It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
This new patching model isn't working out too well for the end users, is it? I wonder if the benefits outweigh anything negative, from Microsoft's perspective, whatever those benefits might be?
Is your Windows 10, 8 PC falling off the 'net? Microsoft doesn't care
With more and more Windows 10 users losing internet and network connectivity – thanks to a dodgy software update that broke DHCP – you'd have thought Redmond would be on the ball with a cunning fix. Sadly not: the only official advice is to go away and reboot your PC. “Some customers have reported difficulties connecting to …
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:14 GMT Gert Leboski
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
That would probably work well for home users, with limited devices on their LAN and the privileges to set networking on the machine.
In business environments, there are a lot of devices requiring IP addresses, which DHCP makes manageable without much human intervention. Very often, usually and ideally almost always, end users in business don't have the privileges in Windows to manually set a static IP, so it comes down to IT support to go do it for them. It's a lot of grunt work for small teams and because of the nature of it, being networking, can't be done remotely.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:31 GMT Ole Juul
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
That would probably work well for home users, with limited devices on their LAN and the privileges to set networking on the machine.
Sounds like you thought I meant a static IP rather than a static address for DNS. There is really no reason to have your DNS continually reset. Use the same one all the time regardless of the size of your network. Not changing is what I meant by static.
All the downvotes I got up there are presumably from people not thinking I meant static DNS address. Not sure why anybody would think that though, as it doesn't make sense.
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 14:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
"I'm not sure how setting anything in DNS is going to help a machine get on the network in the first place."
Quite. So for those who keep referring to DNS-related fixes, here's a worked example from a small office I informally support, and which was downgraded from Win7 to Win10 some months ago without my involvement:
Monday: everything performaing as expected for Win10 - Internet OK, wireless print/scanner OK.
Tuesday: no Internet, and also **no local wireless print/scanner**.
The printer/scanner does not require an internet connection.
Using the Win10 network troubleshooter leads nowhere useful, but Control Panel->Devices shows the hardwired NIC (connected to BT HH5 :() as disabled ?!
Hence no network (neither t'Internet nor local AP/router, and hence no wireless printer/scanner).
I manually enabled the NIC, and restarted the PC properly (not shutdown/fastboot). Normal service was resumed - interweb and print/scanner working as expected.
The facts, as I saw them.
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:45 GMT Andy Taylor
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
This sounds like you don't understand how useful DHCP is or what it does.
DNS is not "continually reset by DHCP", it is only changed if you move networks or if the DHCP server settings have been changed *and the DHCP lease time has expired*.
If, like me, your machine is used on multiple networks, a static DNS is a pain.
Secondly, as one of the workarounds for this "issue" is to set a static IP address, its not surprising that people have misread the comment.
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 18:18 GMT Gerhard Mack
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
"static DNS: worst case, use 8.8.8.8 [should work everywhere the intarwebs is supported] - it's a freebie from google. [yeah they probably track it]"
Great plan.. now explain how I I access local resources by host names that don't resolve on the wider internet . Even some Wifi routers use DNS to redirect you to their setup page.
Come to think of it. One of my predecessors used to keep a company wide zone file for our parent company with resources we needed to access and even that turned into an maintainable mess.
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 20:17 GMT RW
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
Sounds like you thought I meant a static IP rather than a static address for DNS.
People not thinking I meant static DNS address.
If people are misconstruing what you wrote, then you need to work harder at writing without being vague and/or ambiguous.
-
-
-
-
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 12:48 GMT Anonymous Coward
specify a range for DHCP
"Does your router not allow you to specify a range for DHCP, thus reserving the rest for static IP addresses?"
The one I've got now certainly does, but the ISP-supplied one (BT HomeHub, sorry) probably didn't, and even if it did, Joe Public usually doesn't want to be playing network admin.
Come back Voyager 2100 (or conceptual equivalent).
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:15 GMT Anonymous Coward
@Gert
Are you kidding? It's working like a charm and the end results are even better than expected.
You see: the whole underlying reasoning here goes much deeper. All those users who fell off the Internet? It's easy: they shouldn't have bashed Windows 8 and Windows 10 and kept on using it. If you hate Windows 10 you don't use it. Everyone knows how to downgrade to Windows 7, it's easy! (please look at the icon! ;)). So if you continue to use Windows 10 and make Microsoft look bad you're a hypocrite.
And so, to protect us from the hypocrites, Microsoft has finally launched their latest product: Microsoft HypoWay. It artificially scans your Windows environment for any back traces of Windows and Microsoft negativity and if it finds some then your Internet connection will be throttled for an X amount of time. That will teach you not to hurt an already fragile business model by spreading bad rumours!
So obviously Microsoft won't "fix" this because there's nothing to fix, this isn't a bug: it's the latest feature! And what an amazing one it is, Microsoft Answers has never been so relaxed as it is now!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Java project to work on. It's going to be amazing: we're building a desktop application which has web based support (Java EE through Tomcat) for specific features. It's going to be exciting: Enterprise JavaBeans to support the JavaBeans inside my application. I like c# and ASP.NET a lot as well, but this interaction between the desktop and a web service is where Java can seriously have the upper hand in my opinion. And also... eouwiofpunj128739@&*()@
<connection reset by peer>
-
-
-
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 00:18 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Not as farcial as the BBC advice
"1) Reboot your PC.
2) If that does not fix your problem and you still do not have Internet Connectivity, then visit this webpage for further instructions ..."
Not quite as daft as it sounds since to be able to read that advice in the first place, the reader obviously has some sort of device capable of loading and displaying WWW pages. Sorry to spoil your fun :-)
-
-
-
-
Sunday 18th December 2016 07:13 GMT kb
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
It works perfectly fine for MSFT's customers...which are those that pay the monthly fee for Windows 10 Enterprise. Oh you didn't get the memo? They fired pretty much all of their QA and testing teams right before the launch of Win 10, now the alpha and beta tester is YOU if you have Win 10 Insider, Home or Pro respectively.
Basically Insider is the alpha build, Pro and Home are the early beta (Home) and late beta (Pro because you can delay updates) and the actual RTM finished product? Sorry but that is only a rental, you have to pay every month for Win 10 Enterprise if you actually want a non beta OS from MSFT now...or stick with Win 7 as many of us did.
Isn't it sad that they replaced the sweaty monkey, whose idea of innovation was to ape Apple, with Nutella whose idea of innovation is to ape Google and like the monkey do a p*ss poor job of it? Lets just hope he gets fired soon enough and they get someone in there that realizes there is still good money to be made by building a quality OS that people actually want to use.
-
Sunday 18th December 2016 10:11 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: It's all a bit farcical, isn't it?
"there is still good money to be made by building a quality OS that people actually want to use."
The vast majority of people with computers (visible computers and invisible ones) don't think about using an OS, they think about getting a job done in a simple and reliable and affordable way.
Surfing the web, doing email, that kind of stuff, doesn't need Windows and consequently people have been ignoring Windows in droves. Unfortunately the current alternatives (Android, iThings) come with their own personal disadvantages.
What's next?
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 10:37 GMT Mephistro
Re: "Cumulative updates" strikes again
"Isn't it about time Vole realised that..."
Hehe, had to look up that one:
" any of various small rodents (Microtus and related genera) that typically have a stout body, rather blunt nose, and short ears, ..."
Vole~=Microtus~=Microsoft
The part about a stout body, blunt nose and short ears also fits well! ;-)
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 08:51 GMT Joerg
Re: Stuff like this...
Unfortunately Microsoft is forcing more and more people to use the Windows8.2=10 spyware crap. Soon Visual Studio will run on Windows10 only. The Kinect SDK doesn't work on Windows7 and they want you to use Windows8.x
It is only getting worse. Microsoft deserves to go bankrupt.
-
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 10:25 GMT Kiwi
Re: Stuff like this...
"Soon Visual Studio will run on Windows10 only." Your proof?
https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/productinfo/vs2017-system-requirements-vs
But that link is proof of what was said. Do you see Vista on that list? XP? 9x? No? So, assuming this nightmare that is MS continues, some time after 8.x support officially ends (mainstream support ends on January 9, 2018 according to MS) 8 will drop off the supported OS list, leaving only 10. If MS renegs on their promise/threat to only update 10 and not release a new version of Windows, logically it must eventually be the only one supported.
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 13:05 GMT cambsukguy
Re: Stuff like this...
> It is only getting worse. Microsoft deserves to go bankrupt
And yet MSFT was 55 a year ago and is 62 now, and for comparison perhaps, AAPL was 113 and is 114 now, Alphabet 748/789. MS seem to have done better than those similar, large corps.
Since the people that matter only care about the above numbers (and where they might go), I doubt they will go bankrupt.
As I have said before, as a user, I would like to see more love for the mobile platform but I can see why they just want to make loads of money, it is their job.
Obviously, they should also consider whether they make loads of money in five years time too but I think that they think they will, despite what folks here say.
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 05:12 GMT Rattus Rattus
@cambsukguy
"as a user, I would like to see more love for the mobile platform"
As a user, I'd like to see much LESS attention to the mobile platform, it's seriously screwing up desktop functionality. Half the design failures of Windows 10, and most of the design failures of Windows 8, would have never occurred if MS weren't trying to push this crap about "unifying" desktop and mobile.
-
This post has been deleted by its author
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:24 GMT Adam 52
Sore point this, as ever since I upgraded to the latest Ubuntu LTS my network interface drops out whenever I make more than 6 ssh connections and ssh performance randomly falls off a cliff.
It's not just me. For the others that reported it the Linux community is just as useless as Microsoft, recommending restarting the network layer.
I could roll back Windows to 7 just as I could roll back Ubuntu to 12. Both are a massive pain. Both result in nagware urging an upgrade.
The point is that on support it's ba no-score draw but I expect Microsoft will fix their issue within the week. The Linux one, probably won't be.
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 13:39 GMT Sandtitz
@Gert
OP: "If something breaks in Linux due to an update you have so many options to work around, fix or revert."
AC: "Uh, you can uninstall updates under Windows 10, and there is a workaround (netsh winsock reset)."
GL: "That's a lot of floor walking for IT"
In this case there's a lot of walking if network doesn't function. If a Linux box has its network disconnected you would equally need to use Adidas networking.
The OP was speaking in general terms ("if something breaks"). Therefore you could normally uninstall the offending update via WSUS, Powershell or via a remote connection - just like you would with Linux.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 17:38 GMT Naselus
"That's a lot of floor walking for IT, going to each and every workstation, getting a privileged command prompt and typing that, was kind of a point I made earlier."
Is it, though?
After all, this only appears to be impacting router DHCP - not server-based DHCP configs. And most companies with >25 employees are probably on domain, with a DC server running DHCP and DNS, and using a proper firewall as the main gateway rather than just sticking a residential-grade router in. In the smaller businesses, it's not much more than an hours work to get everyone in the office back online; in larger offices, the infrastructure is more advanced and so immune.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing this magnificent clusterfuck, but I suspect the main beef is going to be from home users of the plug-and-play variety rather than SMEs.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 20:56 GMT Chloe Cresswell
Had this yesterday at a client's.
KC suggested to the client rebooting the router. Didn't do much, as dhcpd is disabled on the router, and is coming from a windows server. So it can affect MS DHCP server requests to.
Client has 2 identical machines on the network. Naturally only one was affected by this.
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:51 GMT Mage
Options
I always create at least one extra unused account on Windows or Linux.
On Linux I also add another Desktop, as logging in with a different one to fix a broken one is easier than CLI, but you only have one Desktop or CLI on Windows. Also remove or re-install (sudo apt-get etc) of a broken thing is simple on Linux CLI compared to Windows CLI, if you have even a phone to look up t'interwebs for the commands.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 16:02 GMT frank ly
@Mage Re: Options
To fix problems on Linux, I log in as root because it's so easy to change stuff when you're root. I gave root a really ugly colour scheme to make sure that I'm not tempted to use it too often.
Using an alternative desktop manager sounds like a good idea so I'll try that too.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 16:35 GMT Teiwaz
Re: @Mage Options
I gave root a really ugly colour scheme to make sure that I'm not tempted to use it too often.
Yikes, using a GUI with the SuperUser? Is it still the early 2000's?
If your regular UI is working, you should be using that with your regular user (with Admin SU rights *) and escalate when required - most 'Linux desktops will prompt for access to escalate privilages properly these days (unlike the beginning of the century).
* I am aware some people have issues with sudo, but it's got to be safer than logging into a Gui with ROOT.
Getting effective with the CLI is progress to being aquainted with every 'Linux distribution, and other Unices, it's worth it
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 16:27 GMT Teiwaz
Re: Options
On Linux I also add another Desktop, as logging in with a different one to fix a broken one is easier than CLI
I see no point to that, Desktops on linux have gotten so complex and intergrated, I find it easier to try deleting or moving all the setup files (and they are usually needlessly all over the place on /home) and logging in again (had to do it a couple of times when KDE5 was maturing).
Adequate CLI experience is worth it's weight ten times over versus 'another' desktop ui, when it comes to bug fixing. For Admin tasks, I prefer to reach for a term or the console, to me, UIs are for user work, somewhere inbetween, there are Window Managers (tiler for preference).
Logo: 'cause closest to a 'crusty 'linux neckbeard' icon...
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 18:04 GMT bombastic bob
Re: Options
how about just booting Linux to a console every time. "it's too hard to type startx" <-- yeah, right
sudo systemctl enable multi-user.target --force
sudo systemctl set-default multi-user.target
voila! you're welcome. to do this with good ol' sysvinit, you can modify the 'Snn' script to only a 'Knn' script for things like gdm, kdm, xdm, yotta yotta for the /etc/rc#.d directory corresponding to the run level you plan on using when you boot up (usually /etc/rc2.d). I found that to be easier to figure out, but a bit harder to actually do...
[nearly ALL of my linux computers/VMs do this, with rare exceptions]
And of course, FreeBSD is "this way" out of the box!
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 15:16 GMT agatum
If something breaks in Linux due to an update you have so many options to work around, fix or revert. You have no choice with Microsoft other than wait for them to pull their finger out of their ass and get their shit together.
Yes. I've recently had to work with win7 on a customer case and every now and then wlan goes down. Start the 'troubleshooter', watch a few minutes of indefinite 'progressbar' 'progressing' and then eventually a diagnosis: 'something seems to be wrong, can't tell you what, do you want to see an online solution?'
Online solution?
THE FUCKING INTERNET CONNECTION IS DOWN!
Hilarious. Connection always comes up though after rebooting.
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 10:35 GMT Kiwi
Online solution?
THE FUCKING INTERNET CONNECTION IS DOWN!
Reminds me of a problem I had with a customer's machine a couple of years back. Traced internet problems to a fault with Windows firewall on their machine (corrupt file or registry or something, can't recall which but most likely registry setting). In searching for answers I came across a MS firewall repair tool. Downloaded on another machine, copied to USB, sneakernet to faulty machine, plug in and run....
"Error. An internet connection is required to use the firewall repair tool." [heaving paraphrased].
WTF MS? Why the hell would you release such a tool that required an active connection? Don't you think that someone downloading a "firewall repair tool" would obviously have internet connection problems? (sure, it could be a fault simply stopping some software from working or setting of other rules, but the most obvious reason is that the user can't connect to the net!)
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:06 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: T0ssers!
Microsoft have turned all it's users to long-term ALPHA testers. That heap of poo Windows 10 should have never left the starting gate and maybe should have been turned into dog food by now.
There, fixed that for you.
Although a similar fix on another forum got me a warning for abusive behaviour!!
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 16:34 GMT VinceH
Re: T0ssers!
"Shirly windows 10 users are only alpha testers these days?"
Which means this latest breakage is yet another example of them making full use of the foot gun - if their alpha testers' computers struggle to get connected to their routers, and thus online, they cease to be testers.
-
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 13:50 GMT Mage
Re: You know what isn't affected by this update?
I installed one the other day in a VM on Linux, my 1st XP since years ago. Baffled at broken update, install "user agent 3" fixed it.
It normally won't connect to network or rest of disk. In contrast MS's Win7 XP mode is totally promiscuous default settings making the VM useless to provide any security!
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 12:55 GMT wolfetone
Re: You know what isn't affected by this update?
"I'll base your comment on the assumption that you forgot to add the joke icon, and have an upvote for making me chuckle..."
I did intend the joke icon, but you can't select an icon when posting a comment via the mobile site.
So, El Reg, sort it out yeah?
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 20:38 GMT wolfetone
Re: You know what isn't affected by this update?
"Are we sure about this? 2 of my cousins with XP + POS-ready have been randomly offline over the past week. And there was I blaming TeamViewer 12 update (sorry...)"
It happened to me years ago on XP that the network would just give up. After a while the restarts stopped fixing the issue, and I had to nuke and pave XP again.
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
Got rung up by "Microsoft" this morning...
Unfortunately, I wasn't properly awake, and instead of quizzing "Mike" immediately about the DHCP problem to try and string the call out for the sake of the less technically aware amoung us, I asked in as cheery a voice as I could manage if he was really from Microsoft. Unfortunately, he hung up at that point; maybe I shouldn't have emphasized the sarcastic tone of the word "really" so much... Looks like their grasp of english is improving.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 12:04 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: Got rung up by "Microsoft" this morning...
Unfortunately, I wasn't properly awake, and instead of quizzing "Mike" immediately about the DHCP problem to try and string the call out for the sake of the less technically aware among us
Hmmm. The current problem should give the stringing along a whole new dimension. "No, you can't connect to my PC, I can't get it connected to the internet."
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:47 GMT Pascal Monett
"instructions on how to address this"
Are the same thing we've been hearing for the 20 past years, is one of the first questions of every call center drone ever, and has been transferred into public conscience under the moniker "the 3-fingered salute".
Come back when you have something useful to say, Microsoft.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 09:59 GMT Cursorkeys
We're seeing this (since Monday morning) on a solitary Windows 10 Pro machine. It works fine until the DHCP lease expires then drops to a private IP with the accompanying gnashing of teeth from the user.
Interestingly, the only fix is a full reboot or an 'ipconfig /release *' 'ipconfig /renew *' cycle. Despite claiming it doesn't have a lease, disabling and re-enabling the adaptor or re-plugging the ethernet cable does not cause it to get a new lease while the manual method seems to be 100% effective.
We're avoiding the problem by giving that one client a static IP until Microsoft fixs this.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 10:15 GMT Andy Taylor
Don't think Microsoft has the monopoly on dodgy DHCP clients
Try MacOS/iOS
Any normal DHCP client that has previously been connected to a network will usually send a request with the IP address it had previously. If that address is wrong or no longer available, the server will respond with a rejection. The client should then ask again as if it had never connected before:
Client: I want to use 192.168.1.27 as my IP address please?
Server: No
Client: Can I have an IP address?
Server: Yes, you can use 192.168.34.89 if you want, also here's the DNS server etc.
Client: I will use 192.168.34.89
Server: Acknowledged.
On Mac OS, the conversation is more like this:
Client: I want to use 192.168.1.27 as my IP address please?
Server: No
Client: I want to use 192.168.1.27 as my IP address please?
Server: No
Client: I want to use 192.168.1.27 as my IP address please?
Server: No
Client: Can I have an IP address?
Server: Yes, you can use 192.168.34.89 if you want, also here's the DNS server etc.
Client: I will use 192.168.34.89
Server: Acknowledged.
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 18:14 GMT bombastic bob
Re: Don't think Microsoft has the monopoly on dodgy DHCP clients
"Why would a client ask a server to use the IP address under DHCP? It would just ask to renew."
when you initially connect to the network, the DHCP client attempts to re-use the last good IP address, first. It's part of the protocol. After that, it requests a renewal at a point in time before the IP address expires.
/me wonders if MSshaft's bug is asking for the renewal AFTER it expires...
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 10:20 GMT TRT
Re: the DHCP client attempts to re-use the last good IP address
Really? I can't find a reference to this. Is it part of some wake-up protocol? My initial comment was based on trying to crowbar the OPs highly stylised and anthropomorphic version of DHCP transactions into the agreed way to describe the sequence of events. "Can I use x address?" I interpreted as a REQUEST without it being in response to an OFFER following a DISCOVER. That shouldn't happen, so I thought maybe they meant DHCP RENEW. Which, quite rightly does contain the client IP address, but is more of a "Can I continue to use?"
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 12:01 GMT TRT
Re: the DHCP client attempts to re-use the last good IP address
Seriously, don't just down vote stuff if you're not going to point in the right direction. I feel I'm missing something here and I can't find any reference either online or in my Cisco networking course books, or in my Network + course books.
When do you get a DHCP REQUEST containing a non-special IP without an OFFER preceding it?
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 17:50 GMT Ken Hagan
Re: Don't think Microsoft has the monopoly on dodgy DHCP clients
"To the people giving me thumbs down, go and run a packet trace, this is exactly what an Apple client does."
And did anyone so much as suggest that it isn't? No. Your downvotes are for two quite different reasons. Firstly, you said something that makes a particular OS look inept. Expect downvotes from fanboys. Secondly, you said something a while back on an unrelated topic that put someone's nose out of joint. Expect downvotes on everything you post until they forget who you are or they find someone new to pester or (but it won't happen) they get a life.
And to all those people in these two categories: May you choke to death on mince pies this Christmas.
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 10:25 GMT chivo243
Next Option?
"So users can either reboot, switch to static IPs, try the flushing commands, revert their updates to an earlier point, install Linux, try macOS, or give up and move off the grid into the forests where it is calm and peaceful."
Done all of the above except moving to the forest, which seems to be moving up the leader board, fast, see you in Fanghorn?
Yes, the Elvish cloak...
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 12:49 GMT Doctor Huh?
Re: Next Option?
I'm moving my elderly in-laws to a Mac. A nice vintage 2011-2013 Pro with an SSD and a Time Capsule should do the trick. Then I'm out of the Windows support business forever. I'm done with Microsoft's strides to make their products entirely unusable. I don't use LibreOffice just because I'm cheap -- I _prefer_ it to MS Office.
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 13:34 GMT APA
I duel boot my machine and disabled fast start so that when linux fires up the partition isn't marked as dirty (I keep my Steam library on the Windows partition). The problem is that every time I do an update it somehow gets re-selected again.
What DID fix my problem was adding "remove_hiberfile" to fstab
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 11:07 GMT Michael H.F. Wilkinson
Oh really?
“Some customers have reported difficulties connecting to the Internet, and instructions on how to address this are posted here in our help forum,” a Microsoft spokesperson told The Reg.
How nice, if you cannot reach that help forum because to do so you need network connectivity which has just been borked. Did this spokesperson actually listen to what he/she/they/it were saying? Sometimes it does help to parse a sentence before venting it
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 11:47 GMT Steve Davies 3
Re: The Redmond spinner would not reveal which Windows Update patch is at fault
Nah, it is worse than that.
All of windows 10 is at fault.
Personally, the sooner it is nuked the better and Microsoft with it. It is clearly not fit for purpose (like the F-35...) and should be junked forthwith.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 12:22 GMT Wade Burchette
Re: The Redmond spinner would not reveal which Windows Update patch is at fault
Also 'Microsoft is purposefully vague' about their updates. I have noticed the update descriptions have become vague ever since people started to read them. People were forced to read them because of unwanted telemetry/GWX updates that were pushed out as important updates. The solution to that problem is to stop telling people what the updates do.
There is a difference between wisdom and intelligence. A smart person sees the money that is being made on app stores for phones/tablets and thinks that it is a good idea to convert a computer UI to something like the phone/tablet UI. A wise person knows that phones/tablets are a different market and a different type of tool and it is stupid to mix the two. If you have to tell your customers how to reboot, you failed, period. SatNad is smart but not wise. People are staying with Microsoft because they have little choice. But if they keep kicking their customers extra hard in the groin, sooner or later they will revolt and switch.
-
This post has been deleted by its author
-
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 00:49 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: @Wade Burchette, re: Intelligence vs Wisdom.
Game shows are carefully designed to NOT show up the contestants and always include a number of simple/easy questions. Fewer people would watch them because the audience at home needs to feel clever and also be able to answer enough questions so as not to feel dumb.
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 01:36 GMT Pompous Git
Re: @Wade Burchette, re: Intelligence vs Wisdom.
Game shows are carefully designed to NOT show up the contestants and always include a number of simple/easy questions.
Clearly you have never watched Hard Quiz. It’s great fun to hear Gleeson say, "You were really hopeless just then, weren’t you? You should have chosen a topic you knew something about. Now get out of here!"
-
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 01:28 GMT Pompous Git
Re: @Wade Burchette, re: Intelligence vs Wisdom.
trivia game show guests would be geniuses... and they definitely aren't.
Like Barry Jones? Back in the 1960s "he famously claimed that, in the future, there would be more computers than cars in Tasmania. Nationwide, people responded with laughter and ridicule. Australians thought the claim was absurd and nonsense." What an idiot!Disclaimer: Jones taught the teacher who taught me critical thinking in 1968.
-
-
-
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 00:45 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: The Redmond spinner would not reveal which Windows Update patch is at fault
"Or The Redmond spinner has no clue which Windows Update patch is at fault"
Quite likely. Always put a non-techy PR flack out for these things then s/he can honestly claim not to have lied, aka plausible deniabilty..
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 12:28 GMT djvrs
Easy to explain fix
Had to fix two machines for friends already... Quickest way to explain to users (does delete saved wifi passwords so not as efficient as the netsh command)
Start > Settings > Network & Internet > Click Network Reset at the bottom... Reboot PC and reconnect to your wifi network if required.
-
This post has been deleted by its author
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 13:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
Has anyone run Wireshark...
On the DHCP request from the PC and on the network the packet gets out on.
It would show if it was the request not being sent at all, or blocked by the firewall in win10 or a malformed request.
My bet is that the update is isduing the DHCP request but that the network driver is not up at the time. Hence a hard reboot or release/renew or the network stack reset all works is that these make sure the network stack is up before the os sends out its DHCP request.
-
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 21:08 GMT Naselus
Re: Has anyone run Wireshark...
Honestly intrigued by the downvotes on this. Normally, I couldn't care less what the average commentard thinks, but in this case it's a pretty non-controversial statement to attract 4 downers.
Anyone care to explain why they're hostile to the idea that this could've been caused by MS simply abandoning an older DHCP option which was still in use by, say, the BT Home Hub mk1? Or was I simply not being anti-MS enough for the penguinistas?
-
Friday 16th December 2016 01:46 GMT Pompous Git
Re: Has anyone run Wireshark...
Honestly intrigued by the downvotes on this. Normally, I couldn't care less what the average commentard thinks, but in this case it's a pretty non-controversial statement to attract 4 downers.
Welcome to the new El Reg. At least the post hasn't been deleted by the moderators. Yet... -
Friday 16th December 2016 06:48 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Has anyone run Wireshark...
"Anyone care to explain why they're hostile to the idea that this could've been caused by MS simply abandoning an older DHCP option which was still in use by, say, the BT Home Hub mk1?"
I'd be unsupportive of the idea that the problem is confined to e.g. the HH1, because I saw the problem personally on a BT HH5. Therefore it seems to me it's not confined to BT HH 1.
It's called evidence and logic. Technical decisions are often better made when based on evidence and logic rather than on faith, especially when faith contradicts evidence.
I also wrote the following post about RFCs, in response to someone's suggestion that it might be a vendor picking and choosing what to implement:
"Either the required functionality is in the relevant RFCs and any competent set of vendors should implement it properly.
Or it's not in the RFCs and no competent vendor should rely on it."
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 13:59 GMT Anonymous Coward
Reboot pray repeat
It's stuff like this that makes linux users smile with perhaps a hint of satisfaction.
man dhclient.conf and /var/log/daemon.log give the warm fuzzies that, should things break for whatever reason, they can be fixed with the application of logical thought. Not that stuff like this ever does randomly break once you've got it set up, but it's a comfort knowing everything is documented, open, sane just in case.
There's no hidden magic, cryptic registry keys, out-of-spec behaviour, massive nebulous undocumented 'updates', mysteries built upon mystery which tend to render the only solution in Windows world to be reboot and pray.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 14:59 GMT nkuk
Re: Reboot pray repeat
That was one of the main reasons I moved away from Windows, its becoming increasingly like a closed-box console OS. You just can't troubleshoot and get under the hood of Windows like you used to be able to, even making cosmetic changes to the UI is becoming more and more locked down. If UWP apps ever take off (as if!) it will become even worse. It look me a little while to get used to Linux but there's no way I would ever go back to Windows now.
-
This post has been deleted by its author
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 17:58 GMT nkuk
Re: Reboot pray repeat
Hi Shadmeister :)
I think it has been Microsofts long term strategy since Metro, Windows Phone 7, Windows 8, and the lofty and quietly forgotten marketing goal of "1 billion Windows 10 devices", to try to move their developers and users to UWP, the benefits seem pretty one sided and totally in Microsofts favour, developers have two choices:
a) release an x86 program and keep all their profits or
b) release a UWP app, and give up ~30% of their income to Microsoft who will vet and publish the app on a store that next to no-one cares about
end users also have two choices:
a) buy the x86 program/game where in many cases there is pricing competition
b) buy the more expensive UWP app/game, that is closed-off, un-modable and has other limitations compared to its x86 version, and is on a store that has no competitive UWP pricing competition and has a history of keeping its prices high. Its supposed to be safer but in reality no safer than buying from any other reputable source.
It's no wonder the app store is barren and generally unsupported by developers. I wasn't aware that Microsoft were planning to bundle driver updates with games - I can see that becoming a can of worms! when they can't even get their own updates reliable and problem free. Thanks for the link :)
I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft did continue to try to herd people into using UWP and depreciated the alternative APIs, even if its the smart decision rather than the wise one as @Wade Burchette mentioned in an earlier comment. I think they saw Apple and Google make money from their app stores and are desperate to generate a similar revenue stream of their own.
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 23:30 GMT handleoclast
Re: Reboot pray repeat
When you write "Not a Microsoft hater - they did maintain their OS's for many years with a single one off payment from ourselves," I suspect you're talking of XP. But XP is a special case. When XP was introduced the internet was still growing exponentially, obviating the need for a 3-year replacement cycle to give Microsoft a revenue stream. The bug-fixes you were getting for free were paid for by all the newbies buying a computer for the first time just to get on the interwebs.
Internet growth stopped being exponential so XP had to be replaced by Vista (a dog-egg sandwich) in order to generate revenue. If Vista hadn't been such a disaster it would have been 3 years before a replacement appeared, but Win 7 had to be brought out in a hurry. When the revenue stream from Win 7 started to decline, in came Win 8 (a double-decker dog-egg sandwich made with mouldy bread), and that would have lasted 3 years if it hadn't been such a disaster.
Now MS have decided that they will charge for the bugfixes. Technically and economically that's actually sound reasoning and fair to consumers, although most ordinary people won't think so. So there'll be a rebellion of people declining to rent what they've already paid for (as they will see it). So MS will ham-handedly put a time-bomb into things so that if you stop paying for updates then Windows stops working except for the purpose of paying for updates again (at which point it will start working again). Then people will get mightily pissed off.
Bring on the dancing penguins.
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 00:58 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Reboot pray repeat
"Now MS have decided that they will charge for the bugfixes. Technically and economically that's actually sound reasoning and fair to consumers,"
For updates and improvemnets, maybe. But bug fixes? No. They ought to be free because they sold you something that doesn't work. If it worked, it'd not need a bug fix.
(yes, I know a lot of people got Win10 for "free", but not everyone. The cost is part of a new PC or an Enterprise licence)
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 11:20 GMT Kiwi
Re: Reboot pray repeat
Now MS have decided that they will charge for the bugfixes. Technically and economically that's actually sound reasoning and fair to consumers, although most ordinary people won't think so.
A little while ago something belonging to a friend had a "bugfix". His 12 year old car was part of a recall by the makers because something on it wasn't working quite right. It's an old car by modern consumer standards, and very high k's by any standards, but there was a screw up during the manufacturing process and it was repaired on the manufacturer's dime.
It should be the same with MS. If they didn't get it right, they should cover the cost of fixing it, not their users.
Thankfully, MS and their current attempts to extract $$$ from users is helping to encourage people to move elsewhere.
-
-
-
-
Tuesday 13th December 2016 23:39 GMT handleoclast
Re: Reboot pray repeat
The word you are looking for is "schadenfreude." It's a German word meaning "The pleasure that one experiences when one realizes that a different language is inferior to one's own because that other language does not have a word for something that one's own language does have." Thus the German's experience schadenfreude when they find out that English didn't have a word meaning schadenfreude until it was borrowed from German.
-
This post has been deleted by its author
-
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 01:57 GMT Pompous Git
Nearly 18 months ago...
... The Git swore he would never have anything to do with w10 again. The stove he loves almost as much as the food cooked thereon needed repair. The manufacturer (Thermo Rossi) is in Italy, the nearest repairman is 4,129.8 km away. Fortunately, The Git's friend Tony has manufactured two tiny replacement rollers for the malfunctioning oven door.
Unfortunately, payment was: "Can you fix my daughter's laptop computer?" W10 was shite when I briefly looked at it over a year ago and it's still shite. I did manage to get boot-time down from five minutes to 30 seconds. But I feel disgusted rather than elated.
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 10:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
Good time to check your router
My old router from my ISP wouldn't let you set local static IP addresses only DHCP.
Glad I had them update my router recently as setting static local IP addresses was the first thing I did, mainly as having a constantly shifting DHCP address on my NAS was a PITA.
-
Wednesday 14th December 2016 11:53 GMT PhilErrington
Simple fixed worked today
Symptom: Windows 10, DHCP dead for local and wireless connection.
Solution. SHIFT shutdown
Result: working after churning for a bit on the shutdown and restart.
I believe the SHIFT shutdown forces windows 10 do clean up a bit.
This has also fixed slow internet access on similar windows 10 kit recently.
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 09:08 GMT Kiwi
Cupla Things..
1) "But Microsoft is either unwilling or unable to give out that information."
Surely they know which patches messed with networking stuff. Or are MS even more incompetent than I imagined?
2) "In the search box on the taskbar, type Command prompt, " from https://support.microsoft.com/en-nz/help/10741/windows-10-fix-network-connection-issues
I thought with MS stuff you could do everything from the GUI and never ever ever ever needed to enter complex commands into a command line interface? Wonder how many of the shills are going to be showing up on these articles?
-
Thursday 15th December 2016 12:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
Surely they know which patches messed with networking stuff.
Why would they? The 'modern' approach of gazillions of layers of abstraction and obfuscation beneath the shiny top level code means that application coders (and, if they exist, designers) don't need to have any clue of what's going on underneath.
Two classic examples of this, one directly user-visible and one less so:
"Windows cannot copy the file" or (if you are lucky) "Windows cannot copy the file: operation failed", and friends.
Less directly visible:
The behaviour of many 'always on' apps which were accustomed to frequently (every few seconds) polling a remote data source and getting away with it on a LAN with decent response times and bandwidth. Move the same application to a mobile environment, with no understanding of the implications of the mobile environment, and the combination of longish cellular connection setup times and limited bandwidth means disappointment all round, not just for the app users but for everyone else sharing the cellular spectrum and bandwidth in question.
But don't worry, faster processors with more cores will fix it. Not.
-
Biting the hand that feeds IT
