Re: Irish abortion referendum.
@ Phil W
"No of course we can do things that can't be undone, my point was that if you're going to something that can't be undone it should be with the consent of an actual majority of the population not ~38%."
Thats why we had a referendum. Do we remain or leave, the people who cared of the 100% voted and leave won the vote. Job done. Following that was a general election where the one party offering remain didnt do very well. Either way it is a larger support than to join the EU where we had no vote nor any choice. *heading off the stupid argument someone will likely reply with: common market != EU.
"But that's why our existing membership with opt outs is the best option."
You have just spent a chunk of text telling me how crap the EU is and justifying leave to avoid that crap. So no our existing membership with opt outs is obviously not the best option. The ever closer union does require standardising more and more which will eat through our opt outs eventually (to be in the EU). And with the jellyfish (Blair, Cameron & May) so far we will see those opt outs vanish quicker than our rebate that was not on the table for negotiation (Blair) or our opt out of bailing out Greece/Euro (Cameron).
"To decide the EU isn't perfect so we must be better off out and quitting without any idea of what that will entail is like deciding you'd be better off quitting a job you don't enjoy without bothering to look for another one first."
The idea of leave was already known. Economic recovery, reduced import costs, a competitive advantage over the EU (also noted by the EU). Thats on top of the control of our own borders and sovereignty.
"My reason for wanting to remain in is simple and doesn't really come down to whether I like the EU or not it's a simple equation as to whether we as a country (and I personally) are better off in the EU or out."
My reason for wanting to leave is a simple equation as to the country being better off outside the EU. The EU is in multiple self inflicted crises and quickly got their excuses for the EU collapsing as brexits fault.
"As an absolute certainty we're better off in the EU in the short to medium term"
That is questionable. Yes there will be adjustment but the damage we have is from negotiation, not leave. There will be a changing of jobs to be more global looking instead of just EU looking, is that bad? To be removing the dependence on a block in multiple self inflicted crises? So far we have been promised 2 of the last 0 recessions. One the day after the vote to leave and one when we finally hand in article 50. Now that has been moved to some nebulous point in the future (i.e. next business cycle recession).
"no-one with half a brain could argue that we're better off now than before Article 50 was triggered"
I will argue with that. The currency fell and we actually started recovering back to normal. The US is unwinding QE, the UK is looking to increase the base rate, the EU is still years behind recovery and still expanding stimulus and members are still struggling! We have full employment as does the US and the EU is still bad. The dragging of negotiation (when we should have walked away) and desperate attempts to ignore democracy are certainly a problem but thats not leave.
"The value of our currency is substantially reduced"
You are welcome. The BoE and gov have been trying to do this since 2008. Our currency was overvalued and the drop finally allowed the BoE to consider increasing the base rate. Unfortunately bad weather and the ongoing attempts to keep us trapped in the EU are reducing that effort.
"major companies and banks are beginning to relocate large portions of their business out of the country"
Brass plates are being set up yes. Businesses that are dependent on the EU yes. So? We are at full employment and our dependence on the EU puts us in a dangerous position as other members are finding.
"the already crippled NHS is facing massively increasing staff shortages because foreign doctors and nurses feel unwelcome"
The NHS recruits globally. This is an interesting argument as remaining in the EU traps us with an EU immigration problem which reduces the capacity from outside. I have friends from the EU, US, Asia, Russia, Middle East and Africa. All pretty much have to come over as students and put up with a red tape immigration process except for the EU friend. My Russian friend loves this country and wants to move here, but isnt willing to be a student so is struggling to find a way. So immigration wise the EU is a problem. NHS wise this isnt even an issue.
"Things might well be OK, but only OK not some fantastical land of milk and honey trading with the poorer non-EU countries that Boris and co promised"
Might be ok, might be better than ok. The land of milk and honey is failing, that is the EU. The wet dream is drowning and shows little sign of improvement. When the dream meets the real world the real world always wins and the EU is discovering this.
"It will take at least a decade to get us back to the financial state we were in pre-Brexit if not longer and that's just to get us back to where we were."
What state when? How are you judging this? We recovered from the recession quickly and the threat used against leaving is we 'might' grow slower than in, which means we will continue to be better off even under pessimistic views. After all the crap you identified of the EU you seem shockingly certain that things are worse outside the EU. The EU being a falling share of the worlds wealth.
"If there were ever a good time for Brexit it would have been at a time of economic plenty not in a stagnant plateau at the tail end of a recession."
Bad news for you, we are in the boom phase. This isnt the tail end of recession, we passed that a while ago. We need to be getting back to a normal that is ready for the next recession due any time according to the business cycle. The US is getting ready, the EU is nowhere near and we need to choose. Tie ourselves to the EU which has a bad track record or rejoin the world and be responsible for our own country.