back to article nbn™ adds premises to FTTC, HFC, slims down FTTN build

There's nothing wrong with fibre-to-the-node (FTTN), nothing at all – but nbn™, the company building Australia's National Broadband Network (NBN), has decided to move more than a million premises onto other technologies. News of the change came in a new corporate plan released yesterday, which detailed how lucky householders …

  1. Winkypop Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    The NBN: Such bollocks

    See title

    1. LaeMing
      Unhappy

      Re: The NBN: Such bollocks

      NBN is Australia's ACA - something that should so obviously be bipartisan and for the people's benefit re-purposed as a political cudgel.

      1. mathew42
        Holmes

        Re: The NBN: Such bollocks

        > something that should so obviously be bipartisan and for the people's benefit

        It is a valid point, but unfortunately if you critique a plan based on it's merits, supporters respond with fear.

        Labor's plan had a number of flaws and contradictions (e.g speed tiers versus minimum requirements for the applications Labor was promoting; overbuilding HFC first, growth in ARPU, etc.) but debate was stifled by fibre fanbois. At this point there remains a significant gap between what customers are prepared to pay for (25Mbps or slower) and what the power users expect everyone should have..

        The promotion of renewable energy and clsoure of coal power stations has resulted in a state wide blackout, load shedding and a significant risk of blackouts during summer. Only after the blackouts is action being taken to make the necessary changes to the grid (e.g .frequency stability) to accommodate the differences between a few large generators with high inertia and a many small generators with low intertia. Listening to engineers coold have avoided this situations, but the Greenies degegrated anyone who dared to critique renewable energy, even if a solution to the identified issue was available.

        It should be noted that the unusually quick action by the South Austrlaian government might be related to the upcoming state election on 17 March 2018. potential electoral backlash if widespread blackouts occur over summer.

  2. JJKing
    Mushroom

    Feed the nbn my icon.

    Maybe if I'm lucky they will come and take the shitty green box away and replace it with FTTC (or K). The build started end Jan beginning Feb, completed end May, email received saying it went live June 2 and since then all I have is a email from my ISP saying they have had a "bump in the road". So that is now 3 months where nbn has been unable to get a fully wired Node to work. Incompetent twats. Morrow should have his 457 visa cancelled and replaced with someone who is up to the task of rolling out the fibre.

    Why is the FTTP connection $4,400 when NZ FTTP costs about that same as OZ FTTN? Is morrow even more incompetent than originally thought?

    Now we just have to wait for Mathew Ashwood to come and paste his usual tripe.

    1. mathew42
      FAIL

      Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

      > Incompetent twats. Morrow should have his 457 visa cancelled and replaced with someone who is up to the task of rolling out the fibre.

      Would you suggest Quigley who was years behind the original plan?

      Did you happen to notice that NBN is ahead of targets set in earlier plans? Something never achieved by Quigley.

      > Why is the FTTP connection $4,400 when NZ FTTP costs about that same as OZ FTTN? Is morrow even more incompetent than originally thought?

      Possibly because of the way that Quigley under instruction for Labor planned the build?

      > ... usual tripe

      The fact that the percentage on 25Mbps or less is close to where it was before the first FTTN connection.

      How about you offer some suggestions for the changes (beyond FTTP) which won't have any impact on >80% to resolve your concerns?

      1. Jasonk

        Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

        Mathew

        "Would you suggest Quigley who was years behind the original plan?"

        Usual copper fan claim with no facts behind it

        The SR had it 6 months behind.

        "Possibly because of the way that Quigley under instruction for Labor planned the build?"

        Another copper fan claim with no facts.

        Under Quigley fttp had continued to come down i the 1 half years of the rollout to $500 cheaper than the current cost. While 4 years of ther mtm rollout it has never come down in price. While around the world like NZ cost of FTTP has continued to fall.

        Usual copper fan tripe commented before on couldn't be bother tto do it again

        1. mathew42
          FAIL

          Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

          > Usual copper fan claim with no facts behind it

          I could retort by responding usual fibre fanboi comment who still dreams of Labor's empty 1Gbps promise, however I'm not a copper fan. All I've ever done is point out that Labor's choice to implement speed tiers has meant that >80% will be adequately served by FTTN. If we want to change that situation then the first step is working out how to reduce that number, to a figure that justifies FTTP.

          > The SR had it 6 months behind.

          Which version of the SR? The NBNCo Corporate Plan (2010) on page 15 states the following figures for premises passed - 2011: 48,000, 2012: 259,000, 2013: 1, 2,69,000). The NBNCo Corporate Plan (2013) on page 105 states that in 2011 18,000 premises were passed and in 2013 predicted 205,000 passed, placing it 2 years behind plan.

          In the 2013 NBNCo Corporate Plan there is this gem of a comment:

          During FY2013 the average number of premises passed per day by the FTTP Access Network has increased quarter-by-quarter. However, the rate of increase has been slower than forecast in the 2012-15 Corporate Plan, resulting in a revised estimate of 155,000 to 175,000 Premises Passed by 30 June 2013, representing an expected shortfall of approximately 111,000 to 131,000 premises passed to 30 June 2013, which NBN Co expects to recover before FY2021.

          > Usual copper fan tripe commented before on couldn't be bother tto do it again

          Do you see how I've responded with facts from publications approved by Labor that can be easily verified versus your unverifiable opinions? Might be time to learn how to research and separate wishful thinking from reality.

          1. Jasonk

            Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

            "however I'm not a copper fan. All I've ever done is point out that Labor's choice to implement speed tiers has meant that >80% will be adequately served by FTTN."

            4 years on and you are still bitching and moaning about labor. You are a copper fan boy. But then using your same figures 65% are choosing 25Mbps or higher. That's on a network only required to deliver up to 25Mbps and its not finished yet. Cant understand why customers had to be more down speed tiers because fttn cant deliver said speeds lol.

            LOL still now facts behind the figures just your assumptions lol. Typical copper fan by stuff right there. did you times the about that added that figure and then go this whats going to happen?

            "Do you see how I've responded with facts from publications approved by Labor that can be easily verified versus your unverifiable opinions? Might be time to learn how to research and separate wishful thinking from reality."

            Tell me again why there isnt 50% on 12/1 right now cant use Telstra as an excuse.

            1. mathew42
              FAIL

              Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

              > Cant understand why customers had to be more down speed tiers because fttn cant deliver said speeds lol.

              Except that the percentage on each speed tier has barely changed since the additoin of FTTN, FTTB & HFC to the network. Sure a few people have been impacted, but as I've explained previously this is 14% on 100Mbps * 40% on FTTN * 70% estimated final connection rate = 4% of population. This 4% have options like moving or technology chnage.

              > Tell me again why there isnt 50% on 12/1 right now cant use Telstra as an excuse.

              The reason I switched to using the 25Mbps figure is that Labor planned for the 25 & 50Mbps speed tiers to shrink in size to a neglible amount. That hasn't happened. Secondly it highlights more succinctly the digitial divide that Labor's policy has created.

              How about you explain why >80% on 25Mbps or slower is a great achievement for a 1Gbps capable network? As you do, remember that it is the fibre fanboi support of Labor's speed tiers that has lead to FTTN.

              1. Jasonk

                Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                Except that the percentage on each speed tier has barely changed since the additoin of FTTN, FTTB & HFC to the network. Sure a few people have been impacted, but as I've explained previously this is 14% on 100Mbps * 40% on FTTN * 70% estimated final connection rate = 4% of population. This 4% have options like moving or technology chnage.

                Lol you know that fttn hasnt even got half of the people that can connect connected yet. Ahh yes the FOD thast was once famously claimed it would only cost $2.5k. Now its $15k - $150k

                No the reason you the copper fan boy switchef was becuase more people where choosing faster speefs than labor expected

                Lol thgats easy to explain. The network was only 1.5 uears into it being built and wasnt going to be cometed for a decade. Being about to easly upgrade to network to fast speeds without have tyo rio stuff out and put new stuff in. Just the ednd to end stuff. You know planing for the future not for what people are choising now.

                But then you copper fanboi supportof trying to blame lanor for the copper mess is humorous

                1. mathew42
                  FAIL

                  Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                  > No the reason you the copper fan boy switchef was becuase more people where choosing faster speefs than labor expected

                  The only speed tier that is higher is 25Mbps. The 100Mbps is half what Labor predicted and 250Mbps connections are tiny.

                  Consider this if speed tiers were removed on FTTN, the average speed would be higher than FTTP. Does that not demonstrate how badly Labor bungled the artificial NBNCo financial model.

                  > But then you copper fanboi supportof trying to blame lanor for the copper mess is humorous

                  The difference between the two plans will have little impact on end-users. >80% aren't ordering speeds greater than 25Mbps, so they will be fine. The small percentage requiring 100Mbps or faster have options: move or technology change. Considering the fact that technology change will almost certainly be less than stamp duty, staying put is an option.

                  I blame the selfish fibre fanbois who belieived Labor's promise of 1Gbps, failed to read that it would be for <1% in 2026. I blame the selfish fibre fanbois who don't care that only 14% and shrinking are on the minimum recommended speed for the applications (eHealth, eLearning, etc.) that Labor used as justification for the NBN.

                  If you are complaining about technology change bieng unaffordable then sadly you are destined to be on the poor side of the digital divide created by Labor's plan, which is appropriate judgement for your selfishness.

                  1. Jasonk

                    Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                    "The only speed tier that is higher is 25Mbps. The 100Mbps is half what Labor predicted and 250Mbps connections are tiny."

                    LOL so that's why you have moved your excuse from 50% on 12/1 to to 25/5 lol

                    "Consider this if speed tiers were removed on FTTN, the average speed would be higher than FTTP.

                    Consider this if speed tiers were removed on FTTN, the average speed would be higher than CURRENT SPEED TEIR AVERAGE OF FTTP. there fixed it for you other wise you claim is false and misleading as usual. We wouldn't want to compare apples with apples.

                    But would you say the same in 10 years probably not lol

                    "The difference between the two plans will have little impact on end-users. >80% aren't ordering speeds greater than 25Mbps"

                    you claim but 65% are currently choosing the 25 or greater lol

                    "The small percentage requiring 100Mbps or faster have options: move or technology change. Considering the fact that technology change will almost certainly be less than stamp duty, staying put is an option."

                    so 15k-150k is less than stamp duty lol. But then the claim was only going to be $2.5k

                    "I blame the selfish fibre fanbois who belieived Labor's promise of 1Gbps, failed to read that it would be for <1% in 2026." you don't blame its the only this you keep complaining about even after 4 years of the MTM which expected that same number by 2020 not 2026 because you are a copper fanboi.

                    "I blame the selfish fibre fanbois who don't care that only 14% and shrinking are on the minimum recommended speed for the applications (eHealth, eLearning, etc.) that Labor used as justification for the NBN." Your copper fan boi model was expecting 30% on 100mbps by 2020. Now its just 10% but then they are only delivering an up 25Mbps network that cent even deliver speeds people have been willing to pay for.

                    "If you are complaining about technology change bieng unaffordable then sadly you are destined to be on the poor side of the digital divide created by Labor's plan,"

                    Wow the is copper fan boi again I didn't know labor was doing FOD wow

                    1. mathew42
                      FAIL

                      Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                      > Consider this if speed tiers were removed on FTTN, the average speed would be higher than CURRENT SPEED TEIR AVERAGE OF FTTP.

                      The current speed tiers have barely changed in 4 years and RSPs are not offering plans faster than 100Mbps. Labor expected that those on the lower speed tiers wouldn't migrate up and with the current market demand for unlimited plans RSPs have no incentive to offer faster plans.

                      > Wow the is copper fan boi again I didn't know labor was doing FOD wow

                      The digital divide was created by Labor's speed tiers and was expected by Labor as documented in the NBNCo Corporate Plan.

                      1. Jasonk

                        Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                        "The current speed tiers have barely changed in 4 years and RSPs are not offering plans faster than 100Mbps. Labor expected that those on the lower speed tiers wouldn't migrate up and with the current market demand for unlimited plans RSPs have no incentive to offer faster plans."

                        So how many was labor expecting on 12Mbps and how are on it atm. Since 50% was labor target and its way less than that then people have migrated up didn't they lol

                        "The digital divide was created by Labor's speed tiers and was expected by Labor as documented in the NBNCo Corporate Plan."

                        LOL Cooper fan boi status again I didn't know delivering a connecting to supported up 100Mpbs and more easily is creating a digital divide. Would you agree that using tech in your fanboi model that cant deliver the same speed to everyone is creating a digital divide

                        1. mathew42
                          FAIL

                          Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                          > Would you agree that using tech in your fanboi model that cant deliver the same speed to everyone is creating a digital divide

                          I'm not a fan of the FTTN deployment. I'm merely pointing out that due to Labor's decision to implement speed tiers the fibre fanbois are over-reacting.

                          Technology change offers the ability for anyone to upgrade their FTTN connection. Labor's expectations as recorded in the NBNCo Corporate Plan that <1% woudl have 1Gbps in 2026 make it very clear that only the rich could afford 1Gbps connections. For the top 1% in Australia, the cost of technology change means premium economy seats for their European Holiday instead of business class seats, assuming that they cannot arrange for the cost to be paid for by work.

                          Today, I could walk into the Tesla dealer and order a car, but only if I have the means to pay for it. Labor's speed tiers have created exactly the same situation. Theoretically, I could have a 1Gbps connection but the reality is that <14% are willing to pay the cost for 100Mbps and RSPs have determined demand doesn't exist for faster connections at a price that will be profitable.

                          1. Jasonk

                            Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                            'm not a fan of the FTTN deployment.

                            Yes you are. You mislead in your statements claiming fttn is faster than fttp.

                            Lol there you go again showing your fan boi status. As now your trying ti claim the $15k-$150k FOD is the same as paying $10-$20 more for faster speeds thats already aviable under fttp.

                            1. mathew42
                              FAIL

                              FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                              > You mislead in your statements claiming fttn is faster than fttp.

                              The point of observing that if speed tiers were removed from FTTN the average connection speed would be faster than FTTP is to point out how Labor's decision to implement speed tiers put a ball and chain around the performance of the NBN, resulting the FTTP network being unable to deliver the recommended 100Mbps speeds for the applications that Labor championed.

                              I refer you to Exhibit 9.26 Broadband Speed Requirements Vary for Different Applications in the NBNCo Corporate Plan (2010). The source of that information was the Cambridge Strategic Management Group.

                              1. Jasonk

                                Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                "The point of observing that if speed tiers were removed from FTTN the average connection speed would be faster than FTTP is to point out how Labor's decision to implement speed tiers put a ball and chain around the performance of the NBN,"

                                Wrong you on purpose aim to mislead as you always do. Apparently the average of FTTN is 78Mbps but only 60% of FTTN users can get faster than 50Mbps

                                "resulting the FTTP network being unable to deliver the recommended 100Mbps speeds for the applications that Labor championed. "

                                There you go again cooper fan boi misleading. Claiming FTTP cant even deliver 100Mbps now. But instead customer are given a choice fast and how much they want to pay for a service. Not a this is the only up to speed you can get if you want more you claimed by you either move house (lol) or pay a small fortune $15k-150K for FOD when we where told it would only cost $2.5k.

                                1. mathew42
                                  FAIL

                                  Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                  > Apparently the average of FTTN is 78Mbps but only 60% of FTTN users can get faster than 50Mbps

                                  If those unsourced numbers are correct, then it means that the 40% with lines delivering < 50Mbps must be closer to the 50Mbps speed to result in a 78Mbps average speed.

                                  > laiming FTTP cant even deliver 100Mbps now.

                                  The full quote points out that the cause is the speed tiers which mean only a small shrinking minority (14%) are accessing 100Mbps speeds.

                                  Of course you continue to consider yourself one of the special ones who will connect at 100Mbps and in doing so, provide evidence of your lack of care for the other 86% and fail to understand that 1Gbps will be reserved for an even more special group (the top 1%).

                                  1. Jasonk

                                    Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                    "If those unsourced numbers are correct, then it means that the 40% with lines delivering < 50Mbps must be closer to the 50Mbps speed to result in a 78Mbps average speed."

                                    lol

                                    T"he full quote points out that the cause is the speed tiers which mean only a small shrinking minority (14%) are accessing 100Mbps speeds."

                                    Did you or did you not say

                                    "resulting the FTTP network being unable to deliver the recommended 100Mbps speeds for the applications that Labor championed."

                                    Can or cannot FTTP deliver 100Mbps like you so have claimed. Yours own words "UNABLE TO".

                                    Becuase we both know it can or your doing is trying to misleading to make a point as usual. Labor FTTP has given people a CHOICE. something you have failed to comprehend. Compared the MTM.

                                    Here is another thing for CVC accc report has it at 37% of its revenue. Or how about most of the people RFS in FTTP are connected. Only Half for FTTN are why?

                                    1. mathew42
                                      FAIL

                                      Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                      > Becuase we both know it can or your doing is trying to misleading to make a point as usual.

                                      RSPs have been able to sell 1Gbps plans since December 2013, but they've chosen not to sell faster than 100Mbps. >80% of customers on FTTP have chosen to select 25Mbps or slower. Clearly there is large gap between what is therorically possible and reailty. Since the only difference between the speed tiers is price, in the absence of other evidence the principle of Occam's razor suggests that people are choosing speeds based on their financial circumstances.

                                      Labor designed a financial model for the NBN which as Labor expected in each revision of the NBNCo Corporate Plan to create a digital divide.

                                      The reason FTTN is being rolled out is that the IT community were selfishly prepared to accept the creation of a digital divide, expecting they would be on the right side of it.

                                      1. Jasonk

                                        Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                        LOL so RSP can choose but user cant what a load of BS. Misleading as always

                                        "Labor designed a financial model for the NBN which as Labor expected in each revision of the NBNCo Corporate Plan to create a digital divide."

                                        didn't know suppling a 100Mbps to everyone was creating a digital divide. You would thing building a network that gives you a lottery ticket on speed was creating a digital divide.

                                        Again rambling about a non existing digital divide of supplying 100mbps connection to everyone

                                        1. mathew42
                                          FAIL

                                          Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                          > Again rambling about a non existing digital divide of supplying 100mbps connection to everyone

                                          Your argument appears to be that as long as a service exists then it doesn't matter that >80% have decided that it is too expensive. My counter argument is that technology change means that 100Mbps (and faster) is available as long as you don't consider it too expensive.

                                          The logical conclusion to your point of view appears to be that fibre is the only solution and that even if >80% connected at 1Mbps as long as the special few could access the network at 100Mbps this is acceptable.

                                          The alternative is that you develop an argument for the minimum speed on the network and insist that the government provides this. It appears that you and most others are content as long as you personally are able to afford your desired speed.

                                          It should be noted that in the NBNCo Corporate Plan (2010) Labor defined the recommended minimum speed and then promptly ignored it.

                                          1. Jasonk

                                            Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                            "My counter argument is that technology change means that 100Mbps (and faster) is available as long as you don't consider it too expensive."

                                            No your counter argument is so supply tech that is delivering speeds people are choosing now for a network that isn't even finished yet. Which apparel cost 2 business class tickets it those tickets cost $7000 - $75000 to upgrade because it would be able to deliver speeds when it comes down in price.

                                            "The logical conclusion to your point of view appears to be that fibre is the only solution and that even if >80% connected at 1Mbps as long as the special few could access the network at 100Mbps this is acceptable."

                                            Since you blush off claiming CVC was the primary source of revenue for NBN with currently stands at only $38%. That capturing the small % of user that are willing to pay for the current fast speeds pays for the 80% of the one you keep banging on about and cant let go because its your only argument you have left because you cant use the 50% on 12Mbps anymore lol

                                            "The alternative is that you develop an argument for the minimum speed on the network and insist that the government provides this. It appears that you and most others are content as long as you personally are able to afford your desired speed."

                                            The minum speed was 100Mbps and was delivering this. But as you keep failing to understand it also gave the option for cheaper slower speeds for people who either don't need or didn't want to currently pay for the faster speeds. Now your copper fan boi model doesn't even deliver a min 25mbps. what is your suggesting of a mini speed the current network should deliver on a network that cant guarantee any speed at all?

                                            "It should be noted that in the NBNCo Corporate Plan (2010) Labor defined the recommended minimum speed and then promptly ignored it."

                                            OH really I didn't know delivering 100Mbps to everyone was ignoring the min speed. But unlike your copper fan boi model what was suppose to deliver MIn 25mbps for $29B for everyone by 2016 how did that turn out BTW. your insistence of spending $50B on a network that is only required to deliver an up to 25mbps for 1 second in a day with 5 drops a day when for only $15b more the a similar time frame had a better network that was suit for what may come with the taxpayer have to cover the cost of the next upgrade in 10 years time.

                                            1. mathew42
                                              FAIL

                                              Re: FTTN average speed faster than FTTP with Labor speed tiers

                                              My position remains unchanged that your fanboi selfishness has resulted in >80% on 25 Mbps or slower not receiving the benefits of the NBN that Labor used to justify the project.

                                              The reality is that if you are complaining about the cost of technology change then odds are you couldn't afford speeds faster than 100Mbps anyway.

                                              > The minum speed was 100Mbps and was delivering this. But as you keep failing to understand it also gave the option for cheaper slower speeds for people who either don't need or didn't want to currently pay for the faster speeds.

                                              As a response to Google Fibre, Labor upped the speed to 1Gbps. If 100Mbps is your benchmark then only FTTN is not delivering that consistently.

                                              Slower speeds (<100Mbps) deliver none of the benefits that Labor used to justify building the NBN.

                                              You seem to be ignoring the fact that way too many people find Labor's speed tiers unaffordable. The NBNCo Corporate Plan discusses affordabilty in detail.

                                              > the taxpayer have to cover the cost of the next upgrade in 10 years time

                                              Firstly, Labor's estimates on up-take suggest that those on the slowest speeds <25Mbps are unlikely to migrate to higher speeds. Moving or technolgy change are the options for those who can justify spending money for 1Gbps.

                                              Secondly, as per Labor's plan, in five years time the NBN is likely to have been privatised, so it won't be a tax payer expense.

                2. mathew42
                  FAIL

                  Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                  > You know planing for the future not for what people are choising now.

                  The problem with that argument is that Labor were very clear that they expected people on the lower speed tiers to not migrate up to higher speeds. In fact we find the demand for speed less than what Labor anticipated.

                  Greater than 80% of the community has determined that 25Mbps is an acceptable speed. I do not see you presenting a single argument to change this.

                  1. Jasonk

                    Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                    "In fact we find the demand for speed less than what Labor anticipated."

                    lol so there is 50% on 12/1 then lol

                    "Greater than 80% of the community has determined that 25Mbps is an acceptable speed. I do not see you presenting a single argument to change this."

                    that's your only argument except for the original 50% on 12/1 you used to bang on about.

                    but lets look at the figures. we know with fttp it cost them the same to deliver 12Mbps as 100Mbps. So if nbn wasn't making any money from the 12Mbps of $24 it would be making $3 from 25mbps connection and so on. So using current uptake figures

                    12Mbps of 660,992 users $0

                    25Mbps of 1,202,274 users $3.6M

                    50Mbps of 89,240 users $.89M

                    100mbps if 296,312 users $4.14

                    So the measly 14% of current users are making more money for the nbn than the 80% you keep banging on about

                    1. mathew42
                      FAIL

                      Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                      > So if nbn wasn't making any money from the 12Mbps of $24 it would be making $3 from 25mbps connection and so on. So using current uptake figures

                      Wrong assumption. NBNCo is loosing money on AVC. It is CVC where Labor intended for NBNCo to make it's profit. If you drop the speed tiers, then more people connect because it is cheapr and everybody downloads more because data arrives more quickly and at higher quality (e.g. 4K instead of 720i).

                      1. Jasonk

                        Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                        Wow Mathew you really have no idea do you.

                        Jxeeno shows a good comparison of your pathetic claim that cvc is the money maker

                        He MTM olf % claim like 30% on 100mbps by 2021. Where AVC revenue of $1.4B vs its CVC of just $0.8B

                        But please try again your doing great

                        1. mathew42
                          Facepalm

                          Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                          > He MTM olf % claim like 30% on 100mbps by 2021. Where AVC revenue of $1.4B vs its CVC of just $0.8B

                          Cutting the CVC revenue is a brilliant strategic move by the LNP. It menas that NBNco will be unable to cut AVC pricing because of the CVC revenue shortfall. This supresses demand for higher speed tiers, justifying the government's position that demand for higher speeds doesn't exist.

                          The reason I say brilliant is that the fibre fanbois complaining that FTTN can't deliver 1Gbps, fully support the cuts in CVC which make higher speed tiers more expensive. I suspect some LNP strategists occasionally have a chuckle over the gulibility of fibre fanbois.

                          1. Jasonk

                            Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                            Lol fanboi status again as cvc price would fall under labor fttp. But then its not surorise you have no idea. That pricing is just standard cvc pricing which delivers half of the AVC.

                            But then again your showing your fan boi status and even though i shown you cvc does not come close to making the same revune as avc you still think it does

                            1. mathew42
                              FAIL

                              CVC revenue to rise pushing up ARPU

                              > cvc price would fall under labor fttp

                              Agreed, but what you clearly don't realise is that while the unit price falls, that the total quantity rises sharply, so total revenue increases. Very clever Labor spin: CVC pricing will fall, but omit to mention that data usage is required to rise much more quickly, so that ARPU can rise.

                              > even though i shown you cvc does not come close to making the same revune as avc

                              You quote numbers from another fibre fanboi and consider this credible? Do you think that just once you could quote from a primary source that is publically available?

                              I refer you to Exhibit 9.3 Revenue Components of tne NBNCo Corporate Plan, where it clearly shows that CVC as a percentage of revenue starts very small and quickly grows. I refer you to the previous quotes from the NBNCo Corporate Plan that show the intent to grow revenue via CVC.

                              Note that I consider the plan to grow revenue via CVC one of the better ideas by Labor, because it reduces the digital divide and matches the charging model for other types of infrastructure.

                      2. Jasonk

                        Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                        Btw cvc price under labor as demand rises but then some make a profit on it acording to you

                        1. mathew42
                          FAIL

                          Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                          > Btw cvc price [falls] under labor as demand rises but then some make a profit on it acording to you

                          If you missed the word falls then the first half of your statement is correct, however there is a catch. When you read the NBNCo Corporate Plan (2016) on page 67 you will find a chart, if you study the chart two facts become clear:

                          • Starts at $20Mbps/Month when the average data usage is 30GB/Month and falls to $8Mbps/Month when the average data usage is 540GB/month.
                          • Price falls by 2.5 times, while the average data usage grows by 18 times = growth in revenue from CVC of 720% when accounting for price falls.
                          Further on in the document is a chart showing the growth in revenue from CVC.

                          On page 118 of the NBNCo Corporate Plan (2010) this statement appears:

                          Despite the movement of residential consumers up the speed curve shown in Exhibit 9.12, the growth in AVC (PIR) ARPU is relatively modest. This reflects the small price differential between AVC tiers, and the decline in prices for the higher tiers. However, the consequence of more End-Users moving to higher speed tiers is reflected in the significant rise in the contribution of the CVC to overall ARPU, as increased speed drives increased usage.

                          It is this statement that lead me to my position that if Labor had been bolder in their plan, they could have eliminated speed tiers and by their own assertion this would have resulted in higher usage, resulting in higher CVC revenue. Sadly, Labor chose the medicore timid option of speed tiers and data charges leading to the current situation.

                          Statements like this make me think that your knowledge of Labor's NBN plan barely extends beyond the headline '1Gbps FTTP' and fails to grasp all the compromises Labor made.

                          1. Jasonk

                            Re: Feed the nbn my icon.

                            Wow didnt know the CP16 was under labor but please try again

  3. rtb61

    Getting HFC 'er' no they will just be forced to use the Foxtel cable shared with ten times as many users, no new connection there and keep in mind a lot the the FTTN was in Foxtel regions, so it was bad enough to force a swap to FTTN.

    Also nearly all FTTP connections where in HFC zones, so that HFC thing, is simply ungraded Foxtel and the Government and NBN will just pretend they did something. The HFC connection cost, is the cost of buying that shit network, divided by the number of user to be connected and it keeps going up as more areas are swicthed out of the do nothing NBN plan and watch it all collapse in chaos as ten times as many people attempt to use an unupgraded network.

    1. mathew42

      May not be as big an issue as you fear with >80% ordering 25Mbps or slower thanks to Labor's speed tiers.

      1. Jasonk

        Lol mathew will be in less than ten years when we require the faster speeds with out having to do a homeloan to get a FOD. But thats all you can look at copper fan boi the network only half done and your looking at what people are xmchoosing now. Thank good we dont build roads to your standards.

        1. mathew42
          FAIL

          > Lol mathew will be in less than ten years when we require the faster speeds with out having to do a homeloan to get a FOD.

          What are you basing that 10 years on? Labor predicted <1% would have 1Gbps in 2026!

          As I've mentioned previously, technology change is the difference between the price of two business class (how the 1% tend to fly) and economy tickets to London.

          > Thank good we dont build roads to your standards.

          Roads are an interesting metaphor. Labor's pricing model is the equivalent of building a road system where >80% travel at 25Km/h or slower, 14% travel at 100Km and an empty lanes sit there for the mythical 1Gbps speeds.

          1. Jasonk

            Lol mathew well in just 3 years a report said most of the workd will have gigabit networks compared to our 25Mbps of ours.

            What a business class ticket cost $75,000 wow

            Interesting that we have a slow lane a medium lane and a fast lane thanks for that. If we had it your way most people would get a dirt road and would have to pay to tar it.

            1. mathew42
              FAIL

              > If we had it your way most people would get a dirt road and would have to pay to tar it.

              The problem is that it isn't most people it is a very small number: four percent!

              While I would prefer 1Gbps fibre to everyone, I'm also a realist. If >80% are choosing 25Mbps or slower and Labor's expectation was that this wouldn't change dramatically, then I accept that as the community standard this is all the government needs to build. If you look you'll find posts from me to when the NBNCo Corporate Plan was first delivered making the same point: that Labor expects speed tiers to create a digital divide.

              The fact that some vocal fibre fanbois are crying over the outcome of their own selfishness makes it easier to stump up for technology change and/or cost of moving to a suburb with FTTP.

  4. Carl D

    What's with all the NBN ads on TV the past couple of weeks? And the glossy NBN brochure that came in the mail last week (the same one that was in our West Australian newspaper a few days earlier)?

    How much is all this costing? Unbelievable!

    I guess the Federal government is in "damage control" mode regarding the NBN at the moment considering the mess that Malcolm Turnbull has made of it.

    And, anyone who doesn't believe it is a total mess only has to read through the NBN section of the Whirlpool forums for starters to see how bad it is.

    http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/142

    Fortunately (for me) I live in the last street in my Perth suburb (Rivervale) to get fibre to the premises 2 years ago. Funny thing - well, not really - is that we're in a complex of 4 duplexes which run from one street across to the next. The 6 units in 3 of the duplexes (including mine) at one end got fibre to the premises and the 2 units in the last duplex at the other end are getting fibre to the node which is only just being activated now, 2 years after we got our FTTP.

    And, our duplex is actually closer to the street that is getting fibre to the node but because our street address is the street with fibre to the premises, that's what we got. Thank goodness.

    1. mathew42

      > I guess the Federal government is in "damage control" mode regarding the NBN at the moment considering the mess that Malcolm Turnbull has made of it.

      I suggest you ignore the political spin and actually consider the facts:

      • Labor designed the NBN with speed tiers (AVC) & data usage (CVC)
      • Labor designed the NBN so that as data usage grew, people would pay more
      • MTM delivers speeds that are faster than >80% of speeds being ordered
      • CVC price has dropped from $20 under Labor to $14.40 average under Coalition at a faster rate than Labor planned.

      The biggest complaint with the NBN is congestion as identified by ACCC.

      Now, I'm going to guess as a fibre fanboi you are in the priviledged shrinking minority of <14% that are ordering speeds of 100Mbps.

  5. Myvekk

    I'm just happy to see I'm in an area that was switched from FTTN to FTTC. They were in the street run ning pullthroughs last week.

    Hapy, largely because it means I might be able to get better than 8Mbit/s sync speed. The copper around here is so bad that I can't keep synch with ADSL2 profiles & have to run a G.DMT (ADSL1) profile. As an added bonus, it usually synchs & transfers data faster than the ADSL2 profiles do...

    People who are in the areas that already got connected with FTTN have been having lots of issues with loss of synch low synch speeds & poor throughput due to the poor condition of the old copper.

    1. mathew42
      FAIL

      > People who are in the areas that already got connected with FTTN have been having lots of issues with loss of synch low synch speeds & poor throughput due to the poor condition of the old copper.

      According to this article, only 6% of FTTN connections are less than <25Mbps. Interestingly 32% are > 75Mbps.

      I'd suggest that congestion caused by ISPs not purchasing sufficient CVC to sell unlimited plans.

      If you have a problem with FTTN, first mount a convincing argument why the minimum speed should be 100Mbps. This would then exclude FTTN as an option.

      1. Myvekk

        <quote>According to this article, only 6% of FTTN connections are less than <25Mbps. Interestingly 32% are > 75Mbps.</quote>

        I'm sure that is correct, and agree. I'm not arguing with you because I'm not talking in general. I'm talking about the specific local area FTTN connections that have had quite a few issues with it, so would be over-represented in that 6%.

        <quote>I'd suggest that congestion caused by ISPs not purchasing sufficient CVC to sell unlimited plans.</quote>

        I also agree that congestion due to unsufficient capacity on the part of the RSPs is the main cause of low speed throughput, but that doesn't explain constant dropouts and low SYNCH speed, which is what the locals complained of. Both of which occurr on ADSL, ADSL2/2+ connections as well.

        I have no problem with FTTN, as long as the copper is up to the task. Sadly in my area it is not even up to ADSL2/2+ and those first ones who got the FTTN connections have paid the price. The upside for the rest of us is that the nbn has realised just how poor a condition the copper is in & has upgraded us to FTTC. And brought the installation forward by a year. Bonus!

  6. Colin Tree

    bumhole of the Gold Coast

    and being the bumhole, we got FTTN.

    We're a forgotten corner of the Gold Coast, and as I feared, we got the bum deal NBN connection.

    I will stay on our old ADSL as long as possible, see how the early adopters go and if it fails in the first good rain.

    Is there anywhere we can find the CVC for each ISP ?

  7. Jon B

    Why so hung about speed tiers

    @Matthew42 We have speed tiers in NZ UFB, and it hasn't seemed to have damaged the system in the way you describe. I'm on 50/10, previously on 100/20 and those who want it can get 1000/500 for not a huge increase in the wholesale price from Chorus. Network build is chugging along nicely.

    1. mathew42
      Meh

      Re: Why so hung about speed tiers

      It is a philosophical view point basied on my experiences of ADSL when Telstra was the only provider and the options were 256/64Kbps, 512/128Kbps or 1500/256Kbps. Most people opted for the slower speeds and this limited even VoIP without careful QoS configuration.

      Secondly, Labor's justification for the NBN was services like eHealth & eLearning, but as the 2010 Corporate Plan points out the minimum recommended speed for this is 100Mbps. Currently in Australia on the fixed NBN <14% have these speeds.

      Thirdly, the FTTP network is capable of delivering 1Gbps, but the pricing model puts those speeds out of reach of all but the very wealthy. As outlined by Labor the NBN should source the majority of it's revenue from usage not connection fees, as this is the area of greatest growth.

      > We have speed tiers in NZ UFB, and it hasn't seemed to have damaged the system in the way you describe.

      The Kiwis have a very different model to that established by Labor, including structural separation of the monopoly provider instead of creating a new monopoly. I've not looked at NZ in depth, because first people need to acknowledge the mistakes Labor made in the pricing model and then we can look at solutions.

      > those who want it can get 1000/500 for not a huge increase in the wholesale price from Chorus

      The wholesale price difference in Australia between 100Mbps ($38) and 1Gbps ($150) is $112, which some would consider reasonable. However since NBNCo made plans faster than 100Mbps available in December 2013 not a single RSP has made plans faster than 100Mbps available at retail. MyRepublic have run a marketing stunt for 1Gbps limited to 100 customers but that is it.

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