BT installs phone 'spam filter', says it'll strain out mass cold-callers BT has opened a free nuisance call screening service, which it estimates could junk 15 million cold calls - such as PPI and accident claims - to a voicemail box. The Call Protect service will use what it described as "huge computing power" to analyse large amounts of live data, said BT. The Register has asked for specifics on …
*ring ring* - *ring ring*
Me: "Hello?"
Caller: "Hi my name is (whatever) and I'm calling from (insert claims company) and we've been handed your details by the National Database of Car Accidents. Could I confirm that this is (my name)?"
Me: "Well yes, that's me."
Caller: "Very good, and it's correct that you've been involved in a car accident recently?"
Me: "Well you're going to have to be more specific, I've been in a lot of accidents"
*blip* - Caller hangs up.
If I have the time and inclination, I'll just sit and talk nonsense to them for ages, wasting their time, preventing them making any money...
The challenge is to come up with more and more outlandish injuries until you get to the point where they don't believe you any more.
We used to have a league table at work with the amount of time people had kept them strung along for before they hung up on you, that was fun :-)
Amongst my canned Spam call answers.
Accident Claims "Was it my minor accident or my fatal one ?"
Windows support "Will this make my pirate copy legal ?"
PPI claims (Still working on this one) "Sorry I live in the barter economy I don't use money, Would you like some organic compost ?"
Utilities (Gas Leccy Phone) on business line "We are in a serviced office no utilities."
Can we Talk to the Business Owner "We don't have one we are a co-operative"
I you have the time a well prepared reply script can be great fun' Tis the duty of able bodied people to waste as much of these parasites time as possible.
I know a place in America that plays Country and Western. That really IS torture.
After you hear the 3rd song about the dog dying and the wife running off with another guy you HAVE to drop the call or you lose the will to live
But if you play those C&W songs backwards, you get your trailer back, you get your wife back, and you get your dog back.
"then add their caller ID to my blacklist"
The problem with THAT is that whilst they're rotating through callerIDs that are mostly invalid anyway, sometimes they belong to real companies.
I've made a point of doing verification callbacks to the CID numbers and one of them was a dental surgery in Manchester. The receptionists were wondering why they'd had a spate of abusive calls (Personally I'd call that harrassment by incitement)
The problem with THAT is that whilst they're rotating through callerIDs that are mostly invalid anyway, sometimes they belong to real companies.
Mmm.
The issue there is that the Telco's are breaking the rules and being allowed to. Basically on a PABX you can arbitrarily set any Caller ID, but that caller ID has to belong to you, and be from that Telco's network. The Telco knows who you are because they have the accounting information.
The ultimate solution to this is to say to the telephone companies that are allowing companies to fraudulently provide caller ID that their access to the telephone network is being cut off in 30 days if they don't present their plan to comply with the rules.
" The Telco knows who you are because they have the accounting information."
Unlike the 90s when telcos had an entire department dedicated to maintaining interconnect agreements with every other telco, most calls are funnelled like Internet connections (the routing tables are similiar to BGP too, with zero security precautions against bad actors, which has meant number range hijacking has been a problem long before it IP block hijacking started being detected on the Internet)
That means the calls coming into BT from XYZ interconnect are a bundle coming from dozens of downstream telcos. The question then is whether BT is willing to cut off ABC DEF and GHI entire countries to try and filter the spam.
I found that I could shorten the call by just saying one word - "No" - to every question they ask:
Scammer: "Hello, am I speaking to Mr XXXXX?"
Me: "No".
Scammer: "Oh. Is Mr XXXX available?"
Me: "No"
Scammer: "Who am I speaking to then?"
Me: "No"
Generally they hang up after my 2nd reply, but if not, the grammatical absurdity of my 3rd No is enough for even the hardest-nosed scammer to give up. Annoyingly I can't seem to get it down to a single No (although I did have a lucky one the other day when he just hung up after I said I wasn't who he was expecting.
Please do resist the urge to be rude though, because these people do have your phone number, and they can make your life difficult if they really want to. A female friend of mine swore at one of the "Windows Support" crowd, only to have him ring back twice and subject her to verbal abuse of a sexual nature.
My response does depend on my mood, but the "Window Support" Spam/Scam usually gets either, "Sorry, I don't have a computer." (which does seem to throw them) or "F-Off you lying peice of *beep* *beep* *beep*".
Only once did they call right back. I just picked up the phone and then hung up on them. They got the message after two or three tries.
Off topic, but ...
I was in Curry's one day with the family. Forgive us, I think we must have been bored ...
Sales dweep: "Are you allright, Sir?"
Me: "Meeep".
<< Repeat several times>>
Confused sales dweep "Something else equally crass"
Me "Meeep".
.... etc.....
Took him far too long to not work out if I was eversoslightlystrange, bored or taking the piss ...
Begun to think I should have brought a cattle prod ... Eventually he wondered off looking confused.
A few minutes later came across him in the car park attempting to "help" some poor mark load his purchase into his car ... and caught his eye.
Me (sweetly): "Meeep". His face - nearly pissed myself.
On topic ...
<< Voice from somewhere on the sub continent >>
"Hello, is that Mr Zondek?
"Oh - no, I'm sorry, he went mad, you know, we had to shoot him."
>> slight stunned pause - obviously not had that one before - get in quick before he comes to <<
"Yes, it was VERY sad. Made a TERRIBLE mess on the bathroom walls, <slight pause> But we've washed it all down now so that's ok. Sorry I can't help you. Bye. <Click>
OR ....
<< Female voice from somewhere on the sub continent >>
After several seconds ....
Me: "Excuse me, before we go any further, can you do something for me?"
Scammer: "Er ..."
Me: " Will you run upstairs for me and stick your bum out of an upstairs window? .... And then run downstairs and throw rocks at it?
Pause while she works that one out ... and strange sounds of disquiet start to come down the line ...
>Click>
"A female friend of mine swore at one of the "Windows Support" crowd, only to have him ring back twice and subject her to verbal abuse of a sexual nature."
The thing about them doing that that is that it crosses the line from illegal to flatout criminal and if she'd bothered making a police complaint the phone company would have had to pull call accounting records (not just callerID records)
If that happens enough times then the telcos might start taking some action.
Scammer: "Hello, am I speaking to Mr XXXXX?"
Me: "No".
Scammer: "Oh. Is Mr XXXX available?"
Me: "No"
When our phone still had my grandmother's name on it, it was fun to torment the callers who would use that name.
Salesdroid: "Mr Oliver?"
Me: "He died in 1965"
Salesdroid: "B.A. Oliver?"
Me: "yes, my grandmother"
Salesdroid: "Is she there?"
Me: "she died in 1982"
Salesdroid: "um.... <mumbles> sorry" (and then they'd give up)
I had enough time to string them along a few months back and ended the call fairly sure that the insurance scammers have some form of access into the DVLA.
Specifically, I gave them the registration of a car I used to own (scrapped) but with wrong colour and engine. They immediately asked whether I'd gotten the colour wrong and coached about the right colour, then did the same about engine size.
The part that gobsmacks me is that both the DVLA and the ICO seem completely uninterested in this aspect.
"Specifically, I gave them the registration of a car I used to own (scrapped) but with wrong colour and engine. They immediately asked whether I'd gotten the colour wrong and coached about the right colour, then did the same about engine size."
Not hard to find either of those things. If you know the make and registration, the gov lets you know this. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ (you don't need V5C)
If all you've got is the registration number, any car parts website (Halfords etc) will tell you make and model which you then stick into the checker above.
"Not hard to find either of those things. If you know the make and registration, the gov lets you know this. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ "
I know that, but
1: The results took far longer than these guys took.
2: If all queries are being logged (and they should be), you just located the IP address of the spammers.
Anyway, being a _scrapped_ vehicle, it doesn't show on the public query system and website lookups like Halfrauds (and others) don't bring back colours.
"Anyway, being a _scrapped_ vehicle, it doesn't show on the public query system and website lookups like Halfrauds (and others) don't bring back colours."
We Buy Any Car brings back everything, even for scrapped cars (or knows about a car I've had scrapped anyway). Takes less than a second from you giving me your registration number to me knowing everything I need to know about the car. In the time it take you to tell them your engine size, they've already looked it up.
If they wanted to put some effort into it, it wouldn't be hard to build a front-end for the call-agent and screen scrape a bunch of these sites.
Better approach: broken "english" accent, call centre background noise - put the phone down. That's saved me hours of my time. My professional hourly rate is £lots, their's is statutory minimum if UK based, a couple of pence in an indian call centre. So who's the mug for wasting time with them?
I prefer to wind them up, especially the ones pretending to be "tech support" or pretending to be from my bank.
Hey, they're trying to commit fraud by deception, so why should I care if my unique style of "professional unpleasantness" leaves them upset and annoyed ? They're criminals and they deserve an ulcer or two.
Call from withheld, unavailable or international number comes in.
10s.
Answering machine pickes it up.
"Hello, thank you for calling. So that we can deal with your call efficiently please select from the following menu:
If you're a claims management company press 1;
If you're a boiler room press 2;
If you're a bogus Microsoft engineer press 3;
etc."
For some reason they don't seem to want to play ball. Can't think why.
I go for this approach:
Spamer - "Spam spam spammity spam"
Me - "Just a moment, I just need to grab a pen and paper so I can write down this amazing offer!"
* leave phone by TV or radio, and come back in a few minutes to see if they're there, if they are
Me - "sorry mate, still looking for that pen, just hold on a sec ok?"
and repeat.
Most of them give up after five minutes, lightweights!
(Mind you, I don't have a landline, and almost never get spam on my mobile)
"Most of them give up after five minutes, lightweights!"
I just leave the phone for a good while & then hang up; usually they've done that themselves. But I did have a very persistent/dumb company (double glazing, of course) where the sales manager rung back to say the line went dead.
I never identify myself because your data is more valuable to them just by confirming your number is still associated with that name. If I get one like that I say "Never heard of him" and put the phone down. If they address me by name I ask "Who are you? Have you got a wrong number?"
Don't give the bastards anything, at least until there's a button that sends a remote electric shock down the phone.
Typical spam call I DO NOT GET.
Hint: I retired BT service in favour of first sipgate, later teleappliant in 2007. My "fixed" lines are actually terminated on an asterisk PBX.
I never had a cold call ever since 2007. I used to have some anti-spam rules on the Asterisk, but dropped them as they were not getting hit at all for years.
The reason you get scam calls is because BT directly sold them your data.
So all this means that now the cold callers will be paying an extra premium in order to get to you direct to BT. Sweet revenue, here it comes.
True in the US as well. Not sure why you were downvoted.
Signed up for Verizon landline/DSL at a different location for temporary project. Telemarketers start calling as soon as I plug it in. Verizon rep says the number is being gotten from the directory, that they don't sell numbers. I point out that the calls came before the account was even billed, much less published. I had looked myself up on Verizon's own online white pages and I wasn't there yet.
Filed a complaint with that state and FCC, Verizon suddenly calling me to apologise. Telemarketing calls stop.
First step: remove fox from henhouse.
"And presumably if it's redirecting to voicemail, BT are still getting their coin for connecting the call through, so they still get some revenue anyway."
The "huge computing power" is actually just enough storage to ensure BT can record the calls and claim the spammer revenue.
While it doesn't require "huge computing power" at present, once they start selling the automated spamming services to allow both the call and receiver to be connected to the same system and cut out the inefficient third-party systems, the requirement to automatically provide spammers with numbers that then divert to the spam mailboxes will drive requirements through the roof...
Actually BT & GCHQ have had this facility since the turn of the millennium, you just needed to know who to ask!
As its becoming more of an issue now affecting many people, its now being made available, but its got limited application when calls come from abroad and the number is withheld especially when considering how easy it is to get a VOIP number hooked up with VPN to some remote server in the back of beyond.
TalkTalk have something similar introduced some months after it was announced they were hacked in Nov 2015 but if a rogue calls does get through you have a number to call which bans the last incoming number, thing is I can never remember what that number is not that it works when its a withheld number from abroad anyway.
Managed to wind one of them up today though, had an Indian/Pakistani sounding chappy on the phone, couldn't remember what ISP he was calling from, so dragged call out, managed to get his supervisor on the line, who couldn't pronounce the word "voice" properly, but sounded deliberately Russian like Anton Yelchin when he appeared in Star Trek, thing is there was also a South African accent as well sneaking out as well.
Anyway how do I get rival companies on the ban list or get my mates number banned so he cant phone his gf?
"Odd, how its taken them so long, something to do with call revenue from UK based spammers?"
Actually, this feature of dialing a four digit code to block a specific number from calling your landline was available in NEC's NEAX61 series digital exchanges when I started working on them over 30 years ago - we even tested it to make sure it worked as described - but for some reason it was never sold where I live. I really doubt that NEC were the only vendor to include this feature.
There's little that's new or innovative about this type of service.
"There's little that's new or innovative about this type of service."
Yes, there is. If a number is blocked or banned, no one gets any revenue. If the call is diverted to a blackhole voicemail system BT get the revenue. If the caller is on the BT network, BT get it all. If not, then BT get the termination fee. There's a cash incentive to complete the calls. There's no cash incentive to block them.
Hmmm, I applaud the effort but what could possibly go wrong with broad filtering ?
We've all had those really important emails that seem to somehow end up in the spam folder, I was expecting a phone call three days ago............
I suppose it does have it's upside, now if I can manage to get my boss on the spam filter and blame it on BT :)
I've had some sub-continent based calls that appear on caller display to be from my area code. So, scenario : local number comes up on caller display, you answer it, it's an unwanted call. 1571, add it to the block list. However, the number was your doctor, dentist, work etc. You've blocked someone who might be important without realizing it.
"You've blocked someone who might be important without realizing it."
The vast majority of my cold calls are landline "international", "withheld", or an apparently random set of digits.
I once tried the "United dogs' home" response on an international caller - which confused an old friend who had decided to ring me direct rather than use Skype.
Unfortunately my doctor's practice uses "withheld" - as do local council departments.
If the landline cold call doesn't terminate itself with a dialling tone - then I usually put the phone to one side for half an hour or so. It is presumed that ties up one line to stop other people being called.
"The vast majority of my cold calls are landline "international", "withheld", or an apparently random set of digits."
Don't confuse the calling number information you get to see and the calling number information that the terminating exchange has - your local exchange can (and probably will) request the entire calling number, even from overseas - calling line identification is blocked by the terminating exchange if it is told to for a specific call, not the one the call is originated from, which is why emergency services (and maybe your local pizza place) still get your phone number. Even though you think you have it blocked, and may even be paying for that feature, any terminating line can have a bit set to ignore the calling line number blocking request.
"Unfortunately my doctor's practice uses "withheld" - as do local council departments."
My doctor does too - and when they get the canned message that withheld numbers are not accepted they dial back with proper ID.
The ICO need to make a determination that businesses are NOT allowed to withhold caller ID (not just call centres) - and it needs to be the ICO, not OFCOM.
I normally screen callers through my answering machine prior to picking up, but will give this a go instead. It will be interesting to see if those spoofed call numbers will still be blocked.
The latest scam call almost got me. Someone phoned claiming to be a BT engineer and there was a problem with my broadband speed. He wanted me to plug my router directly into the master socket. The call seemed legit in as much as he spoke English without a foreign accent and he wasn't asking for any financial details etc. However, something didn't feel right about the call so I hung up and did a 1471 and the number came back as a legitimate BT customer service number (after looking the number up on Google). Anyway, I phoned BT and after being passed around their Indian call centre was told that they had not contacted me and that the call had been made by someone pretending to be from BT! I don't know how the scam call would have unfolded, I can only speculate that he may have eventually tried to get me to download something (malicious) to my computer so he could analyse the "problem". Anyone else had this type of dodgy call and know what they are up to?
@ Dan 55, that is quite possible. At one address we moved to I contacted BT and asked them to transfer our number to the new address, but they said our new address wasn't on their system so didn't have a phone line. I pointed out the fact it had a modern-style BT master socket on the wall and I could see the wires going out of the wall and connecting to the telegraph pole on the street. No, the property didn't exist, was it a new build? No, it's around 100 years old. Sigh.
A friend of mine went one better than that. He moved into a property that the local water authority insisted did not exist.
He got free water for five years. The fun ended when the water board replaced the main outside and the lads doing the job spotted that there was one more connection to it than their plans admitted to. They did attempt to bill him for the arrears, but he countered with a copy of the letter they'd sent to him, at his address[1], saying that the address didn't exist so they couldn't and wouldn't bill him.
[1] Warning: Upcoming paradox. Engage head explosion dampers before reading further.
"A friend of mine went one better than that. He moved into a property that the local water authority insisted did not exist."
I've got a similar one. Back in the 80s a friend of mine moved into a house where the gas had been disconnected long ago, but the meter was still there - unplugged and sitting on the floor of the garage.
After a few months she suddenly got a letter from British Gas asking to read the meter. She first ignored it. Then she got a more serious red-bordered one saying she would be disconnected if they didn't read the meter. After phoning them up to point out she wasn't connected to gas anyway, she got a third letter.
So she physically took the meter down to the Gas Board shop (remember them, kids?), plonked it down on the counter and said something along the lines of "There. You read it." causing no end of panic as they thought she'd physically disconnected the meter herself.
Reminds me of the time I moved into a rented house about 12 years ago (no longer there), and I needed a phone line (on call, needed dial-up from home and this was before the company had VPN over broadband available).
The house had an existing line installed, with a master socket (an old one, no removable faceplate, but still a BT431A socket).
The line was dead, and the landlord wasn't interested in getting it hooked up for me, but said that I could do what I wanted with it myself.
So I called BT on my mobile, to get the line reconnected, to be told the house doesn't have an existing line! (The house also wasn't a new build, about 100 years old).
Me "But it does, I can see it!", BT: "nope, doesn't have one now, and its never had one in the past.", Me: "But I can see the socket". BT "Nope".
So I gave in and went through the process of getting a new line.
Turned out, they had a special offer on at the time, which meant no installation cost for new installations. A re-connection at the time was normally something like half the price of a new install.
The BT engineer turned up, started putting in a newline from the cabinet end, before coming to the house, only turned up once the new line was outside the house. At which point he noticed the old line going through the wall by the front door, and once let in the house, could see the existing master socket on the other side of the hole (no cabling inside the house)!
"Hmm, that's odd, oh well", and duly ripped out the old copper wire and socket, few in the new wire through the pre-existing hole, and fitted a new master socket.
So their poor records basically saved me some money, cost them some, and got me a nice shinny new line and socket!
"the gas had been disconnected long ago, but the meter was still there"
Did I ever post the one about the time my Dad helped a friend with some renovations? In the course of that they moved the meter but reconnected it the wrong way round. Gas meters will run backwards. After they discovered it there was a slight panic. The friend's family used as much gas as possible to try to get the meter at least back to the previous reading and a little beyond. They succeeded but the meter reader commented on how little gas they'd used.
"Gas meters will run backwards. After they discovered it there was a slight panic."
Perhaps this was intentional. You know those schemes where people supply electricity from their own generators back to the electrical grid?
Maybe they figured out that people might like to do this with gas as well and have the meter run backwards for every cubic foot they donated.
Finally there'd be an upside to chronic flatulence.
"the water board replaced the main outside and the lads doing the job spotted that there was one more connection to it than their plans admitted to."
We had problems on our electricity a few years ago. When the crew turned up to investigate the dodgy connection they found it wasn't connected to the supply at the bottom of a different pole than was shown on the plans. Both problems solved by replacing the corroded joint with a new one where it was shown on the plans.
Then the gas dug a hole just down the road to disconnect a pipe which they'd discovered (I'm not sure how) ran under someone's conservatory. They then discovered that (a) there were two lots of gas pipes just under the road surface where they only expected one, (b) one of them was flooded with water, (c) the pipes were steel & the working pipe had to be replaced and (d) the pipe running under the conservatory which they were about to disconnect wasn't a branch, it was actually the feed into the mains under our road.
A year or so later whilst I was working in the garden someone came wandering up the road asking questions about the gas supply. His company had taken over the maintenance but didn't have current drawings. Fortunately he probably know more about the system as he used to work on the system years ago.
I contacted BT and asked them to transfer our number to the new address
Had sort of the opposite of that once when we moved house. The person buying our house contacted BT about a fortnight before the moving date to arrange to take over the line, and within a few hours of that phone call, we were cut off, just when we needed the phone the most. It wasn't that they just changed the number - could have been seen as a simple scheduling error - they actually cut us off.
No amount of ranting and raging to BT would get them to reinstate us, so we spent a fortnight calling people on our mobiles, and making sure they had the mobile numbers as first (and only) point of contact. We were offered one month rental for free as compensation and a complaint to the ombudsman resulted in (effectively) a "meh, take it or leave it".
Three days after the phone line was cut off, our ADSL service terminated too because (according to our ISP) they couldn't provide a service on a disconnected phone line. Email was via our ISP in those days, so no email for a fortnight either.
New house, new phone provider, new ISP. A fortnight of lost emails, and an extra line to add to our "we've moved" cards.
M.
Considering the quality of internal communications in BT, I could still believe that they actually had tried to call you.
But it doesn't sound like something BT would do - actually monitoring your line speeds and calling you to troubleshoot if they fall off. They'll only trigger something if someone complains.
to be honest, I would NOT be surprised if the first call had been legit, and the BT call centre told you porkies, just to tell you something. With such a huge organization, I would be suprised if they were actually bothered to check at customer service what was really going on.
When I was a BT customer I used to insist on asking my own security question first. Knowing that the agent, genuine or not, never has access to my call records I always asked what was the last number I dialled. Their explanations as to why they couldn't answer my question were great fun. Then I just told them that if they couldn't prove who they were I wouldn't talk to them and hung up.
I've always just let the machine screen the calls. It has the added benefit of recording actually useful messages. I'm all for BT blocking spam calls but I'm not sure about this unique technological breakthrough stuff, can't they just employ a guy to go through whocallsme and block the numbers people flag up as spam? I know their aim is to stop even the first call getting through and also to stop spammers hiding their number or number hopping I just don't have any faith they can do this.
Same here, and then answer the phone if they start leaving a message and we know (or are at least wish to talk to them). Calls dropped a lot of time, even the 'international' ones.
Now if only it was as easy with spam texts on the mobile...where the text "STOP" to opt-out gives a warning that this might cost you charges - wtf!?
"I'm terribly sorry old chap, but I'm afraid I don't speak a word of English. Good day to you!"
I've used this one myself a fair few times, though rather than hanging up at the end, I like to switch to perfectly accented German, ask them to repeat, and on the rare chance that they can do so be ready to follow up with 'entschuldigung, ich spreche kein Deutsch; parle vous le francais?'
This is bound to be left over (redundant) computing power from GCHQ Monitoring, now security services are targeting encrypted messaging / other call/messaging forms.
And BT wrap it up as "doing good" for their customers, when for years they have ignored the problem, due to UK call revenue from such spamming activity.
If there's one thing worse than someone who complains when things go wrong and then when they go right, its someone who complains about people who complain about people who complain about... Erm, no hang on, ...complains about...
Am I complaining about myself?
After having had enough of the accident texts, I filled a few of the web forms in.
John Doe, Michael Rodent and Roland Rodent all had accidents well over a year ago (if not 2 years). One of them broke every bone in their body, and then some.
Yet it seems it's still worth their while to claim compo on them, if the calls they receive are to be believed,
Sometimes, a "just check that name you asked for again" produces a hangup. But rarely. Usually they just carry on with the script, after a few seconds of confusion :-)
There is only one problem with phone numbers getting added to an blacklist - what if a legitimate company acquires a new number and it is on a blacklist, and it prevents said company from phoning other companies from placing orders and the such? (all legitimate company business, not cold-calling or trying to sell you some stuff you don't want...)
The same thing happens with IP address allocations which have been previously been provided to spammers / scammers and then blacklisted to hell and back. What happens is that the company getting the blacklisted number complains to the provider and either gets another set of hopefully clean ones, or they learn they need to pay more and go somewhere more reputable. Meanwhile the provider learns the lesson that having scammers / spammers as customers isn't such great idea after all, both financially and in terms of reputation.
Been there, done that. My company got an IP address allocated which was already blacklisted. We have been trying to send an e-mail to the helpdesk address listed in the contract only to be rejected by the ISP's mail server. Any attempts to ask to talk to the technical support over the phone proved futile as the call centre operators will direct us to the e-mail address. After enormous number of calls an "engineer" was sent over to investigate, only to prove to his satisfaction that "ping" works, and to leave.
Guess why we have sent a termination notice, and refused to pay any bills for service not being provided.
"My company got an IP address allocated which was already blacklisted. We have been trying to send an e-mail to the helpdesk address listed in the contract only to be rejected by the ISP's mail server. "
Name and shame please. Some of us would prefer not to do business with ISPs who support spammers.
There is only one problem with phone numbers getting added to an blacklist
Yes, if they were using a blacklist. I don't get the impression that it's blacklist based at all - maybe they monitor trunks for high volumes of outgoing calls with a certain percentage of very short ones where the recipients tell them to go to hell (or when it involves robocalling).
That would indeed be hard to beat via Jo Telco, so I suspect the problem's origin will merely move to a telco abroad or a VoIP supplier with UK numbers instead, which then get randomised. Blacklists don't work because they seem to change called IDs at will.
> Presumably only a UK phone can generate a CLI number itself? BT should not allow a CLI to be different from its allocated number unless pre-registered.
On the first part, you can configure asterisk servers and the like to do it, I'm told, and with VoIP it's almost trivial.
In the UK, Ofcom publish rules much like you surmise on how to use CLI, but it is possible to work around them by using an out of country service as it then becomes an issue for how trusted is the relationship between the two organisations. But there are legitimate usages of an out of country service spoofing an in country phone number - e.g. off-shored call centres regularly do this.
I'm sure more can be done with this network-to-network authentication of CLI information, and I wouldn't be surprised if standards have been written on the topic - but I'm not in that field...
I'm sure more can be done with this network-to-network authentication of CLI information, and I wouldn't be surprised if standards have been written on the topic - but I'm not in that field...
I understand that there is sufficient information within the data packets to verify that the billing data isn't getting spoofed, but have no idea how feasible it would be to cross-check that with the CLI data.
The best way to dump a LARGE percentage of these calls would be to drop impossible CLIs. Most of the people spoofing CLIs don't seem to know what they're doing, we repeatedly get calls from 001604 (yes just 6 digits) or a number beginning 1, in US format (1-xxx-yyy-zzzz) which are impossible numbers. But BT terminates them just fine. Looking forward to this new (dis)service.
Still have and need a landline for several reasons: elderly mother who can't work a mobile reliably, broadband is needed anyway, and it's good for finding my lost phone and making free calls to 01/02/03
" it then becomes an issue for how trusted is the relationship between the two organisations."
The answer is that in the world of telephony, once past the border (ie, enduser lines), ALL connections are trusted. Apparently there's no concept that a telco might be a fraudulent front company, despite this happening repeatedly for the last 30 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_fraud#Fraud_by_phone_companies_against_one_another
"Presumably only a UK phone can generate a CLI number itself? BT should not allow a CLI to be different from its allocated number unless pre-registered."
A phone (handset etc) doesn't know its own directory number. It's connected to a line card at the exchange or local concentrator which has an equipment number. The software on the switch translates between equipment number and directory number. So presumably to spoof a CLI you'd need to access the switch e.g. by using a particular command sequence, but I'm not a BT technician.
I've not bothered with a fixed phone for 15 years - the line is for broadband only. On the odd occasion I've accidentally left a handset plugged in (in the days before free 0800 calls on my mobile) I've been rudely reminded how the other half lives with calls selling me conservatories and the like; eugh.
Truecaller on the mobile has pretty effectively dealt with mobile spam and the parents were trained early on that I'd call them back if they phoned me (to avoid big bills). It's worth a shot - honestly, try it.
Well, yes but there are other benefits to having and using a mobile. As well as services that are (now) available via data over wifi connections (15 years ago I texted a lot and bundles were a lot more pricey then), I can also use my number abroad at no extra cost (3's Feel At Home deal is amazing for regular travellers) and it's not a major leap to assume that most users of a web site like this are interested in tech, surely? Fixed lines are not exactly the future.
> I've been rudely reminded how the other half lives with calls selling me conservatories
In the days when I had a land-line I spent quite a number of happy minutes showing mild interest in buying a conservatory to a pushy salesman thereof who had cold-called. I was (apparently) just about to purchase their finest and most expensive model when I told the salesman that there might be a minor difficulty with the installation - I lived on the third floor of a block of flats...
Similar - this was a double glazing salesman that would fit windows for free (or low cost) so that the property could be used as a showcase.
"This is an industrial unit, only have two windows and one of them is for the loo. Will that be a problem?"
He hung up on me - how rude!
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Digital minister Matt Hancock described nuisance callers as "a terrible blight on society" and welcomed the service.
He said: "We’ve forced companies to display their numbers when they call you, "
Well that's not going to work when an overseas call centre uses a fake number. And doesn't BT still charge £1.75 a month for providing the caller ID service? Of course if the caller withholds their number you can use BT's Anonymous Call Rejection service that won't let numberless call through. That'll cost you £5.80 a month.
They currently charge for their 'Choose to Refuse' number-blocking add-on, (or include it free in the premium line rental - IIRC it's about £4 as an extra and only holds 10 numbers). I'll bet that they won't be calling customers of that service to tell them that they can save a few quid...
The answer to this (BT) scam is simple.
A memorable 3 digit number to dial after a spam call.
If that number is reported more that, say, 10 times in an 1/2 hour, 15 times in 1 hour, 25 times in a day ... BT HAVE to block it, investigate, inform OFCON, OFCON HAVE to prosecute, etc.
If the number's from abroad, Johnny Furriner has to do the same to OFCON's satisfaction, or the whole nation goes onto manual intercept with no exceptions until they do.
Decent minimum penalties - is public hanging, drawing and quartering too lenient? - discuss.
A _N_ D - just to make it fair - every certified spam call attracts a £20 compensation payment from the telco, which they are obliged as part of their obligations to recover with costs from the spamming company and / or its directors.
Re: Caller ID
You can get for free but you have to make at least two calls through BT per month. Look in the phone book under "Privacy".
I use a prefix when dialling for cheap calls but made a point of making those two BT calls a month. (shows how much I hate BT!)
Then Caller ID stopped working but I got charged for a whole year before it was fixed. Any chance of a refund? Nope :(
"Well that's not going to work when an overseas call centre uses a fake number."
Requiring Indian TelCo calls to be whitelisted would be an excellent start. Or even announcing that they'll be doing that in a few months might prompt some of them to get their houses in order.
"Of course if the caller withholds their number you can use BT's Anonymous Call Rejection service that won't let numberless call through."
It would also block any calls from organisations without DDI - our GP for starters.
Blocking Number Withheld calls is going to bugger up the NHS even more than it is now.
A good number of NHS Trusts block their number from all outgoing calls. All in the name of Security.
This whole number ID thing is a total pile of dog excement.
If there was a regulator who actually cared, this could be sorted out. And there goes that squadron of flying pigs....
"[...] Rejection service that won't let numberless call through"
Presumably that might also block my doctor's and local council offices' "withheld" - and my international friends who don't use Skype?
Can overseas callers provide a number CLI? I thought part of the problem was that BT can only show "international" .
Can overseas callers provide a number CLI? I thought part of the problem was that BT can only show "international" .
I can see incoming international numbers displayed on a phone in Europe, so that's probably a lack of willpower on BT's part.
On the face of it, this seems a good idea, but there will also have to be a procedure for unblocking a phone number that makes it back from a personal list to the central one. This means that there'll be some sort of appeals process, with maybe a timescale before the block is in place on the central list.
BT no longer have a block of numbers for Residential customers and a different block for Business customers (IIRC this ceased to be the case some time around 2011, apparently due to telecoms deregulation). When I last moved house, the number that was allocated formerly belonged to a tyre fitters - for a year I would get calls from HMRC, debt recovery companies, car leasing firms and various others chasing the former owners. Clearly they were not a very reputable company (towards the end, at least) and one might imagine that they could have been added to personal blacklists by some customers.
In the new 1571 blacklist, I'd hope that the processes around reallocating a dormant/abandoned number would also trigger a reset of any existing blocks on that number, especially given the rate at which scammers use almost disposable mobile numbers and suchlike these days.
I get a bit fed up of BT's approach to calling line identification. Lots of scam calls come through with obviously weird CLI (e.g ok area code but 5-digit phone no), and a few judiciously crafted regular expressions should filter most of them. What's worse is that BT don't seem to be able to forward incoming international CLI with any consistency. A US friend has a mobile on Sprint, I think, but when she came over here her calls were marked 'Unavailable' so they went straight to our answering machine:( Her calls to our mobiles (Vodafone) had correct CLI.
I agree - the routing system cannot seriously connect the caller number 000000000000 to my number can it? Similarly the five digit numbers mentioned. If these are spoofed numbers, at what point are these numbers injected into the exchange systems as this is a significant part of the problem? However, if it can recognise invalid numbers, why doesn't the system automatically block them?
Will the 1572 service be made available free to all providers as an exchange service or is it a BT tool?
"If these are spoofed numbers, at what point are these numbers injected into the exchange systems as this is a significant part of the problem?"
If I understand the system correctly, the CLI you get at your phone is the equivilent of an email "To:" header, ie it's purely for display purposes. The routing info is more like the "Envelope-To:" header which you don't always get to see (depending on your mail server)
You do realise that some people do genuinely have 5 digit phone numbers?
Utter pain though when someone has a fiddle in the system somewhere and incoming calls (eg international) don't come through if an extra random digit isn't tacked on the end. Took a couple of weeks to get sorted.
In other parts of the EU I've known people who had area code plus 3 digits.
One thing that should be a giveaway is the calls where they spoof the number they're connecting to as being the source as it's an obvious impossibility.
You do realise that some people do genuinely have 5 digit phone numbers?
How many area code areas still have 5-digit numbering schemes? Northern Ireland used to be a bit strange but have they now not regularised that? In any case, all the calls like that I had up until recently were scammers (PPI mostly). I did let them go to the machine but the bastards just play their recording into the machine, unlike most other scammers who just ring off when they get the machine. Now I have to answer the call & then ring off:(
If BT can stop these then all power to their elbow but I still WANT THEM TO SORT OUT CLI!
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They can add a number simply by dialling 1572 after receiving the call
OK, something the victim can do to register with them, as opposed to some third-party. This is progress.
What we really need is a version of that that applies some kind of penalty on any caller who collects more than a handful of 1572s. Say, £1 per spam call, collected by BT/phoneco as in normal billing and going to Good Causes (in the manner of a Lottery).
"Say, £1 per spam call, collected by BT/phoneco as in normal billing and going to Good Causes (in the manner of a Lottery)."
Or credited to the callee's account as a fee for handling the call. But not a flat rate but, say, a pound per minute so there's more to be gained by keeping them on the line.
You're missing the point, the whole reason this has taken so long "is" because of the BT revenue issue from spammers, who else makes actual calls today (or can afford to on a BT line)?.
BT had the tech to do this at BT Oswestry, its just GCHQ don't need it anymore.
BT were(are) making serious money from the spam calls. The way BT have implemented this, BT still get the revenue from spammers, even when they fail to connect the call, routing it to voice mail (i.e. setup fee at least). Does the spammer get notified his calls are being made in vain? Doubt it.
It's hardly honest behaviour by BT either. Spam Calls convert illegimate gains (Spammers-their costs) into legimate gains (revenue) for BT, by BT just staying on the side of 'corporate legal'. It's a sort of money laundering.
If BT had been fined for carrying/connecting each of those calls in the first place, this would have been stopped years ago.
We also have a Privacy situation now, where mass wire tapping can take place, and BT can always use the 'we thought it was spam'. It's starting to sound like a product thought up by Theresa May.
Bottom Line, if BT know that call is spam, why should they make any revenue from that call at all. It's all a bit of damp squib, because its 15 years too late, no one really uses their landline for calls.
Spam being one, lack of Privacy being the other.
"BT were(are) making serious money from the spam calls. The way BT have implemented this, BT still get the revenue from spammers, even when they fail to connect the call, routing it to voice mail (i.e. setup fee at least). "
Only sometimes.
The vast majority of these outfits are scamming the international routing system and there have been a number of investigations into billing fraud.
1. I always use only my landline for all outgoing calls. Free cost inside ISP charges .
2. Incoming calls only from family as text messages to mobile. All other calls to mobile disregarded.
3. Incoming calls on landline have occasional Spam , All are logged and reported.
3.1 If genuine all callers know to call on my land line.
4. If I feel like it I apply a spurious talk on a spam call up, but I have to be bored by
Answer that no one uses landlines is false. (PS my work also only uses landlines for non company calls, so many thousands per year on landline)
"I am ex-directory and I use TPS. Still get them on the mobile, mind."
One night in our office all the phones in the room were rung by the same Indian cold calling centre a few minutes apart. After answering a few I just ignored them.
The phones were company DDI numbers that were not published as such. It was obvious an automated call set-up was just dialling all possible digit combinations on our town's STD code.
Had one like that here in the States just after we went to VOIP for the company. One could call the area code, the prefix (company wide) and then 4 digits for the extension. At that time we had roughly 6000 phones. The call center left voicemail on just about each phone about "having a virus" and a number to call back. The Helldesk was swamped in the morning.
A few morons actually called the number and worked with the scum right up until they got the "I need your credit card info". The buffoons who called the scum then called the Helldesk because his/her computer was screwed up beyond belief and they needed it fixed "now"....
In some ways, it was a good thing as a certain Indian call center made no money that night.
I love the windows phishing calls. Just lead them on, to the part where they start to tell you how to "fix" your computer. Then they'll start giving instructions.
idiot: ok, let's start by pressing the "Windows key"
me: What's a windows key?
idiot: That little key on the bottom left if your keyboard between the Ctrl and Alt keys.
me: Oh, you mean the tile key, I see, ok pressed it.
idiot: now what do you see?
me: my computer
idiot: and on the screen?
me: it's black with some test, and little flasshing line.
idiot: what does the text say?
me: rasberry@pi:~$ (said as rasberry at pi dotty squiggle money
Wonder why they hang up on me at that point? ;)
I used to try to get them to talk me through getting them a remote connection on an OS/2 virtual machine - version 3, naturally, to keep up the pretence that I bought the computer from Escom the same day I bought my vinyl copy of Nevermind. Ah, good times...
Then I moved. I kinda miss the scammers :)
Made a car insurance claim last year and took car to local London assessor.
Got a call a few days later from Liverpool with a dodgy geezer going on about my lovely motor and they could maybe write it off or do the repair after my sad accident - wtf?
Didn't trust him an inch and had to call insurer to verify who this random geezer was.
I bet the spam filter catches him.
I can't tell you how many spam calls I get.
Literally.
This is 2017 and I have a mobile. My landline doesn't have a phone connected to it, just the router. I'm told I have a phone number, but I couldn't tell you what it is.
I can see there are certain people who need them for one reason or another, but I wonder how many people actually need a landline phone and only actually have one plugged in out of old habit, despite never actually making outbound calls with it.
Same.
I plugged a phone into a socket once, to see what it was doing. I get a BT-automated-voice saying this line isn't active. No idea what the number is and wouldn't activate it unless incredibly desperate.
My broadband is on Virgin. My backup is 4G via my Draytek router (which has an ADSL/VDSL port too, but has never had anything plugged into it).
My mobile phone has a spam blocker and doesn't tend to receive much anyway.
I can't imagine random-dialling is much of a return nowadays because of the above, and anyone who claims to have a business relationship better be able to show me a bit of paper that says that and where I've given my number to them (mostly I just write N/A nowadays).
If I could be bothered, and I was being hassled, I'd set up a Google Voice number or even a VoIP system, such that known numbers are passed on and unknown numbers have to pass a greylisting-like test (e.g. "state your name and I'll pass that on.... Sorry, you're not a registered caller, goodbye!").
But, to be honest, I get such little call spam that it's just not worth the effort.
My parents are still complaining about it though, but I have just told them to get rid of the landline I don't know how many times.
From experience (suburb but fairly inner city one) of a major city: if the power goes out, so does the feed to most of the mobile base stations round here. And either they don't have battery backup or (more likely) it was last checked 36 months after install and left to sulphate ever since. When the power goes out, we can and WILL lose cellular signal. It's a rare event, but the corded landline phone in the hall is a boon when it happens
BT have been raking profit from the scammers for years, so now they can go and (...). A much more compresensive solution, applied las year: bye-bye BT. No more scam calls! PLUS no more charging me a "low usage" fee, no more charging me - for charging me.
And no, I don't get scam calls on my mobile.
"[...] with an Indian call centre to contact me by phone."
I have nearly put the phone down a couple of times on those criteria - but I also apply it to anyone who I don't instantly recognise. There's an oven cleaning company cold caller with a Del sounding voice. Luckily genuine ones say the company name first - or give it in reply to my best receptionist voice "Who's calling please?".
So - is this BT as in "BT the infrastructure supplier", or BT as in "BT the telephony supplier"? In other words, is this going to work even if I nominally get my telephony from (say) Sky, or PlusNet? because if it isn't, then BT needs hitting with a VERY big stick until it gets the message.
It is from BT Retail, well Consumer actually as it is residential only. Don't know whether the Wholesale side is offering it to the parasit<<<<< LLU and WLR companies, so you'd have to check with them. That said OFCOM will probably insist that it is offered out at about 1% of the actual cost to supply and there will still be complaints that there is any cost at all.
Why should a service of one company be provided free of charge to another ? No problem with it being provided to any other company who wants to share in the costs of providing it, of course those other companies could always build and pay for their own service to do this if they wanted to,
I have to keep my cell handset on in order to receive SMS messages from overseas time zones where family and friends still think the Earth is flat and we are all on the same time.
Here in VietNam, with 6 or 7 physically separate networks - not resellers, advertising is rampant. Such advertising is provided either through the celcos or through standalone computers attached to the celco switches.
Some of the worst offenders for sending SMS messages between 00.00H and 06.00H are celcos themselves.
After months of digging I obtained the cell handset numbers of many celco executives as well as installing at our company a SMS Messaging Administration system. Unlike North America, cell handset numbers readily identify the network which originate the calls.
Our SMS system now captures overnight messages, identifies the originating network and simply forwards the unwanted messages to the executives numbers.
Their reactions are invariably quick, and effective, and result in these late night SMS advertisers being suspended.
I think it's great to be called by someone who is pretty much forced to listen to any drivel you decide to spout.
"I'm so glad you called about my accident. The weather's awful here - where are you based?"
After getting the reply, talk without allowing the other person to reply (Adapt for gender) :-
"Oh, I used to visit that place regularly. I'm going this weekend as a matter of fact. It's a bit of a shit-hole, but I suppose someone has to live there. Is that club still operating next to the church? That place is OK. I spend a lot of time there, in the members' only section, if you get my drift. Not quite so much fun since my accident of course, though as you know, my penis escaped reasonably intact. So nice to be speaking to such an obviously gay person as well - not like the old days where we had to keep such things hidden. Are you wearing any underclothes? So restricting, I think. Anyway, it would be much better to talk about my accident in person. Could I drop by and pick you up on Friday? We could go to this club I know ..."
And how do they determine that? Probably most spammers are using some VOIP gateways to route their calls through, and probably have the ability to switch between them quickly. Once the spammers figure out how BT's system operates, they'll quickly work out how to get around it, and BT will always remain a couple steps behind.
I don't see how stopping spam in phone calls is all that much easier than stopping it in email, and we all see evidence in our inboxes that email spam is still very much a thing.
"I don't see how stopping spam in phone calls is all that much easier than stopping it in email, and we all see evidence in our inboxes that email spam is still very much a thing."
The solution in both cases would be to revise the protocols so that the alleged source (From: line in email headers) can be verified by the system before the connection is accepted.
The solution in both cases would be to revise the protocols so that the alleged source (From: line in email headers) can be verified by the system before the connection is accepted.
The envelope sender address already can be verified. And yet a vast number of people refuse to do so...
Vic.
Today I got a call from guy with a thick indian accent so I put the phone down but not he'd had time to claim that he worked for BT (I'm not their customer). How ironic to be getting that call just when BT announce their anti-spam call initiative (I wish them luck with that - but it's BT so they'll need luck).
I did wonder if the scammers might try using the anti-spam call initiative as a way to scam people "This is a call from BT. You'll have heard about our anti scam call initiative. To set you up on the new system I need [passwords, card details...]"
I'm in Ireland but spam calls were one of the reasons I just ditched voice service entirely on my landline. I just went wirh VDSL (up to 100mbit)! "Fibre" without a dial tone.
Voice service was bundled with broadband in the past and i never really used it. I didn't even plug the phone in to wall.
I think the pstn is likely to be as relevant as the fax machine in a very few short years.
I know someone who used to have some 070 numbers back in the day when you could revenue share on them. He'd ask scammers to "call back on my mobile", and give out the 070 number. This they duly called without realising that it was premium rate.
He built this up to a system where he courted the calls and VoIPed them to South Africa where he had kids in townships being paid to keep the callers on the line for as long as possible.
Me? I just run my own mobile network which has never connected a nuisance call to a customers.
"I know someone who used to have some 070 numbers back in the day when you could revenue share on them. He'd ask scammers to "call back on my mobile", and give out the 070 number. This they duly called without realising that it was premium rate."
Whilst revenue sharing is no longer allowed, I still have a 070 and set it to maximum rate (£1.50/min) for this very purpose. The provider asked why I was using it and set the rate so high - they had a good laugh when I explained and said they wished they'd thought of it.
The 070 gets about 10 calls per week and only about 1 call a month isn't scammy.
I used to get a lot more scam and nuisance calls on my landline than I do now. I get far fewer since I put the following message on my answering machine:
"Hello, this number blocks all withheld and unrecognised numbers. To speak to us, please leave a message after the tone and we will either pick up or call you back. Thank you for calling."
If it's an obvious spoofed CLID, International, or if I don't recognise the number I just let it go to the message. Perhaps the scammers and spammers have a "remove number from database" option...
I do think though people need to stop getting so 'rattled' by spam callers. There's a lot of total over-reaction to relatively small volumes of calls.
I know a few people who get absolutely ridiculously annoyed by them. I realise they're annoying and they waste a couple of minutes of your life, but you can always hang-up or tell them to feck off!
In the big scale of things, it's a relatively minor nuscance unless you're getting absolutely bombarded with calls.
I completely stopped using my landline largely because I have no need for it anymore.
It's the same with my office phone, I don't think anyone even rings my desk anymore. Everything goes to my mobile. It's now largely just a slightly retro looking 1980s style paper weight with buttons and lights. Anytime I check the fixed line voicemail at work, it's invariably people trying to sell me conferences I don't want to go to.
I really do think the PSTN is finished other than as an incoming number for businesses.
Other than a few elderly relatives, I just don't ring landlines at all and mobiles are so cheap these days it's no cost saving anyway. In most cases, if I ring someone's landline, it will ring out / go to voicemail as many aren't plugged in anyway. It's definitely a legacy technology.
I'm in Ireland though so maybe there's still more landline usage in the UK and US?
Seriously, you don't have Google Voice? I do, everyone knows my 'phone number (and my email, and my address). No problem; no spam calls, well maybe there are but they disappear without my ever hearing them. Not only that but when someone telephones me a selection of my telephones (mobiles, computers, SIP devices) ring (what selection, I admit, seems to be down to Google), and if I don't answer (which happens if I don't immediately recognize the name) Google sends me an email with a transcript (which can be hilarious) of the message.
I remember after my mother died being in her flat in Lincoln and encountering one of these spam calls. No problem, telephonus disconnectus. I have a perfectly adequate UK number which connects to me via my voip; apparently you Brits think phoning overseas is expensive, so I set up a Tiverton number to get phone calls from various people involved in my father's estate. They never used it though, I don't think anything meaningful is every said on the 'bone so that makes sense.
John Bowler
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