back to article Joint Committee on the NBN splits, as National Party member sides with opposition

Australia's Joint Standing Committee on the National Broadband Network has released its first report [PDF] of the new Parliament, with a majority of members urging that the rest of the network be built with either fibre-to-the-curb or fibre-to-the-premises instead of fibre-to-the-node. The 17-member committee has six members …

  1. Winkypop Silver badge
    Meh

    FTTP, reality?

    Or pipe dream that is *light* years away.

    (But I live in hope, just)

    1. Knoydart
      Go

      Re: FTTP, reality?

      Bring your (light)pipe dreams of FTTP and come move to New Zealand. FTTP to 87% of the population within the next 5 years with the UFB rollout.

      1. No-One@No-Where

        Re: FTTP, reality?

        Not quite the same pop density/spread and geography though is it...

      2. mathew42

        Re: FTTP, reality?

        There are many reasons to move to NZ including escaping the apocalypse, but it is a little cold.

        What I'm curious about is what decisions NZ made that has made their project successful whereas Australia has been a disaster. I suspect NZ's decision to structurally separate the monopoly telco whereas Australia chose to establish NBNCo as a new monopoly.

  2. mathew42
    Unhappy

    Tasmania weekly earnings lowest = digital divide

    Nonetheless, Tasmania ranks the lowest on Telstra's Digital Inclusion index compared to other States.

    6302.0 - Average Weekly Earnings, Australia, May 2017 states that Tasmania has the lowest average weekly earnings, therefore it is hardly surprising that Tasmania is lower.

    Labor decision to add speed tiers to the NBN has resulted in >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower and created a digital divide. Building more FTTC or FTTP won't change that digital divide.

  3. Knoydart
    Unhappy

    A good day to bury bad news

    Sounds like a repeat of a infamous comment made in the UK on Sept 11 2001.

    It's the start of a long weekend in Australia, so by the time the news cycle comes back round on Tuesday, the report starts gathering dust...

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Let's see. We were sold out on broadband, again and again. We were given a hugely over priced slack solution, that will have to be replaced to come up to fibre to the premises in the next ten or so years (I imagine, amounting to more than the cost of doing it right the first time) cobbled together by politicians with no real long term efficent public benefit agenda, when fiber to the curb was the only real way to archieve a maximum data rate over copper to most curb serviced properties under most conditions (weather) but then you might as well go to the premises, user pays for new underground installation instead of fence/wall route. They claim an artificialy high price of the proper way, NEVER really PROVEN, instead offer a second or third rate alternative at a TOTALLY DISPROVEN, lower price, only to jack up the price repeatedly to similar amounts of the claimed over run of the proper way of doing it. They give away copious amounts of money to a private company to use their infrastructure, proping it up and making it a privileged rent collector off the public and other businesses, who with aging infrastructure is still going be there with hands on Australia's you know, when all this rental stuff has to be replaced and fibre installed. Throwing money out the window for a service nowhere near what we were supposed to get (old 1gb/s). I need to get up to a next gen vr business, 2 tb/s line for development, not 100mb/s. They did all this instead of doing the proper fiber to the premises more cost effectively, and look like heros for doing it. But of course, if it worked out the other party's figures, the opposition would look right, any other figure below their claimed blowout could make somebody look wrong. They have also taken far too long to deliver finalisation. In this way the Australian public is one party not benefiting to a greater degree.

    There should be an UN human rights enquiry on wastage affecting rights to freedom.

    Incidentally, I know one elderly gentleman being charge over a thousand for the most disgraceful looking installation job.

    1. mathew42

      Throwing money out the window for a service nowhere near what we were supposed to get (old 1gb/s). I need to get up to a next gen vr business, 2 tb/s line for development, not 100mb/s.

      Labor expected that with FTTP, <1% would have 1Gbps in 2026, and you are expecting 2Tbps? Sure VR is a cool technology, but if you want it now, I suggest locating yourself next to a peering point.

      For a bit of perspective, Square Kilometer Array has a desire for hundreds of Gigabits per second and you want 2tb/s?

      Finally don't forget that >80% of Australians are opting for 25Mbps or slower.

      1. BlackKnight(markb)

        im opting for 25mbps, because the FTTN installed on a 1.2km path that (because they stuck the node 600m from the nearest point connection point which is 600m from the house, to save money) i can only sync at 25mbps why would i pay for 100mbps service?

        when i was blessed with FTTP, I opted to go a bit faster.

        1. mathew42

          So that makes you unusual in that 14% and shrinking are ordering 100Mbps with little variation between FTTN, HFC & FTTP.

          I think on FTTN due to the variance on performance, NBNCo should remove speed tiers and just offer the service at the 12Mbps price so that no one is disadvantaged. Of course this would mean that the average speed on FTTN would be faster than the average speed on FTTP.

      2. Jasonk

        Mathew can or can not fttp deliver 1Gbps

        Can or can not fttn deliver 1 Gbps

        1. mathew42
          FAIL

          >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

          > Mathew can or can not fttp deliver 1Gbps. Can or can not fttn deliver 1 Gbps

          it depends on how you define 'deliver'.

          • If you mean for those who have an FTTP connection today can they order a 1Gbps service, then the answer is no.
          • If you mean deliver based on Labor's expectations in the NBNCo Corproate Plan then that would be less than 1% in 2026, which is still in the future.
          • If you mean will a 1Gbps FTTP connection be affordable for the average person, I suggest that is unlikely given that >80% are currently connecting at 25Mbps or slower.
          • If you mean does FTTN present a barrier to those who can afford 1Gbps, then arguably the answer is still no, because 1Gbps plans will be very expensive.
          • If you meant in a hypothetical scenario based on political spin, then yes FTTP can deliver 1Gbps and in the lab 255TBs, but that would require replacing the NBN fibre.

          As per our previous discussion you are still sulking that a network with speed tiers has resulted in >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower and provided the basis for the position that speeds faster than 25Mbps are a luxury for which people should make the appropriate sacrifice instead of expecting a middle class welfare handout.

          1. Jasonk

            Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

            1. Why can they order a service Mathew. You been banging on thats its been a viable since 2013.

            2. Well you right there as it hasnt bern labor fttp for 4 years. But then how you keep on going on about it your delusional start makes out that it still it.

            3. Lol so Mathew you can read the future but a lotto ticket lol. But then 60% on fttn can just get above 50%

            4. So wow fttn apparently can deliver 1Gbps quick you better tell the nbn

            5. Lol going off on rant there but thats for being up what fttp can really do

            As per previous dissucion your sulking at the 25Mbps mark becuase you vacant use 50% on 12/1 Lol

            So that other countries that are already supply 1Gbps speeds we are meant to compete with. It's a luxury is it. Lol you are expecting a middle class welfare hand out as you have already claimed you would claim an fttp connection back in tax. But then as you love to lie and spin as usual the tax payer was a just a guarantor for the nbn for on $30B not the $29b + $20B loan that your fanboy model now is lol

            1. mathew42
              FAIL

              Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

              > hasnt bern labor fttp for 4 years

              My point is that Labor established the NBNCo monopoly and defined the financial model which included speed tiers. My argument is that speed tiers (as predicted by Labor) have created a digital divide and enabled MTM

              The significant changes made by LNP have been lower CVC quicker than Labor planned and build FTTN / HFC (irrelevant to the > 80% ordering 25Mbps or slower)

              > As per previous dissucion your sulking at the 25Mbps mark becuase you vacant use 50% on 12/1 Lol

              Still in your delusional world where >80% on 25Mbps or slower and <14% on 100Mbps is a better outcome than Labor's plan for 50% on 12Mbps, 30% on 100Mbps and ~3% on 250Mbps?

              > So that other countries that are already supply 1Gbps speeds we are meant to compete with. It's a luxury is it.

              You know full well that I support abolishing speed tiers, which would have made 1Gbps available for everyone. A NBN would have made it much harder for LNP to build FTTN because the gap between 10-20 fold gap between FTTN & 1Gbps FTTP is significant, whereas with >80% selecting 25Mbps or slower it is only a small group (<4%) of spoilt rich who are impacted.

              Labor's plan as outlined in the NBNCo Corporate Plan was for less than 1% to have 1Gbps in 2026. This hardly makes us competitive. In fact in the 2010 Corporate Plan is a chart showing how Labor planned for us to fall further behind over time.

              > But then as you love to lie and spin as usual

              So quoting from Labor's NBNCo Corporate Plan is considered lying and spin?

              I suggest that Labor's response to Google Fibre's 1/1Gbps direct fibre build by increasing the NBN top speed from 100Mbps to 1Gbps just prior to the 2010 election and omitting to state their expectation that it would be so expensive that <1% of Australians would be connected at 1Gbps in 2026 is a good example of spin.

              My suggestion at the time and since is that Labor should have responded by offering Google $20 billion to build Google Fibre here. By now we might have had the network built and a Google Lab experimenting with Loon for remote access.

              > fanboy model

              I've never been a fan of FTTN / HFC. I've merely pointed out that Labor's decisions in setting up the NBN have had a significantly bigger impact. Secondly, the technology change has impact on only about 4%, .who are mostly rich.

              1. Jasonk

                Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                "My argument is that speed tiers (as predicted by Labor) have created a digital divide and enabled MTM"

                So apparently supply speeds of 100Mbps and giving consumers choice on hiw fast they want to pay for is some how in your delusional frame of mind creating a digital divide. While your copper fan boi support which gives a lottry tickit on how fast your connection is doesnt create a digital devide.

                "The significant changes made by LNP have been lower CVC quicker than Labor planned and build FTTN / HFC (irrelevant to the > 80% ordering 25Mbps or slower)"

                Lol as i have stated under labor FTTP it cost the same to deliver the different speeds. It would have been extremely easy for FTTP to adjust the CVC price. As the MTM is relying on more CVC revenue than FTTP at this point in time a simple fact you have chosrn to ignore. While we know under FTTN even if tthey make the prices better people still wont beable to order a better service due to the limits of copper even though above you have claimed otherwise.

                "Still in your delusional world where >80% on 25Mbps or slower and <14% on 100Mbps is a better outcome than Labor's plan for 50% on 12Mbps, 30% on 100Mbps and ~3% on 250Mbps?"

                So as i have shown you with very simple maths that more peple on higher teirs under fttp generates more revune. But alas you have chosen to ignore that simple fact and claim its CVC cost is the revune stream lol. Considering your delisional in think cvc cost is supplying most of the revenue when it only supplies 30%

                "So quoting from Labor's NBNCo Corporate Plan is considered lying and spin?"

                Yes as you well or might not as you are delusional. As FTTP has been doing it for 4 years now. The fact your compare mtm figures vs fttp figures which hasnt change much at all since 2013 who knows what it would be now. You dont want to compare the $29B evone to have 25Mbps by last year. But considering how delusional you are you seem to believe it has happen.

                "I suggest that Labor's response to Google Fibre's 1/1Gbps direct fibre build by increasing the NBN top speed from 100Mbps to 1Gbps just prior to the 2010 election and omitting to state their expectation that it would be so expensive that <1% of Australians would be connected at 1Gbps in 2026 is a good example of spin."

                Considering Google was going to announce which city in decmber 2010 but was pushed back to early 2011. So before the august 2010 election lol. But please keep being delusional lol.

                "My suggestion at the time and since is that Labor should have responded by offering Google $20 billion to build Google Fibre here. By now we might have had the network built and a Google Lab experimenting with Loon for remote access."

                Considering before the nbn there was a tender for FTTN. Which no private company put in a successful tender. But then how delusional you are thinking a private company going to not cherry pick areas lol.

                "I've never been a fan of FTTN / HFC. I've merely pointed out that Labor's decisions in setting up the NBN have had a significantly bigger impact. Secondly, the technology change has impact on only about 4%, .who are mostly rich."

                Yes you have as have. Lol really. Wrong again there is a report that doubling the broadband speed of a country adds 0.3% to the GDP then each doubling after that keeps adding 0.3%. So since the mtm is only required to deliver an up to 25Mbps and adsl "average" speed us 12Mbps. So it only doubles once how many times does FTTP doubles our country speed? So since thats a sizable increase to our GDP as a country which affects more than the 4% you are trying to spin and lie about

                1. mathew42
                  FAIL

                  Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                  > So apparently supply speeds of 100Mbps and giving consumers choice on hiw fast they want to pay for is some how in your delusional frame of mind creating a digital divide.

                  There is a key distinction between 'want' and 'can afford'. Most people in Australia would enjoy driving a luxury European car, but very few can afford it. Labor's speed tiers have as Labor expected, created a digital divide of >80% on 25Mbps or slower and a shrinking percentage (14%) on 100Mbps.

                  Based on your argument the availability of technology change removes the issue, because if you want to pay for it you can :-).

                  > So as i have shown you with very simple maths that more peple on higher teirs under fttp generates more revune. But alas you have chosen to ignore that simple fact and claim its CVC cost is the revune stream lol. Considering your delisional in think cvc cost is supplying most of the revenue when it only supplies 30%

                  You can massage numbers to come up with the desired numbers. What doesn't change and you have consistently ignored is that Labor explicitly stated in the NBNCo Corporate Plan that their stated intention was for NBNCo to derive an increasing portion of revenue from CVC because they in my opinion correctly forecast that increased use of streaming technologies would lead to higher demand. The great advantage of this is that data growth is organic (quota exceeded), where as moving up a speed tier requires a decision by the customer.

                  > The fact your compare mtm figures vs fttp figures which hasnt change much at all since 2013 who knows what it would be now.

                  Umm... We do know what it would be today, because NBNCo / ACCC release quarterly figures broken down by technology which show no growth in those prepared to pay for faster speeds.

                  > So it only doubles once how many times does FTTP doubles our country speed?

                  Thanks to Labor's speed tiers resulting in >80% on 25Mbps or slower the NBN hasn't delivered the benefits that 1Gbps could have delivered. As you are well aware if speed tiers were removed on the FTTN network it would have a higher average speed than FTTP with Labor's speed tiers.

                  I don't dispute that 1Gbps could have delivered significant economic and social benefits, however not when Labor intended for <1% to have 1Gbps in 2026.

                  Delusional are fibre fanbois believing that Labor was building a 1Gbps network for them, unless of course they were in the elite 1%. But then if you were in the elite 1% technology change wouldn't be a significant expense. Delusional is ignoring the evidence that >80% of Australians have decided to select 25Mbps or slower.

                  1. Jasonk

                    Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                    "There is a key distinction between 'want' and 'can afford'. Most people in Australia would enjoy driving a luxury European car, but very few can afford it. Labor's speed tiers have as Labor expected, created a digital divide of >80% on 25Mbps or slower and a shrinking percentage (14%) on 100Mbps. "

                    Ahh so given someone a choice of speeds that has different cost is a digital divide with a small difference in cost. But then shows how delusional you really are

                    "Based on your argument the availability of technology change removes the issue, because if you want to pay for it you can :-)."

                    Lol so if we use your delusional arguement of a digital divide. How worst is that digital divide is when instead of spending say $30 more for faster speeds that have to spend up to $150,000 for faster speeds.

                    Lol whgat massaging of numbers like you 80% on 25Mbps or less lol. That nbn own figures but again you try to make a delusional claim without backing up your claims with any facts as usual just the lie and spin as always lol

                    "Umm... We do know what it would be today, because NBNCo / ACCC release quarterly figures broken down by technology which show no growth in those prepared to pay for faster speeds."

                    So since the rollout out stopped in 2013 and fttp figures hasnt changed much at all we apparently know lol best spin i have seen from you. But then we have reports of people being moved down speeds teirs as fttn could supply those speeds but again no growth because unable to now supply.

                    "Thanks to Labor's speed tiers resulting in >80% on 25Mbps or slower the NBN hasn't delivered the benefits that 1Gbps could have delivered."

                    Off topic spin As always becuase cant dispute the facts.

                    "you are well aware if speed tiers were removed on the FTTN network it would have a higher average speed than FTTP with Labor's speed tiers."

                    Same spin as always want people wants people to pay the same price whether they get 0Mbps or up to 100Mbps lol.

                    "I don't dispute that 1Gbps could have delivered significant economic and social benefits, however not when Labor intended for <1% to have 1Gbps in 2026."

                    Almost on topic but with the usual rant at the end. 100Mbps adds 1.2% to our GDP compared to .3%. So much for your 4% rich people delusional claim lol

                    "Delusional are fibre fanbois believing that Labor was building a 1Gbps network for them, unless of course they were in the elite 1%. But then if you were in the elite 1% technology change wouldn't be a significant expense. Delusional is ignoring the evidence that >80% of Australians have decided to select 25Mbps or slower."

                    I didn't know supply 100Mbps to every house a 1Gbps network. But then again when the time to increase speeds considering most countries are already suppling 1Gbps networks compared to you fanboy of 25Mbps networks.

                    Delusional is when you have 65% on user picking the maximum or faster then what the network is required to deliver when it hasnt finished yet. Current ridiculous cost to upgrade premises $150K. Having to upgradecsaud network 5 years after its complete when they have no way if even paying for said upgrades. Claiming to do upgrades when demand is there but won't know the demand is there because they can't supply speeds for that demand lol

                    1. mathew42
                      FAIL

                      Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                      Please accept FTTP has zero traction in the general population because Labor added speed tiers to the network, meaning that >80% are selecting speeds easily provided by FTTN. Your selfishness in not caring that most Australians were going to be denied the benefits of the NBN enabled LNP to replace FTTP with HFC & FTTN because it met the requirements of >80%.

                      > Ahh so given someone a choice of speeds that has different cost is a digital divide with a small difference in cost. But then shows how delusional you really are

                      If the cost is a small amount then why are only 14% and shrinking selecting 100Mbps?

                      > again you try to make a delusional claim without backing up your claims with any facts as usual just the lie and spin as always lol

                      I've repeatedly given you references to the NBNCo Corporate Plan and ACCC NBN Wholesale Market Indicators Report but I doubt you have even read these documents.

                      > So since the rollout out stopped in 2013 and fttp figures hasnt changed much at all we apparently know lol best spin i have seen from you.

                      If it is spin then I suggest that you provide the references and calculations to substantiate your claims.

                      > Delusional is when you have 65% on user picking the maximum or faster then what the network

                      Delusional is suggesting everyone on FTTN (<40% of network) will have network issues on 25Mbps or faster, when NBNCo have reported the average speed down is 67.7Mbps and up is 30.63Mbps. This will improve when profiles are changed after migration from ADSL to FTTN is complete.

                      Fibre fanboi campaigns since 2012 have achieved nothing outside the small percentage willing to pay for fast speeds, because the general population have correctly judged your attitude as self-interest, not community interest.

                      1. Jasonk

                        Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                        "Your selfishness in not caring that most Australians were going to be denied the benefits of the NBN enabled LNP to replace FTTP with HFC & FTTN because it met the requirements of >80%."

                        Lol your selfiness in not caring that most Australians are now denied any benefits and any further speed increases. As you you figures for what people are choosing now considering most Australians have never had speeds in the double digits. Would have love to seen your argement vs dial up and ADSL when it came out. What was ADSL traction 5 or 10 years after it came out?. Your lack of any foresight shows you want to deny Australian any speed increase unless they can afford the cost of up to $150k. We

                        can already see whaat has happeen in other counties. But then you always ignore it.

                        "If the cost is a small amount then why are only 14% and shrinking selecting 100Mbps?"

                        Has fttp % changed in the last 4 years? But please try the spin again. But then love how you ignore if we use your delusional argument of a digital divide. If $30 is A small amount causing a digital divide in choice. What would you call $150k choice for the same speeds? I won't expect an answer as its ruins you delusional spin as alwasys lol.

                        "I've repeatedly given you references to the NBNCo Corporate Plan and ACCC NBN Wholesale Market Indicators Report but I doubt you have even read these documents."

                        Lol you keep banging on about the fttp corporate plan which was a guide line. You have had to shift from 50% on 12/1 to 80% On 25Mbps or less because the o12/1 doesnt support you fanboy status anymore lol.

                        "If it is spin then I suggest that you provide the references and calculations to substantiate your claims."

                        In the link you have provided but I guess you have trouble working out %. Or again doesnt support you fanboy status.

                        "Delusional is suggesting everyone on FTTN (<40% of network) will have network issues on 25Mbps or faster, when NBNCo have reported the average speed down is 67.7Mbps and up is 30.63Mbps. This will improve when profiles are changed after migration from ADSL to FTTN is complete."

                        So when 65% can get 50Mbps or faster. But then they as i have pointed out to you before are most likely using fttb figure in the average. As to only have 30% above the average speed and 60% below it with 30% cant get faster above 50Mbps. Plus report on people is being to be move down speeds teirs becuase fttn cant supply it. As well as the nbn refusing to release the real fttn speeds.

                        "Fibre fanboi campaigns since 2012 have achieved nothing outside the small percentage willing to pay for fast speeds, because the general population have correctly judged your attitude as self-interest, not community interest."

                        As I have shown you with very simple maths that that small % generates more rebuke than the 80% getting a nice cheap service becuase of it. But again as you fanboy copper delusion you ignore it. So trying to make sure the community can have a choice on the same speed vs having a lotto ticket on where you are or how good your copper is to what speeds you can get.

                        You have already shown your self interest as its al labors fault on a network which is now not there design has been for 4 years. It's apparently labor fault that your fanboy copper couldn't be delivered for $29B and everyone to have 25Mbps last year

                        1. mathew42
                          FAIL

                          Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                          > Lol your selfiness in not caring that most Australians are now denied any benefits and any further speed increases.

                          Your position is that a priviliged few (<14%) should enjoy speeds on a goverment network that through pricing structures are denied to others. Further that less than 1% in 2026 should enjoy 1Gbps. I cannot see how a network where <14% achieve the minimum speed to meet the aims of the government program fair. A network where <1% in 2026 will have world class speeds is even less fair.

                          My simple position is that if FTTN adequately meets the demands of >80% then that is all the government is required to provide. Those who require more have two choices move to an FTTP location or technology change. Based on speed tier percentages and trends for the last four years the impact is about 4% of the population.

                          Alternatively they could campaign for an abolition of speed tiers, but that would have required criticising Labor's FTTP plan back in 2009-2010 which didn't occur, because fibre fanbois were worried if the plan was critqued, holes would emerge and it would disappear in a puff of smoke. Instead you are now reaping the rewards of your selfishness.

                          > What would you call $150k choice for the same speeds?

                          Move evidence of your irrational fibre fanboi logic by picking an extreme unreferenced number. Most suggest FTTN to FTTP will cost between $5,000 to $15,000. Less than a kitchen renovation and less than stamp duty. Likely to be less than 12 months on 1Gbps FTTP plan.

                          > Has fttp % changed in the last 4 years? But please try the spin again.

                          The percentage on 100Mbps on FTTP has barely changed in the last 4 years. You should know this, but have this belief system that demand is sitting there waiting to explode.

                          > What was ADSL traction 5 or 10 years after it came out?

                          The only significant move in speed in ADSL was triggered by Internode installing DSLAMs into exchanges and offering uncapped speeds. TPG with FTTB are somewhat similar offering either 12Mbps or 100Mbps for $10 extra.

                          Sadly, you cannot distinguish between your personal desire and the reality of the general population. Unfortunately unlimited data plans have contributed to the lack of demand for faster speeds because faster plans mean more data can be downloaded adding to the cost, whereas faster plans on the same quota have little impact on the network.

                          > So when 65% can get 50Mbps or faster. But then they as i have pointed out to you before are most likely using fttb figure in the average.

                          Again yet more unsubstansiated fibre fanboi wishful thinking. FTTB is an entirely separte product to FTTN, and listed as such in the reports that I've previously pointed you towards. Of course I appreciate that as a fibre fanboi you find reality challenging to your world view.

                          1. Jasonk

                            Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                            Your position is that a priviliged few (<14%) should enjoy speeds on a goverment network that through different technologies are denied to others.

                            "My simple position is that if FTTN adequately meets the demands of >80% then that is all the government is required to provide. Those who require more have two choices move to an FTTP location or technology change."

                            But in your delusional mind thats not a digital divide lol. If the move how could they if the user purchase demand they connect fibre which cost up to $150k. Lol

                            "Move evidence of your irrational fibre fanboi logic by picking an extreme unreferenced number."

                            https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.itnews.com.au/news/first-nbn-fibre-extension-comes-in-150000-312027&ved=0ahUKEwiS_MWwqt7WAhWKULwKHbciAXIQFghCMAI&usg=AOvVaw3Y8LhcB2fqImGC6NRZoYGO but then I guess you only read your fanboy status quo.

                            "Most suggest FTTN to FTTP will cost between $5,000 to $15,000. Less than a kitchen renovation and less than stamp duty." But then you do no reference lol

                            "The percentage on 100Mbps on FTTP has barely changed in the last 4 years. You should know this, but have this belief system that demand is sitting there waiting to explode."

                            Lol no you claim it was going down. Well considering users on fttn had to be move down speeds due to fttn cant deliver it. Most people on ADSL already know how goid there copper is no wonder fttn can barely get into doublle digits for 100Mbps lol

                            "Sadly, you cannot distinguish between your personal desire and the reality of the general population"

                            Yes you can't as polls have shown they would prefer fttp lol

                            "Unfortunately unlimited data plans have contributed to the lack of demand for faster speeds because faster plans mean more data can be downloaded adding to the cost, whereas faster plans on the same quota have little impact on the network."

                            Another spin and liie with nothing to back it up with but keep trying lol

                            "The only significant move in speed in ADSL was triggered by Internode installing DSLAMs into exchanges and offering uncapped speeds. TPG with FTTB are somewhat similar offering either 12Mbps or 100Mbps for $10 extra."

                            Ahh so 5 years after ADSL started in Australia lol. But please keep trying lol your busted google claim lol

                            "Again yet more unsubstansiated fibre fanboi wishful thinking. FTTB is an entirely separte product to FTTN" please try again. The accc does that the nbn doesnt. Should I go back here on these forums where I have points to your exact claim the the link you even provided stated as much. But please try again I know it goes against your fanboy status of saying to same thing over again might make it come true lol.

                            1. mathew42
                              FAIL

                              Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                              > First NBN fibre extension comes in: $150,000

                              Date of article: 16-Aug-2012 (pre FTTN, while Labor in power)

                              Context: Person requested to change from Satellite to FTTP and was quoted $150,000.

                              One source in the industry suggested lack of infrastructure could require NBN Co to spend up to $120,000 to build new pit-and-pipe over the 1.3 kilometre distance in a built-up area.

                              The article you should have linked to is Few users go through with expensive NBN tech switches

                              Date: 31-Mar-2017

                              Quote: Bill Morrow’s assertions at estimates last week that the costs normally ranged from “sub-$1000 to tens of thousands of dollars” are broadly accurate. The average cost per premises, based on these new figures, is around $7395.

                              Based on this average cost is likely to be less than 6 months on 1Gbps.

                              The first time you provide a reference it is dated prior to LNP being elected and is a complaint about Labor's plan.

                            2. mathew42
                              FAIL

                              Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                              > But in your delusional mind thats not a digital divide lol.

                              I have never said it is not a digital divide. The rich will always have more money to spend. The point I'm making is that >80% of Australians have selected 25Mbps, so that should be considered the baseline. The question I'm asking you is why are you so special that you deserve the benefits of a government funded network that you deny to >80%. Are you special enough to be in the 1% connected at 1Gbps in 2026? I doubt it, because if you were, you wouldn't be complaining about the cost of technology change.

                              > Lol no you claim it was going down.

                              The percentage on 100Mbps dropped sharply from the first connections to stabilise at 14%. This steep drop under Labor's governance is easily explained by the early adopters selecting faster speeds and late adopters choosing slower speeds.

                              Internet Connection Speed Recommendations from Netflix are 5Mbps for HD & 25Mbps for UHD. Now you might think 25Mbps indicates those on 25Mbps will need to upgrade, however I expect most will bauk at the cost increases to deliver 25Mbps during peak hour. 25Mbps of CVC at $14Mbps = $350.

                              > Another spin and liie with nothing to back it up with

                              I suggest reading NBN: ISP Congestion and speed tiers which explains why when RSPs purchase inadequate CVC resulting in congestion there is little value in purchasing faster speeds. Simply calculating NBNCo Wholesale costs, RSPs cannot sell the current plans at a profit and provdie a congestion free network.

                        2. mathew42
                          FAIL

                          Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                          > Lol your selfiness in not caring that most Australians are now denied any benefits and any further speed increases.

                          Greater than 80% of Australians are having exactly the same experience on FTTN, HFC & FTTP because they've selected 25Mbps or slower.

                          Based speed tier take up for past 4 years, ~4% of Australians have been disadvantaged (unable to purchase 100Mbps connection) by FTTN.

                          These two numbers should help you and other fibre fanbois appreciate the gap between your world view and the rest of Australia. If you are in doubt crunching the numbers in the NBNCo Corporate Plans / ACCC reports will confirm the calculations or you could look at previous articles where I've explained the calculations in depth..

                          1. Jasonk

                            Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                            Lol and in 5 to 10 years people start complaining about being unable to get better speeds becuase people like you said you chose those speeds deal with it lol.

                            4% ah that mythical made up number but please try again when I counted it with figures from a report about broadband speeds you as all ways ignore as it doesn't suit your copper fanboy status. Like you still have explain how a $150k for isnt a digital divide lol

            2. mathew42
              FAIL

              Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

              > Why can they order a service Mathew. You been banging on thats its been a viable since 2013.

              Incorrect.

              I've stated that NBNCo have offered 1Gbps to RSPs since December 2013, but since you cannot order a service from an RSP. Given the advantage that the first mover will have in attracting early adopters with deep wallets, the only conclusion I can draw is that RSPs cannot make the numbers work.

              This is hardly surprising when the minimum investment for a national network is 2Gbps CVC priced at $14/Mbps for 121 PoIs is $3.4 million and on top of that you need to add the RSP's internal costs it is not hard to understand why.

              1. Jasonk

                Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                Wrong again myrepublic is offering it in Wollongong but please keep trying

                1. mathew42
                  FAIL

                  Re: >80% connecting at 25Mbps or slower

                  > Wrong again myrepublic is offering it in Wollongong but please keep trying

                  I'm well aware that MyRepublic are running an invitation only marketing exercise for 100 people which is selling 1Gbps connections at a significant discount to the NBNCo AVC wholesale price.

                  This in no way is a national service or one that can be ordered today. This is the distinction between fibre fanboi blinded by shiney light and reality.

      3. chrisw67

        That 160 Gbps is per-dish and the fully developed SKA will many hundreds of dishes in a tiered arrangement. Some of the larger links in the system are being scoped around 80Tbps.

  5. david 12

    Privatise the profits, Socialise the costs

    Country Party policy since the party was first formed.

    1. mathew42
      FAIL

      Re: Privatise the profits, Socialise the costs

      The Labor Party who setup NBNCo created it as a monopoly with the stated intention of privatisation as soon as the risk build was complete.

  6. OffBeatMammal
    WTF?

    At the moment I live in the US - Comcast may be shit, but they can deliver a steady 100Mbps down (and 25Mbps up) for $100/mo.

    We're moving back home to Aus at the end of the year, and I suspect my daughter will last about a week before demanding we move back to the US so she can get a decent ping time.

    It's embarrassing that this project has been burning so much money, for so long, and the roll-out is so far from completion while our neighbours in NZ, and much of Asia leave us in the dust.

    It's not like any of this is rocket science... people know how to roll out reliable, cost effective, highly performant networks ... but the politicians and their mates, the consultants and the greedy contractors saw the dollar signs flashing and we're left with this crock

  7. Geriant

    "The company is yet to install FTTC in anger."

    On the other hand, it (or the article-writer) has no trouble spelling fibre-to-the-kerb incorrectly. (This isn't North America -- yet.)

    And, while I'm being a spelling Nazi, it probably wouldn't hurt to spell Sussan Ley's name correctly, either.

    1. chrisw67

      While we are on a spelling rant... The quoted recommendation, “clear information about the maximum attainable layer 2 speed of their NBN infrastructure/service on a per premise basis,” perpetuates the stupidity that "premise" is a single premises and not, as any dictionary shows, a statement or proposition as a basis for a work or theory. This particular faux pas is repeated a number of times in the recommendations and elsewhere in gems like "fibre-to-the-premise technology", "cost-per-premise," or "premise-by-premise basis."

  8. No-One@No-Where

    Hmmm

    To Be Fair - Pop Density and Geography play a big part

  9. rtb61

    HFC Horrible Fucking Crap Network

    So FTN is dead, how about the do nothing network, HFC, where they did nothing but buy what was already there, decades old and in a very deteriorated state and totally incapable of supplying need (best guess norm 860Mbps download and 40Mbps the maximum possible and shared with 500 other users, didn't you know 860 divided by 500 equals 100, just ask the NBN and the LNP.

    It looks like the shonky deal spending billions with their mates second hand crap networks is about to blow up in their faces, with FTC set to replace all the other mess.

    1. mathew42
      FAIL

      Re: HFC Horrible Fucking Crap Network

      > totally incapable of supplying need (best guess norm 860Mbps download and 40Mbps

      The challenge is that >80% are ordering 25Mbps or slower and RSPs are pushing unlimited data plans but purchasing insufficient CVC so I doubt most people will notice.

  10. mathew42
    FAIL

    NBN or Telstra responsible for download speeds?

    In Not happy with the NBN? You're not alone. The number of complaints has jumped 160pc there is this quote:

    Dr Kay said they got better speeds from the old ADSL than with the NBN fibre to the premises. "Our download speeds can get down to 2.2 megabits a second and uploads speeds can be zero. That happens fairly regularly — it might even be daily," he said. He said every six months the whole connection dropped out, which was not just frustrating but also life threatening.

    At one point, Dr Kay said his patients were calling Telstra to try and reach him, and the telco requested he give them a mobile number to reach him on. "We said no, why don't you fix the NBN? So we actually have the service we contract you to provide."

    It will be interesting to see some more facts, but the first assumption has to be that erratic speeds are an RSP (Telstra?) issue.

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