Now Europe wants a four-million-quid AI-powered lie detector at border checkpoints The EU is readying an AI-based screening system designed to catch travelers who lie about their reasons for visiting the Continent. The European Commission has thrown more than €4.5m (£4m, $5.1m) into iBorderCtrl, a self-described "intelligent control system" that analyzes answers given by travelers to a series of questions at …
Nope they are not.
Anger, denial, bargaining, acceptance - the 4 stages of dealing with death and a Hungarian checkpoint. Or in other words - welcome to hell.
By the end of the first hour you are at anger, second - denial, third - bargaining (you are starting to look at ways to jump the queue and bargain your way through) and in the fourth hour you are clearly and definitely at "acceptance". The average wait at Horgos or Subbotica on Friday/Saturday/Sunday in summer is > 4h.
I am willing to do a detour via Romania or even via places where you wish you were driving an armoured personnel carrier (ones UK companies refuse to give you an insurance for) to go around them.
So, no, the punters will not be annoyed. They will be way past that.
@Voland's right hand
places where you wish you were driving an armoured personnel carrier (ones UK companies refuse to give you an insurance for)
...I am sure there are UK companies who will sell you an armoured personnel carrier. You may also be lucky enough to get injured killed by a projectile manufactured in the UK - one must be thankful that it's not some rubbish ammo from from elsewhere.
@Fruit and Nutcase wrote: ..I am sure there are UK companies who will sell you an armoured personnel carrier.
Why bother when Amazon can deliver your tank for you!
Amazon.com: JL421 Badonkadonk Land Cruiser/Tank
From Amazon: "The JL421 Badonkadonk is a completely unique, extremely rare land vehicle and battle tank. Designed with versatility in mind, the Donk can transport cargo or a crew of five internally or on the roof, and can be piloted from within the armored shell or from an exposed standing position through the hatch, thanks to special one-way steel mesh armor windows and a control stick that pivots up and down to allow piloting from the standing or seated positions. The interior is fully carpeted and cozy, with accent lighting and room for up to five people. A 400 watt premium sound system with PA is mounted to project sound both into the cabin and outward from behind the windows. The exterior is a steel shell with a rust patina, and features head and tail lights, turn signal lights, trim lighting, underbody lighting, fixed slats protecting the windows, and a unique industrial-strength rubberized flexible skirt that shields and protects the wheels to within an inch of the ground, while still allowing for enough flex to give clearance over bumpy and uneven terrain. Master power, ignition, all lighting, and stereo features are controlled from a single switchboard to the left of the driver, again accessible from either the seated or standing position. Standard drive is an air-cooled, 6hp Tecumseh gasoline (unleaded only) engine, with centrifugal clutch, giving the Donk a top speed of 40 mph....Price does not include shipping and handling."
As always, you should read the Amazon reviews first before purchasing.
@BillG
"Why bother when Amazon can deliver your tank for you!
Amazon.com: JL421 Badonkadonk Land Cruiser/Tank"
...6hp Tecumseh gasoline (unleaded only) engine, with centrifugal clutch"
If it has a 6hp engine with a centrifugal clutch, it looks as if it is a bit of a toy. A Toyota Land Cruiser would be a much better bet - the vehicle of choice for insurgents the world over
.I am sure there are UK companies who will sell you an armoured personnel carrier.
Last time I heard, UK military goods are not very welcome in Republica Srpska (that is the detour I had in mind). So I would rather stick to a second hand BTR-2.
On a more serious note, the list of countries looks weird. I have not crossed a Baltic state border lately, but the other "testers" have issues which have nothing to do with "lie detector needed" on their border checkpoints. It is the last place I would test something like this.
Especially spread across public sector procurement and teams split across nine countries, public, private and academic institutions. Which means either:
1) It is a budget affair that will work as badly as any other state sponsored AI and facial recognition mess up (like the Metropolitan Police's failed facial recognition efforts)
2) The EU are lying, and the real cost is much, much higher (and it still won't work)
3) These costs are just for a web front end to a pre-existing AI/recognition system being sold by a large tech company like IBM, Amazon or Google (and it STILL won't work).
Having problems here trying to work out exactly what is irking you,
Nothing really, other than the foolish belief that this is going to work.
My national share of the £4m is about 11%, say £400k, and that's a drop in the ocean against the waste of hundreds of billions by the UK government on unneeded projects like HS2 and Heathrow R3, or grossly over-expensive projects like Hinkley Point and the rest of the nuclear programme, the Great Renewable Energy Scam, any defence procurement project, or anything spent by the Home Office or DWP, all of Gordon Brown's PFI crimes, and most centralised IT ideas for the NHS.
"(1) Define "waste of money".(2) Example of what is not a "waste of money"
(3) Source of clairvoyance. "foolish belief that this is going to work"
(4) Please ask source for the lotto numbers."
For goodness sake, it's an underfunded project to achieve an unclear goal using uncertain technology.
Previous attempts at this sort of thing have proved unsuccessful at best, and a public relations disaster at worst, and there is nothing in this project to suggest it will fare any better. How far do you think £4m split 13 ways goes.
And I'm not sure it is even desirable - it is always a bad idea in the long run to build tools which can be trivially repurposed to suppress dissent - how do you think China, Saudi Arabia and your local police force will repurpose and abuse this if it worked?
What makes you think this is for an actual system and not just for a proposal or feasiblity study?
£4 million will go a long way to get a concept proposal out i.e. paperware.
https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/202703_en.html
look at the cost splits - this is not for a production system, the headline is click and commetard bait.
https://www.iborderctrl.eu/Publications
What has been done with the money this far.
People here are leaping to the assumption that the £4m is for a working field ready system.
Spend a little you get accused of not spending enough, spend a lot and you're accused of spending too much and wasting huge amounts of taxpayer money. Rather like a tabloid headlining a (usually black) footballer one day for shopping at Gregg's and the next day for spending 6 figures on a car.
So what IS the 'correct' level of spending for this sort of project?
Incidentally, "The EU has thrown 4.5 million at a project" is not the same as "4.5 million got spent on this project". It's quite likely that all the research universtities etc could have come up with some funding of their own, maybe also some private funding. Secondly, I don't think 5-10 million is too little for the research and prototype development stages especially if they use standard PCs/webcams and not any custom-made hardware.
What are they going to train it with and what if lets say 30% are telling a small lie to gain entry anyway?
What if they are a genuine refugee that made the mistake of trying to enter a hostile country first? Do they get turned away?
Lie detectors are not 100% accurate and AI isn't going to change that.
And what if the questions are being asked in a language in which the perfectly legitimate traveller is not fluent, and is struggling to understand the question & formulate an acceptable answer from their limited vocabulary? Current speech recognition "AIs" have enough trouble with regional accents as it is.
"And what if the questions are being asked in a language in which the perfectly legitimate traveller is not fluent, and is struggling to understand the question & formulate an acceptable answer from their limited vocabulary? "
The article says the questions will be presented in the travellers' language. Not sure they will be able to accommodate all travellers in the case of some exotic languages... but then again if the system doesn't handle a language, what's teh chances that any of the border guards can communicate with that person anyway?
You bet me to it, Phil. Let's also not forget that it took 90 minutes for the baggage to get unloaded so you can drag it through customs and there are no trollies on your side of the barrier. You are still trying to get blood to circulate through your lower body after being crammed in a seat too small to contain anybody larger than a 6 year old malnourished child from Bangladesh. You need both a toilet (functional) and your blood sugar has falling through the floor. Sod the AI, the examiner has the most impenetrable regional accent you have ever come across. The news is showing that another boat load of "refugees" have been welcomed ashore by the navy and they've been given a warm blanket and a hot meal as you are standing in an over-airconditioned room dying of hunger.
I can easily visualize politicians believing that AI is the answer without every having defined what the problem is they are trying to solve. First define the problem and then train examiners properly. An AI isn't going to take into account that the flight the people came from just flew through major turbulence for the past 2 hours and drinks/meals couldn't be served and trips to the lav were limited and acrobatic, to say the least. It may not be able to adjust to people that are coming from many different parts of the world in random order.
What happens when accusations are made that the AI is using "racial profiling"?
Indeed. The more comfortable the person is with telling a lie, the harder it is for it to be 'detected.' I have passed a poly myself, knowing the consequences were very undesirable (not quite severe) should I have failed. I did lie during the examination, and was not entirely troubled about it. Part of me lied to protect my secrets, which is why most liars lie to begin with I suspect, but a small part just wanted to see if I could defeat the machine. I'm extremely less impressed with anyone who can defeat such an exam, now that I have done it myself. I don't imagine many serious people trying to gain entry to a country to do ill would have difficulty during such a test.
Anonymous for obvious reasons.
I doubt the aim of this is to actually improve anything, merely to add to the layers of control.
AI based polygraphs are going to be no better than a regular polygraph, and just adds to the theatre of security being put in place because we have to "think of the (illegal) immigrants", now that we're pulling up the European drawbridge and going all isolationist.
We can't be British (aka English) if we let Johnny & Jane Foreigner in to dilute our National Integrity(TM)
"theatre of security being put in place because we have to "think of the (illegal) immigrants"
incidentally this system will be used at legitimate crossings by people legitimately trying to enter the EU using a passport and possibly a visa application. The real illegal immigration is coming overland via Turkey or by boat to Spain / Italy / Malta / Greece
""theatre of security being put in place because we have to "think of the (illegal) immigrants"
incidentally this system will be used at legitimate crossings by people legitimately trying to enter the EU using a passport and possibly a visa application. The real illegal immigration is coming overland via Turkey or by boat to Spain / Italy / Malta / Greece"
People voted for Brexit on the back of worrying about illegal aliens. Never did it occur to them that illegals will come regardless of immigration law, that's their whole modus operandi...
"We can't be British (aka English) if we let Johnny & Jane Foreigner in to dilute our National Integrity(TM)" nice idea but the evidence is against it.
Anyone with wealth to spend here can come to the UK and stay if they bribe the right people, same as the other third world setups.
Sadly having wealth has never prevent immigrants from being a danger to the UK however this is never taken into account since the people who control the setup are whores with morals that a snake would look down upon. The actual outcome of the new system will be that border control now have a "impartial" IT third party to back up their arbitrary exclusions.
For the locals seeking to cross a border it just means that they can blame their failures upon the computer.
The best way to pass a lie detector test is to avoid having to take it in the first place. If I'm planning on doing bad things in another country, I am also likely to not want to go through any sort of customs screening. Once you are in a country, it's far less likely that you will be caught having come in informally. I certainly don't want an entry stamp in my passport.
"Lie detectors are not 100% accurate and AI isn't going to change that." - Over here in feraldom lie detectors are not admissable in court as evidence. So either the EU is allowing something on the order of reading goat entrails to make 'decisions' for them or they go back to the old fashioned way of actually doing real police type work.
You're right. We need to clamp down on freedom of movement. We should section off each country and each region with each country into separate military districts and block all movement between them unless a citizen has the appropriate visa. It worked for Soviet Russia and it will work for us.
Makes nipping over for the day on a booze run sound like a bundle of laughs.
I'd honestly not be surprised to hear that this whole project was a British idea originally, and they were sounding out whether the Europeans would kick up another fuss about them using it on UK daytrippers over that might be depriving the taxman over the matter of a couple of bottles of plonk and a month or twos supply of ciggies.
"I'd honestly not be surprised to hear that this whole project was a British idea originally"
Yeah because the EU dont have plenty of idiots and busybodies that it must be the brits. And I am sure once we leave they will no longer be in multiple self inflicted crises and suddenly even be competent enough to run a pissup in a brewery. Screw leavers expecting unicorns this is solid gold dreaming.
"You look down and you see a tortoise, Leon. It's crawling towards you."
"You reach down and you flip the tortoise over on its back, Leon."
"The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs, trying to turn itself over but it can't, not without for your help. But you're not helping."
"I mean you're not helping. Why is that Leon?"
maybe they can use this question scenario...
and I'm guessing you're in trouble if they ask you to say only good things you can think of about your mother
At Acme industries, we have invented an exploding anal probe for detecting terrorists. It is so effective, it can detect people that are at the very early stages of becoming terrorists.
It is 100% effective at preventing potential terrorists entering a country via entry points protected with the device.
While the product is effective, it is messy and we are investigating ways of reducing the unwanted waste - Project Solyant Brown is looking very promising...
Caution: this may result in a drop in tourism numbers but also reduces the demand for additional runways at airports which politicians (well, the ones that don't travel abroad...) will appreciate too.
Good luck to the approx 1 in 4 people that suffer from depression or anxiety, or both, or similar. Those not particularly over the moon about returning home from a holiday, etc etc.
What could go wrong?
other than everyone when they use said 5 million pound algorithm to reduce staffing levels I mean.
"People with ASD who don't make eye contact."
My thoughts exactly. And having a child with high functioning ASD has helped me become aware that although there are extremes of the autism spectrum, a lot of people (including myself) probably sit on the spectrum somewhere and simply don't even know it.
>1 in 4 people that suffer from depression or anxiety, or both, or similar.
They will automatically be detected as British and allowed in.
Anyone showing signs of happiness, contentment and enthusiasm is obviously a foreigner (probably Australian) or weido (ie Australian) and will be blocked
The EU says it is hoping to begin trials of the program soon at border crossing points in Hungary, Greece, and Latvia
Greek Border checkpoint: "Avrio is manana without a sense of urgency". I cannot see them bothering to check what's on the terminal screen as they run their checkpoints JOINTLY with their counterparts from other countries, f.e Bulgaria. They also leave the other guy do all the work.
Hungarian Border checkpoint: "Are you a Turk regardless of your stated passport nationality? Is your family name Turkish? Do you try to return a ham sandwich and ask for a cheese only version at service stations?". If the answers are all yes, you are up for a shake-down regardless of what the computer says. If the answers are no, the border guard waves you through with a bored face.
By the way - I drive through BOTH of these more than once a year and I have done it for years. I do it via different ones too - both huge like Horgos/Rozke and small ones in the middle of nowhere like Makaba. So this is based on statistically significant set of observations. The case with that reporter which was kicking refugees is not unique (as their high court decision on it goes to prove).
"travelers will also be asked questions by a computer animated "border guard" that is localized to the traveler's language and ethnicity"
Well, they say that, but I can't help wondering just how localized they will be in practise.
One example from within the EU that springs to mind is Bulgaria, where even basic reactions like nodding your head don't always mean what you'd normally assume they mean...
I travelled shortly after the automated passport scanners were deployed, and the experience was a bit crap. It failed to scan one friend's passport completely, so he had to join the queue for a regular inspection. Another friend was wearing a beanie (we were going snowboarding) so he had to remove that so his features could be scanned, he'd forgotten his shades were over the beanie, they went flying into the booth, so he bent down to pick them up, at which point the glass doors closed on his head. My passport scanned, I entered the booth area, and then didn't know what to do, as the screen hadn't popped up any instructions, being a bit slow.
So I'm a little skeptical some AI driven system is going to perform well enough to not annoy passengers.
Politicians - a more suspicious group of people you could not hope to meet, furtive glances, refusing to directly respond to questions......
Obviously you wouldn't want to block this group of "dedicated, elected members".
So a whitelist held somewhere in the system? or a card that the individual could carry?
So how does a real bad person fake entry to the whitelist or get hold of a card ?
got this working well enough (IE getting less than 90% false positives)
Its time for the next stage... replacing the border guards with automated border drones
"Drop the purple donkey... you have 20 seconds to comply"
"Drop the purple donkey or you will face lethal force.. you have 10 seconds to comply"
"Drop the purple donkey or you will be shot.. you have 5 seconds to comply"
"Non-compliance with order , you have been shot....... please enjoy the rest of your visit to the EU"
Cmon for all the b€€lions this puppy is going to cost it's going to have some freaking fantastic AI abilities.... something like:
1. Determine entrant's claimed nationality
2. Present a variety of national food dishes to entrant
3. Recognise when entrant smiles at one
4. Compare claimed nationality to dish nationality - Bingo! (or not)
OK I could just train a hamster to do this but it wouldn't have a sexy AI tag giving it the cheap-at-half-the-price sticker - before tax and overruns of course (include virtual reality and/or blockchain and you could easily justify triple the cost )...
[Paris - this is going to be one expensive pussy]
Am I the only one here to recognize that picture of Arnold S in disguise at the Mars entry point in Total Recall?
for those who didn't see it, the head blows up after a glitch in its own AI gets stuck saying "two weeks" in response to the question of how long a stay is expected.
I will sell a guaranteed defeat to this system ...
"that analyzes answers given by travelers to a series of questions at border checkpoints, and their facial expressions..."
It involves having a few Botox jabs called "Detector Defeat Therapy" (if it's got a poisonous acronym it'll encourage more rich idiots to have it injected into their faces). As can been by watching any TV involving Hollywood 'people', the face moves as much as a damn plastic manikin so won't set off a detector unless it's so hot the face melts ...
2018: "fingerprinting, palm vein scanning and face matching have been carried out"
2020: gait, eye movement and behavioural characterstics have been carried out
2022: posture, DNA recognition and anal resiliency have been carried out
2024: brain pattern, genital fingerprinting and IQ testing have been carried out
FFS when will this sh!t end???
For all those technology and privicy issues this project raises, another major problem is that those universities involved in the project should also draw on their Psychology Departments to find out what we know -- or actually don't know -- about emotions and bodily expressions.
There has for nearly 130 years existed three different schools for what emotions and their foundation and expressions are. Major problems still do exist - or to put it another way: The whole field is a giant mess! To believe that there are fixed facial expressions related to some distinct emotions that you just can read off, shows a poor understanding of the many problems rased in this subject.
As for all the big technology and privacy issues - a major problem is also that there is no unified and agreed upon theory of what emotions are, and how they are ellicited and expressed in humans. Three different schools have existed for more than 130 years, and I doubt the're going to merge tomorrow....
The whole field of Psychology of Emotions is such a mess that important voices recommend we now move back to nearly square one for a coordinated restart of the research. To believe that there are some fixed facials expressions corresponding to some specific emotions is very unsofisticated thinking.
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