back to article Report: UK counter-terrorism plan Prevent is 'unjust', 'counterproductive'

Prevent is “not only unjust but also counterproductive” according to a study into the human rights impact of the strategy, which revealed how a 14-year-old was targeted over a Facebook photograph. Launched in 2003, Prevent evolved out of the panic regarding “home grown” terrorism, and involved entering Muslim children into the …

  1. peter 45

    "14-year-old was targeted over a Facebook photograph....wearing a salwar kameez and holding one of his father's licensed guns".

    I must dig out one of my photos when I joined the cadets at 12 years old wearing an Army uniform posing with a converted Bren gun, and post it on facebook,

    Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........

    1. sabroni Silver badge

      Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........

      You're not brown?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........

      The difference is that you were wearing a military uniform, rather than just some traditional clothing.

      It might be more comparable if you were dressed as a morris-man while wielding a rifle. Then, you'd probably also get socially excluded, but likely for different reasons.

      1. James O'Shea

        I wasn't in uniform when I had grand-grand-uncle's rifle. It was a still working Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mark 3 Star, the very finest battle rifle ever made. With a bayonet. Ex-RN, sorta. I've got a lot of pix of it, including me (and lots of others) actually firing it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          On my shelf are three pictures of civilians holding guns taken several years ago.

          My then 19 year old English "godson" at a gunshop shooting range in the USA with an M16 style rifle. The target picture of Osama Bin Laden dates it.

          My then 16 year old Israeli "godson" at a practice range in Israel holding the .22 training version of an M16.

          Myself - tanned and bearded - on kibbutz in Israel just after the Yom Kippur War holding a borrowed Uzzi. It felt surprisingly heavy. Whenever I see film of soldiers running with a Bren in places like the Malayan Emergency - I realise they had to be pretty fit.

          Somewhere in the family archives there is a picture of my cousin in the RAF in the Cyprus Emergency. Up an aerial mast wearing just shorts - with a Sten cradled in his lap.

          I wonder what people make of the final apocalyptic scene of Lindsay Anderson's film "IF..." (1968) nowadays? Apparently the machine gun kept jamming - so they had to be creative and repeat the same sequence to give the appearance of continuous fire.

    3. Phil.T.Tipp

      "Of course the difference between his photo and mine is........um........"

      1. Uniform of HM Forces

      2. Worn by a forces cadet

      3. Bren gun FFS

      4. Into what had it been converted?

      5. Your virtue signalling is desperate and pathetic

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        1, He didn't say which Forces - he could have been in the Hitler youth or Franco's civil war army.

        2,I'm not sure facebook actually verifies that he was official.

        3, A totally harmless sporting gun. Assuming the sport is talking over bits of other countries

        4, I suspect converted into non-automatic fire. Alternatively it could have been converted into a ball point pen by a particularly ingenious although rather confused 'Q'

        5, He may have been confessing to war crimes

      2. peter 45

        1. So?

        2. So?

        3. So? Still a machine gut that can kill.

        4. Bren Gun conversion. http://norfolktankmuseum.co.uk/bren-l4/

        5. Wooosh. Pointing out illogical standards.

  2. Christoph

    We've got to punish this child because our (untested, unscientific) theory says he might be a criminal in the future.

    If we're sufficiently nasty and evil to him, that will stop him hating us.

  3. cbars Bronze badge

    This is pretty disgusting.

    Poor kid.

    Think of the children! Actually!

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. ShadowDragon8685

      Re: This is pretty disgusting.

      Agreed. Shooting is a fine and enjoyable passtime, and one in which young men are traditionally instructed by an elder male relative. (I'll leave the misogynist argument for another time, but there's no goddamned reason it can't or shouldn't be enjoyed by young women and/or instructed by elder female relatives.)

      But because the kid was brown and probably holding an SKS - unto the Kalashnikov as an AR-15 is unto the M-16 - then it's suddenly 'radicalism'.

      Gag me. I've shot an SKS myself. Fun shooter, kicked like unholy damnit - whilst cleaning it, we discovered that an entire cleaning cloth had become lost in the gas cylinder the previous time it was cleaned. Still fired and cycled just fine - Old Mikhail sure knew how to engineer a fine and robust action.

      1. Pompous Git Silver badge

        Re: This is pretty disgusting.

        I'll leave the misogynist argument for another time, but there's no goddamned reason it can't or shouldn't be enjoyed by young women and/or instructed by elder female relatives.

        No need for misogyny. Boudica, queen of the Iceni in Britannia, led a massive uprising against the occupying Roman forces ca. 60 AD. Suetonius wrote that her army contained more women than men. It was common for Celtic women to train young men in warfare. Mainly because the men were away doing battle in the summertime.

        1. ShadowDragon8685

          Re: This is pretty disgusting.

          I agree, as it happens. As I said, in fact.

          Shooting is a fine and fun pasttime. Because the one ethnicity I think everybody can agree deserves to get pumped full of lead is target papers.

          Seriously, they're all arseholes, each and every one of them.

        2. oldfartuk

          Re: This is pretty disgusting.

          Women soldiers against moslems are very effective. If you are moslem, to be killed by a woman whilst engaged in jihad means you dont get your 75 virgins. The Kurds have used them to much effect, most of the time ISIS just ran away.

  4. Halcin

    Display

    This is all about display. Politicians/Civil Servants/etc must be "seen to be doing something about it". That "something" does not need to be effective or efficient, as long as it's visible.

    Now these teachers can pat themselves on the back for a job well done: They've done "something" to prevent "radicalisation". And it's not their fault if it fails to work - they were "following procedure".

    If you "follow procedure", it doesn't matter how horrific the consequences, you are free of all responsibility for your actions. Even the architect of the procedure is not culpable.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Display

      If you "follow procedure", it doesn't matter how horrific the consequences, you are free of all responsibility for your actions.

      They thought differently at Nuremberg

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Display

        The winners They thought differently at Nuremberg

      2. Halcin

        Re: Display

        @ Paul Crawford

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    2. oldfartuk

      Re: Display

      'Following procedure' as a defence didnt work at Nuremburg post 1946, and doesnt work now.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Demonisation

    Muslims and Islam have long been demonised; our governments and Prevent programmes have played their part in encouraging that.

    There are still plenty who want to promote the idea that Muslims are simply a fifth column amongst us waiting to cut our throats and impose their caliphate and sharia law. The greatest fears expressed over refugees and asylum seekers are that they are mostly Muslims, are, "invaders", are only seeking to come here to kill us, rape our women, and take over.

    "They started it", is an oft heard excuse, because history for some only started in 2001 and if one person proclaiming to follow Islam is a bad guy they must all be; "it is in their koran". There is no acceptance that Muslims are or can be individuals, do not follow a single interpretation of faith any more than Christian and other factions do.

    Muslims are treated collectively in a manner no one else would be. Some will not even accept it when a Muslim says; "not in my name".

    I have no idea how we turn that round, but keeping on demonising those who are not bad guys does not help.

    I am actually surprised that more Muslims have not been radicalised by they way we treat them.

    And I feel awful about having to post anonymously but I really do not want to endure the hate and vitriol which so frequently gets directed towards anyone who may express any sympathy at all for Muslims, refugees, asylum seekers or migrants.

    1. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Demonisation

      Look around, look back over recent history, and you will always see the "other nation/religion/colour are top blame" as the reason of choice for morons and the politicians craving their support or following an agenda where it suits them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Demonisation

        Apparently the level of reported "hate crime" in the UK/England has risen sharply since the recent UK political turmoil over several issues. Not just xenophobia - but also directed against many "others" groupings.

        The lynch mob mentality is always lurking below the surface of any apparently civilised society - just waiting for a demagogue to blow the dog whistle.

        1. Phil.T.Tipp

          Re: Demonisation

          Sources, or you are simply squeeing your virtue at all the other r/ selected rodents.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Demonisation

            Probably you'll sneer that this lacks academic rigour, but first five results from googling "hate crime uk brexit" are links to stories run on CNN, Guardian, Time, The Independent, with titles such as "European embassies in UK log more alleged hate crimes since Brexit vote".

            But I'd already heard this from two Polish friends, one in London, the other in Newcastle, both long-time residents in professional jobs, both experiencing direct personal abuse (and the Newcastle one having his son bullied in school, swastika painted on their house fence)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Demonisation

            "Sources [...]"

            Here is the most recent article commenting on an unexpected rise in "hate crime" figures beyond xenophobia.

            Although BREXIT has been seen as an obvious trigger - that would ignore the concurrent political schisms that are causing old bile to bubble back to the surface. The Labour Party's leadership's lurch to the left is one. UKIP is also starting to fracture and adding fuel to a war of words between its factions. No doubt the Tory factions are also no longer best pals.

            That gives licence to other people who will be vocal about their fears of those who are "different" in some way.

            They are all exposing the fact that the Parliamentary "First Past The Post" voting system has favoured political parties that internally are unstable coalitions - in order to generate the critical mass to game the system.

            https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/08/homophobic-attacks-double-after-brexit-vote

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Demonisation

              >Muslims and Islam have long been demonised;

              No they haven't. They are just trying to cash in by undercutting traditional UK terrorism.

              After nearly 500years of official source of religous scaremongering (having beaten out the Jews under Henry VIII) and 100 years of being official suppliers of terrorism to HM government it is appalling that a fear of native catholics is being replaced after a few bombs on buses.

              I had to risk army patrols, car bombs and visits by NI ministers to get "IRA Killers" graffitedi on my catholic primary school. All kids have to do today is be brown on facebook.

        2. VanguardG

          Re: Demonisation

          Come, AC...you don't think the "sharp rise" might be because someone simply redefined "hate crime" to encompass more behaviors than it did previously, in order to advance their own agenda?

    2. Pompous Git Silver badge

      Re: Demonisation

      I have no idea how we turn that round, but keeping on demonising those who are not bad guys does not help.

      Point them to some sample muslims?

      Richard Thompson - 1952 Vincent Black Lightning

    3. oldfartuk
      Thumb Down

      Re: Demonisation

      You need to do a bit of research. The Koran contians over 500 verses where unbelievers are demonised, and thers 110 verses where moslems are instructed to kill us. All moslems are compelled by the Koran to strive for the World Caliphate. several pollsover the years have shown that about one third of all moslems agree with jihad against the west. Since theres about 1.2 billion moslems in the world, that roughly 400 million people who dont think slitting your throat is a bad thing. For comparison, it only took about 2% of the german populatrion of 40 million who were Nazis to inflict the holocaust of WW2 on the world, so 400 million terrorist sympathisers should alarm you.

      Id also like to point out that since 9/11 there has been over 32,000 acts of terrorism world wide, and the vast majority (97%) have been comitted in the name of Islam. Id also like to point out the scapegoating of the west in this respect - of the 32,000 act of terrorism, less than 5000 (thats about 2%) of the victims were westerners. The vast majority of moslem terrorism is comitted against other moslems, and then they West is blamed for it.

      And one final point - slavery. Its a fun game to blame the west, and particualry the UK and USA for slavery, when in fact moslems were slaving africa 400 years before westerners got there. The moslem slaver simply realised it was easier to sell the slaves t othe whitemen, then ship them back home to sellthem. And Whereas the west abolished slavery more than 150 years ago, slavery is still condoned and approved in the Koran, and moslems continue to take slaves in africa , especially women and girls as sex slaves. Remember Boko Harem, for example - 200 girls ?

      So much for the 'religion of peace'.

  6. Roj Blake Silver badge
    Pint

    Four Lions

    Excellent choice of pic from the acclaimed documentary on the danger of radicalisation, Four Lions.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In response, the government announced an intensive 3 year fact-ignoring mission to justify more of the same. Again.

  8. James O'Shea

    Most interesting

    I'm sure that I have a pic or two or twelve of me and grand-grand-uncle's SMLE. He was issued a SMLE Mk 3* while serving on a cruiser in the RN in 1918 for reasons which no doubt made sense to the RN, and when demob time came around they didn't want the rifle back, for reasons which again no doubt made sense to the RN. Cousin Pat inherited it, and there are pix of us, and assorted cousins and friends, with it. Complete with bayonet. Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about. One friend was a Vishnu Singh. No doubt these idiots wouldn't have objected, seeing as he wasn't Muslim... (No, he wasn't Sikh, either. Not all Singhs are Sikhs, though all male Sikhs are Singhs...)

    Memo to the Admiralty: if you dozy lot want your rifle back, you owe us nearly a hundred years worth of upkeep for it. I'll take it in cash. Nice crisp 100-euro notes, not pounds, thanks.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Most interesting

      "Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about."

      It probably made sense in Nelson's day when ships closed for hand-to-hand fighting. It always takes institutions a while to discard their customary way of doing things. It was said that when they did a thorough stock check of a large Army supply depot in the 1980s - they found they still had a large quantity of mule shoes.

    2. Phil.T.Tipp

      Re: Most interesting

      "...Complete with bayonet. Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about."

      ---

      "Shore party, fix bayonets!"

      Not so hard when you think about it.

    3. ShadowDragon8685

      Re: Most interesting

      Sounds like good, wholesome fun for the whole family and friends. I'd love to get my hands on an SMLE in good condition for a shoot down the range, but they're awful hard to lay hands on leftpondian side.

    4. Vic

      Re: Most interesting

      Exactly what use a bayonet was on a cruiser was one of the things we wondered about

      Some years ago, I was on a dive holiday in Sharm. There had been some trouble fairly recently, so the place was absolutely crawling in Tourist Police (who were actually really decent blokes).

      The copper on every street corner sorta made sense, but the ones in the harbour were a bit suspect: six blokes in an inflatable with fixed bayonets...

      Vic.

  9. keithpeter Silver badge
    Coat

    Not just Muslim kids

    Hello all

    The (compulsory) training for all UK teachers on PREVENT includes white/far right issues as well as other forms of extremism.

    Benjamin Zephaniah's recent Terror Kid raises all the issues in a way that gets teenagers talking. And there is an IT angle.

    https://www.theguardian.com/childrens-books-site/2014/aug/28/review-benjamin-zephaniah-terror-kid

    Coat: mine's the one with the safeguarding officer's phone number in the pocket.

  10. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Coat

    So I take away from this

    Vaz endorsed greasing kids entry into unit?

    I know.

  11. G.Y.

    suit

    If this were the US, the school would have been sued for a large sum of $s; concentrates administrators' minds wonderfully.

    1. ShadowDragon8685

      Re: suit

      They almost certainly would have won - the school, that is. Schools here are practically sovereign jurisdictions unto themselves for asinine reasons.

  12. scrubber

    Collateral Damage

    This is just an incidental outcome of a system that has been set up to normalise the constant and intrusive surveillance of the population by so-called security services.

  13. oldfartuk

    The problem is lack of commoon sense. If you are a moslem. and you intend to return to a country where terroroism if high, and peopel ar ehypersensitive to the issue of terrorism, then all in all, to post a picture of you from a rabidly terrorist supporting country, holding a gun, and dressed and Mujahadeebn, is pretty poor judgement at best, and plain stupid at worst. The real criminal here is the boys mother, for her crass lack of cultural sensitivity.

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