back to article French programmers haul Apple into court over developer rules

Nexedi, an open source software company based in France, has filed a lawsuit against Apple in Paris alleging that Apple's App Store contract is unfair. In a blog post, founder and CEO Jean-Paul Smets and UI designer Sven Franck said that the company has undertaken the lawsuit to force Apple to improve its support for the …

  1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    Alternative solution

    Walk away from Apple's market share. It's not *that* great and if enough people did it then Apple might get the message. It's not like we're asking them to scupper their own product line. Making their compulsory browser better behaved surely benefits Apple as well as HTML5 fans.

    1. Wensleydale Cheese
      Stop

      Re: Alternative solution

      "Walk away from Apple's market share. It's not *that* great and if enough people did it then Apple might get the message."

      If you read their blog article, you will see that they address this very problem:

      iPhones are used everywhere - from executives worldwide to the upper middle class in China, so stopping to support iOS in our solutions would mean stopping support for one of the largest markets in the world (China) as well as the market segment that eventually decides to pay our invoices (executives worlwide)

      1. tom dial Silver badge

        Re: Alternative solution

        It still is Nexedi's choice. They can comply with the same rules as other developers and have their apps in the iStore, or not.

        The lawsuit is rent seeking at its most obvious.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Alternative solution

        So what. Chinese people don't pay for anything beyond the phone itself.

        1. Random Handle

          Re: Alternative solution

          >So what. Chinese people don't pay for anything beyond the phone itself.

          App sales were $8.7 billion in 2015 - sensible estimates circle around $30 billion by 2020.

          The bulk of sales currently are via 3rd party Android stores - Play/iTunes combined account for less than 10% of revenue....so you're not alone in failing to understand the Chinese market ;)

    2. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

      Re: Alternative solution

      Our iTunes sales are about 3x our Google Play sales, and we're too small to turn away that revenue (or to localise for the Chinese).

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        Re: Alternative solution

        "Our iTunes sales are about 3x our Google Play sales"

        Looks like it's obvious which one to prioritise then.

        You can't demand a platform changes to converge with another platform just because it would be convenient for you.

        Apple won't allow web-apps for two reasons:

        1. Poor user experience with battery drain etc.

        2. Circumvent the App Store vetting and, of course, 30% cut.

        The very reason iOS is so popular is that it's a closed system with more end user protection, and longer term support for OS updates, and more vetting of app behaviour. From the very start iOS has protected from battery drainage and other bad app behaviour.

        Apple isn't going to throw that away to help cross platform development, which might also help Android device sales, taking away from iPad/iPhone sales. No way.

  2. Frank N. Stein

    Dreaming

    Good luck trying to get a French Court to force Apple to support HTML 5 in IOS because some developer wants them to. Apple can drag their feet in court for years on this.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dreaming

      In some respects it's similar to the initial EU complaints regarding Microsoft's anti-competitive practices that led to the EU antitrust ruling against them in 2004. One of the main issues then was that Microsoft used undocumented Windows interfaces yet their competitors only had less efficient methods at their disposal. If as the article suggest Apple uses functionality in its own applications yet will not allow other application developers to use those same methods there is clearly a case to be answered.

      1. Frank N. Stein

        Re: Dreaming

        Yea. Name a little guy developer who's ever won a case like this against Apple? None? Apple will drag their feet until these guys run out of time and money. Apple can afford to do that. Can this Developer afford to out wait Apple? I doubt it.

        1. Stoneshop
          FAIL

          Re: Dreaming

          Can this Developer afford to out wait Apple?

          The moment this is ruled anticompetitive behaviour (and while IANAL, this case looks to have a fair chance of going that way) Apple will be facing a few unpleasant consequences, like restriction of sales or even total bans. If they want to dispute that ruling, they will be fighting the French government, not these developers.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dreaming

      >Apple can drag their feet in court for years on this

      Yes but they will eventually lose (it's France) and will be paying a much larger settlement plus the extended legal costs. Probably worth the few millions it will cost Apple to protect their app store monopoly, but a win nonetheless for the lawyers and the devs who will have been very well paid for their workarounds.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Umm, hang on..

    Let me get this straight: they don't like the rules set by a large company for access to their controlled ecosystem, but they do want access to the controlled ecosystem regardless so they go to court?

    That's like beating up an innocent Uber driver after Raffles refuses to let you in as you're not a member.

    Why not code something for Android instead, or code for the jailbroken variety?

    I'd be surprised if this one is going to fly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Umm, hang on..

      > Let me get this straight

      Ok, please come back when you've read the article.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Umm, hang on..

        Ok, please come back when you've read the article.

        Well, I have. Still doesn't explain why they expect to win this one. There are valid enough arguments why Apple does X, and you'll need a lot of very expensive lawyers to prove otherwise (even if it is so, which is where the problem starts). I can't see this going anywhere.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          WTF?

          Re: Umm, hang on..

          OK flip it.

          You can only use IE's rendering engine if you want to install a browser on a Windows PC.

          Lets see how that stands up in here.

          1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

            Re: Umm, hang on..

            "You can only use IE's rendering engine if you want to install a browser on a Windows PC."

            Microsoft didn't invent the PC, and the PC is not a closed system.

            MS TRIES to make it closed now, but that's not how it has been since the 1980s.

  4. nilfs2
    Gimp

    Apple is a walled garden, get over it

    If you don't like how iStuff works, try with Android, Apple is the oxymoron of openness

    1. Schultz
      Boffin

      Re: Apple is a walled garden, get over it

      Well, if you have a certain market share, then that 'walled garden' translates into a monopoly and should be broken up.

      A "monopoly power exists when a single firm controls 25% or more of a particular market.". So Apple certainly has a monopoly position in some markets. It'll depend on French law whether they can get away with it.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Apple is a walled garden, get over it

        "It'll depend on French law whether they can get away with it."

        French developers against a foreign, Anglophone corporation in a French court? I'd have thought the odds were stacked in their favour.

        1. Wensleydale Cheese

          Re: Apple is a walled garden, get over it

          "French developers against a foreign, Anglophone corporation in a French court? I'd have thought the odds were stacked in their favour."

          Absolutely.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Apple is a walled garden, get over it

      "Apple is the oxymoron of openness"

      English translation required.

  5. bigtimehustler

    This one kind of catches me in the middle really, on the one hand they don't have to develop an app for apple products, on the other apple have a large market share. The thing is though, they have a large market share because the apps customers want are available on the devices, if they stopped being, apples market share would plummet over a 2 year phone buying cycle. It is actually app developers as a collective that hold the power, if only they could unite...

  6. whoseyourdaddy
    WTF?

    Umm...

    Nothing to see here.

    As I lovingly stroke my fondleslab without a headphone jack,

    I know Apple has my back. Take my money, please!

    I refuse to suffer because Google doesn't.

  7. Jan Hargreaves

    I don't quite get this... can't they just publish an app to do all of that stuff instead? Then they are not limited by Safari's constraints.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Jan how about you try reading the article before commenting!!!

    2. Stuart Castle Silver badge

      They publish an app, but that costs extra money as they need extra programmers and designers to write the app. If they wish to sell the app, they would also need to pay Apple's fee (which is 30% of the app's price). They would also need to buy at least some Macs for the development team. By using HTML 5, they can maintain one set of code that will run on multiple devices, and if they want to sell access, they can sell it by whatever means they want, which may cost less than selling via Apple, and they can use existing hardware.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why use a web browser for an app?

    To be honest, I'm confused. Why is a serious app using JavaScript anyway? Why are they not using Objective C or Swift?

    1. macjules

      Re: Why use a web browser for an app?

      +1 My thoughts exactly.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why use a web browser for an app?

        Because some people don't want the Internet to become a series of closed and incompatible silos. They value the fact that a web app can run on multiple OSes and in different browsers. But we seem to be inexorably going back to the bad old AOL and Compuserve days when companies tried to keep their users away from the open Web.

        1. arthoss

          Re: Why use a web browser for an app?

          Except this is not open web but a business application. Since the 80s people believed in write once run everywhere... stupid people. Those using html5 for business applications to fit everywhere are no different. Must be the new generation of ignorant programmers who don't know history nor theory.

          1. myhandler

            Re: Why use a web browser for an app?

            I downvoted this but want to downvote it more - it's crass.

    2. richardcox13

      Re: Why use a web browser for an app?

      Building a complete custom app for iOS is even more expensive than adapting a working web site for the form factor (and browser limitations).

      Separately: is Safari becoming the new IE6: everyone has to support it, but it costs more to support than all the others combined?

      1. serendipity

        Re: Why use a web browser for an app?

        "is Safari becoming the new IE6"

        Err Yes, and wouldn't it be sweet if the EU Competition Department (come back Neelie Kroes!) fined Apple big time and made them display a Browser Choice window (remember that monstrosity!) on all new iFruit devices. Ah but it'll never happen because it's Apple, right?!

  9. Richard Neill

    Good luck to them

    Anyone who writes websites has to deal with the misfortune of having some users who use iOS. It's a bit like having to support IE6 used to be: you waste a lot of time and some features just don't work properly. Mobile Safari is about 3 years behind the rest of the browsers (e.g. still no working WebRTC, many CSS things aren't fully supported) and this is partly because Apple don't want people to write cross-platform websites instead of Apps. So I hope this succeeds.

    1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

      Re: Good luck to them

      "Anyone who writes websites has to deal with the misfortune of having some users who use iOS."

      So?

      Don't write the iOS version then.

      The iOS users will then have to make a choice.

      As simple as that.

      1. ckm5

        Re: Good luck to them

        Must be nice living in your perfect world....

  10. Slx

    I think Apple are being a bit ridiculous keeping other rendering engines out of iOS. I'm not sure why they even bother. It would be a far more vibrant platform with Chrome and Firefox properly on board.

    I can't really see any advantages to forcing everything into WebKit / Safari.

  11. J.G.Harston Silver badge

    "But as soon as we would publish it, it would be banned from Apple's App Store"

    So, don't sell it through Apple's App Store! Du'h!!!!

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Headmaster

    App development

    Gave up because Apple are twats and customers think that if they use the word simple in the requirements it means cheap.

  13. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    Bla, bla, bla.. Etc.

    Apple protects the end user from idiot programmers that would suck the battery dry in minutes if they were allowed to. End of.

    Just look at Android, how it's impossible to get stable and low power drain. Always having to watch out for offending apps.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Just look at Android, how it's impossible to get stable and low power drain."

      "Always having to watch out for offending apps."

      That's a pretty fine contradictory statement.

      If it is impossible to get, then you don't have to do any watching out for it, as EVERY app would be an offender..

      1. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

        It's impossible unless you look out for what apps are misbehaving, as well as turn off Android crap that drains your battery (thanks to Googles insatiable apetite for knowing exactly what you do, and when and where you do it.)

        I bet you most people don't get 5 days' battery life on their Android phones. But it's possible at least on some models if you are very careful what you install, AND disable a shedload of Google's "essential" crap.

        Of course someone could get lucky with little to no effort, but they wouldn't know why in that case, and at any time in the future battery life could be compromised.

  14. Robin Bradshaw

    I cant wait for the follow on lawsuit where Adobe sue apple for not having support for flash

    Be careful what you wish for :P

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A solution...

    ... taking the long view though.

    Continue to support both platforms but lag new versions on Apple well behind Android and make sure Apple users know there's a better version on the other platform. Maybe make it cheaper too (without the extortionate fee apple takes from sales in their app store.) Slowly but surely Apple users are getting the message that there is an alternative and that despite the hype apple's global market share is only around 15%.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Liberté

    Levereging your dominance in one market (phone hardware) to control another (phone apps) even on your own platofrm is anti-competive, France is not the WIld West of free market capitaslism. Apple wil lose, eventually.

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