Windows 10 to force you to use Edge, even if it isn't default browser Microsoft’s about to test a new feature of Windows 10 that will force users to employ its Edge browser under some circumstances. Revealed in the announcement of Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 17623 for Skip Ahead, the change means “we will begin testing a change where links clicked on within the Windows Mail app will open in …
I keep telling ya'll, I'm a xNIX Admin that lives in Redmond (I'll be in prison for homicide before decade's close, I'm sure).
The Kool-Aid here is rampant, and most Macro$loppies working now aren't old enough to remember the Anti-Trust suit.
And this administration's DOJ doesn't seem too willing to reign in business so, I'll just say it to get it out of the way: Install BSD or Linux and call it an afternoon.
Oh, and "Edge" is the most secure browser because nobody fucking uses it.
RE: "Oh, and "Edge" is the most secure browser because nobody fucking uses it."
I'm tempted to say that Linux is the most secure OS because nobody fucking uses it. Once its usage becomes large enough and it escapes the control of a small group of people - see Linux based Android for an example - I'm sure the sense of security we all wallow in will vanish in a puff of pink unicorn smoke and our shibboleth will topple off its pedestal like the hollow plaster god it is.
AFAIR I changed the Desktop Background to a nerve-relaxing darkgreen with tiles showing in black I hate Microsoft - I hate Microsoft - I hate Microsoft in five-pixel high microfont for every Microsoft Windows® PC where I could do that.
MS gave me always the feeling I had only a teaspoon to hammer a nail in a wall, where UX gave me a toolkit with the lightest and most elegant tools to a sledgehammer.
AFAIR I changed the Desktop Background to a nerve-relaxing darkgreen with tiles showing in black I hate Microsoft - I hate Microsoft - I hate Microsoft in five-pixel high microfont for every Microsoft Windows® PC where I could do that.
You need this for wallpaper...
http://www.kmfms.com/main-logo.jpg
funnily enough people have no problem giving Apple a pass for doing exactly this same shit throughout iOS - you can't choose your mapping app, your browser, your mail app, your calendar etc. And because of this Microsoft starts to think it's okay to inch back to forcing users into using their second rate apps because Apple has got away with that behaviour for so long.
I use full-fat Outlook (because the Win10 inbox mail app is a half-arsed mess) and will be seriously grumpy if they start hijacking links there to point to Edge instead of my default Brave ... at the end of the day I don't care about what browser I actually use, but I want the one that keeps my history etc in sync and has a UI that doesn't suck... Edge ain't that.
So... yes it sucks MS are doing this, but if we're going to get outraged there let's make sure Apple also feel which way the wind blows
https://medium.com/@offbeatmammal/apple-are-a-design-company-so-why-is-ios-so-annoying-d40530dce8d9
(and no, this still won't usher in the era of desktop Linux. For all the great advances that have been made in the last few years it's still not the no-brain install that Windows is for the vast majority of users)
Have a pint OffBeatMammal
exactly my point on here, Microsoft does it - out come the penguins on a rant
anyone else does it - silence
and yes, no year of Linux on the desktop - thank goodness - Id hate to have to consult the whining masses when I have a tricky issue, esp. one that involves integration in a Microsoft environment
> exactly my point on here, Microsoft does it - out come the penguins on a rant
> anyone else does it - silence
Incorrect - they are all taking the piss. Apple on iOS. MS with their apps (Cortana, now Mail, etc). Google with things like Hangouts.
All are user-hostile decisions.
Penguin on a Rant?
exactly my point on here, Microsoft does it - out come the penguins on a rant
What, apple do it on their expensive phone?
The iphone may be the most well-known, but not the de-facto standard interface for phones the way Windows is for desktops.
Penguins are often required to use Windows more often than IOS in work or friend/family support, so Microsofts stupid decisions affect us too.
We don't always come out to put the boot in MS merely for sadism alone you know...
The difference is that Apple has always been a "closed box" environment where they control everything, and Windows USED TO BE an "open box" where you could customize settings, choose updates, etc. This is the reason I am not an Apple fan, and went with Windows in the first place. With Windows 10, Microsoft if trying to transition Windows into a "closed box", which is why people are pissed.
The EU did investigate both of them some time ago. That's where the mandatory browser selection screen came from. And a few years back when they investigated Apple, they decided that Apple didn't have a big enough market share to worry about possible monopoly abuse. If you don't like iOs forcing you to use inferior apps, don't get an iOs based device.
Speaking as a Penguin who also owns Apple and Windows kit (as well as an old copy of OS/2 in the back of a cupboard), I personally don't care that much. I can see why antitrust people might care, however, as it is an attempt to leverage their position to distort a market.
Apple's iOS stance is basically around security, and not wanting battery/space munching web rendering engines loaded on iOS when theirs is already painful enough, thank you. And they might support Flash too, which would be worse.
Fun fact: Adobe Flash comes pre-installed on Windows 10 and you can't remove it without butchering the system. Given that you can remove that small slice of purgatory that is OneDrive from Programs & Features, I wonder how much Adobe are paying for that little privilege?
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No. Apple do not get a free pass from me. They are an appalling bunch of lawyer loving crooks who give MS wet dreams about locking down their users.
My response - never buy from Apple, don't recommend Apple and point out that Apple phones are no better than Samsung, OnePlus etc but do include the standard Apple "gullibility tax".
No. Apple does not get a pass.
"Or they choose to use MS"
Very few people choose to use Windows -- Windows is just what comes on the machines people buy. To use Apple requires an active choice rather than merely acceptance of the default.
I think it's fair to say that Apple users, having gone out of their way to choose Apple products, know what they're buying into. I don't think the same is true of most Windows users.
> Microsoft provide a generic OS that can be installed on any (compatible) hardware.
The important word here is CAN - nobody makes people use Windows - choose from at least four other 'OSs' that work on PCs, one from Apple (macOS?), Linux, ChromeOS (sort of), Android (sort of).
As we keep hearing here, Windows is not mandatory anymore, if one doesn't like it, choose an alternative.
If your company makes you use it, it is no different to being forced to use a locked-down PC or a 'special' phone or an old piece of kit you hate, it is part of your job and you decide if it is enough o make you look elsewhere.
For the masses with 'No Choice', they won't give a shit either way, they know nothing about Browser wars, OSs or anything else, stuff just changes and they carry on or ask for help.
Personally, I find Edge doesn't massacre my memory and loads pages fast, both things that matter more to me than OS politics.
> As we keep hearing here, Windows is not mandatory anymore, if one doesn't like it, choose an alternative.
OK so you get a choice of which OS to use but you don't have a choice of which OS you have to pay for. It is very difficult to buy most PC HW without paying for a W10 license. There are also issues with the FW being reluctant to run other OSes.
It is very difficult to buy most PC HW without paying for a W10 license. There are also issues with the FW being reluctant to run other OSes.
And here is why I no longer buy *NEW* PC kit (laptop or desktop). Some OTHER sucker has already paid the Microsoft Tax, and has gotten rid of the machine because it now runs like crap. I wipe the drive, load Linux, and I'm good to go. And being slightly older hardware means the hardware issues have already been sorted.
"Windows is not mandatory anymore"
Can you please tell that to my employer?
You seem to misunderstand - there is still choice here - just that your employer (who has the right) has taken it for you. They have a choice what browser you use during work time and you have a choice whether or not you work there.
If your employer bought Apple hardware then your employer loses their choice of browser - but you can still walk out - which I would do if my employer switched to Apple.
ugh.
I started work for a client, who insisted I used Windows. Not even allowed Linux on a VM because "policy".
I walked out (politely) before lunch, got a call back in the evening after they "reviewed their policy".
That might sound like me being an ass, but I was actually hired for my Linux expertise to migrate their servers. (18 months on, I'm still with them)
"If your company makes you use it....it is part of your job and you decide if it is enough o make you look elsewhere."
I have to wonder if you are actually employed. No, it is not part of my job to use a browser forced on me by Microsoft.
I have to wonder if you are actually employed. No, it is not part of my job to use a browser forced on me by Microsoft.
I'm happy for you, I really am. But that doesn't make you any less of a pompous git for not realizing that the rest of the world may not have the same luxury as you. Fat-asses tend to be like that.
"Personally, I find Edge doesn't massacre my memory and loads pages fast, both things that matter more to me than OS politics."
The new (58) Firefox is faster still and configures well for security and privacy with a load of good extensions (Privacy Badger, Ghostery, NoScript, uBlock origins, etc).
It is also phenomenal for memory management for those of us who do breadth + depth research on the Internet - a dozen windows with hundreds of open tabs, with no slowdown and memory footprint less than 1 GB. (disclaimer - underlying OS is Linux for me, but if you can get 600 tabs open under Linux, I suspect you may well get half that, at least, under Windows - the Linux Firefox improved quite markedly when they went to the new engine and architecture).
The new Firefox is also multi-core aware, and will use them while avoiding treading on other processes.
Apple provide iOS installed an hardware they make.
Microsoft provide a generic OS that can be installed on any (compatible) hardware.
You can only get iOS if you buy Apple's HW. MS SW comes on almost everything else. MS also have contracts with just about every other HW manufacturer making it difficult for them to supply non-Window's systems, so it is very difficult to buy a non Apple PC without being forced to buy Windows. MS are considered to be a monopoly and as such are expected to behave in ways minority players aren't. The EU has in the past forced MS to give users a choice about browsers, they then quietly forgot and the EU quietly forgot to enforce the ruling until it became public that there was an issue and they were chided back into action.
"MS also have contracts with just about every other HW manufacturer making it difficult for them to supply non-Window's systems, so it is very difficult to buy a non Apple PC without being forced to buy Windows."
... and this is the thing that needs fixing ...
"no problem giving Apple a pass" - One major difference
Apple provide iOS installed an hardware they make.
Microsoft provide a generic OS that can be installed on any (compatible) hardware.
Not Quite Anonymous, Apple iOS is executable on just about ANY x64 intel or AMD architecture out there. I've already done this with Snow Leopard a long time ago and it was quite easy along with a multi-boot of Ubuntu and (unfortunately) windows 7. If anything it's 'Apple' that should be right up there along with Microsoft on the stump target shooting block as far as I'm concerned for abandoning all of their old software platforms that were brilliant and letting them sit and rot. I'd give both a "Triple-F".
> funnily enough people have no problem giving Apple a pass for doing exactly this same shit throughout iOS
Apple iOS is a walled garden. Apple iOS has always been a walled garden. If you buy Apple iOS products you know this and chose it, so it should be no surprise that it is a walled garden. If you build apps to run on Apple iOS products you know this and chose to build the app anyway.
Microsoft Windows used to be a general-purpose OS that let you install and run whatever software you want, and customize how you want. Microsoft provided some default apps to get you started, which ranged from low-quality but works for the basics (e.g. Notepad) to some okay apps (e.g. the Explorer file manager, Calculator, Internet Explorer, the Start Menu / Taskbar). But you could always customize it and choose what apps you want to use, including replacing all the built-in apps with better competitors. People built competitors to all the built-in apps.
Microsoft are retroactively changing it, after people have bought it, so you're forced to use the MS web browser. People did not agree to this when they bought Windows. People did not know this when they invested significant money in building competing browsers.
"I'm altering the deal ... pray I don't alter it any further".
They aren't forcing you to use the built in apps. I wonder what percentage of Windows 10 users use the Microsoft Mail app anyway, probably not a lot. And of those the number who care about their browser is probably less than half.
Assuming you're not using Outlook (which many business users do) there's webmail, Thunderbird, Opera Mail or whatever else if this truly bothers you.
I had another go at leaving that accursed programme last night. But dammit, the calendar thing has me pinned. It's the one way I've found that keeps my calendar synchronised across PC/laptop/tablet/phone. And it can't synchronise calendars with it's "big brother" programme -Outlook 2010.
The email and contacts are no problem. Thunderbird does fine for the rest of the family
One is a gadget, a phone, a tablet.
The other is now primarily used for content creation and legacy applications.
There are alternatives to iPhone/iPad, it has less than 15% of it's market. MS Windows is the dominant OS for laptops & desktop computers, especially in business. Many people feel they have no alternative due to Sage, Payroll, CRM, Adobe high end packages etc.
Not comparable.
I already found that "Current" Firefox builds can be Win10 default browser, but even an updated Firefox 52ESR can't be set as default.
Also Edge isn't even a "proper" desktop application. Even if the most secure today, it may be incompatible or insecure tomorrow. It also breaks easily if Windows Firewall or Store settings are changed.
...this still won't usher in the era of desktop Linux....
No, and I long ago gave up crusading for same; I'll be happy if there are enough of us Linux desktop users to at least keep it relevant. But as a Linux desktop user - quite a few years now in personal life, albeit work keeps me in Win7 - it is pieces like this that make me smile. We penguinheads may never conquer the universe, but it's still a nice little smug corner of it in which we reside, not only shrugging off most (not all) of the malware that's floating around, but also shrugging off Microsoft (and Apple) making decisions for us whether we like/want them or not.
I have a couple friends who switched to Linux a couple years ago. They had older computers and I recommended they try Linux, Ubuntu, rather than waste money on a new Windows computer. They have very responsive computers that have been problem free and should be good for a few more years, as long as there is no hardware failure. The best part is I get no more requests for help for incessant Windows issues.
I have done the same and hardly ever hear from users again - except for one fellow who I migrated from Windows 7 on an antique laptop (Windows 10 would not install, no matter how much I tried) who manages to have "issues". Still trying to figure out how he manages this :)
" it's still not the no-brain install that Windows is for the vast majority of users"
It's not the 'no brain install' - Ubuntu, Mint, and others are dead easy... (pick language, username, password, and time zone. Default all else.)
It's "already installed because Microsoft bribed us / forced us to deliver only machines with Windows pre-installed".
Most users choose the monopoly that will control their computer and in Apple's case, their data, because it requires zero effort.
I'm no fan of Apple, however I'll parlay with this:
Apple shit actually works. Apple shit is actually designed to work together. Apple shit isn't user-antagonistic. You buy into the whole eco-system when you use Apple. HOWEVER, it's xNIX under the hood so it'll ultimately do what I effin' Tell it to do.
The difference is ios only has a small overall market share. The reason microsoft get a kicking is because they have a monopoly on the desktop OS market. If you have a dominant or monopoly position on one product you cannot use that to attempt to get a monopoly in another market.
"(and no, this still won't usher in the era of desktop Linux. For all the great advances that have been made in the last few years it's still not the no-brain install that Windows is for the vast majority of users)"
What planet are you on? Most people wanting to try linux will be having to try and install it for a dual boot installation alongside an existing windows install.
Last time I tried to install windows ALONGSIDE an already instaled linux operating system it decided to NUKE my existing bootloader leaving me with no ability to boot linux nor any way to roll it back. Hardly a no-brain install when you have to go onto the internet to learn how to create a rescue disk that can be used to mount your root partition to run update-grub to get the bootloader back.
I later solved this problem by giving windows its own drive and PHYSICALLY unplugging any drive I wish to be untouched by the pretentious windows installer. Again hardly no-brain. If it was a no-brain installer for windows it would preserve the existing OS while updating the grub menu.lst to allow you to boot windows. I havnt seen anything like that kind of user freindliness coming out of redmond, ever.
You are obviously comparing apples to oranges, complaining that the linux install process is flawed when installing alongside an existing windows install (it isnt, that problem went away ages ago) whilst the windows install process is flawless when installing on an empty drive.
funnily enough people have no problem giving Apple a pass for doing exactly this same shit throughout iOS
Plenty of us don't "giv[e] Apple a pass". That's one of the reasons I refuse to use Apple products. (Though, really, I didn't need another one. I haven't liked anything to come out of Apple since the //e.)
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from article: "Microsoft’s justification for the change is that Edge is the best, most secure browser on Windows 10."
HA HA HA { while(1) printf("HA "); } HA HA *cough*!
(oh, they're SERIOUS?)
from post: "Microsoft has a history of not listening and shooting themselves in the foot."
and NOW they're shooting themselves in the GROIN.
The 90s happened; what’s less clear is whether Microsoft actively erases them from its employees’ memories or whether there’s simply nobody left who remembers them…
(There are notable exceptions such as Raymond Chen and probably a handful of others, but they are unlikely to have much influence over product strategy.)
It's like the 90s never happened.
For the pointy-haired MBA-toting millennials that are now in charge at MS, the 90's literally didn't happen, because they were still in nappies when Netscape was suing Microsoft.
They'll learn.
Maybe.
This made me laugh out loud:
"...Edge is the best, most secure browser on Windows 10."
Err... Right... Okay then...
I dislike IE and Edge so much that I have used the program control feature of Norton Internet Security to block them from all internet access. I can not stop M$ from putting insecure internet browsers on my PC but I can stop them from being used.
Any browser that has Adobe Flash is insecure - and M$ has built it in!!!
(I also use Thunderbird rather than any M$ or browser based email client.)
Norton may not be great - however it seems to be about as good as its competition. The first line of defense that I use is NoScript with AdblockPlus. I also use Spybot Search and Destroy.
If I have to use a site that will not work with these protections then I fire up a VM running Knoppix from a virtual DVD (no HD), access the site from the VM and then shut down the VM. As there is no persistent storage accessible to the VM, any malware on the site is unable to infect the main Windows installation or affect a further use of the VM.
That's six percent too many.
OTOH, I'm not exactly moving with the times myself either. I begrudge using Thunderbird because it feels overengineered and bloated, but it's my "lazy" option. I prefer Claws, which TBH is just as easy to set up. I've been known to use Emacs Gnus on more than one occasion. I'm probably most comfortable with Mutt.
If the market share for Windows Mail (or whatever name Microsoft has given it this week) is a small fraction of 1%, I dread to think how Thunderbird is faring, and for me that's the "mainstream" option. I'd like to take this opportunity to say "Hi" to the other three people using Mutt.
Of course, I'm doing it all wrong. What I'm supposed to do is use a web browser as an email client, for the ultimate bloat and lack of configurability.
No wait, that's not it. What I'm actually supposed to do is chuck my dinosaur PC into a landfill and use a smartphone running GMail, or something.
Nope, still wrong. Email in 2018 is like using VHS instead of Netflix. What I'm really supposed to do is use FB Messenger, WhatsApp and SnapChat. I have no idea what they are, but they sound utter shit. And, lets face it, in the time it took me to write that sentence those apps are already passé, and all the kiddies have long since moved on to some other pointless fad.
Back to Mutt, then.
Don't say, I didn't warn you about Windows 10!
Its CEO Satan Nutella is a plain evil actor. No ones wants "his" personal computer to be controlled by the evil overlord, invested with adware and malware - yet Windows 10 is exactly that, users lost full control, yet another Ads ridden DRM ladden appliance leaking private data to the slurping Redmond cloud. (and don't compare it with a cell phone, a PC/notebook is for real data, not for fun) Beside that, Windows 10 and Office2016/365 is beyond ugly, clearly designed by colour blind designers who never used Windows 95 and undid all the UI/UX achievements of the past 30 years. Well done outsourced underpaid south Asian workforce, as dictated by a clueless CEO. In 2001 then-CEO Steve Ballmer called Linux "cancer". We call Microsoft and its slurping sw cloud crap "cancer" nowadays.
Microsoft *was* not supposed to be an advertiser. Let's hope they get a new CEO that does a 180 degree u-turn, or we see more corps flocking to Google, Apple, Samsung, Sony, Tencent, et al.
I hope Linux doesn't catch the disease ....
It already has. Redhat is the only major player for enterprise Linux, and they're busy riding the gravy train.
Spamming upstream with so much code that they've now come to dominate and dictate the way that (the main) Linux distros are going. Something like systemd, the constant need to refresh RHEL certification are indications that they've moved into the 'IBM of the 90s' phase.
Security through obscurity is not much security at all. So few people use Edge because the UI is confusing and stupid. It just makes more sense for hackers to go after a browser that people use, a logical one with a proper UI like Chrome or Firefox. The advantage of those two browsers is that updates do not require a full restart, and add-ons do not require you to use the Microsoft store.
This is MS and it is 2018.
One, they are going to do it.
Two, it is just the start.
Three, MS routinely claims that changes** have been overwhelmingly supported in consultations (at least by those who supported it, and the rest - apostates, all of 'em) do not count).
Four, MS wants everyone to use Edge exclusively - duh... !
Five, the only lesson they learnt over 30 years is that the average punter is now savvy enough to squeal when a crap browser is foisted upon him. And - end of civilisation as we know it - flock to a competing browser.
Six, the timing suggests that even MS realise their new browser was crap but now is not quite so crap, although they are moving forward in what are (for MS) baby steps (so it is still partially crap).
So what else is new?
**Oh, a "feature". Of course, Silly me.
They (MS) seem to be taking the 'Walled Garden' approach to levels that Apple can only dream of and in contract seem like rank amateurs when compared to Microsoft.
IMHO (and I could be very wrong...) this is all a prelude to moving to a perpetual subscription model for their Operating System.
"Roll up folks. For only £9.99/month you can get full support from us. Just let us install patches when we want to and to hell with what you are doing with the computer at the time. All in the interests of your personal safety and security you understand."
Sorry Redmond, I stopped playing your tune in 2016 and I'm not going back.
If you follow the link to the infographic on email clients, Apple clients (iOs Mail for iPhone and iPad, plus macOS Mail) add up to 46% of all clients. Of course, that doesn't mesh well with the "idiot tax" and general anti-Apple line of El Reg, so the article doesn't mention it. People have voted with their feet, or at least with their thumbs.
'The fixed bugs include nine remote code execution (RCE) flaws in the Chakra scripting engine in Edge. Microsoft says the scripting bugs (such as CVE-2018-0874) would allow an infected webpage to run code with the logged-in user's clearance level.
The Edge scripting engine was also the subject of four memory corruption RCE flaws, as well as an information disclosure bug, CVE-2018-0839, that allows an attack page to view objects in memory.'
No doubt more to come.
Not saying there aren't flaws in other browsers, but being forced to use one that is both shit and insecure seems like it might annoy a few folk. Hopefully some of those folk are in governments that like to squash anti-competitive behaviour.
"Not saying there aren't flaws in other browsers"
You pick your browser and deal with the risk. By ignoring this explicit choice on the users part (remember, edge is default initially), Microsoft is opening the risk of security issues to two browsers on a machine, not just the one the user chooses.
I'm getting tired of companies making shitty decisions to push their shitty products, then saying it's for my own good. Microsoft aren't the only ones guilty of this, but they are one of the worst offenders.
@Law
To be fair^H^H^H^H honest, this is already the case with Cortana, assuming she is switched on.
For those who are curious why MS are pushing edge so hard, their internal logic is as follows:
More Edge users use Bing than other browser users, proportionally. If we increase Edge market share; we increase Bing market share.
You pick your browser and deal with the risk. By ignoring this explicit choice on the users part (remember, edge is default initially), Microsoft is opening the risk of security issues to two browsers on a machine, not just the one the user chooses.
It's simple; we just find the two or three people in the world actually *using* the Windows Mail client, and hack their installation for them.
Google have been doing this kind of stuff for years.
If, like me you are forced to use Hangouts for work, not only are you forced to install Chrome but any links in Hangouts automatically open in Chrome not your choosen default browser because Google knows best.
But hey, Google do no evil (like store your every move on the internet) so all is good.
If, like me you are forced to use Hangouts for work, not only are you forced to install Chrome but any links in Hangouts automatically open in Chrome not your choosen default browser because Google knows best.
I am not sure which world you live in. Hangouts by default is a web app / website, so you can still use other browser to open Hangouts, meaning you are not really forced to install Google Chrome at all. Hangouts just opens whatever link you click on whatever browser you are currently opening in.
If you however use the Hangouts app, clicking on links will make your device ask/ or open the default browser you have set in your mobile device. If you don't have the google chrome app at all, it won't open the link in google chrome.
If you got Hangouts through Google chrome app store, well it should be obvious why Hangouts would then open all links in google chrome.
This post is not trying to say Google don't do "this kind of stuff for years", but they do it differently and not the way you've said (google chrome defaults to gmail sign in page, google.com recommend installing google chrome, gmail has quick app icons with Hangouts, etc.).
I wrote a Chrome packaged web app, and interestingly enough clicking a link in it opened the user's default browser. In fact, there was no way to bypass that behavior. There was actually a debate over whether there should be an API for opening a link in Chrome specifically, and they decided against it.
Mind you, now that packaged web apps are no longer supported on anything but Chromebooks, it's a bit of a moot point. ;)
Hangouts by default is a web app / website, so you can still use other browser to open Hangouts, meaning you are not really forced to install Google Chrome at all.
Except that's really not true.
Hangouts doesn't work in Firefox on Windows or MacOS. It certainly doesn't work in Edge. I think I did manage to get it to work in Internet Explorer after I disabled a bunch of security settings. (I may have got those last two mixed up - either way it requires some plugin to be installed first.) It doesn't work in Edge on Windows 10 Mobile because they incorrectly identify it as Windows Phone 8.1.
It works in Safari on Mac OS, which is the only browser/OS combination I managed to get working reliably without Chrome.
I'm pretty sure I tried another browser when trying to get it working in Windows too, but I can't remember which.
@ Lorribot
Hangouts work in non Chrome browsers e.g. FireFox (not sure about newer versions as I'm running on old version that still supports my add ons taht will not work on new "improved" Firefox)
Chrome is liked by some workplaces as easier to globally" administrate as some tools in place for corporate management, maybe that's why its forced on you? .. Though such sysadmin support is coming to Firefox apparently
forced to install Chrome
I'm surprised to hear that - I wasn't forced to install anything. Google are normally good with cross-browser support (for FF, at least).
I can't say I've tried anything with Edge (apart from mozilla.org), so YMMV.
Mind you, not many people do test their sites with Edge...
1. It's not available on the OS that the majority of developers use.
2. It's effectively in the "other" category.
3. IE (upon which Edge is based) is historically developer unfriendly in general.
I'm all for choice in browsers, however for those of us who remember the original browser wars don't want Microsoft dominance again. For those too young, Microsoft is irrelevant.
This current stunt, and the hoops you need to jump through in order to switch browsers, has a very bad smell.
For everyone who thinks Hangouts works in Firefox, even Google admits it only works in Firefox ESR:
https://support.google.com/hangouts/answer/7334146?p=hangouts_firefox&hl=en-GB&rd=1
Edge requires a plugin to work, but it doesn't install correctly. (Basically the installer never finishes, and refreshing the page just redirects you to the plugin install page. It's possible I need to enable Flash, but that's never going to happen.)
Internet Explorer works out the box (maybe because I got it working before), but you have to enable SSL 3 these days otherwise it says it can't connect.
Downvote me all you want, but at the end of the day if you haven't tried it for yourself, you're full of shit. (Which given that this is the Internet, is entirely likely.)
Just when I considered giving the MS mail app a try on my (only) Windows machine...
Actually everything here is strictly Linux except one machine: That Lenovo X1 Carbon I use for music production and performance. I jused to read mail on my mobile when I'm out of house with my Windows laptop, because I have never seen anything communications related that Microsoft would not completely fuck up. Having heard nothing specifically awful about W10s mail app, I almost thought I might give it a shot. I guess I'll give Apple a one, next time. I absolutely hate them, but they can't be even worse than Windows 10. Nothing could.
I'm pretty sure I know who - MOST W10 users. Because it is there, because MS told them it's the bestest, and I bet you, a large chunk of its users applaud, because this abortion of an e-mail client (I hear), displays some funky-pretty-swirly icon while opening (sorry, don't know, don't and won't run W10).
The Windows Mail App and calendar app are so shitty they beggar belief. I'm sort of tied into these on one home machine, at least until I have time and not too may events, and can switch because I started to use them to see what they were like compared to Outlook, because Thunderbird just isn't great with calendar integration and functionality.. Somehow, though the calendar app contain two versions of the account. One shares events with proper Outlook. One doesn't ( It'll import from Outlook, but not export to it). There doesn't seem to be any easy way to tell which is which. But once you start getting appointments in the wrong one it gets hard to go back. Someone got paid for writing that shit.
"Having heard nothing specifically awful about W10s mail app, I almost thought I might give it a shot. I guess I'll give Apple a one, next time. I absolutely hate them, but they can't be even worse than Windows 10. Nothing could."
Why not Thunderbird, which runs on Windows, MacOS, and Linux? It's been reliable for me for the last ten or more years, on both Windows and Linux, and has an extension for secure email.
I'm not sure I've ever fired up the Windows mail app, so I guess it's a change I wouldn't even be aware of if not for articles such as this. I locked down Windows apps by default, restricting what they could do on the machine in an attempt to impose some level of security.
....."When we talk about why we're upgrading the Windows 10 install base, why is that upgrade free? MS CFO asked during a meeting with Wall Street analysts. These are all new monetization opportunities once a PC is sold. Microsoft's strategy is to go low on consumer Windows licenses, hoping that that will boost device sales, which will in turn add to the pool of potential customers for 'Advertising'".....
....."CEO Nadella has referred to the customer revenue potential as 'lifetime value' in the past -- and did so again last week during the same meeting with Wall Street -- hinting at Microsoft's strategy to make more on the back end of the PC acquisition process. The more customers, the more money those customers will bring in as they view 'Ads'".....
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2917799/microsoft-windows/microsoft-fleshes-out-windows-as-a-service-revenue-strategy.html
It seems that the 'pro MS trolls' are out in force today. The obviously love downvoting any post critical of MS.
Makes for good entertainment on this cold and snowy morning.
Have I not got work to go to? Not with 2-3ft drifts between here and the main road. Still it might thaw later today. The same can't be said for the way MS is ******g over its users on an almost daily basis.
"It seems that the 'pro MS trolls' are out in force today. The obviously love downvoting any post critical of MS."
It's monday morning and the IT Professionals are back reading El Reg. Your getting quite a lot of downvotes because of things that are obvious to us, such as that business software programs for millions of obscure business processes that most people will never even hear of run exclusively on Windows.
The entire point of IT is to run more efficiently (ie, requiring less man hours) then manual processes as it costs less to automate than not. Nobody working in IT particually likes Microsoft, especially those of us who have been suffering their software for longer than some younger commentators have been alive. I would in fact hazard a guess that the older generations of IT Professionals hate shoddy, ill functional software as much as they hate ignorant comments.
I don't know if I've been in IT for longer than you, but I've been in IT for longer than Bill Gates.
No software runs exclusively on Windows. Alan Turing wrote proof of that. The only issue is whether the cost of migration between runtime platforms is greater than the cost of staying.
Microsoft became a profitable company by ensuring that people perceived that cost not to be worthwhile. It increasingly seems to be the case that they want to prove the opposite.
I don't predict a rosy future for them.
No software runs exclusively on Windows. Alan Turing wrote proof of that. The only issue is whether the cost of migration between runtime platforms is greater than the cost of staying.
It's a little more complicated than that, because runtime platforms aren't all created alike. For example, some game developers have abandoned macOS because Apple's 3D acceleration APIs have fallen behind (for example, they don't support OpenGL 4.3.) This leaves them the choice of either crippling the other platforms in order to dumb them down to macOS's level, writing a lot of duplicate code in order to support a macOS version of the game that will never perform well, or dropping macOS support.
"The only people left on the platform are unthinking cattle."
Errr no..
Windows is the only choice for many, some software just isn't available for Linux or Mac. Not all hardware is fully supported in Linux...
Personally I have Windows 10 (pro version), it is not the worst Windows ever, although I do have a fear that an update will cripple my PC at some point, or remove a feature I use... I've had that happen with Android apps in the past....
MrXavia,
If you can only go where your suppliers lead you, then you're not exercising choice or asserting your own needs. You're just being milked.
You might be happy with that. I'm not.
If you can't get the software you want on the platform you want to use, write it. If your skill is in other fields than writing software, commission someone else to do it. How do you think that software got written in the first place ? Did it descend from heaven ?
Don't just sit there chewing the cud and waiting in blissful innocence for the knacker. Take control of your life.
Adrian4,
I take it this is some form of 'Troll' !!! ???
In the real world:
You cannot *just* sit down and write the software you need on the platform you need without there being some *cost*. (Time, People, Money etc)
Most companies do not have unlimited funds to spend on Software Development, particularly if Software Development is a new experience for them and therefore actual costs are likely to be somewhat different to the 'Original Estimate'.
Considering the number of Projects that fail when initiated by companies that supposedly know what they are doing, guess how many would fail when every 'Toma/Roch/Harriet' tries to write or even commission their own specific software for their business.
At the small end of the market, most companies have difficulty describing exactly what they do in sufficient detail to allow such software to be written, which is why standard packages are used 'allowing' the creation of their 'own' process to perform their business (usually by Trial & Error at some previous point in time.)
Some larger companies may have a chance but the rest are just throwing money down the drain to get an almost working solution that is expensive to maintain.
Makes no sense .........unless you are a Freelance Software Developer selling the Nirvana of Bespoke Software to attact more clients. !!! :)
Windows is the only choice for many, some software just isn't available for Linux or Mac. Not all hardware is fully supported in Linux...
So because **some** software doesn't run under Linux or MacOS, then you say NO ONE should be running Linux or MacOS? If your business needs require an application that *only* runs under MSWin, then by all means you should be running MSWin (and BTW: I count any MSWin application that runs adequately under Wine/Crossover as "running under Linux"). But the vast majority of users could get by just fine with Firefox/Google Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC, Gimp, Inkscape, Pidgin, etc, and these run just as well or better under Linux (and probably run fine with the fruity bunch too).
My work PC runs Windows 10. Every time I reboot it, it switches the default browser back to IE. I've tried many suggestions to fix it, but none of them work.
I now have the Settings start on boot so that I can change the default browser back to my preferred as soon as it comes up.
Windows 7 was quite good and I didn't have any complaint with that one. Windows 10 is just horrible. Linux Mint which I use at on my personal laptop just works the way I want it to and if I could use it as the base OS on my desktop at work, I would.
"I doubt you can blame Windows/Microsoft for something that only happens to you. ;)"
I'm not so sure. My Win10 at home does this weird thing that apparently only I have noticed:
Start > Run > mstsc, type a hostname, press enter. The credentials box comes up, without keyboard focus, and the only way to get focus into the username/password boxes is with the mouse. Tab doesn't work, Alt + CHAR doesn't work. I assume this is a weird thing happening on my install rather than everyone's - surely others would be moaning at the shocking UI design otherwise?
This is just a straight-up install of Win10 LTSB. But I never had this rubbish with Win7, so I will take the option of blaming Windows 10 for it.
>>I assume this is a weird thing happening on my install rather than everyone's - surely others would be moaning at the shocking UI design otherwise?
>>This is just a straight-up install of Win10 LTSB.
Thats probably your issue - LTSB is not for general use and only gets updated every 2 years! Try a normal build.
"...links clicked on within the Windows Mail app will open in Microsoft Edge..."
This will have as much impact as if email addresses clicked on within Microsoft Edge would open in the Windows Mail app. i.e. None at all!
MISTER PROSSER: Have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?
ARTHUR DENT: How much?
MISTER PROSSER: None at all!
"Vladimir Putin wins election.
This is as far as I would take it, based on what I have read, so far.
'Election' is based on far too many assumptions that are difficult to *verify* just now !!!
:) ;)"
Привет (Hi),
Спасибо (Thank you) <Doff Cap> ......... to the russian who downvoted me !!!
At last we have proof that you are here !!! :)
[As if we needed it :) :) :) ]
Just bought a new desktop with Windows 10, the good points, it was cheap and it was quick delivered. Now the bad, 10 is shit masquerading as an o/s. Most of my crucial programs work on Windows and I really do not have the time or inclination to learn Linux or play with all the different flavours. I have an aversion to Apple and mac o/s - see comment on crucial programs, and somebody once telling me that no one could hack mac o/s. (maybe true, but, I don't believe it)
I had to go through at least 3 pop-ups telling me edge is the best thing on the planet, more saying that Cortana is my fantasy female, that office is a good tool to use and goodness only knows what else. Everything seems geared to me paying a revenue flow to Redmond, which just makes me remember why I hate jumped up acc*ntants and bean counters trying to massage profits through areas of marketing they know little about, but can see $ and £ signs flashing in front of their eyes while potential bonuses flood into their respective bank accounts before they piss off somewhere else to wash and rinse the process, and the company collapses because nobody will now buy any product from them. .
"Most of my crucial programs work on Windows and I really do not have the time or inclination to learn Linux or play with all the different flavours. I have an aversion to Apple and mac o/s"
I'm sorry to say, but you've got to bite the bullet on this. There no longer is a version of Windows that works and is supported and is suitable for use as your main OS. If you have programs that you rely on that work in Win 7 (or whichever flavour) then the only way I've found to get reliable performance is to run them in a VM.
At that point, running linux or a Mac as the main OS is a much better bet. You've got to learn a "new" OS anyway, so move to a saner environment. VM windows is actually quite pleasant to work with, since it doesn't have to do any of that awkward dealing with hardware stuff, and can be rebooted pretty quick whenever it needs a wee kicking.
Personally I prefer a Mac to linux box, if only because it's possible to find someone to fix it if I don't have the time myself. Linux techs tend to be either crap and cheap, or good and very expensive. Mac techs can often be found in the mid range.
The main problem with Apple kit is a) the fanbois and b) people who assume you are a fanboi for owning one. I'm fairly company agnostic, so I find it interesting what reasons people come up with to justify hating Apple, especially when it's clear they haven't touched a Mac for a few decades. Apple also appears to have stolen a lot of MS techs girlfriend's, run over their dogs and TP their house based on the hate it gets :)
I have SOOOO tried to like Win10.
Honestly, I have.
But I cant. I mean, its just shit. Nothing is where it *should* be. The "start menu" is a huge oxymoron.
Even the guy who writes "Classic Shell" has pulled out because of the fuckwits at MS changing stuff for the sake of it.
No, I'm sorry MS. You failed. You failed to listen to your customers, you failed to act on feedback, you just failed. AGAIN...
What is the saying about not learning from your mistakes, only to be doomed to make them again??
"If the software is free then how can you complain when it forces you to use it's own browser rather another free browser?"
I'm in two minds about whether they should be doing this, but Win10 isn't free. You either buy it as a retail package or pay for it inclusive of your new PC cost, or paid for Win7 which was "upgraded" with no additional fee (but you had to have a valid Win 7 install, which was not free).
If the software is free then how can you complain when it forces you to use it's own browser rather another free browser?
Well, it wasn't free, as someone else has already explained. Even if it was free, though, that has nothing to do with its suitability as an operating system. An OS needs to serve the user, and how it serves that user is also up to the user. If it fails that, it's not fit for purpose, even for free.
Still not free. True, you aren't paying cash money -- but you are paying in other ways. Windows 10 is expensive.
I object to the notion that just because you aren't paying for something with money then you aren't paying for it. If it's costing you something (even if that something isn't money), then it isn't "free".
But they're complete lack of keyboard hotkeys in menus - I'm not talking things like ctrl+s to save but access keys like being able to right click and press "s" (for example) to save an image. Usually signified by underline in the menu item text, tho that visual has been set to off by default since a while back.
Microsucks has compromised security and productivity world wide with their defective OSs and software yet they have never been held accountable. Instead they reap fortunes from selling defective goods. It's outrageous and unacceptable. Now they want to force people to use Win10 and Edge.
Maybe if Mail worked, this would be an issue.
I spent the whole afternoon yesterday trying to make my sister's Windows 10 to send email using Mail, through my hMailServer, via SSL. IMAP works, but SMTP doesn't - without returning any error - albeit the error reporting in Mail is so luser-oriented it would not be much useful.
Looking at traffic with Wireshark, it does begin the SSL handshake, but then Mail sends an RST. On the server side, the server complains about a "short read" - so something must be wrong in the data. No problems using Thunderbird, Windows Live Mail, Windows 8 Mail and RoundCube with the same server, using the same settings. The fact they dumbed down the client configuration doesn't help either.
Just my sister likes the mail notifications it gets from Mail - and Thunderbird UI would need a good redesign.
It looks not so few people have issues using servers which aren't outlook.com or gmail. The best answer found so far is in this thread: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/apps_windows_10-outlook_mail-winpc/windows-10-mail-app-email-stuck-in-outbox/5574d879-0d0d-4cb5-888f-48b3358236a9, look for "EdwinSleepDoc".
And you wonder why - it's a matter of setting user, password, and server/port.
Just, the GUI attempts to hide server settings, as if they could scare children, and if it's "synchonizing" you can't access them. Evidently, whoever wrote it doesn't know how to stop a running thread, and restart its operations. Then it uses non standard settings, like the added :n after the server port, which is barely documented. Its certificate management is appalling too - especially since it can't tell you what "problems" it has with a certificate, nor show the certificate to check it - so you can accept it blindly only.
I don't know what intern was tasked to write it, but it's a good example about how an application should not be developed. And they want to cage people into Windows S so you can only install this crap from the store?
I have turned off windows update (I wait until the dust has settled on all "new" updates before turning it back on for an hour). But this communist ideology inspired concept of shoving the overlords ideas down our throats is fast becoming the last straw. I am seriously considering keeping two "sneakernet" pcs off the internet to run those windows programs I cannot do without and running a Linux variant for internet only. And I started with Windows 3.0!.......well done microsoft!
I must be getting old, as I can remember when the OS just sat unobtrusively in the background and got on with running stuff.
Those were the days when if the program* you were developing didn't work, you had generally messed something up yourself, rather than been undermined by some apparently unrelated overnight update.
* Not "app", "widget" or whatever
Start menu searches seem to be fed to bing via edge browser, despite neither of these being my default settings.
Perhaps it time to wake the EU up again that Microsoft are playing product tying games again. If I were playing Microsoft bingo, I would have pretty much a full house.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-competitive_practices#types
So Microsoft want to pay the EU more money for forcing people to use their crappy browser.
they were fined $732 million in 2013 for failing to comply with the earlier enforcement action
or do they hope the EU have other issues at the moment and wont notice.
Ill just keep using Outlook with its own mail hadling failings (IMAP support is shit) but just waiting until Outlook gets "improvement updates" to default to Edge as well after they feel the water with the consumer products. luckily its on premis rather than 365 so I can block the updates.
"in 2017 found Windows Live Mail had one per cent market share"
What has this to do with the Mail app in W10?
WLM has been abandonware for years now and difficult to get hold of. I haven't spent much time on trying it out on W10 (upgrade from W8.1) but it didn't seem happy.
Still running it under W7 and W8.1 because it reminds me of Outlook Express and I like the user interface.
Thunderbird is my emailer of choice on socially supported W10 systems for friends.
If you are really getting annoyed with Windows 10, put the past behind you and actually give the Mac a fair chance (If the software you need can run on it). If Windows 10 is that bad pay the premium not to use it.
MacOS is actually awesome to use once you get use to it, with my only gripe being the file manager could do with a major overall.
Only way Microsoft will listen is if you hit them where it hurts, them losing usage share. I use to be an Apple hater but i really do find MacOS a better product to use than Windows now, and the trackpads on these Macbooks are beyond awesome. just wish i had given them chance earlier.
Up to 16 Virtual desktops, high DPI scaling that works, apps remembering which monitor they were open on when i plug my external display in, very little nag, a control panel that makes sense, texting and calling of my Mac integrated with my iPhone, and the gestures on the trackpad to name but a few things i really like.
The Windows need not be Win 10, and might not even be licensed.
Essentially, your Windows partition is like a 'dedicated' Windows games emulator for your Mac. All your web browsing, productivity etc happens on OSX.
And for modern games, Steam on Mac takes care of that.
I get what you mean. I love legacy games too, and some weren't ported to OSX.
If you believe in the free market, then vote with your feet. Use another product, even if it hurts you, and encourage others to do the same. The justification is the long term : escaping lock-in is always cheaper. Monopoly is anathema and not sustainable.
Eventually the original vendor will follow you, or another vendor will sell what you want. That's how the market works. It might not be easy, but it's the long-term view.
"That's how the market works. It might not be easy, but it's the long-term view."
But the market never really works that way. There are always distortions because humans are driven by emotion first, logic second (just observe any catastrophe). Put it this way. Why isn't the market moving as quickly as it should in response to monopoly actions? Where are all the Linux ports and so on?
The number of Windows to OSX converts would skyrocket.
If you're already stuck in the Windows 10 quagmire (such as yours truly), minimize your exposure to Microsoft's products and services. That means not using Microsoft's browsers, Bing, Onedrive, Outlook (Hotmail), Skype, Office 365.
And use a local account, not a Microsoft account. Avoid the Microsoft app store.
Anyhow, the schism between Macs and Windows PCs has been mostly resolved long ago, when Macs switched from PowerPC chips to Intel chips.
A Mac is something I will seriously consider in future. The major bugbear would be gaming, but most modern games are crappy products that fleece you through microtransactions. The games I really love to play are the ones from 1980s to mid-2000s, with a few strategy games published this decade. A Windows partition could take care of this problem. Steam on Mac takes care of most modern games.
Have you tried DOSBox? I've managed to get the 3dfx version of Carmageddon to work on it via a Flide-ti-OpenGL emulation layer. Now, if they can find a way to get the S3 ViRGE version of Terminal Velocity to work...
'MacOS is actually awesome to use once you get use to it, with my only gripe being the file manager could do with a major overall.'
MacOS is generally unusable if you want to do real work other than tweaking content or media files. The interface does not provide easy access to essential capabilities, while being totally counter-intuitive unless you are already an inmate of the walled garden.
Apple's hubris in rewriting standard functionality, with insufficient QA - like TLS - has resulted in breaking security and capabilities more than once or twice. You would think that they could get moving a file right, but clearly that's not guaranteed either.
The way MacOS returns data is not useful for certain types of 'industrial strength' administration of systems and networks.
Security fixes are generally not backported, so you have to keep 'leaping off a cliff' and hoping that no critical functions or applications will fail with the new release.
MacOS is like a voluntarily worn straitjacket - if you don't want to use your arms, it's probably just fine.
"And of course the change also applies to a Preview, meaning there’s a decent chance this “feature” won’t ever make it into a proper version of Windows 10."
At the end of an article that says
"Windows 10 to force you to use Edge, even if it isn’t default browser"
If there is a decent chance it won't ever make it then the title is wrong. It the title is right then the paragraph at the end is pointless. Poor writing or just clickbaity rubbish - you decide.
As soon as I can install PrivacyBadger in Edge, I'll give Edge a whirl.
Until then, I won't.
P.S. Spent most of yesterday afternoon fannying about trying to get Skype to work - the minimalist error message I kept getting was "Skype can't connect". Great. WTF does that mean in practice?
"UBlock Origin and AdBlock Plus work in Edge. Edge is also faster and less resource hungry than Chrome so it's worth a go."
Yep - exactly what I have found. I only use other browsers for testing now and have totally switched to Edge. I have found it faster and more stable than both Chrome and Firefox. Brave (I use it on my phone and tablet) kept crashing - no idea why...
In my view, Microsoft has put itself in a position of getting feedback from an echo chamber. So the feedback is entirely worthless.
The preview releases of Windows 10 seem to consistently offer "improvements" in features I would never use or even look at.
Cortana, Edge, Windows Apps. Nothing actually relevant to my use of a PC.
So I stopped bothering to bother with preview releases. They have no real-world relevance to me.
Unless I'm alone in that, this means that the feedback they get will be from the people who think these stupid ideas are relevant and interesting. Microsoft will get a distorted view of public perception.
Try office 365 in firefox, it works so bad, that one is forced to use MS Edgeploder in order to use it.
So much for "freedom in browser choice". Let hope the EU commission reads this, so they again can fine them for a few millions.
Nothing new here, Office365 already has screen issues with firefox
Try office 365 in firefox, it works so bad, that one is forced to use MS Edgeploder in order to use it.
So much for "freedom in browser choice". Let hope the EU commission reads this, so they again can fine them for a few millions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You know this is the universe telling you it's time to switch to LibreOffice, and reclaim some control and security, don't you?
Even today they're desperate to get people to use Edge.
I set up a new laptop yesterday, installing Firefox as one of the first acts. When I went to switch the default browser to Firefox in the settings, a popup appeared asking if I really wanted to not use Edge because it was great. No it isn't. It's kind of shit actually.
The EU really needs to kick Microsoft hard in the balls, or enormous fines (whichever is legally permissible) until they get the message and stop interfering with people's choice of browser.
I have given up on Windows 10, cant say I didnt try it. TBH I like Windows 10 but only on machines that do simple tasks.
I have just re-installed Windows 7 on my music production lappy as the latest Windows 10 killed the ASIO Drivers and made the machine unusable. This was only after 1 week! 1 week it worked for then died!
Just finished an official Microsoft training course, hosted by an official MS training partner. Aside from the course being so out of date, that a solid third of it was unusable due to a UI change, the real joke was that the Edge browser wouldn't display half of the pages in the Office 365 console. The trainer told us all to use either Chrome or Firefox. I saw the same behavior when I ran an office 365 trial some 3 years ago. And it still isn't fixed, despite it being all over the MS forums for years.
This sounds just like MS recently.... We'll force you to manage our cloud platform with OUR browser, regardless of whether it works or not...
So what else is new...? Last time I checked, all these years "start index.html" launched good ole' Internet Explorer under windows, regardless of what was nominally your system default browser or what html was normally getting opened with everywhere else in your system - so most software that had any embedded links to local html was opening that way if you were foolish enough to click on anything (or just press "F1")...
"Didn't the EU try to get them to remove IE but their defense was it was part of Explorer and therefore integral to the OS?"
Yes. They integrated IE with the OS to prevent people from removing it in favour of Netscape.
This had the handy side effect of making any security flaw in IE a security flaw in the OS, and media files and players integrated with IE made a flaw in the media player a flaw in the OS.
Great work, because it let them crush Netscape... and we have been paying for that ever since.
'I like it, it's a simple mail app that can put together my multiple inboxes.
Now I have to find something else.'
Thunderbird. Good multiple account support, lots of options, full set of features, reliable, extensible, will handle inboxes with >50K messages easily.
After using Windows 10 (Home*) for 1 year now I've come to the conclusion that Windows 10 is only good for games. For normal desktop usage its no good with its update problems and other issues.
This is not improving that bug ratio. Soon as I can afford a new PC I am moving my desktop activity back to Gentoo Linux.
*Home isn't useful for games. I have to get Windows 10 Professional to have a useable operating system for games that are for Windows 10.
Problem is they will get 97% positive feedback from said hand full of users and hence roll out this behaviour in many other places.
The constant switch back to edge as default browser after each major update is already an irritation - I don't look forward to regedits just to stop this happening elsewhere.
Yes I do use linux (on my HTPC) but my main machine is used for gaming and the intel chip and intel raid only play nicely with windows (e.g. TurboBoost 3.0 is Windows only) .
All it will do is kill off the Windows mail app as there will be another reason not to use it. Microsoft edge us not the fastest or most secure browser and is just a re-written internet explorer which is one of the worst browsers ever. Edge is a bit better than internet explorer but it still is just annoying to use.
...but this time instead of "Deposition by Bill Gates" we'll be seeing "Deposition by Satya Nadella"
I remember those times when the rumour was, once MS lost, Microsoft was going to be forced to break up. Although that never happened.
The EU will hit MS with a MASSIVE hammer over this. Satya seems to be ignoring history.
"Microsoft has lost so much market share that it can't be treated as a monopoly any more."
? Microsoft still have the same high 80s percent of desktop market share the have had for years and their server and office software market share is increasing. They also overtook AWS in cloud revenue 2 quarters ago and are growing faster.
"Microsoft has lost so much market share that it can't be treated as a monopoly any more."
That's only true in the mobile space. On the desktop, Microsoft is every bit the monopoly they've always been. Remember, in the US it's not illegal to be a monopoly -- it's only illegal to abuse your monopoly position. That's the case that would have to be made.
Well, without resorting to a blue streak extending from here to North Dakota: I think it is yet another reason not to use windows 10.
You'd think Micors~1 would have learned by now. But since these decisions are being made by ADHD-addled Millennials who have nothing but contempt for anything historical that happened before they were born, this is predictable. Sad.
Well, actually, I was part of the "duck'n'roll" generation...you know, the one that was told from basically Day 1 that Khrushchev was going to bury us with his shoe, and that wet newspaper and school desks would protect us from fallout of most every kind. All that Commie Pinko stuff happened very much before I was born, yet it rather did have an effect on how I grew up, and how I and millions like me responded to that little dust-up in SE Asia.
Of course you, Mr. Jeffery W. Millennial, have absolutely no idea of what I am talking about, and I know you bloody well don't care either.
So get your pampered, expectant, doomed-to-repeat-history ass off my lawn, dammit!
Yeah, but, all that commie cold war nuclear paranoia was pretty significant stuff. Caring about the browser wars isn't quite on the same scale and one could make allowances for not remembering that.
And oh, if only I was a millennial and my back didn't have this middle aged ache. I wasn't a boomer and I'm not a millennial. What the hell am I in between all these significant generations? Generation X? I must be the blank generation.
I was forced to the edge of sanity supporting windows over the past 25 or so years. I learned a great deal fixing MS stuff. And fixing Windows brought me a good income.
Now I don't have to support Windows at all, my training wheels have gone ;-) and I admin Linux servers and code websites. It is far less frustrating, much more fun, far more reliable and much more rewarding.
I feel like a passenger using MS products. I feel like a driver using Linux.
MS want me to use Edge? They would have to force me to use Win 10 first!
I'm starting my new range of WA (Windows Anonymous, Slogan WAH) coins based on the idea of AA coins. "Hello, I'm Adnim and I have been windowless for 30 days."
Only $50 for a six month coin, $40 for a year coin. They have an angry Linus face on one side and a cute penguin on the flip. Get yours now. Everyone who is anyone will want one. www.MicrosoftSucks.coma
<Rapacious_Entrepreneurial_Face_Emoji>
I was forced to buy a laptop with windows 10 on it more than a year ago. Six months before that, I went with a friend (hard core high level QA expert) to buy him a laptop.
We got the 'computer expert' on duty at the large tech / electronics / computer store. He was puzzled when we told him that there would be no sale unless the laptop successfully booted the live Linux CD we had with us... so we explained why Windows 10 was not and never would be acceptable to anyone who wanted privacy, security, and control over their own computer.
Like most sensible people, he found the Windows 10 license agreement - which he had never read - both offensive and scary. By the time we finished explaining, he wanted to leave work early to take Windows 10 off his own computer.
Obviously, both of us took our respective machines home and installed Linux... in my case with two boot partitions for two different versions of Linux. My 'windows 10' laptop never actually booted into Windows.
user here.
Well actually thats a lie, I use a windows 7 machine for games and random browsing via firefox.
The real machine for on-line stuff of all sorts is the Mint powered laptop next to me... anything (including steam) needs a credit card.. then that machine is used.
And after experiences with win 10 at work......
Which is a shame really, because if only m$ had said "Lets have the updated win 10 kernel/groundwork, then add a window manager that people can customise.. so that the phone type uber nerds can have tiles everywhere and a connection to the m$ app store, and the professional guys and gals(like me) can stick with a good old fashioned windows 7 type desktop."
Add in the update thing so that users can pick a time/date for updates instead of ramming them down their throats when they want to be using their computers for things like... say work
And M$ could have been onto a winner like Xp/win 7 were. but no.
My next machine will have win 10 on it for gaming only .. but any serious work will be done on linux, where its reasonably secure... and away from any chance of being slurped by m$
I tried posting a web link to ViruTotal results in a comment on another thread but the URL was too long and kept getting cut off.
I created a shortened URL using the first URL shortening service that popped up which happened to be Googles URL shortener.
Apparently Google's URL shortener has an "analytic" function which shows the browsers used by anyone that viewed my shortened link to VirusTotal and it appears that the majority of El Reg users use Windows computers running Chrome browsers.
(Of course it was a very small sample of users and maybe only Windows users running Chrome blindly click on shortened links?)
https://goo.gl/?authed=1#analytics/goo.gl/w38UBr/all_time
"(Of course it was a very small sample of users and maybe only Windows users running Chrome blindly click on shortened links?)"
Or maybe a lot of people browse from work and Chrome or sometimes Firefox is the best option they have, and if the machine is infected someone else has to fix it?
My policy is to not click on shortened url's - you've outlined one "feature" that is problematic, but nothing compared to where that link might be pointing. Yes, there is a way to uncloak the "real" link, but if it's something of casual interest only then I'm not going to bother.
is the internet !!
Not just an indulgent name of a street in Redmond Washington, USA
I wasted $50 downloading 4.3 GB DVD Win of 8.1 when my O/S refused to boot using any method.
With the new Windows 8.1 installed, it perpetually caused (in some ever changing random order) my other NTFS partitions of RESTORE OR PBR or even the MAIN partition itself to be dirty or somehow damaged, 'whenever' I tried accessing it with Linux, regardless of the fact that the DVD WinRE checked the partitions and gave them a good bill of health prior to the re-installation. I can't help seeing it as further deliberate bullshit.
I have given up my commercial windows supported software, that I depended on and migrated to Linux. at a loss so far, but the $$ and hours spent with Windows have mounted to make it preventative
So the Edge is just a browser, not an advantage of using Microsoft Windows.
NO Way Microsoft.
I have 1 system with WIN10 PRO installed and it is a test system to allow me to follow WIN10 and help those who request help form me.
That's what *my* MSWin 10 systems had been. I'd run MWS10 Tech Preview on some scrap laptop so I could see what nonsense was coming down the road.
Only thing is, I've had TWO different laptops I've used for the MSWin Tech Preview, and BOTH have failed to the point they won't even power on anymore. Kinda tells you something right there.
I just had to install Windows 10 from scratch on a Lidl tablet for my mum, Took me two days on a fast internet connection, Effing insulting. Forced me to create a disposable outlook account, and then whined when I didn't want Edge as the default browser? It used to be bimbo~ware, now it is Putin~ware. I feel dirty.
From a balanced viewpoint the real problem with Edge being defaulted to for some purposes is that the Standards that were originally set up within the Windows framework (which were presumably specified by Microsoft), are being violated... by Microsoft. Is this Edge default hardwired-in to an application? If so, it shouldn't be, it's inefficient and: looking ahead - when Microsoft decide to ditch Edge, where will those hardwired links then point to? Because presumably they are not Registry-based, they will point nowhere.
I've been using edge and there's no denying it is by far the fastest browser out there. With its stripped down nature I can also imagine why it would currently be the most secure, as it lacks some functionality compared to it's competitors. I really don't get this move though and I'm sure they'll get a ton of backlash from it.
I'm annoyed by all the anti-IE and Edge memes I've been seeing, as most of them are complete bullshit, but I'm certainly not in favor of MS shoving their desired product down my throat either.
Have read through fairly quickly, so might have missed it, but I haven't seen any mention of Silverlight!
Yes - that really is a reason we keep getting people calling and saying "Please install Silverlight because I need it for <crappy website>". They get nowhere trying to open the site in Edge.
The second most common issue is that people find PDFs opening in Edge. Mostly they prefer Acrobat Reader DC or whatever other tools they have installed.
The third is that they do not have necessary print options when printing from Edge.
The fourth is using Remote Desktop (or has that recently changed?) which has always needed IE to work easily and reliably.
And my hate, unable to use it in a domain admin account. It isn't that I want to use it, but I have to positively change defaults in order to avoid things trying to open in Edge.
Finally, the fact that time after time, portal.office.com (yes, the 365 portal) fails to open pages time after time. The tab just stays blank and requires one or more F5/refreshes before it will appear. Works far better in FireFox.
Really not entirely sure this is quite as big a deal as portrayed, odious as it may be.
Does anyone actually use Mail outside the kind of tablet-based environment that is locked down to Microsoft Store apps anyway? In that context, Edge (and wrappers thereof) is the mandated browser in any case. I suspect that the number of people who this adversely affects on a proper desktop environment with a choice of superior alternatives in the first place, is practically irrelevant.
Truely don't understand all this anti-MS feeling. I have been with MS since XP days, upgraded to W7 (missed Vista) and then W10 (missed W8). Everything just continues to work. I have Office 2007 for my spreadsheets and word files (keeps working year in, year out). Thumbsplus for my photos, VLC for my videos, IE for internet (started with IE6, now on IE11). Never had a problem. HOSTS file block adverts etc - always has done, still continues to do so. Use Allway Sync to backup my files, Audacity, Freemake (old free version), Adobe Audition (old version). Never had to upgrade anything. Just goes on and on. Now on W10 1709 not had to pay anything for years (last time was when I bought my W7 PC and I assume I paid an OS licence then). I love MS - just can''t work out how they make any money. They've certainly not had much from me over the last 15 years. Oh and yes, had years and years of free Hotmail. Feel as though I should make a donation to MS as a 'thank you' but don't know how.
Let's face it this is just a metrics game to show investors that Microsoft has an "Edge" on competitors. By forcing things this way it will definitely increase the MS Edge usage statistics. And anyone who has ever had to deal with the less technically competent knows that these users don't even know when they are in Firefox, Chrome or IE/Edge. These people, lets face it are the masses and they will skew the metrics.
MS has to indefinitely show growth otherwise why would someone buy MS stocks in the first place, investors need a return. Like pretty much the majority of the tech industry they have run out of legitimate ways of improving efficiency and profit margins. Now that they have run out tangible ways to show growth they are now resorting to playing these sneaky stats tricks to fool investors into believing that after almost 3 years of no uptake that users all of the sudden are throwing away their fav browser for this super over the top better than the rest browser call Edge.
I think you've nailed the point. So many users thinks it's just " the internet" and are barely, if at all, aware that they use a browser. To users the browser is no more than a frame round the outside of the Amazon page (or the office intranet). These are the same people that we've quoted here, so many times, who call us because "The email isn't working" ( BSOD) and call the thing with pictures "the computer" and the box that does the computing "the hard drive".
Hobbyhorse moment coming......
All those people who complained that ICT in schools was rubbish, because it just showed kids how to use WORD and they needed to be taught to code were far off the mark IMO. ICT needed to teach kids how computers worked, what they could do, how they did it (including how to use OFFICE/Windows/LINUX etc.) and what the implications are for how we live our lives. Actually writing code should be a small, but interesting, part. Knowing what happens to your data is far more essential.
Finally, a useful addition to your operating system
Unless I misread, that is :-)
Cant think why folk are so pissed about having no choice of software
Keep up the good work
Obviously you cant please all the people all the time
Furious rants about things you do will always appear
Find time to LISTEN to folk and life will be easier for all
So, Windows sets Edge as the default browser? Problem is that Edge stopped working a few weeks back (may have been earlier, hard to tell if you don't use it), it opens, does that spinny thing then closes - blink and you miss it.
And its not just me, I have tried to run Edge on 3 different completely different Win10 boxes with the same result and everyone I have spoken to about it has had the same experience.
So now we have an OS that won't let you use t'internet. Great! Is it 1980 again?
20 years ago they lost an antitrust lawsuit because they did this exact same thing to try and kill off competitors to internet explorer, i personally do not want to use either Microsoft Edge or Google Chrome as i am a Firefox user.
Microsoft just doesn't seem to learn from mistakes, if you don't want Microsoft Edge on your system you should be allowed to remove it i can remove Google Chrome so why not Microsoft Edge (if it's not something you use it's like Microsoft is saying if you install Windows on your PC we will install bloatware along with it).
Okay, it CAN be removed but only by going through some things that your average user wouldn't know how to do and even then you would need to be very confident about it.
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