Oh good. This'll go well. Amazon's Alexa will offer NHS advice Patients in the UK will be able to use Amazon’s Alexa voice assistant to search for information from the National Health Service's website. The nation's Health Secretary - and app-maker extraordinaire - Matt Hancock brushed aside concerns about privacy or handing a commercial company potentially sensitive medical information …
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Amazon is not sharing any of this information with third parties, nor is it selling products or making product recommendations based on this health information, nor is it building a health profile on customers.
All information is treated with high confidentiality and Amazon use multi-factor authentication to restrict access, service encryption, and audits of our control environment to protect it.
And if you believe all that, I've got a bridge you can buy.......
How long before the data is left on an 'unsecured server' how long until 'opps we sold that data with a bunch of other data to a 3rd party', how long until "your data is safely stored on a server in the USA where it can be sold by Amazon US. a totally seperate company to Amazon UK'
Gawd I'm cynical.... or am I?
[IAAD]
At one level I am worried about patients telling Alexa confidential information "hey alexa, my friend has a drippy dick, what should he do?"
[Can play some good jokes on friends by asking their Alexa some interesting health questions.]
On the other hand, people are going to be using Alexa for health anyway, and with so much disinformation / misinformation e.g. vaxxers then there is a public health justification in ensuring if accurate and well-curated information is available, and the cost is zero (because this information is already developed) why would you NOT do this?
it will gather based upon your illness and location (and voice patten matching)
BUT
I am sure that you will soon start getting adverts/emails recommending cures and other health related stuff based upon your Alexa queries.
Don't panic people. This is just another step in their quest to rule the world. Remember they are fighting with Google (arch Slurpers) and Facebook (The dragon with the crypto currency) for world domination.
Don't use Google or Facebook and amazon is only used as a last resort. How long can I withstand the seige eh? (/s /s /s)
Idiot: "Aluxa, my hand always hurts."
Aluxa: "Amazon sells supplies to permanently remove your pain. Ordering now."
only AFTER brexit, and AFTER we've signed that bestest motherfucker deal with Mr Trump (Take that, EU!) And please, don't imply we get "nothing in return". We get a DEAL.
And I wouldn't put it past Mr Hancock to time this nhs/amazon deal to send a signal to our bestest US friends that yeah, UK's ready for a quickie.
Well, it's technically correct, after all, the word "shared" implies that you get something of equal value back, and that's definitely not the case.
"Patient data is being donated to Amazon as part of this agreement." might be better, or maybe even "Patient data is now the sole property of Amazon as part of this agreement."
Whatever they're doing with it though, it's not sharing, because we get nothing of value back.
Whatever they're doing with it though, it's not sharing, because we get nothing of value back
4% of Amazon global turnover the first time they fuck up and give/sell/abuse personal data, which will probably be 0.000001 seconds after they launch it.
This is a GDPR minefield, TBH I'm a bit surprised Amazon are risking it because there is no way this will end well for them.
It may have passed your notice but Westminster is absolutely sovereign to the extent that one parliament cannot bind subsequent parliaments. We saw this with the much heralded attempt to enshrine the existence of the Scottish Parliament in law. That was admitted to be a fiction in the Brexit trial to ensure parliament got a vote to invoke Article 50.
Also they have passed a portmanteau bill giving ministers the right to change legislation by fiat after Brexit. Which means a stroke of the ministerial pen will be all that will be required to remove such pesky legislation.
Those who voted for Brexit 'to take control' did not pause to consider who might take that control and what they might do with it, like removing fundamental rights which interfere with the right of corporations to profit from and exploit you or that Nissan might decide it is untenable with continent wide supply lines to remain in Sunderland after Brexit so all their jobs might disappear.
I suspect they meant "No patient data held by us is being shared with Amazon. Yet".
The information that can be obtained from analysing the person's questions to Alexa, plus everything else Amazon knows, is utterly shared with Amazon.
Compare:
"The press release promised: "The technology will help patients, especially the elderly, blind and those who cannot access the internet through traditional means, to get professional, NHS-verified health information in seconds, through simple voice commands."
and
"The service provided by Amazon will not provide any form of diagnosis or advice. It will help people become better informed about conditions and mange their healthcare more effectively"
What the rubber duck does it actually do then? If I'm feeling ill, I want a diagnosis, not a list of 20 things that I might have followed by "this is not authorised medical advice, please contact your GP"? About the best I can think of is it can issue regular reminders that it's time to take your tablets. Though I can think of quite a few cheaper and less intrusive ways of people managing to do that...
I'd really like to hear from someone like Shadow Systems for their views on how effectively blind people can use NHS Direct (phone or Web) at present, and if Alexa "AI" would add anything to that.
"There is no cost to this agreement to the taxpayer". Yeah, because we're the product being sold (out), not the customer. FOAD, Alexa
For reading? I've heard friends say neighbours they know use Alexa for "read me X" even for general enquiries. This is for recently acquired blindness. Those using digital brail type readers may differ in use case. :)
So that is great.
The other side of the app systems (tracking), less so.
This feels so very, extremely, maliciously wrong at so many levels...
But perhaps less clear, but much, much more worrying...
Something is wrong. Something is struggling. Something needs some real TLC.
It isn't a secret that the NHS is struggling (would love to have discussion on why, but let's keep it focussed) that work loads should go down, capacity should be available, and people should be helped, not in hall ways, and within reasonable time frames (like the location where I work nowadays OUK). Indeed, a pressing situation which needs an urgent, thorough solution...
We can solve it easily, the technology is there. The only thing we have to do is apply it. We don't have to do it on the spot, there, we can do it elsewhere. At the persons location. All other arguments about this topic are just simple scaremongering. The solution is there. We got the technical solution, let's just do it and all will be good.
Being a HCP myself, I ask myself though whether Alexa (Amazon) also has an app for an "end-of-life" conversation...
I want a diagnosis, not a list of 20 things that I might have followed by "this is not authorised medical advice, please contact your GP"?
And you shall have a diagnosis, probably followed by a list of Chinese-sourced remedies generic medical products that Amazon sells that are relevant to your symptoms.
I think the original point of the thread is a good one. What kind of information is it actually getting? If it's just querying a page online, how much information can that really provide? Is it going to do a simple search and start reading one of the health topics like this one with little or no reason for choosing it? The content is more nicely phrased on the NHS site, but we could get the same benefit from implementing feature number six on this XKCD.
I actually didn't think this was really a big issue at all, if all it's doing is allowing Alex to relay stuff from the public NHS website. No more worrying than your ISP/browser/Gov from knowing/recording you've accessed the NHS website.
But the point about a teenage girl using it about a sexual related query and that query being stored on the account is a good example of the worry. Likewise Amazon collating the queries and using that to build profiles etc. Very troubling indeed.
It'll only end up there if you start asking Alexa health related questions. Are we so inept as individuals that we cannot be held accountable for our own decisions?
If I choose to buy an Amazon spy device and then choose to ask it direct questions relating to my health - surely that's my own ****ing fault?
I noted this is NHS Digital, so guessing NHS Wales, NHS Scotland etc aren't included somehow?
I'm sure their prime interest is only money. It might not be MONEY, and expanding into this hugely lucrative field of healthcare (or health "care") must be the next holy grail for Amazon. So, in the short run, the first shot will be free and they'll probably double backwards to demonstrate how much they care and respect personal data, etc. And when the government looks for new "venues" to save money on public spending, there's this our trusted, proven, reliable business partner, Amazon, perfectly capable of delivering... And why stop there, you still have education and police to be replaced with alexa. Savings ahoy.
Alexa linked privacy concerns aside (as they are there regardless where Alexa have access to the NHS website or not), what seems to be the problem? It's not like they are linking your NHS number/NI to your Amazon account.
Today: People ask Alexa health related questions and receive answers based on random sources on D'internet
In the future: People ask Alexa health related questions and receive answers based on the NHS knowledge database.
Half of the GPs do exactly that - search the NHS website based on the symptoms you give them.
Yes and no. I have actually witnessed a GP use Google to figure out what she should do next. But that's linked to her account and would require some absolutely unheard of data breach to also be linked to me as a patient; whereas asking Alexa outright or just through some random eavesdropping would be linked to me personally. Okay, in practice they may not be very different, but I'd rather not be quite so resigned to the craptasticness of everything as to just invite trouble. Well, I mean not unless I explicitly choose to do so.
On Holby City*, I saw an actor looking at one of my web sites to get the (correct) answer to a medical problem she didn't understand !!! I had got the correct diagnosis before she did that.
Unfortunately they used a screen shot with my site's name removed...
I was tempted to ask for a writer's credit and a small fee ;)
Oh, I'm not a medical doctor
* A medical drama on uk tv for overseas readers
If so, can you answer a few questions for me?
- Can anyone ask about my order history?
- Can anyone ask about my kindle library?
- Can anyone ask about my Prime movie history?
Just assume the reason I'm asking is that I'm a dibbling sex pest who is hiding his secret life from his wife. I'm not, but it's what you'll all assume :)
In practical terms Booth asked what would happen to a teenage girl's enquiries about contraception and whether her father, and Amazon account holder, would get to listen to them.
So what was the answer? "Oh shit, we didn't think of that, it didn't get put into the requirements, and it'd be too difficult to retrofit recordings never appearing in the history list just for little old us."
**START HERE:
All Alexa transactions are linked to an Amazon account.
That Amazon account has an account holder name and address.
Everything ordered through that Amazon account is linked to the account holder name and address.
Some of these orders will be delivered to third parties with other names and at other addresses.
Everything mentioned near an Alexa device is recorded and is linked to the account holder name and address.
*
Now start to consider OTHER account holders, perhaps with nearby addresses, perhaps with the same or similar surnames.
Start to consider the third party names and addresses mentioned for deliveries. Perhaps these third parties ALSO HAVE AMAZON accounts.
Now Amazon goes back to **START HERE.....
*
And before you know it, 50% of the population is in a huge LINKED database OWNED BY AMAZON.
*
How can anyone, never mind a government minister, NOT PUT THIS TOGETHER AS A HUGE PRIVACY THREAT?
So you ask Alexia a question it goes to effectively a publically accessible website and gives an answer.
How is that worse than looking it up on Google, going to the website, have Google and God knows who else tracking you on that website and following where you go next.
Yes Noscript and all that, bit here we are talking about the other 99.99% of the population.
To me it seems more private toJoe Public than using a web search or mobile app.
Don't know why Big Brother Watch would be unhappy with this, they all start at 9am pledging allegiance to the flag down at 55 Tufton Street, don't they?
Could be helpful if knowledgeable Romanian or Indian Alexa techs are listening in and can interrupt your doctor with sage advice,
"Ohhh yes, I have seen this sort of thing before, many times, many many times; my poor old grandmother suffered exactly the same way --- ignore all that rubbish, you need to mix hydrochloric acid, butter, bees' wings, about 100 grams, newt spittle and cordite, and apply it directly for 10 days..."
Googling on a medical problem is better, you get more choices on what to read, can study answers carefully, have several tabs or browser windows open at once for comparing things and re-read bits without repeating the questions, and some of the data sources used will cover bits in more details than others.
Why would any sane person use a search device that only gives the first answer it finds when searching?
I just don't see the attraction of these ask a question devices.
Alexa is just a glorified search engine. Most of us probably google our symptoms trying to self-diagnose anyway. Not always a good idea but we do. Don't even see why this is news, to be honest. It's just another portal for the health paranoid and whether you type something in, or ask Alexa verbally, they will have your data. If you don't like that, don't ask.
I find it very touching that so many seem to think that our personal data is safe with with the NHS. Have you ever wondered where research laboratories get their information from when you receive a letter asking you to take part in research for your particular ailment. I don’t mind being ask to take part but I would like to be asked first for permission to pass on my details. I wouldn’t worry too much about Amazon keeping data about the odd health question, I worry more of how many people have access to my personal data held by the NHS.
It depends on how it's done. If a research group asks NHS for a pool of people that fit the study parameters and NHS sends out an enquiry written by the study group, that's not a big issue. If they just hand your information to the study group, that's a problem. Of course, you should be allowed to opt out if you like, but it could be a good way to free services and maybe some dosh.
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