back to article Cabinet Office minister Gummer loses seat as Tory gamble backfires

UK Cabinet Office minister Ben Gummer, architect of the Conservative Party's manifesto and the man responsible for "digital transformation", has lost his seat in the general election. Gummer was one of the most high-profile Tory causalities of the poll, losing his Ipswich seat to Labour's Sandy Martin with a wafer-thin …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good riddance

    If he's the twerp who drew up the lacklustre manifesto, then it would seem his demise is to be welcomed. I'd like to think next time they'll have a better effort, and perhaps give it more than a few weeks effort by knob-ends firmly in the Westminster bubble.

    And perhaps, instead of yet another toff-boy with a degree in history, we could have a government IT strategy mapped out in two stages - a requirements statement overseen by somebody with proper business analysis or systems architecture experience, and then a technical delivery plan, prepared by somebody who also knows about the subject.

    1. 's water music Silver badge

      Re: Good riddance

      And perhaps, instead of yet another toff-boy with a degree in history, we could have a government IT strategy mapped out in two stages - a requirements statement overseen by somebody with proper business analysis or systems architecture experience, and then a technical delivery plan, prepared by somebody who also knows about the subject.

      ha ha ha. lol no.

    2. James O'Shea

      Re: Good riddance

      "And perhaps, instead of yet another toff-boy with a degree in history"

      Oy! _I_ have a degree in history! I took enough history courses for fun and to top up the grade point that at the end of my time as an undergrad I had enough credit hours for a degree in EE (IT was part of the electrical engineering department at that time) _and_ a degree in history. History was fun, and easy, and I already knew a good chunk of it.

      1. Shadow Systems Silver badge

        @James O'Shea, re: history.

        Remembered it? Hell, I'm so old I probably CAUSED it! =-)p

        I'll get my coat, it's the one with the primordial soup in the pocket.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge

      "If he's the twerp who drew up the lacklustre manifesto, t"

      He was.

      It seems a new generation of activists can be shouting

      "Gummer, Gummer, Gummer, out, out, out." *

      Somewhat ironic that Cameron won an outright majority when it was not expected and May didn't when was expected to.

      *Not that I believe in crude name calling.

    4. veti Silver badge

      Re: Good riddance

      Ye gods, really? I can't imagine anything worse.

      Give me a toff boy with a history degree every time. At least history would help them appreciate why a fragmented government is a Good Thing.

    5. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "instead of yet another toff-boy with a degree in history, "

      I really hate to point this out but History degrees tend to involve writing lots of essays.

      That means you acquire a lot of practice (in theory) of

      Critical thinking.

      Research

      Forming hypotheses from data

      Structuring your presentation so it develops your ideas.

      True, nothing directly applicable to IT but all skills that are absolutely transferable to solving IT design problems and (just as important with big systems) communicating your plan to the PHB's whose support you need to get it started. People who are brilliant coders but not have these. 10 years later they wonder why they don't get promoted.

      But you're right about it needing to be a 2 stage process. Those skills can help you figure out stage 2. You need access to domain specialists (and the ability to listen to what they are saying, and roughly to understand it) to do stage 2.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What a mess...

    How could May have got it so wrong? Idiot.

    All I can hope from the hung parliament is that all the idiocy to come is paralysed by in-fighting and arguments. That's the only stability we'll get. At least Corbyn isn't PM. But he is still a liability.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What a mess...

      "How could May have got it so wrong?"

      To be fair it seemed that everyone was forecasting a Tory landslide, The few last minute polls that showed it otherwise were generally dismissed as outliers.

      When the exit polls were published at 10pm - everyone was shocked and very sceptical. That attitude continued for a while into the night - especially when some seats showed a large swing from Labour to Conservative.

      An old proverb that May should have minded - "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".

      Couldn't have happened to a nicer person.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a mess...

        Just the second in a line of kicking that we, the proles are giving the establishment. After the BREXIT vote and now this one.

        Perhaps Nicola will get the hint and not try IndyRef 2 especially after the kicking her government got yesterday. Who'd a thought it, the Tories the second biggest party in Scotland (AFAIK but could be wrong)

        As for another election in October/November, I don't think May will be PM for very long but whoever takes over from her would be bonkers to call an election for at least two years. They'd be sure to get another kicking and JC would indeed think he is the new Messiah, Then it won't be immigration HMG has to worry about but emigration and the flood of money out of the country. Exchange controls would not be far behind. Just my thoughts so feel free to downvote this into oblivion.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: What a mess...

          " I don't think May will be PM for very long but whoever takes over from her would be bonkers to call an election for at least two years."

          In this sort of situation the PM can have an election forced on them without calling it.

      2. herman Silver badge

        Re: What a mess...

        Err, yeah, I guess all the Mayfly has now is the bush...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a mess...

        To be fair it seemed that everyone was forecasting a Tory landslide, The few last minute polls that showed it otherwise were generally dismissed as outliers.

        Forecasts have been wrong before - in June 2016, in November 2016.....

        1. Captain DaFt

          Re: What a mess...

          "Forecasts have been wrong before - in June 2016, in November 2016....."

          I have a little theory that the more the average person feels that they're being monitored, the more likely they'll tell pollsters what they want to hear, but then vote the way they actually feel.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".

        And now she'll be getting into bed with the lady from the DUP.

        Normally I'm OK with a bit of girl on girl action but in this case not so much. Having seen the DUP leader I think I can guess whose going to be the top.

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".

          "And now she'll be getting into bed with the lady from the DUP."

          So she moves from berating JC for talking to terrorists, to actually climbing in bed with them.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a mess...

        "To be fair it seemed that everyone was forecasting a Tory landslide"

        That's one of the mystifying things about this mess. The result is pretty much what I and most other people I talk to expected. Someone needs better (or more honest, if there's such a thing in politics) advisors.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Coat

          ""To be fair it seemed that everyone was forecasting a Tory landslide""

          And instead the Tories got a "back slide" victory, from a 17 seat absolute majority to an 8 seat deficit.

          Underwhelming.

          Now they need to be propped up by the DUP (the Lib Dems wouldn't touch them with a barge pole after the way they'd been stabbed in the back at every turn last time out. The SNP would have a problem with England only votes).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What a mess...

      "At least Corbyn isn't PM. But he is still a liability."

      To whom? Murdoch, Dacre and the Tory off-shore trust "patriots"?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a mess...

        "At least Corbyn isn't PM. But he is still a liability.

        To whom?"

        To anyone with a job, who earns money, who pays tax, who's saved for a pension, who owns a garden, who drives a car, who pays a mortgage, who doesn't have children, who does have children, who thinks Diane Abbott is actually deranged, who's sick of academic socialists with private incomes, who's fed up with the hypocrisy of those who lecture about state schools but educate their kids privately, who feels uncomfortable with Corbyn's blasé acceptance of those who've killed our soldiers, and so on, and so on...

        That's who.

        1. Mark 110

          Re: What a mess...

          I have a feeling Diane Abbott might have early stage Alzheimers. She used to be quite coherent. Not sure what her health issue is but its probably lost Labour 20 seatss.

      2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Coat

        " Tory off-shore trust "patriots""

        Definitely something to remember.

        "Patriotism is the last bastion of a scoundrel" as Oscar Wilde put it.

        1. Tom Servo

          Re: " Tory off-shore trust "patriots""

          Nope, as the US elections have shown us, Patriotism is now the first bastion of the scoundrel.

    3. 2+2=5 Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: What a mess...

      > How could May have got it so wrong? Idiot.

      ...

      > At least Corbyn isn't PM. But he is still a liability.

      Idiots and liabilities the lot of 'em. Please would you come out from behind your cloak of anonymity, stand for election yourself and save us.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a mess...

        The labour party was in a mess with Corbyn having lots os support from the members but not so much from the MPs. Imagine what would have happened if they'd been given time to re-organise....

        I can't say I agree with Corbyn on lots of subjects but I do respect the fact that he seems to believe in certain principles. I'd rather that than May (and others) with her "any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter to me", as long as I'm in power!

        1. Tim Brown 1

          Re: What a mess...

          "I can't say I agree with Corbyn on lots of subjects but I do respect the fact that he seems to believe in certain principles."

          This, so much this. Blair and then Cameron were all about spin and message. May is an outright liar, so it's refreshing to have someone that has principles and will say the same thing next week as he said last week. He's also someone who believes in talking rather than dropping bombs on people. I hope we get more politicians of conviction on the back of this

          1. veti Silver badge

            Re: What a mess...

            I hear a lot of this "Corbyn has principles" meme.

            Can anyone tell me what they are? Because as far as I can see, his policies are fed to him from his underlings. I've yet to hear the man himself state something he, personally, actually believes in.

            1. Mark 110

              Re: What a mess...

              "I hear a lot of this "Corbyn has principles" meme.

              Can anyone tell me what they are? Because as far as I can see, his policies are fed to him from his underlings. I've yet to hear the man himself state something he, personally, actually believes in."

              Firstly can I point out that Corbyn doesn't have 'underlings'. The Labour party is a pretty egalitarian organisation and whilst Corbyn is the figurehead he is subject to thee democratic ruless of his party.

              Secondly, point out I am not a Labour party supporter but was impressed with his performance and 80% of his policies.

              Thirdly, your statement about his policies being fed his bollocks. The principles thhing is about him refusing to be whipped to vote against his principles over very many years in parliament (I assume you do know most MPs do as they are told by the whips rather than what they think they should do). And he has managed to get most of hhis priciples into the Labour manifesto.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: What a mess...

          I believe in Allah, hanging homosexuals, gassing Jews and having multiple wives under the age of 14.

          Does that really make me command your respect?

          Or is it what Corbyn believes in that is important?

          OK let's try again.

          I believe in Jesus, the ultimate goodness of all mankind and when I drive, I dont put my trust in engineers to design it safe, I put my trust in Jesus instead. And I believe in Fairies, pixie dust, Unicorns, magic money trees, and magic thinking that says if we all just were to pray together, the world would become such a nicer place and we wouldst need a nuclear deterrent.

          Still got your respect have I?

          Faugh! Belief in principles FFS! Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

          I'll save my respect for a man who can code 50,000 lines of code, that does something real, and get the bugs out too, whilst managing a team as well.

          But then, I am only an engineer, whose business is building and maintaining the world that the Corbyns of this life take completely for granted in blissful and total ignorance of the level of skill and sheer hard work that goes into creating and maintaining it.

          I don't mind the Left coming up with visions of where they think society ought to go.

          But please, never ever ever let them try and build it themselves.

          1. Uffish

            @Anonymous Engineer

            Corbyn might say: "But then, I am only a politician, whose business is building and maintaining the world that the engineers of this life take completely for granted in blissful and total ignorance of the level of skill and sheer hard work that goes into creating and maintaining it".

            At a guess I'd say a significant proportion of engineers would make lousy politicians, it takes all sorts.

          2. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: What a mess...

            I believe in Allah, hanging homosexuals, gassing Jews and having multiple wives under the age of 14.

            Does that really make me command your respect?

            As a gay Christian (and, by what Paul said in one of his letters, also a Jew (or at least Hebrew) by default), actually it would - if you stick to your beliefs honestly (but being open to challenge and change if your beliefs are found to be wrong) then I do respect your views, and your right to hold them. Your opinion may call for my death, but I respect and uphold your right to that.

            I believe in Jesus, the ultimate goodness of all mankind and when I drive, I dont put my trust in engineers to design it safe, I put my trust in Jesus instead. And I believe in Fairies, pixie dust, Unicorns, magic money trees, and magic thinking that says if we all just were to pray together, the world would become such a nicer place and we wouldst need a nuclear deterrent.

            That wouldn't, firstly because of several inherent inconsistencies and second because anyone who tried to claim that obviously has no clue of who Jesus is or what He taught (again, open to challenge/change ie learning is another matter).

            the ultimate goodness of all mankind

            The Bible teaches that the heart is inherently dishonest, selfish, and a few other things as well - maybe even the word "evil" tossed around in there. When someone called Jesus "Good" He responded by saying "there are none that are good, only God the Father".

            when I drive, I dont put my trust in engineers to design it safe, I put my trust in Jesus instead

            No one who thinks or knows their Bible would ever do that. We have been given quite powerful brains to actually USE them, not to let them go to waste. We're told to test and prove anything we hear, ie to think and see if it's internally consistent and consistent with the Bible (anyone wanting to claim "contradictions" please show me a couple that can actually stand up to scrutiny!). I've had a couple of occasions of fore-warning while out riding where I've been saved due to taking heed, and I've also had a few times where I've had no obvious intervention at all - though they've usually been where I've been silly and have resulted in no major injury to me and only damage to my bike - ie my own damned fault for stupidly exceeding safety limits. I trust my Bible, and that basically says that I should train, practice, and do a good job as if I'm a child showing to my Father how good I've become at doing something He takes pride in me doing well, not some mentally handicapped person totally dependent on another (not saying that as a dig at the handicapped, but saying that those who think they should be depending on something outside themselves for every decision are handicapped)

            And I believe in Fairies, pixie dust, Unicorns, magic money trees, and magic thinking

            None of that is Biblical. In fact, to those claiming that if you're not rich you're not blessed, and therefore doing wrong and not in God's favour - Jesus promised His disciples "in this world you will have troubles" and "the world will hate you". Further we're told not to store up treasure on earth but to build it "in Heaven", for "where your treasure is, there your heart will be also". If we place our value on things in this world, then when the time comes to move on (say to go to a poorer country to make use of the skills you have eg in medicine), you'll be resistant to what Dad wants you to do, rather than dropping stuff and going. Or like some you'll be scared of losing it all.

            if we all just were to pray together, the world would become such a nicer place and we wouldst need a nuclear deterrent.

            Hey, you actually got something right! But not in the way you imagine. First, if we come together to pray, we're talking. But we're not talking to/at each other, we're seeking betterment for others. And while we wait, we hear what concerns others, and can start to actually think of ways to improve their lot as well as ours. Better if people keep prayers short (Jesus did say you don't need "many words" and not to keep "babbling like heathens" who think that by lots and lots of words they can somehow appease God - God actually wants His turn to speak as well y'know, and sometimes if you just shut up and listen... You wouldn't go to a Doctor and speak non-stop and excessively repetitively about your problems; you'd tell him where it hurts then let him advise you (unless you like various self-diagnoses materials, in which case your 10 minutes reading trumps his 10 years schooling any day!). Anyway getting together to properly pray for each others problems and shortcomings makes people friendlier and stronger as a group. Sure, you will get those who gossip, and those who will seek advantage. Dad has ways of taking care of them Himself though, and sometimes the greatest people later on are those who started as scumbags earlier - they're humbled by the memory of what they were, much more effective at helping others, and become great listeners and advisers.

            I'll save my respect for a man who can code 50,000 lines of code, that does something real, and get the bugs out too, whilst managing a team as well.

            If you don't change your principles with the seasons, then that's sometime I can respect. If you look at your principles from time to time to make sure you can still believe in them, rather than just "this book says" then I respect that more.

            I've seen much in "Christianity" for me to have often dropped the label from myself, but I've seen nothing in the Bible or in Jesus to make me want to turn away from that.

            I don't mind the Left coming up with visions of where they think society ought to go.

            But please, never ever ever let them try and build it themselves.

            Why not? I just need to look at the mess the "Right" have made of NZ over the last 9 years to see how "good" they are at building a society. Rich are richer, 2-income families are living in their cars. There are places where a household income of $70k/a is not enough to pay the rent, and you can't easily go elsewhere because there aren't the jobs elsewhere. The "Right" can be good at building their bank balance, but that only lasts so long. Stupid to own a large chain of supermarkets when most of us can't afford to eat. Stupid to own a dozen "investment properties" when they're sitting empty. The Left build things that last till the Right see they can monetize it. The Left build roads, the Right build banks.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What a mess...

        Please would you come out from behind your cloak of anonymity, stand for election yourself and save us.

        Voted rejoinder of the week. But would you vote for me if you knew who I was?

        My first is like Doris,

        except with a 'B'.

        My second is slang

        for what men use to pee.

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Well look on the bright side

    Anything remotely contentious is going to be dropped in an effort to stop the Tory party imploding, for which we can probably be thankful (e.g. backdoored encryption).

    But Europe and Brexit will get them knifing each other in the back again, there's no way 10 DUP seats can cover that. So, elections again in six months' time?

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Well look on the bright side

      If the DUP is involved in the government in any way then I can think we expect problems with the Northern Ireland Assembly. And if May thought her own backbenchers were difficult to manage, she's going to find out what real hardliners are like.

      Couldn't have happened to a nice person.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        "And if May thought her own backbenchers were difficult to manage, she's going to find out what real hardliners are like."

        And if May thought her own backbenchers were difficult to manage, she's going to find out what real religious fundamentalist hardliners are like.

        FTFY

        1. Arthur the cat Silver badge
          Alert

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          And if May thought her own backbenchers were difficult to manage, she's going to find out what real religious fundamentalist hardliners are like.

          Appropriate Daily Mash article on the subject.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "going to find out what real religious fundamentalist hardliners are like."

          "So you're a Vicar's daughter Mrs May.

          We like our religion in Ulster as well.

          I'm sure we'll have lots to talk about. BTW we really like your plan for Brexit"

        3. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

          Re: "she's going to find out what real hardliners are like."

          Snaps fingers.

          That's it...

          Give the DUP the role of negotiating the whole Brexit process, from start to finish.

      2. IsJustabloke
        Meh

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        "Couldn't have happened to a nice person."

        while I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, whatever happens is going to happen to all of us.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        :If the DUP is involved in the government in any way then I can think we expect problems with the Northern Ireland Assembly. And if May thought her own backbenchers were difficult to manage, she's going to find out what real hardliners are like."

        It's probably just as well that, contrary to Michael Gove's suggestion in the Times (paywall alert), she isn't a Catholic

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Well look on the bright side

      The DUP assistance is sufficient to gain stable majority only if Sinn Fein does not take their seats.

      I am not sure that they will continue holding to their no-Westminster policy if their arch-rival is in-government or given significant say in policy.

      Latest numbers are 318 + 10 = 328. Subtract Ken Clarke who thankfully did not stand down at this election - 327. Subtract Heidi Allen and a few others which do not tow the party line on most critical issues and voilà - she just lost her majority. Provided Sinn Fein shows up.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. graeme leggett

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          DUP do not want a hard border with Ireland.

          From the Metro:

          "She has said that no-one wants to see a hard Brexit, and ‘what we want to see is a workable plan to leave the European Union’.

          Her stance is that it needs to be done in ‘a way that respects the specific circumstances of Northern Ireland and our shared history and geography with the Republic of Ireland’ "

      2. Ejit

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        And it is worth remembering that the DUP and the 12 Scottish Torys for that matter are castrated by EVEL, so can't vote on Health, Education, Transport...etc.

        Bet EVEL gets repealed shortly.

        1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          But so are the SNP and Labour north of the border.

          Scottish Tories only need vote on English issues if SNP or Scottish Labour vote.

          1. Bronek Kozicki Silver badge

            Re: Well look on the bright side

            I put myself on the target (not being a citizen I can only watch and comment) but for one, I think this is actually not bad. Some commentators say that makes Norwegian-style soft brexit more likely, as the government won't have the votes for anything more complex or controversial. And I think they might be right in this.

        2. Dave Schofield

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          Would those MPs that can't vote on devolved matters be able to vote to change their right to vote on devolved matters?

          1. disgustedoftunbridgewells Silver badge

            Re: Well look on the bright side

            It's a convention that non-English MP's don't vote on English only matters - it isn't a law.

            However in England the Conservatives have a healthy majority, so there's no need for the DUP to support them in England anyway, unless SNP, PC, etc, break the convention first.

            1. Lars Silver badge

              Re: Well look on the bright side

              "It's a convention that non-English MP's don't vote on English only matters - it isn't a law.".

              And lets not forget that Brexit is certainly not a "English only matter".

      3. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

        Re: Well look on the bright side - @ Voland's Right Hand

        [...] Provided Sinn Fein shows up.

        I think it's fairly safe to assume they won't (I don't believe they ever have, so the number required to reach an overall majority is always 325 minus the number of Sinn Fein seats)

      4. Norman Nescio

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        "Provided Sinn Fein shows up."

        Very, very, unlikely. In order to do so, they have to pledge allegiance to the Queen, and that will happen when Old Nick is wearing ice-skates.

        The prospect of the DUP deciding votes at Westminster brings the West Lothian Question into very sharp relief. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question ]

        1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          [Sinn Fein in parliament.]

          Very, very, unlikely. In order to do so, they have to pledge allegiance to the Queen, and that will happen when Old Nick is wearing ice-skates.

          Tony Benn used to preface his oath of allegiance with "Speaking as a committed republican". SF could always use a similar form.

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge

            "Tony Benn..preface his oath of allegiance with "Speaking as a committed republican"."

            I did not know this.

            1. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

              Re: "Tony Benn..preface his oath of allegiance with "Speaking as a committed republican"."

              It's got to be true... no mention of it on Snopes.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Allegiance

          Could swear crossing their fingers. Or wearing 'I'm a liar' T-shirts.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Allegiance

            Re: "Could swear crossing their fingers. Or wearing 'I'm a liar' T-shirts."

            Umm... they're politicians, therefore that's a given.

      5. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        Subtract Ken Clarke who thankfully did not stand down at this election

        Yep, I think he's looking forward to playing Ted Heath/Geoffrey Howe to Theresa's Thatcher. Was pleasantly surprised to see him standing again having presumably refused a peerage.

        I've no time for the Tories but Clarke was the best leader they never had. He stood up to Maggie, he gave the BoE independence, he was one of the few to warn about the abuse of parliament over the Iraq war and he voted with his conscience, as all MPs are supposed to over Article 50. And he would have cauterised the EU wound in the Tory party. As things stand they've probably just ripped it open again.

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        The DUP assistance is sufficient to gain stable majority only if Sinn Fein does not take their seats.

        And, I never ever thought I'd say it, but I hope they do.

        1. Mark 110

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          Sinn Fein do tend to be a little more coherent than the DUP

      7. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        @ Voland's right hand

        "I am not sure that they will continue holding to their no-Westminster policy if their arch-rival is in-government or given significant say in policy.", it will not happen as it would require recognition of UK rights to rule NI and an promise to the queen

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/40212141/general-election-2017-sinn-fin-will-not-take-seats.

        Given their tiny lead and the fact that the tories have lost faith in their leadership then I am expecting that anything at all contentious the leadership puts forward will failed to receive enough support to get passed. The DUP are also not blind to what happened to the last political group that gave votes to put the tories in power and the effect it had in the following elections.

        I do however think it is very ironic that May gambled, and then lost massively, based upon the reports from her own side's biased media, a classic case of believing your own BS with a predictable(for anyone with a pulse) outcome.

      8. veti Silver badge

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        If Sinn Fein shows up, it will show them up for the biggest hypocrites outside the Tory party.

        Oh, and the SNP - whatever happened to their "non-interference in English affairs" pledge?

    3. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

      Re: Well look on the bright side

      Well, the really bright side is that governments with wafer thin majorities tend to have a high attrition rate.

      Hopefully the opposition will refuse any 'pairing' arrangements, which means that every Tory and DUP MP will have to turn up for every vote, just in case all the opposition decide to.

      Stress-levels for Tories start to go through the roof.

      And on important votes they'll be wheeling MPs in on trollies from Intensive Care so they can vote (it's happened before).

      Popcorn time...

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well look on the bright side

      Theresa is going to look stunning in the orange sash and bowler hat. Cos that's part of the 'agreement'. Talk about selling your soul to the homophobic, pro-life, fundamentalist devil.....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        You forgot climate change denialist. And creationist. These are the idiots who wanted to have a creationist signboard erected by the Giant's Causeway to give their account of how it came to be ...

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Well look on the bright side

          So they are mentally ill then?

          Great fun tellling creatists they are mentally ill!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        Theresa is going to look stunning in the orange sash and bowler hat. Cos that's part of the 'agreement'. Talk about selling your soul to the homophobic, pro-life, fundamentalist devil.....

        Surely that would be a black sash and Niqab.

        I mean if you want homophobic, pro-life, fundamentalist devils, you only have to go to Manchester on a Saturday night.

        And you can have forced marriage, to child brides, polygamy, anti-Semitism, female genital mutilation thrown in as well!

        What's not to like?

        DUP are just pussies by comparison.

      3. ToddRundgrensUtopia

        Re: Well look on the bright side

        That would Timmy Farron

  4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Given the other alternatives a hung Parliament seems the best we could have hoped for.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @ Doctor Syntax

      Second that. Regardless of the result there was no winning for the country. Hopefully this will shake the lot up into providing viable options. Possibly for a soonish rerun.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @ Doctor Syntax

        Hopefully this will shake the lot up into providing viable options.

        Hopefully, but I can't see it myself. The Labour party didn't learn from two successive defeats, and now can't understand how they ended up with an unreformed marxist as its leader.

        The parliamentary Conservatives simply can't see what their core and fringe voters really want, and prefer to try and govern with a toxic mismatch presidential fiat from May, special advisors, focus group gestures, and continuing with a series of policies many of which are essentially unchanged from those of Blair.

        I think you're right on yet another election, but absent a revolution amongst the political parties to focus on robust, clear manifestos backed by policies that will deliver what electors (credibly) want, this could go on for some time.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          "special advisors"

          I think her cabinet are hopping mad about the campaign decisions she took on the advice of her SPADs and without consulting them. As she now has to pay a lot more attention to what her party thinks I expect her special advisers are going to be on a short lead in future and that's assuming they're not ushered out through those gates at the end of Downing St.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @ ledswinger

          Whatever you say about Corbin bare in mind that he was put forward and supported by his parties members against his own party leadership. His popular support brought out record numbers of voters and whilst you may not agree with his politics you have to admit that he has stuck by them and they are what people are voting for.

          When put against Mrs May, the tory press and a lot of stratigic voting he still managed to get enough popular support that the tories had to marry the DUP to keep in power.

          It has been said that the brexit result was a show that many people in this country are sick of lying politicians who put their own desires before the needs of this country.

          All the confirmations that our politicians are corrupt and for sale to the highest bidder.

          All the laws that impact the majority for the benefit of the few that have taken this country from a world leader to a back water.

          How we are now not safe to walk the streets because we are paying for the US and UK meddling in the middle east.

          Perhaps it is time that we had some government and a leader who are not corrupt and puts the people of this country before short term profit for minoroties that then walk away when the bill comes due.

          What can be agreed is that things have been getting worse for a long time, free education, social welfare, general prosperity our rewards from WW2 have virtually disappeared and now we have people starving and homeless in the streets living upon charity because our leadership would rather give OUR money to the already more than wealthy than help our unlucky neighbours.

          There is always a high cost when you allow such disparities in a society and no matter your position in that society the price for not caring about the people you share a country with is always higher than you want to pay. Perhaps having someone who cares for this country and it's people for a change will be a good thing, certainly not being corruptable is something we have not seen for a long time

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @ ledswinger

            "[...] he still managed to get enough popular support that the tories had to marry the DUP to keep in power."

            There was also the middle ground vote from all party colours looking for a home. With the Lib-Dems effectively out of the running in most areas it became a tactical alliance "ABC" vote - "Anyone But Conservative". They weren't necessarily voting to support Jeremy Corbyn.

            The general scenario reminds one of "I, Claudius". Theresa May has now to be careful of her Praetorian Guard.

          2. Uffish

            Re: @ ledswinger

            Mr Anonymous Coward be aware that any comment with "Corbyn bare" at the start doesn't get read by me. Sorry, your carefully phrased ideas have been ignored.

            I'd vote for the guy but "Corbyn bare " is not anything I want to contemplate.

        3. Marcus Fil

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          "I think you're right on yet another election, but absent a revolution amongst the political parties to focus on robust, clear manifestos backed by policies that will deliver what electors (credibly) want, this could go on for some time."

          This. Exactly this.

          A 1922 Committee organiser was asked on television what caused the rout; he totally failed to see, or at least admit, that it was not just a few manifesto issues (mainly social care), but the whole, arrogant, gab bag of insane irrelevance (e.g. backdooring encryption, fox hunting, Grammar schools) coupled with the poor track record addressing the real issues (Trump, NHS, domestic terror, post BREXIT).

          Now May is cosying up the UK's own religious fundamentalists to cling to the illusion of power. Maybe if the Tories had had to pay for the whole sorry debacle out of their own pockets, instead of ours, they would have applied more than 5 minutes of thought to the exercise.

          Labour's manifesto may have been heavy on rainbows and unicorns, but it also resonated with the electorate for trying to address some real world issues (like why are Southern Rail executives still receiving an oxygen ration?). Maybe a few more rounds of fight are required for a victor to emerge with a real plan.

    2. Rich 11 Silver badge

      the best we could have hoped for.

      It certainly cheered me up this morning. If I'd had champagne in the house I would have cracked it open. Instead, I just treated myself to a second cup of tea.

      1. IsJustabloke
        Meh

        Re: the best we could have hoped for.

        "It certainly cheered me up this morning."

        I'm not the results are worth celebrating as such

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: the best we could have hoped for.

        "Instead, I just treated myself to a second cup of tea."

        You hell-raiser you. I nearly wet myself laughing at the exit poll at 10. Cos even if the poll was wrong and she'd crept in with the same size majority as she has now, she'd still have catastrophically failed. She wanted 50 - 100 majority, so she could rule us like a queen. Now, not only does she have the foibles of the 1922 committee to worry about, she has Ken Clarke and a couple of others who are staunch remainers, and the northern irish fundamentalists to keep happy. They are not going to prop her up free of charge. If she misjudged this so badly, who could argue she's actually fit to govern? She theoretically has her finger on the button for fucks sake. Total disaster for her, and hilariously funny for the rest of us.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: the best we could have hoped for.

          "She theoretically has her finger on the button for fucks sake."

          Not without Donald's go ahead - oooh....

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: the best we could have hoped for.

            "Not without Donald's go ahead"

            Delivered by Tweet?

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "She theoretically has her finger on the button for fucks sake. "

          Yes indeed.

          And what a yuuuge issue the MSM made about Corbyn views on that.

          IRL the out-of-the-blue completely unexpected nuclear attack by Russia/Rogue states/Terrorists makes a popular thriller plot of the Tom Clancy/Dale Brown (and wannabes) school.

          But IRL it's bu***hit.

          I was reminded of a tv show that put a group of people through (roughly) the UK Intelligence services selection process.

          One of the tests was they blindfold you, hand you a gun and tell you that in front of you is a person who is an immediate threat to UK security. What are you going to do?

          In fact most of the candidates fired.

          But what they actually wanted were the ones who asked for more Intelligence about what was going on first. IOW what Corbyn described.

          1. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: "She theoretically has her finger on the button for fucks sake. "

            "But IRL it's bu***hit."

            Yup. If a submarine surfaces and finds Radio 4's off the air, they're likely to find the PM's note saying something along the lines of "If you're reading this the war finished 20 minutes ago and there's no point nuking anyone. Go find someplace safe to hole up"

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: the best we could have hoped for.

        "I just treated myself to a second cup of tea."

        It's probably for the best. Yorkshire tea, I hope.

    3. Nick Kew
      Devil

      a hung Parliament seems the best we could have hoped for.

      Damn, I expect you're right. I suppose a hanged parliament is just a pipe dream.

    4. handleoclast
      Devil

      A hung Parliament

      @Doctor Syntax

      Actually, I was hoping for a hanged Parliament. A hung Parliament is definitely second best.

    5. Alan Brown Silver badge

      "a hung Parliament seems the best we could have hoped for."

      A hung parliament is the best outcome at all times. It means that what goes through has to be negotiated rather than rammed through using the majority. This tends to prevent ideological extremes (on both sides) becoming law.

    6. Stoneshop Silver badge
      Pirate

      a hung Parliament

      Would that be 650 individual gallows, or, say, the whole lot swinging in the breeze under Tower Bridge?

      1. Wensleydale Cheese
        Pirate

        Re: a hung Parliament

        "Would that be 650 individual gallows, or, say, the whole lot swinging in the breeze under Tower Bridge?"

        That mental image cannot be unseen.

        It would definitely create more of a visual impact than previous lamp post suggestions.

      2. MJI Silver badge

        Re: a hung Parliament

        You better not do this with Ken Clarke!

      3. Kiwi Silver badge
        Trollface

        Re: a hung Parliament

        Would that be 650 individual gallows, or, say, the whole lot swinging in the breeze under Tower Bridge?

        In olden times armies besieging cities used to catapault the rotting corpses of dead animals or people over the walls to (hopefully) spread disease among the inhabitants holding out in the city.

        So..

        Figure out some state that you really hate and wish to see gone, and give the MP's a one-way ticket...

        Failing that, 650 gallows is cheap, and can they can later be used as fuel for the funeral pyre. I'm not sure the Tower Bridge should be made to go through such a treatment, what's it done to you to have hundreds of rotting politicians hanging from it, let along the decaying corpses of the dead ones?

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Gummer had previously described the government's long-delayed digital strategy as "the most ambitious programme of change of any government anywhere in the world".

    I think that should have been "over-ambitious".

    1. m0rt

      I would have gone with "doomed".

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Britain needs stability" says May

    May says she's keeping in as PM because "Britain needs stability".

    Then she charges right ahead with Brexit anyway. WTF?

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: "Ploughs ahead with BREXIT..."

      Well, that's what the electorate decided upon last year. There might very well be a revolution if she didn't plough ahead with it.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: "Ploughs ahead with BREXIT..."

        "There might very well be a revolution if she didn't plough ahead with it."

        Think about this for the moment.

        Remember that the original vote was close.

        Now observe what happened to UKIP - their vote collapsed.

        Consider what happened in the areas which predominantly voted Leave. The Conservative vote went up but not enough for them to win seats from Labour.

        Finally, consider what happened in the areas which predominantly voted Remain. The Conservative vote went down in large enough amounts for Labour to win seats.

        May's majority disappeared because of Brexit. The argument that the country was solidly in favour of Brexit was never really valid given the narrowness of the majority. What the current vote seems to be telling us is that that majority probably doesn't exist any more. Electorates are volatile at best and we're now seeing the effect of Remainers who didn't vote a year ago turning out now to do what they can to make their displeasure felt. That's why some of us have been saying all along that a binding vote should require a supermajority to change the status quo and being bound by an advisory vote that produced a fairly even split was wrong.

        She'll plough ahead with it if she's left in office out of sheer pig-headedness. If she was replaced by someone who didn't there'd be no revolution. The result tells you that.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Ploughs ahead with BREXIT..."

        @Steve Davies 3

        Ha ha ha. That'll be the day.

        The only thing people really, really care about is the NHS. That is being privatised with every passing year. And there's no revolution over that, so no chance of one for ignoring Brexit.

        And the irony is that we'll end up leaving but still have to obey all the EU rules - what a farce. If that's what's meant by strong leadership then it must have come straight out of the Alice in Wonderland dictionary - Quote no. 8

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Ploughs ahead with BREXIT..."

          Politics 101 - The Use of Language

          See "the Alice in Wonderland dictionary - Quote no. 8", linked above.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "And the irony is that we'll end up leaving but still have to obey all the EU rules"

          Yes Ken Livingstone's prophecy that "It'll take a long time and you still won't get what you asked for" remains quite accurate.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Ploughs ahead with BREXIT..."

        @Steve Davies 3

        Brexit - the issue that drove Kensington (!!!) to vote Labour.

        By the way, only 37% of "the electorate" voted "Leave". The Leave campaign achieved more votes cast than Remain, of course, but as you framed it as "the electorate", the majority did not vote for this so-called Plan. Actually, we haven't even seen anything vaguely resembling a plan yet, have we?

      4. Wensleydale Cheese

        Re: "Ploughs ahead with BREXIT..."

        "There might very well be a revolution if she didn't plough ahead with it."

        Who gave her a mandate for a "hard" Brexit instead of a "soft" one?

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "Who gave her a mandate for a "hard" Brexit instead of a "soft" one?"

          Simple. The law was framed so all the complex stuff was left "TBD"

          This could have been avoided if CMD had framed the rule of some kind of threshold.

          BTW the Scottish independence referendum did not have an absolute limit either. It just happened that a) It had the highest turnout of any vote in the UK and b) It did give an 11% lead of remain over leave.And only allowing people actually in Scotland to make the decision. No postal votes from America.

          CMD should have done a much sharper deal on framing the rules. That way if leave had succeeded there would have been a serious mandate. Not a 50/50 +/- 2% which was basically in the statistical noise.

          1. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: "Who gave her a mandate for a "hard" Brexit instead of a "soft" one?"

            CMD should have done a much sharper deal on framing the rules. That way if leave had succeeded there would have been a serious mandate. Not a 50/50 +/- 2% which was basically in the statistical noise.

            Thing with votes is, they ain't statistics. They're actual numbers. When the counting is over, if you have a "margin of error" then you have a problem and need to be sure of your counting.

            I also find these ideas of having to have a higher than 50% result to be a "majority", some even as high as 75%. So you have an even million voters in the population, 749,999 of them vote CHANGE, 5 (yes, 5, as in 1 more than 4) vote NO CHANGE, and the remaining 249,996 voters didn't care enough to vote. I know people say that NO CHANGE should be the answer because as it wasn't 75% of the voters who asked for it (chose a number that fits whatever arbitrary rounding scheme you wish to argue should be used, I am going for an exact 75% and .000001% less is not enough).

            Were the rules for a simple majority of votes cast? Yes. Was this clear before the voting began? Yes. Is 50.00001% a majority? Yes. Slim, but yes.

            If you wanted to remain, and you wanted remain to be the result, you should've got off your arse and helped educate those who were going to vote leave. The only people who are to blame are those who did not do enough to increase the "remain" vote. No good looking to place blame on a basic democratic system, and no good making assumptions about what other people did or didn't want - what they didn't want is they didn't want to cast their vote one way or the other.

  7. Pen-y-gors Silver badge

    Don't frighten me...

    I read the headline and for a moment I thought that wee John Gummer, he of the mad-cow burgers, was back in the Commons.

    Please don't do that...

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      Re: Don't frighten me...

      He may be related as part of the Gummer-Rees-Mogg dynasty.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't frighten me...

      Eldest son

      1. Arthur the cat Silver badge

        Re: Don't frighten me...

        Eldest son

        And it was the daughter who was force fed mad cow burger.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Coat

          "And it was the daughter who was force fed mad cow burger."

          Anything for the win, right?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't frighten me...

      This is the one who ate the burger ...

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A pity that Home Secretary Amber Rudd scraped home by 346 votes.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      None of them would have if it was a two round system

      If it was a two-round system the conservatives would have had even less seats. As it stands they assimilated the UKIP vote and leveraged the Labour/Liberal and Labour/SNP vote splits in key constituencies.

      For example - there is no way in hell Zac Goldsmith would have made it into the parliament if there was a second round between him and the runner up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: None of them would have if it was a two round system

        The next time, whenever it comes (could be any day now) will be even more interesting in my view. UKIP are basically deceased now, so their support cannot prop up the conservatives as they have done in some seats this time. Liberals show no sign of life really. Let's say the tories stumble on, supported by their 10 orange superhero friends for 2 years, humiliating themselves in the brexit negotiations as they go, being defeated frequently in the commons, squabbling as only tories can do, and May looking more and more of a prat the whole time. You could be looking at a 1997 size labour majority in 2019, with JC as PM. Exciting, if slightly unnerving times.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: None of them would have if it was a two round system

          UKIP are basically deceased now, so their support cannot prop up the conservatives

          I wish. Super-Kipper is dusting off his action man suit and ready to lead the party again if there is another election.

          What am I saying if? Coalitions can work very well if both parties are committed to the idea (spot the Liberal) but a Tory party desperate to dump Mother Theresa in bed with the DUP?

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: None of them would have if it was a two round system

            "Super-Kipper is dusting off his action man suit and ready to lead the party again if there is another election."

            That wouldn't surprise me. I always said the leadership was a revolving door with Farage in most of the compartments. What would be surprising would be if he found a party to lead.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: None of them would have if it was a two round system

              "UKIP are basically deceased now,"

              A neighbour is the local organiser for UKIP. He was complaining several months ago - that after the referendum the membership just melted away. He couldn't even raise any support for a Xmas party.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: None of them would have if it was a two round system

        "As it stands they assimilated the UKIP vote"

        In most of the results I saw last night the collapsing UKIP vote seemed to have been shared out. I think UKIPpers by and large went back to where they came from.

      3. MJI Silver badge

        Re: None of them would have if it was a two round system

        The fallacy of party support.

        Why do people always think that LIbDem ect voters would automatically go Labour?

        Or Ukip go Conservative?

        I know of quite a few Remain supporting voters who normally go Conservative go Lib Dem.

    2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Meh

      " A pity that Home Secretary Amber Rudd scraped home by 346 votes."

      That was an army compared to Zach Goldsmith.

      The Lib Dems lost by 43 votes to him.

      BTW in the UK anything less than a 2000 vote majority is a marginal.

    3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Gimp

      " A pity that Home Secretary Amber Rudd scraped home by 346 votes."

      Sadly even if she lost her replacement sock puppet would soon undergo "conversion" to the Home Office data fetishists PoV.

      Just like the previous 9 or so.

    4. Sam 15

      Amber Rudd scraped home

      "A pity that Home Secretary Amber Rudd scraped home by 346 votes."

      Is it too late to ask for a few recounts?

      If we ask the same question again and again. we might eventually get the Right Answer.

  9. Geoffrey W

    Cameron got the ball rolling with his Eu referendum. May gave it a kick to keep it on its way with her snap election. Conservatives only need one more disaster for the hat trick, and it's shaping up for a truly spectacular one with the whole Brexit thing. Go Team Tory!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      And now we know, contrary to previous belief and the Dacre/Murdoch rags, that Labour ARE electable, shy Tories having been replaced by shy Corbynites. :-)

      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

        shy Tories having been replaced by shy Corbynites

        Not so fast. The Labour voters in the North who voted UKIP and to leave were never likely to adopt the Tories en masse. 2015, the referendum and now: a continuing protest vote over the standard of living and immigration. The tuition fees was an easy sop to get students on board.

        If May hadn't been such a dreadful campaigner then Corbyn's expensive promises and gaffes could have cost him a lot of votes. But as things turned out she appeared to get more and uncomfortable meeting real whereas Jezzer grew in confidence after bathing in the crowds. And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign.

        1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

          In politics, sooner or later if your successful enough people come round.

          Elected despite the Parliamentary Labor Party hating him.

          Bought a huge number of people into the party because the liked him, not the party. PLP hate him.

          Leadership challenges. Failed. PLP hate him.

          Election. Tories expect to annihilate Labor for a generation. PLP thinks so to. End up with hung parliament. PLP hate him.

          Perhaps the PLP might like to re-consider there views? It may seem that to win big you need an authoritarian control freak and possible undiagnosed psychopath but maybe, just maybe someone whose a bit more neurotypical might be the way to go.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

            "Bought a huge number of people into the party"

            Bought? Simple typo or Freudian slip?

            1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Headmaster

              Re: "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

              That would be "brought" as in the past tense of the verb bring.

          2. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

            "and possible undiagnosed psychopath"

            It's pretty clear based on statements and actions that the Vicar's Daughter is a sociopath, but being a Tory that shouldn't be much of a surprise. (And if you've been watching her activities in the Home office, you'd have come to that conclusion a while back)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

              "It's pretty clear based on statements and actions that the Vicar's Daughter is a sociopath, but being a Tory that shouldn't be much of a surprise."

              It's pretty clear based on statements and actions that the Vicar's Daughter is a sociopath, but being a Tory an ambitious politician that shouldn't be much of a surprise.

              FTFY

            2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              ""and possible undiagnosed psychopath""

              Actually WRT to the Labor party I was thinking of Blair.

              I've come to the conclusion that in politics "Left" and "Right" IIRC based on the seating patterns of the French assembly after the Revolution are unhelpful.

              The real divide is between the "Authoritarians" who basically don't trust the people they claim to server, and the "Democrats" who do.

              Blair and May look like Authoritarians to me, Cameron seemed a bit more like a Democrat. I think Corbyn may be as well.

              But I really do wonder what happens inside the The Home Office that turns people into advocates of permanent, total surveillance.

              Personally I suspect it's a long stream of reports of "potential" terrorist outrages that have been stopped. There really is no operating room inside the HO where they have chips inserted in their brains (not so sure about drugs though).

              But they never have the time (or the sense) to look below the surface and realize how many of those "outrages" turned out to someone spouting off on FB, or were turned in by suspicious neighbors, or hardware suppliers IOW where mass surveillance was totally irrelevant, as they were buried in the billions of other emails/web page trails/social media posts/etc that the UK govt insists on hoovering up.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: ""and possible undiagnosed psychopath""

                "I think Corbyn may be as well."

                He is undoubtedly an idealist. Thus likely to be persuaded by his inner circle to take the authoritarian approach - as "the end justifies the means".

                1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                  WTF?

                  Misquoting AC "and possible undiagnosed psychopath"

                  ""I think Corbyn may be as well.""

                  "He is undoubtedly an idealist. Thus likely to be persuaded by his inner circle to take the authoritarian approach - as "the end justifies the means"."

                  Dear ACl.

                  I don't like being mis quoted out of context, especially by someone who doesn't have the balls to sign their post.

                  As you would know if you read my post the "possible undiagnosed psychopath" remark was directed to Tony Blair and my reference to Corbyn was a suspected democrat.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Misquoting AC "and possible undiagnosed psychopath"

                    "As you would know if you read my post the "possible undiagnosed psychopath" remark was directed to Tony Blair and my reference to Corbyn was a suspected democrat."

                    My reply was to your assigning Corbyn as a democrat. His attempts to impose whips on the PLP for Article 50 were a hint that he would be authoritarian when it suited his aims. His voting history of following his own conscience many, many times should have allowed that latitude. There is a danger that Corbyn could be set up as a cult leader by his inner circle and hard core supporters.

                    Blair was not an idealist - just an opportunist with a Messiah delusion.

                    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
                      Unhappy

                      "There is a danger..Corbyn..a cult leader by his inner circle and hard core supporters."

                      Isn't that a risk with every political leader?

                      There seemed a fair bit of that with Blair, with the consequent collapse when Brown replaced him.

          3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

            Re: "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

            just maybe someone whose a bit more neurotypical might be the way to go

            Well, except that Corbyn has already demonstrated more typical "leadership" qualities such as applying the whip over the Article 50 vote, despite his own record of voting against the party line.

            Whatever the politics the high turnout at the election was fantastic. Corbyn, and the rest of the party, should be congratulated on the way it got the vote out, especially among younger voters. But the task was made a whole lot easier by a Tory manifesto memorable mainly for promising to bring back fox hunting and seizing the houses of elderly people.

            I think that the problem that I and many is less with Corbyn personally, who seems largely to be a principled and reasonable person, than those around him (McDonnell is an unreconstructed Marxist) and Momentum. We remember how Militant in the 1980s successfully drove an incredibly unpolitical agenda.

            Many of the new Labour seats have ridiculously thin majorities so that, should there be another election, the Tories with a more effective campaigner as leader, might well get that majority they want so that they can on with the business of rolling back the welfare state. Of course, when the Tories inevitably do change their leader, they might think twice before calling another election. But with the DUP on board some kind of crisis, including a resurgence of violence in Northern Ireland, can't be far off.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "And the Labour Party actually got behind the campaign."

              "(McDonnell is an unreconstructed Marxist) "

              McDonnell is positively pleasant and cuddly compared with Seamus Milne

            2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
              Unhappy

              "more typical "leadership" qualities such as applying the whip over the Article 50 vote, "

              A fair point but consider this.

              Corbyn was the about the most Eurosceptic leader of the main three parties. His support for Remain was not very impressive. I have no idea of his through processes but given he wanted to go this way they could have included.

              1)The people have (just about) made their views known. Anything short of a full new referendum is just gesture politics by frustrated MP's who did not do a good enough job of explaining the benefits of being in the EU.

              2)Delay causes more uncertainty and economic uncertainty is a big killer of jobs. Let's get the process moving (IIRC this was before CMD cut and ran, dropping the Conservatives into their leadership mess)

              3)Labour MP's who did not vote for me may use it as a "no confidence" vote. Again this is an internal party matter spilling out and affecting the whole Brexit process. also a form of gesture politics, but about their views on party leader, rather than the direction the country decided to take.

              So yes I could see reasons for a whip, given the limited ability a no vote would have to change things. :-(

              I think both the Leave and Remain campaigns were bad.

              TL:DR version. The Leavers lied through their teeth and did not change their advertising when called out (apparently people voted based on that "£300m+ will go to the NHS if we leave" bu***hit)

              The Remainers seemed incapable of explaining simply a)What (in any given situation) were the benefits of the EU and b)what situations were nothing to do with the EU, but a failure of the UK government to get its s**t together, which is where a lot of the blame rightly falls.

  10. phils

    Not sure if a typo or truth

    "Gummer was one of the most high-profile Tory causalities of the poll"

  11. Kiwi Silver badge
    FAIL

    The UK now faces the prospect of a hung Parliament after a disastrous night for the Tories, in which they failed to achieve a majority of 326.

    Not disastrous enough unfortunately.

    UK, I pray & hope that whoever forms your next government, that they have decent brains and are decent people where their experience isn't enough. You're in a weird place right now and need some good sense to get you out of it and back onto an even keel.

    And you need people with some smarts who won't destroy your "digital economy" in the next few weeks!

    Icon for the voters failing to remove this blight on your country :(

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      If it were a proportional vote, just Labour with 40% and Lib Dems with 7.4% could have agreed something, obviously not a coalition, and won. Tories had 42.4%, DUP 0.9% (which gave them a massive 10 seats), and UKIP 1.8% (who ended up with no seats at all).

      FPTP is obviously not a good system, people might claim it avoids extreme parties getting into power but there probably wouldn't have been all the instability over the past 3 years if there were a more a proportional system anyway. Unfortunately the AV vote got rejected in the 2011 referendum thanks to the two big parties campaigning against it.

      1. Kiwi Silver badge

        FPTP is obviously not a good system, people might claim it avoids extreme parties getting into power

        We have a proportional system here, and it has let some fairly extremes get in at times.

        But the key is, they're proportional. A government may be built of a larger party supported by a number of small parties (sometimes even a single person), but there are limits to what the smaller parties can achieve. They may push a policy of executing all unemployed, but if they can't get the votes in parliament then their policies are going nowhere.

        I don't know if I'd call it a good system, nor am I sold on STV or other systems, but it is better than FPTP simply because a government is formed by whoever has the majority of the seats. With FPTP it's theoretically possible for a party with say 30% of the vote to govern (though I guess the UK has rules against that). MMP at least generally requires something of a majority, even though it is usually via coalition. I don't think we've yet had a party strong enough to "govern alone" since the system came in.

        I wonder if a BOFH-style negotiating round would be good for the UK? I do know where I can get several desks. And a secure room. And a job-lot of half-bricks...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "(though I guess the UK has rules against that)"

          IIRC there are no threshold/quorum rules. However if there was major apathy or boycotts then it could trigger a constitutional crisis.

        2. John Smith 19 Gold badge
          Unhappy

          " With FPTP it's theoretically possible for a party with say 30% of the vote to govern

          (though I guess the UK has rules against that)"

          Why?

          1. Kiwi Silver badge

            Re: " With FPTP it's theoretically possible for a party with say 30% of the vote to govern

            " With FPTP it's theoretically possible for a party with say 30% of the vote to govern

            (though I guess the UK has rules against that)"

            Why?

            Partly on my logic (or what passes for logic with my brain), and how May's gone into coalition with DUP rather than going alone - if FPP meant the party with the most votes automatically got to govern then May wouldn't need someone else, would she? Or is it that Corbyn could've been talking to others to try and build a majority himself?

        3. Alan Brown Silver badge

          "With FPTP it's theoretically possible for a party with say 30% of the vote to govern "

          Labour and the Conservatives have been swapping power with barely 35% for decades, so it's not exactly theoretical.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "I wonder if a BOFH-style negotiating round would be good for the UK? I do know where I can get several desks. And a secure room."

          No, no, no - please tell me you haven't mentioned this in front if any reality TV producers ......

          1. Kiwi Silver badge
            Coat

            "I wonder if a BOFH-style negotiating round would be good for the UK? I do know where I can get several desks. And a secure room."

            No, no, no - please tell me you haven't mentioned this in front if any reality TV producers ......

            I have. To get the license, they need to enter this secure negotiating room. The winner leaves by the, er, "special" exit on the other side of the building.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        PR proper means you never get a change of government. The jobs are just moved around amongst the elite who run the parties. AV as proposed was quite attractive, particularly as it preserved the local link, but it means that the least disliked candidate wins, which generally means vanilla vanilla vanilla.

        I think of FPTP as showing who has the biggest army, and it seems as reasonable a philosophical basis for electing a candidate or a government as any.

        Think very hard about it.

        1. BanburyBill

          Vanilla vanilla? See the Australian Federal Parliament?

        2. Stork Silver badge

          PR/FPTP

          FPTP: going from one extreme to the other.

          PR: Between centre-right and centre left. Tends to get decisions most people can live with.

          In Germany they have PR with a 5% threshold. Will anyone seriously claim that (West) Germany has been worse governed the last 60 years than the UK?

          1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
            Unhappy

            "Will anyone seriously claim that Germany has been worse governed the last 60 years"

            People always cite Italy as why PR is a bad idea but Germany shows that the devil is always in the details.

            Mind you May was right. A wrong decision could lead to a "Coalition of chaos."*

            Except she didn't realize she'd be (nominally) leading it.

            *Although "Coalition of Chaos" does sound like a Marvel gang of super villains. Not sure who'd be in it.

        3. Kiwi Silver badge
          Boffin

          PR proper means you never get a change of government.

          We've had huge changes of government since we brought in MMP. For a start, we instantly got shot of the 2-party system the UK still has, smaller parties can get in and make a difference. Also, while we're currently stuck with the the party that builds banks so their constituents can live in cars on the side of the road (rather than the party who builds roads and affordable houses to line them), hopefully we'll have a change later this year. We have been stuck with them since 2008, and have had the economic and social damage to boot, but, God willing, later this year we get to boot them out. FPP may've given us a lefty governent more recently, but more people voted for the seldom-right parties and the centrist parties who went with National, so they got in, as it should be (as in their side got a higher % of the votes. Had we had FPP Labour could've got in with a pitiful % of votes but by getting the largest number overall..)

          Think very hard about it.

          I do not write this as a slur. Unlike yourself, I actually have the experience of living in a PR system for most of my life, under NZ's MMP system. We voted for it in 1993, which was when I was also eligible to vote. Largely it was due to issues such as :

          "By the 1970s many people were disillusioned with both National and Labour. More voters began to look to alternative parties, but the FPP system did them no favours. Social Credit, the leading third party since 1954, won 16% of the overall vote in 1978 but only one seat out of the 92 in Parliament. Three years later nearly 21% of electors voted for Social Credit, but the party gained just two seats."
          (from "The road to MMP", second page, at NZHistory.govt.nz).

          I can vote for a smaller party and have them actually form part of the government. We have had parties be part of the government with just 1 seat (we have 120seats in NZ, 61 seats needed to form a government either direct or by coalition). We aren't limited to a 2-party system such as the UK is often stuck with. And yes, at times those small parties have been able to hold the leading party "hostage" to get something done or stopped, often something the main party wants but the electorate doesn't. Those who've gone the other way, well, we do have quite a history of parties that've come and gone in my time as a voter.

          HTH

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Unfortunately the AV vote got rejected in the 2011 referendum thanks to the two big parties campaigning against it."

        The AV system would have made very little difference when compared to the FPTP system. Parties with an even distribution of support across the country could have come second in many constituencies - but won no seats overall.

        Many of the people who voted against AV wanted a PR system. Settling for AV would have allowed the government to close off the issue for at least a generation.

      4. Stork Silver badge

        "avoids extreme parties getting into power"

        Didn't work this time. To me DUP is plenty extreme (and linked to (ex-)terrorists too)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "avoids extreme parties getting into power"

          To me DUP is plenty extreme (and linked to (ex-)terrorists too)

          Just like Corbyn and the Labour left.

      5. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "Unfortunately the AV vote got rejected in the 2011 referendum thanks to the two big parties campaigning against it."

        It got rejected because it's virtually identical to FPTP. Those who want a PR system mostly want MMP/Alternative member, which gives the best proportionality.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Teresa may

    But Donald won't

    Resign.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Teresa may

      "But Donald won't"

      What does a petulant 5 year old do when the other kids complain about him breaking the game's rules? He either bursts their ball - or if it is his then he takes it home.

      Trump would resign and try to claim it as a victory over "those losers".

      1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
        Unhappy

        "Trump would resign and try to claim it as a victory over "those losers"."

        Actually I'd expect him to say it was people own fault for electing him, as they knew what he was like.

  13. Geoffrey W

    Oh, and for want of a better place to unload, can I get something off my chest that has been haunting me ever since seeing the Mays on the One Show; As soon as I saw Mr May I just knew I'd seen him somewhere before. It drove me mad until it hit me...Mr May is Larry Laffer, AKA Leisure Suit Larry...He is! He Is!

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Happy

      "Mr May I just knew I'd seen him somewhere before. Mr May is..Leisure Suit Larry."

      Looked up the graphics on this game.

      OMG if he loses the glasses....

  14. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    IT Angle

    I had the misfortune

    of finding wens and thurs copies of the sun* (they were in the emergency toilet paper dispenser)

    Both editions were full of "JC is a terrorist supporting commie marxist Britian hating 2 faced barsteward"

    And no sign of any explaining of the tory position apart from "god save the queen " and "may is wonderful"

    With the amount of hate fired at JC, I'd begin to suspect he has the backers of such rags (and the daily wail/excess) worried in case he won and took their tax breaks away... and with that amount of hate, JC could have been worth voting for...

    *I'd like to see some honesty in the media with the sun/wail/excess being renamed "Voice of the conservative party" or something...

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "*I'd like to see some honesty in the media with the sun..enmaed "Voice of the conservative party" "

      Well in the Sun's case (Britain's biggest circulation daily newspaper IIRC) that should read

      "Voice of Rupert Murdoch."

      Rupe rarely gives interviews but I saw one he gave years ago and said roughly "I'll be talking to the Political Editor (of the Sun) on who they will support. The Times will support who they want"

      It's pretty clear who tells the Sun what to think. It's pretty clear Murdoch thinks they are an important part of controlling who gets elected in the UK, along with the (alleged) Blackmail collecting machine that was the News of the World.

      And as long as UK politicians believe it and do nothing about cross media ownership, it will be true.

  15. Mark 85 Silver badge

    The Race to the Bottom.

    I guess it's continuing with these election results? Otherwise, the US wins it. Then again, seems that lately all any election has been about least bad choices.... <sigh>

  16. Tim99 Silver badge
    Coat

    Strong and Stable

    as my flabby arse.

  17. jason 7 Silver badge

    Govt go Digital?

    I think I would push to keep it all on paper. At least the buggers have to have the balls to break into a building in in the UK to get at the info.

    The paper will probably last longer too.

  18. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    "Weak and wobbly." More like Weebly.

    I saw something about an old toy which had the tag line "Weebles wobble but they don't fall down"

    Personally I'd say it would have been better for the UK if she had fallen down.

    But she's just weebled, and with the DUP she's back up again.

  19. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    Tax money well spent?

    It's been estimated the election cost the UK taxpayer £130m

    Or roughly £5.2 million to lose each seat of the existing absolute majority the Conservatives had.

    Fortunately that's not their money, so no harm done to party funds.

    Of course if you were a UK tax payer who didn't vote Conservative you might not agree.

  20. Ken Moorhouse Silver badge

    It is looking obvious that we're not in a position...

    ...to negotiate our way out of a paper bag at the moment, let alone negotiating with 27 other nations to leave the EU.

    Clearly we should stop the clock on Article 50 until we're ready to continue.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      "Clearly we should stop the clock on Article 50 until we're ready to continue."

      An excellent plan sir except for one small detail.

      There is no provision to "stop the clock" on Article 50.

      If May's goal in calling this election really was to "get a stronger mandate from the British people" then the honest thing to do is to have another election, since her mandate is considerably weaker. Y'know, "the only poll that counts."

      Fortunately Germany will be having an election this September, which suggests there is a window where the UK could have another shot at forming a government with an actual absolute majority.

      This would demand decisive action by the Conservatives and acceptance they might lose outright, but place whoever did win (assuming an absolute majority this time) in a stronger position. IOW doing what's right for the UK, not necessarily the Conservative party.

      I'm joking of course.

      This whole situation has been driven by Tory party leadership being so terrified of UKIP that it put its survival above anything so trivial as a 40YO+ trade agreement with the largest, closest trading block the UK deals with. Does self interest come much more blatant than that?

      IRL there is (apparently) a provision to extend the deadline.

      It requires all other EU countries to agree to do so.

      27 way negotiations to get such an extension are likely to be quite challenging and require a very determined British effort to achieve ("Send lawyers, guns and money," as the late Warren Zevon put it). :-(

      In hindsight it would seem obvious that the first question you should ask if you're planning to run a "Presidential" style campaign based on your candidates personality is to check they actually have one. :-(

      I think there's some irony in the fact that AFAIK neither May nor Corbyn were ever anyone's first choice for anything. The difference is I don't think Corbyn was that ambitious, but has risen to the occasion, while May was but has been exposed as well, not much, although with a nice dress sense.

  21. uncommon_sense
    Headmaster

    "causalities"

    Real journos don't use word substitute...

  22. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    And so the "Coaltion of Chaos" begins....

    As May and her new BFF Arlene sit down to chew the fat over what they want and what they will give for it.

    Am I the only one thinking "Avengers. Assemble" ?

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Highlight of the night...

    You'd have to have a heart of stone to not take some joy from watching Clegg get unceremoniously booted out.

    The fool that sacrificed every supposed 'principle' he held in exchange for a ministerial car and the trappings of office has had the feelings of the electorate made very clear to him.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Gimp

      "The fool that sacrificed every supposed 'principle' he held in exchange for a ministerial car"

      You forgot to mention "And putting the brakes on the data fetishists 27/7/365 surveillance plans."

      and

      "getting stabbed in the back by the Conservatives at every turn. Forget 'The Nasty Party,' Tories are "The Expedient Party.' "

      and

      "Made the Lib Dems a party of government for the first time (including their predecessors) in a century, which is better than being a party of protest (ask UKIP how that feels)"

      OTOH.

      The Lib Dems have increased their seat count by 50%, including the return of Vince Cable (Someone with a good nose for BS) to the Commons. I think that's a hell of a sight better than most commentators were expecting.

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