back to article Oz watchdog claims Samsung's leak-proof phones ad campaign doesn't hold water

Samsung created "false, misleading and deceptive" representations in marketing material about the Galaxy smartphone range's resistance to water, according to a consumer watchdog down under. The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission (ACCC) today launched legal proceedings against the world's largest mobile handsets maker …

  1. Anonymous Coward

    I have a great idea!

    Why not make the Galaxy Note 7 water proof. This way, it can be used in water, where a burning phone is likely to do less damage. Also, this could be used as free pool heating. It's a win-win situation!

    1. Chris G

      Re: I have a great idea!

      For normal use outside of aqueous environments just fit it with a water jacket, pump and radiator.

      The Steampunk crowd will love it.

      1. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

        Re: I have a great idea!

        For normal use outside of aqueous environments just fit it with a water jacket, pump and radiator.

        And what'll happen when a criticality occur and the phone try to do an impromptu чернобыль impression? I have to assume that the water jacket, pump and radiator will be graded high enough to allow said criticality to occur without any sort of collateral damage? :)

        1. Claptrap314 Silver badge

          Re: I have a great idea!

          Not everyone has had enough Russian to get the joke...

          1. Hans 1

            Re: I have a great idea!

            Not everyone has had enough Russian to get the joke...

            True, but everyone on here knows of a search engine that has ;-)

      2. 404

        Re: I have a great idea!

        Stoking your coal-burning Note 7 to charge it? I really really like that idea... Burning question is will you get the tiny coal shovel or is that extra?


        1. Kernel

          Re: I have a great idea!

          "Stoking your coal-burning Note 7 to charge it? I really really like that idea... Burning question is will you get the tiny coal shovel or is that extra?"

          The Note 7 was a Samsung product, not Apple.

    2. Tomato42

      Re: I have a great idea!

      I think you are familiar with different kind of lithium

      Personally, I wouldn't extinguish burning lithium with water

      1. Charles 9

        Re: I have a great idea!

        Airlines rend to be sensitive about fire issues. Their SOP for a burning phone battery is to douse or dunk it.

        1. Mr Sceptical

          Re: I have a great idea!

          In secondary school, one of our chemistry teachers detonated (complete with smoke trails) a small lump of pure lithium dropped into a water tank.

          It was very exciting considering we were sitting about 1m away peering in at it fizzing in the water before the bang!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I have a great idea!

            The best teachers are closet pyros...

          2. Charles 9

            Re: I have a great idea!

            Last I checked, cell phone batteries are NOT made of pure lithium.

            These two stories seem to support my case. Otherwise, cell phones of any type would not be allowed as carry-on luggage (lithium is legally hazardous cargo and requires special packaging to transport, especially in the air):

            Phone battery pack suspected cause of fire on Virgin Atlantic plane diverted to Boston

            Cell phone battery ignites on Delta flight from Norfolk to Atlanta

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I have a great idea!

            Lithium usually does not create an explosion. In fact, the standard demo of the different alkali metals was to start with lithium (fizzed a lot), move on to sodium (sparks and flames) and then cautiously add potassium (big flames and bangs). It demonstrates how as the outer electron gets further from the nucleus, it becomes less strongly attached and hence more promiscuous.

            As for transporting lithium; it is perfectly safe in small quantities. A very effective way to carry small quantities is to store the lumps stuck into soft paraffin wax in a jar. If there's enough heat to set fire to the lithium, you already have a much bigger conflagration to worry about.

  2. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

    I take any claims of waterproofing with an extremely large pinch of salt.

    What is wrong with putting the phone inside a plastic baggy, sucking out all the air, then sealing said baggy, then taking said phone (inside said sealed and vacuumed baggy) for a dip?

    Cheap form of waterproofing which can be removed quickly and easily :)

    1. RichardBarrell

      I think a couple of features might stop working. The capacitive touchscreen may have trouble: a quick test with my Android and a bit of cellophane suggests that they're not good at picking up fingers through plastic. I'd expect the WiFi and Bluetooth to stop working too, since water is mostly opaque to signals around 2.4GHz?

      1. Dave 126

        If my phone falls in a puddle it is due to butter fingers on my part - it's not planned. So fitting it in a plastic bag first is not an option.

      2. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Hm. I take exactly this suggestion to defend against the daily liquid sunshine here in Florida, and my Moto G6 and Nexus 6P had no problems with the touchscreen through a Ziploc sandwich bag. I don't have a Samsung for testing, but I don't think the tech is that different.

        I do think a Ziploc sandwich bag is much different plastic than cellophane though.

      3. Frumious Bandersnatch

        I think a couple of features might stop working

        The "stopping working" isn't due to the plastic bag. I tested it (For Science!). I would guess that the electrolytic properties of sea water would be more of a problem, especially for the touchscreen. I think that you're right about networking, though.

    2. Chris G

      I have a three year old Ulefone Armor2, it is rated IP68, the blarb said you can take pics under water down to two metres.

      I have done that in seawater on several occasions as well as carrying it in a not very watertight stash bag when sea kayaking.

      I have had no problems with it at all.

      Just as well it's waterproof as it has a huge battery, is heavy and sinks like brick in water, I bought it for its dust and water resistance and it does what it says on the box.

      1. Haku

        That's great to hear, I have the Armor 3 because I wanted a phone designed to be stupidly tough - not that I intend to put it in extreme environments, it's the peace of mind knowing it'll be able to cope.

        Also the 10,300mAh battery means I only have to charge it once every few days, but I try to charge it up to just 80% as lithium batteries that stay at 100% charge deteriorate quicker, like for instance the batteries in laptops that get left plugged in all the time.

        1. Mr Humbug

          My daughter had the original Ulefone Armor, which she bought because she kept breaking her phone. She accidentally dropped teh Armor in about 8 inches of sea water while on holiday and it stopped working.

          That was the first of three phones she destroyed that summer.

        2. Aquilus

          Mine is set to cycle between 55% and 85%. I can unplug it, plug it in, as much as I like, and it'll just drain down to 55% then start charging til it hits 85% then sit there. I <3 it so much.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      My only use for water resistance in my phone

      Is to not worry about it getting wet in the rain. I have it mounted on my handlebars when I go on long bike rides, and during summers in the midwest it isn't that uncommon to be caught in pop up thunderstorms. I check the radar when I see dark clouds forming but sometimes the rain develops faster than I can turn around and get back home. I used to carry a sandwich bag in my saddlebag so I could pop my phone in that and stick it away in my saddlebag if it started to rain. Now I just let it rain on the phone and save the time I'd waste putting it away when I could be pedaling furiously those last few miles hoping to beat the real downpour. Same applies if I'm outside and get rained on, I don't have to worry about my phone getting wet in my pocket anymore.

      I'd probably not be unduly worried around a pool - it may not be rated for going 6 feet deep or for chlorine but I doubt that slight extra pressure would be enough to get in the insides wet if you quickly retrieve it and dry it off. But I sure wouldn't tempt fate by having it on my stomach like that guy in the Samsung ad (and getting a weird tanline not to mention getting it all gross with sunblock...) if I'm floating on a pool. It doesn't help at all in other bodies of water, because if you drop it off a boat you probably won't find it again even if it was 100% waterproof. Lots of farm runoff around here in the midwest, so zero visibility underwater and probably not smart to open your eyes underwater anyway e.g. farm chemicals like herbicides and pesticides.

    4. eldakka

      I take any claims of waterproofing with an extremely large pinch of salt.

      Don't do that! It's only fresh water resistant, adding salt to it will put it in an environment Sammy claims it isn't designed for.

      1. Is It Me

        I can vouch for the Pixel 2 surviving being dropped in to about a 1.5m swimming pool, I managed to do that last summer and the phone is still working correctly.

        I will be making sure that all future phones are rated to at least the same level of waterproofing

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I have a camera that's advertised as water resistant, but in the instruction manual it says not to get it wet. Anyway, having worked for years at a company that manufactures IP-rated stuff, I wouldn't do anything more than just go out in the rain with something rated for full immersion.

    1. D@v3

      waterproof camera

      I had a camera, an off brand GoPro type thing. Advertised on the box with pictures of surfers, and 'suggested uses' including snorkeling. Took it swimming once, for about 10 minutes, popping back up above the water frequently. Died. Completely. Tried to contact the manufacturer, but they had disappeared.

  4. arctic_haze

    Good to know.

    Luckily all I did to my A8 was to use it ut during a rain or pour tea over it. It did survive both.

    I did not try to dive with it because I know enough physics to know it would be out of range, anyway.

  5. Caver_Dave Silver badge

    Certainly not cave proof...

    ..but then not much is!

    I remember getting through the Ogof y Daren Cilau entrance crawl (2000' of tight, often crawling on your side and often wet) with some snacks in a small, but robust, plastic BDH chemical container. The container had split and leaked a little water and the four chocolate bars (2 different types) were just one amorphous lump with shreds of wrapper dotted around. Extrapolate to sensitive consumer electronics yourself!

    Anyway mobile phone frequencies do not penetrate rock, so on rescues we use the very low frequency MolePhone, built into an ammunition can. There was a report of a CUCC expedition in the Picos de Europa using walkie talkies to communicate in a large shaft far underground, and getting interference from BBC Radio 4 LW. (It was going to be the basis of a PhD, but I've not hear anything since.)

    I'm with Thoguht in not believing any IP claims. Pelicase is my preference if I want rugged and waterproof..

    1. mad_dr

      Re: Certainly not cave proof...

      I'm sorry but I stopped reading after your first sentence. Anyone who willingly submits themselves to an experience that sounds to me like something taken straight from a horror film or the Chilean mining accident must be insane and therefore not sufficiently qualified to offer an opinion on something as mundane as phones.

      Big respect to you for doing it though. Have one of these --->

    2. mordac

      Re: Certainly not cave proof...

      Wow not been in Daren Cilau for years! Awesome place, had a near death experience helping in one of the digs that was hoping to connect to Agen Allwedd (whilst attempting to impress a fit young female caver (it didn't)). Good Times!

    3. Anonymous South African Coward Bronze badge

      Re: Certainly not cave proof...

      I hate reading about tight, confining spaces. And that made my balls crawl up for safety.

  6. Mark 85

    Now why in the world would anyone need to use a phone in a swimming pool? Or while swimming in a lake, river, ocean? The ads shown in the article just seem improbable. Or is it that the target audience just can't put the damn phone away?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      At least texting while drowning won't kill anybody else

      1. JetSetJim

        Except perhaps the fool trying to rescue you.

    2. Argh

      I can imagine that some people might want to take underwater photos in a pool.

      1. Kernel


        I can imagine that some people might want to take underwater photos in a pool."

        I can't help thinking that a GoPro (or similar) would be a better option for that - the standard housing for my Hero 4 Silver is rated to 40 metres and there is a dive housing that's rated for 60m - more than adequate for most swimming pools, although personally I'd be testing the case without the camera in it first.

        1. Claverhouse Silver badge

          Monitored by Wi-Fi

          Or one could prior install strands of fibre-optic cameras lining the lower reaches of the pools to ensure the integrity of girls' bikini bottoms is maintained if that dedicated.

        2. Tomato42

          if people were always thinking of "better options", phones wouldn't have cameras in them in the first place...

    3. JimC

      GPS for one

      I used a waterproof smart phone for getting GPS tracks of sailboat races. Did my best to locate it where it wouldn't actually get underwater, but its always a possibility. The Achilles heel with my Sony "waterproof" phone turned out to be when hot phone containing hot air hits cold water...

      1. EveryTime

        Re: GPS for one

        That's the big challenge with waterproof electronics, especially sailing instruments.

        The electronics are heat soaked in the sun for hours, then hit with a slam of cold water from a thunderstorm or wave. The seals that meet specs when the room temperature device is gently lowered into room temperature water fail. And they fail just at splash point, with the pressure drop sucking in water drops. Even without immersion, and sometimes when the most of the surface is dry.

        Of course cell phones have the additional tell-tale moisture stickers so that the manufacturer can deny warranty service for water damage. They all turn pink with age, faster in a pocket but it happens even in a dry purse.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: GPS for one

          The pressure when phone hits water can easily exceed a bar.

          As my phones have gently immersed themselves in water while I was clumsily falling in, the pressure hasn't damaged them. So for all that have fallen in (all Sony's, fwiw) have survived just fine.

    4. Oengus

      You have to have some way of posting selfies every few minutes... how else will anyone know you are still alive on (anti)social media?

    5. doublelayer Silver badge

      I'm not saying there is a good reason for complete immersion for a while, but two points are, in my opinion, valid:

      First, people might really like the guarantee of water resistance if they think they might run into a water-related accident that could kill their phone. I've had that happen before--I was asked by a friend who was away to ensure a filter was running on a swimming pool they managed as they were trying to sell that house, and I slightly missed the edge as I stepped over. My phone did not survive the two seconds of immersion. If I thought that would happen again, I'd get a phone likely to survive. The same could be true of people who go out on boats for a while, people who frequently use their phone outdoors (E.G. navigation) when there are puddles about, or people who worry about being caught in the rain.

      Second, Samsung said their phones were waterproof, and showed examples which were wrong. It doesn't matter if we don't really think the uses of the phones are worthwhile if they were intentionally misleading people about it. If I make a drill and say you can drill through stone with it, you better be able to drill through stone with it or I have been misleading. It's not enough to say "Anyone really wanting to drill into stone would get a more professional tool. They should only be using a drill like that on wood." I said it in an advertisement, and fortunately that's one point where it's not legal for me or anyone else to lie.

      1. Adam 1

        opinions don't matter

        In Australia, we have the Australian Consumer Guarantee which covers all products and services.

        This states that products must:

        "match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising"

        And also

        "be fit for the purpose the business told you it would be fit for and for any purpose that you made known to the business before purchasing"

        Samsung is in rather a spot of bother if they have been rejecting repairs on the basis of them getting wet.

    6. Robert Heffernan

      I did exactly this with my Note 8. Underwater videos of the kids diving and jumping into the pool. It worked great for me. Didn't bother the phone one iota. Works perfectly to this day.

    7. defiler

      I expect because they don't want to abandon it next to the pool of they go for a dip. Remember how much these things cost, and how easy they are to lift if unattended.

      My phone is not waterproof. I don't care, because I'm more likely to have a paperback by the pool.

    8. keith_w

      if you take it with you while you are swimming it can't be stolen from your stuff on the beach/public pool deck.

  7. LeahroyNake

    Galaxy S7 owner

    I have had a Galaxy S7 since they were launched and have never had an issue regarding water ingress and no faults have emerged after...

    Dropping it in the sink with greasy hot soapy water then washing it under the tap.

    Playing ingress in the rain several times a month. The touchscreen also keeps mostly working even if I have to wipe it to see anything.

    It droping out of back pocket into the toilet followed by a really good scrub afterwards!

    It has been dunked in a pint on more than one occasion.

    Generally living in Wales and occasionally a hike up a random hill.

    Getting pushed into a pool with it in my pocket and not realising for 15 minutes until I got out.

    The only non issue is that if it has got wet somehow it knows and will not allow you to charge it until it thinks the USB port is dry. It's bloody magic if you ask me. Also my stupid fault for trying.

    How many are failing and was the screen intact and undamaged when it got wet?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Galaxy S7 owner

      Your sample size is one. I had my iPhone 6S plus dunked in a sink for several minutes without realizing it (girlfriend's niece knocked it in while she was "doing the dishes") and it got rained on a bit a few times, and it survived just fine (even though it wasn't even IP rated) Just because I had no issues doesn't mean everyone else should have felt safe getting theirs wet. If my experience was mirrored with everyone the 6S plus would have had an IP rating, since it didn't obviously not everyone had the same luck.

      A truly waterPROOF phone would be rated under ISO 22810:2010 like watches, Apple rates the Apple Watch under that standard to 50 meters fresh or salt. I'm sure someone would be claiming the same for a phone if they were building phones that were truly waterproof. Not sure it would matter other than people wanting to bring their phone into the ocean for Instagram selfies but then at least Samsung could use that ad copy in Australia without getting in trouble.

      As for dropping out of your back pocket into a toilet. Ewww! I don't think I'd be able to use the phone again, no matter how well cleaned. I'd consider that a justification for immediate replacement!

      1. LeahroyNake

        Re: Galaxy S7 owner

        You would really throw out a perfectly usable phone just because it fell into a toilet.

        Apparently most toilets are cleaner than kitchen worktops and all kebab shops.

    2. Vulch

      Re: Galaxy S7 owner

      I got myself an S7 Active for Ingressing in the rain after my S6 objected to a few damp 8-rolls. Has a tendency to zoom right in as raindrops hit and run down the screen but lets you finish the banner. Also has a 50% bigger battery giving you longer to find a suitable tree or shop awning to shelter undder while you try and persuade it the USB port is dry enough to use. Downside, only officially sold via AT&T in the states so grey import and the additional crap is less useable than usual.

  8. Howard Hanek

    I Gotta

    ....get me one o' dem samsunk phones.

    Think about this. A battery powered waterproof phone with a replaceable battery?

  9. Claverhouse Silver badge

    Sims claimed Samsung was aware that water resistance was a differentiating factor in the phone purchasing decision of Aussies.

    Prolly not so much in the rest of the world...

    1. Alister

      Maybe in Wales... Not so much the sun, sea and surf, just the unrelenting downpour...

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Expensive Yachting Watch - Big name brand

    Made for use on the high seas and during a storm (if the advert is to be believed)

    As a confirmed land lubber:

    Never used in salt water, never used in fresh water.

    Five years later, borked after frequently washing ones hands under a tap. No storms involved.

  11. eldakka

    Oz watchdog claims Samsung's leak-proof phones ad campaign doesn't hold water

    I think the problem is that it does hold water, when it isn't supposed to.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward


    Mines been in a sink full of hot water and washing up liquid (by mistake) and dropped in a bath.

    Both times, it's been fine - apart from the "Moisture detected in charging port" warning but it can wireless charge so that's fine.

    Can't see how they can refute an IP rating as they are pretty standard set of testing. I wouldn't go in the sea with it though - the salt wouldn't do any device any good.

    For me - it's the piece of mind that if it's tipping down with rain or accidentally gets wet - it'll be fine.

  13. spold Silver badge

    Requirements specification

    1. It needs to survive being dropped in the pub toilet (helpful if it comes with a couple of readily replaceable phone cases, a pair of tongs, some disinfectant wipes + a clothes peg for the nose - this accessory kit is likely already available on aliexpress.).

    2. It needs to be waterproof to a depth of approximately 6in (this should also cover case 1, but assuming the phone is at my ear, and the depth of water above it is greater than 6in then I have other problems such as drowning that are likely more pressing.). I'm ignoring possible minor usage problems at lesser depths (cue well known Michael Jackson song - I'm forever blowing Bubbles).

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Galaxy Watch small print

    Have a look at this :

    Now read the list of small print at the bottom.

    Despite claiming IP68 (which has disappeared today. I checked 2 days ago and it was there, I'm sure) and 5 ATM, the small print at the bottom says this:

    "Galaxy Watch has a water resistance rating of 50 meters under the ISO standard 22810:2010. It is not suitable for diving or high-pressure water activities. If the device or your hands are wet, they must be dried thoroughly prior to handling."

    So... its IP68 and 5 ATM as long as you don't get it wet and don't take it to 5 ATM?

    So it's a smart watch as long as you don't expect it to be "smart" perhaps?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Galaxy Watch small print

      Apple Watch Series 4 -

      Apple Watch Series 4 has a water resistance rating of 50 metres under ISO standard 22810:2010. This means that it may be used for shallow-water activities like swimming in a pool or ocean. However, Apple Watch Series 4 should not be used for scuba diving, waterskiing or other activities involving high-velocity water or submersion below shallow depth.

      So think all the smartwatches are the same.

    2. ThatOne Silver badge

      Re: Galaxy Watch small print

      As somebody said below, just check the ratings on real diver's watches. Stated depths are totally misleading: Water resistance to 50 m means that it can withstand water spray, as long as you wipe it dry as quickly as possible. 100 m means you can swim with it on the surface, and 200 m means you can actually go snorkeling with it (but not deep diving). Yes, you might get away with snorkeling with your brand new 50 m rated watch for a short time, but it literally won't last.

      Also, "water resistant" means just that: Pure water. The problem is that sweat, soap and other chemicals eventually eat through the seals, which means that an improperly handled waterproof watch will stop being waterproof over time. Divers (despite cleaning and rinsing their equipment after each dive) change all the seals on their expensive watches every now and then.

      Those ratings are indeed misleading, but not new.

  15. Big_Boomer Silver badge

    Clumsy Clutzes!

    I have had smartphones since they were invented. In all that time I have never dropped one in the bath, toilet or sink, or even in a pool or puddle. Why do you have your phone in your hand when using the bath/toilet/sink? No, wait, I don't want to know about your nasty habits!

    I've only dropped my phone twice and both times it suffered no damage due to being in a case. So the question I have to ask is why are so many of you so ****ing clumsy? I really don't care about your phone, but I assume you drive cars and the idea of someone so incapable of taking care of a 6"x3" piece of electronics driving a 2 ton car fills me with dread. Actually, it does explain why there are so many sh!t drivers on our roads.

    On the subject of Sammy lying about their phones water "resistance", now you are starting to understand why watches are routinely rated to a depth of 200metre STATIC PRESSURE use just so that it can handle the pressures they get subjected to by your average snorkeler (maybe 10m in the real world). Good luck getting a smartphone to that level of water resistance without an armoured case.

    1. hammarbtyp

      Re: Clumsy Clutzes!

      Nor have I, but it has been through the washing machine, after it got left in a trouser pocket and left outside in a rain shower. Shit happens, and I think at minimum a phone should survive such occurrences, its not like they are designed to be kept in climate controlled conditions

    2. DasWezel

      Re: Clumsy Clutzes!

      Steering wheels and pedals are designed to be tactile and reasonably grippy.

      Smartphones seem to be almost exclusively designed to be fashionable and shiny. Half the current crop is comparable with trying to hold a slightly moist bar of soap.

      I'm in agreement with driving standards, but I'm not totally convinced it's comparable here.

  16. JaitcH

    Samsung: Practicing Corporate Extortion

    The power switch on my Samsung Note decided to quit the other day, so I took it to one of the Samsung Cell Service Centres in SaiGon (there are 9). Tech guy grabs the phone and says 'The screen is damaged', examining the screen protector. I said 'I don't care about the screen' as it is used solely as a MESH >< WiFi interface and doesn't even have a SIM in it.

    He then stated 'Samsung has a policy that if the screen is damaged, they will not do any other repair'. I checked with a former Samsung cell technician, who now has his own repair business, and he said that Samsung established a minimum repair charge to make Service Centres profitable.

    The 'damage' was revealed by a snowflake-like pattern. So we carefully burned a screen protector with one of our lasers, which had a very rude message to Samsung made from similar snowflake patterns.

    We took the Note back in and again they spoke about this 'policy'. When challenged which 'snowflake' indicted screen damage the tech couldn't tell. He did admit the formation with the rude message was unlikely caused by screen damage.

    After learning the whole transaction was recorded on my body camera, his manager instructed the Power Switch be repaired - only.

    So when dealing with Samsung, their morals are as much in the gutter as any of their competitors.

  17. Jabberwocky

    S8 motorbike SatNav

    I use my S8 on my motorbike as a SatNav/Music source/Mobile phone coupled to a Bluetooth headset fitted to my helmet.

    I purchased a machined aluminium bracket for it, which I bolted behind the windscreen of my faring, so it's sheilded from the worst of the driven rain, but it can still get soaked in a downpour.

    So far so good on the waterproof front, and it does a great job of all three functions.

  18. Ian Joyner Bronze badge

    Samsung doesn't have what Apple doesn't have

    Typical Samsung. Apple honestly says their phones are not water proof. Samsung claims they are when they aren't. Marketing BS.

  19. 89724102172714182892114I7551670349743096734346773478647892349863592355648544996312855148587659264921

    That's one way to eradicate gamers, when air tight phones explode as the CPU and battery heat up

  20. Peconet57

    Phoning underwater.

    Who in their right mind would phone/play with their phone underwater anyway? Ever seen anyone in the 60's talking on their landlines underwater? Shaking my head with wonder.

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