UK.gov admits porn age checks could harm small ISPs and encourage risky online behaviour

Enforcing age verification checks for online porn sites could be detrimental to smaller ISPs and significantly increase online fraud, the government has admitted. The measures, which are due to come into force in May, will require UK residents to prove they are 18 or over in order to get access to porn sites. The plans have …

[Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where's My Thribble?]

Fine, I'll start my own DNS provider. With BlackJack! And Hookers! In fact, forget the DNS provider and the BlackJack!

Aah, screw the whole thing.

*Wanders away dejectedly*

[Dan 55]

Unless the law is horribly prescriptive and specifies that the ISP must use a transparent proxy for DNS so there's no getting out of it unless you use a VPN, a small ISP could provide a DNS server which blocks the government-designated naughty websites, everyone could set their own DNS server anyway, and life would go on.

[Charles 9]

Not necessarily. It's not too hard for a choke point like an ISP to hijack all port 53 traffic wholesale. Many ISPS do, meaning you can't choose your own DNS in the normal way.

[Dan 55]

Yes, but why would a small ISP go the extra mile if they're not compelled to by law?

[Mark 85]

Yes, but why would a small ISP go the extra mile if they're not compelled to by law?

Profit would be a great drive. Maybe run some "special" servers for extra money. The big ones get watched too closely so a little one might have a better chance of getting away with it.

[Peter2]

So people will be doing a VPN to the usa for DNS traffic? How long before somebody sets up DNS over SSL?

[scotta01]

DNS over TLS

There's already an RFC for DNS over TLS, so give it time.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7858

[Charles 9]

Re: DNS over TLS

"There's already an RFC for DNS over TLS, so give it time."

How would that help against an ISP who hijacks the DNS port wholesale (and would likely get a valid TLS certificate)?

[Paul Hovnanian]

Re: DNS over TLS

"ISP who hijacks the DNS port wholesale"

You run a local DNS daemon on your own system and direct clients to use it (resolve.conf set to localhost). The local daemon forwards DNS requests out through a secure connection to an external service that uses something other than the standard port.

Anyway, that's the basic theory. I'd have to get my kid's help to actually set it up.

[JimboSmith]

I demonstrated to a friend who was convinced that technology would protect her children from porn that she was wrong. I showed her what happened if you visited a pr0n site on my phone it came up with the mobile network adult block. I then showed her a website showing pr0n on my phone and said it doesn't seem to work on everything does it?

To say she was shocked is an understatement.

[goldcd]

Or just let the government build their own DNS server.

Point new customers to it by default - but maybe include their original DNS server in a FAQ.

[Anonymous Coward]

"blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

Erm, did someone miss the word "million" out of that? Or have the government not been looking very hard for porn sites?

[Halfmad]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

Looking at the action the government is taking I feel like I can say with some certainty that they haven't got a bloody clue what they are doing and this is entirely to grab headlines and allow them to say at their party conference that they are "thinking of the children"

Sadly that last line is probably a little too close to the bone for many of the older party members..

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"Sadly that last line is probably a little too close to the bone for many of the older party members."

It has long seemed apparent that those who vociferously campaign against "pr0n" are those whose minds see sex in everything. St Jerome et al have a lot to answer for in conditioning people's thinking even in these supposedly enlightened times.

David Frost once did a satirical sketch where he interviewed a supposed Mary Whitehouse type campaigner. The man said he could identify "filthy" TV programmes just from their titles. He declared the "filthiest" programme to be - "Blue Peter"***.

***a wholesome children's programme famous for making things like Christmas decorations out of wire coat hangers and plastic bottles. A "Blue Peter" is the signal flag a ship hoists when it is about to set sail. "Peter" is an old euphemism for a penis.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"It has long seemed apparent that those who vociferously campaign against "pr0n" are those whose minds see sex in everything."

Reminds me of the classic 'Not the Nine O'clock News' sketch where Rowan Atkinson describes London's skyline in similar terms:

- It is not Nelson's column, it is Nelson's Willy thrusting into the sky!

- It is not St. Paul's dome, it is an enormous titty!

[JimboSmith]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

Looking at the action the government is taking I feel like I can say with some certainty that they haven't got a bloody clue what they are doing and this is entirely to grab headlines and allow them to say at their party conference that they are "thinking of the children"

Dailly Mail politics take a subject that the DM have got their readers in a froth about. Introduce a law where you ban or encourage or restrict whatever the DM don't like/like. Get more votes as a result. Doesn't matter if the whole thing is dumb and unworkable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

Daily Mail politics take a subject that the DM have got their readers in a froth about. Introduce a law where you ban or encourage or restrict whatever the DM don't like/like. Get more votes as a result. Doesn't matter if the whole thing is dumb and unworkable.

That's how "The Will Of The People" works, isn't it?

[Simon Harris]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"Daily Mail"

Daily Mail readers don't need porn sites - they have the sidebar of shame.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"Doesn't matter if the whole thing is dumb and unworkable."

even better if it's dumb & unworkable, the Mail can then spew page after page about how bad the system is?

[P. Lee]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

>Doesn't matter if the whole thing is dumb and unworkable.

Sadly I think the scheme is workable. As in, the plan is to turn the internet into a government-managed network.

It isn't hard to filter out all the video and audio providers and isp dns servers and then dpi remaining Udp for dns. I suspect those 30gbit nics with fpga's would be useful. You can do the dpi offline and once you've found the service, add in a redirect in an upstream isp network. Or don't do a redirect, just tag the source IP for "special attention."

Until we start building wholesale encrypted networks and/or manage to demand the removal of such features, the government control creep will continue.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"Sadly that last line is probably a little too close to the bone for many of the older party members.."

Well played sir! An exuberance of double entendres!

[John Colman]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

I think Damian Green has been doing some research into this

[katrinab]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"I think Damian Green has been doing some research into this"

And also Toby Young - http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/10th-november-2001/34/confessions-of-a-porn-addict

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

They have to start from scratch, Damian Green took the list with him...

[Mark 85]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

"blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

Erm, did someone miss the word "million" out of that? Or have the government not been looking very hard for porn sites?

Those in charge of this will obviously leave their favorite sites alone since they will need access for "research purposes".

[Loud Speaker]

Re: "blocking ... between 1 and 50 sites a year"

What we have here is an example of "Dimocracy" government by the dim, of the dim, for the dim!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well well, the corruption does on and up

No this is a normal Gov tactic.

Distortion of the truth so that "The Minister(s)" makes the decision that Sir Humphrey wanted in the fist place.

Lets face it the Home Sec doesnt understand why encryption is important to computer security, in fact she thinks they are opposites, and given her wishes she would feck all and every online transaction.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's continue wondering down this slippery slope

Another grab at control of the internet, it looks clumsy and we laugh at how ineffective it will be, but it has dark intentions as is usually the case with the 'Won't someone think of the children' knee jerk policies.

[chris121254]

Re: Let's continue wondering down this slippery slope

And in the end they will never grab control of the internet.

[Nick Kew]

Re: Let's continue wondering down this slippery slope

... all because Andrews&Arnold continue to opt out of the Great Firewall that once blocked wikipedia.

[John Smith 19]

"Another grab at control of the internet, but it has dark intentions as is usually the case "

Correct.

This is bu***r all to do with TOTC but everything to do with ciminalizing web access

More handiwork from Claire Perry I presume. A Conservative backbencher who couldn't set her browser, so wanted a law to require mandatory filtering.

And it seem she now has one. At the time she thought all those online gambling sites could be re-purposed for this task, as they'd like the revenue and they are completely trustworthy.

Beware of anyone offering "simple" solutions to very complex problems.

[Tom 35]

Re: Let's continue wondering down this slippery slope

Not all the ISPs have a system to block stuff we don't like, we just need to add all the other stuff we don't like. Maybe add the stuff other people like too.

[Anonymous Coward]

"[...] perhaps it's not surprising that the government also lists as a potential risk that people simply stop using online porn at all. But, hey, perhaps that's what the government wants..."

Except for MPs - especially ministers and their spouses of course.

[Flocke Kroes]

Prime minister's progress report for next year

"Thanks to our crack down on porn we have successfully pushed thousands of perverts and paedophiles off the internet. If they need to empty their sack, they will all just have to go back to school where they belong."

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: perhaps that's what the government wants...

Well given than "the government" in the shape of the Number10gov official site and Theresa May in her own name plus of course Jeremy Corbyn and probably every one else in parliament regularly post to one of the worlds premier porn distribution sites, I'd say that the government positively support porn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: perhaps that's what the government wants...

They also appear regularly in the long running series Hans 'ard.

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll run this for 6 months then claim they can't do it and swap to a white list. The Great British Firewall is born.

Personally I think TV is much worse than pr0n.

[chris121254]

Unlikely a white list will work and they wont be able to put a Great British Firewall in place (they try to put one in place many times before but failed)

[Anonymous Coward]

At the other AC, re: sex on tv...

"I can't stand sex on the telly! ... ... ... I keep fallin' off!"

[Jedihomer Townend]

Fantastic... so how is this going to work with small sites... like Twitter and Tumblr etc. which have lots of porn on it?

Does the site need to be *only* about porn like *tube? Making this, yet again, another bit of legislation we didn't ask for, want or need?

[chris121254]

I hear they are going to leave sites like Twitter and Tumblr alone.

[Christoph]

They have history of this. The Internet Witch Hunt Watch Foundation once caused major problems on the entire Wikipedia site over a single photo.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this only going to apply to UK hosted pr0n sites or worldwide?

Define "pr0n" in that worldwide context. No doubt some MPs will be thinking along the lines of the USA school that sacked a teacher recently - for letting an 11 year olds art class see pictures of famous works of art that contained nudity.

Last year my neighbours' son's UK school set their 7 year olds a homework project to research sculpture. His parents asked for him to borrow a reference book on the history of the subject. It probably included pictures of ancient fertility figures, a "David", and various other famous sculptures.

[ratfox]

When I was 6, I received from the school an official reference textbook, whose very first illustration was full frontal nudity of a man and a woman.

Is UK generally more prude than the rest of Europe, or is it just a small fraction of vocal prudes pushing this through?

[Phil W]

"Is UK generally more prude than the rest of Europe"

Only in public, behind closed doors the British are the filthiest of all the Europeans, after all we've had centuries of stealing filthy ideas from everywhere else in the world that we've colonised and/or invaded.

[Dan 55]

All government policy is driven by the imperative of avoiding bad tabloid headlines. Bad tabloid headlines mean fewer votes in those all-important marginal constituencies. Many parents are unable to search for parental control software so something must be done by the government otherwise bad headlines will appear.

[John H Woods]

"All government policy is driven by the imperative of avoiding bad tabloid headlines."

Corollary: a small number of very wealthy people effectively control UK government policy.

Secondary Corollary: a large proportion of what is wrong with UK politics is due to the Daily Mail.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is UK generally more prude than the rest of Europe, or is it just a small fraction of vocal prudes pushing this through?"

An interesting question. In the 1970s we thought England was heading towards a Danish style attitude. Then after 1979 the Mary Whitehouse brigade again started to gain control of influential channels.

Under the 1997 Labour government there was a mixed message. Equality for LGBTQI lifestyles - but at the same time Political Correctness became a way to "no platform" anyone who didn't conform to certain approved lines. It was noticeable that the younger generation seemed more enlightened about some human rights - but at the same time expressed apparently unthinking intolerance in other areas.

The current twenty-somethings seem to acknowledge gender and sexual fluidity. Ideas with which they agree with many Baby Boomer grandparents who matured in the 1970s.

My Swedish friends have long complained that the USA's vitriolic criticism of Swedish sex education etc had forced their society into a generally more repressive attitude in recent years.

The same influences have undoubtedly affected UK policies. The drafting of the Sexual Offences Act (2003) preferred to take the USA as "best practice" - and ignored the better outcomes in many of our European neighbours. Should the Tory Party succumb to a leadership coup by its more conservative elements - then we can expect the political influence of USA Christian extremists*** to increase.

***as criticised by Pope Francis recently.

[onefang]

"Is UK generally more prude than the rest of Europe, or is it just a small fraction of vocal prudes pushing this through?"

Yes.

[Neil Brown]

From a legal perspective...

The requirement to have age-verification in place applies to any person who "makes pornographic material available on the internet to persons in the United Kingdom on a commercial basis other than in a way that secures that, at any given time, the material is not normally accessible by persons under the age of 18." (s14(1) DEA 2017)

It does not matter whether that person is based in the UK or elsewhere.

An ISP can be compelled by an administrative (non-judicial) blocking order to take the steps either specified in the blocking notice, or else as "appear to the provider to be appropriate", to "prevent persons in the United Kingdom from being able to access the offending material using the service it provides". (s23(1))

The legislation expressly permits overblocking: "The steps that may be specified or arrangements that may be put in place ... include steps or arrangements that will or may also have the effect of preventing persons in the United Kingdom from being able to access material other than the offending material using the service provided by the internet service provider." (s23(3))

"Pornographic material" is defined in s15. It's too long for me to paste here, but it covers quite a lot, with an emphasis on material which was "produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal". And, since different people like different things, that potentially covers quite a lot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"And, since different people like different things, that potentially covers quite a lot."

It seems fairly draconian. Another "catch-all" law allowing "mission creep" by the enforcement authorities. As it emphasises "commercial" then presumably "amateur" or "free" sites are exempt - or are they just banned full stop?

Presumably shoe and leather trouser fetishes that give some people dopamine rushes will be specifically exempt.

[Phil W]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"makes pornographic material available on the internet to persons in the United Kingdom on a commercial basis"

Does that mean free porn sites are unaffected? If so that's an awful lot porn sites that the legislation wouldn't apply to.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"Does that mean free porn sites are unaffected? "

I would suspect that any site which attracts advertising revenues would be considered "commercial".

[Cuddles]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"I would suspect that any site which attracts advertising revenues would be considered "commercial"."

So we're OK if we use adblock then?

[Neil Brown]

Re: From a legal perspective...

It depends.

A site can be made available “on a commercial basis” while still not being chargeable to visitors. For example, if the site derives income from advertising, or if it exists to drive traffic to paid sites.

There are draft regulations on what “on a commercial basis” means, here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/600735/Draft_Online_Pornography_Commercial_Basis_Regulations_2017.pdf

(This is consistent with other areas of law, such as intermediary liability rules.)

[Charles 9]

Re: From a legal perspective...

So, basically, ANY fanservice site is fair game. Even non-nude modeling sites can arouse (no more swimsuit sites, then--what about magazines?). And it explicitly permits collateral damage.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"Even non-nude modeling sites can arouse "

Well that should get the Daily Mail banned for its regular "all grown up" pictures of children.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From a legal perspective...

> Well that should get the Daily Mail banned for its regular "all grown up" pictures of children.

The DM's website frequently has more flesh on show than lots of porn sites. It's a simple truth that smut sells.

[Alan Edwards]

Re: From a legal perspective...

No, because it's not "produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal". The main purpose of a modelling site would be to sell modelling services, if you get your rocks off to it that's your business.

It would be a Rule 34(b) - if it exists, someone will be "into" it. Nothing would survive.

[Charles 9]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"No, because it's not "produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal". The main purpose of a modelling site would be to sell modelling services, if you get your rocks off to it that's your business."

If that were true, they could do that displaying more decent outfits and fewer of them. Plus, in many of the sites I'm noting, they don't leave a prominent "looking for models" page, or if they do, it's pretty small given most modeling agencies are limited to one, maybe two locations. It's easily open to interpretation, especially if a site shows ONLY swimsuits and/or lingerie and doesn't show a prominent "models wanted".

[Nick Kew]

Ban the Reg?

The Reg takes adverts. Who knows where some of them might one day lead?

And the reg has a bunch of commentards who sometimes post links. Like, maybe, one to my blog entry featuring seriously nasty porn (posted for an argument similar to this one).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From a legal perspective...

Surely this means that Youtube will also be blocked.

YESSSS!!!

[SteveK]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"Pornographic material" is defined in s15. It's too long for me to paste here, but it covers quite a lot, with an emphasis on material which was "produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal".

So material produced solely or principally for generating profit, by selling to those seeking arousal is not covered then?

[Mike Ozanne]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"on a commercial basis"

So free porn sites don't need to age verify??

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: From a legal perspective...

"Pornographic material" is defined in s15. It's too long for me to paste here, but it covers quite a lot, with an emphasis on material which was "produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal". And, since different people like different things, that potentially covers quite a lot.

I don't know about you but every time I see a politician I feel the need to get a BJ. Does this mean all sites dealing with politicians must be censored?

[Anonymous Coward]

Material produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal

Would Baywatch count?

[Charles 9]

Re: Material produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal

I wouldn't rule it out. Especially since most of the female cast DID pose nude at points.

[Muscleguy]

A replica of David stands in the public square in Florence. Which is a shame, it looks malformed because it was designed to look normal when viewed from some distance below as it was supposed to be mounted high up on the Duomo.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a famous Roman sculpture of their god Pan making merry with a slightly anthropomorphic female goat; I dare say this could be classified under religion, fine art, bestiality and (knowing the average lifespan of a goat) paedophilia.

I wonder how our new morality overlords would classify it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)

[JimboSmith]

Last year my neighbours' son's UK school set their 7 year olds a homework project to research sculpture. His parents asked for him to borrow a reference book on the history of the subject. It probably included pictures of ancient fertility figures, a "David", and various other famous sculptures.

I remember my university having an almost puritanical approach to the Internet. Basically anything that could potentially be smut was banned. Now this was a long time ago when dial up was king and there were far fewer sites on the net. I don't know how it worked, but basically If the site mentioned SEX or some such quite a lot it would be unaccessible. The only problem was that there were so many issues with it having false positives. The Sex Pistols was just one that caused difficulty especially for the popular music students. Restrictions were somewhat relaxed after the issues were pointed out.

[John Brown (no body)]

"Restrictions were somewhat relaxed after the issues were pointed out."

No doubt that was also the time when people who lived in or had an interest in esSEX, sCUNThorpe and PENIStone had issues using t'internet too.

[JimboSmith]

No doubt that was also the time when people who lived in or had an interest in esSEX, sCUNThorpe and PENIStone had issues using t'internet too.

Probably, I don't recall the whole list but someone did spend morning going through words like your examples and making a list showing how daft it was. Then I was in Argos before Christmas buying a present for a younger relative and I came across the same issue. I'd just heard someone next to me talking about going to Scunthorpe for the festive period and decided to use that as the order code. Now Argos have a prude filter and it was rejected along with a few more naughty words I tried. This was so engrossing I almost forgot why I'd gone there and it was only when I remembered they only had two in stock that I stopped mucking about and did things properly.

[Anonymous Coward]

C'mon UK show some balls and nail this properly

Fully Biometric AV...

Just because we can and because nothing could possibly go wrong:

-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-42575443

Aadhaar: 'Leak' in world's biggest database worries Indians - BBC News

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know if I'm alone on this, but I'm of the opinion

That this is really a parental / education issue and attempts at Govt regulation will be a bad joke. For instance Torrents, school exchanges or overseas vacations plus Tor-VPN and ISP mistakes etc, will all make this unworkable. It also stinks a little of high-handedness or religious undertones or moral preaching etc. Plus it'll lead to more surveillance capitalism / state tracking just because 'they can'. At best it'll be ineffective. At worst, it will add to the Privacy Apocalypse in new & definitely unexpected toxic ways....

[wolfetone]

Re: Don't know if I'm alone on this, but I'm of the opinion

You're not alone. I think the same thing.

The reality is, like I've said before, parents don't know what their kids are up to but they don't want to know either. If something then happens then it's someone else's fault, not the parent's fault. We have already seen this in cases where parents are moaning about their child racking up £2,000 on the household credit card "without their knowledge" and it's the game maker's/Apple/Googles fault. It isn't the fault of the parent that they let their child play with something they don't understand nor supervise.

[Dr Dan Holdsworth]

Re: Don't know if I'm alone on this, but I'm of the opinion

Take one moderately intelligent teen, with a smartphone. Let said teen Google "How to get to blocked sites", learn that a thing called a VPN is needed, then go looking on the Google apps installer on their phone.

There they will find the Opera free mobile VPN, and on installing it will find that porn sites become magically visible to them.

This knowledge will spread, rapidly. Teens are nothing if not extremely gossipy, and the knowing of how to get around stupid government restrictions will rapidly become common knowledge.

At which point one begs the question of why bother, if people are simply avoiding the inconvenient and frankly risable law?

[Charles 9]

Re: Don't know if I'm alone on this, but I'm of the opinion

Because it provides the excuse you need to get stricter, like giving you the moral stand you need to ban encryption wholesale.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Don't know if I'm alone on this, but I'm of the opinion

"Teens are nothing if not extremely gossipy [...]"

IIRC in the days of black & white wind-blown copies of "Health & Efficiency" - the playground was the clearing house for older pre-teens too.

I am amazed by how many of the neighbours' toddlers are already quite competent at using a smart phone or tablet. You see them gathered round the communal garden table with their pre-teen siblings. No doubt they have quickly learned how to hide things from adults. Kids are the natural learners in the human race.

[Wolfclaw]

How about we also start blocking MP's from holding office and milking expenses when they access pr0n sites? Just another knee or is that hand jerk by muppet May and her impotent government !

[Pascal Monett]

"reputational damage to the government"

It seems to me the government is doing a fine job on that by itself.

Congratulations for finding yet another way to remove the responsibility of education from the parents. That will not in any way come back to bite you later, oh no.

The nanny society forges boldly ahead . . .

[Teiwaz]

Re: "reputational damage to the government"

I was thinking much along the same lines....

What reputation? They are a bunch of [redacted] who I wouldn't trust to run a small community centre no one ever visited.

[codejunky]

Hmm

So the gov intends to cost us (because it is the customer who will be paying) for a 'feature' that we dont want because some people are apparently too incompetent to parent? I hope parents are offended at the suggestion that they are too incompetent to look after their child and oppose this idea. What is concerning is that 46% of people consulted didnt outright reject the idea as stupid.

[Jimmy2Cows]

Re: Hmm

Upvoted and I really hope you're right. But sadly too many people seem to think parental responsibility is someone else's problem, and their effort ends with plonking the kid in front of the telly or a tablet and believing the nanny state will do all the work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

But sadly too many people seem to think parental responsibility is someone else's problem, and their effort ends with plonking the kid in front of the telly or a tablet and believing the nanny state will do all the work.

That is the proud end result of decades of work by successive governments to take away consequences of bad choices. Starting in 1911 (I believe) with the first National Insurance Act (that bankrupted many Friendly Societies by stealing their turf) and progressing through all sorts of "the State must do it because we won't let you because you won't choose to do it our way".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

Well, part of it is that, unless you start having a Parenting License requirement, you're going to end up with bad parents wil ne nil ye, and their products end up making things bad for everyone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

"[...] wil ne nil ye, [...]"

Thank you for highlighting the etymology of "willy nilly".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

"That is the proud end result of decades of work by successive governments to take away consequences of bad choices."

Many of those "choices" were unavoidable.

The same groups in society that were in favour of "the workhouse" solution were also the ones who used obscenity laws to ban sex education and contraceptive advice for ordinary folk.

There were bright children from poor families who could pass their School Certificate a year early at 13. That merely enabled their parents to send them to the full-time menial labour pool - rather than achieving their educational potential.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hmm

As a parent I am deeply offended by the whole exercise, which seems an unwarrantable intrusion on my rights, or at least it would be if I lived in the UK.

But I wouldn't dare say so, because as a parent, the very worst thing that could happen to me and my family would be to get onto the radar of social services.

I foresee a booming market in prepaid credit cards with very low preloaded values.

[Charles 9]

Re: Hmm

You wouldn't like it. The US is already full of them, and there are many catches:

- High loading fees.

- Many aren't authorized for e-tail.

[chris121254]

Thing is we dont even know if they will enforce this or put blocks in place, This could fall apart soon and never get enforced.

[Velv]

Age verification

First they imposed Age Verification at the ISP on the online porn, and I didn’t complain because I don’t watch porn online.

Then they imposed Age Verification at the ISP on the online gambling, and I didn’t complain because I don’t gamble online.

Then they imposed Age Verification at the ISP on tool purchases, and I didn’t complain because I never buy scissors or knives online.

Then they imposed Age Verification at the ISP on ...

There are already “age checks” in place, adding additional checks is the slippery slope of censorship and totalitarianism.

[chris121254]

Re: Age verification

There already Age Verification at the ISP on the online gambling...

But in the end censorship and totalitarianism will not work and AV will fail and will likely fall apart and never end up blocking or putting AV anything.

[DontFeedTheTrolls]

Re: Age verification

"But in the end censorship and totalitarianism will not work and AV will fail and will likely fall apart and never end up blocking or putting AV anything."

Don't mistake failed technical implementations with the Thought Crimes the MPs believe they are protecting everyone from

[Stuart 22]

On a more positive note ...

This could be the next great leap forward in making the nation more IT literate in the footsteps of the BBC Micro and RPI.

Instantly 8.8.8.8 painted onto walls in Turkey will become the 'nick of many a graffiti artist. When that hole is blocked then the RPI with Pi-hole (reversed to not filter) will popup on every LAN. Then, of course, the Top-10 VPN list will be a way to draw custom to your website. And so on.

The difference with China is when all this gets so silly an opposition wishing to get 54% of the vote will, like identity cards, boot this idea into history.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: On a more positive note ...

"The difference with China is when all this gets so silly an opposition wishing to get 54% of the vote will, like identity cards, boot this idea into history."

Recent Westminster elections have returned governments with a working majority - while winning less than 40% of the popular vote.

Changes of government rarely repeal the passed laws of their predecessors. There is a miasma in the corridors of power that soon infects even the most liberal of human rights intentions. The current polarisation of English politics has produced two parties in thrall to their outer extremes. Such extremes often agree on how to oppress the majority of the population in pursuit of prolonged control of the levers of power.

[JimmyPage]

54%

wow - bigger than 52%

We have to respect the will of the people folks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just checked

My Victorian era Ankle-Porn site is still available.

Whoorrrrr!

Check the "skegs" on Miss November 1898!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Just checked

I'm moist just thinking about the lithograph, if you look closely you can almost see the top of her shin.

[Steve Evans]

Re: Just checked

Quiet please, I'm trying to see how the "What the butler saw" story ends.

[Anonymous Coward]

54 per cent of respondents did not support

54% of our population are PERVERTS AND PEADOTERRORISTS?! We MUST know who they are, by FULL PERSONAL DETAILS. Also, it would be handy, for operational purposes, to monitor, more closely, what exactly they watch...

[Anonymous Coward]

firs they came for the "extremist materials"

but that was a looong time ago, and the water's still just warm, innit?

[Anonymous Coward]

No sex sites please

We're British!

[TonyWilk]

Let 'em lock it all up

If our government, in it's infinite wisdom, wants to control the internet...

We just give them The Box With The Internet In It ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg )

and let them lock it up.

Then we can all carry on as normal. Everybody happy.

[Dr U Mour]

Evidence based policy at its finest...

the government has forged ahead, with the aim of stopping kids accessing porn on the grounds that such content could "distress them or harm their development".

What about "News" is that to be adult only too?

[Anonymous Coward]

King Canute to tide, "Back I say"

[M Gale]

With the difference being that Canute was a crafty fellow who was trying to show the advisors who thought the sun shone out of his arse that he's just a human being and doesn't have a god's power.

Current government, perhaps somewhat the opposite.

[Charles 9]

Problem was, Canute was not savvy enough to realize that his advisors would STILL expect the sun to emerge from his rectal orifice no matter what he demonstrated. You can't reason with irrational people, and if they want you to as I call it "chase unicorns," you need to realize you're not going to win any argument with them.

[Alister]

stopping kids accessing porn on the grounds that such content could "distress them or harm their development".

I would be interested to see if there is any actual evidence that this is the case.

It seems strange that in the UK, "kids" can legally have sex for two years before they are allowed to see porn on the Internet.

[simpfeld]

There is a good video the Open Rights Group have from a conference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I48g35KNfk8&t=1115s

At 14:12 and 16:20 even more so show there is virtually no research been done on this at all! So not an evidence based policy at all.

I always think this is being done to placate the blue rinse brigade in the Tory party that find this new newfangled Internet a scary place.

This video also talks about how bad the schemes being prepared really are.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure they are doing 'it' earlier than that. Horny teenagers have been a staple of our species since the dawn of time. Best we make it illegal and put all the juves in jail for hormonal changes. After all. Better safe than sorry eh? That's sarcasm BTW (PM's don't understand that).

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm pretty sure they are doing 'it' earlier than that. "

An old friend reminded me recently that she and her husband have now been active sex partners since they were 13. That was 60 years ago.

Malinowski's anthropological study of Trobriand Islanders in the early 20th century, "The Sexual Life of Savages", illustrated that was not unusual in a different social system. Surprisingly it did not seem to lead to pregnancies. The tribal elders were amused at Malinowski's ideas on how pregnancy happens. Their belief was that it required the couple to be officially married to produce the necessary fertility. Malinowski had to admit that the practical evidence locally supported their view.

IIRC some studies of monkeys have shown that if they are deprived of "sexual" play at puberty then they fail to mate as adults.

[tiggity]

.. and if they produce images / vids of themselves doing such a thing inn those 2 years then they can be accused under various pr0n laws. A 16 y/o taking an unclothed slefie & sending it to their 16 yo partner commits an offence in UK, but no offence if partner sees them "in the flesh" so to speak.

Deranged laws.

Lots of old copies of the (insert your description of choice) SUN now illegal pr0n e.g. 16 yo Sam Fox unclothed chest on display

[Anonymous Coward]

"A 16 y/o taking an unclothed slefie & sending it to their 16 yo partner commits an offence in UK, [...]"

IIRC in Northern Ireland there is a legal exception to the 16/17 law if the couple are legally married.

[Anonymous Coward]

How open minded of NI. Except it would still be illegal if they happen to be the same sex as we can't have that sort of person marrying each other now can we.

[handleoclast]

In related news...

The government is pressing ahead with its proposal to make hedges illegal. Said a government spokesman "Many schoolboys find pornographic magazines in hedges. Because the opposition refused to consider our proposal to require age verification in order to access hedges, our only option is to make hedges illegal." The spokesman also noted that Amber Rudd's suggestion that it could all be fixed using "hedgetags" was fucking insane, as is everything she utters.

[Nick Kew]

Re: In related news...

Hedgerows are an oasis in the ecological desert of our farmland.

Somewhere for the birds and the bees to do educationalnaughty things.

[Alister]

Re: In related news...

Somewhere for the birds and the bees to do educational naughty things.

Was it Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett who wrote that the beauty of listening to birdsong in the countryside is somewhat marred when you realise that they are all screaming "Look at me, I've got a big todger"

[toxicdragon]

Re: In related news...

Definatly Pratchett, although I'll be mogadored if I can remember which book.

[The Nazz]

Re: In related news...

Ah that'll be the lesser spotted Turdus Merula i believe.

[inmypjs]

Re: In related news...

"all screaming "Look at me, I've got a big todger"

And I always thought it was "get you xxxx knob here" (#1).

#1 Substitute bird species of choice. Mostly blackbirds and starlings around here.

[Is It Me]

Re: In related news...

"Was it Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett who wrote that the beauty of listening to birdsong in the countryside is somewhat marred when you realise that they are all screaming "Look at me, I've got a big todger""

Pretty sure that was Pratchett in Snuff where Sam Vimes has to go to the country estate

[Dr Dan Holdsworth]

Re: In related news...

Given that bees and wasps are all haplodiploid, this means they can get up to some extremely kinky things indeed.

It also means that all male bees and wasps always have grandfathers, but never have fathers.

[VinceH]

Re: In related news...

"Somewhere for the birds and the bees to do educationalnaughty things."

When I was a child and was told about the birds and the bees, I didn't believe a word of it. After all, wouldn't the bees sting the birds?

Of course, some of the birds could be masochistic, but I didn't know about that possibility back then.

[Daz555]

If these sees a return to finding pron mags in the woods like you used to back in the 70s and 80s then I'm all for it. Retro pron revival!

[Anonymous Coward]

I learned about sex via a wet and crumpled copy of Razzle. Shall we be returning to the age where sex is this big mysterious thing that only adults seem to know about? How times have changed.

[tiggity]

Was that mag a cast off from the pocket of the late, great Ian Dury?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Shall we be returning to the age where sex is this big mysterious thing that only adults seem to know about?"

In the 1950s it was purloined copies of black & white "Health and Efficiency" that were playground contraband. It probably came as a shock to some boys to later find that their new wives had nipples and pubic hair - rather than a flat expanse of monochrome skin.

[veti]

If modern kids learn from internet porn, then pubic hair is still going to come, sorry, as a shock to them.

That's the real problem with the stuff - it's got the most dreadful people in it - the kinds of oiks who feel the need to shave their nethers. And the things they do to one another - well, let's just say that if you get your sex education that way, you're going to end up with some very strange ideas about how procreation works.

[The Nazz]

Retro porn and Readers Wives

Did anyone ever come across a decent looking RW?

[handleoclast]

Re: Retro porn and Readers Wives

Did anyone ever come across a decent looking RW?

Yep. That's why those pages got stuck together.

[Justice]

Quango Unchained

Sounds like a nice little earner for someone.

Although applying such a verification system to the world wide web of pr0n is questionable.

Are our spymasters going to block every single pr0n site who don't sign up?

Even though the laws and legislation of our tiny island probably won't apply in the sites country of origin?

Am I going to have to get a VPN to access my favorite Brazilian Midget Nun Frenzy grumble vids?

[Anonymous Coward]

What a great idea...

Requiring handing over credit card details to verify age to every random smut peddling site...

I really can't see how credit card fraud isn't going to hit the headlines before the end of the year.

Although I wouldn't put it past HM Gov to use this as justification to introduce ID cards, we know they're still smarting from their previous attempt failing.

Does HM Gov not have any IT advisors with a clue? We know that at least some of the ministers have experience in smut sites, were they not asked for their input?

I wonder if HM Gov ever look back on their previous IT rulings to see if they have actually had any impact? The blocking of torrent sites is even easier to dodge thanks to Opera and its built in VPN... Curiously opting for a breakout point in Europe or US show all the old favourite sites still accessible... I'm curious why the UK seems to be the only Western country introducing their own great firewall.

[EnviableOne]

Re: What a great idea...

Just take a look down haveibeenpwned, the top three pr0n networks are there, and several other age verification required sites (that now just do a click to continue if you're over 18)

you cant trust them with an email and password, so why would you trust them with CC or Passport/ID details to verify your age?

Plus, they cant block vpn traffic, they might try IPSEC blocking, but that would affect business disprortionatley and they'd lose donors, they cant block TLS as they need HTTPS for privacy equivalence with the EU.

And anyone that wants to watch the Pr0n can just get a job with the BBFC classifying all of it ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What a great idea...

"And anyone that wants to watch the Pr0n can just get a job with the BBFC classifying all of it ...."

Or even the Internet Watch Foundation. IIRC in the early days of such proposals it was apparently suggested that upstanding boy scouts could be volunteers to assist in vetting online material.

[Dave Bell]

Which IP version

We might have a list of domain names, but will that stop people using an IP address?

And could an IP-level block ever work with IPv4? An IPv6 address doesn't really feel human-usable, I am not sure I would want to read it out over a telephone, or listen to it and get it into a computer.

Proving age could be a problem too. I am old enough to have been spammed by the Green Card Lawyers, and old enough to remember the frauds that have surrounded proof-of-age systems, but how do I prove it this time?

[Matt 18]

Is it not my job as a parent to block, filter and educate my child's usage of the internet no the government / ISPs?

What is a porn site? How nude is "too nude"? My development wasn't harmed because of dial-up porn. This whole thing is mental.

[Anonymous Coward]

Alternatively, BBFC declares the Internet as R18 and under-18's not allowed on it and then it's down to the parents to police their children.

[Dazed and Confused]

Re: BBFC

I used to quite like it when the BBFC rated video games. You could go to their website and get the detailed report by the "censor" on what content of the game resulted in it's eventual rating. Loads of games ended up with higher age ratings of bad language, I'm not stupid enough to think that kids aren't going to swear, so my attitude was "you can have the game but if I hear you using that language and you'll lose it, use that language at your mother and you'll lose the console". So we never had an issue, but it meant that when they kids wanted a particular game we could make an informed decision and we could argue our corner when we said no.

[nsld]

And this children

is why Government polcy should not be written by Mumsnet!

[The Nazz]

Ah the irony of Mumsnet.

I'm reminded of a Billy Connolly song from the (mid?) 70's about the use of the naughty four letter word

"And if those ladies past we're revealed sure as hell,

they've not only said it, they've done it as well"

It wouldn't be so bad if half (or so it seems daily) of the mothers around here actually were over 18.

[FordPrefect]

Kids always find a way. And what would you prefer they experience something from a mainstream porn site or some sick shit from the dark web ?

[Black Rat]

Once upon a time in Cuba - El Paquete Semanal

aka Cuban Netflix. Hand delivered thumb drives full of data, News, Pirated films, educational material, pop music etc

http://paquetedecuba.com/listado-del-paquete-semanal-segunda-semana-enero-actualizado-2018/

[Dan 55]

Re: Once upon a time in Cuba - El Paquete Semanal

Ban sneekers!

[mark l 2]

From previous experience at working in schools IT the kids are very savvy at getting around filters and blocks that were meant to prevent them from getting to see porn, so i doubt this is every going to work to stop kids accessing porn if they want to.

There are also just too many new sites popping up every day for people to keep blacklists up to date, block one and a new one can be online within minutes to replace it. Look at the issues they have had trying to block the Piratebay and this is just one website.

All this law does is push the cost of everyones internet connection up as the ISPs will have to pay for extra kit to manage these block lists.

[Suricou Raven]

Not at my school. I run the filters, and the greatest pleasure in the job is making sure the inmates are every bit as miserable as I am to be there.

[Charles 9]

How do you keep up with all the new sites that pop up (including the ones that look like legitimate sites--potential collateral damage)? Do you whitelist?

[Suricou Raven]

Impero. Program that lets us get up a thumbnail view of very student logged on. We can't watch all the time, but they never know when we might be watching. We also have a review system where any teacher can email us about legitimate sites they want to be given exceptions. This means that if they do find a new unblocked site that our filter provider has yet to classify, we swiftly notice it. And kill it.

Pornography is actually a very rare problem for us. It comes up sometimes, but few students seek it out while in school - probably because they don't have the privacy. They do love flash games though, and general time-wasting meme sites and image board, and movie streaming sites of dubious legality.

[Richard Parkin]

Capturing children

Doesn’t age verification work both ways - I mean it allows web sites to identify the under-age and direct them elsewhere?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Capturing children

Can you prove you are over 18 - Y/N

Y- route to requested site

N - Are you over 18? - Y/N (gets round other countries laws)

Y - Route to forgien site

N - sorry mate routes to online version of "the Joy of Sex"

[Roger Mew]

The authorities just do not seem to understand computers, the internet or even porn sites and gambling. Many Americans are gambling online yet they are not allowed to, many UK citizens are getting blocked porn, yet again they are not allowed to. I use a VPN which I pay for and can therefore circumvent any silly state run cartel or the opposite. They would be far better off education the families on how to operate say openDNS. Last year I found that the IT section of my Grandaughters school did not know that children had circumvented all their blocking software. I had to explain it to them. My French grandaughters school has nothing!

[Charles 9]

No, because the families REFUSE to learn. Unless you start demanding courses and a license to use the Internet, you don't have much else in the way of options.

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical government grand-standing

Bloody techno-ignoramous nannies! What could possibly go wrong?

[J.G.Harston]

Oh no! Boobs! and willies! And eek! what's he doing? That's the British Museum shut down.

[Anonymous Coward]

So kids, remember:

No online pron.

Get your stick mags the old fashioned way:

- Left in hedges

- Builders outhouses/portaloos

- The woods

- Uncle Kevin's closet

[Rol]

Why stop there?

As a way of enforcing the fast spreading 20mph speed limit on many roads, the council could force drivers to buy a red flag carrying robot which can run no faster than 20mph in front of the car.

Sounds no less bonkers than having to hand over your credit card details to a porn site in Nigeria.

My ISP knows full well I'm over 18 and have no children, so why isn't that sufficient to stop my internet getting fitted with training wheels, a bib and a Nanny McPhee bottom wiping service?

If I was a full-blown conspiracy theorist, I'd be inclined to think the whole thing was designed to support ISP's in charging more for a more intrusive service, whilst also supporting a more effective means of charging for porn in a world that has gotten accustomed to viewing it for free.

And if my many years under the yoke of Tory governments has revealed anything, it is their finding of ways of forcing the public into paying into Tory donor/owned businesses, has been at the heart of every policy they have ever concocted.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Why stop there?

HOW does your ISP know you're over 18, single, and childless? You could be LYING, after all.

[Rol]

Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971

"Sir! Sir! I've just found this brown envelope on the chair. It must belong to that man from the Make Money Make Porn lobbying group"

"Are you sure Smythe?"

"Well he has been sat there for the past hour bemoaning how the porn industry needs to reign in all the freebies everyone seems content to slurp up"

"Yes, I see how that might appear, but to be safe I best take hold of it and see if he comes back"

"I could chase after him sir"

"No! No need, if he notices it's missing he can arrange to have it collected"

"But.."

"Enough now Smythe. The unsolicited goods act is quite clear on the matter and Mr Lipstick Round The Nipple has three months in which to affirm his rights to the item and retake possession. After which it becomes my property"

"Yes sir. Of course sir. Is there anything else you need assistance with?"

"Mm. Yes as a matter of fact I do. You remember Mary Whitehouse and her campaign against, well, nature."

"Yes I do"

"Well I need you to find her modern equivalent, because I have some mean minded legislation to push through parliament"

[Anonymous Coward]

lets hope ...

the first sites required to capture proof of age are the Daily Fail & anything connected to The Sun/Murdoch ...... followed by Torygraph on exam results days, etc .....

[Systems Analyst]

INITAL COIN OFFERING

Sounds like an opportunity to launch the blockchain of pr0n. A name like fang or horn or quim might suit.

[Anonymous Coward]

No tits, we're British

Let our children rather watch the ISIS beheading videos. Those will not be blocked for anyone.

[Handle123456]

Re: No tits, we're British

Does that really surprise you with BBC being indistinguishable from al Jazeera?

[Anonymous Coward]

Free pron?

Reading that PDF is sort of strange. It seems to say that this only applies to commercial websites.

Does that mean it's OK for children to view free pron? But to view pay-for-pron they have to have their age verified, or steal their parents card number which they probably already did?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Meanwhile, the estimated cost to large ISPs of blocking sites – on the assumption that this would be for between 1 and 50 sites a year on a DNS level – is in the range of £100,000 to £500,000, "

If ISPs don't want to implement - then I can understand the high figure - however - most ISP's use firewalls and IDS/IDP hardware within their data centres that can filter on categories (porn being one of those) or implemented cheaply through a proxy at the data centre,

It'll not stop VPN's or other types of behaviour t get around.

[FordPrefect]

You seriously think service providers use firewalls and deep packet inspection technologies such as IDS/IDP on a connection that is charged out at 20-30 a month for connections that are probably starting to average over 20MB? Most of its DNS based filtering these days.

[Handle123456]

It's the parents' job to raise children and protect them from harm, not government's!

If a child is old and clever enough to circumvent the protection, it's old and clever enough to see a naked tit.

The British ought to work on other problems, but I guess seeing a naked boob might cripple a child for life, while being repeatedly raped by an "oppressed minority" gang is perfectly fine.

[Charles 9]

And if the parents ABDICATE the job, where does that leave you? Handling a bunch of delinquents. If you want to enforce parental responsibility, you're going to need something like a Parenting License to prevent bad parents before their children become a societal concern.

[Handle123456]

Watching porn doesn't make anyone a delinquent.

[Charles 9]

But it can still be a warning sign of parental neglect, which CAN result in delinquency. Instead of focusing on the porn, look at the bigger issue of parental abdication. If you want to reduce delinquency, you're going to need to make parents own up and take responsibility. Got any ideas against such things as broken and abusive families and parents who simply don't give a soaring screw?