Londoners react with horror to Tube Chat initiative London’s commuters were plunged into terror this week as a shadowy organisation attempted to turn decades of convention on its head by encouraging people to talk to one another. It’s over 140 years since the capital’s inhabitants first learned to keep their gobs shut on underground trains or face the prospect of social …
I agree. What a stupid idea. Why waste all those Amazonian rainforests when all they needed to do was disable the automatic door openers? Then Tubists could share in the welcoming way us Overgrounders greet each other each morning ... "push the ffff...ing button you sleepyheaded w..ker".
Nice to know you have been noticed ;-)
According to the Standard the guy is an NHS worker hailing from Colorado (one of the more enlightened states of the Union I'd say, though others may not), from a small town where it's common to know and chat with pretty much everyone you meet in your day-to-day life (and because they weren't living in London, they were generally having a better day most of the time so the chat was more enjoyable). My background is similar and it's a facet of rural life that I do miss since becoming an urbanite.
I may go against the grain here, but I think it's a tragedy how insular people in London seem to be, and I bet there are more people on those trains than you care to acknowledge whose misery is in no small part due to the crippling loneliness of their lives, for which this prevailing attitude is far from blameless.
I think it's a good idea. It doesn't compel anyone to be sociable if they don't want to, and it might just end up making the odd few people a bit happier. Where's the harm?
"What's the harm?"
There's a reason why most people on the tube are normally either deep in a book or the newspaper, playing with their phone, or listening to something on headphones. It's to get through the journey as quickly as possible, while disturbing as few people as possible. And two (or more) people having a "chat" is not a chat - it's a public conversation with everyone in the immediate vicinity being forced to listen to it, whether or not they want to.
God knows the tube is stressful enough at rush hour, without people "chatting" all around us.
Correct me if I'm wrong (not that I need to say it) but aren't the buttons a way of saying "Feel free to approach me to chat" without the wearer needing to verbally accost randoms in a fruitless search for stimulating conversation?
IE feel free to read the paper, futz with your phone or stare blankly at the back of the head of the person in front of you if you like, this campaign won't affect you.
"OMG I went into a public environment and some of the people therein are having the temerity to audibly communicate with each other!!!eleventyone"
It's not for me to comment on why the tube is so stressful in the first place, I'll have to take your word for that, but why does hearing other people conversing make it more so?
I ask as someone who strongly values a bit of contemplative solitude himself, but would never expect to achieve it on public transport.
I live on the edge of a market town. If I head out into the countryside, everybody will stop and talk. But if I head into the town, conversation stops.
I think it's to do with population density. People are so far and few between in the woods and the fields that it's no great imposition to stop and have a conversation. But in the town centre on market day you're elbowing through the crowds and it's just not physically possible to say hello to everyone.
I'd agree with that. People in small towns and villages even walk along expecting to bump into someone they know. I've lived in a few places and population density does definitely have an effect on friendliness. Live in London you have a very tight personal space, and you have tbh a lot more hassles to deal with than the average stroll through a village, getting somewhere is a mission sometimes.
This is true. However...
Having lived in small places, and big places...London has an air of FOAD that I loathe. Maybe it is me. Maybe I have a face that people just want to punch. But every time I get on the effing Virgin tilt trains and struggle to sit without my shoulders being pushed into the next seat by the wonderful trapezoidal interior offering less space than an Ryanair/Easyjet cheap seat to Magawhatsit, then get to Euston, exchange 1 pee for 30p, get on the Northern line, attempt to get on again as somehow forcing my svelte 100kgs into a carriage that looks like Norris McWhirter should be overseeing for the Guiness Book of Records, then try not to touch the handrail with my actual skin in case one of the millions before me that morning decided not to wash their hands, then deal with the oppressive heat, then get expelled at the other end into blissful fresh^W less hot air to then walk to our office, avoiding the, what I assume is, litter collection but looks to be the entire contents of someone's bedroom, gone past all the lovely independent shops that seem to change each time I am there.....I usually don't feel like talking Screaming, usually, but not talking.
Meh.
Don't get me wrong I come from London, and have been happily living in much smaller places, not sure i would want to go back and live there permanently. I know a fair few who have lived in London and eventually ended up moving out. It is however a great place to be when you are in your prime drinking and going out years.
"...London has an air of FOAD that I loathe. Maybe it is me..."
Its not just you. London may very well be a great city but its inhabitants are, in the words of client and born and bred West Londoner, "a pack of miserable bastards". I got by playing the big dumb cheerful Aussie and just riding rough shod over their collective tough-guy act.
From the comments below, it sounds like they haven't got any better since the mid-90s.
Well said. you are spot on about London.
I have managed to avoid having to work in London (viz City/West End) for my whole working life despite living less then 40 miles from Bank.
No one has ever wanted to talk to each other. Now with every other person wearing (usually white) ear buds there is even less incentive to open your gob.
My wife often talks to people when she walks down the high street. Not button holing them or something weird but engaging in conversation as a natural part of other interactions like buying stuff, dodging out of the way, picking up something someone dropped and so on. Could be a friend, could be a stranger. Doesn't matter to her.
However if the kids go with her then to them, every utterance, every syllable out of her mouth is is an extreme embarrassment. So it seems from this anecdotal evidence the aversion to conversation outside the immediate friend/acquaintance group is learned, somehow, by urban kids while very young.
Maybe it's something learned at home because the kids don't seem to like conversation at home much either which is usually limited to mono-syllabic noises.
Although urban areas versus the countryside explains some of this, it can't be the whole picture. Because it's not cities or large towns in general; it's mainly bloody London. Glaswegians and Mancunians and Durhamites and Yorkers and Belfasters (Belfastians? Belfishers?) will happily chat with each other. Not as much as people in the countryside, no, but a hell of a lot more than bloody Londoners.
Well I'd point out Manchester does have some of that attitude and also Leeds not as much admittedly, worth noting Glasgow pop 2.3 million, Manchester pop 2.5 million, London pop 8.5 million.
Also worth noting central London, on the tube, the most crowded and busiest part of the city, yeah don't be suprised people haven't got time to pass the day. It can be quite diffferent on a night out, or as you move closer to the suburbs.
"Because it's not cities or large towns in general; it's mainly bloody London. Glaswegians and Mancunians and Durhamites and Yorkers and Belfasters "
Maybe it's just the sheer size of the urban area? In most other cities, it's usually only 10 minutes or so out into open countryside. I've never lived in London or even inside the M25, but I've spent time there and in conversation with customers, it seems many Londoners never leave the city other than to fly out on holiday to another country. Many have never, ever visited any other part of the UK. At all. Those that have, seem to know about the south coast and Brighton and have ambitions to retire there with no consideration or knowledge of other nicer and cheaper parts of the country. There seems to be a fear that everywhere except London has no pubs, no cinemas, no theatre etc.
it's not cities or large towns in general; it's mainly bloody London. Glaswegians and Mancunians and Durhamites and Yorkers and Belfasters (Belfastians? Belfishers?) will happily chat with each other.
Cmon. This is about chatting on the tube - the main reason we don't talk on the tube is that it is almost fucking impossible to do so. When I get on the tube with friends, often we don't talk on the tube because you have to get intimately close to each other or shout extremely loudly.
Most of the times that we regularly take the tube (eg, for commuting), it's so crowded that the only thing you can get close to is someone else's armpit, because you are crammed in like sardines.
It's unpleasantly warm in summer; I wear separate travelling clothes of shorts and t-shirt and then get changed in to work gear afterwards otherwise I get to work dripping with sweat.
Pretty much the only way to cope with that crowdedness, noise and heat is to zone out and pretend you are somewhere, anywhere else. Music helps. Reading helps. Having an awkward shouted conversation - even with a friend, let alone some random stranger - does not.
Other cities in the UK simply aren't comparable. People don't really talk on the Paris Metro either.
Similarly, if you go for a walk early in the morning, you'll find other walkers, joggers and dog-walkers much more likely to nod, smile and/or say hello. And the bloke emptying the bins in the park, and the copper who is thinking 'my shift is almost over' so intensely that telepathy could be a thing.
There are other places to stay apart from 'resort hotels'.
Small hotels where they speak little or no English are great places to stay and even (Shudder) converse with the locals.
Besides, who really wants to go abroad and meet the same people you ignore on the tube for 200+ days a year.
There's a reason I've got earphones in and am usually reading something, and this sort of thing is it. On my commute I'm perfectly happy in my own little bubble, hopefully not aware of other annoying distractions like people talking or playing music too loud via their shitty (usually Apple) earphones. And if you ever end up above ground, then add anyone talking on their mobile for longer than "I'm on the tube/train, I'll call you back in X mins" or similar.
The last thing I want is to end up in a carriage full of yapping/braying types forcing me to listen to them as they're so sodding loud.
> So long as I can get a "STFU and leave me alone" button.
I think you are missing the whole point. (but don't worry; it seems like pretty much everyone else is too, judging by the articles here and on the beeb, and by the tweets copied on both)
The badge is *inviting* chat, not trying to force it on anyone. If someone is wearing it, they are hoping that someone will see it and talk to them. They aren't wearing it as an excuse to arbitrarily start talking to people who aren't wearing one.
If you don't want anyone talking to you, that's fine -- just don't wear one and carry on as normal.
>>I think you are missing the whole point.
No, you are.
Being forced to stand opposite some hippy cretin wearing a "Tube Chat?" badge would massively increase social anxiety.
(Back in the day, social anxiety was known as the desire to 'punch someone in the face and run the f'k away' when they got too close, or worse, attempted any form of social interaction.)
> internalize the viewpoint of a middle-aged tabby cat
I prefer the attitude of a tortie[1] - in 5 nanoseconds go from contentedly purring to psychotic ball of knives..
[1] Although my current tortie is atypical - the only time she does the whole 'die die die' thing is if she's really, really frightened. Like when we try and grab her to take her to the vets for her annual MOT..
I recall going to Paris with the ex-wife when she was expecting. Not having covered 'my partner is up-the-duff' in school boy French, I added various helpful phrases to my lexicon, such as "ma femme est enceinte", just in case. I had learned a new word; enceinte - pregnant.
Pottering around on the Metro, I was intrigued by a sign that read "Il est interdit pour introducer des animaux dans l'enceinte de system Metropolitan".
Hang on... I thought. It is forbidden to introduce animals into pregnancy on the Metro? Do they have a problem with people breeding dogs down there? Is there an army of stripy jumper wearing farmers tupping their sheep in between the turnstiles?
The best concept I could find was that English used to refer to pregnancy as "the confinement" at one point. Then it becomes clear. You can't bring your pets within the confines of the Metro.
Je suis enceinte, pas un chat.
@Dr_N. How did I work for Radio Shack for so many years without coming across that?! I mean, I'd have thought that was an obvious one, as I did a good few months working for them in Canada. Mind you, I might have become even more confused had I tried to equate hifi speakers, pregnant things and the Metro.
I only remember this because of the time it happened to my sister, she was having dinner with her French exchange's family, the mother asked if she wanted any more food, and she replied "Non merci, je suis pleine".
Now, stick that in to most translation tools, and it will say it means "No thanks, I'm full", however in more common usage it means "No thanks, I'm pregnant".
As she was 13 at the time, a little embarrassing...
Many of the Londoners who want to interact with other people like they are other human beings have given up on the Big Smoke and moved to Bristol.
Maybe it helps that Bristol doesn't have a tube system, or even a bus system anyone uses. By foot, by bicycle, light rail, skateboard or supermarket trolley (depending on route and quantity of strong cider consumed) are acceptable forms of transport. Also, many a Bristolian considers it acceptable to spark up a 'jazz cigarette' as they stroll down the pavement in most parts of the city.
I usually sum up the differences between London and Bristol thus:
In London, if you fell down dead in the street, no body would notice, other than perhaps to tut because you'd had the impoliteness to be dead in their way.
In Bristol people would be sure to at least point and laugh, perhaps prop you up into a humorous pose, and maybe commemorate it in graffiti. Whilst smoking a joint and drinking cider.
Mr Roper, a man looking at a woman isn't a hate crime. Get over yourself.
Looking at people when they don't want you to is like reading their book over their shoulder or helping themselves to their crisps. There's an unspoken rule about staying in certain confines when in a crowded social space.
A man persistently staring in a way that makes a woman (or a man or a child) feel unsafe and targeted is a creep and could and probably should be seen a stalker. Or possibly as sociopath. Neither is welcome in a crowded tube carriage.
Mr Roper, a man looking at a woman isn't a hate crime.
It's quite clearly a microaggression though.
Once Hillary will have created the Department of Microdefense (DoM) to lead the War on Microaggressions and Nastiness (WOMAN), we should make the effort to learn from our US brethren.
"A man persistently staring in a way that makes a woman (or a man or a child) feel unsafe and targeted"
And how is that decided exactly? What constitutes "persistently staring?" 2 seconds? 5? 10? Looking once? Twice? Ten times? Looking anywhere between chin and feet? Is there a difference between how long, and where, an attractive young guy is allowed to look and a creepy old guy is allowed to look?
When you define crimes based on people's feelings and emotional responses instead of concrete specific acts you create a situation in which anyone could be found to have broken the law simply because someone else didn't like the look of them. That is not, by any stretch, a free society.
Surely not. What better a place to ask a complete stranger (ideally someone on holiday) where the nearest library is? They'll obviously not know, so you can then tell them that it is two stops back, 3rd street on the right from the north exit!
It's not just me that does this, is it? OK, those 4 pints help.
...but then I sit there muttering nonsense to myselves, rendering all the different Voices In My Head in individual voices, and happily chewing on strips of beef jerky pretending it's Human flesh.
Sometimes I even get the whole car to myselves! Woot! =-D
*mutter mutter cackle mumble giggle snort*
I think I sat across from you once, on a very crowded tube train. There was a definite smell of methanol about you and what looked like dried vomit on your filthy beard. I didn't mind at all because there was a ten foot diameter 'no go zone' around you, for some reason, and I could lean left and right, stretch my arms out, etc. I thought about asking you to tag along with me for the rest of the day but I didn't want to impose.
You were the muttering, dribbling loon covered in beef crumbs on the 7:33 from Barking.
I was the relaxed man opposite, smiling across at you and doing calisthenics while seated.
I think we'd make a great team. If you're interested In true love, and noshing on my jerky beef, contact me at Stamdard box no 666.
> "I was in Sydney fairly recently, on an escalator. I stood on the right, like a good little Londoner. Turns out in Sydney, you stand on the left and walk on the right. And unlike London, there are no signs to tell you - you just have to know."
Well, it is logical. When on the road, you keep left and overtake on the right.
>"Many years ago when I lived in ThatLondon my uncle from Edinburgh visited.
On the down escalator he turned to me with a look of complete bogglement
"It's a moving staircase - and people are walking on it!!"
To quote Jerry Seinfield "Walk up the damned thing. It's not a carnival ride!"
Standing on the left makes sense.
The majority of people are right handed and civilised countries drive on the left so that divers passing can shake hands. For the slightly less friendly, you can engage in high speed commerce.
Why does London do something so counter intuitive as to get people to stand on the right?
While we are wishing for things that will never happen...
.. in a manner that even the traditional avoidance of the annual bath cannot achieve: take along a durian (assuming you can handle the smell yourself).
It'll be at most two stops and the carriage will be empty. Unless you run into a troupe of Thai visitors, of course, but they tend to be rare :)
I met an old friend from my home town on the Tube, completely by accident. Naturally we got chatting. Getting off (At the station! OMG, how could you even think that!) she lost a contact lens and we spent the next half hour trying to find it. Last time I've talked to anyone on the Tube. I'm the one with the in-ear phones playing metal, reading a Kindle, with the FOAD badge. If you look at me I'll stare back and smile and smile and smile. You have been warned ;-)
Middle of the day and some occurrence on the Tube leads to a moment of conviviality. Fine. But yawning along between breakfast coffee at home and first cup of tea in the office is no time to chat. Likewise, between last cup of tea in the office and first coffee at home.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about this. Is it because acting as a hater is funny? OK maybe it is, for the first five minutes.
Just don't wear the frigging badge, end of story. Am I being unfunny?
The only real problem I see with the initiative is that even if one wanted, the tube is too loud to actually have a conversation.
I don't understand why people get so worked up about this. Is it because acting as a hater is funny? OK maybe it is, for the first five minutes.
Just don't wear the frigging badge, end of story. Am I being unfunny?
I don't think you're deliberately unfunny, but I suspect you may not live in London. It's a very important part of British humour to laugh about your own social quirks, so these foreigners have walked right into one of the major things Londoners laugh about.
The "complaints" are thus not really complaints, they're windups. People do talk, but it's just more fun to pretend they don't and come up with a sort of cultural rejection of an idea that can only have ever been dreamt up by a non-Londoner. All they've done is make themselves a target of pretty classic British humour. Those who genuinely complain didn't get the joke either, and anyone who expresses hate in this context needs his head examined, or is wilfully trolling.
You don't need to find someone wearing a badge, just look for the nearest nutter. There's one on every bus and railway carriage across the world. They'll happily while away your long commute with explanations about how their ex-wife was working for a secret multinational organisation above the UN and put thought control wires in all their underwear, and replaced the dog with a robot.
And always remember, if you don't know who the nutter on your bus or train is, it's probably you!
My brother married a small-town American. His horror, as a Londoner, on introducing her to the tube was very funny.
As was the reaction of people she said good morning to, as she got onto the carriage. And her reaction at being grumpily ignored.
The Metro in Brussels used to be similarly grumpy. Plus the buggers never stand aside from the doors to let you out - then wonder why they can't get on the damned train! I did once hold my umbrella horizontally and just barge about ten people backwards out of my way because they were being particularly obstructive. But mostly I fantasised about sharpening the end and becoming Sven the Impaler.
As was the reaction of people she said good morning to, as she got onto the carriage. And her reaction at being grumpily ignored.
There's something not quite ringing true about this Register article, I mean if you get on a tube to move around central London in the daytime, chances are that the majority of folk riding will not be Londoners, but will be tourists or new residents from around the world. Often in groups and they do talking in their little groups whilst moving around and bumping everyone with their enormous backpacks.
How do they catch on the the tube etiquette of pretending nobody else exists so quickly? Do they take lessons?
The lady saying good morning has a strong chance of addressing an affable Kiwi or a friendly Swede and should get a response.
My only experience of the Tube was on a holiday a long time ago..( at the very time they brought in the no drink bottles on airplanes, Getting through Heathrow as they tried to implement the new security theatre was traumatic, so timestamped quite thoroughly), and I recall noticing nobody speaking on the tube was using english - or at least any version intelligible to me.
Anyways.
Simply combine the tube-chat badge/logo with the red circled diagonal slash negation symbol (Ghostbusters-like), Variants could include the raised middle digit or a stamped FOAD in the style of MASH. Other designs will emerge as entrepreneurs get hold of the idea.
Make these available printed on buttons, Tshirts, backpacks whatever. Dodgy street vendors can selll them from the station entrances, adding to the local ambience.
Keeping ones mouth shut on the tube is a safety issue. You don't want all that brake dust, or dust off the pickup shoes getting into your lungs
Everytime I ride on the tube I have to spend the next three days with a clagged nose while all the black crap gets washed out by the snot
Ick. Thanks (not so much) for reminding me of that traumatic recollection of my last trip to The Smoke.
Looking back, I think that discovery of black snot after an afternoon's moderate tube travel was the pivotal moment at which I said to myself: I will NEVER live or work here.
'Où est le chat?' - 'Dans la metro.'
Well, get ready - on my next trip to London I will leave trail of terror. (Cue diabolical laughter.)
At first I did not realize what the issue was. After all, you caught the crummy bastard who came up with this act of subterfuge, so Shirley he would be dealt with in short order?
Then it finally dawned on me that the UK parliament abolished capital punishment years ago.
You all have my deepest sympathies.
People over here on the continent just have no idea about proper transport etiquette and behavior. They sit there making eye topic, smiling at you, even occasionally, making the dreaded attempt at conversation! "Hallo", even. Dear lord!
Don't they teach kids anything over here? Everyone knows that the only correct way to act on public transport is to look at the ground or out the window, make absolutely no eye contact with anyone ever, and to shield yourself in a small bubble of personal space, until your spat out at the other end of your journey! Anything else is absolute blasphemy!
This probably makes more sense up here. A "Tube" is an idiot. So "Tube Chat" makes sense in a Scottish context.
And I live in a little village, although it is expected that you will nod, smile or say "hello/morning" to each person you pass, thou shalt not engage in actual conversation unless you know that person.
Clearly they haven't done their research/ homework on psychology, animal behavioral biology, and social interaction.
Based on psychology, the tube (subway), elevator (lift), escalator and other public transportation all are consideration a box, outside of the rider's comfort zone.
Based on animal behavior, we humans like to form groups, small interact-able groups. Humans have done so long ago when finding allies and mates. That's how close friends are formed. Similarly, those outside of the circles are taken with caution and default as outsiders or enemies. Tiger, birds, bees, a whole lots of animals do the same (except penguins because if they don't they freeze to death).
When we force or place random strangers into the same box, it become harder to interaction both due to the comfort zone and too many people. The more we put in, the fewer the interaction because they all act as outsiders/ bystanders (psychology). If there were fewer people, there may be some interaction possible.
One exception is when those aren't strangers but known friends, then it wouldn't matter the extra tube-chatter talking with them.
Another exception would be the reason these guys do it, too friendly or those that put their guards down (beer anyone?). The only problem is the chat they gave only made the uncomfortable even more uncomfortable.
If they want to interact with random strangers, they need to lower their own guards as well as to let the stranger feel comfortable. Need an example? Get a city map and ask for directions. If you failed to get anyone to talk, either you're doing it wrong or the city doesn't need a map.
Also don't ask anything from strangers that have one of the following event them, headphones on, facebook-ing, gaming or sleeping. They are enjoying themselves, so stop poking our comfort zone.
To be honest, I think that instead of these "chat" buttons, you need some to give to Londoners saying "have some manners, you miserable twunts"! I love visiting London and have lost count of how many times I've been there (first class on a train from Manchester to London is good), but the tube is chock-full of people who would push their own frail grandmas onto the underground tracks to gain that extra second of time exiting a train. The British on the whole are OK, it's only in gaggles at footie matches or London underground that they becomes wankers.
The Tube is your own personal hell (or heaven) and isn't there to be interrupted.
Unless you want it to be. Maybe you want a chat. Except nobody else wants to hear you chat what can only be complete rubbishy small talk. "Oh i see you have a badge, so do I, do you live in London? Me neither, on your way to work (in the morning) or home (in the evening), what do you do in work".
You're now interfering with my peace and quiet and as the Tube is fairly noisy, you're probably compensating by speaking loudly so now everyone in the carriage can hear you. This just isn't a great place to have a chat.
A "fancy a coffee" badge sponsored by Starbucks would be a better idea, a "Trafalgar Square at 4 o'clock chat" badge could be performance art, a "20% OAP discount at Sam's fish and chip shop between 12 and 2" could well drive custom if the old dears could read all that on a small badge.
To me "Tube chat" is like "Motorway chat".. the impracticality of it should have nixed this from the outset altho it has made for good reading of aggrieved travellers.
solve this issue fast
print clone stickers
visit the toilets, place on doors n above urinals
then we can all crap and piss and chat about, well what comes to mind, the price of a ticket, over crowding?
Sadly as i think everyone should be banned from speaking, passing pleasantries, discussing the weather, talking about what food they have eaten, may eat in the future..
Every person i've ever worked with could have been gagged or dead,the amount of use the jibbering proles are.
So anyway needless to say, unless your showing a bit of cleavage, and your nice and single and flirty, take your words elsewhere..
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