In Windows 10 Update land, nobody can hear you scream Somebody got a little trigger happy with the big red Windows Update button last week as a broken Intel audio driver was unleashed on users “by mistake”. It has been a hellish couple of weeks for the Windows giant following the launch of the troubled October update for its flagship operating system. Not content with Display …
That's my view too. The issues are not obscure enough to be down to the lack of certain specific and unpredictable test scenarios that may not have been executed.
This does seem to be down to broken process, and lack of action taken on feedback. This therefore is poor to the point of genuinely as opposed to humorously unprofessional.
"the Intel driver was 'incorrectly pushed to devices via Windows Update'"
More like "excreted to the world via the usual process", i.e. without any testing at all, i.e. "it will work, trust us".
As far as I can tell, Micro-shaft does not HAVE a QA/Test department. They were all laid off just before Win-10-nic released... to be replaced by 'insiders' aka 'fanbois' (who are then ignored). See icon
Unless the testers can press the "no go" button, and can spend all day long JUST testing the OS and teh updates (aka get a salary for it) on a wide range of hardware, we can expect more of this.
(but everyone here already knew this - obvious thing is obvious)
Because MS have hijacked their own system, startup process to give the appearance that its quicker (I can feel an ASA complaint coming on here), the system generated events are now in the wrong order.
For example, create two tasks in the task scheduler, one to run at system startup and one to run at user logon. The user logon task fires a whole 10 seconds before the system startup event on the system here.
As its coming up to Xmas I'm sure the yet to be seen MS's adverts can be complained about. It doesn't help that Intel also muddy's the Microsoft water with their need for speed over security.
"For example, create two tasks in the task scheduler, one to run at system startup and one to run at user logon. The user logon task fires a whole 10 seconds before the system startup event on the system here."
Gosh, it sounds just about as reliable/wonderful as systemd...
Exactly. An update that kills audio? Thanks, that won't hurt my screen reader at all, now will it? Fucking microsoft.
At least the sighted folks can see to interact with their computer to roll back the MS fuck up & restore their audio subsystems. Screen reader users have to take their "dead" computer to places like BestBuy, let the GeekSquad work on it to fix it, & then pay the Danegeld to get a working computer back. All to do it all over again the next time MS fucks up & fucks over our computer.
And people wonder why I say Win10 isn't fit for purpose? I should be able to make MS pay for every trip to the fix it shop to "bring it back from the dead" because it's an expense I wouldn't have to pay had MS bothered to do Due Dilligence & actually, you know, test their fucking code.
*A double handed TheFinger at MS & hopes they get mauled by an angry mob of their users*
No I don't use Win10, I don't dare "upgrade" to that pile of festering shite, I can't afford the constant repair bills it'll generate every time MS fucks up!
Thanks for the personal experience example there Shadow Systems. Though not requirements, I do have personal preferences. I have also worked with individuals who have visual or hearing impairments.
So, not that it helps, but we all know how you feel to some extent. Microsoft also ruin the entire boot drive, my documents folder, or graphics driver. So we all get a complete computer crash, blue screen of death, of failure to boot.
Somehow, I think if Windows 10 even turns on these days it is a miracle!
Quoting Shadow Systems:
And people wonder why I say Win10 isn't fit for purpose?
I've used the same thing many times. I don't actually remember anyone objecting to it, though I have to say that I am not likely to find any such thing here. I think the people who feign innocence and ask, "What's with all the hate for Windows 10? It's great" are just trolling at this point. Even if a given person has managed to dodge all the bullets, it doesn't mean he is unaware of the existence of said bullets.
'My students love it. It's the next excuse for missing assignment deadline and asking for an extension.'
When my (computer science) students come up to me with an excuse like that, I simply point them to all the Linux machines in the computer lab (they can be booted to Windows too (I think 7, I never use that), we are not an anti-MS shop).
No, NT3.5, NT3.51, NT4.0, Win2K, XP and Win2003 server NEVER this bad. Vista was bad but gradually improved, finally sorted by SP called Win 7.
Win ME was broken from start. Only solutions were either Win 98SE (if gamer or HW/RAM no good for NT), or NT4.0 (Business only) or Win 2000,
Win 3.x gradually improved to WFWG3.11 with Win32s, VFW, 32 bit disk and MS 32bit TCP/IP.
Win 8 was stupid.
Win10 is abuse of users and a worse backward step than Vista or ME. GUI wise, they forgotten everything learned since Win3.0. It's a failure on configuration & management with settings all over the place and sometimes looking like text, or now command line only (Net Users command needed to add new local users with no MS account on some Win 10 versions),
Why downvote me and not tell me why, its an internet forum so you are allowed to correct me?
Windows ME with 512MB and disabling the crud is about as stable as any Windows 9x operating system (Its 98 with some hurried bloatware added on), I know as I had to put up with Windows ME on a computer I purchased (Windows ME with 128MB of ram, with a standard install for me would BSOD after 30 minutes of gaming), a year later I went to Windows 2000 and could then look down on my fellow Windows 9x friends as they had random BSOD's in Half Life mods such as Sven Co-op whilst lanning.
"Why downvote me and not tell me why"
Don't take it personally. It's probably the howler monkeys, slinging poo as usual. Go fig, yeah. I get downvotes all the time, just for being me. It's a badge of honor. Par for the course. Etc.
I got this T shirt that says something like: "The Internet - if you're not offending someone, you're doing it wrong". You could insert 'getting downvotes' and ti would be similar.
"if I am corrected or someone gives a decent reason then I am happy to take it on the chin"
I don't even consider that as "taking it on the chin". I am happy to be corrected! When I make a mistake and someone corrects me, that's a moment to celebrate as it means that I've become just a little less stupid.
@Doctor Syntax
"when did ANYONE last use a CDROM?"A few weeks ago. Debian or Devuan CD-ROM, boot up minimal installation disk, do a network install.
I do believe OP meant, but didn't explicitly say (perhaps being lazy), CDROM drive, as opposed to a CD R/W drive. And when's the last time anyone used a CD-only drive as opposed to a DVD-R/W drive or even, these days, a BluRay R/W drive?
Tho admittedly, at home, I have't had a working CD/DVD/BluRay drive for a decade.
Same here, 8.1 was where I kind of jumped off the Windows train. Bought Win 8 Pro shortly after the Win10 RTM proved to be pretty much everything we feared it might be (unending "development", forced updates, even-more-questionable privacy practices, etc.). Just add ClassicShell, and it'll do most anything I need it to do. Though somewhat more difficult than Win7, I have yet to run into any major compatibility issues with old software such as early-2000s directx games, VB6, and older office variants; what problems I did encounter were easily resolved with the body of reference that has accumulated trough people's trials and errors to date. That last part is something Win10 seemed to try to throw out the window(s); fortunately, a lot of Win7/Win8 compatibility tricks are still relevant.
At last investigation, Skype uses three different dart boards. Sometimes these agree with each other, sometimes they don't. When they don't (which will happen on a previously working system before an important call) then Skype will operate in the most retarded, useless and uninformative manner and simultaneously tell the user that it's configured, testing, not working and not configured (no audio devices available).
I've given up on Skype, on the Mac. It insisted I update it and all I get is a window with nothing in it. The buttons are all there but if you click on the wrong one or the wrong bit of the screen it borks the whole thing.
I only fired Skype up to try and help my wife out who was having trouble with it on her work Windoze box and needed a separate user to troubleshoot it.
So it's WhatsApp or nothing (Facetime is still there but I only have the eldest on that and she's not talking to me . . .).
"So it's WhatsApp or nothing"
Even the original WhatsApp developers as good as recommend that you should use Signal instead, after Facebook started to grope WhatsApp with their tentacles in unpleasant ways.
(Sadly, the desktop dumbish client for Signal is pretty clunky, however.)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2018/09/26/exclusive-whatsapp-cofounder-brian-acton-gives-the-inside-story-on-deletefacebook-and-why-he-left-850-million-behind/
"I've given up on Skype, on the Mac. It insisted I update it and all I get is a window with nothing in it. The buttons are all there but if you click on the wrong one or the wrong bit of the screen it borks the whole thing.
I only fired Skype up to try and help my wife out who was having trouble with it on her work Windoze box and needed a separate user to troubleshoot it.
So it's WhatsApp or nothing..."
Whatsapp or nothing? Did your Skype managed to break your mac completely or something?
Regardless of the condition of your mac,
Have you tried using Skype for another platform?
Have you tried using Teamviewer to directly fix the problem?
Have you tried using any other chat/video chat alternatives?
Have you tried using your phone to call?
Seriously, the only thing that is x or nothing would be my clothing. Either I'm wearing something or I'm wearing nothing.
"Windows seems to use a dartboard to determine which default audio device to use, especially for Skype."
I'm not sure whether I am relieved or saddened to hear that that is not only a "feature" of Skype on Linux as well (trying to work out which obscurely named audio device is the built-in loudspeaker, versus headphone out, versus headset out, is a nightmare...)
in that their Windows is installed on many different sorts of hardware. This makes it hard to test all the combinations - which means a lot of work. But if they have sold, we are told, some 700 million of them then they must have the resources to properly test.
Contrast this to Linux: which runs on a wider selection of hardware than does MS Windows - you rarely hear of such breakage after an update. Even with manufacturers that only support MS Windows, once a device work it tends to stay working.
So: which is the 'hobbyist' operating system I wonder ?
A number of people I know are moving to linux because I use it and with all the problems from win8 up to the win10 aka broken windows that I do not suffer at all. And these are not advanced users at all. I run win7 because it is stable and works. I avoided the 'upgrade' win8 metro and will not have win10.
Win7 is really good. XP got good after they fixed it which is why it survived so long. The OS is supposed to be the most reliable piece of software on the machine.
Solution: sub-contract someone like Linus to manage a *REAL* QA dept for Win-10-nic updates. Expect lots of profanity directed towards the developers. It's called "accountability". Deal with it.
[instead we appear to see NO accountability and the poor quality that's doomed to happen - I guess MS has too many 'safe spaces' inside the Hallowed Halls of Redmond, so that their "I grew up feeling good about myself" *SNOWFLAKES* can "feel good about themselves" even when they're *ROYALLY* *SCREWING* *THE* *POOCH*. I wonder how many directions the fingers are pointing over the Intel Audio SNAFU...]
OK nevermind. the REAL solution is to use LINUX (which already DOES have a 'QA department head' named Linus)
Microsoft have always been legendary for their ability to get it wrong, but someone has raised the bar dramatically this time. And still, they have cleared it with ease.
Contrast Linux. I have been a user for more than six years now, and have NEVER had an update bork the system. (I have done it myself, by buggering about in ignorance, but that's my fault.) Not only will it run on a wider selection of hardware, but it will also support a large number of older peripherals (printers, scanners) which still work perfectly well, but have long been abandoned by Windows.
The hobbyist system? Windows, obviously, because you can spend endless hours trying to get it to work. Trouble is, I thought you were supposed to enjoy your hobby.......
"I have been a user for more than six years now, and have NEVER had an update bork the system."
Well, a few years ago I had Manjaro (rolling-release) on a rather nasty little netbook, and it did eventually bork itself after an update. But the hardware was quirky to begin with.
That said, my main desktop runs Siduction, also rolling, and it has never glitched. Other of my machines run various Linux, and they're fine. But I do have one refurbished HP that runs Win 10 -- for limited, off-line purposes.
I get that people need Windows for many reasons, and that not everyone can just flip to Linux. And I get that Windows has to run on a wide variety of hardware. And that it has to run not only legacy software, but also the newest VBScript ActiveX Silverlight UWP framework from Microsoft.
And I get that Microsoft's OS lost in the mobe market (<3%), lost the tablet market (<2%?), is an underdog in the server market (20%? maybe), and has no real presence on mainframes and supercomputers. (For what that's worth.) The OS only dominates in the desktop-laptop market.
So with all that taken, would it not make sense to be letter-perfect when applying updates to the desktop-laptop sector? Does MS really want to choke its only chicken?
Palpy writes:
So with all that taken, would it not make sense to be letter-perfect when applying updates to the desktop-laptop sector? Does MS really want to choke its only chicken?
Windows is far from their only chicken. Nadella's vision is for Microsoft to be a cloud services company, which is not surprising given that he's a "cloud" guy. Make a cloud guy the boss, get a cloud company. It's not hard to figure out how that happened.
Windows isn't the magic money printing press it once was. The PC market has been in decline for a long time, and we all know the reasons... the obsolescence rate has slowed to a crawl, people using smart phones instead, on and on. Less PC sales mean less OEM sales revenue, and MS seems to be convinced that the desktop platform itself is dying. If they had any faith at all in it, I doubt they would have released 8 and 10 being as stupidly inappropriate for desktops as they were. When you're the king of the desktop, why would you forsake that if you don't think it's dying? Even now that they have no mobile plan, they're still pushing this half-phone, half-desktop abomination, and each release moves it closer to the phone end of the spectrum, as more and more bits are stripped from the desktop-oriented Control Panel and moved to the touch-oriented turd known as "Settings."
I don't think MS even wants to develop Windows anymore. Not as a general-purpose OS, anyway. I think the blatant monetization attempts and the conscription of consumers for beta testing duty on a product they paid for are an exit strategy. Squeeze the users for everything you can in the short term, which impresses investors with how you've managed to make Windows more profitable, which they will interpret to mean Windows is vibrant and healthy, even though it is having its essence parasitically drained with each passing day. This illusion of health and Microsoft's assurances that Windows is here to stay will increase the odds that people will stick with Windows and keep hoping it will get better (against all odds and observable evidence)... but that can only work until people realize that it's never going to get better, and that will keep getting worse. Eventually, the never-ending pain train will drive the users away, but by then they would have been monetized for years. MS could then toss aside the withered remains of Windows and be all about the cloud, having sucked all of the juice out of their former desktop monopoly.
If your question is whether MS really wants to destroy Windows, I would have to say that it's the only reasonable explanation of how Microsoft is behaving. There are a lot of lines that have been crossed that never would have even been considered during the peak Windows years, and it's not because Microsoft didn't want money as badly as they now do. It's because MS knew that certain things would produce short-term profit but kill the golden goose over the long run. Now that's just what MS is doing. It's the cloud or bust.
For the people who say they can't go to Linux because reasons, so they have to stick with Windows, I'd suggest you're only postponing the pain, and that you are still going to end up leaving Windows just like we Linux people did, because Windows as we know it won't exist anymore. It may linger as a gutted front-end for MS cloud services, but it won't be a full OS for running the applications you want it to run (as opposed to those cloud apps MS wants you to run). Might as well start a migration plan now, even if you can't fully make the move just yet.
I don't see how any reasonable person can look at this Windows 10 trainwreck and think it's not going to go down in flames eventually. It's been three years plus since MS unleashed this disaster on the computing public, and the pain just keeps coming. At what point do you realize that this is what Windows is now, and that no amount of begging or pleading with MS is going to change it? It's not going to get better. If getting better was part of the plan, we'd have seen some sign of it in three years. This is the plan-- using Windows has turned into torture, yet the market share of 10 keeps rising relative to other versions because MS is using their monopoly power to force people to accept garbage. It's your choice... take what MS feeds you or don't.
This "Eventually, the never-ending pain train will drive the users away, but by then they would have been monetized for years. MS could then toss aside the withered remains of Windows and be all about the cloud, having sucked all of the juice out of their former desktop monopoly."
Is the true reason behind the lackluster quality of Windows. It also explains Microsoft's sudden friendliness towards Linux and Open Source in general.
MS doesn't care what you run, as long as you pay your subscriptions and run it on Azure!!
Thanks for correcting me on the "Microsoft's only chicken" line -- I knew as I typed it that it was incorrect. Couldn't resist the phrase, though.
You make good points. But personally, I don't think MS is deliberately breaking Windows in order to justify abandoning the OS later.
Everywhere I look -- banks, hospitals, oil refineries, government offices -- Windows is the OS on the screens. Yes, they could be using Linux. Or Mac. But reasons: Office and legacy VBA, among other stuff like Autocad and bespoke Windows programming. All too tedious to enumerate.
Cloud? AWS > Azure > Google. But it's a three-way race, arguably, with Oracle and IBM and other smaller players baring their teeth and leaping at the buttocks of the leaders.
So, is this a smart strategy: sabotage and eventually abandon one of the Big Things which the company has got in its pocket, in favor of running in a technological horse-race which is far from decided? When it has already lost the phone, tablet, and server horse-races?
(MS Office can't be discounted as a Big Thing, and it is in MS other pocket.)
Personally, I think the current Windows malfunction is down to corporate stupidity when faced with complex problems. I may be wrong, you may be right. Your explanation is elegant. *grin* But I'm not sure MS has anyone capable of elegant long-term strategy in the house.
Sigh. Even with all this brouhaha over Windows, Linux on the desktop/laptop is still stuck at ~2% and Mac around 9%. Depending on which tabulation you choose. Been that way for years. Disheartening.
According to the software giant, the Intel driver was “incorrectly pushed to devices via Windows Update”
So, which idiot or system allowed non-validated code through onto Windows Update? if a person, then why didn't the system prevent this? Let's face it, the whole WU system is completely borked.
Deserve what I get?
Yes a reliable OS not constantly changing its GUI to fashion on the month, with a properish start menu and no Ford Cortinas.
I only use 3 or 4 web sites (this, BBC, and a few others).
I sit here and write code, I do not want nor need all the cruft in 10
I struggle with both 2D and greyscale GUIs.
I also think that the stress of Windows 10 could trigger adverse heath issues, I have had time off before with stress and would rather not again.
If I have to fight the main tool of my job I would be at risk, less productive and more likely to chuck it all in. (My pension pot is bigger than what is left on my mortgage).
As our next software will be multi platform I hope I can replace with something non MS
I went to upgrade my iPhone from 11.4.1 to 12.x since they'd released a point update to fix the inevitable wrinkles all .0 releases are prone to. I always take a full backup in iTunes before doing so, but I couldn't install the latest iTunes without upgrading Windows 10 on my laptop's rarely used Windows partition. After several hours of downloading and installing (how can installation take so long even when I have an SSD?) it finally completed, and I didn't suffer from any of the Windows update issues.
I did this on Friday evening, I guess I got lucky with the timing - after the fall release issue but before they borked the audio on HP laptops like the one I did this on!
Still would have preferred if Microsoft & Intel hadn't got together to prevent installing Windows 7 on Kaby Lake CPUs. Been a few years since I tried running iTunes under VMware, last time the connecting/disconnecting of USB it does with an attached iPhone caused too many problems. Maybe they've got it sorted and the only thing I use a native Windows partition for can be eliminated!
It may be worth exploring a few articles like this:
I haven't tried this myself but I gather people are repoting successful installs.
I just don;t understand why so many people have issues with Windows 10. Especially resorting to gimping themselves with a 9+ year old outdated operating system. Is Windows 10 so incredibly different that your brain can;t cope with the changes?
I know all this whinging makes people feel good and all smug that they are somehow sticking it to MS. In fact the opposite is true and it just makes you look as though you have some form of learning disability when you resort to 10 year old platforms cos different. I've got Windows 10 installed on so many devices and it's rock solid. Granted there have been a few hiccups with dodgy releases via Windows update but that's really not the norm. Aside from these windows has been rock solid since windows 7 and it's only got better with each release. Sure, they messed the interface up in windows 8 but it had vastly improved again by 8.1 and got even better with 10.
Really, I just don't get your issues at all. You all sound like a bunch of cry baby children that can't get their own way at making everything stay the same forever. I'm so glad none of the complainers work with me as no doubt they'd want to avoid any job that fell outside their comfort zone.
There's nothing wrong with a new OS being different. However, there's a lot wrong when an OS is an incoherent and unreliable mess. And many people see Windows 10 as exactly that.
I use Windows 7 because it works, it's reliable, and it allows me to run all the programs I need. And lets face it, the job of an OS is to be available when I need it, and to run all the stuff I need to run.
Windows 10's issues fall into three main camps:
1) The UI is a mess. Despite releasing numerous updates, there's still the mis-mash of "Settings" and "Control Panel" with no consistency at all. Some dialogs are old-school style, some are Metro style, it's just an inconsistent mess. In comparison, Windows 7 has a single Control Panel with everything in one place. Sounds better to me!
2) The telemetry that cannot easily be turned off. Sure, it you know what you're doing you can block most of it, but it's still something that unnerves a lot of people when their PC is snooping on everything they do. With Windows 7, you just block the telemetry updates and voila! No telemetry. Again, a tick for Windows 7.
3) Big "feature" updates that offer sod all of any value, but which make a PC unusable for ages whilst it installs, and cause numerous issues for people (hence all these news articles). I don't get feature updates for Windows 7, and as a result update-reboots happen when I want them to happen, they take a couple of minutes instead of a couple of hours, and the chances of anything breaking are noticeably reduced. Again, a tick for Windows 7.
Windows 10 could be good. If MS could offer a proper "off" switch for the telemetry, finish the damn thing so that the UI is coherent and consistent, and offer an LTSB version to the masses, Windows 10 would find far more acceptance. Right now, why should I install a messy OS I cannot rely on just because it is "newer" when I have a clean and reliable OS that does all I need it to?
"There's nothing wrong with a new OS being different. "
Actually there's a lot wrong with an interface being different without good reason. For avoidance of doubt "ooh - shiny" is not a good reason.
The whole idea of separating interface from implementation is that the implementation can change without affecting the way the entity is used. That applies to GUIs as well as programming interfaces. So the first rule is, don't change the interface. The other rule is, change the implementation if need be but don't break it.
How hard would it have been for MS to offer CHOICES of which menu system the user wants? Classic Shell, a freeware, rock-solid app that is unfortunately no longer being supported did so, offering Win XP cascading menus, Win 7 menus, Win 8 (if you're a masochist), or the option to use Win 10's native menus, plus many configurable options. And the missing 'Quicklaunch' bar, while I can recreate it, was far more useful to have by default than "pinning" apps to the taskbar.
So instead of MS offering us a simple choice, or simply buying Classic Shell to include, most people are stuck with some upper manager or marketing schmuck's "vision" of what a menu system should look like and how it should function. Also, the Win 7 'glass' windows were elegant and pretty, but apparently deemed irrelevant. I realize that the goal was to unify parts of the 'experience' across platforms, but must we all be stuck with the ugly, flat look that is worse than the Fisher Price scheme of XP, and reminiscent of some of early Linux's worst desktop manager choices circa 20 years ago?
If research was done and this really is what users wanted, I now hate people more than ever before.
@ Unicorn Piss
I used Classic Shell.
Am now using Classic Start Menu (free version).
It's fine. I need dark menus, and I need Apps to never be visible unless I want them to be. I just want to click on the Win flag or whatever at bottom left, and have all the menus come up in columns (one of which is Control Panel), like the old days. It does all that just fine.
I don't know what extra the paid version does, but this is fine for me, and I recommend it.
I guess most peoples resentment (including my own) is that the very valid points 1, 2, and 3 adds up to a piece of software (win 10) that is obviously NOT in the service of the user, but serves the nefarious purposes of the authors (Microsoft). FUCK THAT!!
Anybody who is able to use alternatives will. Sadly this is not the majority
Being pedantic, Ubuntu 18.10 is not a stable OS, whereas Ubuntu 18.04 LTS is.
Although Debian/Ubuntu security updates are usually painless enough, major version updates are still slightly nerve-wracking, and I have long since got beyond the point where having to dedicate a weekend afternoon or evening to doing a full OS update every 6 or 9 months counts as any fun...
It's not really a good idea to encourage switchers to go for anything other than LTS releases, until they have learned the pros and cons for themselves.
"Especially resorting to gimping themselves with a 9+ year old outdated operating system."
An "outdated" operating system that works correctly, is easy to use, and allows you to be productive beats a "modern" operating system that does not. Every time.
>>Sure, they messed the interface up in windows 8 but
>>it had vastly improved again by 8.1 and got even better with 10.
Really?
Personally I have a few issues with Windows 10... none are related to my ability to learn new things.
1.) The interface is too inconsistent. It feels like so much of it was shoehorned in.
2.) Lack of user control over telemetry, phoning home.
3.) Forcing updates... I prefer the Win7 update options, where I can choose to ignore, or download and install at my convenience.
It's not like I'm unfamiliar with the new OS. I use Win10 at multiple sites - were someone else is responsible for managing it. I just don't see the appeal of Win10 at this point. Maybe someday....
As for Linux, I like it enough but I can't really use it for much. Most of the work I do relies on .Net.
@AC - here's a simple breakdown of paragraph 1:
"I just don;t understand why so many people have issues with Windows 10."
1. 2D FLAT crammed up our asses (and taking away config choices)
2. 'Settings' instead of Control Panel crammed up our asses
3. 'Microsoft cloudy logon' strong-armed during install and when you add a new user
4. 'The Slurp' - monitoring everything you do, phone home to 'The Store' so it can 'suggest' things
5. the ADS (and 'The Store' in general)
6. 'Forced Updates' as in why these update COCKUPS are such a problem [updates are overrated anyway, unless it's to fix a REAL problem]
7. Reset of our configuration back to 'default' [which is FUBAR] following an update
8. Uber-slow inefficient update process overall, at Micro-shaft's convenience [not ours]
9. The general attitude that customers no longer matter
10. The general atmosphere that we have NO other choice, and something is wrong with US if we do NOT like being treated "this way"
"Especially resorting to gimping themselves with a 9+ year old outdated operating system."
'new' is not necessarily 'better'. Win-10-nic is evidence of THAT. If it's old, maybe it works REALLY REALLY well which is why we're still USING IT (instead of DOWNgrading to Win-10-nic).
"Is Windows 10 so incredibly different that your brain can;t cope with the changes?"
This is a typical pejorative 'leading question' that asserts an assumption that those who don't "get on the bandwagon" with Win-10-nic are a bunch of OLD FART, STICK-IN-THE-MUD, REFUSE-TO-CHANGE, UNABLE-TO-LEARN, STUCK-IN-THEIR-WAYS, UN-TEACHABLE LEMMINGS running off of the cliff.
The truth is, the [insert profane pejorative here] FANBOIS that promote Win-10-nic and *INSULT* those who aren't LIKE THEM (i.e. those who do not drink the Win-10-nic koolaid), are the REAL "lemmings leading the other lemmings over the cliff"...
Is Windows 10 so incredibly different that your brain can;t cope with the changes?
The computer's job is to serve me. I don't need to cope with the OS; the OS needs to cope with (obey) me. That's kind of the entire problem in a nutshell here-- Windows 10 doesn't try to serve the user; it tries to force the user to serve Microsoft. It's not that I can't cope with the changes, it's that I won't. I won't tolerate a computer that forgets who is boss. I won't tolerate forced in-place upgrades ever, let alone twice a year. I won't tolerate being told no, I can't turn off the telemetry or have total control over what is installed on my computer. I won't tolerate a ridiculous, ugly, inefficient UI that is a cobbled together mix of phone and desktop with no rhyme or reason. Won't do it.
If coping with change was the issue, I doubt I would have migrated to Linux rather than get on the Windows 10 pain train. That's just what I did, though... I haven't used Windows in months (aside from a VM), and I don't expect to again. I'll keep it on there for a while (I already paid for it, so why not), but eventually I will reclaim the space and Windows will live in a VM for those odds and ends that still require Windows.
Linux isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than Windows 10. An operating system that you have to pay for, and then tries to use you to serve the maker of the OS? Now that is outdated.
"I've got Windows 10 installed on so many devices and it's rock solid. Granted there have been a few hiccups with dodgy releases via Windows update"
Make your mind up - which is it? Hiccups with dodgy update releases does not amount to rock solid.
Personally, I'd rather stick to a nearly 50 year old operating system. It's not out-dated and it works.
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"...that your brain can't cope with the changes?"
Well, I distro-hopped for awhile in Linux and BSD, and my wife runs about four Macs. Two Android tablets. And, like many here, I started Windows at 3.1 (before that, actually, but that was the first graphical interface I ran). I've seen a lot of GUIs, and I can work with any of them if necessary. I could, if I wished, work with Windows 8.0. Or Win 10.
The point, as many have written, is that the OS exists to run applications. Ergonomics dictates that it should do this with minimum distraction, and with maximum clarity. So... an animated live tile for Candy Crush on what passes for a start menu? Really?
Windows hit on an ergonomic GUI in Win 95, and by Win 7 it had gotten quite good. Witness the elements of the Win GUI which have been duplicated in Linux and BSD interfaces.
Personally, though, I really like a Mac-style application dock, and Linux-style workspaces. I usually configure my Linux to add an application dock, and workspaces, if necessary. If I used Win 10 much I would configure it thus as well. But I don't use it much, so Classic Shell is the only mod I've bothered to install on the Win 10 machine.
Frankly, as with Bomba-Bob, the Win 10 flat look is not my favorite. But that's aesthetics, and some of the OSes I've run have looked odd as well. Sometimes the oddity is necessary: the Qubes developers had to find a way to launch multiple VMs from the main GUI, and indicate to the user which of the VMs had certain levels of security. As well as indicating the special-function VMs. (An admirable OS, and I hope their team is successful in selling it as a more-secure option for business use. Perhaps I'll try it again soon...)
But for the most part, this is not about crybabies who don't get their own way. It's about users who have moved past the live-tile toy-store aesthetic, and who therefore appreciate a clean and clear GUI. (And no adware, no sneaky telemetry, no glitchy updates.)
That's all.
Qubes sounds interesting, thanks for the lead.
I've a client that has to process thousands of emails from teenagers. Their system needs to be restored from image every few months, and now it needs Windows10 screwups fixed also.
We were looking at VM's for email or OS freezes, Qubes might be a good solution.
Also true with the AMD Ryzen. The Ryzen 1xxx will install on Windows 7 with a hack; any Ryzen 2xxx will not. The ACPI found on Ryzen 2xxx is incompatible with Windows 7. This, of course, means you cannot use the Windows 7 disc to repair your Windows. I prefer the Windows 7 disc because you can have multiple command prompt windows open.
Windows 7 will install onto a Kaby Lake system. I had it working fine on my Intel NUC last year. It's a sod to install due to driver support, but with perseverance I was able to get everything working and all drivers for all hardware working correctly. Admittedly I did this as a test because the NUC was earmarked for Ubuntu, but I just wanted to prove to myself that it was possible - and it was!
Windows 7 on Ryzen is a bit more simple as drivers are available for most things. My main PC is a Ryzen and Windows 7 runs fine on it (with the wufuc tool to override the Windows update block of course).
The only upside of Windows 10 is that it is actively helping increase the amount of work It support people get - which is ultimately more paid work.
That's it.
It's the first partner friendly move they've made, but I don't think it was intentional...
Microsoft is to be commented for its swift action in identifying and dealing with the problem.
Is the best they should expect.
I've see far fewer update issues in the last seven or so years I've run Archlinux (systemd switchover included).
If all the options are garbage? I'm blind. I use a screen reader, it speaks what happens on the screen. I have the following options.
1. Windows 10: makes me feel like I'm walking down the street naked; updates I can't stop destroy audio so whenever I boot the machine, there's the chance it won't talk; one update damaged the speech synthesis software, again, the machine wouldn't talk, whenever the machine doesn't talk I have to bring in, or get a camera feed to, someone who can see, basically make myself an annoyance for people I like because MS, which I don't like, will neither test their product or let me avoid it.
2. Windows 7: approaching EOL; can't turn updates on without feeling like someone is going to yank off my clothes and leave me just as naked as when using 10; installing on USB 3 motherboards is an experience from hell, installing on GOP only motherboards is impossible.
3. Linux: accessibility is a bad joke.
4. OSX: Accessibility is slightly less funny than Linux, but not much less, it's still a joke, just a bit less of one.
5. Blindness products: expensive; full of bugs; designed to take advantage of people who think it's a miracle computers can talk.
6. Hermitage in the desert: obviously the best available...
>3. Linux: accessibility is a bad joke.
I'm sure you're right, but there are people trying to address it. Here's a fairly active project and I note that they're asking for problem reports from users to help direct the devs.
https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility
What are the difficulties ? Are the solutions adequate or are they too hard to install ?
It's always worth considering what you can do yourself to help improve Linux - it might be writing code, but it can also be testing, writing bug reports, project managing, project championing. They're all needed to keep something on track.
As people have noted about other Linux problem areas : at least when they get fixed, if they're used, they tend to stay maintained for long periods. Not just dropped or accidentally broken like Windows.
It's not so long since Wifi was potluck on Linux. Now it pretty much always works but I never know if the Windows 10 box is going to connect.
It's always worth considering what you can do yourself to help improve Linux - it might be writing code, but it can also be testing, writing bug reports, project managing, project championing. They're all needed to keep something on track.
Wish I could provide more than a single upvote.
People can't expect GNU/Linux to be run with the same unified vision Apple has for its product or Microsoft tries to have it weren't so cross-eyed, long and shortsighted and only able to discern dollar signs with any clarity.
Desktop GNU/Linux is still mostly a community project, despite the corporate sponsorship it can garner these days.
From another blind user requiring a screen reader, I can't upvote you enough.
Let's find a sighted person that wants to take a break, have them lead us to the pub, & I'll pay for drinks until we can no longer maintain a proper grip on the floor to keep from sliding off this spinning world. =-D
accessibility is less of a 'thing' than it used to be, when nobody had the screen readers (etc.). I remember seeing some effort towards this in Gnome 2. Not sure how it's handled in Mate, as I don't use acessibility features. It's probably about the same as gnome 2 was.
But... I might consider the effect that "light blue on blinding bright white" has on the eyes. THAT hideous color combination, so typical of 'UWP' and 'The Metro' and Chrome and WAY too many web sites, deserves a FREAKING LAWSUIT under some 'Disabilities Act' clause, because that color combination is HARD ON THE EYES. It could make people GO blind! Well, contribute to macular degeneration, at any rate.
Blue light depletes the macula of its orange pigment. I did some work for an optometrist a couple of times, one project involving a 'flicker' test. It's used to test for macular degeneration. Light blue on bright white is likely to CONTRIBUTE to macular degeneration, which is why [on my FreeBSD system] I 'off white' the background colors a bit, so that they're slightly yellow - easier on the eyesight. [but I have to complain about this edit window as the font is WAY TOO FREAKING SMALL and everything looks like BLUR - I make a LOT of typing mistakes because I can't read it easily - hint hint hint - needs fixing, El Reg!]
So, for those "not yet blind", Micro-shaft needs to GET RID OF those HIDEOUS 'UWP' colors, and LET! US! CUSTOMIZE! THEM! OURSELVES!!! In fact, going back to a 3D skeuomorphic appearance would help a LOT with readability... and no WORSE THAN HIDEOUS 'dark themes' or so-called 'high contrast' themes, either. MS devs wouldn't know a nice looking readable easy-on-the-eyesight desktop if it BIT THEM IN THE ASS!
At least Linux devs are listening to blind people - and this also applies to those with motor control difficulties for whom a mouse or touch screen is unusable.
I'm part of a small group of amateurs working on a soft-synth that now has extensive CLI control with minimal typing and context sensitive responses.
Closed the lid on my laptop over the weekend and returned hours later to be greeted by the "Finishing installing updates" screen. Windows had installed the update and rebooted, closing all my running applications in the process.
No warning, nothing.
This is unacceptable. Why do Microsoft find this stuff so hard to get right?!
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"Why do Microsoft find this stuff so hard to get right?!"
Simple: they don't actually get WORK done in the Halls of Redmond. At least, not what _I_ would call 'work'.
And as such, they can't POSSIBLY comprehend what REAL WORKING PEOPLE need a computer for, or how it's typically used.
Couple that with their desire to MONETIZE THE CUSTOMER, the general attitude that THEY own the hardware too, and the ARROGANCE that goes with being an effective MONOPOLY on operating systems.
Let us not forget GWX. That kinda says it all.
Ah, it's that time again. Another Windows bitchfest with people complaining how difficult Windows 10 is to use, how they struggled with 2000, Vista, XP, ME etc.
Get a grip guys and girls. You're all sounding like a bunch of inept broken yesteryear vinyl records. A lot of you sound like you've just discovered the basics of using a computer. Waaaaah I can;t find control panel, waaaaah some of the settings are in a different place. Do you not find computers intuitive enough to just have a tiny hunt around and remember where the settings are when they move. Cry me a fecking river you bunch of whingebags. Dry your tears and suck it up. Life changes sometimes. Either adapt or die from moaning yourselves to death in a huge echo chamber circle jerk party that is el reg comments section.
We bitch and complain because things could be better, so simply, with a modicum of care and effort from MS, yet every time patches or 'features' are released it's a new flavor of pain for IT departments and end users, and it just doesn't have to be that way.
Sometimes I wonder if the management at MS was offered a deal with the devil: "You will have the world's most used software and be rich beyond your wildest dreams, but your payment to me is to cause aggravation to all of mankind."
Than you Microsoft for forcing me to leave your ECO system of Windows in Feb 2016, it has been such a pleasant time using my Laptops since then, with no hassle of wanting to reboot after simple security updates. I dont get BSOD's and my laptop seems like it has had a performance upgrade that was somehow for free !
I have no worries with viruses - life is such a happy place on Linux with Cinnamon desktop GUI.
What really surprises me is the amount of software that is totally free and even games are working in steam :)
I am sorry to hear some of your current users are not having a nice time at the moment and I am sure your shenanigans of late will also help them to reevaluate what OS they should be using going forward !
How anyone especially a court of law could conclude that the multiple defective Windows updates distributed by Microsoft constitutes anything short of gross negligence, incompetence and malice is beyond me. Not a single one of these defective updates should have been distributed without proper validation which would have disclosed the defects. Microsoft has inflicted untold pain, suffering and financial losses on Windows users world wide and IMO Microsoft should be fined billions of dollars to deter future willful negligence in their updates and software products.
No-one could be this witless as to release two idiotic brickware updates in as many weeks.
I see two possibilities:
a) A counterfeit Chinese Microsoft Corporation is now pushing out updates derived from stolen fragments of the real Micorsoft's git-housed codebase
2) Foreign agents have infiltrated Microsoft's coding force and are working from within to undermine this formerly trustworthy bastion of A Job Well Done.
There are no other possibilities.
Suggested additions:
3) Exceedingly poor DevOps processes
4) The staggering amount of work required to push out quality updates isn't getting done because the millennials that make up the bulk of the workforce go running for a safe space if asked to work more than 35 hours per week
5) The only thing that Microsoft truly cares about with its updates is tightening its slurpy tentacles on your machine and data... sod your audio driver
Even by Microsoft's standards their QA testing is Keystone Cops standard at best!
Whomever their QA manager is should be made to walk the plank of shame because these update bloopers are beyond a joke.
W10 is yet another half-baked operating system following on from possibly the worst OS ever in W8 and W8.1 (great title, guys!), and that includes the appalling Vista.
I suggest Microshite move on from W10 and go to W10.1 (ha!). Or better still dump W10 altogether because it is now a complete joke, and its developers and testers clearly have no idea what they're doing other than giving its customers more anxiety and repeated utterances of FFS!
"I suggest Microshite move on from W10 and go to W10.1"
But Win10 is that last version of Windows *snicker*. As if refusing to update a version number on subsequent releases means that those releases aren't new versions. Microsoft clearly couldn't be more full of shit than they are around All Things Windows these days.
Windows 8.1 is far, far better than Windows 10.
You can de-stupidize Windows 8.1. I'm a purist when it comes to UIs (Windows 2k is my reference for a nearly perfect UI), and even I liked Win 8.1 with Classic Shell (Classic style cascading start menu), Old New Explorer to ditch the ribbon, 7+ Taskbar Tweaker, lots of registry edits, app eradication via install_wim_tweak, and a custom theme (Classic in appearance, but uses WDM). Classic Shell has an option to block the Charms, and I used Metro Killer to make sure it never darkened my doorstep.
Once you scrape off that tablet crap Microsoft tried to tack on, it's quite solid. It sounds like a lot of work to get to a usable UI, and it is kind of stupid to have to fight MS so much to be able to be a happy user of their own product, but I had used almost all these things in Windows 7 anyway, even though 7's out of the box interface is far, far better than anything that came after it. If I was going to use all these tweaks anyway, why not use them on 8.1 and get three more years of support? (It turns out I didn't need them, as the migration to Linux that I started in 2015 is already done more than a year before 7 goes out of extended support, but I didn't know that would be the case at the time.)
Win 8.1 doesn't come with huge, time-consuming, buggy updates twice a year, and the updates that do come are fully controllable and don't cause the kind of issues the 10 updates pretty much always do. It shuts down when I want it to shut down and it can be left idle forever, and it still won't start installing updates. It doesn't try to serve MS or monetize me. It never uninstalls the programs I want installed or installs programs I do not want installed. It never removes my drivers and replaces them with whatever ones it thinks are better. It never changes my settings back to those that serve Microsoft... not to mention that it doesn't have 100 settings you have to change to get it to (partly) stop serving Microsoft. The telemetry MS backported to 7 and 8.1 is easily removed, since it was just kind of tacked on, not baked in as it is in Windows 10.
The loss of control over my own computer is the worst thing about 10, the real deal-breaker, so there's just no way that Windows 8.1 could be worse than that. I don't consider the 10 interface to really be any better than 8.1... they both boot to the desktop, not the start screen (option added in 8.1). One has a full-screen start menu with ridiculous tiles, the other has a partial-screen start menu with ridiculous tiles. Neither of them are any good, but I don't particularly see any big advantage in the Win 10 one. Win 8.1 and 10 both use the hated ribbon in File explorer, and they both have a ridiculous Settings app... though in 8.1, you can get by without Settings. There are only a few things moved to Settings in 8.1 (like Bluetooth stuff), but I have always found alternative ways of doing things. Not so in 10, where MS is gradually phasing out the good and desktop-appropriate Control Panel in favor of the bad and desktop-inappropriate Settings.
Windows 8.1, suitably modified, is the answer for people who can't migrate to Linux at this time but who want to keep getting updates for Windows beyond the drop-dead date for 7.
Windows 7 seems to have evolved into the sweet spot for Windows OS. A bit like how all automobiles, bar a few special cases, have four wheels, a steering wheel, a shift stick or drive setting handle, and brakes.
Why change what works so well until something truly a huge step up, something that makes the pain of learning something new justifiable, becomes available?
Change for changes' sake makes no sense. The only thing obviously lacking in Windows 7 is a good touch UI for non-desktop use, but that could added on as an installable component for those who want it.
So by what objective metric is Windows 7 supposed to be outdated?
"So by what objective metric is Windows 7 supposed to be outdated?"
That one is easy. Its kernel support for hardware that post-dates its final service pack is pretty poor and only going to get worse.
Fortunately, the fix is also easy. Run Linux on the metal and put your Win7 OS into a VM running on top. This also makes upgrades to new hardware really easy because all of your tortuously convoluted Windows settings are in a virtual disc image that doesn't get touched by the upgrade process.
As a side benefit, you can also run lots of Linux software on the "outside" machine and gradually wean yourself off most of the Windows-only applications. If, before 2020, you get to a point where the only apps you are still using on Windows are ones that don't need network connectivity, you can probably remove the virtual network adapter from the Win7 VM and keep using it indefinitely, sans patches.
"put your Win7 OS into a VM"
This has many other advantages. You can snapshot the VM before an upgrade, and roll back bad ones. You can filter the network connections. You can filter which usb devices are allowed to communicate with the VM. The virtual hardware is standardized, so you never need to worry about weird, broken drivers. You can clone the VM for a special purpose, or for two pieces of software that don't cooperate on DLLs or drivers.
The downside is VMs use a lot of memory.
+1 for the VM suggestion. That is what I do: Linux host and a few VMs for w2k, XP and win7 for all Windows-only software. Added advantages are you can choose how many CPU cores a VM gets, how much host memory, etc. Also many of the nastiest malware will notice you are running on a VM and refuse to act in case you are a security researcher.
What it won't work well for is games, but increasingly they are available on Steam for Linux or folk simply buy an Xbox or similar for the single task of gaming. Also you should be looking at at least 8GB of host memory for a good experience (keep at least 2GB for host, rest can be given to VMs). But hey, that is what web browsers seem to need these days anyway...
'not enough sales' 'PC market saturated'
This is NOT because of Windows 7. This is because of WINDOWS 10! People see Win-10-nic on a new machine, and they're like "how is this BETTER than what I already have?"
You want to increase sales? UPDATE Win7 for the newest architectures, and RE-INTRODUCE it into the market, shipping NEW MACHINES with Win7 on them, instead of Win-10-nic!
Yeah. it's obvious to anyone with a CLUE.
When 'Ape' (8.0) released, MS read the tea leaves wrong. they saw Moore's law NOT driving new computer sales any more. They saw an uptick in slab sales. They *FELT* that everything would be a slab, now, regardless of whether it was a desktop or laptop. And they were *WRONG*. They were *SO* wrong, 'windows for phone' fell ON ITS FACE as an EPIC MARKET FAIL. And we're stuck with the "phone-y" Win-10-nic user interface with UWP which will NEVER be used outside of Win-10-nic.
And, they're too embarassed to go back and do it RIGHT. So they keep going over the cliff, towards the icebergs, etc. because stopping and turning around makes them LOOK BAD.
But regardless of how they *FEEL* about it (the 'F' word, 'feel'), reality says they've SCREWED THE POOCH and it makes them look even WORSE by PERSISTING at it! The occasional lipstick on the non-oinky end of the boar, as well as the 'forced update' cockups, just re-enforces how bad things have gotten.
sounds like a top 10 list...
Top 10 ubuntu-like name suggestions for Win-10-nic releases
10: Nosy Ninny-Nanny
9: Unscheduled Upgrade
8: Flatso Failure
7: Slurping Snake
6: Tracking Tyrant
5: Arrogant Adware
4: Bandwidth Bandit
3: Crappy Cortana
2: Hideous Hog-OS
and the #1 ubuntu-like release name suggestion for Win-10-nic releases:
Worthless Win-10-nic !!!!
It's weird this wasn't caught, as the hardware, it happened on like my XPS 13 isn't uncommon you would think someone would have flagged it. The fix is obviously deleting the Intel audio and installing the correct Realtek (in my case)) driver. As Dell drivers website wasn't responding at the time it was a bit more fiddly than it should have been.
For about the last year, I've had no audio from my headphones socket following a Microsoft update. I've trawled the internet, tried everything, but to no avail. The built in speakers work fine, not the headphones. Curiously, when I run the MS test, I get the test sound, but nothing from any audio source. So further problems really don't surprise me any more.
Have you looked at which is the default?
I have to change the default for what I use. If I want my speakers, I set them, if I plug in my headphones, I still need to change the default to headphones as it won't change automatically, even though windows detects that the headphones are plugged in or unplugged.
I've been hobbying with Lubuntu, new update out on Thursday.
Runs on a 7 year old Tosh laptop Equium. Plug anything in, it works after a driver patch. Regular Kernel updates. Chrom(e)ium and Firefox. All the essentials there and Office 365 when needing reminding of Microshaft.
Put the stamps and coins away for a while and try Linuxing :o)
I have been defending Windows for years on the basis that it is only a small minority who have issues, and it is impossible to account for all possible setups, hardware and drivers.
But even I have reached the end of my tether with all the Windows 10 problems. While it may still be considered a minority, every issue is still affecting millions of users.
The whole point in Windows 10 ecosystem is that it was supposed to be easier to maintain and avoid these types of issues.
I now have a backup system running Linux
when did ANYONE last use a CDROM?"
A few weeks ago. Debian or Devuan CD-ROM, boot up minimal installation disk, do a network install.
I do believe OP meant, but didn't explicitly say (perhaps being lazy), CDROM drive, as opposed to a CD R/W drive. And when's the last time anyone used a CD-only drive as opposed to a DVD-R/W drive or even, these days, a BluRay R/W drive for windows 7 (https://www.softlinko.com/windows-7-lite/ )?
Tho admittedly, at home, I have't had a working CD/DVD/BluRay drive for a decade.
Well I had been holding off updating my Windows 10 partition by setting the network connection as metered but was forced the other day to go Linux only after the motherboard in my laptop died.
I took the HDD out of the dead laptop and popped it into a spare laptop I had hanging around. Now despite the hardware being completely different. - The dead laptop has a AMD chip and the spare an Intel. - The Linux Mint 18.3 OS booted up and sound, WiFi, videos drivers etc all working.
Tried to boot into the Windows 10 OS install and was faced with a BSOD because Windows couldn't handle the hardware change. I have took this as a sign that I should not spend my time trying to fix and to just abandon Windows and go Linux only.
Been there done that lots. Takes at least a day, often two for my mixed machines. '
The Linux hardware change is completed once the last cable is plugged in. Windows needs drivers (thanks to Snappy Driver Installer that's a lot easier these days, I have an external HDD with every driver it can find stored on it), sometimes registry edits (turning on or off a key specific to the CPU brand so the other brand will work), and in many cases a re-install from scratch is the only option.
About 10 years back I had a problem with Linux switching between AMD/ATI and NVIDIA graphics, but I could get to CLI and remove the offending drivers. Not so easy to do on Windows, especially with pretty much needing to boot to the desktop before you can get it to boot into safe mode! (or have they finally fixed that snafu?)
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