back to article Lyon for speed, San Francisco for money, Amsterdam for fun: the best cities to be a techie

We have some good news. The number one place in the world if you work in tech is Amsterdam. And that's on criteria ranging from broadband speed to salary to the number of electric car charging points. But before you pack your bags and book a flight to Schiphol, however, you should consider that while the city famous for its …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

    #1. Is the housing market overheating, is it tricky to find a place to live?

    _________

    #2. Do you need to speak Dutch to locate work, find a place to live?

    How about outside major cities. Is English still widely spoken there...

    (Assume Dutch will be learned, but to start out first year or two etc).

    _________

    #3. Is it true contracts for buying a home are in Dutch & English?

    _________

    #4. Does the same apply to Work-contracts / Phone-TV service?

    _________

    #5. What's the cost of living like, how does it compare with Dublin?

    _________

    Thanks in advance for any info! Questions apply to Vienna too btw.

    1. Grikath

      Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

      1) Yes.

      2) Ultimately, yes. Although in "Tech" it entirely depends on the type of job you're looking for, and company policy. Generally speaking, most anglophones find it hard to actually learn proper dutch, because every other cloggie will try out their english on you...

      3) & 4) No, contracts must be in dutch. Translations are generally available though. For a fee of course...

      5) Cost of living... That's so broad the "do your own research" flag comes up.

    2. Daniel von Asmuth
      Linux

      Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

      0) Presumably yes, but not me.

      1) the housing market in Amsterdam is overheated. Suitable only for really rich foreigners. You can always find a park bench to sleep on. The rest of the country has cheaper housing.

      2) in some IT companies, English or America English is the official language. On the stree, the spoken language depends on the neighbourhood: yiddish is rare, turkish and berber are common, spanish and polish less so. Outside the cities, Dutch is still the spoken language; Frisian less so. However, most Dutch people learn a bit of English in school. (this should change after Brexit)

      3) contracts for buying a home are mostly in Dutch; in Frisian-speaking areas they will be bilingual.

      4) the same thing goes for work contracts

      5) I've never been to Dublin, but I hear they use the Euro too. For a single IT-person, you should be able to live modestly off 50.000 Euros per annum, being the average salary.

      1. DavCrav Silver badge

        Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

        "However, most Dutch people learn a bit of English in school. (this should change after Brexit)"

        Bet you it won't.

        1. Lars Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

          "However, most Dutch people learn a bit of English in school. (this should change after Brexit)".

          There is no such problem. Firstly Britain lost control of the language a long time. basically to the USA, nothing wrong or reparable with that. Secondly there is no "hate" towards Britain or the language because of Brexit (or not). Just surprise and disgust at the low quality in the rhetoric around that topic, and the low quality of the people, high up, driving it.

          Personally I am not that surprised that people don't know much about the EU and are easily fooled. but what surprises me much more is how little Brits know about Britain and what makes it "tick".

          Never have so many known so little about their own country.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

            "Never have so many known so little about their own country."

            It's not what they know, it's what they know that just ain't so.

            (With apologies to SLC.)

          2. cream wobbly

            Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

            Never have so many known so little about their own country.

            I wouldn't say that. It's certainly true that the English are pretty ignorant, and always have been; but Yanks are giving them a run for their ... lack of self awareness. Other nationalities susceptible to similar behaviour include the Iberians, Russians, probably Italians, and very much the Danish. I'll wait for you to make the connection between those nations attitudes to foreigners and their recent history of politics. (Here's a hint: the Germans have climbed down in the last century, so don't feature on the list.)

      2. jmch Silver badge

        Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

        Haven't lived in Amsterdam for a few years now so no idea about the housing, but with regards to language...

        - All Dutch people know English. In fact most Dutch people have better English than many English people since their accent, while unmistakeably Dutch, is also clearer and easier to understand than Scouse, Brummie, Geordie etc.

        - Fot many international companies, English is officially or de facto the office language. Dutch people will however speak Dutch between themselves, and tend to default to that in many circumstances. Many companies such as KPN (telecoms), banks etc will provide material, T&Cs etc in English but as already explained by someone else above, official documents would be in Dutch. It's easy to be provided with an explanation in English, but for important stuff, get your own translations done.

        If you're planning to stay there more than a few months, learn Dutch. It's not that difficult to get to a basic conversational level and it's very helpful to integration.

        And yes, Amsterdam is a lovely place to work and live

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

        Yes, of course Dublin uses the Euro and 50k/year will allow a single person a nice lifestyle provided they're not claustrophobic (accommodation may be a shoe box)

        1. Ken 16 Silver badge
          Paris Hilton

          Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

          I did think Dublin would be higher up but fair enough

    3. deadlockvictim Silver badge

      Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

      AC» #5. What's the cost of living like, how does it compare with Dublin?

      Almost everywhere is cheaper than Dublin.

      If you are used to paying rent in Dublin, then you'll be able to afford Zürich, Munich and many other affluent European cities. They do speak Foreign here though.

      1. jmch Silver badge

        Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

        "If you are used to paying rent in Dublin, then you'll be able to afford Zürich, Munich and many other affluent European cities"

        I don't know about Munich but I would be quite amazed if rent in Dublin was as expensive as in Zurich.

        1. macjules Silver badge

          Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

          Rent in much of Switzerland tends to be a lot cheaper than you would think. What is expensive is that they often want the rent paid 3 months upfront.

    4. Secta_Protecta

      Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

      You've already got plenty of answers on this but what I will say is living in Amsterdam itself is pretty expensive. Rental properties in NL are generally expensive due to high demand but you can live a reasonable commuting distance from Amsterdam and save yourself a fair amount each month. Most companies here pay travel allowance to the office so it's worthwhile looking further afield.

      Apart from that all I can say is that I love living in NL, you can get by on English alone but it's worth making the effort to learn the language as the people appreciate it and will treat you differently, plus it opens up more job opportunities.

      Give it a go, out of all the expats I've worked with here there's only been a very small percentage who haven't loved it and stayed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

        @Secta_Protecta

        "You can live a reasonable commuting distance from Amsterdam"

        Any desirable locations come to mind?

        1. Secta_Protecta

          Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

          Sorry for the delay, I just noticed this reply. You'd be surprised how many places are within easy commute of Amsterdam, especially if they have a train station. The Bollenstreek area South of Haarlem is very nice, as is the area South of Amstelveen sweeping around East to Hilversum. North of A'dam I'm not so familiar with but I'm told Heerhugowaard is nice and also the Zaandam area.

      2. Chris Parsons Bronze badge

        Re: Any Reg readers living in Amsterdam right now?

        I lived in Amsterdam, it was the happiest time of my life. Try it, you'll love it.

  2. Marketing Hack Silver badge
    Headmaster

    Property prices in U.S. cities are not really a function of the financial crisis anymore

    Property prices in most of the country outside of the Northeast and the Pacific coast have recovered from the financial crisis, but are just plain cheap, and has always been so. Detroit, St. Louis and Philadelphia have seen the actual cities hollowed out by migration to the suburbs, and in Detroit's case really getting kicked in the butt by foreign automobile competition, but the suburbs of those cities are generally doing well. I can also attest that there are actually some very nice restaurants in St. Louis. I don't know Philadelphia and Detroit very well.

    Seattle is great, but the traffic is really bad at times. Bay Area bad during peak commute hours.

    If I were to move to any of them, I would vote for Minneapolis. It is very well run, clean and has really good cultural resources for a U.S. city not named New York, Chicago, San Francisco or Los Angeles. But you do have to put up with honest-to-God snowy winters.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Property prices in U.S. cities are not really a function of the financial crisis anymore

      have seen the actual cities hollowed out by migration to the suburbs,

      Which is the important point that crappy desk surveys like this ignore, that for a huge number of people, living in a city is a huge zero out of ten in the first place. Cities are an outmoded concept, dating back to the days when people had to group together for safety (and for rulers to control them), and because the vast majority of traded goods were heavy, often had short shelf lives, transport technology was poor and expensive, and in more recent centuries, achieving a critical economic mass in both production and demand in manufacturing was only really possible in a city.

      Much of that no longer applies. Cities are expensive, congested, transport is slow (even with the best public transport), crime rates often high, pollution and inequality are persistent problems. The urban aesthetic is scarred by ugly and decaying buildings in some areas. Space and greenery are the exception, wildlife conspicuous by its absence other than rats and pigeons. Fair enough for those who want the hussle and bussle, or who choose to work in sectors that still cling to excessive city concentrations (government, financial services). And I'd agree that the superior cultural life of a city is dependent upon having a vast potential audience of diverse interests. But all things considered, the suburbs and provincial towns or villages may be sneered at by the metropolitan glitterati, but people have - where they can afford to - voted with their feet. Cities are great for politicians and businesses looking to force feed a dense population with their "services".

      For me, and I suspect many others the answer to the question "what is the best city to live in?" is "None".

      1. disgruntled yank Silver badge

        Re: Property prices in U.S. cities are not really a function of the financial crisis anymore

        "wildlife conspicuous by its absence other than rats and pigeons"

        Within 5 kilometers of the White House there are deer, fox, hawks, maybe coyotes.

        "crime rates often high, pollution and inequality are persistent problems".

        Ah, yes. A fellow we knew, resident in Virginia, would tell my family that I was taking my life into my hands moving into Washington. That guys were carving each other up with machetes on S. Glebe Road in Arlington somehow didn't occur to him. As for pollution, the smokestack industry has mostly moved to Asia. Reducing pollution by moving somewhere that you have drive for the least errand? As for inequality, well, I guess you can reduce that by moving where the poor folks aren't.

        I don't say that cities are perfect, I don't argue that everyone has to live in them. But if you think that cities became obsolete when the barbarian hordes quit sweeping through, then I think you should reconsider.

    2. Ian Michael Gumby
      Boffin

      Re: Property prices in U.S. cities are not really a function of the financial crisis anymore

      Minneapolis?

      Dude, have you been there in winter?

      They don't plow the streets so if you don't have AWD or 4x4, you will be stuck.

      And when its -15 without wind chill... yeah right.

      At least in Chicago, you have a real city and public transportation that works and its only -15 for a couple of days...

      Not to mention two baseball teams, a hockey team, football, soccer (football) ...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But I don't like tuplips!

    But I do know the way to San Jose (down I-280, 15 miles). As for housing, I'm sure am glad that I don't have to buy here. The house across the street that is being built is $,$$$,$$$. Thankfully my wife bought the house we're living in in 1984, so it is CONSIDERABLY cheaper.

    I really don't care for charge ports, I have a nice 300+ mile (500 km) range vehicle on a single tank of gas.

    Oh, the DSL speed isn't that good, but acceptable. My sister who lives 200 miles from Portland (OR) has a stupid fast fiber optic connection.

    Life goes on.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: But I don't like tuplips!

      "I have a nice 300+ mile (500 km) range vehicle on a single tank of gas."

      Yeah, I'd probably complain too if that was all I got for a tank. 600-700 miles is more normal for me. And no, it's not a hybrid, pure ICE :-)

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        300+ mile range ?

        Hey, don't knock it - they're progressing.

        While we have 500+ miles as standard, USAians used to have very cheap oil. Twenty years ago, had there been an Internet, he would have been saying that he had a nice 200+ mile range.

        Now that they're paying around the same price, their mileage is starting to go up. Good for everyone.

  4. Frank Zuiderduin

    Considering Amsterdam's cable has max 400Mbit/s downstream broadband and that's supposed to be only 1.78 on a scale of 10, I wonder what kind of speeds Lyon has...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I wonder what kind of speeds Lyon has...

      You'll not find many ISPs offering more than 100Mbit/S in France to individual homes, but like most French cities Lyon is densely populated with most people living in city-centre apartments which are easy to cable. That lets them offer 1Gb to "the premises", and all the individual flats then have to share that. Looks good on paper, though.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby
        Boffin

        In Chicago...

        I can do fiber to the home , or 1GB/s via broadband.

        That's because I live in the city and there's fiber everywhere.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: In Chicago...

          You can get your very own OC-3840 drop anywhere you like, world-wide. All you need to do is apply liberal amounts of money.

    2. Hol314

      Lyon for speed?

      According to https://www.ariase.com/fr/news/couverture-fibre-thd-grand-lyon-testez-article-5196.html, 62% of homes in Lyon are eligible to fibre access.

      You also have the option of cable, which is more widely available, offers speeds up to 1Gbps up and 60 Mbps down and is fairly cheap… but is also tied to the worse ISP/telecom company (https://www.thelocal.fr/20180308/and-the-worst-mobile-phone-and-tv-operator-in-france-is).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lyon for speed?

        also tied to the worse ISP/telecom company (https://www.thelocal.fr/20180308/and-the-worst-mobile-phone-and-tv-operator-in-france-is)

        SFR, no surprise there. I was with them for almost 20 years for my mobile, they used to be good, but I gave up last year. Constant subscription increases, justified by useless new "services" like TV, and 'special' offers to change to a new phone that were more expensive than buying the same phone contract-free on Amazon. 'special' indeed :(

  5. Ogi
    Meh

    Are electric car charging points that important?

    I mean, they seem to include electric car charging points as an important "techie" metric, but I don't see what electric cars have to do with techies (Sure, they are "tech", but so is any other piece of complex machinery).

    I sure have no interest in them, and most techies I know don't either. Maybe 2% of those I have met through work have an interest in BEVs, but most seem happy to cycle, take public transport, or are quite the petrolheads (usually not for commuting, just tinkering with motorcycles/cars).

    I actually followed the list to the RS website (RS actually has a blog now, damn... I remember when it was just electrical components, and to use their digital catalogue they would send you a CD in the mail). They provide a list and methodology (which is nice). The list is:

    Fixed Broadband Speed

    - Mobile Speed

    - Cybersecurity Commitment

    - ICT Development

    - Quality of Living

    - Average Tech Salary

    - Property Affordability

    - Gender Pay Gap in Tech

    - Electric Car Charging Points

    - Commute Time

    Not too bad actually, but I still think the charging points metric is superfluous on its own, better to have removed it (or at least added "quality of public transport", "bicycle friendly", "car friendly" to the list), in my opinion.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

      Yeah I'd put that so far down the list it wouldn't even make the list - certainly not ranked high enough that a plethora or dearth of charging points is going to make a big difference in a city's place on the list as was apparently the case here.

      That's the problem with such lists though, everyone has different weighing of priorities. Some might consider salary their top item and give it a lot of weight, others might consider it rather unimportant versus things like climate, commute time or the impossible to objectively quantify "quality of life".

      Maybe what you'd want rather than a top ten list done by someone else's criteria is a web site presenting a menu of criteria that you can assign a personal 1 to 10 rank, and it'll order the cities to YOUR requirements! It would just need updated info for salaries, property prices, and yes I guess "electric car charging points" every year to keep up as things change.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

        "Yeah I'd put that so far down the list it wouldn't even make the list - certainly not ranked high enough that a plethora or dearth of charging points is going to make a big difference in a city's place on the list as was apparently the case here."

        Considering the push for hybrid and pure electric vehicles across the EU, with deadlines in place for the banning of ICE sales, I'd say it should be on the list. Admittedly the switch over is quite some way off, but the change is already happening now. The choice of a new ICE car is going to continue reducing as hybrid and battery cars replace them. I don't necessarily agree with the change or setting deadlines so early, but it is happening. Unless there are some major changes, it's either going to be problematical or require some policy reversals. As things stand now, cities getting in early with good charging networks and the likely local planning for the higher electrical consumption might be a good thing in the long run.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

          If the switchover is "quite some way off" then why rate cities by the number of charging points today? That's like rating a city based on how much of it is less than a foot above high tide sea level, because of what might happen many decades later if sea levels rise a foot.

          A city with no charging points today might be the world leader by 2030. There isn't even a standard yet for charging so a lot of the charging points may ultimately be obsolete and need expensive retrofit.

    2. ivan5

      Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

      I would have thought 'adequate parking space' and/or 'cost of parking' would have much more relevance. It is no good being able to charge your green statement if you can't then park it, besides not everyone wants an electric car.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

        "It is no good being able to charge your green statement if you can't then park it,"

        Many places do free parking for electric cars. Having said that, a local city has just given notice that they will be removing the free parking option in the city run car parks in a couple of months. Apparently there have been problems with people parking in the free charging spots and leaving the car there all day, stopping others fro accessing them. IIRC the new rules allow parking at a low rate for a max of two hours in a charging bay then you have to move the car to standard priced bay (without a charger) for any further time you need to be parked.

      2. Ben Tasker Silver badge

        Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

        > I would have thought 'adequate parking space' and/or 'cost of parking' would have much more relevance. It is no good being able to charge your green statement if you can't then park it,

        Seems fair to me. But, in that case, a high number of charging points should probably detract from a cities score - the more charging points there are, the more spaces have been effectively dedicated to leccy cars and are unavailable for you with your ICE.

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Are electric car charging points that important?

      "I remember when it was just electrical components, and to use their digital catalogue they would send you a CD in the mail)."

      Pah! Kids today. They never believe me when I tell them we used to get a phonebook sized catalogue through the post once per year. Yeah, just ONCE per year. No updates. And you had to post in your orders on paper forms too (or speak to a live human being on the telling-bone)

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Another dumb "top X" list

    Electric car charging points, "quality of living"...all cobblers. There's only two factors that count:-

    1) Are there a large number of similar jobs available

    2) Can you make a large amount of money after costs

    Everything else is bunkum. I know El Reg has got to fill the pages sometime, but replaying this click magnet is a bit pointless...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Another dumb "top X" list

      Not everyone considers money their #1 criteria for career choice or where they live, you know.

      Would you live in Nome, Alaska or a small town in Alabama if that came out first under your personal criteria? Would you work for Uber if they offered you $1 more than <insert your favorite non-evil or less-evil company here>? Because it sure sounds like the answer in both cases would be yes.

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        Re: Another dumb "top X" list

        Not everyone considers money their #1 criteria

        But he didn't… he put the possibility of getting other similar jobs in the same place first, and regarding money after costs which includes healthcare, rent and insurance (including pension provision).

        As for the other criteria: in Amsterdam no one needs a car.

        1. Grikath

          in Amsterdam no one needs a car.

          In Amsterdam the ability to park your car is a first-tier luxury....

          1. Daniel von Asmuth
            Linux

            Re: in Amsterdam no one needs a car.

            The famous 'Tulips from Amsterdam' grown outside the city, just like the 'Amsterdam onions', but some the 'weed' you buy in the coffee shops grows in town, and the Amstel Beer brewerly is open to tourists, but the actual beer is made elsewhere, and the 'Hollandish new' herring don't swim in the canals nor the IJ, but the red light district is still popular with British tourists.

            If you want to work in IT in the Netherlands, you go to Eindhoven and vicinity. (Amsterdam has an airport and some banks; The Hague has a few companies working for government; Utrecht has the national railways, Rotterdam has the harbour, the rest has agro-industry; Limburg is the best place to live). Eindhoven is over an hour by car from Amsterdam or Schiphol. Cheaper to live, best soccer team in the land, enough bars in the Stratumseind or Wilhelminaplein. Good Internet connectivity and you can still drive a car.

            (P.S. not all Dutchmen look exactly like the guy in the picture)

            1. Lars Silver badge
              Happy

              Re: in Amsterdam no one needs a car.

              "not all Dutchmen look exactly like the guy in the picture".

              Well, not all Brits look (or speak) like Boris and JRM either.

              1. TRT Silver badge

                Re: in Amsterdam no one needs a car.

                So in Amsterdam, you're saying the streets are clogged?

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: in Amsterdam no one needs a car.

                but they will after brexit

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Another dumb "top X" list

          My boss works in AMS, and he and everyone else I know there commutes via car. One data point only of course, but it's instructive.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Another dumb "top X" list

        Is this a bad time to mention I worked at (not for) Uber? Probably :-)

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Another dumb "top X" list

      Electric car charging points, "quality of living"...all cobblers. There's only two factors that count:-

      1) Do the have Blackjack

      2) Do they have hookers

      FTFY

      1. jmch Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Another dumb "top X" list

        "There's only two factors that count:-

        1) Do the have Blackjack

        2) Do they have hookers"

        So Amsterdam still tops the list, then?

    3. Hol314

      Re: Another dumb "top X" list

      To me the greatest problem with this list is that each factor is summed up with a single figure, obtained from only one or two sources of information: probably not totally meaningless, but clearly not very meaningful… And incidentally, are the sources even trustworthy?

  7. Warm Braw Silver badge

    Why is it always Vienna?

    Dunno. It means nothing to me...

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dallas?

    So a city being a total toilet doesn't affect its ranking?!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dallas?

      San Francisco is getting a bit of a reputation for being a toilet.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dallas?

      Dallas is a lot better than it was even a decade ago. Definitely wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd pick it over Silicon Valley or LA solely due to California's housing prices and ridiculous traffic. All the other advantages like climate, beach etc. can't overcome those issues. Hell even though NYC is even less affordable than California at least you don't care about the traffic because you won't need a car.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Dallas?

        About 6 years ago, my former employers moved a group of engineers from the Bay Area to Dallas. They took 15% pay cuts, but said they came out well ahead overall. Of course, this is a while back, but it's instructive.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Dallas?

        "NYC is even less affordable than California at least you don't care about the traffic because you won't need a car."

        From a friend who spent a year there, it's not that you don't need a car, it's that it's the least practical form of transport in the five boro's and so cost INeffective that it's really not worth the hassle.

  9. jake Silver badge

    I've been all over this muddy rock ...

    ... and if there's one thing I've notice that everywhere has in common is that folks who are unhappy with life will be unhappy regardless of where they work/live. Chasing happiness starts from within, and has absolutely nothing to do with the city you live in or the job you are doing.

    As someone far greater than I once commented "No matter where you go, there you are." You only have one life. Don't blow it.

    1. Nick Kew Bronze badge

      Re: I've been all over this muddy rock ...

      Well, I've lived in places that made me happy, and places that made me miserable. There really is a difference.

      The worst of all was London. Renting there was worse than my later stint of several months homeless and sleeping out. Though I think it could've made all the difference if I'd had either more money or an accommodation grapevine like students or nurses.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: I've been all over this muddy rock ...

        The other Shaltenak's Juppleberry shrub is always a more mauvy shade of pinky-russet.

    2. shaolin cookie

      Re: I've been all over this muddy rock ...

      I've also lived in quite a number of places on this rock, and while I agree with your sentiment on happiness starting from within, there certainly can be a connection to both the place and the job. It's just a lot easier to find that happiness when these externals are to your liking.

      My advise would be that if you're not happy with where you are, travel enough to compare and find a place that would be to your liking, and go for it. These sort of rankings take averages of random quality inputs and many of my experiences in the cities listed are certainly counter to the numbers given. But everyone's situation is different, so just find what you're looking for, and be happy with it. I found my way to the place that tops my list, and where exactly it falls on someone else's doesn't make a bit of difference.

  10. Pete 2 Silver badge

    The survey is done by RS Components

    But they miss out two important factors

    1.) Are the products in stock

    2.) Can they deliver?

    It is interesting that Philly comes in at second place, a very close second place but with a sucky QoL that in no way is compensated for by the "Cyber Security commitment" (if I knew what that even meant). It seems to be an artificial factor designed merely to push american cities up the ranking.

    Oddly the only English cities on the list are London and Birmingham (there are 3 Scottish cities).

    I am therefore happy to report that none of the best English techie destinations have therefore been revealed.

    Let's keep it that way!

  11. Velv
    Headmaster

    As for the worst places to go, Panama City ranks 90th i.e. last,

    I strongly suspect Panama City is not the worst place to go, it is only the worst place on the list. For example, Dundee is not on the list, is fairly well renowned for its tech, particularly gaming, but I’d rather go to Panama City.

    1. 0laf Silver badge

      That's a bit rough, Dundee is making quite an effort right now to pull its socks up.

      A Billion being spent on the waterfront, new V&A museum about to be spent. Junkies are usually quite friendly..

  12. Mike 16 Silver badge

    Maybe RS should move

    To a city so tech-friendly that they can find a web-designer who doesn't make a hash of the images, or doesn't rely on images rather than text. I can see how some people would consider their "Gender Equality" (or possibly "hook-up sex") icon appropriate for "Quality of life" (at least in Firefox 61.0.2, MacOS Sierra), but I have to believe there is more to quality of life. Little intangibles like not having to cope with inept web-designers.

  13. onefang

    "Outside of North America and Europe, the highest ranking city is Brisbane in Australia, coming 29th (Sydney is 46th and Melbourne 47th)."

    Odd, since Melbourne only recently lost it's "Most Livable City" title, but didn't drop far. On the other hand, there's reasons I moved from Melbourne to Brisbane. Climate, that's what's important to me. No matter how well they top such lists, you wont see me moving to any place that ever gets cold enough for snow to happen regularly. I like it hot. Tropical or sub-tropical for me.

    1. Secta_Protecta

      I moved from Melbourne to Mandurah near Perth and didn't regret the decision once. Melbourne is a nice enough place but most livable city in the world? I don't really think so.

      A lot of it comes down to personal taste and requirements of course so you have to take these surveys with a generous pinch of salt and think carefully about what's important to you. And by the way Melburnians, you can get decent coffee elsewhere, so there ;)

  14. StuntMisanthrope

    You can’t clone yourself.

    I’d add safety to list. Particularly in the top twenty. Having been to the most of the places, it’s unlikely, but some of the wrong places are full time scary. #fiveoh

  15. Potemkine! Silver badge

    "electric car charging points" as a criteria?

    Utter BS.

  16. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Windows

    Amsterdam is also rather diverse and vibrant and getting more so

    I guess once one is over 30, that gets tiresome fast.

    'Police can no longer handle the lawless jungle after dark in Amsterdam’ - ombudsman

    "The city center becomes an urban jungle at night," Zuurmond told Dutch paper, Trouw. "Criminal money flourishes, there is no authority and the police can no longer handle the situation."

    Drugs are being sold openly in the streets, pedestrian areas are used for car and bike races, there’s widespread theft and other offenses, the ombudsman said, using the world “mayhem” to describe what’s happening in the city.

    Earlier, Zuurmond set up three CCTV cameras at the busy Leidseplein square ringed by bars and clubs, which is located in the south western part of the city center. The facts exposed as a result of his surveillance experiment turned out to be quite depressing.

    "One night we counted 900 offences, mainly between the hours of 2:00am and 4:00am. The atmosphere is grim, and there is an air of lawlessness," the ombudsman told Trouw. "Scooters race through the pedestrian areas. There is a lot of shouting. Drugs are being bought. There is stealing,” he said, adding that police often do not even try to intervene.

    "There is violence but no action. You can even pee on the van of a mobile [police] unit and the driver won't say anything,” Zuurmond said. He also described the situation at the square at night as “intolerable".

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Try the open road?

    With ANU in Canberra, I wonder where the ACT ranks for tech. "A growing number of software vendors have based themselves in Canberra, to capitalise on the concentration of government customers; these include Tower Software and RuleBurst. A consortium of private and government investors is making plans for a billion-dollar data hub, with the aim of making Canberra a leading centre of such activity in the Asia-Pacific region." (Of course US $719M isn't even spare change to AAPL.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra#Economy

    What about Dresden//Leipzig (Twin Hub)? "How Europe's biggest economy is uniting its tech hubs to dethrone Silicon Valley" https://www.businessinsider.com/europe-overtake-silicon-valley-2017-6 Or Berlin?

    Vilnius is a nice city and "Yes, Lithuania just might be the mid-sized innovation cluster you’ve been looking for." https://technical.ly/2018/02/02/lithuania-vilnius-innovation-tech-startup-cluster/

    As a visitor, I enjoyed Leipzig, Berlin, Vilnius, Canberra, etc. and could live in any of them. However, why not live and work on the road in a camper, RV, van, bus, etc. in Arizona, California, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, etc. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJLowydxGmQ ) rather than on Beale Street in SF or in Oakland or Palo Alto or San Jose or Redwood City? All you need is a good internet connection, Python, R, TensorFlow, etc. and some clients or an employer.

  18. agnii
    Unhappy

    Bangalore does not even feature.

    It must be better than some on that list.

  19. This post has been deleted by its author

  20. jimbo60

    San Fran for money?

    Are you talking about income or cost of living?

  21. disgruntled yank Silver badge

    Philadelphia, then Seattle?

    I don't get that.

  22. Charles Calthrop

    dutch internet speeds so hot it could be straight out the oven

    1. onefang

      "dutch internet speeds so hot it could be straight out the oven"

      That's one reason I have my server in Amsterdam. Dirt cheap Internet to, at least compared to Australia.

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