back to article Donald Trump confirms TPP to be dumped, visa program probed

United States president-elect Donald Trump has released a statement outlining the things he plans to do in his first 100 days in office, three of which will impact the technology industries. In the video, Trump re-states his policy to create a new cyber-defence plan for America. “I will ask the Department of Defence and the …

  1. Ole Juul

    this is good

    Now we (non-USA countries) will be able to negotiate in a transparent manner. Also, we will be able to do it as partners rather than from a defensive position.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: this is good

      Now we (non-USA countries) will be able to negotiate in a transparent manner. Also, we will be able to do it as partners rather than from a defensive position.

      Not so fast. Let's not forget that OUR respective governments (and Brussels) engaged in this too without asking much in the way of input from citizens (hence the furore when it finally leaked). I agree with you that it's good news in that they can now try again amongst themselves, but it's also time to remind them that democracy doesn't mean 5 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner..

  2. cyke1

    oh yea..

    H-1B visa program needs to be looked at bad. It was ment to be a way for companies to get workers if there wasn't enough to fill the need of the job. It has turned in to a way for companies to fire American workers and bring in cheap labor at the expense of the American worker that has to train the cheap labor how to do their job. Just like a lot of law's that got abused and this is 1 law should be canned.

    1. DavCrav

      Re: oh yea..

      [O]h yea[h]..

      H-1B visa program needs to be looked at bad[ly]. It was me[a]nt to be a way for companies to get workers if there [were not] enough to fill the need of the job. It has turned [into] a way for companies to fire American workers and bring in cheap labor at the expense of the American worker[, who] has to train the cheap labor how to do their job. Just like a lot of [laws] that [have been] abused[,] and this is [one] law [that] should be canned.

      Corrections are given in []. It has often been posited that better education would be how Western economies differentiated themselves from those with a cheaper workforce. Some work still needed in that respect, evidently.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: oh yea..

        @DavCrav - I'm tempted to vote you down, but decided not to as your point is potentially valid even though the way you delivered it was not.

        It is important to remember that English is a second language for many people. I worked for many years in a very large office building where our workforce included people from 94 sovereign states. It was part of our culture to accept that smart people from diverse backgrounds can bring skills that more than compensate for "second language" level written English. It worked. As long as emails and internal documents were readable and their intent was clear, spelling and grammar were of very little concern.

        1. WatAWorld

          Re: oh yea..

          Our tolerance for those who speak and write English as a second language is probably why English took over from French as the world's lingua franca.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: oh yea..

            I assumed it was Britain and US merchants forcing their noses in everywhere Shanghai, Yokohama, Phillipines.

            That and that English functions fairly well as a language even when the syntax and verbs are not followed "correctly" up by a non-native speaker.

          2. DavCrav

            Re: oh yea..

            "Our tolerance for those who speak and write English as a second language is probably why English took over from French as the world's lingua franca."

            I don't know about the US, but in Europe I find that non-native speakers frequently have a better standard of English than most natives.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: oh yea..

            > is probably why English took over from French as the world's lingua franca.

            There is the wee matter of two World Wars as well (and previously, a few smaller ones in far-flung places where either the British Empire or the US came out on top).

          4. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

            Re: oh yea..

            why English took over from French as the world's lingua franca

            I think the fact that the two largest military and commercial superpowers for a lot of last century (British Empire and the US) were English-speaking has a lot more to do with it.

        2. DavCrav

          Re: oh yea..

          "It is important to remember that English is a second language for many people. I worked for many years in a very large office building where our workforce included people from 94 sovereign states. It was part of our culture to accept that smart people from diverse backgrounds can bring skills that more than compensate for "second language" level written English. It worked. As long as emails and internal documents were readable and their intent was clear, spelling and grammar were of very little concern."

          1) The mistakes that were made don't appear to be those of an educated but non-native speaker: irregular capitalizations, missing demonstrative pronouns, and so on are the errors here, whereas for example a Slavic background would find missing or misplaced articles (errors like 'we need the jobs', for example), those with European languages would not remove demonstrative pronouns like 'that', or misspell 'meant'.

          2) I would guess that it is highly unlikely that someone railing against the H1-B scheme is himself a skilled immigrant.

          3) Regardless of the background of the person, badly spelled and ungrammatical comments look really bad when placed in front of a potential employer, at least if that employer can themselves spell. (I was in a bar yesterday and on the 'Help Wanted' advertisement in the bathrooms, helpful patrons had made five corrections to the spelling and punctuation.) Good grammar and good diction are significant factors in employability.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: oh yea..

            > I would guess that it is highly unlikely that someone railing against the H1-B scheme is himself a skilled immigrant.

            Well, it's one way to stem the competition.

        3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

          Re: oh yea..

          It is important to remember that English is a second language for many people.

          You sorely missed @DavCrav's point.

          The original poster pretended to be an American worker. With all due respect, if he has _THAT_ level of English he should be replaced. Like it or not English is the standard technical communications language in 90% of the world. If you are _THAT_ illiterate you have no right to complain that someone more literate than you has taken your job using a program which is supposed to bring QUALIFIED labor

          Now, does that program bring in QUALIFIED labour - that is an entirely different story.

        4. Kernel

          Re: oh yea..

          "@DavCrav - I'm tempted to vote you down, but decided not to as your point is potentially valid even though the way you delivered it was not."

          My reading of the content of the original comment lead me to believe that the OP was one of the 'displaced' US workers that would be able to get a job if only the evil H-1B visas didn't exist, in which case I'd have expected a much higher standard of English out of the box.

          However, despite DavCrav's enthusiasm for correct English, he totally failed to detect that labo[u]r was spelt wrong in the original comment. :)

          1. Public Citizen

            Re: oh yea..

            "Spelt wrong" depends on which side of "the pond" you are on.

            There are quite a number of differences between the American spelling of certain words and the way the same word is spelled in the portions of the world that adopted the English Language due to the influences of the British Empire.

            As a Linux user I have a spell checker that regularly tries to "correct" my spelling by using the British Standard spelling instead of the American Standard spelling where there is a difference. It seems that the British spelling sometimes includes extra vowels that when sounded out lead to a slightly different pronunciation or are treated as silent and therefore viewed as superfluous.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: oh yea..

              I understood what was written. Pedantic corrections were unnecessary grandstanding.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: oh yea..

                Disagree - in IT, especially, where a misspelling or one wrong letter can lead to things not working pedantic correctness is sometimes essential. Now some careers don't really need grammatical writing -the police comes to mind...well grammatical writing would help, but you do see an awful lot of terrible writing/spelling on police forums- but in IT precision is often very important.

                The OP was writing as if s/he were one of the qualified local workers being displaced by foreign workers...it's possibly true but that level of literacy is going to disqualify you for a lot too. The corrections were possibly a sarcastic way of pointing this out; but it's equally possible that the corrections were fixing it because it needed fixing...IT does attract a lot of that type. In a profession where a comma instead of a full stop can bring everything grinding to a halt it's understandable.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: oh yea..

                > I understood what was written.

                The "pedantic" corrections were conveniently used to illustrate a point. Did you understand that, too?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: oh yea..

                  To attempt to prove a point by trying to correlate unrelated things. Most people use shorthand and casual language when in a forum such as the reg it is not a place where the average person would revert to full prose.

                  So by attempting to be a language elitist to make a point the point merely reinforced that the person trying to make a point was out of touch with how most people use language. By being patronizing you lose the battle by disengaging the audience.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: oh yea..

                    So by attempting to be a language elitist to make a point the point merely reinforced that the person trying to make a point was out of touch with how most people use language. By being patronizing you lose the battle by disengaging the audience.

                    Again, disagree. Many places you would be correct; but this is The Reg - an IT publication. IT tends to attract the type of people who dot 'i's and cross 't's and you will find that grammar nazis are fairly thick on the ground around these parts....there's even a dedicated forum icon for it.

                    1. Daniel Bower
                      Coat

                      Re: oh yea..

                      I am slightly offended by the term 'grammar nazi'. I much prefer the term alt-write...

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: oh yea..

              "Spelt wrong" depends on which side of "the pond" you are on.

              Kudos has to go to Voland for the ideal Transpondian post which included both.

            3. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

              Re: oh yea..

              It seems that the British spelling sometimes includes extra vowels that when sounded out lead to a slightly different pronunciation

              I seem to recall that the US spelling was deliberately rationalised sometime after the rebellion succeeded - since so many people who were non-native speakers were arriving it was felt that the grammer and spelling needed to be simplified.

              Which explains a lot about US English :-)

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: oh yea..

            "However, despite DavCrav's enthusiasm for correct English, he totally failed to detect that labo[u]r was spelt wrong in the original comment"

            Two countries divided by a common language.

        5. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: oh yea..

          > It is important to remember that English is a second language for many people.

          I'm with you for the rest of your post, but those were the mistakes of an uneducated native speaker, not those of someone with a language other than English as his mother tongue.

      2. WatAWorld

        Re: oh yea..

        How would an MBA or CFO see this?

        I think this way.

        For skilled jobs it is always cheaper for an employer to let some other company or a country do the training, and you just hire the trained person away.

        Plus hiring skilled people away from developing countries hinders the development of the developing country's own competing industry. Meaning you have a side benefit of smothering cheaper competition.

        The cost of tossing current citizens and immigrants out onto the unemployment heap, the costs of benefits/welfare is born by taxpayers in general, not the company in particular.

        Also bringing people in on work permits lays the groundwork for later moving that business sector offshore completely.

        So it is shareholder and executive greed, greased in some countries by campaign donations to those who decide visa quotas.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: oh yea..

        I think you're being unduly harsh on cyke1 here - for instance his comment in his history made on Jul 28th 2015 where he states

        Someone forgot to tell Obama, um "the white house" won't be his much longer

        English must be a second language and we should be more forgiving of his punctuation as those quotation marks around "the white house" come across as pretty racist, whereas I'm sure that wasn't his intention at all.

        /s

      4. El_Fev

        Re: oh yea..

        Thank you for your valid input to this thread...and people wonder why Trump won! Sweet Weeping Jesus!

    2. Antron Argaiv Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: oh yea..

      It's about freakin' time.

      I'm against Trump and his divisive rhetoric, but if he reins in the H-1B program abuses, I will give him credit.

      It is, as cyke1 says, simply a means for large companies to eliminate US workers (who cost too much) and hire foreign ones (who cost much less, and are strongly incentivized NOT to change jobs)

      1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

        Re: oh yea..

        A friend moved from the UK to the US and was astonished that you could be fired, immediately, with no notice and for no reason. This was nothing to do with H1-B, it seemed to be just the way it worked in the US. As a consequence her entire office spent half the time working and half the time covering their own ass. I imagine if you wanted to shake up the law to provide more security for US workers, that would be as good a place to start as any...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: oh yea..

          That "firing just because" rule is only in some states, I believe; in other states you need a valid reason. Not sure how widespread it is, but yes, the law could definitely do with being looked at.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: oh yea..

            Many americans are working 'at will' so are going into work each day knowing that they can be fired for no real reason and out before the end of that day with no notice at all.

            As if that wasn't bad enough, no job, more or less means no healthcare.

            So, yeah, by all means blame the 100,000 Indian H1-B guys for all your woes.

        2. martinusher Silver badge

          Re: oh yea.. (firing)

          States that have these laws are called "Right To Work" states (Orwell Lives!). Most states in the US are in this category including seemingly progressive ones such as California. Its supposed to be fair because an employee can also quit at any time without a notice period. Cynics may regard this as an unequal trade.

          The H1-B program is widely abused. It not only allows a handful of Indian contracting firms to import cheap labor, undercutting local jobs in IT, but it also crowds out the visa allocations so that other companies -- smaller companies, especially -- can't hire overseas labor to cover genuine skill shortages. (Incidentally, I came to the US on an H-1 over 30 years ago so I know the rules -- which is why I know that they're currently being flouted.)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: oh yea..

      > It has turned in to a way for companies to fire American workers and bring in cheap labor

      There is something I don't quite understand there. The median developer salary in Silicon Valley is slightly upwards of US$100,000.- Can you please define "cheap"?

  3. rcx141

    Excellent news if Trump does slash the H1-B visa numbers. If US based managers aren't up to the job of running projects remotely, make them hire unemployed US graduates rather than what basically amounts to indentured servants from abroad.

    1. Lee D

      I think you'll find that almost all countries have such visa programs precisely because local talent is hard to find or overly expensive.

      Open your borders, people come, do the job you need, and then move on to other things.

      Close your borders, nobody comes, the local talent aren't skilled how you need, or they charge twice as much because they are now a much rarer beast.

      To be honest, as soon as visa things mention "graduates" you're really stupid to play with them... it's brain drain.

      The UK is finding this out with Brexit and the only panic you see from the government is assuring foreign students and foreign-educated graduates that their situation will remain unchanged. They can't afford to lose those people.

      1. WatAWorld

        are you saying all American programmers are too stupid to learn?

        " the local talent aren't skilled how you need"

        It is kind of racist against American programmers to think they are too stupid to learn yet another programming language or methodology on top of the three they already know.

        From what I've personally seen a few times, befriend a co-worker on a work permit and you'll find some unfortunate person learning the programming language whose smooth-talking American salesperson lied to the client about them already having 3 years experience in it. And they're working 4 hours daily unpaid overtime to make up for that salesperson's lie.

        An employer knows for certain if his own person has the work experience. And sales people from outside agencies can lie very smoothly.

        Probably 95% of work visas are for persons with routine skills that could be picked up by a local programmer or analyst in less than 3 months.

        The other 5% of work visas are genuinely needed for people working for employers on projects of such short duration with such rare skills they are only needed in the country for 6 months or fewer months, less time that it would take to train someone local to do the job.

        1. Tom Paine

          Re: are you saying all American programmers are too stupid to learn?

          Probably 95% of work visas are for persons with routine skills...

          What evidence is there that this is the case? Or is it just supposition and speculation? You may well be right -- I haven't a clue -- but data, please, not anecdote.

          1. Maty

            Re: are you saying all American programmers are too stupid to learn?

            'What evidence is there that this is the case? Or is it just supposition and speculation? You may well be right -- I haven't a clue -- but data, please, not anecdote.'

            I know! Why doesn't someone - perhaps America's new president-elect - set up an inquiry into this, and other types of visa fraud?

      2. joeldillon

        You say 'charge twice as much' like it's a bad thing, I say that's supply and demand. Usually on the side of the employer these days, but in tech it's on the side of the (skilled) employee. Not going to shed tears for the employer that's forced by the market to pay a good wage, really.

        1. Kernel

          " Not going to shed tears for the employer that's forced by the market to pay a good wage, really."

          And presumably you will be just as happy when the market forces you, the consumer, to pay more for the product - because I can assure you that in the long run any extra labour costs will not be coming out of the employer's pocket.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        UK skills shortage a result of employers offering dismal pay (outside of a few big city hotspots) but wanting lots of skills,

        A someone not London based, the salaries on offer are usually a total joke when you look at skills / responsibilities required.

        No real incentive for a UK grad to do a science / tech career when far more cash for far less effort / skill going the accountancy, law etc. route.

      4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        I think you'll find that almost all countries have such visa programs precisely because local talent is hard to find or overly expensive expects to be paid a rate commensurate with knowledge and experience.

        FTFY although there may be a few other factors at work.

        All too often the only reward mechanism is promotion to management as the technical pay scale doesn't extend that far. Up to a point the "management" post could be a facade to enable the business to retain someone who might otherwise be lost but that can't be worked very often and there's always a risk that higher management insist that the "manager" actually manage.

        The consequence is that the work can end up being done by people who are either too inexperienced or too inept to be promoted and managed by people who would be good at the work but whose managerial abilities weren't known at the time of promotion and in many cases don't exist. I think most of us have experience of such managers.

        Another factor is management's fondness for gimmicks such as motivational presentations. For a competent technical person the maximum number of such experiences is one. Companies can find themselves motivating experienced local talent right out of the door.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Excellent news if Trump does slash the H1-B visa numbers. If US based managers aren't up to the job of running projects remotely, make them hire unemployed US graduates rather than what basically amounts to indentured servants from abroad.

      I give that about 3 minutes. All it takes is Trump realising he can no longer hire enough indentured slaves to run his own businesses (read: rising costs leading to the ultimate billionaire horror: less profit). I assume Trump will not separate his business interest from being President, that's not how the man is wired and so far, it appears nobody is really prepared or even able to take him on. After all laws and regulations no longer seem to matter over there.

      1. Tom Paine

        I assume Trump will not separate his business interest from being President, that's not how the man is wired and so far, it appears nobody is really prepared or even able to take him on. After all laws and regulations no longer seem to matter over there.

        The President is officially exempt from all rules about conflicts of interest in Congress or the organisations that comprise what we'd call the Civil Service over here. It seems it never occurred to anyone that a President would decline to put themselves above the suspicion of corruption of a conflict of interest. Possibly this is because there's never been an active businessman President before. Pretty sure whoever takes office after Trump -- if anyone ever does -- will be revising those rules...

      2. Gio Ciampa

        "I assume Trump will not separate his business interest from being President"

        If I understand it correctly - he has to, by law, put the business interests in a "blind trust" and have no part in them...

        ...of course, I'll wager that there are ways to get around that particular inconvenience...

        1. Lee D

          Have you ever tried to apply for a visa?

          Last time I tried (for Australia, not the US), I had to be accredited, skills-tested (yes, Australia operate IT skills test in foreign territories), prove that my job involved the kinds of things they were looking for, and I had to be working in a profession which fitted their definition of an acceptable job for visa approval - which were all high-skill or high-level-of-management jobs.

          In the end I applied for a Working Holiday visa instead, which was much less strict but only lasted a year and the idea was you could use that to later form the basis for a real visa.

          I can't imagine that Australia has more tech people in the US such that their criteria have to be so much stricter. I imagine, in comparison, they are crying out for skilled people. But the fact is that the application process itself involves things akin to a CCNA / A+ (but industry certs don't directly qualify you for their test) as a base level of acceptable skill tells you just who they are interested in having and who they are not.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      lol, so they will abolish the H1-Bs and they will employ the "unemployed US graduates" - and pay them more than "indentured servants from abroad"? Oh, but this eats into their bottom line, can't afford THAT! So, the solution would be...

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      US unemployed - 8 to 16 million depending on what exactly being measured from workforce of 150+ million

      H1B visa numbers - up to 100,000 per year (cap plus overrun)

      So cutting back H1B isn't going to affect broad unemployment rates much.

    5. Public Citizen

      As noted by martinusher the H1-B program is being widely, and in some cases notoriously, abused by certain US Companies.

      Most notable and among the most egregious examples is Disneys mass termination of staff in Florida when it contracted with one of the above noted Contract Labor Suppliers from India.

      To add insult to injury the Disney employees being terminated were forced to train their replacements under threat of not receiving a specified termination package. Disney isn't the only company to engage in exactly this sort of abuse, just one of the most widely publicized.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        "To add insult to injury the Disney employees being terminated were forced to train their replacements under threat of not receiving a specified termination package."

        There's training and then there's training. "At the end of the day you can tidy up your work space by typing rm -rf *"

  4. noh1bvisas
    Happy

    YES!

    This is why I voted Trump-Pence.

    1. Trilkhai

      Re: YES!

      I'm an anti-TPP independent, but it didn't come into play in my vote as I was aware that Clinton had also come out against it over a year ago. She'd backed early draft versions of the TPP, spent 2015 saying she wasn't sure whether to advocate for it because she wasn't aware of how negotiations were going, and ultimately was against the finalized terms.

      That Trump took a populist stance rather than following the majority of Republicans backing the TPP is one of the reasons that I don't entirely believe he'll be the disaster as President so many people fear he will. (Pence, on the other hand... Well, I have a sneaking suspicion Trump chose him as the good old survival strategy of, "you may think you hate my politics, but consider who'll become President if I'm dead!")

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: YES!

        Ah bullshit. Clinton flipped on the tpp the moment it became clear bernie was gaining too much support. You can bet she would have gone right back to supporting it the moment she was in office.

        1. WatAWorld

          Re: YES!

          100% for certain, if elected Clinton would have done what was good for her herself and her fellow mega millionaire friends on the TPP.

          She was the face of stable change and continuing the USA's bipartisan War on the Middle Class.

          (The question now is whether:

          a. Trump will be no better than Clinton and now join the war on the middle class.

          b. Or will be he impeached for whatever. Or

          c. Will he join Sanders and Warren to fight almost the entire rest of Washington work to end the War on the Middle Class.

          Reading earlier today, perhaps the various FCC appointments he makes and approves may be our first real indication of which path he chooses.

          1. Tom Paine

            Re: YES!

            [...] War on the Middle Class [...]

            *rolls eyes*

      2. Simon Harris

        Re: YES!

        "Pence, on the other hand..."

        I remember during the Bush/Quayle years there was a joke that if anything happened to Bush the Secret Service were under orders to shoot Quayle. I wonder if that will be revived for Pence.

      3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: YES!

        Well, I have a sneaking suspicion Trump chose him as the good old survival strategy of, "you may think you hate my politics, but consider who'll become President if I'm dead!")

        The old Spiro Agnew ploy if I'm not mistaken.

    2. Mystic Megabyte
      FAIL

      Re: YES!

      Trump is full of bullshit and will only enrich his family at your expense. This photo says it all:

      https://www.indy100.com/article/donald-trump-family-cbs-interview-gold-thrones-elite-all-americans-man-of-the-people-7416171?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100

  5. Winkypop Silver badge
    Meh

    As much as the man is a dog-turd of a racist

    I won't be crying over the death of the TPP.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: As much as the man is a dog-turd of a racist

      Nor will a lot of SE Asian countries who now won't have Google re-writing their copyright laws, Johnson+Johnson deciding which of their traditional remedies are now patented and having Exxon Mobile tear up their environmental laws while Haliburton take over their infrastructure.

      1. Malcolm Weir Silver badge

        Optional

        Don't worry: Exxon Mobile will be too busy, as The Cheetos President will have eliminated regulations that "impede businesses". Perhaps he'll make it possible for Haliburton to conduct Environmental Impact Studies (i.e. buy a stamp with "None, go right ahead" written on it).

        More regulations to be eliminated are, no doubt, all those pesky pharmaceutical regs, which will have the added benefit of reducing drug development costs. Naturally, there may be a few unfortunate side effects (like vast numbers of awkward side effects)...

      2. Triggerfish

        Re: As much as the man is a dog-turd of a racist

        Plus Phillip Morris suing countries for putting health warnings on cigarettes.

  6. bazza Silver badge

    And so it begins...

    America's heading towards recession. That'll do no one any good.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And so it begins...

      No, we're headed out of an eight year recession. The one that got Obama elected and somehow never went away. Funny about that.

      1. The bigger, blacker box.

        Re: And so it begins...

        >>No, we're headed out of an eight year recession. The one that got Obama elected and somehow never went away. Funny about that.

        The latest US recession started a year before Obama took office, but blue collar jobs have been crashing since 2000, however, blue collar jobs have been on a steady increase for the last 4 years, the recession is officially (statistically) over, bundling in interest rates, employment rates, poverty thresholds etc. this is little consolation for those who are still suffering the affects of the blue collar crash, but as much as Obama has stopped the steady decline (and to some extent reversed it in the last 4 years) it's totally impossible to have historical levels of industrial employment, automation is cheaper, it's here and it's increasing, you either have expensive hand made, inconsistent quality products or cheaper, consistent quality products, which do you think a business man like Trump will want?

        1. lglethal Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: And so it begins...

          What the hell is it with Americans? It's Obamas fault that the recession started before he was elected, and he didn't magically fix it? But the fact that the House of Representatives has been controlled by the Republicans the ENTIRE time that there has been recession and the Senate for 90% of that time, its somehow not their fault?

          You've had a republican dominated Congress and republican dominated Supreme Court, the entire period you had a democrat President, and yet its the democrat Presidents fault that things aren't magically perfect?

          The number of Yanks I hear saying they voted for trump as a protest vote is crazy. Fine protest vote, I can maybe believe that. Except for the fact, you all voted the republicans back into the House of Representatives and the Senate. Where's your protest vote there? There are independents in both those houses, a protest vote would have you seen you voting for the independents in your local states, but nope you didn't, you voted in the same morons.

          Well now you have republicans in all 3 branches of the Executive. Things will magically become better wont they? *rolleyes*

        2. Tom Paine

          Re: And so it begins...

          Google [ define:recession economics ]

          (hint: it's nothing to do with unemployment, interest rate or "poverty thresholds" .

      2. Tom Paine

        Re: And so it begins...

        Pro tip: don't make wild claims that can be checked in 5 secs of clickitty-click.

        http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

    2. a_yank_lurker Silver badge

      Re: And so it begins...

      How would you know? The official numbers about the economy ignore the plight of the working class who never recovered from the last recession. No jobs for burly men only for bureaucrats and the chattering classes (or so it seems). Pay raises for many are anemic if they occur at all. One statistic that is often ignored is the labor participation rate is down to very low levels, about were it was 20 or 30 years ago. To many the recession never ended.

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: And so it begins...

        To many the recession never will end because it's triggering a post-labor economy where fewer and fewer things require human labor to perform. Vast chunks of the population will soon become permanently redundant, at which point things will get ugly.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And so it begins...

          I caught an interview very recently on Euronews with a comedian who started a polticalish-party, one of his suggestions is to urgently plan for nation(s) beyond the [current/permanent?] "no-jobs" situation. I haven't understood yet, but it might be 'helicopter money' - similar to the [defeated] Swiss vote for a monthly £2K stipend or the Finnish proposal for a 'minimum wage' for all adults (without the need to work)

          I await with interest the first week of dicembre to see if it might be going his way. . .?

          "ugly" is certainly one of the choices, are there any en-nobled economists working on the alternatives?

        2. Tom Paine

          Re: And so it begins...

          "recession" does not mean "people feeling less wealthy". It means "two or more consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth".

  7. redpawn

    Coming from a "Man" who said wages are too high

    not long ago, who hires illegal workers for his projects. Bust out your twenty sided dice and roll for a blessing if you want this to happen. Expect policy actions to be random and capricious unless they directly benefit Trump or punish his current enemies.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Coming from a "Man" who said wages are too high

      "directly benefit Trump or punish his current enemies."

      That's the bit about him that worries me the most. He spouts off a lot about trust in business and loyalty but he does seem to be very vindictive and holds grudges for a long time. Likewise, he seems far too thin-skinned to be in politics which will only exacerbate his existing traits.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you sit upwind from a mixed bag of feces, it's almost tolerable.

    1. Charles 9 Silver badge

      One man's crap is another's fertilizer.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bait and switch

    He's so busy installing wall street cronies and lobbyists and far right nutjobs into positions of power, the big picture of how fucked the US is going to be is being missed.

    1. WonkoTheSane
      Trollface

      Re: Bait and switch

      All will become clear when he takes the Presidential Oath from the Grand Kleagle of the KKK

  10. Unep Eurobats
    Paris Hilton

    I'm conflicted

    TPP: bad because, er, workers' rights, the environment.

    Whatever The Donald does: bad because, er, Trump.

  11. lglethal Silver badge
    Go

    Actual question

    Trump can say he will cancel TPP, but can he actually do that? If congress want it (and most republicans support it from what I've read previously), don't they have the power to pass it? Trump can use veto I guess, but isn't there mechanisms around that?

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: Actual question

      The executive branch (under the president) negotiates foreign treaties and the president signs them.

      Then to come into effect properly the foreign treaty has to be ratified by the Senate.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_treaties

      "Under the treaty clause of the United States Constitution, treaties come into effect upon final ratification by the President of the United States, provided that a two-thirds majority of the United States Senate concurs."

      Note that the USA often makes use of "Reservations, understandings, and declarations". on treaties, things that state the USA's interpretation of the treaty. If you go looking you'll often see these clauses say things like, "The United States of American understands this treaty as not in any way restricting its ability to [do what it has always done/do whatever it wants/carry on as before]".

      I used UN Treaties for examples, because they can be found easily on the web and they're usually easier for us laypeople to understand than trade treaties.

      For example:

      http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/usdocs/civilres.html

      which makes the USA's signature on this treaty arguably meaningless within the USA

      http://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx

      Another example:

      https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-9&chapter=4&clang=_en#13

      for this treaty:

      http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CAT.aspx

      1. Charles 9 Silver badge

        Re: Actual question

        The TPP is essentially dead because NEITHER candidate was going to agree with it as it stands. Plus getting it ratified even then is going to be tough (there are plenty across the aisle who don't like--you can probably find at least 34 of them, enough to block a ratification).

  12. Version 1.0 Silver badge

    S. Trump et.

    I would not place, or take, any bets on what the president-elect will do when he gets into office. He thinks that he will actually be setting policy - he hasn't sat down with his "advisors" yet:

    And you're in this smoky room, and this little film screen comes down … and a big guy with a cigar goes, "Roll the film." And it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before … that looks suspiciously like it's from the grassy knoll. And then the screen goes up and the lights come up, and they go to the new president, "Any questions?" - Bill Hicks

    1. Zolko Silver badge
      Holmes

      Re: S. Trump et.

      … and a big guy with a cigar ...

      I think that such a big guy with a cigar would have an unfortunate hunting accident quite soon. There are many opinions among secret services, and they're not all sold to Wall Street. Some actually believe in what they're doing.

  13. WatAWorld

    A mission statement is NOT a plan

    A mssion statement is not a plan:

    "The Department of Defence's Cyber Strategy already lists “Defend the U.S. homeland and U.S. national interests against cyberattacks of significant consequence” as one of its three missions, so it is unclear exactly what new plans Trump expects."

    That is just a mission statement.

    There probably is some kind of plan -- last year's plan at best.

    What year-old plan to defend against cyber warfare is adequate?

    Was the plan ever adequate? Reading the register, I doubt it, there are simply so many undiscovered holes out there in every useful operating system, and probably also the microcode for every useful CPU and large scale general purpose packaged software.

    Plans against cyber warfare will always be iterative and never perfect. There will always be new holes to discover. Until one day AI eliminates all humans*, there will always be holes in large software systems.

    * Not human programmers. All humans.

    1. Tom Paine

      Re: A mission statement is NOT a plan

      Security is about much, much, MUCH more than software vulnerabilities.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: A mission statement is NOT a plan

        >Security is about much, much, MUCH more than software vulnerabilities.

        We will have to be tough on cybersecurity, we will ban phone with screens more than 5.1 inches from planes and make you put them in a clear plastic bag at security

        There - solved

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: A mission statement is NOT a plan

      "Until one day AI eliminates all humans, there will always be holes in large software systems."

      Who's going to write the code for this AI?

      1. Captain DaFt

        Re: A mission statement is NOT a plan

        "Who's going to write the code for this AI?"

        Self modifying code, no humans needed.

        Of course, two months after the last human is eliminated, the whole system goes quiet...

        Except in a small, heavily fortified room some where, a terminal continually beeps with this message on the screen:

        An unexpected error has occurred.

        Press 'Enter' to continue,

        any other key to quit.

      2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: A mission statement is NOT a plan

        Who's going to write the code for this AI?

        Another, slightly more stupid and slightly more limited, AI. And so on, back to the squishy meatbag-of-mostly-water.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "New" cyber defense plan?

    If he's asking the same generals who are in place today to come up with a plan, how is it going to be any different than the plan they have now? Is he going to say "I know you said the plan you have now is the best you can come up with, but I want something better than you came up with for Obama!"

    Unless Obama was unwilling to commit to spending what they wanted to spend, and Trump is, I fail to see how Trump taking office will make our cyber defense any better. But I'm sure he'll say it is, regardless - and if there's a major breach in 2019 he'll pin the blame on Obama anyway.

  15. xeroks

    Great news

    For those of us outside the US, that is.

    Import taxation makes everything more expensive in the US, which means their exports will also be more expensive. That makes our competing products cheaper in comparison.

    Win! Thanks Mr PEOTUS!

  16. Omar Smith
    Facepalm

    What would President Priest have done?

    President Priest blows up Cuba

    Lexx episode 01 "I Worship His Shadow" (1997) ..

    1. Afernie

      Re: What would President Priest have done?

      Given how things have been progressing before Trump even takes office, I'm expecting the killer carrots and Godzilla-sized Lyekka to turn up before too much longer.

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