The end
There goes the last Microsoft programme (apart from the actual windows OS) that I use. Really useful when you want to crop, resize and change format of an image. Nothing I can't do in the Gimp but simpler and quicker with Paint.
Satya Nadella had us all fooled but good with his kinder, gentler, people-empowering Microsoft act. But now we can see the company's reverted to type by threatening to kill venerable graphics app Paint after the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update. A new list of “Features that are removed or deprecated in Windows 10 Fall Creators …
Agreed.
Paint is exactly the kind of graphics app I use because i'm crap at art, but to be able to quickly draw a diagram (as I did last week to explain the difference between parallel and serial battery connections) that was crude but illustrated the point perfectly.
Try doing that in photoshop.
Ditto with windows movie maker.
I bet paint is about 20 meg, FFS MS, just keep it.
For shits and giggles if *nothing* else.
"On Win XP it's under 400Kb"
AND it WORKS BETTER because there's no GOSH DARNED FORNICATING FECAL-FACED DUCK-COITUS PILE OF EXCREMENT RIBBON BAR on it!!!
I was _VERY_ disappointed with Paint in Win 7. I stopped using it.
Watch Micro-shaft make it a UWP "the Store" "CRapp" and include ADS in it.
snipping tool is what you need for taking screenshots. It's there on all supported versions of windows. It has built in tools for drawing on the screenshots. The newest versions added delayed activation so you can capture tooltips or menus in your screenshots, and lasso selection for ... not sure I've never wanted a badly hand drawn circular snapshot.
Actually, the snipping tool isn't "there on all supported versions". It's in Windows 7-10, sure, but not in Windows Server versions.
What I use for taking screenshots is Greenshot. (getgreenshot.org), which beats crap out of the Snipping Tool anyway - the editing tools are both easier to use and more powerful.
But the point is, neither of these things is guaranteed to be available on every machine. Paint - currently - is.
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"but often I need to paint out personal information from inside the image too "
Use snip then, it has tools specifically for this scenario. In fact, I've not seen a single example in this thread where functionality isn't already better elsewhere. Perhaps Microsoft need to run an educational campagne. Maybe this is that campagne...
Re: Kubla Cant
In less time than it took you to enter your ridicule, you could have Google the answer.
French: campagne English: campaign
cam·paign kam'pan/ noun
noun: campaign; plural noun: campaigns
1. a series of military operations intended to achieve a particular objective, confined to a particular area, or involving a specified type of fighting.
Au Revoir
Alt-Printscreen
Start-Run MSPAINT (etc
That was about the first thing I liked about macOS: no need to have a paint program in between.
That said, in the days I still used Windows I used the fact that the system had to be polluted with .NET anyway to my advantage and installed paint.net - MUCH better.
But yes, there goes another one. First EDLIN, now this..
:)
Paint is great for putting red circles around whatever you need to highlight though, not just cropping. It was guaranteed to be on all machines too.
Sure paint.net is a good tool but when you are uaing machines that are locked down and cant install 3rd party software then paint will do.
Stupid MS
"...I can't believe anyone spent time creating that, but vive la differance, I guess..."
I can. If you take users of MS Office now - ones that have used it for the last decade (or longer in many cases) and plump any version prior to 2007 in front of them and they would ask where anything was.
I've tried it.
Other comments along the lines of being ugly are also mentioned.
If you want LibreOffice to really be taken up then it has to be compatible with* and even mirror newer versions of MS Office.
*Yeah I know...even MS can't guarantee compatibility at times.
> For shits and giggles if *nothing* else.
+1
Sure you can use snipping tool for screenshots. Gimp is great but hardly opens quickly and isn't necessarily on every machine you find yourself in front of. Sure Irfanview is the Notepad++ of graphics tools, but seriously, why not keep it around paint? I don't think anyone wants new features in it. Just let it live out it's days.
Next they'll be pulling calc.exe
Actually I've just looked it up, and for some reason I cannot fathom it's around 6.5 Megabytes of code!
I mean, yes, it's got some new feature that Paint on real Windows (i.e. Windows 3.x) didn't have, but I doubt the PNG and JPEG code takes up 6.4 Megabytes.
Edit: That's on Windows 7.
"I suspect 6MB is static linking to relatively recent MFC, while retaining all the symbols required to make the ribbon work."
I've noticed that MFC for DevStudio 2010 is WAY PIGGY compared to what it was for DevStudio '98 and I have yet to figure out why, or what benefits you actually get. That's with all of the ".Not" crap NOT linked up, and all of that. I think Micro-shaft intentionally polluted it with worthless GARBAGE and as such, it's becoming excess poundage to lug around.
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"Paint is exactly the kind of graphics app I use because i'm crap at art, but to be able to quickly draw a diagram (as I did last week to explain the difference between parallel and serial battery connections) that was crude but illustrated the point perfectly.
Try doing that in photoshop.
Ditto with windows movie maker.
I bet paint is about 20 meg, FFS MS, just keep it."
^ Absolutely this. It's a straightforward and easy to use image editor and this decision is bonkers. The email addresses for the MS top dogs (see CEO Email) are out there so let them know what you think before it's too late.
"^ Absolutely this. It's a straightforward and easy to use image editor and this decision is bonkers."
You have an implicit assumption. That because Paint is of benefit to people like us who treat it like part of the operating system for all sorts of useful things that this is something Microsoft would want.
1. So what are Microsoft getting out of this by indicating that they are removing it?
2. Do they in fact want to remove it or just create a reaction?
3. By removing a tool we use Microsoft make old time users less effective, is this what they want?
If you look at what Microsoft and Apple are doing with computers it's as if they want to either cripple the machines or cripple the people who have got fairly good at using them. These wounds won't affect people who are totally clueless nor people who are super smart who can do anything and everything on a computer. It just affects normal people with hard won computer competency.
I'm crap at art too, so this video of somebody using MS paint to draw the Mona Lisa was even more impressive...
Is there not a way to grab the program itself and re-install it post-update?
Deprecated doesn't mean dead.. QuickTime7.6.6 has been deprecated since Snow Leopard in favor of QuickTimeX and I use the former *to this day* with the Perian codec pack installed, even under the High Sierra beta - it's my go to for anything not h265.
No reason to panic at all. Just copy good old mspaint.exe, back it up to extra safe (encrypt the file in case MS liked to pull fast one) and keep using it. It does not depend on any external files (it works by itself in WinPE). Besides this there's already Internet community repackaging Windows accessories for user not keen on using blocky substitutes.
One should not cave in to MS force feeding us diet of crApps.
"loading images at half resolution"
From testing, IfranView load image based on screen width by default, which is good if you need a quick good preview for large size image.
If you want full resolution, go to View > Original Size (Ctrl + H) which gives you the full resolution. In our case, the image is way too big for the screen.
Paint is useful because you know it is installed in each and every Windows machine, and if you need to take a screenshot and then save it - maybe cropping out useless parts, and saving it in a decent format, you know you have it available and you don't need to look for and maybe download - if you can - another simple graphic applications.
Although I know most users prefer to paste it into Word and Excel and send you a document with a single image within....
"Although I know most users prefer to paste it into Word and Excel and send you a document with a single image within...."
> I too liked it for manipulating screenshots, until I discovered Snipping Tool buried in the start menu. Why hadn't I run across this before?
Have you ever tried Windows-R, type "psr", Enter?
PSR = Problem Steps Recorder. But what it really does is to document a series of user interface steps with multiple screenshots, showing mouse and documenting what was clicked.
Yep, agree 100%. We try to be good tecchies and document everything, and MSpaint is the go to app for tweaking screenshots. I think MS sometimes forget the decades of muscle memory some of us tecchies have, many things are just instinct now (and this is why Windows 8 jarred so much, instead of just doing stuff, we had to re-explore the OS, which just made every task take longer).
Alternatives will only replace it if they are always there when you need them.
Like Edlin. Many, many moons ago I used to rely on that when offering technical support. It was safer and simpler to guide someone over the phone using Edlin (less chance of random edits or uncertainty over where the cursor was). Or you could just create a script and have them execute it by redirecting stdin.
And it's why - despite shifting to Windows a couple of decades ago - I still have a fondness for VI. I don't even use the cursor keys with it because when I first used Unix it was on dumb terminals (Wyse-60 mainly) and you couldn't be sure that the 'clever' keys were correctly mapped. I could even use the Ex mode back in the day but concede that most of that is lost from memory now.
I have taken stick from modern IT guys for not using the cursor keys with VI but got my own back just under a year ago. A system got damaged and lost its advanced key mappings. So I got called to help sort it out because I could still navigate and edit :)
The moral of the story: Add things. Don't take them away ;)
"I have taken stick from modern IT guys for not using the cursor keys with VI but got my own back just under a year ago. A system got damaged and lost its advanced key mappings."
This.
I had one of these moments a few months ago. I think the remote session was expecting a Sun keyboard, which I don't have.
It was ages since I had used the vi move-by-character keys, but knowing they are there, all I needed to remember was 'hjkl' and 5 minutes later I was rattling away as if I used it every day.
I just recently started to use Paint.NET (4.0.16 IIRC) and a couple of words of caution:
If using on a Win7 32-bit machine ( 4GB w/ with no other apps running),
- Open 60MB file,
- Copy selection,
- Paste selection into new file.
- Close 60 MB file,
- Attempt to open different 60 MB file ---> Out of memory (WTF)
- Restart Paint.NET
Silly me, and here I thought .NET apps didn't have to worry about managing memory..
This app has been under development for several years (maybe close to a decade) and I can't be the first one to run this use case scenario..
I guess forcing everyone to move to 64-bit windows is an easy way to hide memory problems.
> Silly me, and here I thought .NET apps didn't have to worry about managing memory..
I've inherited a lot of code where the author assumed that to be true. The .net GC is very good, but it isn't magical. The number of times I have seen event handlers hooked up then never unsubscribed, which prevents your views being released for garbage collection. Argh. Those and timers. But that's ok because IIS can recycle the worker process once it gets too high - something they honestly thought was a good solution.
The core X Window screen capture program is xwd (X Window Dump). Though some Desktop Environments offer better apps. In my DE for instance I simply have to hit the Print Screen key to get a screen capture. Which for me is an improvement over typing the command. Anyhow the rabbit hole that is X runs deep. Very few know it today.
Download PaintShop Pro version 7 somewhere. It should be free. I helped to develop versions 7, 8 and 9. 8 has multiple bugs and 9 also has some but 7 is rock solid. Once Corel took over it all sucks. PSP 7 does not require any type of registration. It will ask but you may say no. Corel did not pay for version 7 and JASC retired. (Just Another Software Company)
I still use PSP 7 since it is super easy, quick and simple on the surface. But a bit deeper it can do many very nice things. I use 9 sometimes since it runs Python.
@OldCrow
In fairness, I don’t think that Windows can be described as a monopoly any more, or Microsoft’s practices as monopolistic. You have a choice, in a way that there hasn’t been a choice since the halcyon days of the 1980s. You can vote with your feet and buy a Chromebook. You can install Linux (or, if you must have something Windowsy, ReactOS). You can have a Mac - or eschew desktop OSs altogether and buy a tablet with iOS or Android.
When Windows was installed on more than 99% of computers then yes, it was a monopoly. But now, as its market share has collapsed below 20% when all personal computing devices are taken into account, no. I don’t think you can reasonably call it a monopoly.
As for MS Paint, it was originally released with Windows 1 in 1985 as a ‘competitor' to MacPaint. Apple quietly put a bullet into MacPaint in 1989 - its useful life long outlived as more capable alternatives became available. The world is awash with simple, capable, paint programs - the only surprise is that Microsoft has taken this long to follow Apple’s example.
"I don’t think that Windows can be described as a monopoly any more, or Microsoft’s practices as monopolistic."
that's assuming they're not still SQUEEZING THE HARDWARE VENDORS to FORCE them to sell everything with a windows license, regardless, then force it to be WIn-10-nic, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah, NOT monopolistic practices. On WHAT PLANET??
@bombastic bob
Not being a hardware vendor, perhaps I have an overly simplistic view of the world. But, the way I see it (which I concede may be based on false assumptions and a whole stack of optimism), the hardware vendors don’t need to play along with Microsoft. A vendor could conceivably say ‘actually, we’re not going to make any Windows computers - we’ll supply our machines pre-installed with Linux or ChromeOS’. Of course, if a buyer wants Windows then they can still buy, at full cost, a boxed copy of Windows - but otherwise they can save a bob or two and have an OS which may be just as functional for what they need to do.
In fact, this is pretty much exactly what Eight Virtues, System76 and ZaReason do. I imagine that this model will become more prevalent in the future, especially now that Linux has proven itself on the desktop.
Actually, now I come to think of it, this is also exactly what Apple does, Raspberry Pi (the latest being perfectly capable machines for what most people need to do), BeagleBone, Udoo, Parallela and PixiePro do too. In fact, I guess that you could add to that all the members of the Open Source Hardware Association.
the fact that there are SOME hardware makers shipping with Linux isn't really the point. It's the monpolistic "deals" that Micro-shaft makes in order to strong-arm the largest PC vendors into doing what they want, i.e. NOT selling anything without a Micro-shaft Win-10-nic license.
The few hardware vendors who don't do that don't sell ANY machines pre-loaded with Windows. It would be too expensive if they did. It's sorta like going into a grocery store, and seeing the price as DOUBLE what the 'discount' price is, if yo have a store card. which is free, of course, but it tracks what you do. What do most people do? Get the card and use it. And so Micro-shaft does a "discount deal" but ONLY if they sell a copy of windows with EVERY! SINGLE! MACHINE! they sell. The windows computers are cheaper, of course, but the Linux ones end up being more expensive because of that. And so on.
Time for some TRUST BUSTING and anti-MONOPOLY actions. You can't just have SOME vendors not playing Micro-shaft's game. It has to become ILLEGAL for them to do it at ALL.
@bombastic bob
Cheaper than what? Cheaper than a Chromebook? Cheaper than a Raspberry Pi?
The thing is that Microsoft’s tactics only work if there’s an advantage to the computer manufacturer playing along. In the past there was an almost unassailable advantage - favourable pricing on Windows. Currently there may well still be an advantage - but that advantage is dwindling. Which brings me to:
Time for some TRUST BUSTING and anti-MONOPOLY actions. You can't just have SOME vendors not playing Micro-shaft's game. It has to become ILLEGAL for them to do it at ALL.
I disagree - I don’t think that the law is necessary here (well, except for lawyers keen on earning another fat fee). I think that market forces will do this - the tide is turning.
It’s fashionable to hate Microsoft, just as it’s fashionable to hate Apple (Google, Facebook, Amazon - insert whipping boy of choice here). The truth is that they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I quite like Satya Nadella’s vision for Microsoft - I find it infinitely more preferable to the cock up that Ballmer was making of it. Especially now that Linux is being brought into the fold, and I can imagine the day when Windows is a shell on top of Linux. I even like Windows 10. But I’m not a huge fan of masses of bundled software - it leads to laziness and lowest common denominator applications. After all, why install a competitor to MS Paint - even a better one - if MS Paint is bundled? Similarly, I know people who use Notepad even though Notepad++ is infinitely better (and still free).
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Pick the one that you like best and then enjoy it. No need to get religious about it, or worry about what might or might not be wrong over the fence. These things all seem to sort themselves out over time.
Personally, I quite like Satya Nadella’s vision for Microsoft - I find it infinitely more preferable to the cock up that Ballmer was making of it. Especially now that Linux is being brought into the fold, and I can imagine the day when Windows is a shell on top of Linux.
I'm afraid I'm not buying that one. I've "experienced" Microsoft from when it started to flog MS-DOS on 5¼" floppies, and over that time I have seen enough behaviour to prevent me extending ANY trust to their activities, also because I know from experience how static corporate culture is.
It will take a lot longer to convince me that this isn't yet another "extend, embrace, extinguish" process being played out (the very fact that they thought up that phrase gives you an idea of mindset).
I prefer to run Linux without Microsoft's "help" (and license fees), thanks.
"It's the monpolistic "deals" that Micro-shaft makes in order to strong-arm the largest PC vendors into doing what they want, i.e. NOT selling anything without a Micro-shaft Win-10-nic license."
Your whole premise is wrong. At least Dell and HP sell some laptops with FreeDOS, and Dell also had (has?) Ubuntu preinstall option.
"At least Dell and HP sell some laptops with FreeDOS, and Dell also had (has?) Ubuntu preinstall option."
4 thumbs down already, but no-one has the balls to tell why...
I was just stating a fact - you can buy a Dell or HP (and others) without the MS tax, so Mr Bombastic's 'NOT selling anything without a Micro-shaft Win-10-nic license' is obviously just FUD.
@Sandtitz
Here. Have an upvote from me. I wouldn't worry about all the down votes though (look at the reaction to my comments on this thread - very negative, and I can't understand why either (although, since there's no explanation either, I don't care too much))
I can think of some very good reasons to abandon Paint (and any other software extraneous to the OS), not least for reasons of security and developer time required to maintain the software. But I suspect that many of the commentards downvoting you are newbies or have only a passing familiarity with IT (although, doubtless, they'd claim great expertise). The Register used to attract Programmers, Sand Benders, Ops and Sys Admins. Now there also seem to be noobs and gamerz here for the lulz (whatever that means).
Like Viz, the Register just isn't as good as it used to be! Won't stop you coming though, will it? Me neither.
Let it go, 45RPM - these fora do seem to attract Mr/Miss/<insert your own title> Angry.
I got downvoted for pointing out that LIbreOffice now includes the option to have a ribbon bar.
I can only assume that, despite the fact I was simply pointing out an actual, factual, truth, that the ones who are still (ten years+) down the line foaming at the mouth of the temerity of MS to have added it with the release of Office 2007 - usually the same ones espousing the virtues of choice - hadn't noticed and will now have to turn that anger onto LibreOffice.
Me, personally, could see it actually helping the adoption of LibreOffice as I said earlier.
Anyway...let 'em vent and downvote mate. Life's too short.
@TonyJ I have no problem with differing opinions. By and large I've always been pretty pro Microsoft, certainly pre Win 8. I use a Winphone and wouldn't want anything from Google or Apple. But your comment about Libre Office's option for a Ribbon is 180 degrees away from the point you try to make. i.e. Libre Office has an option. whereas the point that sets so many here's teeth gnashing ( ignoring for the moment the ones who have to be acknowledged never have anything good to say about MS on principle) is that removal of options. That MS makes a decision to deprecate, and worryingly may kill, a simple and useful tool - Paint. That it changes or removes practical functionality to replace it with stuff that no one much wants. That where a function, like the Start Menu is almost good enough it chooses to remove it, instead of improving it ( or at least leaving it alone) and when forced to replace it, chooses to make it more unwieldy and less user friendly than it was before. And it is a mess. Because programmes can install an entire folder in an alphabetic location but a casual user would have no idea how to move the item to where they want ot expect to find it - and even the expert user can't move, let alone hide or uninstall stuff that Microsoft wants to impose. As to that Ribbon. The point of contention for the Ribbon, like the Start Menu, is that it is cluttered and messy to navigate, but the functionality that allowed users to simplify it easily was taken away from something that isn't fundamentally all that different from what went before. The real difference now is that menu items can't be hidden individually. The nearest you can come to it would be to create manually, item by item, a copy of a given menu that contains just the bits you want ( a long and tedious process) and then hide the original one in its entirety. I am never ever going to use INSERT - Links -Cross Reference. Never. Not ever. Under any circumstances. But it can not be taken away. It has to be there, like so many other items I'll never use, that just add clutter.
@45RPM
True, that part may have been uncalled for. As they are, in theory at least, no longer a monopoly.
Point still stands, in that with 10-S they'll start charging for what used to be the "Accessories" menu.
If submitting your software to the store is no longer free (at some point in the future, if it's still free), then there will be no free replacements either.
"Mom & Pop" will never have the know-how to install Linux. Most of today's youths don't have it either, since it's not necessary for survival in the short-term.
@OldCrow
I know. I know. I’m an eternal optimist. But I can't imagine a day when there’ll be no free software on the Windows Store. In fact, other than the registration fee, I can’t imagine a day when Microsoft will charge per app submission (perhaps I’m not very imaginative). At a time when ChromeOS (and its successors) are breathing down Microsoft’s neck in the low cost space, and Apple are squeezing them at the high end, I can’t see Microsoft doing anything which might lessen Windows’ desirability.
As to “Mom & Pop”, I agree that they probably don’t have the know how to install Linux. But there are businesses which will happily supply a pre-built Linux machine (and, once installed, it’s perfectly easy to use - my mum, a confirmed technophobe, happily uses her Linux laptop without even knowing that it’s Linux - I built it, she uses it. End of.), and it’s just as easy as buying a Windows machine to buy a Mac or ChromeBook - you don’t even have to go to a specialist store, John Lewis will sell you one!
"(or, if you must have something Windowsy, ReactOS)"
I think not since ReactOS is still on a par with Windows 10 itself in terms of stability. If you want something stable that gives you a Windows feeling and that also has a load of free apps, go with Linux Mint Mate with the Redmond theme.
"In fairness, I don’t think that Windows can be described as a monopoly any more, or Microsoft’s practices as monopolistic. You have a choice, in a way that there hasn’t been a choice since the halcyon days of the 1980s"
I made my choice. I wanted Windows 7, so I bought a Windows 7 laptop complete with paint and Photoshop.
Against my wishes and without consent MS have removed Windows 7 and, bit by bit, are removing the software packages I want to use, including the old version of Photoshop that I'm licenced for.
@Adam 52
I'm not saying that they always behave well, or do the right thing (although, in my experience, they can generally be trusted) - just that they aren't a monopoly any more.
As you say, you had a choice - and you made it. While it lasted, at least, I hope that it was the right one for you. Of course, you could have stuck with Windows 7 - and, presumably, a still working copy of Photoshop.
You could also have chosen to buy a Mac (with Photoshop) or Linux (with something else). So badly behaved, perhaps, but not a monopoly.
Until discovering that (almost) nobody ever actually implemented it.
Rather like OpenGL "Select" mode I guess. Nobody did it properly and it was completely broken in recent implementations.
Though I do seem to recall some talk about ASICs and FPGAs to do network stack DMA, which implies it may not be as dead as it looks.
Thank you. I was just about to post this very concept but you beat me to it. Enjoy a pint.
While I'm blind & can't see the screen dump to edit it, I can hot key Copy&Paste the screen dump into Paint, Save As, give it a file name, & email the resulting file in less time than it would take to even LAUNCH something "better" (a more powerful graphics editing program).
Simple, fast, & easy to use. When all you need is the basics, it makes no fekkin sense to have to bring up something that's so overpowered it's like firing up the Ferrari to drive the three blocks to the corner market for a loaf of bread.
*Shaking head in disgust*
I'm glad I didn't bother to "upgrade" to Win10, I'd be bloody well pissed at all the functionality MS has removed in their headlong sprint to flush themselves down the bog.
*Golf clap*
Great job SatNad, you're the perfect leader to steer the Titanic.
While I'm blind & can't see the screen dump to edit it, I can hot key Copy&Paste the screen dump into Paint, Save As, give it a file name, & email the resulting file in less time than it would take to even LAUNCH something "better" (a more powerful graphics editing program).
Crap, my apologies for overlooking your needs. You are going to need some hotkey screenshot utility now.
You would probably not have much use for the macOS screen dump keystroke either as I'm not sure there's a way to manually set the filename. It's generally "Screenshot(screen)" + date/time, with "screen" present if you have more than one monitor.
I agree that Windows should include a usable backup program (given that nearly everyone should to do backups, though most don't bother and some don't even know they need to until they're in trouble), but still, there has to be a point where "If they remove it from the base Windows installation, no one will x" ends, though. Windows isn't installed to only run the programs it came with. They can't include everything, and if the weak ones they DO include end up being the baseline, that's a pretty low standard. What if WordPad was the baseline for what we expect in a word processor?
That doesn't mean MS should delete them from the baseline install, just that it's not a good practice to depend on MS including stuff because unsavvy users won't ever install something important otherwise. Sometimes even if they are installed, it's still no good.
In my case, I tried the Windows 7 x64 system backup years ago, but it freaked out when it saw that I had a <2TB GPT volume. Four years after Windows first supported GPT formatting, it still couldn't handle my GPT disk.
That moment when you clicked Print Screen and immediately open / paste / save works wonder in MS Paint. It works across windows pre-installed with it's light weighted resource. Now Microsoft wants to completely remove it... sign.
Yes, Paint 3D does have a lot of special features. That's exactly why it also takes a lot more resources to load. Talk about using a crane to hammer a nail. Not to mention that 3D vectors are different from pixel art. Maybe Microsoft should try to write a report in Paint 3D and tell us how that felt.
From the article:
Interestingly, Microsoft's also hanging the axe over its System Image Backup (SIB) Solution, advising that it's time to “use full-disk backup solutions from other vendors.”
I find this mystifying.
I'm a long time Windows user, but look on with some envy at Apple's Time Machine. Over there in FruityVille it seems trivially easy to back up a computer, restore an entire machine, etc. It all seems very well integrated, a standard part of the OS. Whereas on Windows it's always been, well to put it frankly, shit. And now it's looking like it will become non-existant. Non-existant shit is normally better than existant shit, especially when it's all over your laptop, but just occassionally some manure is required.
Rely on third party solutions? Doesn't that tell MS something about what they're doing wrong?!?!?!
The thing to remember here is that EVERYTHING other than the core OS is an add-on in the eyes of MS and can be dropped at any time, this may be a result of the browser wars thing but more probably just the way the company split it out - 'you guys make the OS work and you other guys write the other bits' kind of thing . That includes backups, security, screen management etc whereas most other OS look beyond 'in a perfect world' to include some features for managing the device and recovery as part of the core. They don't have to be used but if you do they are fully integrated and...just work.
Re; Kevin Johnston
This is a fundamental point. An OS should an operating system. i.e. contain the basic functionality to make a computer usable. This means the programmes that boot the machine and allow software to run and a few essential utilities that need to be universal, to ensure the availability of some basic functionality. Like a simple text editor, graphics editor/screen shot tool, file manager, a zip utility and arguably a minimum security system. We can argue about the precise requirements. But these elements need to be consistently available and reasonably simple. They are the things that make an operating system work. OTOH an OS should not be mandating the user's choice of working programmes. Microsoft seem to be trying to remove the former, while increasing trying to force the latter. Including adding in all kinds of crap that they want us to use and preventing us removing it. (Mixed reality portal anyone?) I'm guessing that they want to try to create a closed system that ties users in to their products.
It does. Very simply, they don't effing care about the users. They know that they have them all over a barrel and can be raped at will because there is far too much resistance to change in most businesses so Windows and all that goes with it are locked in and are ready for raping (financially).
Naturally, there will be pockets of resistance but these will soon be removed by the MS Stormtroopers.
I'm glad that I'm totally MS free these days. It was a great relief when my jod was sent to India and I retired leaving all that Windows mess behind me. Still I can't complain too loudly as I earned a living from that crap for the last 20 odd years of my working life.
Linux and MacOS are where it is at for me these days.
Over there in FruityVille it seems trivially easy to back up a computer, restore an entire machine, etc. It all seems very well integrated, a standard part of the OS
I wouldn't call it perfect but it does the job well, also because it gives users access to the time slices in a fairly easy to use way and - VERY important - it tolerates the backup target being absent, in which case it buffers the backups locally until it can see the target disk again and then unspools it cache. If you set up the wireless drive for it it will basically do all of that without the need for ANY user input. I'm just picky in that I like a secondary restore-from-the-bare-metal backup (leftover from my Windows days where I'd use Acronis True Home), so I run Carbon Copy Cloner every week, but in theory that is overkill. Even that is automated: I've set it up that it whinges at me if it can't find the backup disk and it starts the backup as soon as I plug it in.
I'd take one step back though, and observe that that free OS comes with enough facilities to make the hardware you just bought useful, straight out of the box, and I think Microsoft is at risk of losing that if they go on like this.
OE wasn't bad, if you made sure to mark everything as being 'high risk' security-wise. I forget what the 'zone' was called. had to disable scripting AND messenger [it had really bad security holes], and not view as HTML. I still do that with T-bird, which is in many ways similar to OE.
So yeah, use T-bird if you liked OE.
But M-shaft shouldn't have abandoned it, either.
Noooo!
I use this a lot with screen capture. Nothing graphical, mind. Mostly for just capturing textual information - the Quick Watch from Visual Studio is a common subject. But it's also a quick and easy way to stick an arrow on or draw a circle around something when I'm talking about issues with a UI.
"I suck at photoshop and have use MS Paint for 10 years" and publicished a Graphic Novel done all in MS Paint
So what MS are going to do is remove a package that anyone can use to express their artistic side.
https://digitalsynopsis.com/design/microsoft-paint-pat-hines-ebook-illustrations/
Because there is surely some rich irony in the fact that while M$ continually add to Windows "features" which are basically designed to lock in the users and steal as much of their data and behaviour as conceivably possible, they are also removing the few remaining useful things that people actually benefited from.
Yes, Paint is a bit shyte, but for processing a quick screenshot, especially so you can flip it onwards to someone else, with minimum keystrokes or effort, it was genuinely handy. If you consider the minimal effort M$ put into Paint and its small footprint, it's probably better bang-for-buck than the unutterable garbage that they turned Visio into. Notwithstanding that all M$ software has generally got nastier with ribbon bars, bloat and intrusiveness ....
If the M$ policy is "Drive away users, and especially precipitate a mass exodus when W7 support stops"* then obviously, every little counts.
* Sticking with W7 now for just one last piece of software, because (apropos of this topic, oddly enough) Paint.net isn't available on *ix. Who knows, by the time W7 is unsupportable, GIMP's UI will have stopped sucking too.
"A bit shyte" is the point. It's adding all the feature-richness that makes stuff hard to use. Gimp, Photoshop, Blender. All non-intuitive because the feature-richness gets in the way.
FWIW the most feature rich drawing pad I ever found that was delightfully intuitive and easy to pick up was the old Macromedia Flash IV stage. I still fire it up if I need to draw something moderately complex quickly. Need a hemisphere? Draw a circle, cut it in half and shade. Five operations.
Tools like notepad, calc, paint, wordpad etc. have been woefully underdeveloped for years. Unacceptably so in some cases.
So I don't care if they go, but Microsoft should provide a replacement with equivalent or better functionality. And really it should be part of the OS, not something that has to be grabbed from the store - not everyone has access to the store, e.g. if the PC is disconnected, or in a broken state, or they're in an enterprise setting.
You mean to say that there are people out there who haven't already ditched it in favour of the free and vastly superior Paint.NET?
paint.net is not installed on all systems by default, mspaint is. This makes mspaint as useful as notepad or would you rather have to install Visual Studio on all systems (desktop and server alike) to open up a .cfg or .ini file?
Not that installing on all systems by default is a good thing because the 'tards at Microsoft marketing seem to be under the drug addled conclusion that it's a "good thing" to foist candy crush, USA news (or whatever it's called, MSN or whatever) or other shitty preview/freemium applications by default on all Win10 non-enterprise systems.
..gave us the utterly useless "TwinUI" photo viewer app. (that seems to break itself after you've been using Windows for a while)
Silly to get rid of Paint--it's not like it's taking up a lot of space. (though I use Paint.net anyway) Next to go will probably be Solitare.
And just a little rant here to make me feel better: My father used to complain when cars no longer had gauges, just "idiot lights". Microsoft has gone down the same path, only worse. Starting with the removal of the network activity widget that sat in the system tray and let you know that your computer was actually doing something, Windows has given less and less information in each new release. Now we have Windows updates that don't tell you anything about what's being installed, or how far along in any meaningful way. And on recent Dells, there is no hard drive activity light. So you can sit there and watch the pretty spinny thing on the screen, which has been happening for an hour, and with no indication as to whether your computer is actually doing anything, have to guess if you should wait another hour or if you should kill it and start over.
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Weren't all these add-ons like Paint, WMP, Internet Explorer,etc. meant to kill off some competing application and/or to give impression of the completeness of the OS by including it into windows?
Are these features being taken out now to fill out the Windows Store with more applications?
It's quite evident, but MS has missed one little observation: iOS, which is what they are trying to copy, is 100% mobile and 0% desktop. Microsoft's platform, for better or worse, is nearly 100% desktop (I include x86 convertibles as being part of that market) and 0% mobile. People expect different things on mobile and on real computers.
Trying to cram real computers into a mobile model is madness-- Apple knows how much they've made in mobile, and even they're not trying it. MS has convinced itself that Windows 10 is universal, so copying iOS 10 is not apples to oranges. I mean, if you asked any of them what MS product competes with iOS, it would be WIndows 10, right?
"Trying to cram real computers into a mobile model is madness"
Been trying to tell Microsoft that since Windows 8. Microsoft didn't listen then, it sure will not listen now. Sinofsky, Larson-Greene and Ballmer didn't listen, data mining SatNad won't listen now.
Windows 8 = leveraging Microsoft's desktop monopoly to make inroads into mobile.
Windows 10 = same as Windows 8 but also to make inroads into cloud/subscription services and big data (mining) and ad delivery revenue stream.
And it was a very good pinball game, too.
No icon for joke, troll or getting coat because I'm absolutely serious.
Pinball was the best thing about windows. Back in the days when I had a Windows computer along with real computers, I only ever fired it up to play pinball.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Paint 3D was superfluous... pro users are going to use Adobe Photoshop (or GIMP for the open source fanatics) anyway. There's also the highly competent freeware Paint.NET.
If anyone is looking for an excellent lightweight program to view, quickly edit and crop your pictures, I highly recommend Irfanview. I've been using it since the days of dialup internet. With the plugins pack installed, you can even view videos and pdf documents.
The only bad thing about Irfanview is that some 2-byte characters on the image filename (e.g. Chinese and Korean) show up as '????' and garbled characters on Irfanview's title bar. But it's a minor annoyance, and the dev (Irfan?) really deserves some support with financial donations.
Good thing is: somewhere out there, on the corners of the interwebs, someone has saved copies of the XP versions of calc.exe, mspaint.exe and the free Windows games e.g. Minesweeper, Solitaire, MS Hearts etc. Some may require additional dll files, but they should work well on Windows 10.
And remember, installing whatever you please on Windows, even the vintage versions of Microsoft's own Windows apps, cannot be done if you are shackled to the Microsoft App Store (Windows 10 S). Windows is NOT a walled garden, SatNad had better wake up his bloody idea!
Eudora Light was the first: it came on the ISP's CD when I first signed up for dialup Internet.
Then webmail arrived and the rest is history. Yahoo was the king back then, Microsoft's Hotmail was constantly trying to play catchup. When Gmail came someone had to send you an invitation, you couldn't just sign up for an account.
I always thought that Outlook Express was fairly decent as an email client for a home user. But of course, it would always be second class citizen to Outlook which was bundled together with Office.
The real issue for me is the difficulty of recording state on a GUI system. If you are a thousand miles from the user and something bad is happening you need to know what they see, and what the computer thinks is happening. MSINFO32 and reg dumps are very handy...and Alt-PrtSc plus Paint too. And they are always, always installed.
Having said that, I don't think MSFT are removing it from the W10 Update, they're just not working on it any more. So long as it stays, or another equivalently functional program remains, I have no quibble. Frankly the last time they worked on Paint they produced the ribbon UI, which was not exactly,er, required, so not touching it any more is fine by me.
I'll be sad to see the demise of Paint - as others have said, it's a great way of crudely drawing out a technical diagram without having to fanny about in PPT.
However, with regards to cropping - I still think back to the magical day that my life literally changed instantly. I have no idea how many countless hours have been saved needlessly cropping screen grabs (especially when using multiple monitors) when the little beauty that is Snipping Tool was shown to me.
Don't forget that Win 8, 8.1, and 10 can do instant screenshots with Win + PrtSc. The image will be in Pictures\Screenshots, if I'm not mistaken. You'll still need something to crop and annotate it if necessary, but as far as grabbing the image, this is even more convenient than PrtSc - load Paint - Ctrl-V - Save - Enter filename - enter.
They produce a paint tool that people find handy and it gets used.Its not fancy, but it works and you can ensure that everyone knows its there, so you can use it for remote support to get screenshots.
They decide to make a 2D user interface on Windows 10, then ship it with a 3D paint program - oh the irony.
Then they remove the 2D version
Whats next ?
Visual Paint.Net version 35.4 - comes as a 20Gb download and has loads of features that you'll never need ?
The good old MS Paint can't be monetized (app store and/or ad delivery), isn't 'modern' and does not integrate well with other Microsoft's offerings and the Microsoft cloud.
This is what happens when a company gets too big and is infested with hipsters and trendies a.k.a 'Insiders'.
P.S: Use Irfanview. Lightweight and gets the job done.
https://www.getpaint.net
" It started development as an undergraduate college senior design project mentored by Microsoft, and is currently being maintained by some of the alumni that originally worked on it. Originally intended as a free replacement for the Microsoft Paint software that comes with Windows, it has grown into a powerful yet simple image and photo editor tool."
Honestly, you geeks are too much. Paint 3D is simple to use, had a much cleaner interface then does legacy Paint and works in flat 2d as easily as it does in 3D.
Is there anything Microsoft can do that you will applaud? Paint 3D is light years ahead of legacy Paint while retaining it's simplicity. WTF do you guys want?
Paint 3d is simple to use in 2d/flat and provides more conversion options. You folks are just a bunch of whiners who will roll over in your graves before you will complement Microsoft on anything. If you really had the morals you profess to, you would stop using Microsoft products and quit supporting them in your networking or what have you jobs out of principle. NOPE, you are sluts who will happily take money and continue to whine.
Meanwhile, Microsoft is soaring and resurgent as you folks age and decline in misplaced anger.
Just seen your post history and boy, thought you worked for Microsoft PR or just a very special fan boy.
Every post is saying how great microsoft is and how everyone is haters :D Doesn't matter if its about Windows desktop or Windows phones. Then I noticed your post about having shares in Microsoft and it all clicked in to place. Personally I don't think your lone wolf comments here (and elsewhere) will help increase the share price.
Microsoft made ridiculous changes to their user interface a while back so I moved away from Windows and happily been using Linux at home for a few years. I did however used to use the simple sreenshot, open paint, paste and save (sometimes crop) features which literally took seconds to do. From what everyone has said in this thread it now takes a lot longer to do and even for Paint3d to load. It's a step backwards for the majority who just used it for the basic tasks.
But again, it's pointless talking common sense to someone only worried about the price of their shares in Microsoft...
The preening pomposity of this grubby software company as well as its CEO's delusions of adequacy continue to amuse. Generation Moron knows no better than to accept -- and dutifully parrot -- the Redmond vernacular, but for the rest of us MS English is exactly that: MicroShite. How entertaining it is, then, that the latest news from the 'campus' is another 'deprecation', this time by its 'Creator' tat.
It'll certainly be a loss to the world of comedy when 'Apocalypse' overwhelms.
This is PRECISELY why my office still uses Windows XP computers that don't go on the internet.Microsoft keeps getting rid of things that are truly useful in order to get you to purchase new software or a new computer. XP does EVERYTHING I need in an office computer. For Microsoft to stop supporting OS's that still work is just as dumb as if my Mercedes dealer tells me he won't service my 2010 SL because it's 7 years old.Everything creative in my studio business is done on Macs.I only use a Windows 7 PC to upload our files. When they stop supporting 7,I'm going to a Chrome computer for internet communications.I'm done with Microsoft.
Then what happens WHEN (not IF) a program you ABSOLUTELY need ONLY works on Windows (and let's say ONLY Windows 8 and up for "security reasons") and (due to its purpose) MUST be online? I mean, why can't game developers see the writing on the wall and code for a united flavor of Linux, for example (because for every working headliner example you can cite I can probably name at least two that won't and probably never will like Fallout 4).
Simple, functional programs are not what M$ want us to have. They took away the simple but oh-so-effective retouch tools in photo-viewer. then they hid Photo-viewer and Media player, because they don't harvest enough data from us or try and share our images on line.
I've found the solution - I no longer give a shit who knows anything about my online existence. If I want something private, I keep it in my head or use paper.
If Google can make money by making the adverts I ignore more relevant to my life, great for them, I won't start paying attention!
So I thought, but they offered me the Feynmann Lectures for free... and I clicked.
....
He loved Big Brother...
I get a strong impression that since they almost missed the internet boat, Microsoft is driven by a kind of paranoid fear that they might get left behind again. So they are forever jumping to the next lily pad.. As soon as they see something that looks like a trend; data harvesting, cloud provision, "apps", cross platform OS, search and so on, they feel that they have to be making their money with that, and throwing any existing babies out with the bathwater. Their eyes are so fixed on the recent past that they can neither build on their heritage nor innovate for the future. They're in a perpetual game of catch-up that they can never win.