China gives America its underwater drone back – with a warning The Chinese government has handed back to America the US Navy underwater drone it stole last week. The Seaglider submersible was scooped out of the ocean by a Chinese military vessel shadowing the USNS Bowditch in the South China Sea. The drone, one of hundreds of autonomous vehicles the US Navy uses to track currents and …
Kind of like he wept when Obama said he visited 57 states? Misspelling a word is much different than getting the number of states wrong....of course, you left wingers gave him a pass on that. I wonder if Michelle was, for the first time, proud of all 57 states Barry invented in his mind or just the real 50.
"We left-wingers" laughed at Obama when he talked about 57 states, just like we laughed at Bush's cunning linguistics.
But Trump is in a whole different category. Bush was a dimwit, and Obama weak, but both of them were at least genuinely trying to do their jobs. Trump has no intention of trying to do anything but enrich his own dynasty.
America? Stick a fork in it. It's done.
I don't believe anyone involved in this.
I'm sure the US is spying on the Chinese in the region, and this sort of drone is probably involved. The US tells us it's for research, but they have form in the "not being entirely honest" department.
The South China Sea does not belong to China, and their heavily armed artificial islands are at least half the problem here.
They're all bad people and ought to be ashamed.
"The South China Sea does not belong to China"
Well, it did not belong to China in the past. Now they've built & fortified islands there and their navy is sailing around there, and they claim to own it. What's the rest of the world going to do about it? Looks like the rest of the world is going to talk and do nothing substantive, while China takes it over. So for all practical purposes, China will own it in future.
China: the communist government using capitalist methods to fund an aggressive modern military to impose hegemony as legitimated by imperial maps.
The idea of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" rises again not even a 100 years later. Just... this time it is the Chinese giving all and sundry the benefits thereof.
"...as legitimated by imperial maps."
Er, no. There are no imperial maps showing any such thing. Nada. The Chinese "claim" is based on an territory grab that first originated in 1947.
Like most things the Chinese claim about their history, it's based on a lie.
Since you asked for evidence of a negative - not required by law, by the way, can you produce evidence that they owned it?
The start of this was a notional ten-dash-line, predicated on the belief that China can do whatsoever it wants including take over countries just based on their genetics! Singapore, be aware!
This line assumes that some time in the past, some Chinese ship was based here... so if there is proof that some Chinese reached the west Coast of the continent of America, the entire Americas are owned by China.
Hsuen Tsang (Xuanzang) reached India in the seventh century, so along with Pakistan, China may even claim all of India!
That is the level of tall claims!
I wonder if a Chinese reached Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Hawaii etc. Interesting legal claims can emerge,
In 1982, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea established the "12-Mile Limit" as the maximum extent of territorial waters. See here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters
Whilst this ostensibly looks to be like a round of posturing between China and her neighbours - perhaps an attempt to set up some form of enforceable "exclusion zone" around the Chinese mainland, this is almost certainly not the case. It is much more likely that China know or suspect that area of ocean floor to contain some form of mineral wealth which China believes can be extracted, either now or in the short-medium term future.
In considering this it is worth comparing the strategies adopted by both China and the US when it comes to securing access to resources [energy, minerals, food, ec] around the world. Over the last few years China has moved to cement numerous deals across Africa and South America; building partnerships, making purchases - even manipulating markets [such as dumping cheap steel across Europe to kill off the European steel industry] - where it believes it appropriate to do so.
The United States has taken a different approach; it has adopted a two-headed strategy that comprises control of financial markets and on the introduction of wide-reaching trade deals. The trade deals in particular, are deceptively powerful - for example the way that they impose things like acceptance of Software Patents, or giving the right to [US] companies to sue other governments if those entities issue laws that would harm the profits of US corporations.
What is unusual about the events unfolding in the South China Sea is that no proxies are involved; these are moves undertaken directly by the super-powers. Whilst Saudi Arabia and Iran have been fighting proxy wars in the Middle East for decades, it looks as though the US and China have moved on to something a little more direct.
We live in interesting times, in the original sense of the phrase.
The drone in question is an oceanographic drone. It measures the temperature and salinity of the sea at different positions and depths. This is very useful information for the US Navy 's submarines, as it gives them a much better idea of how, and how far sounds will travel through that particular bit of ocean.
So it's not exactly spying, but it is information that's intended for a military purpose.
".....but it is information that's intended for a military purpose." Not just military purposes. The data is also supplied to a number of scientific programs looking at the marine environment, oceanography, and climatology - http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=seaglider - and was developed by scientists, not the "Eeeevvvviiiiiiillll" DARPA or any other military body. Without the support given to the program by the US Navy it wouldn't have happened at all.
"I'm sure the US is spying on the Chinese in the region, and this sort of drone is probably involved."
Erm, spying, not so much. Studying thermoclines and salinity changes, etc, yeah.
All the better to hide submarines.
I can't for the life of me figure out *why* the PRC would mind US submarines near their waters. Why, the Russians loved them north of the Kola Peninsula for all of those decades.
Not just his voter base.
This is the same country that got its knickers in a twist over the use of the word "niggardly".
Too eager to spend 10 minutes typing out a vitriolic rant on racism instead of spending 10 seconds typing the word into google to learn what it actually means.
"Anyone thinking these typos are purely unintentional needs to have their head examined. Trump has to stay "reel"(sic) to his voting base."
That's a bit vague. Either you are insulting 68+ million people, or you are stating that Trump believes that he is insulting them. Which is it?
>I think someone reminded the Chinese that if it goes hot hot, the only things left floating in the Chinese navy would be driftwood!,
And just wait til the cowardly Hun see the gleam of our British steel they run away crying and we'll all be home by Christmas, right? /s
If things got 'hot hot' between the two nuclear powers in question, it wouldn't just be people in Asia having a shit day.
"China has more than a hundred subs..."
Yeah, but the old Han subs don't really count. Any boat that's so loud that the sonar operators require hearing protection doesn't count.
Of course, the newest PRC boats count. Things will get interesting if they get better at making boats than Russia.
You mean the same Gulf Wars tapes that will have zero bearing on a war with China - especially since Iraq had essentially no navy, while the same cannot be said of China? Those tapes?
The US has numerous advantages - advantages that have come at the cost of trillions of dollars - but to think that a shooting war with China will go like the Iraq wars? That's getting deep into the punch bowl of Kool-Aid...
First and most important of differences - unlike Iraq, China *has* WMDs, e.g. nukes, and capability to deliver them. And a reply that includes 'we'll nuke 'em too!' misses the most important point - both sides end up losing, to greater or lesser degree.
".....beating up a schoolboy." Wow, the Yank haters really do have short memories! Before Saddam got so soundly trounced in the Gulf War, the "experts" in the haters club were hysterically claiming Saddam's forces in Kuwait were "too big and too well-armed" for the UN forces to handle without catastrophic loss of American lives, that his Republican Guard were some type of experienced "super soldiers". Iraq did have the largest conventional army and airforce in the region, it's just the haters wanted to transpose "largest" with "capable". They argued it was better to take the path of compromise, to appease the bully. History then showed the US-led UN forces completely annihilating the Iraqi forces in Kuwait, especially the Republican Guard. Hilariously, the same "experts" made similar predictions of gloom and woe for the Invasion of Iraq, only to again see the Iraqi conventional forces trounced again. Of course, after he was defeated so easily, the "unbeatable" Saddam has transmogrified into a "schoolboy" in the eyes of the haters.
It's not like the haters don't have previous in denigrating US capabilities. During the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians attacked unarmed shipping in international waters in the Persian Gulf. The "experts" wailed that any US interference would be a disaster, that the USN could not operate in the Gulf without being destroyed by the large Iranian airforce and navy (including Iranian subs). Operation Preying Mantis then showed the Iranian navy being smashed and the Iranian airforce hiding from sight, and international shipping being given safe passage through the Gulf. I take it the haters will refer to the Ayatollahs as "schoolboys" too after their bluff was called?
The key to the US's ability to beat such bullies was not just a quantative but also a qualitative edge, both in equipment, training and tactics, and the will of other POTUSs to use it. Despite the size of their forces, the Chinese know they cannot match the US in open battle at sea, either above or below the waves, and would be hard pressed to provide support to those distant artificial islands should the US decide to support the other nations in the region in taking those islands. There's also the catastrophic harm such a war would do to the Chinese economy. Obambi should have imposed tough economic sanctions on China the minute they started building those artificial islands, but he waivered and equivocated and tried appeasing China, probably because he listened to too many of those same haters, and China laughed at him. China isn't laughing about Trumpet.
"...if China and America get into a shooting war the entire world is fucked..."
No going to happen - Unpresident Trumps modus operandi is to simply not pay them. If Unpresident Trump follows through on his previous promises then he'll simply not pay them for all the stuff America buys from the Chinese - and then their entire economy is, as you so politely put it "fucked".
Next thing you know they will be begging to be grabbed by the pussy.
I keep seeing this 'well, the US just won't pay back their loans/obligations if such-and-such...'
Yeah, it will screw over the Chinese economy - and take down the US one, too. The US dollar will be about as useful as toilet paper for buying stuff at that point, because it will have ZERO value. No one will loan the US money without attaching insane interest and other unfavorable conditions onto it.
Thinking that defaulting on trillions of dollars will be just peachy-keen is like comparing Iraq and China militarily - it fails to acknowledge that pesky reality thing.
"Something about fighting a land war in Asia?" Firstly, the most likely action wouldn't be a land war in Asia, it would be an US-supported action by local nations to seize (and probably destroy) the artificial islands far from the reach of the massive conventional forces on mainland China. The USN's superior numbers and tech would make such a venture a foregone conclusion. Secondly, the US has not fought an unrestrained "war" in SE Asia since WW2. Even Korea had serious political limitations placed on US forces, and Vietnam saw an US military that could have rolled right through North Vietnam in a week totally hogtied by politics. Thirdly, any unlikely land war would see China actually fighting her neighbours, particularly the Vietnamese. And Russia, with its massive border with China, is still a friend to Vietnam. It is very doubtful that China would ever let it get to a full-blown shooting war in SE Asia, but if it happened it would be the Chinese that would have the most cause to blink first.
"Thirdly, any unlikely land war would see China actually fighting her neighbours, particularly the Vietnamese. And Russia, with its massive border with China, is still a friend to Vietnam"
Really???
So you can count on North Korea to storm into South Korea, so that will tie up those forces, both South Korean and US.
And you REALLY expect Putin to side with Vietnam over China? Really? You are seriously fucking deluded. See how much trade Russia does with China and compare to Vietnam. You are also forgetting both Vietnam and China are communist countries (you do realise the US lost the Veitnam war), and China, again is one of it's biggest trading partners.
Why the fuck would either of these partner with the USA?
"......And you REALLY expect Putin to side with Vietnam over China? Really? You are seriously fucking deluded....." You should try a bit more factual reading, especially regarding the existing island disputes between China and Vietnam (which have involved live fire), plus China's invasion of Vietnam and the resulting split between the Soviet Union and China that was seized on by Nixon, before you go posting any more evidence of your complete lack of historic reading.
You have said this before, you are seriously delusional if you think a poor sandy country with limited resources is the same fight as a nuclear armed superpower.
Gloves off? FFS this is not some playground pushing match this is potential global conflict, nuke em till they glow, shoot them in the dark levels, especially with that attitude. It's easy to be a hawk from your keyboard.
Also a carrier groups not much use without a carrier.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/chinese-submarine-appeared-in-the-middle-of-a-carrier-battle-group.html
Also a carrier groups not much use without a carrier.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/chinese-submarine-appeared-in-the-middle-of-a-carrier-battle-group.html
This not only has a lot to do with how quiet the propellers on the new Chinese subs are but also with a revolutionary new sonar system that makes them much more difficult to hear and locate. Rather than using the characteristic "ping" sound, which is easy to both hear and triangulate, they use a specially designed sound wave that sounds like a "yoink".
I imagine that they used this new system to precisely locate the drone prior to capture. Given the accuracy of the system they were probably able to locate the drone with a single yoink.
I think someone reminded the Chinese that if it goes hot hot, the only things left floating in the Chinese navy would be driftwood!, that and a tape of Gulf Wars 1 & 2 to remind them what happens when the US takes the gloves off.
I think that we should all take this opportunity to think about any and all who have disagreements with the US being utterly annihilated by a crushing barrage of superior fire power while we furiously masturbate.
First quality submarine drones for the aquatic enthusiast. Made in Taiwan from a clever engineering design quite like that used by the US military. Fully autonomous. Lithium rechargable batteries, runs for days. HD webcam standard, optional sensor packages available.
Explore your underwater world without getting cold and wet. Only at finer department stores and online via Amazon.com.
He added that the US Navy had frequently invaded Chinese waters to carry out reconnaissance and military surveys, despite Chinese protests.
So basically, most of the Pacific Ocean is now considered "Chinese waters"? Seems that's what they're saying of late. 50 miles off the Philippines would still be Philippine waters.
It's already common for spy ships of various nations to hang around in the international waters off the coast of other nations. This already happens off the coast of the United States. What you wonder about already happens.
The response is typically what it has been for decades. Both sides know it's happening, they watch each other, they shadow each other's naval exercises. Everyone knows how it works and what the rules are so that everybody feels safe about what the other side is doing without causing any incidents.
Already happens regularly. What does not already happen regularly is stealing each other's bits of kit from international waters.
Because, of course, the US Navy is conducting surveys into ocean currents and salinity. Yes, natural thing for the military to do, is that. Definitely. At this time of shallow budgets and cost-consciousness, naturally they're just putzing around near their biggest foe making sure the sea isn't too salty.
As for trump. Well, it's a phonetic spelling, isn't it? - an easy mistake to make, for sure, but you'd hope he's check this out.
Plus he's far from correct about this kind of thing not happening before. It happens regularly. It's - at most - in the category of the Russians flying strategic bombers into UK airspace for - basically - shits and giggles (as they do constantly).
"Because, of course, the US Navy is conducting surveys into ocean currents and salinity. Yes, natural thing for the military to do, is that. Definitely. At this time of shallow budgets and cost-consciousness, naturally they're just putzing around near their biggest foe making sure the sea isn't too salty."
Well, yes, it is. Naval survey vessels do this sort of thing a lot. It's a pretty common activity. I accuse you of having very little context and basically of having no idea what you're talking about. You've latched on to a simple idea - why would they be doing this - and with zero knowledge spun yourself an empty conclusion.
"naturally they're just putzing around near their biggest foe making sure the sea isn't too salty."
Their biggest foe, The Philippines? You really do have no idea.
It was probably a Quality Control Test follow-up. The Chinese wanted to see if one of their workers gave the Americans electronics from the good stack rather than the reject stack when the Chinese were manufacturing electronics for American military hardware. Witness America's problem with the F-35 while the Chinese clone seems to be doing quite well. American research might also show the effects that artificial islands built on coral islands is having on climate change. The world might quit blaming America for life giving CO2 and hold China responsible for their honest-to-goodness environmental damage. And there would go China's "economic advantage" . Then the manufacture of military clothing might return to America, it's territories or friendly neighbors. Boy, Nixon's policy of exploiting the Sino-Soviet rift was brilliant. Even it did aid the Chinese and Soviets in helping North Vietnam and the VC during the Vietnam War. NOT
In the future, these drones should have some kind of explosive added to them such that if they are illegally stolen again we can simply blow them up. Serves 'em right for stealing it in the first place!
So the "theft" of a single drone is worth causing instant death to military personell, a major international incident and potentially triggering a full-scale nuclear war between the two largest superpowers in the world, at unimaginable human and economic costs to both sides and half the other countries in the world to boot?
I really, really hope you don't wield even the tiniest amount of power in whatever work you do.
In the future, these drones should have some kind of explosive added to them such that if they are illegally stolen again we can simply blow them up. Serves 'em right for stealing it in the first place!
Un manned object floating in international waters. I honestly wonder if laws of salvage and so on could apply here, and what other laws might apply.
"Theft" it most certainly isn't. An act deserving of serious harm or death? Even less so. And what if said drone happens to lose contact with base, drift somewhere, and end up being picked up by a boatload of US teens? Would death/maiming "serve 'em right"?
China can suck it. Taiwan is an independent country, free and clear of the mainland. The day China removes the mass murdering psychotic sociopath Mao from it's currency and public squares is the day they can talk with any sort of authority on international politics again.
If Hitler was on the Mark, you would be saying the same thing.
The reason US warships pass through international shipping channels is to enforce the right of civilian cargo shipping to use these waters without interference. This is for the various peoples of large and small powers to potentially live a more prosperous life. China's actions are meant to enforce that country's control over this shipping. The Chinese are already making a claim on fish and other seafood. Our current leadership is OK with that. Let us see what the next administration does.
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