'Lightweight' UPS-style flywheels to power naval laser zappers

The Royal Navy and the US Navy have been testing a system of "lightweight" energy storage flywheels as part of a larger project to bolt laser cannon onto warships. The Flywheel Energy Storage System (FESS), we are told by the UK's Defence Science Technology Laboratory (DSTL), "uses innovative high-speed and lightweight …

[Anonymous South African Coward]

The Philadelphia Experiment coming soon to you.

[TRT]

I experimented putting some underneath the hot beans going into the crevice of a jacket spud. The whole thing disappeared in a couple of minutes.

[Mips]

Hang on a minute....

... 3.2MJ storage. Now let me see, that would be about half a cup of diesel.

Wow really! So big. Wouldn’t even get your electric car out of the garage.

[DCFusor]

Re: Hang on a minute....

~ 888 wH. Which will take my Volt around 4 miles.

Released in the time-span of a laser pulse...pretty serious stuff.

I invite you to discharge a 100 j hv capacitor with a screwdriver - which is slow and lower peak by comparison, and let us know how much screwdriver disappeared.

[HPCJohn]

F1 KERS flywheels

Williams F1 developed a flywheel for KERS energy storage. This is tightly wound carbon fibre filaments. It is lightweight and spins extremely fast.

There is a danger when flywheels fail, I gather the carbon fibre one is safer than most as it explodes into carbon fibre particles (which probably should not be breated in).

That flywheel was said to be being commericalised - I wonder of the Navy are using that technology?

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/williams-f1-kers-explained/

[Julz]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

The power storage solution that Williams investigated was from a spin-off company from URENCO. They had some difficulty with it adversely affecting the handling of the car. Bit like the old WWI planes, it would turn one way better than the other. The FIA were also unhappy about its fail mode. The technology is derived from that used to enrich uranium via centrifuges, hence URENCO. I guess with the right configuration you could use them to help stabilise the ship.

[Alister]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

a spin-off company

Oops, lol :)

[Dave 126]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/williams-f1-kers-explained/

[Wellyboot]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Stabilise the ship - in theory yes, and it'll make a better gun platform, but for a force 12+ with ocean swell you'd need really big bearings and an incredibly strong hull design.

A 3-axis gimbal design with all the multi-MW power extraction issues is probably a much easier engineering problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

for a force 12+ with ocean swell you'd need really big bearings balls

But that might just be me...I'm not a natural sailor

[TRT]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Ahhhhhhhhh! You have a woman's balls! I'll wager those spherical beauties have never been scavenged by a mad pirate captain and loaded into the muzzle of a 17 pounder when he's coming alongside a French frigate.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Indeed you are correct. Would you care for a flaggon of this rather exotic wine? I'm afraid it's not chilled

[Paul Crawford]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Ahhhhh! You have a woman’s wine! I'll wager that was never on tap when Roger the cabin boy was in need of some refreshment after a hard day of hunting the golden rivet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

"Stabilize the ship - in theory yes, and it'll make a better gun platform, but for a force 12+ with ocean swell you'd need really big bearings and an incredibly strong hull design."

All this talk of flywheels on ships brings up vague memories of a story of someones navy (US?) trying to put an early computer on a ship. Real early computer that used drum memory, with really big drums. And they didn't think to bolt it down really really good.

It did not go well.

I hope the present testing includes looking at that sort of problem. Like they said, you need strong bearings and a strong attachment to the ship. Or gimbals if you can get the power lines out through them.

[David Beck]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

That would be Univac and Fastran drums. The Fastrans weighed about 5000 pounds and were about 8 ft long. I believe the problem was the bearings in the drums failing with the subsequent havoc, assuming this is all true and not just urban (naval?) legend. The Fastrans were real but were they ever deployed on a ship?

[the future is back!]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels ?????

Hmmmm, that’s all about gyroscopes. Energy storage pads are a whole different game. Yes, in a rough sea, the 300 lb. pods would “hop” around a bit unless well lashed.

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels ?????

pods would “hop” around a bit unless well lashed

Much like sailors then :-)

[Bob H]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels ?????

A 300lb sailor has plenty of impact resistant cushioning...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Flywheel powered trams have been around for a lot longer than KERS in F1. Have a google for "Parry People Movers". Not that they've sold very many of them, mind you.

As for exploding carbon fibre flywheels... it doesn't matter what your flywheel is made from, if you don't put it inside a containment that can withstand the disintegration of the flywheel, then don't put people anywhere near it.

[BigSLitleP]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Not being mean, but there's a reason Parry People Movers didn't sell many. Gearbox issues, flywheel engagement issues, crap suspension........

But yes, the IDEA has been around a lot longer even if they couldn't get it to work properly!

[Stoneshop]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

But yes, the IDEA has been around a lot longer even if they couldn't get it to work properly!

The Swiss Gyrobus

[phuzz]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

"don't put people anywhere near it"

At least warships have had hundreds of years of design put into separating the crew from dangerous things (ie the magazine), so it should be a solved problem in naval engineering.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

Actually, to be useful in combat warship keep on getting crew close to a lot of dangerous things. Sure, there are other things installed tryng to keep risks under control - but weight, operational requirements, etc. don't let to solve this kind of problems fully. And this kind of technology, being quite new, will pose new challenges to keep risks under control.

[Alistair]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

This is why the load transfer and ignition components of our 24MW desiel gensets are behind locked solid steel doors that have some interesting warning stickers on them. The rotation speed is fairly low in reality (only about 800 or 900 rpm) but the bastards weigh 11 tons each.

[Anonymous Coward]

A flywheel on a ship is FAR safer

Because they can surround it with as much steel as needed. You don't really have that option in an F1 car where weight is so critical.

[Danny 14]

Re: A flywheel on a ship is FAR safer

stuff man portable. what about shark portable?

[Black Betty]

Re: F1 KERS flywheels

An article I read a few years back suggested that when carbon fibre flywheels failed they turned into a fluffy snarl, rather than exploding into flying shards of shrapnel.

[Anonymous Coward]

My questions are...

1) How do this fast spinning wheel behave on a moving ship? After all, they will be huge gyroscopes, and may need to move. increasing the required size.

2) What happen when they are damaged in combat, and energy needs to be dissipated somehow before being dissipated on the ship itself?

[DJO]

Re: My questions are...

The gyroscope problem can be largely fixed by having multiple flywheels in different orientations and spin directions so the rotational torque when manoeuvring cancels out.

At least it should in theory, should be interesting to test in reality.

As for point 2, there are bigger worries than a bit of spinning stuff when your ship is hit but I suppose they could be held down in the bilge and jettisoned if the ship is in moral peril.

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: My questions are...

if the ship is in moral peril.

...I've heard that sailors can be quite immoral...

[DJO]

Re: My questions are...

No Tea this morning? Should be mortal but you knew that.

[Wellyboot]

Re: My questions are...

yes we did, but this is the Reg.

Sailor know a lot about getting mortal too.

8o)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: My questions are...

The main thing I learnt from my years wearing Naval uniform was not to drink the tea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: My questions are...

I've heard that sailors can be quite immoral...

Well so would you be if you had to travel around the globe in something long, hard and full of seamen.

<coughs> Sorry, must be going now...

[TimMaher]

Re: My questions are...

Was that Seaman Staines?

I'll help you get your coat.

[Swarthy]

Re: My questions are...

As I've always heard: "Sailors should be obscene - not absurd."

[Korev]

Re: My questions are...

So Roger the Cabin Boy told me....

[DiViDeD]

Re: My questions are...

So "Roger the cabin boy" is a person?

I thought it was just part of standing orders.

I'll get me own coat, thanks

[CrazyOldCatMan]

Re: My questions are...

...I've heard that sailors can be quite immoral...

So you've been on Union St in Plymouth on a friday night then? With the added bonus of sailors, marines and a few tanked-up[1] army types too..

(T'missus comes from Plymouth. Was warned (at school) to never go to that area..)

[1] And not in the Challenger II sense either. Although that would have saved them from a few beatings & D&D charges.

[Bob H]

Re: My questions are...

"...I've heard that sailors can be quite immoral.."

You've heard of my brother then?

[m0rt]

Re: My questions are...

"The gyroscope problem can be largely fixed by having multiple flywheels in different orientations and spin directions so the rotational torque when manoeuvring cancels out"

What could possibly go wrong?

[Giovani Tapini]

Re: My questions are...

In an interesting opposition, this is the situation when the sh1t LEAVES the fan...

[Fruit and Nutcase]

Re: My questions are...

Left hand down a bit

[Anonymous Coward]

"there are bigger worries than a bit of spinning stuff when your ship is hit"

You mean when your ship is hit there are bigger worries than the energy stored aboard (explosives, rockets and ship/aircrafts fuel, high-energy spinning wheels...) isn't released suddenly and increases the damages? I would not care much about the gyrocompasses, maybe...

I understand that keeping it afloat and moving may have some higher priority - but it's difficult to keep it afloat when things inside start to ignite and/or blow up.

[Ian K]

Re: My questions are...

"but I suppose they could be held down in the bilge and jettisoned if the ship is in moral peril."

Providing a valuable engineering foundation for future interstellar vessels, where "warp core breach imminent!" and "eject the warp core!" will be regular occurences.

[Jellied Eel]

Re: My orders are "Gunner, Load Frisbee!"

Providing a valuable engineering foundation for future interstellar vessels, where "warp core breach imminent!" and "eject the warp core!" will be regular occurences.

Soo... we have a couple of carriers with plenty of space and not a lot of aircraft. We have an energy storage mechanism that would release some energy into DEW, with losses being unavoidable..

So why not cut out the middle gubbins, add some rails to the carrier decks and just launch the flywheels at the enemy? Would be a defence-budget form of frisbees/skimming stones, and positively lethal if you could bounce flywheels off multiple ships in an enemy fleet!

(Oh, and gyroscopic effects. Oddly, in Space Engineers last night, I was experiencing this when the drill rotors on my mining ship started spinning the ship. So contra-rotating mass added, made a lil more challenging due to mass of blocks & forces not being obvious. Not sure if this experience means I'd want to be anywhere near anything real & spinning at 50k RPM though..)

[macjules]

Re: My orders are "Gunner, Load Frisbee!"

This would be where our new ‘Seabass’ class of warship comes into service. They were going to be ‘Shark’ but we ran of money.

This joke is getting old.

[OssianScotland]

Re: My orders are "Gunner, Load Frisbee!"

Already been done, albeit by the RAF

Thank you, yes, the one with the Dambusters DVD in the pocket, please

[the Jim bloke]

Re: My orders are "Gunner, Load Frisbee!"

Dambusters, a movie that would never meet modern standards for release.

Not because of the military attempt to destroy critical industrial infrastructure with no regard for the associated civilian casualties - modern film producers actually LOVE that kind of thing..

but because the emotional pathos in the movie is created, not by said mass civilian casualties, but by the death of the black Labrador... called Nigger.

btw, Spoiler Alert

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: My questions are...

(different AC here)

I would think that the rotational torque should only be an issue when spinning up or down. Gyroscopic precession could come into play with maneuverability. I'm not sure that changing orientations or spin directions will help.

It's been years since I took physics, though.

[Danny 14]

Re: My questions are...

surely the whole point of these is to spin up and down in combat though. mutliple units spinning up and down at different rates might make a noticeable effect. 3.2Mj of rotational energy being utilised in a shot is nothing to sniff at.

[Persona]

Re: My questions are...

A pair of identical counter rotating flywheels will not exhibit precession. Although the article does not mention it I would expect each pod to contain a pair of counter rotating wheels otherwise it would be a very bad thing to have in a ship pitching and rolling in a heavy sea.

[Aitor 1]

Re: My questions are...

This would still be a gyroscope.. these things should be put in gimbals...

[Alister]

I'm curious why the emphasis on 'lightweight'?

Obviously for something ship-borne you don't want it too heavy, but on the other hand, I thought that having a heavy flywheel was the method of choice, as a heavier one performs better (has more inertia??) than a light one?

[John Robson]

For a given geometry and rotational speed then yes it does.

But if you can get the same energy in a smaller package by rotating a lighter material faster then you do so - of course that material also needs high tensile strength...

[Dave 126]

You can spin a lighter flywheel faster to store the same energy as a heavier and slower flywheel. If your flywheel was too heavy it would add too much to the mass of the ship, making it slower to accelerate.

Obviously faster flywheels present more engineering challenges. The Williams KERS system used a vacuum to allow the flywheel to spin at over 50,000 rpm.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious why the emphasis on 'lightweight'?

Apart from the obvious effect on the ship's overall weight or displacement, I'm guessing it's about kinetic energy.

A heavy flywheel spinning slowly has the same angular momentum as a light flywheel spinning fast, but the lighter flywheel will have greater kinetic energy, as the kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the angular velocity. It's high kinetic energy that's desirable here, as that's the energy available to be recovered when you slow the flywheel down before firing your laser.

[Alan Brown]

"I'm guessing it's about kinetic energy."

I'm guessing it's about torquing effects on ship manouverability.

On the one hand this could be exploited to enable a ship to turn much faster. On the other hand you really don't want several tons/MJ of kinetic energy breaking loose, pinballing a little and exiting via a conveniently self-made $LARGE hole in the side. This would give everyone involved onboard a very bad day.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, if that doesn't work..

.. will they fess up? :)

Yes, yes, I'm going, just let me get my coat..

[Detective Emil]

In a galaxy far, far away

Now we know why the Hoth rebel base shield generators are the shape they are.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: In a galaxy far, far away

No, that was for the wheels run by giant hamsters from Endor... not shown in the movie because they live on the other side of the moon.

[WibbleMe]

Wast Volvo researching them a few years back

[Anonymous Coward]

Fight or flight

Although warship electrical generation capacity (drawn from diesel-electric gensets) is typically measured in megawatts, most of that electrical energy ends up being fed to the propellers in order to move several thousand tons of steel through rough seas at speeds of 30kts+.

In NATO practice, most frigates and destroyers (medium-sized fighting ships that launch missiles at each other, to oversimplify it) have two sets of generators aboard: the base level diesel-electric sets and gas turbines to enable high-speed sprints. It thus makes sense to be able to store that peak generation capacity for use in the laser zapper at the appropriate moment.

So literally a choice between fight or flight :-)

[Icon: don't often get the chance to use the seafarers' icon]

[Rudolph Hucker the Third]

Testing in Scotland? Excellent!

Scotty, I must have more laser power!

It's the flywheels, Captain, they canna stand it!

If this catches on, there will be a lot less demand for olde-fashioned sailor-powered gunnery and exploding shells.

There'll be a lot of seamen discharged in Faslane and Rosyth.

[ma1010]

Defense?

I suspect lasers are mainly for defense against incoming aircraft and missiles. Therefore, I doubt that lasers, even if they get them working well, will be a substitute for whatever offensive weapons a ship might use, mainly missiles these days, although many do still mount a gun or two.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Defense?

"I suspect lasers are mainly for defense against incoming aircraft and missiles. "

They've been shown to be pretty effective against seaborne targets too (think RHIBs) and in a pinch I think the "no blinding" rule might just be forgotten in the heat of battle when trying to take out an oncoming vessel (ie: raking the bridge instead of the waterline - and perhaps aiming for the other guy's radar antennas, etc if they can be seen)

The issue about lasers at the moment is they're a weapon looking for a purpose and for the most part they've proven extremely hard to weaponise thanks to atmospheric blooming. I suspect that they'll prove to be mostly be defeatable in the real world using ablative surfaces and/or water sprays.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Defense?

That'll be the 'technological solution' to the English border problem post IndyRef2 then?

[Inventor of the Marmite Laser]

All this talk about flywheels

People are getting really wound up

[Korev]

Re: All this talk about flywheels

I always thought flies had wings

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: All this talk about flywheels

What is the rotational velocity of an unladen flywheel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: All this talk about flywheels

African or European? (I know someone had to write it.)

[Wim Prest]

The crossover options are obvious

You must get one of these through budgeting *once*!!!

Bargaining with finance for your next network upgrade becomes much easier since you can do it with your multi-megawatt laser over your shoulder.

[SVV]

Dragonfire Laser Blaster

This is a childish name, thought up by someone who obviously watches far too much television and sci-fi films. As this is serious technology developed for the Royal Navy, I would suggest something far more elegant, such as Photon Torpedos, or the Megablast Deathzap 5000.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dragonfire Laser Blaster

more likely Jade Tricycle or Yellow Snow until QinetiQ rebrand with more bling for sale to dictators.

[niio]

3.2mj is 888wh in 180kg, or about 5wh per kg. Supercapacitors are capable of this energy density, are smaller and have no moving parts so they should be more reliable and safe. They are already tested and commercially available. Does someone have a kinetic fetish?

[Swarthy]

Probably.

[Robert Sneddon]

Charge and discharge rates

Energy storage systems for laser weapons need to be able to provide a lot of energy in a short (so to speak) period of time, a second or two. Supercapacitors have a high internal impedance and can't discharge their stored energy quickly compared to a flywheel motor/generator set designed for the purpose.

Homopolar flywheel generators were used in the past to provide high-current short pulses of energy by spinning up a disc-shaped rotor over a period of a few seconds or minutes and then "braking" it with a magnetic field with the KE stored in the rotating disc being converted into electrical energy in the windings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator

These new flywheel storage systems seem to be a development of that concept, aided by modern materials like carbon fibre.

[Pete 2]

I suspect someone has dropped a decimal place.

The flywheel energy calculator here suggests that a 40kg ring flywheel with a diameter of 500mm at 50,000 RPM would store 34MJ of energy. That's about the same as a litre of petrol.

[dfsmith]

Yes. 3.2MJ sounds impressive until you figure out it's about a quarter's-worth of electricity (25 cents, just under 1kW-hour).

[niio]

You must be figuring California electricity. A KWh in many states is less than a dime.

[Adrian 4]

Sure, but it delivers fast. The only way to get petrol to do that is with an explosion (and they have better ways to make those).

[Sgt_Oddball]

Would these mean...

The system could in theory be used on smaller water craft?

Say even small enough to mount on very large fish of predatory nature?

Just so long as it doesn't lead to sharknados firing lazer beams. That's the stuff of nightmares.

[A-nonCoward]

a giroscope!

Wow, let's make the flywheel bigger, and use it to make a ship where you can play pool!

I guess their flywheel is in a multi-axis floating gantry, or else it won't be too happy, rough seas, you know

icon because laws of physics alert.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can the prototype please be called the Marty McFlywheel?

As tested in Scotland by a professor who has a set of fast and sleek looking wheels.

[John Brown (no body)]

Scotland has already had it's fair share of Libyan terrorists.

[toffer99]

Road Runner version.

Just visualising this: it has ACME stamped on the side and Wile E. Coyote is running it up to full speed. As it hits 40,000 rpm it breaks free, dragging Wile E. the length of the ship, through all bulkheads into the waves beyond at high speed. RR peers out of a hammock, then looks sadly at the camera saying "meep meep". Chuck Jones, you should be living now.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

My eye!

Let's roll this story back to the part where we invented electrical lasers that are limited by the availability of power. I'm curious about that and I'd like to buy some to play with.

[Alan Brown]

Flywheels

have Interia, resist being moved out of their axis of rotation. Bad things happen (to bearings) if you try, and to the surroundings if the bearings fail(*)

These are the kind of energies stored in Activepower's larger UPS flywheels @ around 9000rpm. I think putting them in a ship (roll pitch and yaw) might affect their warranty somewhat - http://www.activepower.com/en-US/5068/cleansource-reg-nbsp-reg-675-hd-a-ups-675-kw-4-725-mw-nbsp

(*) I've seen the aftermath of a centrifuge that had a "problem" - it walked across the lab floor and through a wall. There's a story of a much larger flywheel - a ~5 ton rotor assembly in a hydroelectric facility spining at a leisurely 1200rpm - in germany levering itself out of its housing after the bearings failed and being found a couple of miles downstream of the dam - if it had gone the other way it could have been much worse.

This is definitely a case where supercapacitors or suchlike are a better idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Flywheels

This chart suggests that supercapacitors don't achieve the same maximum power per kg of electrolytics. Unfortunately I cannot find figures for flywheels, which suggests that they may be (a) secret and (b) quite a lot higher.

Having experimented (for perfectly legitimate reasons, constable) with rapid discharge of electrolytic and ceramic capacitors, I suspect supercapacitors are nowhere near up the the necessary output. But given the stuff they keep in military ships, I doubt that flywheels worry them that much.

[juliusbarry]

Fingers crossed to see final outcome.