Sod 3G, that can go, but don't rush to turn off 2G, UK still needs it – report In the dash to move everything to next-generation services, mobile operators mustn't be too hasty to switch off 2G, a report by industry bodies has warned. As Blighty starts to deploy 5G networks, operators are beginning to make noises about switching off older networks to free up much coveted spectrum. However, 2G is still …
2G services were/are run by Vodafone, O2, Orange and T-Mobile; the last two having merged and taken over by BT. Three used Orange's network for 2G so they don't have a presence.
Using the old tried and tested technique of the Government persuading (bullying) BT to maintain a public service commitment paid for by private customers, Boris should get BT/EE to maintain basic 2G network coverage and allow O2 and Vodafone to turn theirs off to save money or use the frequencies for 5G Tweak the 2G roaming settings so that any remaining 2G phone/SIMs can roam onto BT/EE.
Job done; Vodafone and O2 get a freebie, BT carries the can again and the political problem goes away.
About year 2000 BT manglement decided that as that new-fangled mobile stuff didn't use wires it wasn't really anything to do with them so they merged Cellnet and BT Mobile, the customer facing business as O2 floated it as a separate company. Then Telefonica, who did grap the fact that mobiles were phones, bid for it and bought it.
Eventually a later BT management that realised mobile was an important aspect of telecoms discovered that they didn't have and player in the market. For a while they set up another business, also called BT Mobile, presumably to the amusement of any old BT Mobile hands still left in O2, to flog other people's services. The only way to fix this humiliating consequence of the depredations of their idiot predecessors was to buy EE which had been cobbled together out of bits of some of their previous competitors. To do this they had to use a substantial chunk of ptheir shares as payment to Deutsche Telekom.
I reckon that even by BT's appalling standards the original decision to get out of the mobile business was particularly egregious although it did justify the low opinion that those working in the original BT Mobile held of Big BT as it was known there.
As part of EE rolling out the mandated 95% geographic UK coverage (basically putting up lots of masts in the most rural parts of Scotland) for the Emergency Services Network (see El Reg ad passim about this pork barrel and its lateness) they are refreshing their 2G network.
As also mentioned in the article, removing the 2G networks will also break the late, expensive and generally regarded as pointless, Smart Metering rollout.
Unless forced, 2G will continue to be used for decades like with all older technology that there is a reliance on. A switch off date, and a reasonable date at that needs to be set, and stuck to. Otherwise we are not going to see 2G switched off in our life times.
So? Seeing 2G switched of is not on my bucket-list, so it can stay for my lifetime ;-)
We can just keep 2G running as the baseline mobile technology. And at the same time 3G can be phased out as 4G takes over. Much like FM radio is still there even though DAB exists and will be replaced with DAB+ in due time. Like FM radio 2G is simply the lowest common denominator, and will be for quite some time.
As it it the cost of replacing a 2G only devices is huge, not just phones but all sorts of connected devices (smart meters are mentioned, but there a many more like burglar alarms, alarm buttons for elderly, loads of sensor equipment...) That will all need to be replaced. However, 3G devices (and there are far less of those) can mostly fall back to 2G. (And those that can't probably will actually benefit from an upgrade to 4G making it an easier sell.)
And to be honest, I doubt providers will want to switch of 2G because they are still making good money of all those devices out there. Forcing those customers into replacing equipment which is all over the country isn't going to go down well. A lot of them will start taking a serious look at possible alternatives (like Sigfox and LoRaWan) if they need to replace their hardware anyway.
The problem with DAB (and DAB+) is it doesn't work as well as FM. This might seem irrelevant in a discussion of 2G phase out but it highlights a problem with obsoleting older technology -- it not only renders a lot of equipment unusable but its replacement may not measure up to the capabilities of the older technology.
2G is still used by devices that need to be low power that transmit relatively small amounts of data intermittently. As such its actually more robust than newer technologies, just as copper wire pairs tend to be more robust than wireless for low speed traffic so long as the wires are not damaged. Those nascent standards that will duplicate or improve on its capabilities such as LoRaWan have yet to prove themselves -- they may well be the eventual replacement but until proven capable and phased in over a period of many years they're just pipe dreams.
>Set a date, and stick to it.
>
>Unless forced, 2G will continue to be used for decades like with all older technology that
>there is a reliance on. A switch off date, and a reasonable date at that needs to be set, and stuck to.
>Otherwise we are not going to see 2G switched off in our life times.
Now replace 2G with EU. It will be easy they said...
What if you don't want a ruddy snooping "smartphone"? I still use a robust waterproof feature phone with a real keyboard - just to make calls and send texts. I tried a "smart" phone but it was a pain to use."Gestures" for goodness sake! It didn't respond to the gesture I used most frequently in frustration at it doing unexpected things I hadn't asked for.
It's about time utility rather than entertainment value or commercial advantage became the key criterion for defining critical national infrastructure.
Can you point me in the direction of models? We have two Samsung B550H in this household but I really got on well with my Sony Eriksson K800i and Nokia 6220 Classic back when they were cool. 3G, tethering, Opera, GPS (in one) and half decent cameras with proper flash. I've been tempted by KaiOS phones but they're few in number and a bit pricey...
M.
Samsung do the B2710 - that's 3G and feature phone candy bar style. I know because I've got one. The earlier builds i.e. my last one were more robust but this one is still supposedly waterproof (IP67) etc.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-B2710-Sim-free-Unbranded-Black/dp/B0043SXVLK
Blimey, £148? That's a lot of money for a phone with a lower spec. than our B550s, which were about £70 when new some four or five years ago. Actually, I think the wife has a B2710 as her work phone.
That's the dilemma though, isn't it? For £160 (RRP) you could get a Nokia 4.2 which is a pretty decent spec. smartphone, or a very similar N3.2 for £130. There are smartphones available well below £100, though some of them are dubious quality. The Nokia 1 plus (to stick with a theme) seems to have a street price of around £80.
Nokia's KaiOS phones are an interesting bunch; I note that the 8110 "banana" phone is down to around £45 these days when it used to be £80 I think? They're just launching the 2720 flip phone too, at £89 pre-order. Hmmm.
Ooh, I've just spotted a Nokia that looks very much like our B550H phones, but with 4G and KaiOS - the 800 Tough. Pre-order at the moment, but looks like it'll be around £110...
M.
To enable wi-fi calling , your internet must be above 1mg. There are lots of areas who do not get this speed. I currently get around 0.5mg.
I was with Orange, and had a phone signal. I was moved across to EE who then promptly switched off 3G in this area. There is 2G if I go outside....lovely with Welsh weather! I can also get 4G if I drive the car half a mile. The electricity supplier tried to force an electricity meter on me but there was no signal, which had them scratching their heads!
I live a mile off a major road in Wales....
Excellent! Way to force people to buy new phones, even though their old (and not-so-old) phones work perfectly well. And all those poor saps who allowed themselves to be bullied into having 'smart meters' installed will have to have them upgraded too! (rubs hands with glee at the thought of all that profit to be made).
Switching off 2G just as the smart meter installation rate passes 80% would be a good way to get rid of the smart meter craze!!
Note there are a large number of older phones (and tablets) that require 2G for calls and networking. In many areas of the UK 2G is the only available type of network. (Also a number of burglar alarm systems and fire alarm systems use SMS to call for help.)
Realistically 2G should not be disabled for at least 20 years with at least a 10 year countdown.
However much money the network operators may save will be outweighed more than 10 to 1 by the costs to 2G users that will need to buy new equipment.
Realistically 2G should not be disabled for at least 20 years with at least a 10 year countdown.
Indeed. What we could do today, though, is to mandate that new devices (phones, smart meters, security systems, etc.) that use the cellular network must support 4G/5G/whatever, so that no new legacy kit that needs 2G is being installed. Then, when the 2G network is shut down there will be hardly any devices that need it still working.
It's just like the digital TV switchover: if we'd banned the sale of analogue-only televisions a decade before the switchover there would have been far fewer complaints when analogue broadcasting stopped.
@ Duncan Macdonald
However much money the network operators may save will be outweighed more than 10 to 1 by the costs to 2G users that will need to buy new equipment.
Much more than that, as mentioned in the article, some of the devices needing replacement cost well into 10s of thousands of quid - a few into the hundreds of grand range. That is, unless TPTB mandate that all car manufacturers must retrofit a new comms module without screwing the owner for some exorbitant fee.
@ dajames
It's just like the digital TV switchover: if we'd banned the sale of analogue-only televisions a decade before the switchover there would have been far fewer complaints when analogue broadcasting stopped.
Indeed. It's a complete farce that there were still analogue only sets being sold well after some areas had already gone fully digital - and only a short time before the last of us changed over. I can foresee a similar issue with radio - I wonder how many current DAB sets are also DAB+ capable ?
"I wonder how many current DAB sets are also DAB+ capable ?"
Mrs Brown wanted a DAB radio/CD player a year or so back. It took some effort to find a something that was reasonably priced for the kitchen and had DAB+. The cheap stuff, forget it. High end stuff, most (bit not all!!) had DAB+
(Why she insisted on the CD player, and actually uses it, I have no idea. Every CD we've ever bought has been ripped to the server in the attic and can stream to devices all over the house)
One day the server will fall over / the hard drive will fail / it will generally be unavailable to the network.
At which point Mrs Brown will say - "I'm glad I still have my CD Player"
Don't get me wrong, I'm the same - everything on media servers, but I make sure the CDs and DVDs are easy enough to get access to....
That just means you're using the originals as a form of backup. What about the media that you lack originals of, say digital pictures of the family? Can't trust the SD/CF cards to last forever in unaltered/usable state.
Need a more robust strategy, IMO. And once you have one, you no longer need the physical media. If it's free to store, keep them, surely--but play the what-if game harder for where you lack originals (or the originals are subject to damage (polaroids that you've scanned in but are slowly fading with the years, etc).
Main server, backup server, backups on site, backups off site, etc.
"Realistically 2G should not be disabled for at least 20 years with at least a 10 year countdown."
Heh. I agree with you, but nobody will switch over unless they're forced to. Everybody will say "I have plenty of time" until the last minute. Then there'll be a panic during the last six months as people realize the end is nigh. One month before the end, the decision will be made to extend the deadline because nobody is ready. Everybody will relax and go back to their normal state of putting off the transition until the last minute...
And thus it always goes.
There's a bunch of grumps around here that just downvote posts for no reason - or at least, with no explanation.
Even worse, daring to mention it will get you downvoted even more!
I can't answer your 2g question, but expect both your posts, and mine to be downvoted further!
If you, big Telco, want to switch off 3g/2g, fine, but you can pay for the replacement equipment needed by me and my nan, who has a 2g-based lifeline service. Alternatively, leave it running as someone else said, for a guaranteed 20 more years so much of the problem will go away one way or another. Hi, nan!
I'm far from certain that Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/WhatsApp/Cat pictures (to mention but a few) are an effective use of any technology.
I'm sure that at some point, probably in the not-too-distant future, somebody will post on Facebook that they've seen a Instagarm post of somebody Tweeting about seeing a cat picture on Whatsapp...and then the whole Internet will just implode
Fortunately someone found a way to decide if 2g or cat pictures is the best use of the bandwidth
It's called money.
If legacy 2g is important and switching all the handsets is expensive then the network charges will simply increase until it reaches what people would pay for higher band use of the frequency
It's not just the handsets though. It's all the monitoring gear and alarm gear linked to to 2G text alert gateways and the like. Loads of it in the building services industry and the utilities companies. As well as domestic alarms and panic buttons.
Of course the smart meters will be no loss, but all the above going means dead people and ruined infrastructure. And there's lots of it, in hard to reach places that isn't getting replaced on anything less than a 5 year timescale. And that would be bloody tight and expensive I suspect.
Plus 2G coverage is better than 3G/4G, so how much of that monitoring gear won't be able to be upgraded?
I wonder if the networks could provide plug in 2g-4g converters - provide a very low power 2g interface for old gear and send it out over 4g, kind of like a personal hotspot.
I suppose the main problem would be whether the existing 2g kit would automatically scale back its broadcast power by enough to make it possible to repurpose the 2G spectrum?
One of the main reasons they are expensive to replace is the fact they are remote. Getting somebody qualified to thousands of locations all over the country is expensive regardless of the hardware. So even if such a converter would be a feasible option it still would not fix the cost issue.
That's not to say hardware costs are not an issue. 4G modules are still 4-5 times more expensive compared to 2G only, even in bulk last I checked. For certain applications that will double or triple the total hardware cost. For that reason alone there's plenty 2G only hardware still being produced and deployed...
In practice you have 4 choices.
Replace the entire box with a new 5g version.
Add a separate converter box to 5g
Pay the telco whatever they demand to use the valuable bandwidth for your kit instead of new business.
Or pay more to lobby to keep 2G than all the telcos and internet giants are paying to lobby for 5g
I understand 2G is old, and in our society older stuff (and staff) has to go, but everybody seems to forget we're talking about a tool here: You wouldn't install a stereo HiFi loudspeaker for an alarm siren, and 2G is what's best for technical applications like alarms and such: Better coverage and low price.
Obviously carriers would like to drop everything except the shiny new 5G, and so what if it only works in big cities, that's where the good money is.
However, 2G is still relied on by [...] applications such as smart meters
Funny you should say they...only yesterday a 12m high mast appeared in the middle of my village. It transpires that the mast is part of an network that Arquiva are building of several hundred masts to provide coverage for smart metering.
Makes you think about other technologies which are long in the tooth and seemingly outdated but which still seem to be hanging in there because there is some use case or other which justifies it.
For example, broadcasting Radio 4 on LW. Not that I've got anything against Radio 4 (licence fee is worth it for that alone, etc.) but really how much does it cost and how many people use it and genuinely couldn't listen via another means? Even if there are times it's genuinely useful, couldn't it be stood up as needed (e.g. Daily Service, shipping forecasts, etc) rather than running fulltime?
Well, think about time signal via LW which controls the so-called "radio controlled" clocks. It pretty much covers the entire world via giant masts around the continents, with powers of a few hundred kW, when they could use GPS... but the circuitry to put GPS in clocks would make them more expensive and complex to build, hence it's just easier to keep going with that.
The LW transmitter also sends out data signals by phase modulating the transmission at a low data rate (25 bits/sec). These signals (among other uses) switch some dual rate electricity meters from one rate to another. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch for more details.)
(I did some work on this system back in the days of the CEGB.)
You bastard! You've mentioned the shipping forecast, and now I can't get 'Sailing By' out of my head. I'm whistling it at my desk, in fact.
Worse I'm having flash-backs to all those times that England lost a wicket "because" radio 4 cut out TMS for a shipping forecast - and the shipping forecast always gets a wicket. Except when it doesn't of course (perhaps because you wore your lucky underpants)...
...Dogger, Fisher, Germans Bite...
Quote
...Dogger, Fisher, Germans Bite...
Now you're really bringing on the flashbacks to my days working(ha) for HM government when we were messing about in boats and listened to the shipping forecast so we'd know what sort of weather to expect...... mind you it was generally far more accurate than the drivel the 'weathermen' on the local TV station spouted.....
Meanwhile back at the 2G debate... turn it off... anythign that feks up the 'smart' meters sounds good to me
Coat... because its going to be wet up on deck...
Then that will stop that stupid waste of money that is being spent on 'Smart Meters' dead in its tracks.
Another case of two Government Offices right next door to each other denying each others existence.
Normal Service in Westminster then.
Anyway, once we leave the EU with a crap deal we won't have any money for food let alone luxuries like phones.
> Then that will stop that stupid waste of money that is being spent on 'Smart Meters' dead in its tracks.
Sorry to rain on your parade but it only means there will be a new pork barrel to replace all the existing smart meters with newer, 5G ones.
The industry never complains when a government forces people to buy unnecessary stuff.
... we're lucky to get *ANY* kind of a signal at all! I live in a big-ish seaside town, near one of our only remaining fishing ports, and at home, the ONLY signal I can receive is EE! So much for consumer choice!
If I stand on the top of a nearby hill, I can get 4G. Anywhere else, and not a G in sight!
Welcome to the 21st century!
Exactly the same for me, I'm near Morecambe and my only signal is from EE and it only works in one room indoors
After Storm Desmond our local mast was out of action so we could get a signal from across the Bay at one spot on the sea front with many people crowding round to phone relatives to tell them what was happening...
There are still a lot of smartphones on sale around here that are 3G only, 2year warantee. I'd missed the end of 3G was getting near, but I expect there's going to be a whole heap of angry customers if they really pull the plug on 3G next year.
And then there are the phones that advertise 4G, but when you look at the specs are only FDD or only TDD, and the networks don't say what they actually offer....
So, that smart meter I've got in my house uses 2G?
I knew it was on the mobile network... but it's not long been put in - does this mean that all these smart meters are going to need replacing on a relatively frequent basis?
(relative to the meter it replaced which was as old as the house, built in the 70's)
That seems like alot of work / carbon emmisions / waste / money for something that is supposed to reduce all of those things!
The Cambridgeshire village of Papworth Everard (that which used to have the hospital) isn't "rural", but it doesn't have reliable 2G, 3G or 4G.
Here's an idea. Make it so that we can "roam" in our own bloody country. As soon as Vodafone drops out, let my phone automatically switch to EE. Or whatever. And make the telco pay a decent charge to the new provider as punishment for having a shit network.
Australia has already switched off 2G services with the largest telco (Telstra - formally government owned) having announced the future switch-off date for their 3G services, they have given about 5 years notice and no longer sell any phone that don't support 4G. They followed a similar process for the 2G switch-off. Vodafone and Optus then followed Telstra's lead to switch-off 2G. I wouldn't be surprised if they also followed in a similar timeframe for the 3G switch-off.
It seems that many dual SIM phones only support 2G GSM on the 2nd SIM? This appears to be the case for my Nokia 2.2.
I'm going to Japan soon and will buy a tourist SIM there because roaming rates are of course insane, but it will be data-only because for some reason Japan doesn't trust non-residents to have a Japanese phone number??
To receive texts with OTCs if I need to use online banking I'll be taking my 3G flip-phone from 2007 as Japan never had a GSM network - they came up with their own standard. I could just take my bank card reader but this way just seemed more pleasingly silly.
Phone makers would really like to be able to drop support for 2G & 3G before long and go LTE and 5G only. Cellular providers would like that too as they could drop the circuit switched voice and go VoLTE/Vo5G only. There shouldn't be any concern about coverage - if you are covered by 2G or 3G somewhere and not LTE, if they shut down 2G & 3G frequencies and bring those up in LTE then you'll have the same coverage.
They probably have a pretty good idea of customers who have old pre-LTE phones, and can offer them deals to see if they'll upgrade. And eventually force them to upgrade (they can give them cheap LTE phones to replace their cheap 2G/3G phones for free) The trick will be specialized stuff like alarms and smart meters. We're lucky in the US that we don't have the same installed base of that crap so we should be pretty much LTE only by the end of 2021. At least that's what the four major carriers are planning, maybe some regional carriers will take longer I don't know.
Sounds like it might take longer than that across the pond.
"Sounds like it might take longer than that across the pond."
Yes, being a physically small country with a fairly dense population and pushing the mobile telcos for maximum geographical coverage meant we had a pretty decent 2G network which then got used for all sorts of stuff other than just making phone calls. All the mobile telcos are, be default, national entities, we don't have regional networks, so they are competing against each other over the entire UK meaning no local monopolies. There's probably similar situations in other countries too, particularly Europe, so turning off 2G would be a major undertaking over a long period of time. It will cost a lot of money, either for a few Telcos maintaining an older technology or for millions of people and business to upgrade all their kit.
Your phone's coverage has to do with the frequency range being used, NOT whether it is 2G, 3G or LTE. If frequency X where you live is currently 2G or 3G and they shut off 2G/3G and go LTE/5G only, and that frequency X is now used for LTE, you'll have the same coverage with it you do today.
If you have no signal inside you'll still have no signal inside, but you'll have signal outside at least. Your solution is wifi calling. I live in a low area near a creek, and have crappy reception on my first floor, upstairs is a bit better. When wifi calling became available my problems all went away, even though I still have only one bar (or sometimes even no signal) sitting on my couch watching TV.
Please ignore comments about it not working inside the house. I was actually referring to
We're lucky in the US that we don't have the same installed base of that crap so we should be pretty much LTE only by the end of 2021. At least that's what the four major carriers are planning, maybe some regional carriers will take longer I don't know.
My calls phone does 3G not 4G has no wifi capabilities so wifi calling is out. So it wouldn't work inside or out even if there was signal but no 3G. Also the phone was new this year so I'm not looking to replace it anytime soon.
Some of the equipment vendors offer simultaneous 2G and 4G services in one block of spectrum. The reality is that for M2M connections, only a small number of 2G carries are required, as your smart meter or other connected systems only have to phone home once or twice a day. Here in NZ, there is only one operator left running a commercial 2G and I think that will run until around 2025 when their existing M2M contracts expire. My guess is that they will shut down public facing 2G connections however few years before, as the number of non 4G phones dwindles to a tiny amount, and they (somewhat cynically) just have to mop up the handful of users who rely on it by throwing a bit of cash or hard luck at the 2G punters.
I bought my phone handset-only, and have a SIM-only contract.
Sony phone is VoLTE (and voice-over-WiFi) capable, but apparently I require a Vodafone "modem file" to do VoLTE/VoWiFi on their network (there's a telefonica file there now) - but Vodafone seems to have no mechanism to supply the modem/config file...
So it's still 2G voice for me (3G coverage was poor, and is already being scaled back)
So long as I can have a candy bar phone that isn't android or any variant of, IOS or windows phone then that's fine. I need my candybar phone for calls only and a five day standby battery life. I've got a smartphone for WhatsApp, browsing, VLC etc. That needs charging once a day. I don't want or need all those fripperies on my calls phone draining the battery.
When I've got a non touchscreen waterproof candybar phone with a removable battery that does 4G and has a standby battery life of a week then feel free to switch off the 3G network. Until then bugger off.
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Between work and our nearest "big" town, 4G coverage is about 30%. 3G coverage about 30%, 2G around 30% and then total blackspots about 10%. 5G coverage is non-existent, and won't be for a long time.
So, companies considering turning off 3G or 2G are effectively saying they'll reduce the coverage in this area of Somerset to about 30% total. Because that'll be great for business. Bearing in mind there's a good 70,000 people who live in the area too.
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