Higher tech prices ARE here to stay. It's Mr Farage's new Britain One of the UK’s biggest slingers of print services has warned customers it can no longer afford to fully soak up rising prices from printer hardware makers, which jumped after the EU referendum and now look like permanent mark-ups. Danwood has written to clients that have a service or print services agreement to inform them of …
Things like "cost" and "a plan" are just buzzwords the liberal media elite bandy around to frustrate the declared will of the English people.
Yes. And No.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/10/brexit-must-be-fair-to-working-people-ed-miliband
Ignore the Millipede and skip to paragraph 2. Quoting it here for those who have a graunidad allergy - this is based on a poll conducted in November:
Polling of Brexit voters by the Open Britain campaign shows half are not prepared to be a penny worse off as a result of leaving the EU. That includes 59% in the north; 62% of Labour Leave voters; 46% of Conservative leavers; and even 39% of Ukip voters. Only one in 10 Brexit voters is prepared to lose more than £100 a month.
So apparently, the English People actually want something which my Advanced Computer Science teacher in high school referred to in the prehistoric pre-political correctness days as: Have your penis in both hands and your soul in paradise at the same time. The more polite British version is: "Have your cake and eat it to".
All I can do is quote the German finance minister: "Let's do a thought experiment. I have a cake, I eat the cake, do I still have the cake? Do not think so".
The British voter looked at Europe, saw it was a massive mess, saw that it was impossible to get a better deal for the UK, and voted for sovereignty.
This was a rational decision that prices in the uncertainty and short-term pain. The poll sponsored by Open Britain (a pro-EU campaign group) and cited in The Guardian (a pro-EU newspaper) was designed to produce the response it got. No surprise there.
Only an idiot thinks leaving a superstate pain free. Most benefits are long-term, prices will fall as the Common Tariff no longer applies to the UK.
Better a Brexit than a Le Pen or a Trump (thank God).
"The British voter looked at Europe, saw it was a massive mess, saw that it was impossible to get a better deal for the UK, and voted for sovereignty.
This was a rational decision that prices in the uncertainty and short-term pain."
Do you really believe that that (a) most of the Leave voters priced in anything - which in some cases may well prove to be their jobs - and (b) the result of a long term change will be short-term?
"Do you really believe that that (a) most of the Leave voters priced in anything - which in some cases may well prove to be their jobs - and (b) the result of a long term change will be short-term?"
Yes, because after six months of Remainers predicting catastrophe their beds, there is no buyer's remorse. We are leaving the EU. People are pleased to be taking back control, even it is less than they might ideally want.
And a General Election would wipe out the Remain parties: Labour and LibDem.
Remain supporters here really are beginning to sound like they need psychological help.
"Yes, because after six months of Remainers predicting catastrophe their beds, there is no buyer's remorse. We are leaving the EU. People are pleased to be taking back control, even it is less than they might ideally want."
You seem to have a very poor understanding of the time scales at work here. We're in what might be termed the phony war period.
In case you haven't noticed we still don't have a definitive answer to the constitutional way to invoke Article 50. Amazingly the Leavers don't even seem to have thought about that essential preliminary. It doesn't bode well for the rest of their planning.
Apart from that we're just seeing the obvious financial penalty of a devalued pound; it'll be some time before the inflationary effects of that work through. We're quite some way from finding what sort of pig is in the poke the Leavers have contrived to but for us.
"And a General Election would wipe out the Remain parties: Labour and LibDem."
Let's look at the timing. May plans to invoke Article 50 next year. It all becomes effective in 2019. By the time the next election is due there'll have been a year's experience. If it's been a hard Brexit we'll see corporations who have set up EU operations here starting to move them back into the EU and people will be losing their jobs*. If it's been a soft Brexit it will be becoming apparent that things are much as they were - still in the customs union, still with freedom of movement, still subject to the EU regulations etc, still paying something into the EU but with significantly less control. As the consequences start to dawn on the electorate I think it will be the Leave parties that get wiped out.
*Yes, I know you're about to tell us about all the world-wide trade deals. Even if there are any of these that don't involve shafting us they'll be some way from delivering any visible benefits.
In case you haven't noticed we still don't have a definitive answer to the constitutional way to invoke Article 50
We have a definitive answer, just waiting on supreme court to do it's job right and confirm that essential truth. It's a legal argument, some people who think they're smarter than they are think that invoking article 50 is the job of parliament because it affects people's rights. It's fundamentally legally flawed because invoking article 50 doesn't change a thing and fwiw parliament can't invoke article 50 even if it wants to. If it held a vote today and decided it wanted to and created a law it would have to ask the executive to do it because it can't. This stuff doesn't have to be complicated.
FWIW on all the other nonsense in this thread - yes some of us leave voted that people probably don't get the actual situation but also we have no problem with people doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. I still think Starkey summed up the non-economics up best recently.
"We have a definitive answer ... some people who think they're smarter than they are think that invoking article 50 is the job of parliament because it affects people's rights" --- streaky
If we're talking about people "who think they're smarter than they are" could I respectfully suggest that includes those who think their legal understanding exceeds that of the members of the UK Supreme Court?
could I respectfully suggest that includes those who think their legal understanding exceeds that of the members of the UK Supreme Court?
No for two reasons: firstly that we don't know what the supreme court thinks yet and secondly that I'm not entirely sure the government has put it so succinctly that it's easy to understand to them. They're going to have their for/against biases either way - they're fairly well documented but hopefully they can view the case on legalities rather than those.
I'm in a low wage job or unemployed. They can't come after me for the money, I haven't got any. Someone else will have to pay for this. Someone else will pay for this. No skin off my nose
That's interesting, I'm high wage employed working for an international company - difference is I understand the economics. There's no left or right wing case for continued membership which is why the centre ground is owned by brexiteers.
Apparently the young are so much smarter than people who have been round and round with the EU; or those of us who have worked for companies that have been munched up and asset stripped and all the jobs moved to Germany. There's many fundamental problems with the UK economy and the EU isn't the only one but it is the biggest elephant in the room and it's charging around breaking the tea service - then we're supposed to want to stay in because roaming charges and we don't have to get a visa (pretending for a second there won't be a visa-free travel agreement anyway).
The UK will be far happier and richer out.
"It's a legal argument, some people who think they're smarter than they are think that invoking article 50 is the job of parliament because it affects people's rights."
It's the job of Parliament because Parliament is sovereign. We've been working on that one for over a third of a millennium.
And we don't have a definitive answer yet because HMG appealed the high court decision and we don't yet have the supreme court's verdict.
>> And a General Election would wipe out the Remain parties: Labour and LibDem.
You realise almost half the people who voted picked "remain" don't you.
You realise large swathes of the country voted "remain" don't you.
If you think that those places are suddenly going to say "were leaving the EU now so lets pick someone we disagree with" I'm not sure what logic you are using.
No. The British voter saw no such thing. Many British voters looked to Boris and his chums..
They saw that they were very definite in what they promised. They heard that they shouldn't listen to people who knew what they were talking about. They heard that all the experts knew less about the economy than the owners of the Daily Wail.
They looked at Nigel and saw he seemed like a nice used car salesman and over a third of them voted for national sepukku.
This was not a rational process. Every time they heard something worrying, they put their hands over their ears and said the mantra "Project Fear".
Only an idiot still believes in that 18th century idea "sovereignty". No countries are sovereign. A couple of failed states have come close, Somalia for example. Even North Korea does business with China. It may host a couple of embassies. I imagine that it does business with someone? It is not completely sovereign then. Some of the worlds biggest successes have their economies heavily affected by others, have lots of treaty obligations and are part of large trade groupings like the one that we are being undemocratically forced to leave.
"Sovereign nations do trade: they trade as sovereign nations ... You would fail GSCE politics" --- Dr Stephen Jones
When he says "No countries are sovereign" he clearly means in the (incorrect) sense frequently used by the Brexiteers desperate to "reclaim it" --- they seemed very often to use it to mean total independence from, if not absolute domination of, all other nations. Many of them ironically also seemed to think that the idea that T. May could not decide the terms of Brexit all on her own without reference to Parliament was also an affront to UK Parliamentary sovereignty when it was in fact the very opposite.
Obviously we all know that nations are sovereign in the proper sense of the word. But, unlike the vast majority of Brexiteers, we understand that treaties etc are, in a sense, a trade off of some sovereign power for some other advantage. Naturally we never lose the sovereign power itself, but we agree to be bound by certain conditions in exercising it. Because we actually never yield sovereignty, we can rip up those agreements if we choose (e.g. by invoking Article 50). But in the sense the word was mis-used by many Brexiteers ("we want our sovereignty back") he is absolutely correct that there are no sovereign nations.
The British voter looked at Europe, saw it was a massive mess, saw that it was impossible to get a better deal for the UK, and voted for sovereignty.
There wasn't a typical British voter to describe as "The British voter" since about half voted to remain and half voted to leave. I suppose you might just about get away with "The British voter was equivocal", but that is like describing your parents as hermaphrodites.
Those that voted to leave did so for many reasons, including immigration, lack of EU accountability, and that the NHS would get more money.
"Those that voted to leave did so for many reasons"
Of the Brexit voters that I know, most voted that way simply to stick a well-deserved two fingers up at the Westminster establishment, never expecting that Brexit would even come close to a majority. Some now regret having voted Brexit, as they see the current chaos and the possible consequences. This is a mixture of people in a mixture of areas (working age vs retired, rural vs city, etc). Only one person I know (retired, rural) was 'serious' about UKIP and "taking back control".
Anecdote .ne. evidence and all that.
Of the Brexit voters that I know, most voted that way simply to stick a well-deserved two fingers up at the Westminster establishment, never expecting that Brexit would even come close to a majority. Some now regret having voted Brexit
Out of four i have talked to at work, one did it because of that reason and thinks that it may have been a mistake, one did it to see what would happen and thinks they made a mistake, one did it because ending free movement of Europeans stops the Syrians from getting in and protects our borders and is still pro (I think), one did it to take our pride back (then again he also thought Trump was a great idea and that he will work with Putin to sort out Syria) and is definitely pro.
Oh and there is someone on my team who didn't bother to vote, thinks it's all hilarious people are pissed off at Brexit and that we are being silly complaining about losing value on the pound, then again he also doesn't trust mainstream news but will trust posters on reddit claiming to have worked for the FBI (they also are a Trump supporter).
The amount of lack of depth in thinking I have seen on Brexit is breathtaking, I can't help feeling that many people voted on nothing more than a byline.
During the campaign I challenged as many strongly expressed pro-Brexit opinions as I could, whenever I spotted them on social media or comments on online news articles. Any that responded, got another response from me. Anyone who then responded again got characterized on the basis of the most charitable reading of their two responses. Not totally objective, but at least quantitative. I got, of 956 2-time responders ...
"Morons" 905 94.7% People sticking to trivially stupid arguments or incorrect facts
"Feelers" 37 3.9% “I'm just going with my gut,” “everyone's entitled to an opinion” etc.
"Tryers" 14 1.5% Arguments I find unsatisfactory, but might have merit
"Challengers" 9 0.9% Arguments and facts I have to accept as valid
Of course they count given the closeness of the result. They might have abstained because they didn't like either option, they didn't believe the referendum campaigns, amongst other things.
Thanks for the advice about education, Dr Nick Riviera. I consider education lifelong so it's not really an insult. Hopefully there won't be too many cuts to adult education in post-Brexit Britain... except higher education of course. And probably any other kind of education due to plummeting tax receipts if the government wilfully persists with a plan of leaving both the EU and EEA/EFTA (the referendum only specified leaving the EU).
"Those that voted to leave did so for many reasons, including immigration, lack of EU accountability, and that the NHS would get more money."
Immigration: An issue spun by the press which appealed to racists. Of all the issues stated as influencing the Brexit vote this is the one that has legs, it's also the issue that the pro-Brexit politicans try to deny. "We're not a tiny bit racist, we just loathe people from Europe coming over here and doing the jobs that Brits won't do or can't do."
Lack of EU accountability: Fictional, the EU is held to account by MEPs, by Heads of State, by auditors, by independent research organisations and ultimately by the electorate.
NHS would get more money: A lie. Even the most pro-Brexit politicians now admit it was a lie.
"The British voter looked at Europe, saw it was a massive mess, saw that it was impossible to get a better deal for the UK, and voted for sovereignty"
Actually, close to half of British voters voted in the opposite.
Although currently a political mess, the basic idea of having the European community co-operate and act in harmony is a good one. Nearly half of British voters voted to be a part of this, despite many wanting to so something to sort out the mess.
Among those voting for the idea of the EU, there are many who have close ties to the Eurozone - families, businesses, education, research etc. Those in that position stand to have their lives severely messed up by withdrawal from the EU.
>and voted for sovereignty.
I call UKIP FUD.
For those who do not understand, parliament has always had the ultimate last say, but chosen not to exercise it
If they had really 'lost control' how could they ever remove the UK from the EU?
And leaving the EU, or whatever it is they decide they want, means they'll have even less control. The UK will have to toe the line on EU legislation if they want market access. And they will have absolutely no say in what those laws will be.
Regrettably, successive governments have blamed Europe for their own homemade disasters, never admitting how much influence the UK actually had in Europe (a lot), and that they were in part responsible. Hoist on their own petard methinks.
Now what was it someone said (if immigration is your concern) about the >50% of immigrants that come from outside the EU that your government has always had control of and actually done errr.... nothing about ?
Had control. Forgot to use it. And you trust them to make Brexit a success? Good luck with that.
I'm off to watch Trump throw more Crocs in the swamp.
The US and all other countries have to comply with EU regulations when the access the EU market. However they are free to make their own trade deals with other countries whereas the UK was not as a paying member of the EU market - nor could we import anything without applying EU tariffs.
This was a rational decision that prices in the uncertainty and short-term pain. The poll sponsored by Open Britain (a pro-EU campaign group) and cited in The Guardian (a pro-EU newspaper) was designed to produce the response it got. No surprise there.
Nah man we're all racists who can't do math or look at economic data that's what it is.
Either that or there's no positive case for staying in the EU, there's certainly no downside to leaving and a massive potential upside to to leaving.
In a world where UK exports to the EU are falling, exports to the rest of the world are increasing and we can can do trade deals with countries we want to rather than being blocked by the EU who doesn't want to trade with those countries because it hurts Germany are we going to stay or leave? That's right.
The European project isn't really for the UK. I don't really wish ill on the countries still in (if they ever rebuild the EU the way it should be built I'd be happy to vote for rejoining but right now it's a disaster with a huge democratic deficit which is why you hear EU professional chair sitters talking about populism = bad without stating how they'll rebalance the democratic deficit - which is easy by the way - you just swap the legal positions of the European Parliament and the Commission; Parliament decides law and the Commission should be checks and balances as opposed to how it is today) but it really is a protectionist disaster designed to keep the UK in check and flow cash on the macro level to Germany as opposed to what it was supposed to be for.
Not for nothing but it's going to be decades before people forget de Gaulle's attitude [problem].
More on topic: higher prices means a reduction on imports of things that we don't explicitly need there and then - so what.
"The European project isn't really for the UK."
Because Brits prefer making business with people from former colonies that we can pat on their little heads? And dealing with easily bribable officials from semi-democratic republics. Those damn Europeans who think they are our equals are not nice doing business with at all.
Well, let's step up the banana trade then.
It was easy for the majority of Brexiters to factor in the uncertainty and short-term pain. It worked like this "I'm in a low wage job or unemployed. They can't come after me for the money, I haven't got any. Someone else will have to pay for this. Someone else will pay for this. No skin off my nose."
Absolutely, but this would probably be the same idiots who voted Tory 'to make work pay' in the bloody-obvious-they-were-mistaken belief that benefits would go up, as would pay. Instead, to no surprise, benefits have been squeezed and in work payments have barely changed.
"They can't come after me for the money, I haven't got any. Someone else will have to pay for this. Someone else will pay for this. No skin off my nose."
Anyone who thinks things can't get any worse for them personally are in for a rude awakening!
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All I can do is quote the German finance minister: "Let's do a thought experiment. I have a cake, I eat the cake, do I still have the cake? Do not think so".
This really is an apposite analogy : a democratic referendum has advised to eat the cake and now must pass through the democractic tubes of digestion (upper and lower) and if digested the shining mess of Brixit will be deposited for the enjoyment of all.
The consequences will mean nothing to the political elite including Mr 'mines a pint' Farage.
But to the rest of us?
£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££
We will spend more every day
in things we buy,
in fuel for our cars
where we like to go on Holiday
etc
etc
etc
Does that sum up the consequences well enough to you?
I will have to suffer those consequences like everyone else but, I'd like to give the likes of Farage a good kicking for the lies he spread and continues to spread. You can add the editors of the Daily Mail and Express to that as well.
Interesting to see these two
Mail used to be a case of joking about it, not much changed there. Still a joke, obsessed with celebrities. Irrelevant I suppose.
But the Express, used to be an OK paper, a bit better than Mail and a bit obsessed with Princess Diana, but now, it is nothing but a hate rag, I feel dirty just seeing the headlines, same feeling as you get from a bad copy of the Sun. You get the feeling they want to line any non hard exit from EU people up against the wall and shoot them. What the hell went on there to turn it from OK (not good, not shit), straight past gutter and right into sewer press.
"What the hell went on there to turn it from OK (not good, not shit), straight past gutter and right into sewer press."
Their pornographer owner got the hump about being a social leper and decided to burn Britain down.
If you think the editorial stance is extreme, check the comments section on any brexit story.
The commentards on there think The Faily Express is still too "lefty liberal."
"I try to avoid both papers commentards as I do not want high blood pressure."
The other way round here. I now regularly visit the Daily Mail site to get an idea of how the other half of the country are being told how to think. V depressing, not just the political stuff but especially the obsession with vapid celebrities and scantily clad women. But then I'm one of those fossils who thinks newspapers should provide news, and leave it up to their readers to form opinions.
Hopefully Express will shut down soon, I do not know of any purchasers
I do, it's regularly bought by someone at work and left in the lunchroom. I keep getting the urge to edit it and correct its 'facts' but frankly there's just not enough time or space to do so.
I think the best one recently was when the judges made a court ruling against Theresa may being the sole arbiter of Brexit, it was compared to our darkest hour, the greatest threat to our democracy since the Nazi's swept across Europe, which considering it's general attitude to people who are too tanned, seems ironic.
It's owner.
One of the right-wing, billionaire elite...
I wish somebody would actually explain to me who the liberal elite actually are. Because strangely enough every time I see a member of the "elite" they are unequivocally right-wing, ultra-rich, lying, uncaring, gits busy kicking some tramp to death.
"It's something Johnny Foreigner says."
Sono arrabbiato con i Brexiters. Maleducati, presi in giro da una stampa fascista. Parlando ad alta voce le loro rimostranze che sono immaginario, nella migliore delle ipotesi, o da loro stessi.
Reine Idioten, die ein Land ruiniert haben, um ihre zerbrechlichen Egos zu besänftigen und ihre grundlegenden rassistischen Instinkte auszudrücken.
As other Johnny Foreigners say.
Ah, you speak of the new illiberal brexit elite!
Given the way they handled reality like it was the Mortal Enemy Of Men I think illiterate would be more accurate. Unless I look at what happened in the US it is hard to find a more cynical manipulation of media and people in the last few years, made worse because they got away with it. It's the political equivalent of a failure to stop after causing a grievous accident and being complimented on it.
I've been around quite a few years, but 2016 is winner by some margin of worst year ever. I would have added "but admittedly I'm not old enough to have experience WW 2", but my worry is that I may yet experience a WW 3 if this goes on. Removing a need for factual accuracy from a growing pool of idiots is akin to removing the damping rods from an active reactor: it will have consequences, and none of them good.
"I've been around quite a few years, but 2016 is winner by some margin of worst year ever."
I wonder the Queens Xmas speech will dare use the phrase "annus horiblus" or if she'll save that for next year when the consequences of he Article 50 announcement in March will be more apparent.
Or will she just stick two fingers up at the lot of us, declare a republic and bugger off to Canada?
But to the rest of us?
£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££
You realize it. I realize it. Most of the readership of this rag regardless on which side of the fence they are realize it.
Unfortunately, based on this (and several other polls) it looks like the majority of the voters actually believed the utter tripe fed to them by Mr FrogFace and Co that Britain as a country can have its cake and eat it too. They did not realize that the fat cats which sat on the Remain campaign board were not lying on this one.
Thus, regardless of how it ends up, it will not end up well.
By the way, someone on this thread said "happy not to have a Trump or a Le Pen". Dude, let me explain this to you - you will have Adam Sutler after the next election when the already disillusioned and broke masses which voted for BrExit get shafted on the actual meaning of BrExit. At least.
Let me explain it to you Voland:
We're leaving the EU.
You can cry into your beer all you like.
You can call people names - and "Mr FrogFace" is really imaginative.
You can whine about it until you are sick, then wipe your mouth and whine some more about lies.
But we're leaving the EU.
Let me explain it to you Voland:
We're leaving the EU.
You can cry into your beer all you like.
You can call people names - and "Mr FrogFace" is really imaginative.
You can whine about it until you are sick, then wipe your mouth and whine some more about lies.
But we're leaving the EU.
It's kinda sad that we can't put people like you on a separate island so that the rest can just carry on. Oh, hang on, we did. Twice, even. One set is now making a mess of the global economy and is soon directed by someone who can only be called "white" by colourblind people and whose hairdo will soon spawn cartoon series of its own, and we've only recently managed to beat the other lot again at rugby and cricket. Bummer.
It's already costing small IT businesses. I spend about £5K a year on hosting and domain charges, most of which are base-priced in USD or Euros, even if they're nominally a UK supplier and I pay in sterling. It's already putting my costs up by about £500 p.a. Thank you Mr Gove.
"It's already costing small IT businesses."
I feel your pain because I suffer it too. I get work across the several Euro countries. I estimate that Brexit cost me £10K in the first month after the referendum as a result of the collapse of the pound. The most recent business trip was a painful experience, with costs rocketing. Also our customers are already telling us that they will probably switch to suppliers within Europe starting from the declaration of article 50. We lost a huge contract within a week of the referendum because the body awarding the contract (which was for five years) "Didn't want the uncertainty of dealing with a company that may not be within the EU at the end of the contract."
Response from my MP? "Well you just need to develop contacts outside Europe." Gee, thanks, thirty years to build a business one bloody night of stupidity to start its decline and his response is to tell me to spend thirty years building it up from scratch again.
I feel your pain because I suffer it too. I get work across the several Euro countries. I estimate that Brexit cost me £10K
Yep supposed to be working next year abroad in a country tied to the USD rate, with the change in value of the pound I have lost about $6K on my exchange rate, which basically would have covered a fair bit of my living costs. It's been nice seeing the money I had been saving aside for it as well, suddenly become worth less.
"We lost a huge contract within a week of the referendum because the body awarding the contract (which was for five years) "Didn't want the uncertainty of dealing with a company that may not be within the EU at the end of the contract.""
I call bullshit, names or your lying! The fact that the £ is lower, immediately meant that they would be paying less for your service, which would have put you in e better position. Why lie on the internet? ..fucking pathetic!
"I call bullshit, names or your lying! The fact that the £ is lower, immediately meant that they would be paying less for your service, which would have put you in e better position. Why lie on the internet? ..fucking pathetic!"
^ I know that economic concepts might be difficult for Leave voters to comprehend but whereas a small devaluation might be useful, a wholesale crash in the value of the pound due to the Brexit vote is not. For example, that leads to significant rises in imported components, fuel, food and so on which then have an adverse knock on effect.
"I call bullshit, names or your lying! The fact that the £ is lower, immediately meant that they would be paying less for your service, which would have put you in e better position. Why lie on the internet? ..fucking pathetic!"
Who said I lost money on my service or that payment cost was the issue? I'm not alone in losing EU contract work, because the bodies concerned need assurances that the persons named in the contract are EU citizens and will be EU citizens at the end of the contract. The issue is not cost, the issue is EU membership, you know, the thing that the Brexiters are taking away?
Since you asked so nicely I'm happy to show you the details. All you have to do is to state here your real name, phone number and your real address and I'll hand-deliver a document to you and you can see who my clients are. I will of course be asking you to apologise for your insult also and you can do that to me in person.
Deal? It's only fair that if you want to see proprietary information that you should respond in like manner, like a civilised person, don't you agree?
Oh PS, "you're lying" and "put you in a better position" and you seem to inserting commas using a shotgun.
Consider opening a small office in somewhere like the Netherlands; pick a couple of nice-looking small towns and contact the local inward investment people - you will find they are already gearing up to offer some pretty good deals to UK companies.
Of course said office will need to be able to function without transferring customer data out of the EU.
"Consider opening a small office in somewhere like the Netherlands"
Please do come and join us here. Easy to do business, good connections to the rest of the world (excellent warehousing and distribution services), most people speak fairly good English, some of the larger banks' e-banking stuff is in English. Weather much the same as in the South of the UK. Lager much the same as in the UK :( but fortunately now a reasonable range of Belgian beers available :).. Some disadvantages: now that the economy has bounced back nicely the housing market is getting pretty tight and unemployment is fairly low (basically the same as in the UK) so recruiting staff might become an issue.
@H in The Hague
I'd generally agree with your comments about the Netherlands. Easy to get around on a bike (except against a stiff headwind) and easy to get to other countries. Easy to get hold of stuff and relatively easy to do business. If you come from the more northern reaches of the UK then you would probably notice the lack of any natural landscape as really there isn't any until you get down to the the Ardennes. Still, I have an affection for morning autumnal mists hanging over the polder landscape or storm clouds scudding across the low sky.
If I had to leave Norway then the Netherlands would be first choice for me. The UK will never be an option for me again there is no way I could hack living there any more. Maybe Canada if the Netherlands lurches further to the right but I doubt that North America could ever replace the cultural and linguistic diversity that is the EU.
Some disadvantages: now that the economy has bounced back nicely the housing market is getting pretty tight and unemployment is fairly low (basically the same as in the UK) so recruiting staff might become an issue.
That has two solutions:
(1) if you don't need an office in the business hubs you can go to quieter places. Especially if you employ people with families this may work out better.
(2) if you can solve the housing issue, you can also advertise across the border. The Flemish side of Belgium considers it culturally a challenge to speak as many languages as possible (whereas the other half speaks French. Even if they understand other languages), and the standard of their University education is quite high. What you should NOT do is set up shop in Belgium - if you add up the amount of strikes to the humongous amount of public holidays they have you end up with little time left to do any actual work (strikes have caused Belgium to lose a fortune of contracts to other countries, the unions really have done a number on the country).
"It's already putting my costs up by about £500 p.a. Thank you Mr Gove."
I'm sure that nice Mr Gove will recompense you, perhaps even reimbursing the losses you suffer because of his ill-explained "logic". (For Michael is an honourable man. So are they all, honourable men.)
On the other hand, maybe they can't afford to, what with £350m going into the NHS. What, that was a promise they cant deliver? No .. that cannot be .. Nigel is an honourable man (ok, now i have go clean up the vomit. At least with Corbyn I can disagree but see that he believes what he says, disagree though I do, at least he is vaguely honest in that way. Farage seems to me to be about as honest as Bernie Madoff)
Gove did mean well, but he failed. He is not evil, few are. Actually 95% of politicians are there to try to improve the world, 90% fail.
5% are there for reasons of power, not public service.
A few are idiots (Thornberry, Abbot)
Quite a few are lead by religious views (May, Farron, Owen Thingy)
There are a few dinosaurs (Corbyn)
A lot try and fail (Cameron, Clegg)
A small number are power hungry (Blair)
And a very small number are worth listening to (Clarke, Field)
Education, well it has been messed around with for years, a lot of it political dogma overcoming common sense.
I was at a streamed comprehensive, worked pretty well, my daughter a grammar (very good), boys an academy (OK). Now the left hate streaming and helping those of ability, the right support it.
"It's already costing small IT businesses. I spend about £5K a year on hosting and domain charges, most of which are base-priced in USD or Euros, even if they're nominally a UK supplier and I pay in sterling. It's already putting my costs up by about £500 p.a. Thank you Mr Gove."
Yep, it's all the fault of Boris, Gove, Dominic "Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies" Cummings and Matthew Elliott and their huge pack of Brexit lies, the most egregious of which was that all EU monies would henceforth go to funding the NHS.
It's not only the IT sector that's suffering from all those Leave lies. I know of people losing their jobs in manufacturing (essential components have become too expensive to import since the Brexit pound crash) and other people in the transport sector who now won't get a pay rise next year because of the cost of more expensive fuel.
"cheaper to produce in and export from the UK"
As a general rule of thumb, setting up a business, especially a complex one that actually does stuff rather than shuffles paper (virtual or otherwise), requires investment. Expanding a business in the UK likely requires investment in the UK.
Lots of delightful organisations in and around the City have helped and will help UK business move jobs and money abroad.
Suppose, for a moment, that it does become cheaper to produce in the UK (Let's ignore "cheaper than where", for now). Suppose some businessperson does want to "take back control", and bring back production as well.
OK, we like the idea, now we have to build something. Where's the investment going to come from to get the new/expanded business set up?
For most of the time since the 1960s, UK corporates have been on an anti-democratic "investment strike". The poster child of this movement would be GEC (and to a less extent, many of the CBI big name companies), which for decades refused to invest meaningfully in products, processes, and people (need some R+D, don't bother, we'll set up a joint venture with someone who already invested). Younger readers may not remember GEC. There's a reason for that.
Elsewhere, the UK energy supply industry is closer to collapse than it has ever been, but in recent years there's no finance for e.g. CCGT electricity, no finance for gas storage, definitely no finance for meaningful large scale energy efficiency, and we're reliant on the Chinese for financing (and then building) our next nuclear stations. Their return on investment will come in the form of a Chinese-built demonstration station (Bradwell).
I thought the City were supposed to be good at finance, what's up with this picture?
The joys of unrestrained free trade?
In other words, you import hosting and resell locally.
Why not buy locally? That's what devaluation is supposed to encourage.
And if your suppliers are billing in dollars, change supplier to one that bills in your own currency. About the only commodity you have to "import" is .com domain names :-)
Granted it's not pain-free, but when the cheese moves, you have to react. Business-as-usual is no longer on the table.
Down and down you go just like all past large colonizers, Italy, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine. Just look at Greece and Italy now, fundamentally broke, exactly the pattern for the UK . Lets go on, French Empire, German Empire, even the dear old US of A is having its problems, and of course Russia.
Soon there will be people scavenging in dustbins for food.....Oh that is right, they already are! Total reduction of employed people, the rich getting richer and the poor...well they will not be getting a car too soon, an increase in the prison population, racial tension or better. Look at the US. In part almost civil war, whites versus the rest!
It is coming to a road near you. You voted for it if you voted Brexit. You were lied to, the NHS does not get any of the savings, there will not be any, just a greater expense.
People did NOT do their own research, contact large companies etc. Companies like JCB who build around the world to avoid import duties are loving this. Cut back UK production and do it in Germany. Enjoy, by 2018 Xmas your costs will have increased by about 10 to 15% and your wage will not, but unemployment is set to go up in 2019 by about 10%.
Enjoy yourselves its better than you think,
poor England now ,is going down the Sink
The UK is done,
you haven't done the sum.
Enjoy yourself enjoy yourself,
Its the poor that will be done!
Having previously said that foreign higher education students will be counted as part of the immigration statistics, unlike many other countries, today it's announced that the number of visas for higher education students will be halved. So half of four and a half-billion in fees + accommodation + what they spend on goods and services (plus VAT) lost.
Nobody thinks higher education students are an immigration problem. They can't get a job and they pay for the NHS.
Utter stupidity and it's only because the dull-witted Tory party are scared shitless of the mob voting UKIP (which they will probably do anyway) and want to come out and say they could cut at least 150,000 a year off the figures.
They will fuck up the country.
Curious question, which T Msy has never answered.
The government over the last six years (Home Secretary T May) has had power to reduce the number of non-EU immigrants. Given their views, she obviously ensured that the numbers would fall significantly. In 20111 the number was 314K. That fell to 260K in 2012 and further to 248 in 2013. Good work Mrs May! Oh, hang on, what's this? In 2014 it went UP again to 287K, and has stayed roughly even since them (Source: Migration watch UK, estimates only as the government doesn't actually keep accurate figures!)
So basically the Tories talk a lot and do nothing (not that I'm saying they should cut the numbers, but lies and hypocrisy are not something I like)
And yes, including students makes even less sense as including transit passengers at Heathrow. Students are a benefit to the economy.
Don't be ridiculous. How can students, especially foreign students, be a benefit to anything?
At best they'll be lefty intellectuals, with their "learning" and "understanding" shit. At worst they'll stay in the country and "take jobs" away from solid British morons.
@ MJI
"UKIP to them is an extremist party, I expect many are looking at the Lib Dems now with interest."
I do find this interesting as UKIP have already pointed out they wouldnt have gone as far as May is shouting about and there would be none of this uncertainty nonsense either. Even in labour they seem to be expecting their (ex)supporters to move to libs or UKIP. It is amusing when the extremist party is the one offering a democratic choice and the norm is none. I wouldnt be shocked if UKIP gains from some of those centrist Conservatives, especially if May is or looks like she is pulling up the drawbridge.
I've voted Tory for years. I'm saddled with Jeremy Hunt as my MP.
I'll never vote for them again. So what choice do I have?
Labour? You gotta be joking with JC in charge. He is making them unelectable for at least the next 10-15 years.
UKIP? Very right wing and worse.
That leaves Green or Lib Dem.
The only hope to eject Jeremy in 2020 is to vote LibDem so that's what I'll be doing.
Sad fact of life here in 2016.
Why are "higher prices here to stay"?
Some IT companies like Microsoft have imposed price rises of over 20 per cent - far higher than can be justified. Others have not. Customers can (and should) move to the companies that price transparently like AWS. Give Microsoft the boot.
And as far as I know Farage does not own any tech companies and cannot be blamed for the profiteering. I would be very surprised if he condoned it.
It's too early to call it profiteering. As no-one wants monthly price increases (it palys hell with budgeting) M$ are just anticipating the next 12 months. And others are increasing prices by less than their increase in costs.
Here to stay? Well no, once we are out of the EU and the single market, and have tariff barriers to trade with every country in the world, the pound will then recover against the Euro and Yen and the sun will shine every day, and the government will issue everyone with a dozen perpetually renewed virgins (of the gender of their choice). Then prices will come down tto reflect the new exchange rate and then go up to reflect the tariffs. So, no, these prices are not permanent.
And maybe we don't blame Farage for the prifiteering, if there is any, but we can damn well blame him and his unpleasant chums for the crash in the currency.
>Here to stay? Well no, once we are out of the EU and the single market, and have tariff barriers to trade with every country in the world, the pound will then recover against the Euro and Yen
Probably true, the Japanese are actively pushing against a strong Yen and the Euro's future looks rocky. Nonetheless, the Pound will continue to weaken against the Dollar which is the issue here. Trump's win looks increasingly bad for those that put him in power, but his cabinet choices are sending a very positive message for the US global corp and banking elites. I don't share your optimism that suffering alone against a bullish US economy will be better than doing so within the larger union.
Devaluations are generally good for an economy, as they make exporters cheaper. That's why Labour devalued and why the economy grew so strongly after we left the ERM under Clarke. The pound was too high. There are several articles on here explaining why sterling was overvalued. When you have stopped crying you should try and read them.
"It's too early to call it profiteering."
Now you're apologising for IT customers being ripped off? Good work.
The Register has used the phrase "Brexploitation" several times, but now seems to have lost its bottle, and decided to go for a cheap shot against Farage instead.
Actually Labour devalued due to an economic crisis that turned out (years later) to have never existed - i.e. the government statistic du jour (probably balance of payments in those days) was discovered to have been wrong by several percentage points. Something to remember the next time someone quotes GDP to a tenth of a percent.
"Customers can (and should) move to the companies that price transparently like AWS. Give Microsoft the boot."
But although Microsoft might have increased prices more than AWS in this case, they still present a lower TCO for many cloud users.
See for instance http://www.rightscale.com/blog/cloud-cost-analysis/aws-vs-azure-vs-google-cloud-pricing-compute-instances
You pay more for your input materials. And due to reduced pool of workers available, and their increased food costs, have pay more to retain those that you can find to hire.
If you are lucky you make as much profit as before. But you are too busy filling in customs paperwork to have time to check.
>That means your company makes more profits and you earn higher wages.
The myth of trickle down. High profits benefit shareholders which in turn increases executive pay. Workers wages are determined by the minimum cost they can be hired at and retained with - the latter only when skill/experience is judged a sufficient factor. It's really quite simple.
Farage does not own any tech companies and cannot be blamed for the profiteering
I agree I am sure a former commodities broker did not manage to make any money out of this at all. Although TBH I think Farage's concern is more staying in the limelight.
Higher prices are here to stay. That means your company makes more profits and you earn higher wages. Still foreigners are rushing to buy cheap products Made in Britain.
Every manufacturing company I have worked with in the UK has bought components from abroad, and no a lot we cannot manufacture in the UK, especially raw materials before you ask. So if it costs more to make, who absorbs that cost?
My current company we used to be able to do IT work in Europe and easily hire contractors abroad, send some of our guys out there to make things go smoothly etc. Dunno if we are going to pick up ad hoc work like that so easily now, or what we will have to do to get one of our lot working in Europe, since I am sure that just putting someone on a plane quickly and sending them over to work wont be as easy.
I can add to that with a view from Pharma. we are a British firm selling chiefly into the British market. The 'magic' ingredient in our product (the active product ingredient) is made in Europe. We looked to see if we could get an alternative supplier in UK - have been quoted by a British company a stack of notes as tall as Boris-the-buffoon Johnson to develop a method to produce it. Not deliver a usable product but just to workup the method to produce the key ingredient.
Maybe they don't really want the work, or see us as an easy mark, but seems clear that costs of having the API made in UK is prohibitive.
Oh, and currently the API is turned into its final product form for us by European companies. Used to be by a British company but they all too often delivered it out-of-spec. Not going back there.
I don't know who this "Dr" Stephen Jones is, or whether he is a medical man or just another PhD, but I do know that he seems to have drunk a very strong cocktail made for him by Farage, Boris, Gove, Davis and the other Brexit liars. What is staggering is that someone who seems to be educated and able to argue coherently can simply ignore the facts that emerge every day to show that (a) the negative economic predictions of the Remain campaign are being reinforced daily [this thread is a good example of that] and (b) that the fantasies about how the UK can remain a successful trading nation by abandoning most of our trading deals overnight are just that - fantasies. It's disgusting that our MPs are so obsessed by party politics that they can't see their clear duty to stop the madness now, which a simple vote of no confidence could do in a moment.
And still we find fantasies in this forum like "Hopefully the pre-existing freedom of movement for UK citizens should still apply after any form of Brexit." No, eat your cake and it turns to s**t.
"I don't know who this "Dr" Stephen Jones is"
The "Dr." has his head up his derriere and talks nonsense on almost every subject. He's a climate change denier, right wing nut job etc. One suspects his doctorate has a much validity as those of Paul Nuttall and Gillian McKeith.
There is only one Dr Stephen Jones and he's a national treasure. The person posting here as "Stephen Jones" is clearly an egotist who needs to bolster his fragile ego by adding "Dr" to his nym. There are many people on these forums who have (proper) doctorates who don't feel the need to shout about them, because their academic qualifications are not relevant to the nature of discussions here and only an idiot attempts "argument by authority".
@ Yes Me
Have to wade in here-
"(a) the negative economic predictions of the Remain campaign are being reinforced daily [this thread is a good example of that]"
No really nope. The doom and gloom predicted after the referendum didnt appear. To the disappointment of some desperate to see us fail the doom predictions were a damp squib. But such bull had already lost any credibility from Cameron, Osborne, Obama, IMF and the EU that the punishment budget was lined up to cause the damage if we dare vote wrong (and was firmly put where the sun dont shine once the result was in). Toward the end of the campaign the remain arguments changed from lies to re-framing good news to bad news which has continued to much amusement.
"(b) that the fantasies about how the UK can remain a successful trading nation by abandoning most of our trading deals overnight are just that - fantasies."
And the world stops as the hellfire rises, and on and on. Apart from a few extremist leavers it seems to be more of a desire of the remain conversations to cut ourselves off from the world. By exiting the EU we are more free and able to trade and negotiate our own deals. Not a bad idea as the EU showed its negotiating capacity with canada and looked like idiots.
Once upon a time, maybe three decades ago, if I wanted to ship goods around Europe or UK<>Europe (as a buyer, a seller, or just to get stuff my company-owned stuff from one place to another, e.g. for a tradeshow) there was all kinds of paperwork to do, even for the simplest of stuff.
All that vanished when the UK joined the EU, because it was relatively easy for a customer in one EU to buy goods from a vendor in a different country, and most goods could be shipped around within the EU with no paperwork necessary. Single market, customs union, etc.
That benefit is about to go, no single market, no free movement of goods (or people), no largely-uniform pricing across the EU. The corporate vendors know that they can now return to their previously standard "rip off britain" practices because there will be little scope for easy cross-border trading within the EU.
But hey, we the people have made a well-informed democratic decision and as a result we the people have taken back control from those nasty foreigners. Mind you, nasty foreigners still own and/or control most stuff that matters in the UK, be it ARM (for techies), be it Sky (for TV and broadband and phone), be it the utilities in general, RollsRoyce (cars but not as yet jet engines), British Steel, etc.
Take back control indeed.
"At least the engine compartment was too short for a BMW engine, and the Ford engines too unreliable to use."
You clearly don't know your Jaaags.
The 2.0 V6 is a Ford Duratec engine.
The 2.5 V6 is a Ford Duratec engine.
The 3.0 V6 is a Ford Duratec engine.
The 2.0 diseasel is a Ford Duratorq engine.
The 2.2 diseasel is a Ford Duratorq engine.
The 2.7 V6 diseasel is a Ford AJD-V6 engine.
The 3.0 V6 diseasel is a Ford AJD-V6 engine.
BTW, you'll find that BMW engines are much less reliable than Ford engines. The 4.0V6 Cologne engine on my car was still in as-new condition at 500,000 miles. Ford and Toyota used to rank equal for reliability.
Known Ford engine troubles
2.7 V6 Diesel is unreliable (cranks ect). (In D3)
3.0 V6 Petrol eats little ends (in X Type, owner traded on quickly aftter being told it was common)
2.2 and 2.4 Transit Diseasels are unpleasant and not very long lasting. (In Defender, even TD5 more reliable and definately a nicer engine). Yes done LR experience.
As to BMW
BMW Diesels eat swirl control flaps, But smooth and quiet
That Cologne V6 BTW is underpowered, and not as nice as what GM used in their cars (Senator 3.0 6). - and the DOHC was not as nice as the 2.0 Family 2 either.
I would put GM way ahead on engines over Ford
Not nice, petrol engines as well, they would have been better off with resonance intakes than swirl flaps.
All the issues modern engines are getting is scary.
Then add in dual mass flywheels, the rush to fewer cylinders will also increase drive train shocks.Then the extended service intervals (this killed quite a few GM V6s).
Beancounters are also a serious threat with their penny pinching costing future owners hundreds of pounds. (GM valve seals, save pence, need replacing), my pet hate is plastic head dowels.
I also reckon dual clutch gearboxes will be a time bomb in a few years.
"I also reckon dual clutch gearboxes will be a time bomb in a few years."
VW DSG has a mighty stink already. They're replacing them like crazy. Yes, official solution is to replace £3000+ grindbox for a clutch failure, not to repair it. Lots of unofficial repair shops have surfaced to fill the void. China got wise and banned the whole sorry lot.
"That Cologne V6 BTW is underpowered, "
The 4x4 that it was in was as fast off the line as a Golf GTi, it was certainly a lot faster than any JLR product of the period and it was as stated reliable. Having a low BHP per litre meant unstressed and reliable.
BTW, you seem to have completely glossed over the fact that you claimed that the Jaguar did not use "unreliable" Ford engines and now you're saying not only does it use Ford engines but they are less reliable in JLR products than they are in Ford, Peugeot and Citroen products.
Well, if we're talking 4x4, the whole point of JLR kit wasn't how fast it was, it was that it could go basically anywhere, and pull anything while it was doing it (pulling the Land Cruiser round the Camel Trophy late 90s?). Until it became a vanity project and they killed the Defender because of.... something, I forget what ;)
Defender was killed because the design wasn't suited to being built by robot, and hence cost too much to build. No-one claimed it was a bad vehicle, or "too old" or anything like that, it just wasn't a very good business case economically.
On the topic of ford engines, I've always had good luck with them. My old scorpio was finally killed by gearbox troubles, but the engine was still running sweetly after 10 years. The even older Granada had done more than 250,000 miles when I sold it, and the engine was still on fine form (oddly enough that car had also needed a gearbox reconditioning). In my opinion what really brought Fords down was the quality of their electronics - some of the half-assed short cuts they took there were appalling.
Yes but what you did NOT say was that the peripherals like the computer, the injector manifolds, the intercoolers and the like have been cheapened. One only has to look at something like the injector pack for the ford, buy the Peugeot one for the same engine, its cheaper and better, now also go and change the computer and map it. The Engine may be a standard, but the badging is totally different. Also the niceties of the engine. Try the economy for example or the emissions after 3 years. It is the same with a Fiat or a Renault, they all have differing other bits.
As for BMW, the main reason for that, and I hate Badly Made Wagons, is that the maintenance is not carried out properly, and that most Fix Or Repair Daily are used by companies that maintain to a high standard.
Look at Fords after about 5 years, the emissions may make the car a write off.
What Brexit, and Trump, was about was about people who were worse off due to "Globalisation" (which it isn't by the way, globalisation has been around since at least the 1600's) but large numbers of people getting kicked to the curb by a small elite. I used to believe in "Globalization" when I thought it would lead to higher wages and better health, education, and environmental protection for everyone. But of course that doesn't happen. Instead you have poverty and exploitation, gutted health codes, crumbling infrastructure, massive illegal immigration (NAFTA sparked a huge immigration problem in the US), and destruction of the environment. All while wealth is concentrated into the hands of fewer people.
That is the real problem, everything else is just window dressing. Brexit, and election of Trump, as symptoms. Let's focus on the real problem shall we, and find a real solution.
"That is the real problem, everything else is just window dressing. Brexit, and election of Trump, as symptoms. Let's focus on the real problem shall we, and find a real solution."
We had a problem and the voters turned to Brexit. We now have two problems.
Let me clue you in, good ser. America, the USA, is a free country that is open for immigration to all. At least for the moment, and no wall, oops now it's a "fence", will stop this. Even when the so-called "illegals" cross the border, they are fine. We take them in, we give them health care, we give them a path to citizenship. Some orange-faced jackass is not going to be able to change anything because they life in a fantasy world. In four years time, it will be the same, and nothing much will have changed. The bulk of the people coming here just want a better life for themselves and their families, and to get better jobs. Very very few are here to make trouble. The idea that we should close our borders is an idea that is UnAmerican as the day is long.
The USA is a Nation of Immigrants. All the asshole, whining white people who happened to have immigrated here before are a clueless lot of sad morons who will still be stupid and poor in 2020.
I take this donny tramp and his shemale bitch with a grain of salt. They will show themselves for what they really are; criminals out of line their pockets with whatever they can steal from the White House and the government at large. For me, this is an opportunity to just charge 20% to 50% to companies that wish to hire me for IT services. That has already happened, my friends! And I'm still working at a "Blue company." When I smell torys (and I can actually smell them, they give off a distinct odor when moist or startled) I raise the rate and hold back on the services. Fuck 'em! The other opportunity is for a full-on hacking free-for-all come January 20, 2017. Don thinks hacking isnt' "real." How quaint! I, and many, many, many others will be showing him and his chick with a dick the real deal very soon. Secure your router, if you're in a Red State...
"when the pound finally recovers"
In June 2032, by my reckoning. tick-tock, tick-tock...
"I used to believe in "Globalization" when I thought it would lead to higher wages and better health, education, and environmental protection for everyone."
Actually it does, even if the MegaCorps don't like it. The standard of living in China has gone up significantly for at least 300 million people, dito for tens of millions in India and around South East Asia. Not based on numbers, just on seeing factories over there, working with people there, for about 60 trips in the last 15 years.And hearsay, from colleagues who spend about 5 months every year there. Not, for the record, in walled gardens (aka "expat communities").
Unless, of course, you mean "for me" when you say "for everyone". That's the point of Globalization. It's global. And on a global scale, pretty much everyone I know (and probably most of those who post here) are members of that "small elite".
Actually it does, even if the MegaCorps don't like it. The standard of living in China has gone up significantly for at least 300 million people, dito for tens of millions in India and around South East Asia. Not based on numbers, just on seeing factories over there, working with people there
Agreed
" I used to believe in "Globalization" when I thought it would lead to higher wages and better health, education, and environmental protection for everyone. But of course that doesn't happen."
The solution is to colonise more, enslave more, and steal more (and kill a bit more in the process).
That way we can maintain our superiority and shy away from the terrible globalisation that means that people in foreign places also get improved standard (which we obviously don't give a sh*t about).
No. "Globalisation" did not exist until 1958.
Prior to that date, worldwide bulk generic containerisation did not exist.
Shipping stuff around the world was expensive and slow, so there were insurmountable trade barriers for low-value, high-volume products.
It was the release into the public domain of what became the ISO container that allowed for the huge mega-ships that can ship you 40 tons of stuff from anywhere to anywhere for about $500. And is why you can buy a manufactured item in a pound shop for less than the cost (here) of the raw materials.
Unrestricted importing like this, of both goods and labour, causes the importing economies to be full of customers but not employees.
All hail the Moron's Messiah.
"The fastest growing economies in the world are outside the EU."
Indeed. Last time I checked, the fastest growing economy in the world was Cote D'Ivoire, GDP 32 billion dollars.
"We will trade with the commonwealth."
Following the second world war, likewise, Britain expected to trade with the commonwealth. The commonwealth wasn't interested and decided, instead, to trade with their nearer and better suited neighbours. The empire is gone and, without it, there's no obligation on the commonwealth to trade with us except if our economic interests align.
"Outside the EU we'll have no red tape."
One, if we want to trade with the EU all our exports there will have to conform with the European rules. Two, if we get rid of employment protections and things like environmental regulations and product safety, more fool us (and if, as people claim, it's "not about money", why on earth would we do this anyway?). Three, if we leave the customs union we've just added a motherlode of red tape every time anyone wants to sell something to the single market.
"The rest of the world will want free trade deals with us."
We already trade with those parts of the rest of the world that are prepared to trade with us and are worth trading with. The remainder are either protectionist in whole or in part (good luck selling services to India) or simply too small to bother with. And, in any event, why would a country be desperate to sign a trade deal with the UK, population 60 million GDP less than 3 trillion, when it wouldn't with the EU, population 450 million GDP 13 trillion?
"Indeed. Last time I checked, the fastest growing economy in the world was Cote D'Ivoire, GDP 32 billion dollars."
Impressive. Isnt the EU still trying to make deals with China, India, the rest of the growing world?
"The empire is gone and, without it, there's no obligation on the commonwealth to trade with us except if our economic interests align."
The good news being that as soon as we voted leave the doom prophecy was proven wrong and people suddenly came asking for trade deals as soon as we are out. Including China if I remember right.
"One, if we want to trade with the EU all our exports there will have to conform with the European rules"
And anyone trading with them already does. But the rest (majority) wont have to. Reducing the number of rules and regulations on our own businesses. Hell the EU even dictates what can be called jam the nutters.
"Two, if we get rid of employment protections and things like environmental regulations and product safety, more fool us"
Things we did before and apparently provided a lot of the inspiration for the current rules.
" Three, if we leave the customs union we've just added a motherlode of red tape every time anyone wants to sell something to the single market."
And of course nobody outside the EU trades with them. Except all those that do. Even when the EU cant even agree on a trade deal (or take forever doing what they claim to be their competence).
"We already trade with those parts of the rest of the world that are prepared to trade with us and are worth trading with. The remainder are either protectionist in whole or in part (good luck selling services to India) or simply too small to bother with."
This is interesting as a comment. The EU cartel (that is what it is) imposes high tariffs because it is protectionist and so locks out countries which provide better or cheaper goods. While the remain campaign cried that food prices would rocket there was confusion as the prices would actually fall. By not imposing high tariffs to protect EU countries we could be better off by rejecting the cartel and protectionism.
"And, in any event, why would a country be desperate to sign a trade deal with the UK, population 60 million GDP less than 3 trillion, when it wouldn't with the EU, population 450 million GDP 13 trillion?"
Go ahead and ask them. The ones asking us for trade deals that it. Even offering us negotiators to help get us out of the EU sooner.
"The good news being that as soon as we voted leave the doom prophecy was proven wrong and people suddenly came asking for trade deals as soon as we are out. Including China if I remember right"
I'm sure China is interested in a deal. Come on down China! And they will. In the same way the Assyrian came down (like the wolf on the fold). Or opening up trading, like Temüjin wanted to set up a "distribution centre" on the Black Sea.
"The good news being that as soon as we voted leave the doom prophecy was proven wrong and people suddenly came asking for trade deals as soon as we are out. Including China if I remember right."
You don't remember right.
Grease ball Phillip Hammond crawled over to China on his belly to beg for a trade deal. Theresa May scuppered his efforts by putting a block on Chinese investment in Hinckley Point and making it clear she doesn't trust the Chinese. The Chinese make it clear that they see trade as one way... they will sell us stuff.
A: "Theresa May scuppered his efforts by putting a block on Chinese investment in Hinckley Point and making it clear she doesn't trust the Chinese."
B: "That must be some alternate reality where Hinckley Point C isn't going ahead."
I think it's the Theresa May reality where she knows what makes sense for the public and says very publically that she'll do it (e.g. no to Chinese involvement in Hinckley Point, yes to worker representatives on corporate boards) and then shortly afterwards with rather less publicity a minion reveals that Ms May may have been mis-speaking, and that we'll continue with business as usual (paraphrased).
Theresa May scuppered his efforts by putting a block on Chinese investment in Hinckley Point and making it clear she doesn't trust the Chinese.
That must be some alternate reality where Hinckley Point C isn't going ahead.
No, it's this reality where May announced that she would "review" Chinese involvement in the programme. It's well known that she hates the idea of Chinese involvement - the Chinese are particularly aware of this. However once she announced her "review" irritating the living crap out of the Chinese government at the time of Hammond's kow-towing in Beijing the Chinese proceeded to blackmail exert diplomatic pressure to get her to remove her derriere from the pot without shitting in it first.
As documented here: China threatens Theresa May
That widely reported threat was in the Spectator in August 2016.
By September 2016, May had unsurprisingly come around, and the Chinese had got what they wanted, though this wasn't quite so widely covered, and may not immediately have reached the Spectator and its readers. This from the FT on 15 Sep:
"UK gives go-ahead for 'revised' £18bn Hinkley Point plant
Theresa May has given the go-ahead to the £18bn Hinkley Point power plant under a revised agreement that has been welcomed by the French developer and Chinese state-owned investor behind Europe’s biggest energy project.
The UK prime minister gave her assent on Thursday to build Britain’s first new nuclear plant in a generation, but has attached conditions that give it the right to block utility company EDF from selling its stake in the project during construction."
Downing Street also said the government would take a “special share” in all future nuclear new-build projects including a proposed reactor at Bradwell in Essex being developed by China’s state company CGN. CGN is one of the investors in Hinkley Point. [continues]"
https://www.ft.com/content/466704e6-7a4b-11e6-b837-eb4b4333ee43
Hell the EU even dictates what can be called jam the nutters.
You're right we should let the food manufacturers have no regulation on the labelling of food. Thats going to work brilliantly.
"Two, if we get rid of employment protections and things like environmental regulations and product safety, more fool us"
Things we did before and apparently provided a lot of the inspiration for the current rules.
Hi I'd like you to meet our current goverment...
"The good news being that as soon as we voted leave the doom prophecy was proven wrong and people suddenly came asking for trade deals as soon as we are out. Including China if I remember right."
Uk.gov brexiteers were out offering potential trade deals even before the vote.
India was being offered visa free travel to the UK by a desperate Minister for Employment citing there'd be more space for Indian migrants after brexit!
That'll go down well with the brexit voting English public. Just like the fake "Hordes of Turks" story did.
@ Dr_N
"Uk.gov brexiteers were out offering potential trade deals even before the vote."
Well that at least suppers the argument that leave had no plan. And its pretty good to know that after giving the responsibility of trade to the EU that we have the skills here to go get em ourselves.
"That'll go down well with the brexit voting English public. Just like the fake "Hordes of Turks" story did."
I hear Austria is arguing Turkeys EU membership talks should be stopped. Doesnt sound like they have much support for that though.
@ Dr_N
"That you think Priti Patel is some kind if ace UK trade deal negociator."
I would love to see you quote where I say that. At all. And I see your still having difficulty writing my name. Someone responding to one of my previous posts claimed that invalidated the entire post. Personally I just see it as an opportunity to mention ctrl-C and ctrl-V.
"Or that countries are lining up to do the UK some massive favour. Name them if so."
What are you on about massive favour? We all trade because its in our own favour and deals can be done much quicker with 1 country than with every member of the EU. But New Zealand did offer us their negotiators to get out of the EU. As for lining up there was China, Australia I think India mentioned something and a few others. And while Obama talked about us at the back of the Queue the noises of those behind him seemed to disagree. Off the top of my head.
"The empire is gone and, without it, there's no obligation on the commonwealth"
We have many many immigrants originally from the Commonwealth now here. I think there will be much desire to trade with the UK in those countries...
Before we were sometimes seen as the colonial oppressor, but I think that perception has now largely faded.
I don't agree with the last point:
"why would a country be desperate to sign a trade deal with the UK, population 60 million GDP less than 3 trillion, when it wouldn't with the EU, population 450 million GDP 13 trillion?"
Negotiating a deal with the UK would involve aligning the interest of that country and the UK alone; difficult but not impossible. Negotiating a deal with the EU would involve aligning the interests of that country with 28 (once the UK has left) different EU member states and hoping that none of them derail the process along the way. For a description of what that's like you could ask Canada.
Countries will also want to make deals with the UK whilst it's desperate for trade wherever it can get it. The UK will either have to accept the shitty end of the stick in these trade talks or carry on getting slapped around with tariffs. In other words the UK has just volunteered to be the small kid that everyone else picks on in the playground.
Brexit means Fuxit.
"The UK will either have to accept the shitty end of the stick in these trade talks or carry on getting slapped around with tariffs. In other words the UK has just volunteered to be the small kid that everyone else picks on in the playground."
It is much easier to strike a deal 1:1 with a major trading nation then wait for Walloonia to get its clog subsidies in place. China India and the US are all lined up. The UK will no longer be so dependent on a sinking continent
And you forget the only thing that matters: Germany needs to export to the UK. Their auto industry will be rioting if the EU insists on tariffs. I'm getting the popcorn in.
I am glad you are not in charge of anything important.
"And you forget the only thing that matters: Germany needs to export to the UK. Their auto industry will be rioting if the EU insists on tariffs."
Hi Govey!
You're flat wrong by the way. Politics will trump economics - the EU will not give us tariff free access unless we accept the four freedoms and that is that. They cannot give us a special deal as it will encourage others trying it on.
>And you forget the only thing that matters: Germany needs to export to the UK. Their auto industry will be rioting if the EU insists on tariffs.
You massively underestimate Germany's capacity to adapt - West Germany took a 3 trillion Euro hit when it welcomed East Germany at unification and did so, broadly speaking, happily. Secondly German cars are an expensive, status option - they might reduce their prices a little, but UK consumers will pay a larger premium or maybe just keep cars a couple of months longer before upgrade. Thirdly the German manufacturers, notably VAG, are currently absorbing fines and other costs post-emissions fraud which dwarf potential tariffs.
>I'm getting the popcorn in.
You'll notice a 20% price hike if it's Joe & Seph's - sugar import cost up 10% and butter's up 50p a kilo too since October.
I did see on Twatter that Daniel Hannan the MEP had shipped himself off to Colombia to flog some "innovative jams" or whatever we have to offer.
The sad reality is that we don't set the world on fire with physical goods production and what we do build like cars, steel, chips etc are primarily foreign owned and ultimately can be relocated.
Most of our "exports" are service based and again are easily movable.
Our food production is driven by low skilled EU migration and again the larger food producing agro industries can move to fields in mainland Europe as we don't have any unique climate crops.
Apparently according to UKIP's Suzanne Evens we have some massive trade advantage as we buy lots of stuff, I get the feeling she, like many kippers doesn't understand how global trade actually works or how the UK economy is so dependent on easily movable businesses.
So its not just tech thats rising in price, food and energy is as well.
Well said!
"Our food production is driven by low skilled EU migration"
That's my favorite part, just like the immigrant Mexican people here in California (the 6th largest economy in the world. we say fuck you, Mr. Tramp) there is no other way around it. You NEED these low level workers, you need them BADLY. Why? Because who's going to fill their places? You? (not you, nsld) Your kids? HA! I'm sure my daughter will be complete shit at picking strawberries, with a hair brush in one hand and an iPhone in the other. Face it, people, the immigrants of the world are a nice source of cheap labor, and locking them out leaves you in the dirt. Literally.
So, get out of the fucking EU already, Blighty! Strap on your boots, and get out there and harvest some crops for Queen and Country! Or starve, either way, the world is laughing AT you, not WITH you.
We'll deal with the conspiracy president and his hermaphrodite companion. You'll see.
"Life is getting more expensive for Brits since the EU referendum heaped a whole load of uncertainty onto the economy."
And that's just one form of uncertainty. Mrs H has decided to leave the sunny South of England and join me here in The Hague and look for a job while she can under freedom of movement.
I'm just off the phone with a chat with one of my oldest friends, Miss F of London - a Leave voter, who claimed that we shouldn't worry as Brits would never have any problems moving to the rest of Europe. When I suggested that surely any UK limits on immigration would be reciprocated on this side of the North Sea Miss F's response was basically "pooh-pooh". I'm just staggered. Sorry if this is incoherent, but I'm just stunned that someone can vote that way and then claim it won't have any impact?!?!?
@H in the Hague
But she knows we're British don't cha kno? Johnny Foreigner, strange cove, talks gibberish, knows what side his bread is buttered what! He'll let his betters in or we won't buy an Audi every 8 years.
The old Queen Mum, Gawd bless 'er. won us the war she did. Hosted knees ups in the Blitz rubble by day, Flew a Beaufighter by night. 8 confirmed kills. Neeeeeowwwwwww, dagga dagga dagga, take that Huns!
Rule Britannia etc........................................(fades off into the distance in an apt metaphor for British economic prosperity)
"The old Queen Mum, Gawd bless 'er. won us the war she did. Hosted knees ups in the Blitz rubble by day, Flew a Beaufighter by night. 8 confirmed kills. Neeeeeowwwwwww, dagga dagga dagga, take that Huns!"
Sounds just like Boris! Thanks for the laugh.
We don't win by digging in against huge odds and having a bit of a go.Indeed not. That isn't how we survived in 1940, either: we ran out of cash and were saved by being lent the stuff we needed (like food and guns) by the USA. And we only got out of economic dependency on the USA in the 1970s... after we joined the Common Market. I don't think the USA will lend us the stuff we need (like food and iPhones) when we run out of cash in 2020.
Paris, because she's crying for us.
Oddly enough, Lidl do a very good job with their wine selection.
If we're talking austerity the cost of champagne is neither here nor there, it's not going to make a significant difference to your cost of living unless you have very questionable priorities when setting your household budget. In any case, the people being kicked in the balls by austerity aren't moaning about the cost of champagne, they've got far more important things to worry about.
Housing costs are crippling, NHS services are being pushed to the point of failure, benefits (both in and out of work) are being slashed left right and centre. And despite this we've got an electorate which is making decisions which will pile on yet more costs, and likely lead to falling tax receipts as well. With a Tory government at the helm that means yet more austerity to come. Probably not what most voters in the North of England had in mind, but they've made their bed now.
It's exactly the same scenario we've put up with for years. These firms think we can't work out the sodding prices others are paying using the exchange rates. Utter bastards, the lot of 'em. The only people worse off are the Irish, who get the same shafting while these multinationals bum off their lower corporation tax as a gateway into Europe.
Brexit be damned, it's just a poor bloody excuse to make an already obscene price differential worse.
/rant off
"The only people worse off are the Irish, who get the same shafting while these multinationals bum off their lower corporation tax as a gateway into Europe."
Not that one again? Ireland sets its corporation tax for the best outcome for Ireland. Low corporation tax strategy is one the works for countries with a relatively small local tax base. It brings in far more tax overall than a high tax strategy would and means that the local tax base is at a competitive advantage by sharing the low tax rates.
"El Reg asked UKIP, whose leader has discussed Brexit for years, what advice he'd impart to the British"
Obviously, if you want to have leaders like Boris and May in back-taken control, with Farage on the sideline, you will have to make some personal sacrifices. It's well worth it, I'm sure!
Taking back control was as much about the unelected b/crats in Brussels dictating to us the Brits what they want us to do as about limiting immigration and removing our right to self determination.
Im an independent sod, have always survived or fallen by my own efforts and thought to my self what price am I prepared to pay to keep my country's democratic freedoms?
especially since there were many hundreds of thousands of our kinfolk who paid the ultimate price so that we could choose our own future!!
to think otherwise is a betrayal of their memory.
so what price am I prepared to pay?
Id be happy to take a fall in my pension to keep my freedom.
I also have faith in our innate ability to make good out of adversity.
If we have a hard brexit and fall back on the WT customs rates well still be better off than staying in the EU.
The "Leave" movement was basically like a sullen teenager who has decided that he wants to divorce his parents because they keep insisting for him to say "Please" and "Thank you", and yelling at him to get a shower or tidy up his bedroom. What he has failed to think through is that after the split, he probably will still have to say "Please", "Thank you" and maintain some semblance of hygiene around other adults. And he probably won't be able to borrow the car, or a ton out of Mum's purse, anytime he pleases anymore.
The only thing I'm surprised about is whose decision it ultimately was for Britain to leave the EU. I was fully expecting us to get kicked out, as opposed to walking out .....
@ JulieM
That is an interesting comparison since the sullen teenagers I know of were all for the EU and really disliked the idea of leaving the house and joining the world (as with your analogy). And the tantrums after! You would have thought if they cared so much they would have voted remain in the referendum instead of not turning out.
I was hoping we could be thrown out when Cameron abandoned his promise to do as he was told or even to stick around as he also promised. In fact even now as the anti democracy attempts are being made with claims of the 48% somehow being in the right or other childish claims it would be nice if the EU would cut us free. Instead I keep hearing how they want us to remain and will do what they can to make leaving look worse than remaining.
@ John Brown (no body)
"I think that's more about frightening off anyone else thinking of leaving rather than trying to get us to stay."
Extremely probable since the warm and friendly EU have admitted as much. But the offers to remain do seem pretty desperate since they know 52% of the population would prefer to leave and thats after all the rigging and direct threats.
Extremely probable since the warm and friendly EU have admitted as much. But the offers to remain do seem pretty desperate since they know 52% of the population would prefer to leave and thats after all the rigging and direct threats.
No. That was the percentage of people who turned out to vote, not of the population. Not that it makes difference in the outcome, but is an important distinction.
The retail cost of digital print has been underpriced for years; Independent resellers cannot compete because they cannot even buy the toner for the price that the likes of KM and Xerox charge for a click. I for one welcome this news and look forward to a much more prosperous year for our company.
There used to be good profit in IT, but that has all gone now thanks to cheap imports. If the cost of imports goes up then people will keep equipment for longer and have it serviced rather than keep going out and buying new and throwing perfectly good equipment away because it is cheaper to buy a new one than it is to replace the print copy cartridge.
I look forward to being able to be competitive in the years to come rather than being undercut by the concessionaires at every turn; And if you don't like it then there are another 27 countries that you can go and live in.
Hi all, the lies told to you are going to come back and bite, Those that were silly enough to want brexit are either politicians or of a lower intellect. If you could not see it coming then you are not a politician. It will pan out like this. For a new car going to the EEC there will be a tax, about 5-10%. That will be paid for by the UK buyers. This will increase the cost of a new car by about 15%, parts also will go up. Other items may only incur a lower tax, possibly about 3-5% guess who will be paying that, for example electronic programs etc..So that will be added to the UK item cost to stop the items increasing in the EU. Now add that to things like UK cars having to comply with EU laws, if not they will not be allowed into Europe, not even on holiday. Now, stuff coming to the UK may need to pay an exportation tax, especially food stuffs. That already happens to stuff like fresh fruit from African countries. There will almost certainly be a tax on planes coming from or going to the UK, guess who will be paying that.For instance coal from Germany.
So people happy xmas and do remember some price increases will hit immediately article 50 is signed but the rest will hit when you depart. An approximation of unemployment increase about 2% but with a rising amount. This will not happen immediately as there needs to be built the large complex for incoming stuff at ports especially Dover and the complex at Calais is now earmarked for both housing and factories.
Enjoy! That is exactly what those who cannot see voted for, not the majority, many thousands were blocked from voting.
Hi all, the lies told to you are going to come back and bite, Those that were silly enough to want brexit are either politicians or of a lower intellect. If you could not see it coming then you are not a politician. It will pan out like this. For a new car going to the EEC there will be a tax, about 5-10%. That will be paid for by the UK buyers. This will increase the cost of a new car by about 15%, parts also will go up. Other items may only incur a lower tax, possibly about 3-5% guess who will be paying that, for example electronic programs etc..So that will be added to the UK item cost to stop the items increasing in the EU. Now add that to things like UK cars having to comply with EU laws, if not they will not be allowed into Europe, not even on holiday. Now, stuff coming to the UK may need to pay an exportation tax, especially food stuffs. That already happens to stuff like fresh fruit from African countries. There will almost certainly be a tax on planes coming from or going to the UK, guess who will be paying that.For instance coal from Germany.
So people happy xmas and do remember some price increases will hit immediately article 50 is signed but the rest will hit when you depart. An approximation of unemployment increase about 2% but with a rising amount. This will not happen immediately as there needs to be built the large complex for incoming stuff at ports especially Dover and the complex at Calais is now earmarked for both housing and factories.
Enjoy! That is exactly what those who cannot see voted for, not the majority, many thousands were blocked from voting.
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