fast becoming third world Britain.

  30. G R Goslin

    Help

    Help, help. There's so much pie in the sky, I can no longer see the sun

  31. YARR

    Article is factually incorrect

    UK population (2020) is about 67.7 million, it was about 63 million at the last census in 2011. That's a net growth of 4.6 million people in under 9 years, or over 0.5 million (~ the population of Bristol) per year, most or all of which is due to immigration.

    Despite all those immigrants, business leaders are still demanding more, but this time it really will fix our economy once and for all! Having our immigration policy decided by "business leaders" has worked so well in the past... for them, but not for the majority. All the while, the cost of housing for ordinary workers is more unaffordable than ever.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Linux

      Re: Article is factually incorrect

      UK population (2020) is about 67.7 million, it was about 63 million at the last census in 2011. That's a net growth of 4.6 million people in under 9 years, or over 0.5 million (~ the population of Bristol) per year, most or all of which is due to immigration.

      Bloody hell.. I thought we had it bad, but that meagre "4.6 million" is pretty much the population of our country!

      (Of course, we wouldn't have had it so bad if the infrastructure had kept pace!)

      --> Closest thing we have to wide-eyed surprise!

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Article is factually incorrect

      >UK population (2020) is about 67.7 million, it was about 63 million at the last census in 2011.

      And was circa 58M(estimate) in 1997 ie. before the (Labour) government threw the doors wide open...

      Much of the UK's current problems concerning shortage of schools, hospitals, housing, transport systems etc. can be traced back to this daft decision, made entirely by Westminster without asking the electorate and endorsed by every government since, without also making the investments necessary to support such a large increase in population...

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The linked report may not be followed

    The article links to the Migration Advisory Committee's report. Priti Patel has said that this is advisory and they may not heed it.

    The report does not recommend adding tradeable points to the Tier 2 visa, one already in use to bring in many engineers (such as myself) in.

    Also, points already exist in the current system, and has done so for at least a decade, hence the "tradeable" part of the points being the real innovation. It's for this reason that all previous political messaging about a points-based system had been utter bollocks, seeing as one already existed. Adding the modifier "Australian" was more accurate.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The linked report may not be followed

      Brexitters don't know the meaning of the word "advisory"

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Something like this should do the trick; delete * from pbs_routes; However I strongly suspect it will become another digital transformation project (£) in order for the Indian outsourcers to milk the cash cow that is the home office.

    Worked on PBS a few years back, everyone knew that the home office would want to alter their immigration rules just before a go live date. Therefore most of the business logic was actually held within the database for flexibility. Did lead to a flaky system!

    Keep getting asked if I'll consider moving to Croydon as a permie, which will never happen ;-)

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Big cold bowl of chunder

    AKA: Brexit

  35. Torchy

    Quitters need to suck this up.

    This is just what the quitters did not vote for but they were warned and ignored the sensible folk.

    The government will set to on cutting business "red tape" soon and one of its primary targets is the European Working Time Directive and its laws pertaining to statutory holiday pay. Kiss paid holiday time goodbye and as a bonus all business's will save 9% plus on costs on the wage bill.

    Suck it up quitters, you are not going to get what you voted for.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Quitters need to suck this up.

      Kiss paid holiday time goodbye and as a bonus all business's will save 9% plus on costs on the wage bill.

      Interesting.. Do you not have unions over there? "Civil rights" movements/organisations? No worker protection?

      I'll offer my services then. We certainly get paid leave over in this tiny little island nation. If we can do it, I'm sure you Brits can!

      1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: Quitters need to suck this up.

        Do you not have unions over there?

        Sort of - most prevalent in public service (NHS/local government et. al.) In private industry they are still present but so heavily neutered so as to be mostly irrelevant.

        Sure, they needed their power curbed (the unions in the 1970 were far, far too powerful - the British car industry is a shining example of failure due to a number of factors - a major one being industiral action by unions. Also a failure to invest and bring in modern working practices - again partly due to the power of the unions) but I think that the balance has swung too far in the opposite direction.

        1. Rol Silver badge

          Re: Quitters need to suck this up.

          I think we are underestimating how big a factor the incompetence of UK management has been and still is.

          When managerial posts are filled with ex-school associates, regardless of their inabilities to even dress themselves in a morning, you are setting the industry on a course for ruination. Of course, that is exactly how you destroy a nationalised industry, while skilfully pointing the finger at the unions, who you have goaded into playing the patsy.

  36. Jamie Jones Silver badge

    We didn't need to be out of the EU for BoJo to implement this

    We didn't need to be out of the EU for BoJo to implement this... He seems to have neglected to make that clear.

    Damn careless of him - he's made it sound like it's only by leaving the EU that he could execute this plan... I'm sure that wasn't his intention! (!)

  37. Andy3

    Oh FGS, how do you get 'unlimited immigration' from this? It's a programme LIMITED to top-flight engineers and scientists. Burger-flippers and the serial unemployable will be turned away. What's 'unlimited' about that? I sometimes wonder what Register is up to.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Well, not quite unlimited but higher levels of non "top-flight engineers and scientists"...

      Remember a year or so back when the government changed the rules over immigrants working in the NHS, effectively creating a new category for them, without any reduction in the size of the pool for the category they were in originally? Net result, yes the NHS got its workers plus lots more non-NHS workers got their visa's...

  38. MachDiamond Silver badge

    I can't wait

    until this is all done and dusted. All of the hot items will be settled eventually. The UK is going to continue being a first world set of lands with lots of things to take pride in. It's the uncertainty that has everybody in a hoohoo. What a difference a span of ocean makes.

    1. Jamie Jones Silver badge

      Re: I can't wait

      If that's not sarcasm, that's nice of you to say so, but i'm struggling to see it.

      However well things go, we'll still be held back by a self-induced disablity.

      Even the Brexitters mantra now is "we can make it not as bad as it could be". The land of eternal riches is now too far fetched even for them.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Pint

        Re: I can't wait

        However well things go, we'll still be held back by a self-induced disablity.

        You have a few options.

        Leave.

        Stay and cry like a little bitch.

        Stay and work within the system to make life better for you and yours

        Stay and work to change the system to make life better for you and yours.

        The 2nd option seems to be quite popular on El Reg. You're smarter than that Jamie!

        1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: I can't wait

          :-)

          You forgot "Stay, cry like a little bitch, and work to change the system to make life better for everyone"

          All work and no play makes ...etc.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: I can't wait

            You forgot "Stay, cry like a little bitch, and work to change the system to make life better for everyone"

            All work and no play makes ...etc.

            You're correct, I did forget that one. I don't care much myself so long as people are trying to make things better for them&theirs. If we all try to make this world a better place, we'll make many mistakes along the way but eventually we will get there. And it doesn't take huge efforts, just lots and lots and lots of little but relevant efforts.

            There's a weekend coming up. Please take some time out to enjoy it, even if you are stuck in winter :)

            1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: I can't wait

              Yep, crying like a little bitch is just my way of release - it's something I follow closely, and have been active in.

              As an opposite-example, we'll be affected by the choice of future Labour leader. As I'm not a Labour party member, I've got no say in the selection process, and as such, I'm not bitching about the candidates / process, because I'm not following the news on it at all. When someone is chosen, then I'll get to it again!

              More importantly..... WInter?? I literally had my aircon on last night, it was so hot ( [Old] South Wales). I was out and about in town today wearing shorts, T-shirt, and sandals. Seriously!

              Worlds gone mad, I tell you! But anyway, cheers! You have a good one too!

              Jamie (Ex EU-Citizen)

  39. CommanderGalaxian
    FAIL

    Of course, none of this actually required leaving the EU - well not unless you want to pay the imported Scientists from poor countries a fraction of what you would have had to pay before.

    And how very neo-colonialist and parasitic of Boris - deplete developing countries of ttheir brightest and best for Make Benefit of Glorious British Empire 2.0.

  40. STLplsthx

    Hypocritical?

    So immigrants can poach well paid high skilled jobs while flooding the market with "cheap labour" thereby reducing wages in certain fields, but preserve the mucky low paid jobs for Brits?

    Ha ha ha.

  41. Snipp

    From across the pond

    The British have put us Americans in an awkward position. We're used to being the drunk uncle in our relationship. We're belligerent, obnoxious, and soil ourselves repeatedly. You good chaps have countered with, "hold my pint."

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Pint

      Re: From across the pond

      You good chaps have countered with, "hold my pint."

      Well done! Here, have another! :)

  42. ryokeken

    Is there a guide for this thread? I’m lost

  43. Sanlorenzo

    Confident blustering...

    Countries don't bluster, Johnson's do, especially the one with PF who's friend calls him 'Al' or 'Alex'. Were it not so utterly immoral and corrupt, it would be funny that a man who can't stop lying then spends our money on employing a professional liar to help him get elected.

    1. Kiwi Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: Confident blustering...

      a man who can't stop lying then spends our money on employing a professional liar to help him get elected

      I'm sorry, you've just described all male politicians from the lowest village councillor and up. Can you be a bit more specific?

  44. Kiwi Silver badge

    Kiwi>But I'm not a Brexit supporter.

    I never said you were. Sorry for any confusion. Still dislike your posts on the use of abusive language. Having been on the end of such stuff all through school in the 70s.

    "codejunky>yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).”

    I still say this statement is a lie. Finding remain voting racists? Evidence or it never happened.

    You seemed to be using me as proof of Brexit supporters being racist - which would mean that yes, you were saying that..

    You may not like my calling you out for your abusive and racist statements, but that's not my problem.

    From your posts, you are one who voted "remain". You are also very clearly racist in the way you wish me to stop using the language of my culture. You are the proof that there are racists amongst the remainers.

    In my country, the Maori people suffered many decades of abuse where the use of our beautiful language was not permitted. Kids caught using Maori words in school (including their own names should they have been given a Maori name) were subjected to physical punishment.

    And yet here you are saying that we cannot use Maori words. And you try to make out I am the bad one. You are the one who wishes me not to use the native language of my land, yet I am somehow the one who is racist. Codejunky was right about you.

    Rangi paki āpōpō ā, ka puta atu ahau ki te whakangahau.

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC1809/S00008/mostly-paki-fine-weather-for-maori-language-week.htm should help you to translate that - even without following the URL. Can't make it clicky for now as any URL's in my posts are triggering recraptcha sorry, you'll have to cut and paste.

    Please enjoy the weekend, and please take your racist garbage elsewhere. Don't try to call me 'racist' or 'abusive' when you're trying to take us back to the times when then Pakeha colonists were trying to rid the world of the Maori language and made it a crime to speak these words I have typed above. I may not be old enough to have experienced that directly, but I missed out by just a few years and the memory was very raw with others I grew up with. In my area we were ahead of the times, I was taught Te Reo Maori even in early school (late 70s). In other areas, even in the mid 1980s children were punished for speaking Maori (see https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/maori-language-week/history-of-the-maori-language)

    This language is an important part of our culture, of our heritage, the links to our tribes. A lot of people suffered trying to keep the culture alive, racist abuse that was going on even in my childhood. Though the Maori teachers at my school taught us the language, people outside of school did not appreciate it being spoken still.

    Any reasonable person would understand the offence you cause when you want to stop me using the language of my culture.

    I am not the one at fault here, I am not the one acting in a racist manner. It is you who is yet another Brit living in the UK wanting the Maori language to be suppressed.

    (I was not born Maori, but where I grew up I spent a lot of time on several of the local Marae, farmed on Maori land under the guidance of the local Kaumatua, ie I was somewhat immersed in the culture - which is a big part of our national identity)

    1. Dr_N Silver badge

      Kiwi> You seemed to be using me as proof of Brexit supporters being racist - which would mean that yes, you were saying that..

      Nope. Wrong. You were responding to my post calling out codejunky for his lying.

      No other reason I responded to your posts. In fact I had ignored them up til now.

      Especially the "Paki" ones. But please don't try and reverse ferret them. If you defend use of uk-specific racist terms by out-of-contexting them, then do you not think you are just enabling and adding to the problem? We've seen this over-and-over since the Brexit and Trump wins.

      Kiwi>.From your posts, you are one who voted "remain".

      Nope. Wrong again. My voting rights were removed. I had no say in Brexit what-so-ever. Even though it is directly affecting me. Which is why I get annoyed by the lying brexit elites.

      And I don't need to post my credentials to speak about racism as you appear to think is required. (But you are VERY much barking up the wrong tree.)

      Bye now.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge
        Pint

        Kiwi> You seemed to be using me as proof of Brexit supporters being racist - which would mean that yes, you were saying that..

        Nope. Wrong. You were responding to my post calling out codejunky for his lying.

        No other reason I responded to your posts. In fact I had ignored them up til now.

        Dishonest or intellectually dis-qualified?

        But lets take a look at history... In this post you quote me, talk about my calling people "Paki", quote Codejunky's comment about some Brexit supporters being racist, then say "I didn't have to scroll far" - the context being you were using my post to show codejunky was lying (how you figure that I still don't know - you're claiming I am racist, have claimed I am a Brexit supporter, and then quote Codejunky saying some brexit supporters are racist as being a lie...)

        When we go back a little further to my post, we see that I was not at all responding to you but responding to Codejunky's querying how you believed he was lying. Going to his post, he claims that you falsely accuse him of being racist without adding anything to the conversation. I can see a pattern emerging there. Wonder where I've seen you falsely accusing someone else of being racist...

        Barely into your post and we've already picked up a couple of falsehoods. Lack of honesty or lack of intelligence?

        Especially the "Paki" ones. But please don't try and reverse ferret them. If you defend use of uk-specific racist terms by out-of-contexting them, then do you not think you are just enabling and adding to the problem?

        But the context was that "Paki' is always racist and is always a racist way to refer to Pakistani's. I showed that in my nation's language "Paki" has a different meaning and also that Pakistani's in other cultures refer to themselves as "Paki" or "Paki's". It's not racist to show that other cultures have other ways of doing things. It is racist for someone seemingly from the UK to be limiting what words people in other cultures can use. Smacks of the old colonialism and of the bad days (not too long ago and not nearly long enough ago :( ) where speaking Maori in schools could get you physically beaten by staff (and could get you fired in the workplace etc).

        Those were in response to a thread started by Solidsquid where s/he mentioned "Paki" was racist. BrownishMonstr - a person who can "ethnically be considered as" Pakistani, responded that the term is not racist when used "in an otherwise normal conversation". sed gawk took it upon themselves to speak for other people and say it was racist and deserved prosecution and violence, and I responded to question why they'd expect violence to be carried out against people for using a term Paki's also use to describe themselves, and to point out it's racist to try to speak for other cultures and limit how they are allowed to refer to themselves.

        How is that "out-of-contexting them"? And don't you think that your elitist limiting of how people may use their own language is "adding to the problem" much more so than my using my nation's language or the terms people of other cultures have invited me to use to refer to them? Do you honestly believe it's up to you to define what words other cultures may use? You claim you don't need to "post your credentials" yet you are doing an awful lot of speaking for others and pronouncing how we can/cannot use our language.

        Kiwi>.From your posts, you are one who voted "remain".

        Nope. Wrong again. My voting rights were removed. I had no say in Brexit what-so-ever. Even though it is directly affecting me.

        Well, your posts indicate you'd've voted "remain" if you could, so I'm still basically correct. I guess you live outside the UK (but perhaps close, France or somewhere else in Europe?) Unless you have a criminal conviction that prevents you moving, that is by your choice. I made a mistake in assuming you're a UK citizen/were entitled to vote and voted "remain" but I am still correct in that you would've voted "remain" if you could. I have no problem with people voting what they believe - I have a little bit of a problem with people NOT voting (unless that's what you believe - I'd love to have an option of "none of the above" on many ballots), and a lot of a problem with people who could've voted and encouraged others to vote who're vocal about the wrong choice being made but who didn't get off their arse and encourage other people to vote their way. That's how you win elections, help people to vote and do your best to educate them to see your POV and agree with you. If you just lazily wander up to the booth and expect everyone to mark their ballot your way then you're already a failure at standing up for your beliefs.

        --> Anyway, may your day be Paki (pure) joy and the weather Paki (sunny).

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

          1. Dr_N Silver badge

            PS codejunky's lie:

            codejunky>yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).

            He has never found, met or conversed with any racist remain voters. It's a pure fiction on his part. They may exist somewhere*, but i'm pretty sure he's never met one. It's just part of a post-brexit leaver narrative to try and justify the xenophobia they've whipped-up in England. (Classic Whataboutery.)

            *In numbers so small it's in the realms of homeopathy.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

              1. sed gawk Silver badge

                Nonce

                Is a "number used once" in crypto circles, or a paedophile in general uk slang usage.

                It's interesting that you've developed a new found appreciation of the use of a racial slur in the UK, on a UK hosted message forum, but please go on, I'm sure it gladdens your heart to use such language.

                P*** is a term typically used towards people of Pakistani descent,[1][2] and as a racial slur is often used indiscriminately towards people of perceived South Asian descent in general.[3] The slur is used primarily in English-speaking countries. In the United Kingdom and Canada, the term "P***" is commonly associated with "P***-bashing", violent attacks against people of South Asian origin, chiefly Pakistanis.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paki_(slur)

                A man faces being sent to jail if he uses a specific term of racial abuse in public.

                Michael Guilfoyle, 31, is believed to be the first person in the UK to be banned from using a particular word - "P***" - under the terms of an anti-social behaviour order.

                https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/racist-faces-jail-under-first-british-court-order-to-ban-use-of-a-word-100057.html

                Incidently the word for pure is "Pak", I grant you there is indeed a Maori word with the same spelling.

                I think we both understand that's not what you mean by it.

                Incidently I didn't threaten you, I cautioned you against using that word in the UK, due to the likely consequences. In other words, I explained that using that word in the UK is not okay.

                I do rather like the idea of you trying to explain that you are only speaking Maori, somehow I don't think it will wash, but you are welcome to try.

                For the record, I do think your use of language is deplorable and deliberately provocative.

                1. Kiwi Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: Nonce

                  For the record, I do think your use of language is deplorable and deliberately provocative.

                  The same can be said of efforts to stop people using terms they wish to describe themselves.

                  Wikipedia needs to talk to people of Pakistai descent. I've shown that there are some who consider it quite a fine term to use for themselves. I talk with quite a few on a regular basis and this question has been raised and yes, not an issue. But hey, you continue to dictate to them about words they may use to link to their culture/heritage/ancestry if you wish. I've actually taken the time to speak to people about how they prefer to be addressed, and am doing as I have been invited to do.

                  As to El Reg being UK-based, yes - head offices are, but there's a hell of a lot of us who've been here for years (including people on their staff) who have never been to the UK, even if a large part of our ancestry hails from those parts.

                  Incidently the word for pure is "Pak", I grant you there is indeed a Maori word with the same spelling.

                  I think we both understand that's not what you mean by it.

                  You need to do a hell of a lot more thinking then, especially if you think you're qualified to tell other people how they may speak or what language they may use.

                  1. sed gawk Silver badge

                    Re: Nonce

                    "The same can be said of efforts to stop people using terms they wish to describe themselves."

                    You can describe yourself anyway you like, even using deplorable language, you've shifted from [1] my "mates" like it, to "its my Maori" heritage. You simply like to troll people as it gives you a little thrill, please continue to do so.

                    "Wikipedia needs to talk to people of Pakistai descent." Firstly, what information do you possess that supports the notation that Wikipedia is unavailable to edit by people of "South Asian origin", I would contend that, Wikipedia is indeed editable, and thus your strawman has blown over on a windless day.

                    But hey, you continue to dictate to them Ah yes, the faceless mass with a single point of view, that you are kind enough to interpret, and broadcast, you hero.

                    I've actually taken the time to speak to people about how they prefer to be addressed, and am doing as I have been invited to do. You've been invited to refrain from using that slur on this forum, and seem unable to do so, so I find your claim lacking in credibility.

                    You need to do a hell of a lot more thinking then, especially if you think you're qualified to tell other people how they may speak or what language they may use.

                    Your flimsy attempts at defending your deplorable behaviour are lacking any credence.

                    Hint - from OP: "please go on, I'm sure it gladdens your heart to use such language.

                    Please use any language that you wish, it's unlikely to alter my perception of you and your behaviour.

                    ttfn

                    1. Kiwi Silver badge
                      Boffin

                      "The same can be said of efforts to stop people using terms they wish to describe themselves."

                      You can describe yourself anyway you like, even using deplorable language, you've shifted from [1] my "mates" like it, to "its my Maori" heritage. You simply like to troll people as it gives you a little thrill, please continue to do so.

                      You have no clue who I am or what my experiences are, yet you claim to know what I think and feel? Well..

                      Again, you and that other person try to limit what others can say, much like the bad old days when people using non-English languages received physical punishment for it, yet you say I am the one who is in the wrong?

                      I'm not Maori, and never said I was. I did say I grew up around Maori people (hard not to do over this way). I'm Pakeha (loosely pronounced "Paki-hah" - you might want to spout some nonsense about how that's "racist" as well) with a little something else I'll leave out. I've also not changed what I've said - from the outset I was showing it was a word in Maori as well as Urdu (I'll grant that "Pak" is more correct to define as "pure" or "Holy"). I invite you to show such a change but I expect it'll be like that other fella claiming evidence of "codejunky" lying - which is yet to materialise.

                      No, you're not racist.. Pakistani's can't call themselves "Paki" because that offends you, but they're the ones who are racist not you.. People can't use words from their culture that you don't like, but it's their problem not yours. Truly disgusting. Don't try to turn your failings on me and don't point your filthy racist fingers in my direction.

                      I've shown more than once how people of Pakistani descent use "Paki" as a name for themselves. I've shown you how Paki's in other countries use that for themselves and also invite others to do the same. How is it so hard for you to understand that it is YOU who considers it "racist" and not other people. Why are you unable to grasp that YOU are being racist by limiting other people's language choices?

                      "Wikipedia needs to talk to people of Pakistai descent."

                      Firstly, what information do you possess that supports the notation that Wikipedia is unavailable to edit by people of "South Asian origin", I would contend that, Wikipedia is indeed editable, and thus your strawman has blown over on a windless day.

                      I don't know much about Wikipedia. I occasionally find a result on it from search terms and I sometimes see links to it here and elsewhere, but I've generally paid no attention to it beyond that. I do recall hearing that people trying to get articles about themselves corrected aren't able to as they're "not a knowledgeable source on themselves" or something like that.. I'm not involved with WP so why should I know or particularly care?

                      But if WP claim "Paki" is a always racist term when all of the Paki's I've spoken to in person say otherwise (as well as those I've seen from other countries) then I guess it's not so easy to get WP to correct their mistakes.

                      But hey, you continue to dictate to them Ah yes, the faceless mass with a single point of view, that you are kind enough to interpret, and broadcast, you hero.

                      Ah yes.. You who dictates the words entire cultures are or aren't allowed to use.. Something like the old cast-iron frying pan sitting at the bottom of the never-cleaned chimney from a large oil-fired furnace calling the brand-new glass cookware "black".

                      I've actually taken the time to speak to people about how they prefer to be addressed, and am doing as I have been invited to do.

                      You've been invited to refrain from using that slur on this forum, and seem unable to do so, so I find your claim lacking in credibility.

                      Who's word do you think I am going to take? That of someone I talk to quite often, or that of some random racist on the internet who says they're not allowed to use their own terms? I talk with these people often, so I'll take their invite. I don't often talk with you so I'll turn down your invite, sorry. Thanks for asking but I have a competing invite from people I actually know and respect.

                      Oh and it's not a slur. I suggest you take some time to learn about what is and isn't a slur.

                      Your flimsy attempts at defending your deplorable behaviour are lacking any credence.

                      Again, I'm not the one saying that people in other cultures are not allowed to use the words they choose to describe themselves.

                      Hint - from OP: "please go on, I'm sure it gladdens your heart to use such language.

                      Please use any language that you wish, it's unlikely to alter my perception of you and your behaviour.

                      Why would it? I have been told by people of Pakistani descent that "Paki" is fine (confusing them with Indians is NOT fine). We've had this conversation in person. You? You're some random person on the internet who uses Wikipedia to support your argument.. Choices.. Who to listen to.. The people who live in the culture and use the term, or some one who uses Wikipedia to say they can't use the term...

                      Nup.. Still can't see why I should change. Oh - and the terms people I know have asked me to use? I wouldn't say it "gladdens my heart" to use these terms, and I never needed to think about it before these threads, but now it does give me some little form of warming to know I'm doing something that pleases people I care about and also upsets self-righteous racists in the bargain.

                      OOI, do you use racist terms like "Jew" or "Brit" or "Scot" or "Aussie" or "Kiwi" or.....?

                      1. sed gawk Silver badge

                        Right back at you snowflake.

                        You seem to struggle with reading comprehension, again, telling you to speak freely, is not restricting your speech. Disaproving of your persistent use of racial slurs, is not restricting your speech.

                        As so often there is a useful xkcd https://xkcd.com/1357/

                        Jew not a racial slur, it refers to a follower of the teachings of the Torah. If you call me a racist one more time, you win a free toaster.

                        And sure, you've never heard of Wikipedia. Despite the many stories here in this esteemed organ.

                        You are expending a lot of energy needlessly, I'm more than happy with my assessment of your behaviour. I don't need your acceptance, deep down we both know what you are.

                        Use as awful language as you like, try to pretend an globally editable resource is the exclusive preserve of my opinion. I'm not that important, Wikipedia doesn't give a single shit about me, but you can edit it, why don't you share your wisdom with a global audience. After all as a "white new zealander", sorry a "Pakeha", of course you are totally speaking on behalf of the Pakistani diaspora, and totally not flagrant alt-right trolling.

                        Enjoy, feel liberated with your behaviour, I don't care how you behave, it reflects poorly only on you.

                        And the word racist, has a meaning, but keep projecting onto me.

                        I don't intend on responding to the next poorly constructed message you spew forth, so lets end it here, but feel free to keep shouting into the ether.

                        May you find good mental health.

                        1. Kiwi Silver badge

                          Re: Right back at you snowflake.

                          Boy, some people in these places love to be dishonest.. Oh well here we go again....

                          You seem to struggle with reading comprehension, again, telling you to speak freely, is not restricting your speech. Disaproving of your persistent use of racial slurs, is not restricting your speech.

                          It is you who claims that these are "racial slurs". Not the Paki's I know, not the Maoris I know, but you and a few others. Yes, some pages also seem to make it pretty clear that this is a UK thing, but I'm not in the UK nor are the Paki's I know.

                          So please explain to me, though I know you won't :

                          How is using "Paki" to refer to a person of Pakistani descent a 'racial slur' when that very Paki has confirmed that this is how they wish to be referred to?

                          It should be very simple for you to explain it, as you do go on.

                          Oh wait, it's so hard for you to do because it isn't a "racial slur". I am using the terms I have been asked to use.

                          And sure, you've never heard of Wikipedia. Despite the many stories here in this esteemed organ.

                          And here we see your dishonest twisting of my words or your severe lack of reading comprehension.. Please do show me where I said I had "never heard of Wikipedia"? Of course you won't be able to because it was not done..

                          You are expending a lot of energy needlessly, I'm more than happy with my assessment of your behaviour. I don't need your acceptance, deep down we both know what you are.

                          Great. Glad you accept that I am the one being honest in this conversation, and you're the one who is twisting stuff or simply incapable of understanding basic stuff - like other cultures have other views.

                          Use as awful language as you like, try to pretend an globally editable resource is the exclusive preserve of my opinion. I'm not that important, Wikipedia doesn't give a single shit about me, but you can edit it, why don't you share your wisdom with a global audience. After all as a "white new zealander", sorry a "Pakeha", of course you are totally speaking on behalf of the Pakistani diaspora, and totally not flagrant alt-right trolling.

                          WTF?? Can you rephrase that in English please? Do you somehow think that I am in some way responsible for the content of Wikipedia?

                          As to "alt-right", you do realise I am a rabid leftie1 don't you? Or is that the level of your "assessment" of me? I full-on meet the definition of "pinko commie" but not quite the "hippie' modifier. Depending on your definition I am even "communist".

                          "Alt-right".. The man's lost it!

                          Enjoy, feel liberated with your behaviour, I don't care how you behave, it reflects poorly only on you.

                          I'm not the one trying to define how entire cultures, and nations, may speak to or about one another.

                          And the word racist, has a meaning, but keep projecting onto me.

                          If you do not wish to be called 'racist' then do not act racist. It really is your choice.

                          Meanwhile, the kettle in the kitchen may wish to be called a vacuum cleaner, but while it looks and acts like a kettle I shall still call it such.

                          May you find good mental health.

                          I do. You should try it sometime, before you pop a blood vessel or two. Clearly you need some help.

                          1 I may be more "left-leaning centrist" or "just left of centre" or somesuch, but I am - and always have been - left-wing in my politics

            2. Kiwi Silver badge

              PS codejunky's lie:

              codejunky>yes some racists supported brexit (I found some supporting remain too).

              He has never found, met or conversed with any racist remain voters.

              That's a fairly strong statement to make, and I would like to see your evidence. Lets leave out anyone he's met where he did not know that person was a racist remain voter (ie he could not honestly claim knowledge of their vote AND/OR could not honestly claim knowledge of their 'racial views'), just keeping things to those people Codejunky has knowingly spoken with about their views on 'remain' and race matters OR those people CJ has read/heard who hold racist remain views and have published web sites or posted comments to a site/"letters to the editor" etc.

              By making your statement that CJ is lying in such a situation (especially as you yourself now admit that there likely are racists who supported 'remain', few though they may be), you are claiming to know the views of every person CJ has met and every poster of comments/letters/blogs/articles that CJ has read.

              Further, to claim CJ is lying you are claiming to know how he interpreted each of those comments. If CJ interpreted something written as a 'remainer' having racist views (be it from bad writing on their part, or tiredness/intellectual incapacity/misinterpretation of the intended meaning of words from his own biases), then he is not lying in his statement of what he believes that person said. Mistaken, but honest. Even if his mistake comes from the most dishonest beliefs or intentions of his heart, he is still not lying if he believes such a person was a "racist remainer"

              There is no basis for your claim of lying on CJ's part. I've demonstrated strong evidence of dishonesty on your part just using your own words and things you've responded to, but all you can claim about CJ is your belief in the small numbers of 'racist remainers' and how who CJ has met/read/heard.

              We're still waiting for your evidence of CJ's lying.

              1. sed gawk Silver badge

                Bluntly, no-one voted for no-change for racist reasons.

                Plenty of people have expressed a view that people who don't look the same as them should not be in this country.

                You can call it what you like, it's fairly plain what that motivation should be called.

                codejunky, doesn't come across as having racist motivations imo.

                He's failed to engage with any of the specific questions put to him by myself and others, however.

                I wouldn't describe that as dishonest, but simply the lack of an actual benefit to leaving the EU.

                However we are seeing the effects play out in real time, so perhaps he, and the other leave supporters may yet be proved right.

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  @sed gawk

                  "Bluntly, no-one voted for no-change for racist reasons."

                  Fear of the rest of the world. Anything from the Chinese, Russians, Americans and one memorable comment that the rest of the world would gang up to screw us over. I get labelled racist for wanting border controls.

                  Unfortunately the bar for racism/xenophobia is so flexible it goes from the offensive to the general depending on who is using it.

                  "Plenty of people have expressed a view that people who don't look the same as them should not be in this country."

                  Yup. However I have read some pretty disturbing ones from remainers that they attribute as thoughts for brexiters. If we said anything like that we would be called racists (and some are as you point out).

                  "codejunky, doesn't come across as having racist motivations imo.

                  He's failed to engage with any of the specific questions put to him by myself and others, however."

                  That is far from my intention, what specific questions do you have for me and I will try to answer them.

                  1. Dr_N Silver badge

                    Re: @sed gawk

                    @codejunky

                    Ah there you are!

                    Where are all these apocryphal racist-remain- voters you've met?

                    Hiding with the 76 Million Turks who've descended on England's green and pleasant land?

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: @sed gawk

                      @Dr_N

                      "Ah there you are!

                      Where are all these apocryphal racist-remain- voters you've met?"

                      I was enjoying watching someone else take you to task. I also would like to thank the AC who has obviously been reading the comment threads too-

                      https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/all/2020/01/28/boffin_uk_visa_program/#c_3965040

                      Why is it ok for remainers to make racist comments which they use to attack leave voters? Why is it ok for remainers to go on about gollywogs and blackface? That particular culprit here-

                      https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/containing/3953662

                      A leave voter would have been called out racist for that. But as racism tends to be based on colour it really stands out that gammon is apparently acceptable. God help the older white man who is already prejudice against in this but gammon is nothing but a slur on skin colour.

                      You also continue to severely misrepresent me-

                      codejunky also seems to favour: "Why should I have to pay taxes?!", "Hordes of dark folk are coming !!!”, Source: https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/all/2020/01/28/boffin_uk_visa_program/#c_3965448

                      Since I have made it clear I have friends from all over the world (some of those would come under your words dark folk) who are great examples of immigration (for those who got in) and others who would love to live in our country if they could (fingers crossed on is currently applying for her visa). So since I have no problem with people coming here but you continue to insult my friends (the dark folk) there does seem to be a race related issue in your thinking.

                      "Hiding with the 76 Million Turks who've descended on England's green and pleasant land?"

                      Here we go again. I am not the racist you want me to be no matter how hard you fantasize about me. What do you have against the Turks? I know a lovely teacher over there (no desire to leave) who is a credit to her school and I am sure any school that would employ her. So what is your problem?

                      1. Dr_N Silver badge

                        Re: @sed gawk

                        @codejunky

                        Yet again. Zero proof of these made-up racist-remainers. Just another Vote.Lie misdirection. Add it to the list of other myths and fantasies you've help spread.

                        Anyway Job done. You won. You can enjoy the fruits of your labour now.

                        1. Kiwi Silver badge

                          Re: @sed gawk

                          Yet again. Zero proof of these
                          lies from CJ

                          Still waiting..

                    2. This post has been deleted by its author

                2. Kiwi Silver badge
                  Pint

                  However we are seeing the effects play out in real time, so perhaps he, and the other leave supporters may yet be proved right.

                  For the sake of all involved, I hope so. I hope those who voted "remain", or would've done given the choice, are proven absolutely wrong - for it would be a shame for the "remainers" to be proven right!

                  (before anyone complains - if the "remainers" are proven right that means that it would be a bad thing for the UK to have left the EU, for the sake of the UK I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case)

  45. Rol Silver badge

    We're all in it together. Me in one of my palatial homes. You in your tent at the side of the M32

    "OK sir, here are the projected costs for the two solutions. The first is to generate a highly capable workforce from our own citizens.This will require upgrades to education and a reintroduction of apprentice schemes. The costs approximate to an extra £25 Billion a year, with the new workforce becoming available within five years and increasing in both skills and numbers each subsequent year. I estimate, by 2030 we will be self sufficient in qualified workers in all subjects"

    "Mmm?!"

    "The second solution is that we denude poorer nations of their skilled workers, and re-home them here. This would require a budget increase of £10 Billion a year to be invested in growing housing stock and expanding infrastructure to accommodate the increase in numbers, but we will be adequately supplied with the expertise our industry requires within two years"

    "And the third solution..."

    "Sorry, Mr Johnson. I only have the two..."

    "And the third solution, before I was so rudely interrupted, is that we run with the second solution and pay sweet FA into expanding the infrastructure or building any new homes."

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @Rol

      @Rol

      Unfortunately that second (and third) option occur in and out of the EU. In the EU the massive migration from poor countries has left places without enough young people to keep them going. Its the same situation as the Polish problem in the UK where 5-15 people would hole up in a one bedroom house and work for what we consider a pittance but they consider well paid.

      It will be interesting to see how that plays out. However there are some positives from it.. I know an African couple who live and work here yet have started up a project back home using her skills as an optometrist to help villages.

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