Eh?
What the hell is an ableist insult?
GIMP open source image editor forked to fix 'problematic' name
Glimpse is a fork of the popular open source image editor, GIMP, created primarily to offer the software under an alternative name. GIMP is a longstanding project, first announced in November 1995. The name was originally an acronym for General Image Manipulation Program but this was changed to GNU Image Manipulation Program …
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Eh?
Some modern politically correct bollocks that we don't get much exposure to because it's utterly irrelevant to anybody other than a minority of screaming toddlers on twitter who don't have any constructive work to do.
They are right about the name though, it's idiotic and prevents uptake. I'd find it easier to get people to use it named Glimpse, especially if they include the gimpshop GUI to deal with the utter usability disaster that is GIMP's default GUI.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:06 GMT fidodogbreath
Re: Eh?
Some modern politically correct bollocks that we don't get much exposure to because it's utterly irrelevant to anybody other than a minority of screaming toddlers on twitter who don't have any constructive work to do.
Translation: Those of us in the majority can casually insult those who are not, because such politically correct bollocks is utterly irrelevant to us. We're far too busy with constructive work (e.g., posting Reg comments) to waste our time worrying about their screaming-toddler feelings.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 12:11 GMT Drew Scriver
The very word "disabled" is an ableist term...
I looked up "ableist" and found this:
"Ableism is a set of beliefs or practices that devalue and discriminate against people with physical, intellectual, or psychiatric disabilities and often rests on the assumption that disabled people need to be ‘fixed’ in one form or the other." (http://cdrnys.org/blog/uncategorized/ableism/)
However, to my knowledge nobody is calling out that at its core the very word "disabled" is an 'ableist' term...
In my (ICT) world, when I disable something it's not going to be able to perform its intended function at all - not just in a diminished capacity.
synonyms: deactivate, defuse, disarm, render inoperative, make ineffective, put out of action, make harmless
Not exactly a term you'd want to assign to a person, me thinks. Pot and kettle? Beam and splinter?
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Monday 2nd September 2019 19:11 GMT jake
Re: The very word "disabled" is an ableist term...
"So, how long until "different(ly)" is considered offensive?"
This has been true throughout the course of human history, on and off, for various reasons.
Making things worse, the more modern "all are equal" seems to have morphed into "none can be different" ... which can't work for many obvious reasons, the hand-wringers in the crowd not withstanding. Sadly, it would seem that many are attempting to reach this ridiculous goal, dropping society further and further into a lowest common denominator pool of grey goo.
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Tuesday 3rd September 2019 07:53 GMT Kiwi
Re: The very word "disabled" is an ableist term...
to my knowledge nobody is calling out that at its core the very word "disabled" is an 'ableist' term...
Some prefer the PC term 'differently abled'! Presumably those who do, also object to 'disabled'.
In response to a comment in this forum, I looked up what are now considered "abelist insults". Now that I am aware of these, I must take deep personal offence on behalf of some complete stranger as referring to someone as "differently abled' is an "abelist insult".
There's a lot of other stuff that the other day was considered the nicest and most correct way to refer to people with various disabilities that are now considered insults.
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Friday 30th August 2019 08:22 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
Some modern politically correct bollocks that we don't get much exposure to because it's utterly irrelevant to anybody other than a minority of screaming toddlers on twitter who don't have any constructive work to do.
Translation: Those of us in the majority can casually insult those who are not, because such politically correct bollocks is utterly irrelevant to us.
I technically qualify as disabled.
Don't get upset on my account. This PC nonsense really doesn't help anyone, but it does hurt a hell of a lot of people.
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Saturday 31st August 2019 15:40 GMT xanda
Re: Eh?
I too suffer a disability.
It's often mocked, both in everyday conversation as well as in the media at large.
And you know what? I'm still here - and what's more it gives me some great jokes to share...
That said, my beef (no apologies to vegans) with those shouting out the 'p' word is that they really do make my life difficult: The effect is that people are nervous/not candid with me in day-to-day life for fear of causing offence. Plus don't get me started when it comes to job interviews...
Frankly anyone who has a problem with the word gimp needs to grow up, get a life and a dictionary (not necessarily in that order).
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Sunday 1st September 2019 04:42 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
The effect is that people are nervous/not candid with me in day-to-day life for fear of causing offence.
I have seen and heard this so often, especially from those in your position (or 'ethnic minorities', those of us who 'don't swing the right way' etc etc).
PC scumbags shove their noses in, try to impose their will on others, make people afraid to talk in any sort of open way with other people, and in the end make life much harder for those they're claiming to protect.
I've seen nurses driven away from caring for a patient when they were speaking quite candidly with the patient and the visitors took exception to the nurse using "offensive" terms. So the patient had to wait till the visitors were gone before certain needs could be met.
PC people are among the worst I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
May your life be filled with people who don't pull punches, who use whatever words work best, and may your situation be mitigated if not treated. Be met with people who challenge you to push yourself to work around your limitations and put them to shame!
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Saturday 31st August 2019 07:15 GMT PatrickEB
Re: Eh?
When you're asking what the problem is, read this and it will inform you as to what and who are the problems:
"Some modern politically correct bollocks that we don't get much exposure to because it's utterly irrelevant to anybody other than a minority of screaming toddlers on twitter who don't have any constructive work to do."
Pretty much tells who the problem is and the attitude that they represent.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 03:08 GMT Richocet
Re: Eh?
I'm not sure that is what free speech means.
The core concept is that you can speak up against a government, religion, ideology, majority group etc. People don't have to agree with you, but you can't be jailed for it.
It doesn't permit falsely accusing people of things or malicious rumor spreading. There are laws against that, and you can be jailed.
Good point that free speech doesn't require people to like or accept what you say.
However insulting and abusing any group you want - not sure that is part of it. I worry people who do this and misunderstand free speech - or who know very well, but try to use free speech as a loophole - are going to give governments excuses restrict free speech.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:20 GMT Mandrake42
Re: Eh?
In order to think, you have to risk being offensive. There is no universal benchmark for what's offensive and what's not, so free speech MUST always means allowing anyone to risk being offensive. Poor snowflakes get more easily offended. Also being usually incompetent, the only control they are able to try to exercise is to control the free speech of others. But the competent will always win.
#MAGA
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Friday 30th August 2019 09:11 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
Poor snowflakes get more easily offended. Also being usually incompetent, the only control they are able to try to exercise is to control the free speech of others.
I've often noticed that. More commonly than not, the more
peoplesnowflakes whine about PC crap, the less likely they are to have actually accomplished anything.In order to think, you have to risk being offensive.
Some of the best things anyone has ever said to me have been utterly offensive to me at first, but onl reflection I've made changes that have improved my life for the better.
The worst things, OTOH, have been when muppets have sat silent and let me come to grief because they could see a problem but didn't want to risk offending me. I've been at risk of serious injury because someone was too girly to warn me I was making a mistake in how I was using a power tool. Had the thrown bit of work been a few inches over it could've gone into my chest instead of grazing my shoulder.
Speak up. Speak your mind. I might run away crying. I might wet my panties. I might thank you for it. (yes, may even try to end my life too - that's a risk we take but it's more likely to be over-protected snowflakes getting their first taste of reality than people who've not been overly protected).
But the competent will always win.
In that, I think you are very sadly mistaken. This world is great at producing fools, great at promoting lunatics, and utterly amazing at producing utter fuckwits. Those of us who are even remotely competent (even going as low as my level) are outnumbered 100 to 1. And even worse, they're too stupid to realise they're too stupid.
#MAGA
Make Anal Gay Again? Thanks, but I don't mind the straights sharing some of the joys....
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Saturday 31st August 2019 00:04 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
"so free speech MUST always means allowing anyone to risk being offensive."
The operative word there being "risk". But what RacerX said was "Free speech means I can insult anyone and any group I choose" which is a very different interpretation on what free speech is or is not.
Yes, we should be free to insult whoever we choose.
The problem I find most annoying is when people take insult/offence when it's not intended. When someone is making a well-reasoned argument/speech in support of a group, but some SJW or other PC-scumtype grabs all the attention (thus detracting from the intended speech and wasting the helpful resource) by getting offended that the speaker isn't up with this minute's trend.
"I think the community centre needs better access so disabled people can enjoy this resource. I have a plan I believe the community can get behind that will achieve this within a few months"
'HOW DARE THIS OFFENSIVE PERSON REFER TO PEOPLE AS "DISABLED"? DOESN'T HE KNOW THAT IS A BAD WORD! I NEED TO TAKE UP 3 WHOLE PAGES TO SHOW THE LEVEL OF HIS OFFENCE EVEN THOUGH THE OFFENCE APPLIES NEITHER TO ME NOT ANYONE ELSE I KNOW! HE NEEDS TO BE LOCKED UP AND WE MUST IGNORE EVERYTHING HE SAYS (no matter how otherwise good it is) AND PUT HIM AWAY WHERE HE CANNOT CAUSE ANY MORE HARM! RANT RANT RANT RANT RANT RANT RANT RANT!"
Hence my earlier comment that this PC crap does far more harm than good. I'm yet to be convinced that free-speech rights also give people the right to deliberately mis-interpret statements and then take offence at what they try to imagine was said, rather than the actual intent of the words. (Interestingly, Split Enz's "What's the matter with you" is playing as I write this :) )
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Thursday 29th August 2019 20:07 GMT Qumefox
Re: Eh?
Free speech means you have the right to say whatever you like in a public forum. I.E. Out in public. In countries with protected free speech, you're perfectly welcome to jump up on a soap box and call everyone in the crowd a faggot if you'd like, or preach at them, etc without fear of being arrested due to it. (Unless you're violating some other law, like trespassing) The laws make no distinction about the content of such speech, only that you have the right to say whatever it is.
However free speech laws in no way protect you from the consequences and repercussions from society for doing such. (The crowd beating the snot out of you for instance) Nor do they give you the right to say what you please in PRIVATE forums. Like those run by a game company, or hell, even this comment section. I've run into a lot of people over the years do don't seem to understand this last part.
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Friday 30th August 2019 09:18 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
Free speech means I can insult anyone and any group I choose
[..]That just makes you a thoughtless tw*t though, not some free-speech warrior.
Not necessarily.
When I speak my mind on certain topics, including here, I almost always offend some people. If I speak on sexuality in some forums, they get offended that I am not rabidly anti-gay. Or here, if I speak on something around my Christian beliefs here on El Reg I can guarantee someone will feel that I have insulted them, and many more will feel offended.
And if you hold differing views to me, you may write something that I could take offence at, and maybe even say something insulting. That in no way makes you thoughtless, just means we have different views on what is right and what isn't. We may be uncaring about the other's views, but not necessarily thoughtless.
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Friday 30th August 2019 14:24 GMT T-Unit
Re: Eh?
Free speech is an incredibly low bar to set yourself. If 'not breaking the law' is the only barrier between your brain and your mouth then you are an unkind, mean-spirited, thoughtless, a-hole.
The law isn't a set of rules for how we should behave, it's a last resort when someone is bahving SO badly they need to be physically stopped!
There are posters at my kid's school that say "Before you speak, THINK" and that acronym means you shouldn't say something unless it's "True, Helpful, Inspiring, Necessary, and Kind". I really wish more adults would consider this before they open their mouths.
Just because you CAN say something, and even if it's true ("you're really fat") doesn't mean you should.
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Friday 30th August 2019 21:49 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
There are posters at my kid's school that say "Before you speak, THINK" and that acronym means you shouldn't say something unless it's "True, Helpful, Inspiring, Necessary, and Kind". I really wish more adults would consider this before they open their mouths.
IIRC that dates back to Scorates or Plato - "is it true, is it necessary, does it improve upon the silence" or something along those lines. Something I like and tend to try to live by (my posts here obviously speaking otherwise :) ).
But....
Just because you CAN say something, and even if it's true ("you're really fat") doesn't mean you should.
If more people spoke up to those with eating disorders, teaching them what true "self love" is, and how to make changes without making sacrifices, we wouldn't have these sorts of problems. But people remain silent, lest they offend the poor kid who is overweight and facing a heart attack and diabetes long before they finish school.
Some years back I was diagnosed with high cholesterol as well as being somewhat overweight. I made some minor changes to my diet (one of which was to switch from margarine-like gunk to actual butter, but limit the use, another was to introduce more fresh foods rather than pre-processed) and take up walking/cycling on a more regular basis (eventually swapping some of this for gardening). Both problems beaten by simply eating tastier and more enjoyable food, and getting off my arse and away from the screens - giving my brain a break, my eyes a break, and finding stuff much more enjoyable to do.
But no, we're supposed to believe that a 11yo at 170kg is just a kid "showing extreme self-love" and we should worship their morbid obesity, and praise the parents for being so kind as to
send the kid into an early grave through a few years of sufferinglet the kid make their ownstupidmodern-wise diet choices.If you can change someone's life in a way that improves it, speak up!. Don't be cowed into silence by the SJW/PC scum. Speak in love, don't remain silent in fear.
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Saturday 31st August 2019 07:21 GMT PatrickEB
Re: Eh?
I think you need to understand the difference between being a moronic git and free speech.
You've displayed the former.
If you lack the capacity for civil discourse and don't wish to engage in civil discourse, you're engaging in 'free speech', you're being a dickhead.
Now, sometimes people don't like what others say. That can be because they're challenging their dickheaded belief that what they do is okay, like slave owners and those who sexually assault other people. They though that those who protected others from dickheads were offensive.
Really, they weren't. They were challenging dickheads.
Some dickheads don't like being challenged and get all "Oh, I'm going keep saying what I'm saying. You can't stop me blah blah". Pretty much channelling their inner 3 year old.
So, you can keep being a dickhead, but you're no advocate of free speech when you do. Just a dickhead.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 11:04 GMT Muppet Boss
Re: Eh?
>Self-deprecating is different from insulting towards a minority.
>It's like MongoDB -- how did they ever think that was OK?
Hmmm, does not "mong" mean "brave" in Mongolian?
Of all the word meanings, some people seem to be fixated only on the offensive ones.
MongoDB is from humongous but see above.
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Tuesday 3rd September 2019 09:26 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
The Mongo was introduced in 1925. It's a unit of currency, specifically 1/100th of a Mongolian tögrög.
So many words which sound (and are even spelt) the same, yet have different colloquial meanings.
I think "Mongo" is used in the movie "There's something about Mary" in a derogatory sense against people with some form of severe intellectual handicap, but it may be a similar word (thankfully a great many years since I saw that movie).
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 22:00 GMT rnturn
Re: Eh?
> I truly wish they'd named the fork Seakitten
Because there aren't *enough* open source project names that defy any reasonable means of associating the name to what the software actually does. At least "Glimpse" (Dear $DIETY... don't make the name all uppercase) has *something* to do with "visual".
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Friday 30th August 2019 09:28 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
Because there aren't *enough* open source project names that defy any reasonable means of associating the name to what the software actually does.
You mean like "Windows", "Outlook", "Edge". "Bob", "BASIC", "Visual Studio" (I guess some form of video or photograph software?), "Bing" to name a few... P)
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:15 GMT Simon Harris
Re: Eh?
If Gimp is an ableist insult, how about a Spazz wheelchair?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:06 GMT RyokuMas
Re: Eh?
I think it would be pertinent here to remind people that El Reg does have comment guidelines - one of which is "We're thick-skinned, but..." - so I guess if you're reasonably debating the use of a contentious word/phrase, you're not going to get too much flack.
However, if you're crossing the line of politeness and trying to ram your opinion down someone's throat just because they don't agree with you... different ball game. Doubly so if you wander off topic in order to trot our views on something that really is not pertinent to what the article is discussing...
... triply so if you have previously advocated tolerance...
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Thursday 29th August 2019 11:28 GMT Chris Parsons
Re: Eh?
When I left the corporate world, I had a pleasant 15 years doing freelance IT support. One of my customers, a titled lady and keen pursuer of innocent foxes, had a problem with her internet. I had a quick gander and realised that it was a BT fault, so said that she needed to talk to them in the first instance as she was the customer. She called the support desk and after much shouting and swearing, handed the phone to me and said 'I can't understand a word he's saying, it's a f*cking Paki'. I don't know who was the most embarrassed, he or I.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:17 GMT BrownishMonstr
Re: Eh?
Is it racist? I mean, really?
I would say it depends more on the context of what is being said than the term itself.
Some of them use it to describe themselves all of the time, in which case it would be racist if you couldn't use it.
I might find it somewhat offensive, if you call me one, and feel somewhat uncomfortable. But I certainly wouldn't feel like you were being racist if you were to use the term in an otherwise normal conversation. I certainly wouldn't say anything either if there were no racist undertones (through anything else you say, or how you say it).
Bearing in mind, my comment is said as I physically look like one and can ethnically be considered as one. Also, I'm not writing it because I don't want it flagged on the company's internet.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 22:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Eh?
No it's not the same.
A limey is a good hearted nod to a naval tradition.
A yank is a good hearted nod to a book.
A pom is allegedly a contraction of pomegranate - pronounced to rhyme with immigrant ( I guess your accent has to be right for this)
It's a slur applied to all brown people, regardless of heritage, a way of othering and dehumanising people.
In short, it's racist, don't do it, don't make excuses for it.
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Friday 30th August 2019 09:41 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
A pom is allegedly a contraction of pomegranate - pronounced to rhyme with immigrant ( I guess your accent has to be right for this)
My Dad was an Ozzie. He always told me "Pommy" came from "P.O.H.M" as in "Prisoner Of Her* Majesty". So for many Ozzies yes, it could be considered an insult as it reminded them of their criminal heritage.
In short, it's racist, don't do it, don't make excuses for it.
It's not. Most Paki's I know use it in self-reference when discussions or questions of their heritage come up. But like "Yank" and "Limey", it can be, if that is the intended use.
* Or "his", as the case may be - but quite sure he used "her".
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Friday 30th August 2019 22:08 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
You using the phrase "Most Paki's" is polite company should earn you opprobrium.
In not so polite company, physical chastisement is the very least of what you should expect.
You've been told twice now, so you've no excuse, but, carry on with the butter wouldn't melt routine.
Interesting.. I'll take the word of the many Paki's I know over yours any day. There's a lot of them living here, the family who own the corner store down the road for a start will quickly say "We're Paki's, not Punjab's" (they do intend the latter as a racist comment).
Clearly, it's not only NZ Pakistani's who use "Paki" to ID themselves.
"Paki" means "Someone from Pakistan" all over the world. Just like "Kiwi" and "New Zealander" mean "someone from NZ" etc. To claim it is "racist" is quite wrong, especially when the people themselves use it as a term to identify their heritage.
You have, however, repeatedly threatened violence against me for using a term people I know wish to have used to identify their heritage. Not only are you yourself actually being quite racist (doubly so as 1) you credit them with being unable to speak up for themselves or unable to make their own choices about identity terms and 2) you have no idea about my culture and wish to impose your will on it), but you are also committing what is in many countries a criminal act. One could even claim you're inciting terrorist activities by saying it should be "prolonged violence" or "physical chastisement is the very least of what you should expect".
What do you think you would face if you were in NZ and saying these things? Under our current climate, to seen to be promoting racial terrorism (even if that wasn't your intent) and worse to be doing it based on a term those you claim it is against actually use themselves very happily?
Carry on with your own routine, but that won't make you any more right.
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Tuesday 3rd September 2019 09:24 GMT Kiwi
Re: DVLA doesn't agree
https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ Suggests you might be full of it.
Post evidence or retract.
I too would love to see that :)
However, looking at the 'talk' page on the Wikipedia article on 'Paki', I found the following quote :
Further down, it's mentioned that in the US and elsewhere it's not considered offensive, but that it simply means "a person of Pakistani origins/heritage".
Below that we see "I live in a city in England where the ethnic (and perceived) Pakistani community (actually the majority are from pakistani-controlled Jammu and Kashmir which is not an integral part of Pakistan and is in fact de jure an occupied part of India!) where we'd say I'm off to the paki shop (corner shop, convenience store) and this was not said in a derogatory way but in a matter of fact (I'm off to the pakistani-owned shop) kind of way."
So, at least some people in the UK do not consider it to be offensive. Of course, they're closer to you so you may wish to introduce them to some of that "prolonged violence" you were wishing on me.
Also see the comment "The liberal PC brigade is destroying the UK. You'd think calling a Pakistani a Paki was the worst crime in the world." Nah, not seeing that with your posts at all... :)
According to the BBC, " some young British Pakistanis are now trying to reclaim the word as a badge they are proud of."
I'm going to paraphrase a quote in that article, "As I was growing up in
Bradford and Leeds[New Zealand] I'd be walking around and people would be going 'get thatPak[gay]' and there wasPaki[gay] bashing. They were insulting, there is no other way of looking at this word."Like the aforementioned young Paki's are doing in the UK with their term, gays have adopted a term that was used as abusive against us and [sometimes proudly] use it as a descriptive label for us. But I guess they're not allowed to re-claim a formerly OK term and make it OK again because in your view that would be wrong, and those UK Paki's should not be reclaiming such a word without your permission. Should those UK Pakistani's who wish to reclaim the term "Paki" also be subjected to 'prolonged violence" because you don't like the term?
BTW, "Paki" is also a Maori word meaning 'fine weather', so when I am calling a person "Paki" I am saying that they're from Pakistan, but I could also be saying that they're "pure" or "bright and sunny" (or "warm and sunny" or... You'd wish for 'prolonged violence' on someone who calls people "Pure" or "Bright"?
"Paki" is a respectable name over in these parts (although Korotangi Paki, the son of the Maori King, seems to be intent on changing that). Perhaps you need to do some research on what happens in the rest of the world before claiming someone is deserving of "prolonged violence" among other things. If you were worth it, I could be offended at the slurs against my own culture by your insistence that "Paki" (the sort of weather we had today - absolutely GORGEOUS Spring weather!) is racist. But your kind is not worth taking offence at. I hope you can grow up some and learn that what happens where you are isn't the same for the rest of us, but I won't hold out much hope.
Now I need some chocolate. Off to see the Paki's at their Paki shop.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 22:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Is calling someone a Paki racist?
Spoiler Alert. Yes. ffs.
If someone is racist to you, I don't much mind that you don't care.
That one person doesn't find being abused racially offensive has no bearing on how "some of them" feel.
Let me be clear, racism costs, you'd don't want to collect that's fine, don't expect anyone else to turn the other cheek. I would encourage the expectation of prosecution and prolonged violent retribution.
Ask someone a little older than you why that kind of language fell out of fashion, you'll know who to ask by the prominent facial scarring.
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Friday 30th August 2019 09:45 GMT Kiwi
Re: Is calling someone a Paki racist?
Let me be clear, racism costs, you'd don't want to collect that's fine, don't expect anyone else to turn the other cheek. I would encourage the expectation of prosecution and prolonged violent retribution.
Why would you "encourage...prolonged violent retribution" for someone using a term a lot of Pakistani's don't find offensive/racist and themselves use to refer to their heritage?
Don't you think it's a somewhat racist of yourself to assume they're unable to speak for themselves and fight their own battles?
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Friday 30th August 2019 12:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Is calling someone a Paki racist?
Why would you "encourage...prolonged violent retribution" for someone using a term a lot of Pakistani's don't find offensive/racist and themselves use to refer to their heritage?
The missing words there are critical "the expectation of prosecution", We as a nation decided that racist bullshit was bullshit. Prior to this, an entire social-economic grouping (note, not a racial grouping)
decided that you will not speak to us, our friends and loved ones, in that way without loosing teeth.
It's a proud tradition, with notable examples being https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
Here it is in liverpool https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/live-heavy-police-presence-city-15367522 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/edl-laughed-out-liverpool-benny-10553994
In the argot of the young'uns "talk shit, get slapped"
Don't you think it's a somewhat racist of yourself to assume they're unable to speak for themselves and fight their own battles?
Nope.
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Friday 30th August 2019 22:26 GMT Kiwi
Re: Is calling someone a Paki racist?
Why would you "encourage...prolonged violent retribution" for someone using a term a lot of Pakistani's don't find offensive/racist and themselves use to refer to their heritage?
The missing words there are critical "the expectation of prosecution", We as a nation decided that racist bullshit was bullshit. Prior to this, an entire social-economic grouping (note, not a racial grouping)
The missing though from your statements is "People from Pakistan use 'Paki' to identify themselves, publicly, and expect others to do the same, so I should not take it on myself to tell them how to live".
YOU are talking as if the Pakistani people are inferior, not capable of making their own choice of what term they wish to use as a shortened form of their name. YOU, not those of us trying to educate you about what it's like.
[Battle of cable street] So you're proud of a bunch of thugs going out to violently oppose others expressing their views, disgusting as those views might be? That's your claim to authority - someone in the past used violence to silence other's free speech? You must really love those who went out to the gay marches here in NZ back in the 80s, and made sure we knew just how hated we should be. You certainly are proud of having the same nature as those violently opposed to "gay rights".
The rest of your post is just more promoting violence against Pakistani's for using a term that describes their heritage, a term they themselves use proudly.
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Friday 30th August 2019 12:35 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Eh?
I note that you've persisted in using the term, while playing dumb.
Please visit the U.K., take a stroll around Liverpool, Manchester, Brum, London.
I would recommend ensuring you are up for a scrap if you persist in using such language.
The kids nowadays are a lot more hot-headed, than my generation was/is.
You'll have to troll someone else now, either you are beyond help or having fun, and either way I've done my bit to keep the peace.
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Friday 30th August 2019 22:31 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
Please visit the U.K., take a stroll around Liverpool, Manchester, Brum, London.
So.. Your standard is based on a tiny area of your country. You'll use violence to impose your view of how Paki's should identify themselves? And you're stupid enough to think you're NOT being racist?
If a local shopkeeper or a good friend wants me to refer to them, their family and their heritage as "Paki" then I'll take their word over that of some violent racist thug on the other side of the world. ok? They are, after all, the ones who are from Pakistan, and they are the ones who wish that term to be used. Your racist view doesn't count.
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Sunday 1st September 2019 04:27 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
WTF would you refer to a friend by where they come from?
So.. Becasue we're friends we're somehow not to speak of each other's heritage or birth place? You must be a real star at social gatherings!
And if someone else asks me where someone is from or about their heritage, I should say what.. Some random guy on the internet says I can't be his friend if I talk about where he's from?
Why shouldn't we discuss these things? Come on, lets see why you think friends should not talk about where they are from or how they wish others to refer to them/their heritage/sexuality etc when it comes up. Why shouldn't we show an interest in each other's history?
You are just making sh*t up to try to win an argument.
Ahem.. Pot to kettle : You're black. Over.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 17:45 GMT Ben Tasker
Re: The name Glimpse discriminates against people who are unable to see
I felt sure Urban Dictionary would have some offensive use of Glimpse, but sadly the closest (and I wouldn't say it was offensive) is Glimple: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glimple
> When you get a glimpse of nipple...
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 18:19 GMT el kabong
People can feel insulted by anything if they want, it is their choice and it is their right
I am pretty sure that if I try I will be able to find someone, or more than one person, who will feel insulted by the word Glimpse and because of that I demand it to be replaced with a word that is not offensive to those people.
Is that too hard?? Is it too much that I'm asking for?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:51 GMT bombastic bob
Re: People can feel insulted by anything if they want, it is their choice and it is their right
yes but they have NO DAMN RIGHT to FORCE THEIR WILL upon the REST of us because *THEY* happen to be overly-sensitive snowflakes in need of a good "attitude adjustment" with a cluebat or cat-5-o-nine-tails
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:30 GMT Not also known as SC
Re: People can feel insulted by anything if they want, it is their choice and it is their right
@Bombastic Bob,
You seem to be quite worked up by the fact that these people are trying to force their will upon every one else. Although I agree about the cat-5-o-nine tails (I like what you did there) you need to remember that some people only feel validated by bitching about anything they can. Do we really have the right to enforce our will that they should be less snow-flaky, even if it is for their own good and the good of society in general?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 12:20 GMT phuzz
Re: People can feel insulted by anything if they want, it is their choice and it is their right
Why is it that people that use the phrase "snowflakes", are always the ones who get so easily aggravated by tiny annoyances, and demand that everyone else change their behaviour to suit them?
Perhaps you just need a safe space away from those scary SJW's, so they don't trigger your ire Bob.
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Friday 30th August 2019 00:45 GMT veti
Re: People can feel insulted by anything if they want, it is their choice and it is their right
Sooo... *THEY* are trying "to FORCE THEIR WILL upon the REST of us".
Just for the record, what do you call it when someone advocates the use of instruments of torture to "adjust the attitude" of people who don't agree with them?
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 22:42 GMT el kabong
Google translate offers two definitions in english for the noun "gimp"
1) twisted silk, worsted, or cotton with cord or wire running through it, used chiefly as upholstery trimming.
"To stabilize a buttonhole, cord it with buttonhole twist, gimp or elastic thread."
2) fishing line made of silk bound with wire.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 19:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: The name Glimpse discriminates against people who are unable to see
Good Lord!
*takes out his pipe and throws his brandy at the fireplace*
Urban Dictionary?? You must be from the wrong side of the tracks, boy. A learned individual consults Rogers Profanisaurus.
Urban Dictionary truly is the street level equivalent of Wikipedia.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 18:29 GMT Robert Carnegie
Re: The name Glimpse discriminates against people who are unable to see
It's image editing software. I was already wondering how it rates on actual usability by users with difficulties versus upsetting people by having its name be a slang word for disability. And anyway, changing the name to "Glimpse" will just make computer users use "Glimpse" as slang for disability as well.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 17:01 GMT BlackFlag
Re: The name Glimpse discriminates against people who are unable to see
I have never in my life heard "gimp" used as a derogatory term for disabled. I have heard it used many times used to describe submissive male BSDM enthusiasts.
This isn't about disabled people. This is kink shaming. Gimps can't be talked about in polite society (which is apparently what the OSS community is now that Torvalds has been castrated by his daughter.)
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Monday 2nd September 2019 16:49 GMT Robert Carnegie
Re: The name Glimpse discriminates against people who are unable to see
I expect that generally, people who are disabled, most specifically American (which isn't a generally recognized disability), hear the word used more often than most others. The dictionary indicates also that it applies primarily, but not exclusively, to impairment affecting walking, How offending it is mainly depends on how offending it was intended to be.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:57 GMT Ali 4
Re: Eh?
Ahh, thanks. I'm in the UK and have never heard of GIMP being used as an insult. Mind you I do lead a sheltered life. Also this is the first time I've heard of the phrase "Abelist Insult". One learns something new every day, but I didn't expect to learn so much before my first coffee of the day!
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Thursday 29th August 2019 16:04 GMT John Savard
Re: Eh?
If you hadn't heard of the words "ableist" and "ableism", yes, you have been leading a sheltered life. People who have found themselves unable to avoid exposure to the latest dispatches from the front in the Social Justice wars might go so far as to ask "under what rock were you hiding", but that may not be a fair question; it is forgotten that some people just live their lives removte from trendy political disputes.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:55 GMT John Savard
Re: So, that would be everyone, right?
No, it addresses the point raised. Sexist if males are targeted because of their gender, racist if either sort of Asians are targeted because of their race, either the kind from the Indian subcontinent, or the kind from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam and related countries.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 16:01 GMT John Savard
Re: Eh?
It is true that gender is a term used for the grammatical response to the sex of animate beings and the animation status of things in general. However, it is also currently used for sex as a social construct as opposed to sex as a biological fact. Thus, the term "gender" is used in this manner when a distinction is made between cis-gendered heterosexual males and cis-gendered heterosexual females on the one hand, and gays and the trans-gendered on the other.
Notice how an antonym of transgendered was formed by borrowing the cis- prefix from chemistry. Of course, this isn't totally unproblematic, I suppose, since we're becoming accustomed these days to the mantra "cis- fats good, trans- fats bad".
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Thursday 29th August 2019 19:08 GMT katrinab
Re: Eh?
The idea that there are only two sexes is something that is peculiar to the Roman pagan religion and derivatives of it, including Christianity, which does actually take more of its traditions from the Romans than from the Jews. It is only backed by science if to choose to willingly ignore the cases where it isn’t. A surprisingly large proportion of women do actually have Y chromosomes.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 22:53 GMT jsmith1030
Re: Eh?
An "ableist insult" is, among other things, something you trot out to distract others, and perhaps yourself, from the fact that a product/service is not usable by people with disabilities when it damned well should be. I'm disabled, and I, for one, sincerely wish people would feel free to insult me as much as they like so long as they spend the money to make their products accessible as they are often legally required to do. Alternatively, let's at least have the honesty to tell those of us who are disabled: "we don't care, go kill yourself". Is it that the problem is hopeless and the only things we can focus on to make ourselves feel better is the unimportant?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:30 GMT bombastic bob
Re: Eh?
I think the name GIMP is AWESOME. It reminds me of a scene from Pulp Fiction.
As for the SJW's who have *NOTHING* *BETTER* *TO* *DO* than to *ANGST* over a *PROGRAM* *NAME*...
GET A LIFE you WORTHLESS SJW SCUMBAGS!!! and STOP FORNICATING WITH THE REST OF US and whatever NAMES WE WANT TO USE.
Might as well call it S&MSUBMISSIVE as opposed to 'GIMP'.
FORNICATING SJW's... !!! NUKE 'EM 'till they GLOW, then SHOOT 'EM in the DARK! (see icon)
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Friday 30th August 2019 10:12 GMT Kiwi
Re: Eh?
Read the list of them on the wiki page and I dare you not to giggle like an immature schoolchild. ;)
You and I must have read different pages.
El Reg - can we please get that "despairing for humanity" icon?
Interesting to see that when my Dr referred recently to a slight deformity I have in my toes, he was actually being offensive by using the word "deformed" instead of something else. And I see "Differently-abled" is now an offensive insult instead of the socially-acceptable euphemism for 'disabled" it was just a few years ago.
No wonder Bob goes apeshit trying to keep up with this stuff.. Oh, sorry, "apeshit" may also be considered an insult against those of alternative mental capabilities, or whatever I am supposed to use instead of "Mentally handicapped". I'd say this world is getting depressing, but that implies I have a mental health issue and that could be considered offensive to some.
Bloody hell..
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Friday 30th August 2019 22:36 GMT Anonymous Coward
Euphemism treadmill
It is only right that we should be nice to each other, and not use abusive/derogatory language, but, unfortunately, what started off as a perfectly reasonable and decent idea gradually turned into a cottage industry for the "professionally offended".
All too often, it now seems to be the case that no sooner have we managed to get most of civilised society to agree on a preferred polite term, than a professional member of the professionally offended decides to come along and dictate a new term, having found some reason to dislike the previous (and until then, inoffensive) term.
I often find it hard to believe that there is genuinely much useful further progress going on there (surely the fact that decent people no longer use gratuitously offensive terms is a good thing?) and that there's really rather too much ego masturbation for the professional offendee involved, than anything else.
(Take "BAME" for example: why is this currently considered more "woke" than "BEM", and what is supposedly wrong with just "ethnic minority" in any case, is there really a genuine and justifiable reason for black people being highlighted more than any other ethnic group there? It almost seems racist in itself, reducing people of other ethnic backgrounds to an implied second class status?)
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Friday 30th August 2019 23:05 GMT Kiwi
Re: Euphemism treadmill
It is only right that we should be nice to each other, and not use abusive/derogatory language, but, unfortunately, what started off as a perfectly reasonable and decent idea gradually turned into a cottage industry for the "professionally offended".
I largely agree - but the problem really does come down to intention vs possible meanings. Take for example the posts between myself and "Sed Gawk" (apols if I got the spelling/name wrong) - one sees a term as a serious racist slur, the other sees it as a normal part of conversation - the experience of one is that it is an insult against those people, the experience of the other is those people use it as a term to identify themselves. (please don't anyone take my using "those people" as a racist thing in itself, it is not).
I could say to my partner "You could lose a little weight". It could be an insult or attempt to shame him, or it could be a serious bit of advice spoken from love and concern for his wellbeing. But I can gaurantee if someone else heard it, there's a high chance that someone else would choose to take offence on his behalf while he sees it for the caring comment it is intended to be.
I grew up with a friend who had a serious physical deformity in one of his legs. Then we all referred to him as "crippled", and he still does today. He knows none of us intend any offence, and it's the proper term for his basic condition - he was crippled and required crutches to walk at all. I also have known people who meet the definition of "retarded" who use the term correctly and expect others to do the same. If he does something he knows is bad and says "sometimes I'm such a retard" he doesn't expet people to be offended, the term is being used in it's correct form.
If I refer to someone (inc myself) as "black", "fag", "lame", "crippled", "suffering depression", "bonkers" etc I am intending an accurate description NOT an insult (at least most of the time). If I call someone a "stupid yank" then I am probably intending some form of insult or offence, if I call someone a "stupid idiot" then I am expressing my frustration at their actions/words and intending to show them how I believe they are portraying themselves.
I have dealt with a lot of stuff over my life from my own physical limitations (not as obvious as a limp or other physical disability, although I used to "run like a spastic" as I did have problems smoothly controlling my limbs at speed though I could still win 100m sprints) and through my sexuality, but above all this one of the things most offensive is when some complete stranger has a go at my partner because he called me a "fag" or something else they find offensive. We've accepted the language, we use it for each other in fun, who the hell are you to tell me how I should feel when someone I love uses a term I happily accept? (not directed at the posting AC!)
I agree - there are many terms that aren't intended to be offensive and are quite accurate. Constantly changing terms not only leads to much confusion, but can lead to a great deal of upset as well. Someone comes up to me and asks about someone I know, and I say "Paul? Yeah, he's gay", and someone else wants to physically assault me because "gay" is no longer an acceptable term, but I haven't yet learned that how I describe myself is no longer PC.
Anything can be used as an insult if it's intended to be an insult. Anything that is NOT intended to be an insult should never be taken as such, even if the current stupidity considers that it should be.
(One site I read last night even said that my nephew, who learned ASL because he knew kids with hearing issues, cannot be referred to someone who "knows ASL" as that is an insult against deaf people rather than accurately saying he is multilingual, much as the rest of my family (all of us have learned other languages though I could no longer hold a conversation in any of them through lack of use)
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Thursday 29th August 2019 12:12 GMT SonofRojBlake
False reasoning.
"The most modern and often used version of the word "gimp" is an ableist insult"
That's just... false. It might have been true in 1993... but I note that GIMP only started as a project AFTER the release in 1994 of Pulp Fiction.
I would be prepared to bet folding money that if you surveyed 100 people, well in excess of 50 and probably close to 100 would associate the word with the very-much-able-bodied leather clad gentlemen that Bruce Willis encounters while Ving Rhames is providing the entertainment for Zed, leading to Zed being dead, baby.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:48 GMT John Savard
Re: Eh?
Some people have medical conditions that, for example, prevent them from walking normally, so that they need to use a wheelchair to go from place to place where most of us would just walk.
The term "ableist" is coined from "disability" and "racist"; just as racism is ascribing false significance to race, ableism is ascribing false significance to handicaps. As the term "gimp" is felt to be like the word "cripple", an inappropriate term to use for a person with a mobility impairment, it is termed an ableist insult.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:10 GMT devTrail
Divide and rule
I don't buy the story that the software "weren't permitted by their institution to use it in the classroom because of the name". It is widely used in universities and other public institutions and anyone knows that the name is an acronym. They exaggerated the impact of the name and I suspect the usual divide and rule is the real issue.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Divide and rule
Having dealt with a number of high schools, middle schools and elementary schools, I can see the issue. Unlike universities that have far more technical people working to maintain their systems, public primary and secondary education levels tend to have one IT guy and everyone else just gets by. When you only have a handful of dedicated art or photography teachers and they are not technically proficient -- and work with a bunch of other teachers who may not have had much exposure to FOSS -- you are likely to be uncomfortable suggesting software that has a name that some may find offensive.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:47 GMT Ross 12
Re: Divide and rule
That's rarely how it works though. It's more likely like this:
School: What's the name? And how much does it cost?
Me: The GIMP and it's free
School: free? hmm what's wrong with it? and it's called _what_? All sounds a bit amateur.. we'll stick with our Adobe corporate licensing
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Thursday 29th August 2019 06:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Divide and rule
Me: The [X] and it's free
School: free? hmm what's wrong with it? and it's called _what_? All sounds a bit amateur.. we'll stick with our Adobe corporate licensing
insert X with random names like Linux, and at least more than half of them will reply exactly the same, because they are unfortunately not the targeted market.
The real targets are users who are willing to enter into the ecosystem. When enough of those users exists, then the rest will follow.
(example: look at smartphone adaption rate to computer adaption rate. There are plenty of people who are still unwilling to use a computer even when their job depends on it.)
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Thursday 29th August 2019 04:10 GMT IceC0ld
Re: Divide and rule
from an earlier post in a different thread :- proving that MAYBE there IS a case for the renaming after all.
Daughter, in need of Photoshop, for some school project, we can't afford that, so told her to search for GIMP ..........................
in hindsight, I SHOULD have told her to search under G.I.M.P
but since then she is very quiet around me, and just stares quite nasty daggers TBH
---
as an update, she is still a bit wary of me :o)
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Friday 30th August 2019 10:54 GMT Kiwi
Re: Divide and rule
I personally don't believe this story.
I quite believe it myself, especially given the original context (I kinda recall the post - you can find it by clicking Icecold's name).
Me.. I won't dare search for "G.I.M.P" let alone Gimp, even when I am alone. And with company around? Hell no... (Unless, it's that sort of company and I want to get this party started!)
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Friday 30th August 2019 04:11 GMT bombastic bob
Re: Divide and rule
"I could definitely see how a school *may* be put off."
no, no, NO! Don't let *THEM* have a foothold in your mind!
It's all just another big, fat, manipulative LIE. Wrapped in false "caring". Don't buy it. Your life will be better NOT being hypersensitive about what MIGHT offend.
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Friday 30th August 2019 08:02 GMT GruntyMcPugh
Re: Divide and rule
AC: "I've always had a bit of a pause for reaction when someone has seen GIMP on my desktop."
I just sparked up my Ubuntu VM, and the shortcut on mine is called 'GNU Image manipulation program' and so is the title bar when it's running,... there's just a brief splash screen during startup that says 'GIMP 2.10.12'
So I dunno what the odds of someone shoulder surfing you andf seeing the word 'GIMP' is,.. pretty small I reckon.
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Friday 30th August 2019 12:03 GMT Allonymous Coward
Re: Divide and rule
It's a pretty big splash screen with GIMP in quite shouty letters, at least on my machine. And how long it hangs around depends on how fast your computer is, as well as how many fonts etc it tries to load at startup...
Otherwise though, yeah. Good point well made. If you actually go and look at how it's deployed (for Ubuntu anyway) this feels a bit like a storm in a teacup. The only other place that obviously mentions "GIMP" is an entry in the Help menu. Feels like a minimal-effort sort of thing to change without the need for a fork.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:26 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Divide and rule
It's FOSS, of cause you did not buy it!
But no, I know of an actual example, where this also would not fly. The school had very strange decisions made, and the IT staff member was left with nothing to go on most of the time. Having to also go to them with strange names for software, would have made their work to get some sense out of management, even harder.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 22:06 GMT jake
Re: Divide and rule
"Have you ever tried searching for "gimp" from a school internet connection?"
Have you? I just did, using DDG. All the schools I tried[0] brought up GNU Image Manipulation Program related links, until the very bottom of page two (wiktionary.org: "To wrap or wind (surround) with another length of yarn or wire in a tight spiral, often by means of a gimping machine, creating 'gimped yarn', etc."). Seven results down on page three brought up mersenne.org (Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search), the rest was about the photo editor. Page four was all the photo editor.
I didn't go past page four. Most folks don't go past page two ...
[0] Stanford, Berkeley, SJ State, SF State, Santa Rosa JC, Foothill JC, Sonoma Valley High School, Palo Alto High School. All the results were identical.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:41 GMT Halfmad
Re: Divide and rule
When I worked in schools the Arts and IT staff were the most chilled there, the name of a software wouldn't have been a problem.
I deployed GIMP to several hundred PCs in high schools, back then "GIMP" was a term used in gaming to say something had been reduced in effectiveness and that's how the kids also used the word.
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Friday 30th August 2019 11:18 GMT Kiwi
Re: Astronomers are more mature...
Upvote for unashamedly using the correct spelling of "sniggering" in this thread!
I find your use of the word "sn*****ing" to be highly offensive as it contains the word "n*****" and you knew that full well!
A few years back, during the President Obama's time at the trough, I watched 3 news items. There was a warning that some people may wish to change channel/turn the TV off/leave the room etc for one of the times as it contained material some viewers may have found disturbing.
One was footage from a multi-fatal accident here in NZ, a van involved in a crash where most of a family was killed including children, bodies covered with sheets visible in the wreck.
Another was footage from Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria showing scenes of fighting, footage where you could actually see people being shot and (almost certainly) killed.
But it was the middle one they gave the warning about. An address by President Obama where he mentioned that people should not get so upset "When someone uses the N word" when there were many more issues the country was facing that needed to be dealt with. Seeing fairly graphic footage of the scene where a local family died? Yeah not the sort of thing I would like to see. Seeing much more graphic footage of people firing weapons intent on killing others? Definitely not something I'd want to see - would've appreciated warnings on those bits. But hearing Obama speak in that manner? Not something anyone should consider offensive or otherwise. Even if he used the word "Nigger" he, like me, used it in an entirely appropriate context - no one in their right mind should find that offensive.
(Shut up Bob. We know you find every utterance of Obama to be highly offensive! :) )
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:55 GMT fidodogbreath
Re: Divide and rule
The full quote was: "I have, on two occasions now, recommended this program to photography and graphic design educators (as an alternative to Photoshop) who told me that they considered it and found it good as software but weren't permitted by their institution to use it in the classroom because of the name." (emphasis mine)
Tindall did not claim that no educational institution would permit instructors to use it due to the name; she said that that had occurred in two specific instances.
That statement can be true, while it can also be true that other educational institutions use GIMP despite the name.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Divide and rule
It was just a polite way to tell her no way to use such software, with is really a gimp compared to the leading software applications. No way you can learn actual photography post-processing with it. Non-destructive editing layers? We've heard of it, maybe in 2030-2040 we'll have something. Sure, you can use it as it is, and work hard to overcome deficiencies - it would be like teaching math using Roman numerals.
I would not accept my children to be forced to use a subpar tool just because of some ideology, regardless of its name. It would be like forcing them to learn Esperanto instead of some more useful language. There are so many missing pieces in GIMP still, they should think how to add them, instead of fighting over a stupid name.
Anyway, it was renamed when GNU (which I think is an insult too) forced them to rename it in their lame attempts to force their own ideology over everything that is FOSS. Just all "libertarians", they have to force onto you their very own idea of "freedom".
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Friday 30th August 2019 11:24 GMT Kiwi
Re: Divide and rule
Non-destructive editing layers?
You've never actually tried it have you?
Several years back I had a friend start some work on a photo for me using Photoshop. I took the files she created home with me that night, used what I'd seen her do, and finished the project. Took it round to her the next day and she was amazed at what I'd done with GIMP. I even taught her a few tricks her beloved photoshop could almost do.
A couple of years back I tried to do something really stupidly simple in Photoshop Excrements. Gave up after 4 or 5 hours butting my head against the ridiculously idiotic interface and severe limitations of that bit of crapware. Put my Gimp Suite on and hey presto, 20 minutes later had a finished image ready for publishing.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:52 GMT juice
Re: Divide and rule
> I don't buy the story that the software "weren't permitted by their institution to use it in the classroom because of the name"
All it takes is one complaint from one parent, and it'll be gone faster than a teacher heading to the pub after marking the end-of-year exams.
Schools have incredibly limited resources, even at the best of times and are incredibly sensitive to controversy. It's just not worth the hassle or risk.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 10:08 GMT Just Enough
Re: Divide and rule
anyone knows that the name is an acronym
No they don't. And besides, what you are saying is that everyone who already uses GIMP, knows what GIMP means. When the issue is the reaction the name gets from people who don't already use GIMP.
Much of the reaction against a name change seems to be "I don't have a problem with the name, so you shouldn't either. And if you do, that's your problem. Silly snowflake." That's not how you encourage uptake of any product. The fact that GIMP is free doesn't change this.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 10:57 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Divide and rule
Hey, you're talking to GNU worshiper, the IT equivalent of "politically correct" fanatics, they think there's only one anointed way to create and deliver software, and everything else that doesn't fit their ideology is evil, whatever they think and do is right just because, and you can't challenge it or they will go mad and start to insult you to death.
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Friday 30th August 2019 02:56 GMT Charles 9
Re: Divide and rule
The problem is, the kind of people they would be talking to have two things going for them: prominent municipal connections (such as a high position in the PTA or equivalent) that can influence school budgets...and LAWYERS. Either one can make schools pause (they don't want lower budgets, and they certainly don't want the bad press of a discrimination lawsuit).
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Thursday 29th August 2019 13:09 GMT Gordon861
Re: Divide and rule
I work at a local authority and needed some form of image tool, Photoshop was out of the question due to cost and they suggested Paint. It took a while for them to eventually allow GIMP to be installed, the IT Team were fine, it was the middle management that needed to authorise the installation of a program called GIMP.
Also, the idea of improving the interface "yes please", coming from using Photoshop for years I often feel like I am fighting the interface on GIMP.
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Friday 30th August 2019 11:27 GMT Kiwi
Re: Divide and rule
Also, the idea of improving the interface "yes please", coming from using Photoshop for years I often feel like I am fighting the interface on GIMP.
I personally find it the other way around - probably a matter of what you've learned. Just like I use CLI for a lot of things where there's apparently perfectly good GUI tools, because my early Linux days were spent working remotely on headless systems :)
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:47 GMT James Anderson
Re: With that name
Quite the opposite, for seriuos image processing it's either the ludicrously expensive photoshop or the very able but comes with wired UI GIMP. Everything else is just a variation on MS paint.
The UI is not really that bad once you get the hang of it but I thing a lot of people open up the app, look cluelessly at the strange Windows and go back to Photoshop once they worked out how to shut it down. If they really want market share they really need a more conventional UI which doesn't take a month to get used to.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 22:08 GMT rnturn
Re: With that name
And how long did it take for these users to become comfortable with Photoshop's user interface? I hazard a guess that I'd have just as much trouble transitioning from GIMP to Photoshop.
Jeebus... not every Linux software package has to lower itself to aping whatever the Windows equivalent looks like. Heck, legal departments with nothing better to do would probably sue the projects if they did.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:35 GMT Anonymous Coward
"aping whatever the Windows equivalent looks like"
You may have missed that Photoshop is an Apple Mac application first...
And let's be sincere - most Linux UIs are bad and ugly. Even the widgets and fonts are ugly.
The lack of skilled UI designers and developers is very evident. It requires skills that go far beyond pure coding.
Apple first and Microsoft later have invested far more in UI design - although since Vista MS lost its tracks.
Anyway, being Photoshop the leading application with the larger market share, it's GIMP that needs to win Photoshop users, not vice versa.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 08:46 GMT Intractable Potsherd
Re: "aping whatever the Windows equivalent looks like"
I don't care whether things are "ugly" or the opposite - the only issue is whether whatever it is does the job efficiently. GIMP fails that test from my point of view - as someone mentioned earlier, just trying to work out how to close the program is a challenge! I am far from being a regular user of GIMP, and I always get a sinking feeling when I need to use it, because I know that the quick job will turn into something completely other due to the crappy interface. We are far along enough in software development to have an idea what a standardised interface should be - just like the arrangement of car pedals. It may not be "the best", but it reduces the learning curve sufficiently to be the most efficient.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 16:19 GMT Dave 126
Re: "aping whatever the Windows equivalent looks like"
I did try the Gimpshop add-on to make Gimp look more like Photoshop, but it caused it to crash. Got it working eventually, then found Gimp didn't work with 24bit (HDR) images, that needed something that had been forked from Gimp several versions ago and seemingly abandoned. Oh, and the free transform tool wasn't full featured, it was gimped.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:20 GMT Spudley
Good on them. This has been overdue for at least a decade.
I'd be willing to bet that the project would have actually been a better piece of software today without that name as well, because I'm fairly certain there are devs, and testers who have backed away from it due to the name, and even funding, just as there have been users.
If they're worried about what happens when a project changes name, they could look at projects that have been forked, such as Jenkins, MariaDB, LibreOffice and others which have done just fine after what was effectively a name change (yes the original projects carried on, but just about the entire user base and all the developers jumped over to the new one).
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:35 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Dick
No, but changing parents might help. Though this may give away identity (I guess a search on names/schools may give a return)...
I went to school with (still have the yearbook to prove it):
An A Pratt (Self explanatory)
Phillip Mycock (Was actually a slightly different name, but close enough to occasionally mispronounced out loud as "Feel Mycock" for short or "Flick Mycock", occasionally caused gasps in teach/parent presentations).
An A Ford and an A Smith (Mundane)
A "Gordon Bennett" (Which we loved shouting out really loud whenever something went wrong)
and finally a poor L "Blowers", who also did not get kindly treated. :(
Bullying was not something I was part of, my own name being difficult to pronounce. And thankfully, most of use saw them as good character. But I was especially confused at the type of parents who gave those names, knowing they could be used as slang/slurs/accidental insults.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:36 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: Dick
The root problem there seems to have been with the surnames. The parents would have been well aware of that having plenty of experience themselves. The only option would have been to change their own name first. The fact they haven't suggests that generations of them have each learned to live with the consequences and maintained solidarity to their own parents.
The initials thing... Yes, we carefully avoided any pronounceable set of initials for our own children although it's only just occurred to me that if our daughter had married someone whose surname began with a Y she'd have become DRY. What we hadn't spotted was the potential confusion when, as happened, she started post-grad research.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 17:39 GMT The Oncoming Scorn
Re: Dick
Having been through the gauntlet of my nickname at school (A certain advert on UK TV only increased my misery in the 70's) same as my father, my eldest has adopted it proudly upon leaving school. I have to admit while we tried to preempt names that would lead to bullying, my daughters name did get a twist on it that wasn't foreseen at the time of choosing.
An odd little quirk on naming my kids that I noticed while driving home from the maternity hospital with the youngest. The eldest child's, middle initial is the same letter as the next child's first name, while their middle initial is the first letter of the youngest.
Totally unplanned, the naming convention, not the child.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 19:21 GMT Ken Moorhouse
Re: Surnames
I'm sure that there are many telephone marketing organisations that get one group of people to research names of suitable targets, then another group to actually make the calls. Reason I think this is that, one day, someone rang my office number and asked to be put through to Mr Hawhouse (I presume that's what the researcher playfully entered onto the call-list). After this confident opening line, the pause was so pronounced you could almost sense the cog-wheels going round in this guy's mind. I think (this was year's ago now) my response was along the lines of "You're selling something, right? How do you think you're doing so far?"
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 23:31 GMT Alistair
Re: Dick
If you want names that predicate bullying, I spent an enormous amount of time in grade school dealing with the Alis ..... in wonderland ... tag. And I can recall at *least* 7 teachers or school officials that tried to convince me to loose the name. Hell no. I like my name.
GIMP is an acronym. Clearly denoted as typed. And oddly, 'a bit of a gimp' is what happens when one turns an ankle up here in canuckistan. Yes, it can be used by less literate types as an insult, but it truely isn't the common meaning up here.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 21:45 GMT DiViDeD
Re: Dick and other unfortunate soubriquets
Ah, in the far distant past (OK, the 80s), the company I was working for worked with a fleet transport company run by one Wayne Kerr
Whether the poor lad's parents saw this name as a way to toughen him up or were simply clueless was never determined.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:42 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Dick
People too do change their names because of that - just it's a process more complex than changing a software name. It doesn't look to me that the switch from "OpenOffice" to "LibreOffice" caused much trouble, despite the fork name being more stupid and ideological.
A friend of mine not long ago change its last name because in our language it had the same meaning of "tit\teat". And he was really tired about it and didn't want to inflict it upon his children.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 08:12 GMT Peter Ford
Re: Dick
Hey - my daughter Amy is an A Ford - what's wrong with that?
Apparently I was destined to be Peter Craig Ford until my parents realised that P.C. was a poor choice of initials (at least in the UK)
I know of a family who named their daughter N.O. Chance
Worse is that she has an aunt who is Miss A. Chance
I collaborated on a project at one time with a client who's rep was called Jenny Taylor - I had to explain my childish snigger to my PM after the first meeting...
And as for Mr. & Mrs. King calling their son Wayne...
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Thursday 29th August 2019 16:28 GMT Dave 126
Re: Dick
Not if they are a private detective or a male performer in the adult movie industry.
Human names are to distinguish us from others. A software name gives a clue to the function of the software, or at least should do. Notepad, Paint, Photoshop, CorelDraw, Illustrator, Inkscape, SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Audition, Office, Word - even a novice would have a fair guess at which one is for writing a letter and which is for drawing shapes.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:22 GMT AnotherBoringUsername
About time
The name should have been changed long ago.
I've got no time for un-necessary political correctness, but at the same time, if you name your food recipe app "Nazi-snacks", it's going to prevent it going more mainstream, no matter how good the program is.
Getting upset about it moving to a more sensible name is miles more silly than changing it to a widely acceptable one.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 23:35 GMT Orv
Re: About time
Agreed. I'm not offended by the name, but I feel silly recommending something that to many people sounds like it's named after a fetish character in a Tarantino film.
It's actually long been one of my go-to examples of how open-source projects are awful at picking names. "git" is another one. Everyone I talk to who's hearing the name for the first time reacts with "they call it WHAT?"
I remember the vulnerability scanner app SATAN used to come with a script to rename it to SANTA, for religious people who were offended.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 00:45 GMT jake
Re: About time
"to many people sounds like it's named after a fetish character in a Tarantino film."
I respectfully suggest that most (probably over 85%) of the folks who might be offended wouldn't be caught dead watching a Tarantino film. Of the reminder, a vanishingly small number would have any need whatsoever of a program with the power and utility of GIMP or Photoshop. It doesn't take much to put a caption on a cute cat picture, so why suggest it to them in the first place?
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Friday 30th August 2019 17:00 GMT Orv
Re: About time
I didn't say they'd be offended. Something can be stupid/embarrassing without being offensive.
There's actually kind of a big hole at the low end of photo manipulation software. On Macs there's Preview, which does a good job of cropping and annotating. On Windows I'm not sure what to suggest since Picasa stopped being developed.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:28 GMT Andy Tunnah
Huh
I guess I never made that connection. I've called people a gimp, don't get me wrong, but I've never linked Gimp and gimp. Weird how that works.
And I'm not saying that in a sarky way. I'm actually OK with all of this. Like we stopped using spacker, and other insults to people's physical well being. If all I have to do to stop a person feeling insulted, is change 1 word, it feels like literally the least effort I could make.
Glimpse makes it sound like a Chinese knock off though
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:16 GMT Muppet Boss
Re: Huh
+1 for Glimpse sounding suspiciously abibas. Gimp is a name of an open source graphics editor in many human languages; it is a pity that coincidentally it is also an offensive word in English. Can we rename the offensive g-word into glimpse please and keep the program name intact?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 06:44 GMT Charles 9
Re: Huh
I'd personally never heard the term applied to people but rather to things to indicate they're below an accepted standard-bearer (a "gimped" imitation of something). Since such a meaning can apply to the program itself (GIMP being a "gimped" Photoshop), it can result in bad press whether it likes it or not (as language tends to be organic and change only slowly).
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Thursday 29th August 2019 12:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Visionism
> So what's with this blatently visionist new name "Glimpse" .... didn't they consider how off-putting this will be to potential users who are unsighted?
So they dislike the name GIMP because it is slang for a disabled person, especially someone lame, and decide to go with Glimpse instead?
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
>> The team is looking at screenshots of existing image editing application user interfaces to inform design mockups
Be interesting to see how that goes, since in my experience the thing that puts most people off GIMP is the UI, not the name.
That said, the MythTV guys did a similar thing not long ago, and they managed to make the single worst UI I've ever seen into something even worse.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 01:48 GMT DrBed
"AP's so much better, only 50 quid..."
> Sorry, but I stopped using Gimp as soon as I bought Affinity Photo - it's so much better, and only 50 quid for life. It also kicks Photosh*t in the face!
Does it have G'MIC or AnimStack? I didn't think so. Yeah, so much beter.
Also I bet you never heard of Krita...
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:51 GMT mark l 2
I don't buy that changing the name would have caused confusion with people who used the software. Companies re-brand stuff all the time and it often increases uptake. And off the top of my head I can thing of two open source projects that renamed, Firebird to Firefox, XBMC to Kodi and it doesn't seen to have harmed them.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 14:58 GMT BigSLitleP
Look, i'm about as PC as they come. Left wing, environmentalist, feminist. (Yes i know this is El Reg, yes i know I'm painting a target on my back)
This is nonsense. How many people nowadays know the word gimp? If it was called "FAG" (Free Advanced Graphical tool) or "NAZI" (..........I can't come up with an acronym, feel free to start a competition below!) then I could understand it. Even i get sick of people's touchiness.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
Google. Blame Google.
Search strings? Like, if you want to advertise or get a program/project out there, you need both unique and user/school/accountant safe search terms. Else you end up losing out to filters.
While Glimpse may not be a unique hit, it is not filtered. Take up the name with marketing if the new one is no good, but understand the old one may get blocked more often.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
Look, i'm about as PC as they come. Left wing, environmentalist, feminist. (Yes i know this is El Reg, yes i know I'm painting a target on my back)
As somebody who is none of these things I don't see why anybody would care about any of those things.
Left Wing? Nobody cares. Until we start told that unapproved thinking is wrongthink or thoughtcrime, which your not doing.
Enviromentalist? Believe it or not, *nobody* wants to actually turn this ball into an uninhabitable rock. Many of us may however disagree with the best methods to prevent it from becoming an uninhabitable rock.
Feminist? Most people are, if you take the meaning as being "equal rights and opportunities for females". Support only drops off a cliff when exceedingly unreasonable things are demanded.
And yes, gimp is a stupid name that needs to go away as the product grows up.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:52 GMT BigSLitleP
I've given you an upvote for being a sensible person. You're right, most people don't (and shouldn't) care about the things i've listed. They just tend to make people start shouting "SJW!" from the roof tops.
I guess i just don't see the problem, which ironically is the same answer I get for most of the causes i've listed from people that drive me up the wall. When asked for a free graphics tool, I always answer "try gimp" and very few people have gone "what did you just say!?", they normally say "What's that and how much does it cost?". If more people threw a strop about it, i'd be more inclined to back the name change. At least it's just a fork.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:30 GMT Teiwaz
Look, i'm about as PC as they come. Left wing, environmentalist, feminist. (Yes i know this is El Reg, yes i know I'm painting a target on my back)
Someone once asked me if I was a feminist, I replied they might as well ask me if I was a Roundhead or a Cavalier, as far as I was concerned, that was a war long over before I was born.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:47 GMT Phil Lord
(Yes i know this is El Reg, yes i know I'm painting a target on my back)
The Register is not really known as an abode of the left wing. There are a set of people around with those opinions, but they (well, we) hardly overwhelm the place.
In this case, there are a number of issues with the name GIMP -- as well as having alternative definitions that are not good, it's also a big acronym that doesn't suggest the use of the software. Neither of these are particularly sensible from an advertising point of view. Sodipodi died a death for a somewhat related reason (no one could remember it).
I'm a little unconvinced that renaming GIMP is worth the effort, but it is not a good name, nor has it ever been. This is far from being touchy.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 10:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
The Register is not really known as an abode of the left wing. There are a set of people around with those opinions, but they (well, we) hardly overwhelm the place.
Well, naturally. "left wing" and "right wing" are merely attempts by mainstream politicians to build power bases by causing divisions into "tribes" and then deliberately causing arguments between tribes that they can then benefit from in true "divide et impera" fashion. The mainstream politicians are more or less a mindless slaves to the opinion of one or the other most prominent long dead economic theorists who had a good grasp of issues of either one or two hundred years ago, but given that those theories were based on conditions that no longer exist an application of their ideas in todays world is more or less impossible.
Tech issues are happily more or less devoid of mainstream politics since the dead economic theorists in question were either dead before electricity generation was invented in one case, or in the other dead before gas lighting had been eliminated, let along before computing came along so both have no opinions to offer on tech issues.
Most political figures therefore can't wrap their heads around the issues, and when politicians do try and get involved their attempts usually unite the entire technical community in mockery of their complete and utter lack of any understanding of the issues. This leaves the space reasonably free of people screaming "YOU MUST THINK $THIS", which means that the space is more or less exclusively comprised of free thinkers who roundly mock any stupid idea on it's lack of merit. As the free thinkers are the majority, the "followers" tend to be the ones coming out with the outright vicious kickings of stupid ideas that other people have clinically dissected and shown to be terrible ideas.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:14 GMT msknight
I have to admit...
...that as a BDSM practitioner, the software being called GIMP has caused more than a few issues in my and neighbouring dungeons.
The errors and miscommunications that have come about, "resizing," "snapping," and most commonly, "cropping," have resulted in more things being bruised than just egos.
Unfortunately I do envisage a period of more pain and discomfort as the discussion will now inevitably turn to "The GIMP was forked." and a few people will inevitably go off in as much of a flutter as their chains will let them, and we'll have to calm down the poor dears.
Am I joking? ... You'll never know.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
Good move.
I have no problem with new words and definitions, or with language progressing or changing. If done correctly.
Here, no one is changing the meaning of an old word, "Unlimited" internet being limited. No one is saying the old word is forbidden.
It's just realising, that, especially in our multilingual connected internet world, an acrynim that is now connected to a different meaning word, does not fit the best aspect of the software it is suppose to describe. Or that a in joke/meaning may not translate globally (you may call your friends by a nickname, but it may not work or be understood in public).
I'll give Glimpse a go, and a chance. Recommend it to friends!
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:23 GMT Anonymous Coward
On the other hand.
Changing the name of the following :-
Windows 10,Windows 8.1,Windows 8,Windows 7,Windows Vista,Windows XP Professional x64 Edition,Windows XP,Windows Me,Windows 2000,Windows 98,Windows NT 4.0,Windows 95,Windows NT 3.51,Windows NT 3.5,Windows 3.2,Windows for Workgroups 3.11,Windows NT 3.1,Windows 3.1,Windows 3.0,Windows 2.11,Windows 2.10,Windows 2.03,Windows 1.04,Windows 1.03,Windows 1.02,Windows 1.0
didn't make product any better.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:24 GMT Fat Bob
Bring out the GIMP
I've never heard of gimp referring to a disabled person. I've only ever heard it in respect to some guy in a rubber suit, and that's only because of Pulp Fiction. Well, mainly because of Pulp Fiction.
I'm not sure if this helps the argument either way but I thought I'd mention it.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:57 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Bring out the GIMP
I find the name "Bob" to be sexist, offensive and demeaning to fellatists. I demand that everyone named Bob should be called Bert. Rob is not acceptable as it implies theft such as being robbed of virginity or as the case of today's society that has been clearly robbed of sanity.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 15:33 GMT disgruntled yank
Hate to tell you this
But the word gimp is also used for plastic strips used weave lanyards, fabric used to trim upholstery, etc. Schoolchildren, upholsterers, and many others have been exposed to the word, and most have survived.
(Oddly enough, Wikipedia's entry on gimp is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoubidou .)
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:02 GMT John 104
Who Complained
Other than people wringing their hands over the perceived insensitivity of the acronym, have there been any people who actually have a physical malady complaining? Is it like the Washington Redskins, or Kansas City Chiefs arguments by like minded hand wringers who determined that these names were offensive only to realize that Native Americans have no issue with them whatsoever?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:20 GMT Jaaaaaam
Re: Who Complained
Er, the Washington Redskins didn't offend any Native Americans?
Wiki I know, but:
Native Americans have been questioning the use of the name and image since the 1960s, while the topic has received widespread public attention since the 1990s. Native Americans demanding change include tribal nations, national tribal organizations, civil rights organizations, and individuals.[2] The largest of these organizations, the National Congress of American Indians, counted the enrollment of its member tribes as totaling 1.2 million individuals in 2013.
It's a long, long way from "some Native Americans are fine with the name" to "Native Americans have no issue with the name whatsoever"
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:38 GMT karlkarl
Do you mean as soon as they went with the dark theme?
Suddenly everything feels slower and less crisp.
Back in the day when the tools, image and properties were all separate windows (this was common on UNIX) and it had issues with a lot of window managers. It was fiddly and awkward. However I would still prefer that over the current state.
Luckily for me my art skills are so crap; I can use mtPaint and not notice any decrease in my productivity / quality XD
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 17:37 GMT Ken Hagan
Sadly, that is the most depressing part of the whole story in my opinion. If they were just intending to make Glimpse "GIMP but with a different name" so that they automatically inherit all future work on the upstream code then I would not have a problem. But no, they've already announced plans to split the developer base in two by diverging from upstream.
(You may argue that such plans don't, in themselves, split the developer base. But the number of willing FOSS developers is a finite resource and I'm struggling to think of a case where some took an existing FOSS product, forked it, and increased the amount of work going into either branch post-fork. On the other hand, I don't struggle at all to remember counter-examples like LibreOffice, which survives only because OpenOffice so very obviously died on the vine within a few months of the split.)
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 16:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
"gimp" is an ableist insult
I am OUTRAGED!!!! On behalf of all glipsists, pardon me, antiglimpsists, I'm also gravely, ney, eternally grateful to those brave antisouls who took the matters into their disablist upper limbs to fix this festering injustice. Excuse me, I need to depart to twitter about it and facebook about it NOW, Oh, I'm SO OUTRAGED!!!
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 17:02 GMT sid1950
An interesting issue. I've been using GIMP exclusively for about 15 years. Before that I used PhotoShop. Before that CorelDraw, and QuarkExpress. In the commercial software / hardware world advertising is most important. Back in the early days of computers there would be conversations along these lines:
Tech guy: I think we need a Guild xxxx for this project.
Procurement guy: Is it made by IBM?
There was a joke: "What is a computer?", "A big blue box with IBM on the side."
For me the name GIMP hasn't been a problem. 30 odd years ago one of the regulars in my local pub was a young woman with Cerebral Palsy. She was smart and funny, and worked as a software engineer for a security company who specialized in the banking sector. She liked to come into the bar on a busy night and shout "Make way for The Gimp!" very loudly".
However, like a lot of FOSS, the practice of naming applications in a humorous way is great for those who understand, but really difficult for those who don't. GIMP actually stands for GNU Image Manipulation Program. Now try to explain GNU! "Its an iterative acronym, it means Gnu is Not Unix" Collapse of stout party! I don't mind trying to explain all this. My experience with computers goes back to 1968! I know and understand most of the history. So in this case, while I will probably continue to use GIMP because I understand and like the UI, I will follow the development of Glimpse with interest. If I'm still around in 10 years, who knows I might be using it then!
I will only ask one thing, please try to use QT for the UI! I use OpenSuse as my main desktop distro with KDE Plasma for the desktop. I consider myself a power user, and I can make it do exactly what I want. For laptops I use LUBUNTU. It works on all my devices, including a 13 year old MacBook. What I have found is that with the newest versions of both distros, QT based apps worked better on Ubuntu, than GTK on OpenSuse, in terms of the amount of dependencies needed. If you have all the needed dependencies installed GTK on rpm, or QT on deb are both seamless. It's just that my experience is that the latest version of QT works really well on deb, without having to have the whole KDE backend.
One other thing to mention here. GIMP is the go-to for the film industry. It was used by WETA for the Lord of the Rings & Hobbit. The reason? Being FOSS, they can write their own plug-ins. The graphics world is being divided into two camps. A commercial camp where procurement is dictated by the "know-nothing" bean counters, and the professional world where the users dictate, and FOSS will eventually rule. I'm retired, after spending 25 years as a Video Editor (initially Video Tape Editor!) and still have friends in the industry. All the London FX houses use FOSS. They all have Linux server farms for rendering. Workstations are either Mac or Linux. Some versions of Avid or FinalCut Pro editing software may run on a Windows workstation, but there are a lot of high-end editing, FX and color grading apps that now run on Linux. And the editing software that I preferred and still regard as the Rolls Royce of editing apps, Lightworks, is available for all platforms. So I have the free version, and use GIMP and Blender for captions & FX.
End of rambling! Good luck with the fork.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 01:32 GMT DrBed
@sid1950
Agree with most of it, just this:
I will only ask one thing, please try to use QT for the UI! (snip) QT based apps worked better on Ubuntu, than GTK on OpenSuse, in terms of the amount of dependencies needed.
...use MATE @Mint (or Ubuntu) instead: good, old, stable and fast Gnome 2x / GTK - GIMP likes it ;)
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Thursday 29th August 2019 08:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
You've just listed why the "year of desktop Linux" is still forecast around 20.000 CE
1) Stupid application names which are not-marketable and in an era of search engines will flood you with thousands of irrelevant results.
2) Software fragmentation, compatibility issues, and bad UI libraries.
3) The movie industry has usually so much money, especially for big productions, they will use whatever fits their given needs better, or fits the "vision" of the leading people. You will find they use everything, and also have the money to customize whatever they use. Rendering is a pure computational task that doesn't need much on an UI. Guess anyway most preliminary work is made on Apple machines and Adobe software.... probably just because of the input hardware support.
That's completely different for most other business that have not that budget. If you're a freelance photographer, you need an application that works out of the box - you don't have tens of developers tailoring it to your needs.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 17:37 GMT felix_rufus
But it is taken
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLIMPSE
" GLIMPSE is a text indexing and retrieval software program originally developed at the University of Arizona by Udi Manber, Sun Wu, and Burra Gopal. It was released under the ISC license in September 2014.
GLIMPSE stands for GLobal IMPlicit SEarch...."
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 18:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: But it is taken
Weakly Interacting Massive Particle? Not very intuitive.
Remember Ford Sierra (means "saw" in Spanish)? Fortunately few people who visited Spain from the UK ever bothered to learn the language.
Rolls Royce missed an own goal in Germany by not launching the Silver Mist there.
(Daimler people say it's "Bayerische MistWagen" - Bavarian dungcart).
FIAT did the same by not launching the Ritmo in the UK as the "Rhythm" due to the association of Italians with Catholics and Catholics with an unreliable means of contraception.
tl;dr a name change isn't a bad idea. But I don't feel that Glimpse is the answer. Go the whole hog, call it FRUIT (Fotoshop* Replacement, User Interface Terrible.)
*Because Photoshop is a registered trade mark,so can't be used.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 17:39 GMT Fizban64
It's so easy to be offended these days
Well the title says it all, it really is easy these days for people to be offended. Perhaps there is far to much fluoride in the water. They better calm our mass drugging down a bit. Gimp is well known and loved, not like pulp fiction gimp, but we can all, well most of us can, differentiate between the two.
Seems very childish to me, grow up folks and grow a backbone.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:53 GMT sabroni
Re: Seems very childish to me, grow up folks and grow a backbone.
You've got to be talking about the reaction of the posters in this thread yeah? The only people massively upset by this are you lot. The people who forked it had a perfectly calm, rational discussion and decided to Fork the project. You lot have lost your shit big time over the fact a renamed fork has been created.
Most kids aren't this fucking stupid.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 08:50 GMT jake
Re: Seems very childish to me, grow up folks and grow a backbone.
What you are seeing, Sabroni, is backlash against the fuckwits who presume to be offended on the behalf of others. It's getting to the point where nobody can say anything about anything without somebody pretending to get upset about it in somebody else's name. Frankly, I find it grossly offensive that somebody might presume to be offended in my name. Be offended for yourself, by all means, but keep my good name out of your fantasy.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 10:51 GMT sabroni
Re: What you are seeing, Sabroni, is backlash against the fuckwits
No, what I am seeing is a bunch of entitled children throwing a hissy fit because someone had the cheek to fork an open source project and rename it, like the original project maintainers said they could.
Pick a fight when someone says GIMP can't be called GIMP anymore, not when someone creates a fork with a vaguely sensible name in an attempt to make the product more popular and well used.
Shouting "I'm not throwing a tantrum" while lying on the floor kicking your legs around doesn't mean you're not throwing a tantrum.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 15:21 GMT Handle123456
Re: Seems very childish to me, grow up folks and grow a backbone.
Perfectly calm maybe, but absolutely irrational.
Yeah, renaming a twenty years old project because some spoiled always-ready-to-feel-offended kiddies get offended by the name as it matches some slang, most likely newer than the app. Rational. Sure.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 18:05 GMT jake
I suggest ...
... nay, I DEMAND that every word, in any Human language, that might be misunderstood as something completely different than as intended by the speaker/author (regardless of the language of the listener/reader) be changed immediately!
It'll get rid of all puns, but at least the namby-pamby set will sleep better at night.
And you won't get arrested for trying to gift a German ...
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Thursday 29th August 2019 11:03 GMT Jou (Mxyzptlk)
Re: I suggest ...
German?
Du = You
Du hast = you did, but misread as hate, and also sung as "hate"
Du hast mich = You did me, not well translatable
Du hast mich gefragt = You asked me. Or more literal: You did me ask
"hast" can mean: Haste, did, hate, "Do you have" something....
But still English has the biggest thesaurus. Only to be beaten be Simplified English from that big colony to the west with that orange "elected" president...
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 21:42 GMT stuartnz
As someone born with cerebral palsy, I've always kind of LIKED describing myself as a gimp who uses GIMP. That said, I get the arguments against the name (there's a big difference between owning an insult as your own badge and having it thrown at you, this I know very well) and find the developer's FAQ response a little disappointing. As others have already said, setting aside the issue of whether it is "ableist", its name, for a variety of reasons, is or may be hindering uptake and awareness, so why not change it? GLIMPSE is a great rebranding, keeping both the original name AND more obviously linking to what the software does. I wish the fork well, and will keep an eye on its development.
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 21:52 GMT Anonymous Coward
"Even if our project falls flat on its face..."
Which, I'd bet has a decidedly non-zero chance of happening if the current code base is going to arbitrarily be changed from whatever it's currently written in to same trendy language that will force every bit of code to be re-written -- and likely be pretty buggy -- until a critical mass of developers who know the new language come up to speed on the application's functionality. Changing the underlying programming language ought to require that the fork go all the way back to V0.0.1. The GIMP team gave you the opportunity to fork the project and merely change the name. Why not simply stop there? (Jeez, the CentOS people weren't crazy enough to fork Red Hat AND re-write it in a new language.)
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Wednesday 28th August 2019 22:35 GMT Lorribot
it all about what you see
Whilst to me Gimp has more sexual connotations, as in a Gimp mask, that only come second in the offensive stakes to it's badly mangled user interface that is like a poor imitation of Windows 3.1. which pretty damning of a a product that is supposed to be all about design and good imagery.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 01:01 GMT cornetman
Personally, I think the last thing that the free software movement needs at this point in time is two subtly diverging GIMPs vying for attention.
If Glimpse survives, I can see confusion as to what plugins work with which version (quite frankly, there is enough confusion as is).
I also don't believe that the name is that big of an issue. It seems to be a purely American thing. The rest of the world just doesn't care enough to get behind it.
But then I cannot fathom why people lose their shit about the difference between "coloured people" and "people of colour". Again, this seems to a peculiarly American issue.
The comparison has been made with other splits. Usually, successful splits have been over issues that the main contributors have passionately believed in.
The LibreOffice/OpenOffice split was won almost before it had begun and had overwhelming support from the community right from the start for fundamentally free-software principles.
I can understand the Glimpse dev's stance and more power to them if they feel *that* strongly about it.
I just don't think there is sufficient reason or justification for it to succeed.
I think a good comparison would be Devuan. I have to take my hat off to them for standing up for their principles and they support a need. But it is never going to take over from Ubuntu or Mint.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 05:11 GMT jake
Re: Satan vs Santa?
But SATAN and SANTA are one and the same.
Consider that Halloween and Christmas are the same holiday ... As any techie will tell you, OCT 31 and DEC 25 are equal. Besides, have you ever seen Saint Nick and Old Nick in the same room together? I thought not.
Makes sense, though ... Who would YOU pick as the patron saint for the holiday best known for hedonism, libertinism, decadence and debauchery?
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Thursday 29th August 2019 02:56 GMT tempemeaty
I violently approve
Given a lottery win of sufficient size I'd financially assist the project to reach GTK 3 so it can to get it there fast as possible. Then I'd dump ludicrous amounts of money on the fork to empower them to really update the software and take it to a new level of awesome.
⎝(｡◁ﾟ)⎠(╹◡╹)
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Thursday 29th August 2019 04:01 GMT FrankAlphaXII
I'm sure it's been said...
But the only meaning of the word Gimp that I know is a slang term for a submissive in a BDSM context.
To put it in San Franciscan: They're kink-shaming and erasing the identity of those that participate in a BDSM lifestyle by changing the name to this, so I suggest the "Digital Object Manipulation and Mastering Experience", or DOMME. It gets rid of any ableist baggage and allows those involved in BDSM to proudly identify with the project.....
Yes yes, I'll see myself out. Mine's the one with the riding crop in the pocket.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 11:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I'm sure it's been said...
If I could upvote more than once I would.
I wonder if anyone would be so kind as to make a banner utility plugin for fanfold paper, and call it dotimatrix.
Or a professional level plugin to merge multiple images taken with defined time periods between them into a GIF? Could call it Pro-Lapse...
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Thursday 29th August 2019 05:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
Graphics Exchange dot com
There was a Canadian rag called Graphics Exchange. Lots of eye candy for designers, really nice stock and process. It had an eponymous website which, as you might imagine, must've disappointed some visitors looking for a somewhat kinkier kind of 'eye candy.'
Anyway, the name 'GIMP' has always ensured that most potential users won't take the program seriously. I wonder if they stick with the name for that reason, so as to lower people's expectations and to let them know it really isn't a serious alternative to Photoshop.
Flame on!
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Thursday 29th August 2019 05:49 GMT decoherence
Ignorance?
It is clear that some of the commenters here don't have any disabled friends. I can just imagine telling my friend with cerebral palsy, who can only walk with extreme difficulty and lives with near constant pain, that he should use the GIMP. 'No, it's okay, it stands for GNU Image Manipulation Program!' I'd tell him. 'Oh, well in THAT case I'll totally use a program that blithely shares its name with something aholes have been calling me all my life!' He'd say. Except with sarcasm. No, I would point him at Glimpse and be grateful for their efforts.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:34 GMT DuncanLarge
Re: Ignorance?
Ignorance has nothing to do with it. Its just an example of language being different across the world.
In fact, as The GIMP was created at the University of California back in 1995 it shows that language was different back then, or just in that area.
I know of many american terms that cause offense over here in Blighty but we just laugh it off as silly americanisms. I remember as a kid almost choking when Marge Simpson offered Bart a "fanny pack" or when some character on another programme told people he keeps his wallet in his pants, something that would be pretty disgusting if you mention this to someone in the UK when you offer to lend them money from said wallet.
I've also gotten used to ignoring the blatent swearing that amerians do on youtube whenever they use their fingers to represent the number 2 when counting.
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Saturday 31st August 2019 15:36 GMT decoherence
Re: Ignorance?
Yes, it is ignorance. What you described in your first couple of sentences is ignorance. It isn't a four letter word or a judgement on character, it's just something that's good to be rid of. Maybe some commenters have friends with CP who are ignorant of what the word gimp can mean because it isn't used that way where they live. That's fine for them but their ignorance (again, no aspersions!) doesn't change a thing. Also, I'm not casting aspersions on the developers at UC. I dont know why they picked that name and its not germane to what I'm saying.
On a lighter note, I'm touring the US right now and yesterday passed a beer store that advertised that they'd fill your growler. So yeah, language can be funny. It's good to be aware of how it can be funny and who your audience is.
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Sunday 1st September 2019 04:35 GMT Kiwi
Re: Ignorance?
That's fine for them but their ignorance (again, no aspersions!) doesn't change a thing.
The truly ignorant are those who choose to be offended on another's behalf, especially when it's over a colloquialism that has a different meaning in the context used, or where no offence was intended.
If I intend to offend you, your family or your friends (or culture), you yourself may be offended. If I do not intend to offend you, you have no right nor reason to be offended - even if it seems I intended to offend someone else. I get so sick of ignorant arrogant scum who think they have a right to be offended on other's behalf. Keep your self-righteous mitts OFF and get your nose out of my life. (not aimed at decoherence unless you fit the description :) )
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Monday 2nd September 2019 09:50 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Ignorance?
Nope. Not being offended on behalf of someone else. Passing on the message it is offensive. But not for "offense", but that you will lose customers/users because of it.
If I don't like chocolate, and you only sell chocolate flavour ice cream, you lose the customer. GIMP could look to gain some users if they change their name/system/gui a little.
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Tuesday 3rd September 2019 08:12 GMT Kiwi
Re: Ignorance?
Nope. Not being offended on behalf of someone else. Passing on the message it is offensive. But not for "offense", but that you will lose customers/users because of it.
Not likely really. Maybe they won't gain some, but anyone who uses it knows what it is, what the name is, and what the UI looks like, and enjoys using it anyway.
If I don't like chocolate, and you only sell chocolate flavour ice cream, you lose the customer.
Or you never get the customer. I'm a specialist in chocolate ice cream, I strive to make the best I can. I do a great job because I don't dilute my expertise with other stuff.
If I don't sell a product you like don't come to my store. Are you the sort of person who expects to get cheese'n'ham on rye at a hardware store?
A very bad analogy anyway, as I've worked in a couple of specialist shops and much prefer to buy from them - I'll get terrible meat at the supermarket, piss-poor fruit and veg, and mediocre deserts. The bakery however - their stuff has to come via divine inspiration! The worst butcher in the area does exquisite meat and even their cheapest sausages are far superior to the crap the supermarket serves, and the greengrocer? Fresh, sold by experts who can advise on all sorts of new cooking ideas - not the garbage that was fresh sometime last year that rots on the supermarket shelves.
(No, I don't have the time to shop around - but I make the time because life is way to short for supermarket swill)
GIMP could look to gain some users if they change their name/system/gui a little.
And they'll loose a hell of a lot more. Why should I have to re-learn my workflow because some people are just unable to understand the simplistic interface? Why should I have to re-learn the name because someone chooses to be offended by something that is not intended to be offensive?
It's not an offensive term, as a word or acronym. In whatever of the many definitions there are, it is not and never was offensive. But some people choose to be offended by the silliest little things, and the rest of us should have to suffer?
If you think "G.I.M.P" is offensive, I suggest you get out of your sheltered little world and travel a bit - see what things are like in other cultures, learn that words have many more than one meaning. As that terrible 80's (or 70's?) sitcom theme song said - "what might be right for you may not be right for some".
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Thursday 29th August 2019 06:01 GMT Anonymous Coward
Good luck to 'em!
I'm not personally bothered about the name (although I take their point about marketability), but I absolutely 100% support anyone willing to put work in on improving that utterly f*****g shite disaster-area of pea-brained user-hostiliity that is the GIMP's user interface!
Aaaand deep breath. Ahem. Sorry about the bad language there, but I do find that UI quite vexing.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:13 GMT DBarber
Since Agreement is Impossible, Why Not Name It Yourself
While this is so far down the chain that it will never be seen,
until I run for public office and all of my old posts are dredged up to destroy me,
since it is clearly impossible to come up with any name to satisfy a plurality, let alone a majority,
may I suggest that,
the first invocation up pops a text box simply asking: What Do You Want to Call Me?
Type in your desired identifier and all GIMP is replaced by your new name.
After that it can be an option on the Help menu to change program name.
What could possibly be better?
(And no, I didn't have the time or energy to read all 177 posts and counting to see who else came up with this before me)
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Thursday 29th August 2019 07:14 GMT ravenstar68
The scary face of the future is here?
I’m minded to suggest that the people in the Reddit thread be asked to read Fahrenheit 451.
In the book firemen no longer put out fires, but instead burn books, as over time more and more minority groups found certain things offensive. The thing is it’s not just books.
I’m minded of the Black Eyed Peas’ song’ Lets Get it Started. This was originally released as Let’s Get Retarded, and in the opening lyrics were the words “in this context, we mean no disrespect.” The title and lyrics was changed when the song was released as a single to no doubt avoid causing offence.
Do we really want to go down that road.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:41 GMT DuncanLarge
I love correcting people who miss-pronounce GIF.
I start talking about the Jraphics Interchange Format and then keep reffering to Jraphics designers and sometimes I say "Hey look at the tacky jraphics he uploaded onto our site, get him on the phone and I'll tell him what jraphics quality we expect".
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:01 GMT DrXym
Fork it for better reasons than this
GIMP needs to be forked because it is moribund, stuck in development hell. It needs a kick up the arse to get it going again, to make it a tier #1 image editing tool with a particular focus on improving speed and usability. The name of the tool is the least of its problems.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 16:44 GMT cornetman
Re: Fork it for better reasons than this
I dunno if that's entirely true.
They just recently came out with a massively different release with a shitload of additional functionality.
IIRC they are also planning a Blender-style GUI revamp.
Like a lot of free software projects, there are an awful lot more complainers than there are programmers willing to put some effort into the improvement of it. Developing a system like GIMP or Blender takes a huge amount of time and sacrifice.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 09:25 GMT DuncanLarge
Drinking my tea, I cough and splutter
Please tell me this is a late April fools joke?
However, I suppose this is a good example of the power and freedom given to everyone, users and developers, by Free Software such as this. I think the reason to fork is ridiculous, but I defend and applaud having the right to do so.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 10:17 GMT Mage
Indeed
Most people think of gimp suit.
It's a stupid name and was stupid even before the sex reference thing became popular.
The definition of gimp as disabled is older than the package.
The OED (Pocket 4th Edition 1942) has that it's a silk covered - wire core composite, or a fishing line using silk bound with wire or a coarse thread in lace making.
I'm not against acronyms, but: (1) They WILL get pronounced, (2) Do look up the word in decent British and American dictionaries as well as online.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 10:32 GMT Manolo
Soon...
English will become a very easy language to learn, once all the words that might offend someone, somewehere, at some time in some situation have been removed from it.
Pig: insulting to Muslims and policemen.
Copper: insulting to policemen.
Dog: insulting to Muslims.
Bird: insulting to women.
Crack: dirty word.
Dick: you shall henceforth be known as Richard.
Belgium: the most unspeakably rude word there is.
I have to agree with the FAQ: "we feel that in the long run, sterilization of language will do more harm than good."
The Dutch author Harry Mulish once wrote: "some people read like hoovers, they manage to get dirt out of everything".
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Thursday 29th August 2019 13:27 GMT Spanners
So...
Because a certain bunch of Yahoos in the USA misuse the word in a way that particularly particularly advertises their stupidity, I am expected to stop using the name for something and let someone pick a new one for it? Not acceptable.
All this will do is make more people aware of the word "gimp" and increase its use as an insult.
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Thursday 29th August 2019 13:35 GMT Old Lady
I am probably older than most if not all of you posting on here. I have known & used the word gimp since childhood. It was used to describe someone who had a slight limp “ He has been left with a bit of a gimp”. Usually the person had been injured in an accident or I suspect it was used.to describe injuries sustained in the war. Yes people were called Gimpy but it was meant as more of an endearment, never an insult. Now I understand like a lot of pet names it is used as a torment or an insult by morons that have nothing better to do so perhaps it is time to change it or is it. Perhaps the answer is to ask these cowardly bullies “Why are you calling me a computer program”
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Thursday 29th August 2019 13:53 GMT stuartnz
" I have known & used the word gimp since childhood. It was used to describe someone who had a slight limp “ He has been left with a bit of a gimp”. "
Interesting. I too have used the word (noun and adjective) since childhood, as self-descriptors, but the usage "he has been left with a bit of a gimp" is new to me - I would be more likely to say "he's a bit of a gimp, has a bit a bit of a limp". I've also been interested to see how strongly the word is associated with US English, since my own NZE-based idiolect is far removed from US English, yet I've been using "gimp" since the 70s.
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Sunday 1st September 2019 13:56 GMT Charles 9
Re: No matter what.
True story. Once had someone get in my face one day for calling him, "Sir." He almost shouted at me, "Do I look like a SIR?" When I responded, "Yes, you DO look like a SIR...SIR, and I'm under orders to call people SIR...SIR," he grumbled and walked away. Seems some people hear "sir" and think, "MAS-sir."
Often get a response from "Good <time>!" of, "What's so *&%(# good about it?!" or, "It ain't morning yet! I haven't been to bed!" or "The sun ain't up yet!"
There's just no pleasing some people.
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