Pence v Clinton: Both used private email for work, one hacked, one accused of hypocrisy

US Vice President Mike Pence has been accused of hypocrisy after it was revealed he used his personal AOL account for state government business. That Pence had a personal AOL account was public knowledge – rather embarrassingly, it was hacked last year and the intruder sent out emails to his contacts saying he had been mugged …

[Snake]

A suprise?

Republican hypocrisy? Better than everyone else attitude? Double standards?

No, couldn't happen! [/s]

Europe just announce possible retaliative actions regarding excessive American border exams of European citizens. About time. The only way to crush arrogance is to show that yes, there *will* be repercussions to your acts and everyone simply won't bow down to you like a slave.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A suprise?

Different governments, different standards, don't see why that's a problem.

As far as the retaliations go I hope it's of the kind;

"What do you do for work?"

"I work for the U.S. government."

<snaps on rubber gloves and picks up a riding crop> "Right this way, we've got a few questions."

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: A suprise?

There is no hypocrisy on the part of the Republicans.

There is however hypocrisy on the part of the Democrats.

This is a non story. Pence had a state email address and conducted most of his business thru the official email address. 29 'pages'. So how many emails exactly?

Compared to how many pages from Clinton. Not just what she returned to State, and the FBI, but also what the FBI recovered from the server and from the other accounts like Sidney's ? Bit of a big difference by a couple of order of magnitude.

And then you have the issue of Pence's actions not being illegal.

Clinton? Oh yeah. No question. Post election and in January, the FBI quietly dumped emails between Clinton and Sidney which contained classified material including some SIGINT. (IIRC)

There's more and if you're following US politics, the Democrats are imploding and have shown a lot of hypocrisy on their part. Its beyond laughable and there needs to be a bit of housecleaning. Its not that we should remove them and replace them with Republicans, but remove them and replace them with members of their own party. We need to have some semblance of balance between the two parties as they diverge to the extreme Right and Left.

As an independent (never been a member of either party, or any party for that matter) , I have to say that its the Democrats who are acting like petchulant children.

[macjules]

Re: A suprise?

Perhaps you do not quite understand the meaning of hypocrisy. Just to help here is the Wikipedia definition:

Hypocrisy is the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations, especially with respect to religious and moral beliefs; hence in general sense, dissimulation, pretense, sham.

Now, saying that it was wrong for Clinton to use her personal email account for government business, while at the same time Pence was doing exactly the same thing himself equals hypocrisy.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@macjules Re: A suprise?

Sorry, you fail to actually grasp the issue.

Pence used his personal AOL account for some emails. Was this right? No, however it wasn't illegal and had he cc'd his state government email address, it would have been 100% Kosher. John Kerry and other in the government have done the same thing. Except here. Kerry, while a Senator used his personal email account to email Clinton's private email server account and the content I believe contained classified material.

Now, did we see John Kerry a Democrat, getting his pee pee spanked by the Obama Administration? Or anybody? No.

So there's your hypocrisy.

With respect to Clinton. She didn't just use a personal email account for some of her emails, SHE USED A PERSONAL SERVER FOR ALL EMAILS. Now unlike Pence where there are no laws or official records act for Governors, there is a law on the books for Federal Government Officials in certain high ranking positions that require them to retain documents and in the 90's then President Bill Clinton signed into the law the inclusion of emails.

So, just by setting up the server in an effort to skirt the Official Records Act, Hillary Clinton and her staff committed a crime. Its only a misdemeanor count per email, but still criminal.

Now because she used it for all of her communications, that means she transmitted and stored classified material in a manner that too is illegal. That's in the felony range of criminal acts. She violated the Espionage Act. A Federal Crime

Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton did. So where's the hypocrisy in that?

Short answer, there is none.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @macjules A suprise?

Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton did. So where's the hypocrisy in that?

Short answer, there is none.

Making a big stink about your political opponent using personal email for government business, while you yourself do the same, is hypocrisy - no matter how relatively benign your misuse is in comparison.

On the flip side, making a big stink about your political opponent using personal email for government business, while previously having downplayed a similar, but much more serious, case of misuse by your erstwhile political ally, is also hypocrisy.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@AC Re: @macjules A suprise?

Sorry, you still don't get it.

Lets try this again.

Clinton was Secretary of State.

Pence was Governor of IN.

Clinton must follow the law and retain all emails. See Official Records Act which includes email.

Pence has no restriction.

Clinton destroyed emails.

Pence didn't. They were all turned over and some were withheld by current IN government officials.

Pence had a government account. Clinton didn't.

Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton DID.

Got that? No hypocrisy on the part of Pence because he didn't break the law and was critical of Clinton who did.

HOWEVER, there is hypocrisy of the Democrats because like Pence, there are many in office who have used their personal accounts for government business. I used John Kerry because he got caught up using his personal account and its in the public eye. Clinton's staff also used personal accounts from time to time. So its hypocritical to go after Pence...

[Deltics]

Re: @macjules A suprise?

The stink made was about laws being broken. The crimes involved a personal email server, not the legal albeit curious use of a personal email ACCOUNT.

[brainbone]

Re: Espionage Act

What you're missing is "intent". You, nor anyone else, has established any criminal intent or harm in Clinton's use of a private email server -- and not for lack of trying. Was it a dumb thing to do? Yes. Did it actually cause any issues? No.

That said, Clinton should have been, and was, and length, investigated over the issue. Now, will you say the same about Trump's campaign and the potential of Russian influence, or do you believe Trump should be immune from investigation over this?

[tom dial]

Re: Espionage Act

Clinton's personal server for State Department email correspondence violated federal law, government-wide regulations, and State Department instructions, none of that having anything to do with the espionage act. Those federal laws and standards did not apply to Mike Pence during his service as governor of Indiana, and by all reports I have seen, including this one, he complied with the applicable Indiana laws.

As far as whether Clinton's actions were damaging, in view of reports of the fundamental vulnerability of clintonemail.com, including in The Register, along with secure erasure of the servers' disks and destruction of all backups before the servers were examined by government forensic specialists, the only safe and reasonable conclusion is that everything on the server came into possession of at least one foreign intelligence service. That no evidence was found (if true) is of no consequence.

[Sigfried]

Re: Espionage Act

Intent, intent, WTF, Clinton deliberately deleted tens of thousands of emails from her server so that they could not be recovered. Those included (for example) over 1,000 eMails to/from the then head of the US army and later head of the CIA, Petraeus. How could those, under any consideration whatsoever be considered personal. And highly confidential information WAS found in some of the Clinton eMails, item so secret that they were never supposed to leave the strictly compartmentalized systems that they are stored on.

Clinton absolutely lied and committed perjury about the content of her server as well. She testified before a Federal Judge with regard to an FOI suit that she had released ALL relevant eMails; which as the limited items recovered by the FBI showed to be a false claim. Then to top it off, AFTER the outstanding eMails were sub-poena'd she had the emails deleted and the server scubbed to prevent recovery.

Contrast Pence; used private eMail for SOME official business which is NOT illegal for a Governor, and he has cooperated in retrieving ALL those emails and having them placed on the public record.

You Clintonista's just can't help yourselves can you.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@brianbone Re: Espionage Act

You seem to not understand the law as well as you think.

Intent isn't required when you're charging someone with gross negligence. By definition you can't intentionally be negligent.

As to intent. They can show it.

[Deltics]

Re: Espionage Act

It contributed significantly to her losing the election and putting Trump in the Whitehouse.

No harm you say ? O.o

[martinusher]

Re: @macjules A suprise?

Clinton 's private mail server was primarily for Clinton business, not State Department business. She had in place a written policy about what traffic was to be used by her own domain. The fact that some traffic ended up on her server that shouldn't have been there was unfortunate -- careless -- but it doesn't show wholesale disregard for the law, just that you can't control everything that ends up in your in-box.

Clinton was hammered because there were a significant number of inbound messages missing, those 30,000, which as we all know were a big part of the cover up of Benghazi in the alt-right looking glass world..In our world they were probably junk, much f which would be discarded automatically.

This episode is just another example of how anything, any detail no matter how tiny, is used to beat down someone like Clinton. Meanwhile we've got an Administration which just plain doesn't play by any rules -- conflict of interest, security screening, ethics, it plain doesn't matter. In threads like this we usually see a fair number of posts defending them but I've noticed that the numbers dropped off sharply in recent weeks, I'd guess because you'd have to be really blind or totally committed to believe that this crew is anything but a bunch of self-serving incompetents.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @macjules A suprise?

What bullshit, straight from the Clinton spin machine. There was almost NO private email found on the Clintonmail server, it WAS used for ALL Clinton's State Department emails. She may have issued a written policy to others, and in fact presided over people being fired for using private email. But Clinton herself never used any email system other than her own privately controlled one the whole time she was SOS. "Just careless because you can't control....." sweet Jesus, how deluded do you have to be to believe and trot out that stuff now ?

She had the server wiped and scrubbed after receiving a valid subpoena for the retention of the same. Amongst those scrubbed was over 1,000 between Clinton (and staff) and General Petreaus, at times head of the Army and head of the CIA. Private, don't make a bigger fool of yourself.

And those not recovered, which is a great many, more probably dealt with "donations" to the Clinton's in exchange for favours. Funny how the "Clinton Global Initiative" has folded up shop already after the election - no more graft to be extorted.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@martinusher Re: @macjules A suprise?

Hate to break it to you mate, wrong on so many levels.

In fact there is so much evidence to show the contrary you could write a book on it.

Here's one of the simple facts that kills your theory.

The domain was created just before Clinton accepted the offer to be SoS.

(Oops!)

She had no written policy nor was allowed to do it.

At the same time, she turned down having a .gov domain email address.

(oops #2)

Do you really want to go on? It gets worse from here.

Like Cheryl Mills who knew about the server, claimed that there were no emails in response to a FOIA request. (Ooops #3) Oh and there's your intent. At least one of the several reasons...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @macjules A suprise?

@martinusher, your post is just too juicy. Please allow me to put my spin on it, k?

"Clinton 's private mail server was primarily for Clinton business, not State Department business."

Correct. But the two were mixed together, weren't they? Who cares how much private Clinton email was on there?

"She had in place a written policy about what traffic was to be used by her own domain. The fact that some traffic ended up on her server that shouldn't have been there was unfortunate -- careless -- but it doesn't show wholesale disregard for the law, just that you can't control everything that ends up in your in-box."

Um, the whole point of the State Department email system is to segregate all official department emails into a secure environment, right? And Hillary's own husband signed the law requiring her to use it. Also, it seems rather convenient for you to say it's all accidents with no bad intentions when the result is she got to control and hide what she wanted to. That's usually considered suspicious where I come from.

"Clinton was hammered because there were a significant number of inbound messages missing..."

Maybe so, but I wasn't paying attention to that, were you? I was riveted by the revelation that a presidential candidate had actually been caught with classified communications in her private possession, and while serving her country as Secretary of State no less.

"This episode is just another example of how anything, any detail no matter how tiny, is used to beat down someone like Clinton."

What? I thought Pence was getting the beat down here. ;-)

"Meanwhile we've got an Administration which just plain doesn't play by any rules..."

Oh, he's obeying the official rules all right, all propaganda aside. If he weren't then it would be official charges already, considering the charged climate in DC right now.

But I perceive a subtext to your plaint, and that is that Trump isn't playing by the real rules, the ones he's supposed to obey. Primarily he should not talk back when spoken to harshly by his betters in the Press. And it's true; President Trump doesn't just break those rules, he mangles them and leaves them for dead. About time too.

[buddhaha]

Re: @macjules A suprise?

>Clinton 's private mail server was primarily for Clinton business, not State Department business.

Let me fix that for you: ... primarily for MIXING Clinton business with State Department business.

Pay for play. Baksheesh. Mordida. The only difference between HRC and some clerk in India's equivalent of the Department of Motor Vehicles is the number of zeros on the end of the bribe.

[bernardo.ortiz]

Re: A suprise?

Hate to defend VP Pense, but...

Clinton was secretary of state - secrecy is required due to the nature of the job!

Pense was governor - any high official in any company or government is expected to use the official e-mail for official business. This is bad practice, not illegal. This gives the government the right to review all his e-mails, personal and government, and hold retention policies, becoming part of the public record in it's entirety, regardless of how private a matter he is discussing (the whole reason we have different e-mail accounts).

As for hypocracy, Clinton fired direct employees who used their personal e-mail accounts for business duties while serving as Secretary of state. I have heard of no such similar complaint from Pense.

Don't get me wrong, Pence should be called to task and forced to use his government e-mail account for all official duties. This in and off itself is bad policy, not illegal, as Clinton's action were. Just to add, if he does this as VP, then his actions would be illegal ( a matter of breach of national security).

[tom dial]

Re: A suprise?

In his present position, Pence is required to use US government facilities for (almost) all official communication.

"Almost" because use of non-government facilities is not entirely forbidden for practical reasons. There may be instances in which it is impossible or impractical to use them, and there are procedures to deal with that, normally including copying or forwarding the message to the account which normally should have been used.

[Voland's right hand]

Re: A suprise?

Republican hypocrisy?

Why just republicans? I can think of a handful of modern politicians which have not been caught as hypocrites. The remaining thousands (if not tens of thousands) are all glaring hypocrites.

[bombastic bob]

Re: A suprise?

"Republican hypocrisy? Better than everyone else attitude? Double standards?"

More like 'Politician hypocrisy." But there are those out there with blinders on who would 'feel' otherwise.

Eh, nothing surprises me about this, really. Too many glass houses there in D.C.

(which is why I'm glad Trump 'the outsider' is president, now)

As for who broke the law and who didn't, I guess you COULD open up an investigation on Pence, but I think the article already stated he complied with Indiana laws, which apparently don't prevent you from having a personal account as long as everything gets archived for "hysterical porpoises". And now we see a possible motivation for NOT going after Mrs. Clinton. Who knew?

I just want OBAKA-CARE to die, no more 'individual mandate' specifically, and the tax cuts and de-regulation. Then let the press have their feeding frenzy while our lives all improve.

[note to the howler monkeys: you may not like my posts, and that's fine, going into a downvote frenzy just because it's me (maybe), but if you want me to go away, pray to whatever god you might believe in, or the spaghetti monster if you don't, that I get PLENTY more work, so that I'm not averting boredom by posting here, ha ha ha ha ha]

[JCitizen]

Re: A suprise?

WHAT??!!! He used AOL!!!! Well he should bloody well be run up to a yard arm for that!

[cyke1]

Even though it was wrong to use the server, the security risk of pence doing it was minor since he was only gov of a state and had limited access to sensitive material where as Hillary being head of state department, the 2nd most powerful person in the country pretty much besides the president did. She had access to top level national secrets and classified information. Both were wrong but Clinton's is worse give the level of access in to sensitive material she had and sent using that server.

[BillG]

Apples and Oranges

Even though it was wrong to use the server, the security risk of pence doing it was minor

Yes. Also, Pence had a government email account and he used it. As a state governor, Pence had limited access to classified material and most of that was financial records.

Hillary, on the other hand, ONLY had a personal email account and NO government email account. As Sec of State she had access to the most privileged state secrets, many of which were critical to the national security of the U.S. and allies. It's not the same.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: Apples and Oranges

Pence had no access to classified materials. He didn't hold a security clearance.

He had access to confidential material.

Bit of a big difference.

But yes, we're in violent agreement. :-)

Oh and lets not forget the perjury charges because Hillary signed certain documents that she understood her obligations on how to handle classified material. (Same for her staff)

[oldcoder]

Re: Apples and Oranges

I believe he did hold a clearance. It most likely not top secret though, but secret.

Why, because as governer he is in some control over the local national guard. Thus how those units are dispatched is a secret level message, but has to be passed to the governor.

Thus access to "confidential material".

As for Clinton, the Department of States mail servers were known to already be compromised.

[sinnerFA]

Re: Apples and Oranges

Its a on need-to-know basis for governor security clearances. But they go through a long drawn out process like the rest of us the citizens, unlike the President, house and senate. Honestly, it no surprise why there are sooo many leaks, having people that are not trained or vetted properly. And of course, virtually have no consequences.

[buddhaha]

Re: Apples and Oranges

> Thus access to "confidential material".

"Confidential material" does not necessarily mean "material having a security level 'CONFIDENTIAL' "

As governor, he was privy to things like personnel disciplinary actions, ongoing contract negotiations, the financial statements of companies doing business with the state which required confidentiality agreements, etc.

The emails withheld from public disclosure more than likely this,rather the NG troop movements :-).

[nerdbert]

Re: Apples and Oranges

You also need to consider that it was *illegal* for Pence to use his state government email for personal email. That there was some spillover between political and state emails is almost guaranteed in such situations. Even if Pence obeyed all the rules, there's the case where a donor might email the governor's personal email for some assistance with bureaucratic red tape down the road.

And to compare that to Clinton's situation is laughable. We already know that Clinton was required by law to turn over *all* work related emails, yet she culled numerous emails that were obviously work related from the cache she turned over and that were only recovered by the FBI getting them from other sources not inside the government. She was actively trying to make sure that none of her political emails were subject to FOIA by running her own filter, and she violated the law by not turning over all the email that she was legally obliged to do. Pence has no such similar intentional violation of Indiana laws.

[stu 4]

What's more important -

1. this arse-piece used a personal email account for business email (and AOL..wow..u couldn't make it up)

2. said arse-piece believes world is 6000 year old and was created literally in 7 days by a magical invisible fairy, gays can be electric-shocked straight and women should be jailed for having abortions.

It's like picking on hitler for having shit hair cut.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Stu

I think you are clouding the issue.

Pence for all of his questionable religious beliefs are his right. We have this thing called Freedom of Religion, where as the UK has an official state church (CoE) and still there are fights between Christians. (Catholics and Protestants )

As to AOL... you're showing your age. Several other key leaders have had AOL accounts which also have been hacked.

Oh and I call Goodwin on you.

[jake]

Re: @Stu

Gumby, it's Godwin, damn it!

[quxinot]

Re: @Stu

>Gumby, it's Godwin, damn it!

Calling you a nazi for spelling would be in bad taste here, I think. :)

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Jake Re: @Stu

Yeah, you're right.

Typo on my part.

I was actually around when this 'law' was first created back in the USENET days.

[jake]

Re: @Jake @Stu

Apparently you don't go back to 1982 ... Gawd/ess, has it really been 35 years?

Out of curiosity, did anyone still reading this thread STR?

[DavCrav]

Re: @Stu

"Pence for all of his questionable religious beliefs are his right. We have this thing called Freedom of Religion, where as the UK has an official state church (CoE) and still there are fights between Christians. (Catholics and Protestants )"

Yeah, the US doesn't discriminate against certain religions. Apart from Islam, of course.

[Yet Another Anonymous coward]

The question we need answering

Did any of his republican friends offer to send any money when "he" emailed to say he had been mugged?

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: The question we need answering

No.

They were waiting till they got the call begging them to take him back.

Oh wait, that was Tim Kane who was forced to sit with the Republicans during Trump's speech to a combined Congress just earlier in this week.

My Bad.. All those politicians seem to look and act alike.

[cmaurand]

Indiana

Sorry for the correction. Governor of Indiana. Indianapolis is a city with an interesting speedway.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: Indiana

Dude!

Have you been to Indiana?

Seriously outside of Indianapolis its almost all farm lands. Of course across the bridge from Chicago, you do have a couple of casinos and strip clubs.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Fail on El Reg's part.

I would expect this from a typical Mainstream Media rag, not from a technical site like El Reg.

Clearly there is a major difference between Pence and Clinton's case and the only reason this is making any sort of news is that its getting closer to the DoJ and the FBI to do a real investigation in to Clinton.

To start with... Pence used a personal AOL account. Similar to what John Kerry did and other politicians. I'm sure if we were able to subpoena all of the email accounts used by Congressmen, we'll see a lot of out of channel communication. Unlike Kerry, Pence didn't have access to classified material, nor communicate with Hillary Clinton on a classified topic.

Also its important to point out that Pence had and primarily used an official state email account for most of his official communication.

Then we have Hillary Clinton.

1) She didn't use a personal account. She set up herself a personal server.

2) Said server was used for ALL of her communication. She lacked any sort of .gov email address.

3) Clinton illegally transmitted and retained classified material on said server.

4) Clinton lied about her server.

5) All the while she kept mum about her server she was instructing her staff to refrain from using a personal email account, not to mention she terminated an ambassador to Kenya for using his own personal email account.

There's more, but I think I made some key points as to the differences.

And the investigation led by the FBI was severely hampered and thwarted by the DOJ by not allowing a Grand Jury to be en paneled which meant that they could only ask questions and not use the force of a subpoena. In order to get some to talk, they were given full blanket immunity to those involved.

To be clear, Pence didn't break any laws. Clinton however did.

And if anyone wants to claim otherwise because Comey didn't call for her to be indicted, post election during the NFL playoffs, the FBI released 30+ emails between Clinton and Sidney Blumenthal, her shadow agent. In these emails there were discussions containing classified material. (Including Top Secret SigInt).

Now that alone is enough to kick of an indictment because its also a known fact that Israel, Russia and China had hacked his email account. Not to mention that's how the world found out about Clinton's private server.

Again, big difference between Pence, as Governor not breaking any laws and Clinton and her staff who broke enough laws and counts to spend the rest of her life in prison if convicted.

A fail on El Reg for sloppy reporting.

[Richard 12]

Abject and total fail on your part

You *do not know* what Pence emailed using his personal email service.

He, the operators of his email server - and the group that hacked into it - are the only people who might.

He demanded that Clinton's use of a personal email service for Government business be investigated by the FBI.

Pence's use of his own personal email service for Government business also be investigated by the FBI.

There is no difference here. Both breached their duty, both must be investigated and, if anything is found, prosecuted.

In fact, so far we know that a great many, possibly a majority of US officials have used personal email services.

Clinton is the only one who has been investigated, and it was found that she had no case to answer.

Unless you are willing to subject your own side to such investigation, you are a pure, unadulterated hypocrite.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Abject and total fail on your part

We do know, or at least everything that has not been restricted because of confidential information said to be contained.

Pence has co-operated and has released all his emails.

He has NOT deleted and then scrubbed his account

He has NOT lied under oath about the content and release of said emails

He has NOT defied subpoenas to release his emails

Clinton may well have been investigated and not prosecuted, but not because there was no case to answer. Clinton was never going to be prosecuted by a Democrat controlled DOJ, and after the totally improper airfield meeting with Bill Clinton, the then head of the DOJ left the decision (improperly) in the hands of the FBI. The FBI then invented some new law that somehow attached intent to a law that specifically excluded intent and only required negligence. So the FBI was negligent but didn't mean to be....and given that Clinton did show intent with her deletion and wiping that was indeed a strange decision...so can we say whitewash, and in copious quantities.

She's still guilty of perjury and of ignoring a subpoena. And independent prosecutor would have no hesitation indicting Clinton and her aides on perjury and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Richard 12 Re: Abject and total fail on your part

Unlike Clinton, Pence didn't delete his emails. In fact he turned them over.

[veti]

Re: Fail on El Reg's part.

If you wouldn't expect this from El Reg, you can't have been around here very long. Or you've got a very selective memory.

And if you would have expected it from a "typical Mainstream Media rag", I can only assume you've got a very strange idea of what those look like, too. For your information:

Here is the Guardian's coverage

Here is the BBC's

Here is the "failing New York Times".

All of which go out of their way to make the same points you made.

My guess is that your only exposure to "Mainstream Media" is what various probably-right-wing tools tell you they're saying.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Veti Re: Fail on El Reg's part.

Son, you need to dig a bit deeper because the whole Clinton thing has been going on for over a year.

Many have done amazing contortions to bend over backwards for Clinton.

[strum]

Re: Veti Fail on El Reg's part.

>Son, you need to dig a bit deeper because the whole Clinton thing has been going on for over a year.

A year!?!?!

FFS, Republicans have been gunning for Hillary for decades.

[Charlie Clark]

Re: Fail on El Reg's part.

Mainstream Media rag

Conspiracy theory…

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Just to point out something:

Essentially, it was not illegal for Pence to use his personal email for work in Indiana, although he ought to have CC'd his official account when discussing state business – and he doesn't appear to have done so, judging from the released messages. Clinton was not outright banned from using a private system. However, she was required to maintain an easily accessible archive of her work messages for transparency and Freedom of Information Act purposes. If she used her state.gov address for all correspondence, it could have been archived by her department's IT, rather than a close circle of aides with fingers hovering over the delete button.

There is something important here.

Pence isn't required under the Official Records Act that was modified in 1994(IIRC) by Bill Clinton to include emails, while Hillary as SoS was. Note this is a criminal offense, however its only a misdemeanor.

While its not a felony, its still a criminal act. Pence isn't guilty of even that.

And also there's destruction of government property, theft, etc ... all against Clinton because she deleted emails and didn't turn everything over.

Again, a small nit compared to the violations of the Espionage Act.

[PhilipN]

Something missing in all this

Ask me how many email accounts I have - no clue.

There's a small number I set up and use regularly.

One or more I have probably forgotten about.

Others given automatically by one service provider or another which I may not even know about (e.g. broadband provider). Even while I think of it some of them spring to mind.

Running into double figures already.

Point : Almost anyone who is online regularly these days has a sprinkling of active addresses. So if I were Sec of State or Gov of Backwater USA I would be happy to let the dogs sniff around a selected email account and be happy they are too engaged to look for all the others.

Now when we get started on online storage ... G Drive, iCloud, One Drive, Dropbox, Cloudme, again broadband provider ... AND data automatically uploaded by one app or another ...there are definitely files secreted somewhere I have forgotten about ..

Kee-rist .. I also need to remember to clear out the draft emails folder otherwise I could be in BIG trouble.

Correction : Something major missing in all this

[Roo]

Drink the f up.

You guys must be paid to argue with yourselves on a beer night. For shame.

[just_me]

Re: Drink the f up.

I'm here with my beer in hand (actually large pub style glass). Not that light beer type - tend to a Double Barrel Ale, Newcastle, at minimum a hard cider... and then once properly readied - the arguments!

Note: theRegister; You need a beer glass that also contains a darker amber or even a Guinness.. that beer looks light.

[JasonLaw]

Re: Drink the f up.

"hard cider" - found the American. AICMFP.

[Phukov Andigh]

Re: Drink the f up.

be nice.

its not like we can walk the equivalent of a few States over to grab REAL beer. Its a long swim to where Real Beer comes from. So we gotta make do.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Drink the f up.

"that beer looks light."

No, it's just pale. There's a yuuuuuge difference between Heavy, Pale, Light, Lager and "lite", the latter being what I think you may be referring to. And the colour has little to do with alcohol content (apart from "lite")

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: Drink the f up.

Funny.

I'm here with a nice pour of a Single Malt.

[MrDamage]

Re: Drink the f up.

> "Note: theRegister; You need a beer glass that also contains a darker amber or even a Guinness.. that beer looks light."

>> "Funny.

I'm here with a nice pour of a Single Malt."

So you're saying we need an icon that's a pint glass full of good scotch?

I'll drink to that.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Mr. Damage Re: Drink the f up.

Absolutely.

Actually I lied.

I had a glass of Japanese Whiskey at the time.

I was really lucky in the 90's to build a nice selection of Single Malts, and I'm now slowly draining the bottles. Since it was just an ordinary Friday, I opted for a nice 17yr old from Japan.

I'm afraid I've got to cut back on the beer, and I'm a bit of a fan of the Williams Brothers that I had while in Scotland. Don't think I can find it here in the States.

Maybe we should have a forum for alcohol on El Reg? It seems alcohol and IT go together.

A little bit helps to lubricate the mind. A lot helps us to forget the Pointy Haired Managers who don't know shit and expect miracles to be pulled out of our asses and done yesterday.

[bombastic bob]

Re: Drink the f up.

for me, Tequila!

or a good ale.

[Flocke Kroes]

IOKIYR

gwb43.com

[tom dial]

Re: IOKIYR

Not right then, and less so (due to mishandling of classified material) in 2009 - 2013.

Clinton, having been in the Senate during their investigation of the Bush email matter, certainly should have had the wit to avoid the same mistake.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a fan of Pence, but there is no comparison. Pence have used poor judgement, but he didn't have access to classified information. And, he didn't set up a server to (apparently) circumvent the system put in place to protect classified information.

Clinton's situation is pretty clear cut... I wouldn't trust her to hold public office. She lost the election against someone that should have been easy beaten because she did something epicly stupid.

Come on... she wasn't able to recognize top secret emails that had (apparently) a top secret 'watermark' after being briefed on it. Even without a 'watermark' some things should obviously not be discussed outside of a secured system.

Now... if you want to bitch about Trump still using an unsecured phone, I'm all with you.

[tom dial]

I do not think Hillary Clinton loss of the presidential election had more than a tiny bit to do with her use of a personal and insecure server, quite unlawfully, to conduct all of her official email correspondence while Secretary of State. Only a tiny portion of the voting public understood the issue and why it was important. Something like a majority did not even seem to understand the difference between using a personally owned email system and a personal email account, even allowing for considerable intentional obtuseness in support of partisan leanings.

It also is doubtful that the dreaded Russian's had much to do with the election outcome. By the time that became public, nearly all voters had made their decision, and the stolen/leaked Democratic emails may well have been largely viewed as a party screw up that mainly confirmed what they already believed.

Hillary Clinton lost the election because she, and her staff, ran a lazy and sloppy campaign on the basis that Donald Trump was a buffoon for whom only the deplorables would vote; all the polls, or nearly all, clearly showed that she had no worries. She lost the election because she and her campaign staff failed to do the necessary calculations about the states in which she needed to win and then develop and execute a plan capable of winning them. She lost the election because, unlike both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders, she aroused no real enthusiasm in the voting population, and because her arrogance and evident sense of entitlement to the presidency stirred up nearly as much antipathy as did Trump.

Trump, on the other hand, had a less talented and professional staff, stirred them up regularly, paid little or no attention to polls, and campaigned aggressively right up to election day. In the end Clinton won a plurality of the national vote by winning big in a relatively small number of states (14 including the District of Columbia) and a plurality in 7 more. Trump won a majority of the vote in 23 states and a plurality in 7 more, and along with them a fairly large majority of the presidential electors.

[tom dial]

"Clinton was not outright banned from using a private system."

Actually, she was, by the Federal Information Security Management Act of 2002, the implementing standards NIST issued in 2006 or 2007, and the State Department instructions that particularized it all to the Department.

Pence, on the other hand, apparently operated within the bounds of the applicable Indiana laws and customary practice of earlier Indiana governors. FISMA would not apply unless Indiana law incorporated it explicitly. Use of AoL (twice) certainly could be thought imprudent, though it was far from operation of a poorly defended private server.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Tom Dial...

Sir, you get the issue.

The irony of this is that her hubby signed in to the official records act, the retention of emails. It means she committed a misdemeanor, out of the gate.

The whole system was created to thwart that and let Clinton run a shadow government. There's more to the Libya thing and I think it will get buried. Even Obama doesn't have clean hands and I doubt Valarie will pull an Oliver North.

Further irony. What Pence did was completely legal. His only mistake was that he didn't CC: his government account. Had he done that... there wouldn't be a problem. And of course while inexcusable, the content of said emails was innocuous.

The issue isn't about Pence, but that the Democratic party is out to do anything in the name of 'resistance'. I find that to be ethically wrong , child like and petty. As an independent voter, I think that Pelosi, Schumer, Waters and a couple other Democrats should be voted out at the end of their term. I don't care which party replaces them, but that these individuals have to go. They are part of the problem.

Note: I'm not suggesting Trump is going to do the right thing all the time, but for our government to work we need communication from both sides of the aisle. If Trump screws up, then you lay in to him. Right now the Dems are acting like cry babies because Hillary lost the election.

To your earlier post, she lost because she did run a sloppy election, but also because of the emails and her health, along with her years of being an ugly person. Add to this the fact that she was running because it was her time... really? Let us also not forget the pay to play scheme she and her hubby cooked up. She is as crooked as they come.

If you didn't read or believe 'Clinton Cash', the proof was in the hacks of the DNC and the Podesta emails.

Did the Russians have anything to do with it? Maybe a Russian hacker, who knows. It doesn't matter. It doesn't change the facts that Clinton and her campaign fixed the DNC primary in her favor. There is no excuse for that. Of all of the candidates, Kasich on the Right, and Bernie on the Left were the most honest and trust worthy. Biden should have ran and Clinton should have been indicted. Biden vs Kasich, Kasich would still have won.

There's more, but it doesn't matter unless you're a historian. Trump is #45 and he should be given a chance to do his job. Obama made a mess of things. More so than many realize. If you can't respect the man, at least respect the office.

[John Brown (no body)]

"Pence, on the other hand, apparently operated within the bounds of the applicable Indiana laws and customary practice of earlier Indiana governors."

You're probably right. But why would anyone in their right mind want to mix all that official business related email into their own personal account? I have a business email account on my employers domain and it gets used for business. It only gets given to legitimate business contacts. My personal email is personal and is NEVER given to business contacts. For some one in charge of running a sizable public body, whether that be state or country, I find it mind boggling that they would even consider using personal email for official business.

A few years ago, it might be possible to "forgive" based on lack of knowledge or understanding of the security implications, but in this day and age it's totally unforgivable. There is no way these people can claim ignorance.

[tom dial]

"All that official business" seems to involve fewer than three dozen email messages during Pence's four years as governor of Indiana. I am tempted to think that is less than 1% of his official email messages during that period.

I quite agree that overlapping personal and official email is undesirable, but it sometimes is unavoidable, just as it is not always possible to make business related telephone calls from a business telephone. When I worked in IT for the USDoD, before the agency provided a government laptop or cell phone I could use off premises. Accordingly, when something blew up in the middle of the night, I took the call on my home phone and used that and my personal email account (not server) for communication with the data center located in another state and the email account to document, for myself, my managers, and if necessary, the application users. Although that was well after use of government facilities became the approved means, the agency allowed it. I probably still have some old emails from that time, as it always has been easier and by some definition cheaper to increase storage than to search them out and purge them.

[Qwertius]

Ooops - who let the cat out of the bag.

Quote - ...it was feared Clinton's server would be hacked and ransacked for classified and other juicy information by foreign spies. There is no evidence that happened - end of quote

Oh so you mean - there is no proof Russians ever hacked Hillary's server or email account ?

Then why do the DNC & their MSmedia allies keep making their BS claim then ?

Want to know who really leaked all the DNC-Hillary material ? It was someone much closer to the DNC. Someone who - shortly afterwards - committed suicide by shooting himself in the back 6 times.

Seth Rich was murdered by paid DNC assassins as payback because he was the deep-throat who leaked the DNC emails. Why ? because Seth was a Bernie Sanders supporter who felt his side had been shafted by Crooked Hillary.

All this charade about contact with the Russians & the Russians being the hackers who brought down Hillary - is nothing more than a steaming pile of Bullsh*t.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: Ooops - who let the cat out of the bag.

Whoa! Slow down there cowboy!

Lets get the facts straight...

1) Clinton's private server.

We know Eastern European hackers were involved because of Guciffer.

We don't know how compromised it was because without having a grand jury, the Feds couldn't seize anything or compel testimony. What we do know is that a security researcher found her server to be running unsecured and easily hackable. Because of the attempts to 'wipe' the server. Data that would indicate a hack most likely lost. This is why they can claim no evidence of a hack yet it doesn't mean it wasn't hacked.

In addition, its actually a moot point. Clinton's emails to Sidney B. contained classified material and we know that he was hacked by at least 3 governments.

2) DNC hack.

Wikileaks knows their source and how they got the material.

I agree that its very suspect that a staffer was killed in a 'mugging gone wrong'. Then Assange offering a cash reward. (The DNC staffer getting killed in a mugging gone wrong didn't make the national news until after Assange's reward, so how did he hear about it?)

Pointing to Russia is an easy diversion. I agree. But the key issue isn't that they were hacked, but that they actually rigged the party's election.

3) Podesta's email account hack.

A 14 yr old could do that phish attack.

Again its not that he was hacked, but the material that was recovered.

Again, Russian involvement is going to be tough to prove. Script kiddies and serious hackers who may or may not have ties to a government, can get government styled code and hacks.

I agree with what you are saying. I broke it down and separated it because when you conflate news, you may end up with the wrong conclusion.

Now more importantly... Trump just accused Obama of wire tapping his NY office. This is an actual fact because Obama got a FISA warrant on their second request. Obama's tenure is turning out to be more opaque and more scandals.

[Version 1.0]

Friday night in the bar

Looks like most of the posts here are from drunk American Republicun's crying into their beer in the bar on Friday night. I wonder sometimes about El Reg's timing in posting articles like this - Well Done El Reg - looks like they all fell for it again!

"Hey guy's it's Friday and the pubs are open, let's close down the shop for the weekend. Hang on a sec - let me just post one more story to keep the yanks losing their shite and our ad revenue up ..."

Clickety click "Done, OK we're outa here"

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Version 1.0 ... Re: Friday night in the bar

Like Microsoft, I guess we'll have to wait until version 3.0 comes out. :-P

Seriously, I think you need a bit of a reality check.

The article was poorly written and mirrors the tripe we find in the main stream media.

The hack who wrote this needs to go back to journalism school.

If you bothered to do any sort of fact checking you'd see that its an apples to oranges situation and the only ones having a melt down are Pelosi and Schumer along with some other kooky Democrats.

The real question is why do you think this type of non-story is popping up?

On the one hand, the Democrats in Congress are taking a 'resistance to everything' mentality which is not good for anyone.

On the other.... As Trump gets his cabinet in place, Sessions and Congress will proceed to go after Clinton as they roll back all of the mess that Obama created. In fact, the sooner they en panel a real Grand Jury and the FBI does a real investigation and there's a special prosecutor put in place, the sooner we'll see this type of malarkey go away.

You get to choose.

[Version 1.0]

Re: @Version 1.0 ... Friday night in the bar

Ian, I have to hand it to your Republican friends - they've been saying for years that Big Government is evil and that it doesn't work - and I have to admit that I was skeptical about these claims but now, watching the Republicans attempt to govern, I have to admit that you do have a point.

At the present time "Republican Government" is looking like an oxymoron.

[Ian Michael Gumby]

Re: @Version 1.0 ... Friday night in the bar

Sorry,

Both parties blow chunks.

The problem is that the Republicans and Trump can't do their job thanks to the Democrats.

[Geoffrey W]

Re: @Version 1.0 ... Friday night in the bar

Firstly: I am fully prepared to accept that the current Pence/phone scandal is NOT the billy club that will bring the bastard down. And no one, I suspect, thinks it is. Rather it is a fly switch which will irritate and distract Pence and all around him and perhaps provoke anger as it is continually flicked in his face. This is good. These are the tactics the Republicans in general and Trump in particular employed with Clinton and it is right and proper that they themselves suffer the same irritation. The Republicans cannot blame the Democrats for doing what they themselves did during the campaign and during Obama's presidency. Well, they can, but they would be blatant hypocrites. Being Blatant is what the Republicans have always been masters of, while the Democrats have struggled. Now it's time the Republicans discover what it feels like to be on the receiving end. They are still masters of the art though while the Democrats are not, so it may not hurt fatally but, baby steps. Until the real weapons are unearthed.

Secondly: There will be no court case against Clinton, because a court case against Clinton cannot proceed if it does not also proceed against all the other politicians doing similar things, including many Republicans. IIRC it was a departing Republican who advised her to set up her own mail servers; Colin Powell.

The article was only poorly written because you disagree with its contents. It no more mirrors the tripe in the MSM (Main Stream Media) than Trumps rhetoric mirrors the tripe of the FRM (Far Right Media); IMHO even more tripier than that of the MSM.

For the best tripe of all see the countless comment boards to be found anywhere on the internet, such as this one.

[buddhaha]

Re: @Version 1.0 ... Friday night in the bar

Trash talk preceding and during a game is tactics. Trash talk after the game says sore loser.

[Geoffrey W]

@Ian Michael Gumby

You're putting in some hours today, Mr. Gumby. Are Big John and Bombastic Bob having a day off and you're official cover for them? You're doing a sterling job. I called them the Abbot and Costello of the far right; now I see you're the Three Stooges instead.

I'm afraid the Republicans are merely reaping the fruits of what they themselves sowed when Obama came to power. They set themselves up for it when they chose a candidate who presents more targets than a target factory whose roof and walls have blown off, and I am pleased to see the democrats are taking full advantage of the opportunities offered rather than being reasonable as the Republicans keep demanding they be. I hope Al Franken doesn't muzzle himself too much.

I also see that trump is attempting ease from his woes by claiming tapping of his personal phones by Obama; A nice example of diversionary tactic, making a claim without evidence to buoy up his own support.

Any bets on how long Sessions is going to last?

[Ian Michael Gumby]

@Geoff

You do realize that its Friday and some of us can knock off early.

And of course, as you read this... Trump just accused Obama of misusing FISA warrants.

And there's some merit to his claims.

Sessions is fine.

You probably didn't review the transcript of Franken's questions Or his response.

Remember Sessions is not only a lawyer, he's also been a judge.

I suggest you look up the legal definition and requirements for perjury.

Personally, I would like to see what Trump can do. It seems that the Democrats are acting like children because they can't handle that Trump won.

[Geoffrey W]

Re: @Geoff

RE: "And there's some merit to his claims. [of Obama's culpability]"

Just no evidence. Unless you call a Breitbart article evidence; an article with a similar lack of evidence beyond suspicion, speculation, and a general disposition to believe the worst of Obama.

[Deltics]

One might expect The Reg to know the difference between a SERVER and an ACCOUNT, No ?

Clinton used a personal email SERVER and is known to have used it for government business and is known to have DELETED thousands of records that she was required by law to retain.

Pence used a personal email ACCOUNT and any question as to whether he used that account for government business is even able to be raised only because records were kept, as required.

Hypocrisy ?

Yes. On the part of the Clinton apologists who protested that there was no issue since the fair lady could do no wrong when patently she had and are now baying for the blood of someone who equally patently has done something that is nothing even close to comparable, even if there is any questionable dimension to it at all.

[GrumpyKiwi]

Re: One might expect The Reg to know the difference between a SERVER and an ACCOUNT, No ?

I spent two years with a Top Secret clearance doing email server stuff for the British MoD. If I'd pulled half of what Clinton and her team of IT idiots pulled, I'd still be in jail with a "special friend" called Bubba, while being traded for cigarettes.

Anyone who doesn't recognise the difference between these two situations is a grade-A idiot and that includes the article author.

[cosymart]

Fart Free Area

Can I make a plea for the Register to be a Fart (as in Trump) free area to avoid the Merkins rerunning their pathetic convoluted presidential election and subsequent debacle.

[bombastic bob]

Re: Fart Free Area

"Can I make a plea for the Register to be a Fart (as in Trump) free area to avoid the Merkins rerunning their pathetic convoluted presidential election and subsequent debacle."

(oh yeah you just had to go there didn't you)

when El Reg posts articles about Trump, his administration, his policies, etc. it's all relevant, right?

And it's JOURNALISM to print/post such things, so there ya have it.

[Al Black]

Apples and Oranges

This is a media beat-up about nothing.

The issues around a Governor using an AOL account for his personal emails are quite different from a Secretary of State setting up a private email server and using it to distribute Federal top secret documents.

The latter is an intentional breach of federal law while the former is no breach of Indiana Law.

[rtb61]

WTF

Running a department wide server is no where near the fucking same as using a web mail account, seriously what the fuck?!?

One shows clear criminal intent, the other is just lazy and stupid.

[cashxx]

One was Secretary of State for the country, other was not!

One was a governor of a state and the other was the Secretary of State of the United States! Huge difference!

[Winkypop]

Pence

Pence is just another self-righteous, pseudo-christian, bigot with more to hide than Clinton but less than Trump. Time will tell with these frauds.

[JJKing]

Hypocritical Nutjobs

Intent, intent, WTF, Clinton deliberately deleted tens of thousands of emails from her server so that they could not be recovered.

So how do you respond to Dubya bush and his private email server that was hosted by the republican Party where twenty-two MILLION emails were destroyed (discs securely wiped) and this despite a Court Order for them to be preserved. Now compare that to Hillary's 33,000 emails and justify your hypocritical stance.

Short answer: MASSIVE!!

On a different note, I find it hypocritical that republicans praise their political comrade Comey for not commenting about ongoing investigations into the corrupt Drumpf's Russian connections, but were more than happy when Comey was commenting left, right and centre about the investigation into Clinton's email investigation DURING an election campaign.

Short answer again: MASSIVE!!

[jake]

Out of curiosity ...

... anybody know where the cowardly-lying-big-fat-orange-idiot-in-chief's sycophants hang out to coordinate this hilarity? Would be a fun place to troll ... these kids are funny when they get wound up :-)

[Potemkine]

Speck and Beam

No surprise there, as there is no surprise that the fascist crowd sustaining him will find whatever excuses to pardon him while condemning her. First of all Hillary Clinton is a woman, and that's already a great sin for the Trumpians.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most embarrassing part is that a encrypted email client will charge you less than 50 dollars a month. I just cannot begin to understand how this could have happened. If you're dealing with state secrets it's money well spend! Just switch to Startmail.com, Proton, whatever. There are so many! Check them all out at privacytools.io

[DrM]

Apples and Oranges

Pence was dumb and lazy, just using AOL was laziness, a shortcut.

The Clintons made a major effort to set up their own sever. It was set up to hide away the dealings of Clinton, Inc. and their pay-2-play influence peddling scheme.

Let's look at motivations?

[Anonymous Coward]

so, the big question is:

did he lie about it? did he go on public record saying there "were no emails" when asked about the account? Did he have the entire system set up and controlled so he could delete communications? and then pretend that he didn't do so?

the difference between building a server and using a public service is significant. And deleting files while under investigation while repeatedly claiming there was no server in the first place, until proven without a shadow of a doubt the system existed, then trying to claim the system was *never* used for "work" until THAT lie was exposed, finally getting allies to turn the discussion into whether or not the missing files were classified or not..THAT is a level of skeeviness well above and beyond Pence's pay grade.

More in line with the President's "university" and other dealings.