Fed up with 72-hour, six-day working weeks, IT workers emit cries for help via GitHub repo

A protest by tech employees in China over the expectation of 72-hour work weeks has this week attracted the support of 30 workers from Microsoft and its GitHub subsidiary. In late March, Katt Gu, an attorney and informatics doctoral student at University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, in the US, with the assistance of Suji Yan …

[A Non e-mouse]

Alibaba Group founder [...] said, "I personally think that being able to work 996 is a huge blessing"

A huge blessing to the bosses. Not so for the people doing the work.

I've pulled 12 hour days on seven day shifts: I didn't consider it a blessing at the time.

[deive]

It isn't really a blessing to the bosses either, they just don't realise it. From the Guardian: "Four-day week: trial finds lower stress and increased productivity" - https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/feb/19/four-day-week-trial-study-finds-lower-stress-but-no-cut-in-output

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but that is the Grauniad. They'd have us believe that we'd all be happier living in a socialist workers' paradise where no-one gets paid, and we all work for the good of the commune.

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you accept the results of numerous psychological studies that show that once you get beyond a 44 hour working week, productivity starts to fall as the first 44 hours get slower and slower?

I don't buy the Guardian any more because these days it's very much addressed to Londoners on over £150k, and politically is about where the Major government was, but in any case your attempt to shoot the messenger is silly. I wonder what your staff think of you as a boss?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you accept the results of numerous psychological studies that show that once you get beyond a 44 hour working week, productivity starts to fall as the first 44 hours get slower and slower?

No, it hasn't been my experience (as a worker). Once you go past 48-50 hours I can see a slowdown, especially if the work is uninteresting but demanding.

I don't buy the Guardian any more because these days it's very much addressed to Londoners on over £150k, and politically is about where the Major government was

Really? Sure you're not confusing it with the Telegraph? The Guardian isn't as Corbyn-sympathetic as the Indy is these days, but it's much closer to Blair than Major.

I wonder what your staff think of you as a boss?

Haven't had direct staff in 30 years, I quit that job when I was forced to be a pure manager. As a technical lead my team seem to like me, at least that's the feedback I get from them via my boss.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you weren't aware, the far left now despise the Graun for not being Corbyn sycophants. Therefore the Graun is far right. Or something.

[vtcodger]

My experience, and I had perhaps entirely too much of it, is that an occasional 60 or even 80 hour week might be fine. But week after week of long working hours resulted in sub-optimal productivity as well as attitude problems. It wasn't good for me, and I wouldn't ask it of others.

The absolute worst ... rotating shifts -- days this week, evenings next, early mornings the next, then back to days. That'll reduce anyone to a gibbering wreck in a month or two.

[Alister]

The absolute worst ... rotating shifts -- days this week, evenings next, early mornings the next, then back to days. That'll reduce anyone to a gibbering wreck in a month or two.

Sounds a bit wimpish...

How on earth do you think emergency services personnel manage then, who do that constantly for years?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, them being overpaid helps.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're an absolute ass. In fact, calling you an ass is an insult to asses everywhere. People who risk their physical well-being to help others in need deserve everything they're paid. And then some. I can only hope that one day you're in need and one of these brave souls saves your useless carcass. Maybe then you'll see the light. But, I doubt it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Well, them being overpaid helps.

Come and volunteer, you twat. I take is as a given that you have the requisite fitness, strength of mind, qualifications, skills, willpower and dedication.

What a waste of perfectly good organic compounds.

[ecofeco]

Except they are very, very underpaid.

[Anonymous Coward]

> How on earth do you think emergency services personnel manage then

Very badly. That's how we manage(d).

[Alister]

I don't recall being a gibbering wreck at any point, and I did rotating days, nights and afters for twenty years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of *course* you don't. You've been in your happy place for years...

[vtcodger]

"How on earth do you think emergency services personnel manage then who do that constantly for years?"

How to I think they do? Badly. There's a vast literature on the negative affects of shift work. Bottom Line. Shift work isn't good for (most) people, and rotating shifts are worse than fixed shifts.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sounds a bit wimpish...

How on earth do you think emergency services personnel manage then, who do that constantly for years?"

Their relationships suffer. They die young/early. A quick Google search will prove it to you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Shift work

I was almost tempted to apply for a job as a tram driver recently, for a complete change (and the pay being almost as much as I currently earn, but without the technically near-impossible expectations), but was put off by the thought of the constantly changing shifts.

If I was doing shift work, I think I'd much prefer, say, 3 weeks of earlies, 3 weeks of mids, 3 weeks of lates, than changing every couple of days and completely playing havoc with your sleep patterns.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if you found that some people would be perfectly happy to do permanent earlies and mids, and some would be equally happy doing permanent mids and lates as this would be far less disturbing to your own individual natural clock cycle...?

[Dagg]

How on earth do you think emergency services personnel manage then, who do that constantly for years?

They bloody burn out! Just like my wife did. Little things like late shifts followed by early shifts because the pointy haired ones stuff up staffing levels and they end up with problems when staff stress and take sick/stress leave.

[hmv]

Yeah right. The Guardian = The Morning Star. And I'm a strawberry in disguise.

Get real.

And btw that isn't the Guardian; it's a study reported in the Guardian.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are so many reasons we need to significantly limit our trade with countries like China and this is just another.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a huge blessing for people who live in countries where you can get cash on a sick leave for a burnout and get that cash for months. Even better if you pretended to work but actually was doing absolutely nothing related to work. Records will still show that you worked 996, so you must truly be in a burnout right?

[David Neil]

Impressive

50 Yuan will deposited in your account at the end of your shift

[Bronek Kozicki]

You keep using that word "burnout", but I don't think you know what it means.

[redpawn]

Ahead of their time

I'm sure if 996 works in China the free market can make it work here too. Work is dignity. More work, more dignity, and you still get to go to church all day Sunday and prove we are not communists. Winners all around.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Ahead of their time

I'm sure if 996 works in China the free market can make it work here too.

Been there, done that. It was called the "Industrial Revolution". Worked at the time, but isn't really sustainable.

[Michael Hoffmann]

Microsoft, beware!

There is still a ton of apprehension regarding Microsoft's purchase of Github.

If they started to crack down on repos based on pressure from China, whatever goodwill they may be slowly, ever so slowly building up would evaporate, never to return.

Github would turn into latter-day Sourceforge overnight, complete with crickets, tumbleweed and spam-laced repos.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Microsoft, beware!

Precisely what I hope does happen should Microsoft fail to think of the consequences. Then again, they'd still have the enterprise repos/customers, well maybe, and this is Microsoft we are talking about!

[Potemkine!]

Under capitalism, man exploits man. In Communist China, it's the opposite.

[ecofeco]

Classic. Not enough upvotes.

[Blockchain commentard]

I'd be happy to work 996 (maybe for a full week) if I then became a billionaire. Then I'd retire. Pronto.

[A.P. Veening]

If that billion is in a useful currency, I might even do it for a month. As for less useful currencies, I've been an instant multimillionaire, didn't help much. For those curious about the situation: Coming from Suvarnabhumi I landed at Noi Bai and exchanged some leftover Thai Baht (THB 8,000 to be exact) and received multiple millions and change in Vietnamese Dong (VND 4,010,000). The real value at that time was about EUR 150.

[Tim Almond]

Who is Complaining?

I see lawyers and some geeks at Microsoft, but do the people at Alibaba like doing these hours?

When I was a young programmer, I regularly did 6 day weeks. The company wanted me doing extra hours and I didn't have wife and kids. My non-work time was going out places and clubbing.

If they're getting paid for it, maybe they're happy doing it.

[doublelayer]

Re: Who is Complaining?

If you read the article, it's kind of a lot of people in China who are being forced into this and a bunch of other people who did argue about this and are having their comments blocked or erased. They're getting a bit of support from some engineers at github, but not very much. The information was all there.

I am happy to work longer shifts than is the norm, and perhaps six-day weeks. I won't mind doing it, as long as:

1. It lasts for a short amount of time before things go back to normal (two weeks would be acceptable, a month under exceptional conditions, see point 4)

2. There is some direct benefit to me, I.E. being paid extra, additional vacation time, or receiving some other benefit, not the chance that this will be looked well upon and someone will demonstrate their gratitude later

3. There is some planning so I know when this is going to happen. Not that it has to be scheduled a year in advance, but don't come to me on Monday and just announce it

4. There is a real purpose. If something needs fixing or building quickly, that's fine. If two projects need to proceed and I really have to work on both of them, that's fine. If I'm doing my normal job but they want me to work extra hours for no good reason, that's not fine.

[Anonymous Coward]

Working 72 hour weeks when 32 of those hours are time-and-a-half is one thing. But even that can’t be sustained indefinitely. And managers who have to sign off on overtime pay tend to use it responsibly.

Not sure why anyone bothered to ask Jack Ma his opinion. Of course he loves that his employees do loads of unpaid overtime, why wouldn’t he?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with Ma

Being able to work 72 hours a week is an absolute blessing.

Being *forced* to do so, on the other hand...

[phuzz]

Re: I'm with Ma

"Being able to work 72 hours a week is an absolute blessing."

Not really, it makes my lazy-arse approach to life look really bad :(

Work to live, or live to work, I know which I chose.

[Compuserve User]

I feel like I am 13

I work from home and projects always carry themselves over the 72 hour mark. My work ethic is like when I was 13. I can go out to play once my homework was done. Roll on 37 years and it is exactly the same ethic. I do not see what the big deal is, unless the said Chinese workers are commuting on those 8 hour train journeys we see on TV. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-01/24/content_514899.htm

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel like I am 13

As my Mother put it: "When he is working on something, the whole universe could destroy itself and he might notice.... In about a week." So yeah, I resemble that remark. However, most of humanity can't. They're social critters, like all primates. Nothing to do with social media. They need real downtime with family, friends, etc. Not just cubical/line co-workers at work. It's wired in. Real executives/managers/leaders know this. At least the only effective one's I encountered did. Made a point of digging deep in their own pockets to make it happen, too.

Come to think back on it, I did the same as well. I never even had to think about it. Those effective leaders crafted better than they knew. Humph! Train them; make them take care of themselves even if they wouldn't; take care of their family/friends/etc. too.

[ecofeco]

Re: I feel like I am 13

Congratulations. You are a workholic.

It's not something to be proud of.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you love what you are doing, you are never working, but if you are in a giant industrial facility doing a repetitive task with few breaks, low pay (no overtime) and the threat that if you can't handle it there are 300,000,000 former farmers willing to step in is held over your head - you can be Foxconn where they put bars over the windows in the upper floors of their buildings to try and keep people from leaping out to their deaths.

[ecofeco]

No matter HOW much I love something, I simply cannot work 16hrs a day for weeks on end.

That path leads to madness and death. Not even exaggerating.

[Michael Wojcik]

Perhaps you can't do it. Perhaps there are those who can. Not everyone is you.

Frankly, your eagerness to pathologize others' work patterns weakens your arguments.

[bombastic bob]

The worker's paradise

After all wasn't COMMUNISM supposed to FIX all this exploitation crap?

from article: "to call attention to the long work hours expected in the Chinese technology industry."

Sounds more like the conditions that SPAWNED the proletariat revolt, eh comrade?

[Claverhouse]

Re: The worker's paradise

Indeed, Xi Jinping, President of the Republic is an iron-hardened cadre, devoted with every fibre of his being to Marxian philosophy.

Just like the rest of the black besuited gang of interchangeable world politicians in blue ties.

[ecofeco]

Re: The worker's paradise

China is about as Communist as America is fascist.

Oh wait... they're both fascist these days.

[martinusher]

Maybe they'd like to work in the US?

'996' just about sums up my hours during a lot of my working life in California. I'd typically work 8 while 7 for five days a week (with minimal breaks) plus many Saturdays and the occasional Sunday. (I tried not to do too many 7 day weeks because it really kills your productivity.)

Working culture has changed a bit, though. My daughter -- also an engineer -- doesn't attend work quite as much, instead a lot of it comes through her phone. Which can 'ding' pretty much any time, with the expectation that an answer will be forthcoming promptly.

Long hours suck. I did it because I didn't have a choice at that time. I wasn't paid by the hour, either -- overtime was free although technically I'd get time off in lieu (but in practice you wouldn't be taking your (minimal) vacation anyway so extra time off is just a sop.)

So these guys wanted to be like us. They obviously thought it would all be gourmet coffee, Razor scooters and 'bring your dog' stuff. Idiots.

[ecofeco]

Corporate bondage

It's not just China. Looking at you game and CGFX companies.

But naw, who needs a union?