Post-Brexit UK.gov must keep EU scientists coming, say boffins

Attracting and retaining EU talent remains a top concern for UK science following Brexit, according to today’s House of Lords Select Committee meeting about EU membership and UK science. David Phoenix, vice-chancellor and chief executive of London South Bank University, Patrick Vallance, president of pharmaceuticals R&D at …

[James 51]

Now we've 'taken control back' we can put criteria like if you're smart you can come over. Of course that is if May (and every PM that follows her) thinks that the Breixteers can stomach brain draining experts from other countries instead of blowing raspberries as them from the white cliffs of Dover.

[Paul Shirley]

There's the real possibility that any brain drain is UK -> EU.

Brexit directly threatens EU -> UK immigration, from movement restrictions & the hostile sentiment here. Most countries have always been very happy greasing the wheels of immigration for higher level scientists, all the way to offering citizenship if needed. A future where UK->EU movement is still easy for the skilled is very possible and a net outflow very believable.

By the time our political scum work out how to talk down the leave vote enough to compete for talent, it will be too late.

[oxfordmale78]

In the current climate I can see a UK-->Rest of world brain drain happening. I am actually one of those EU citizens that arrived here without a job to join my Spanish girlfriend (now wife). I found a PhD shortly afterwards and have been a high rate tax payer for over a decade now. However, after the Brexit vote I am considering whether I want to raise my family in a country that dislikes immigrants so much they are happy to forfeit a large percentage of economic growth for it. After my children have finished primary school, we may return back to Europe and never come back.

[werdsmith]

The people of the UK generally don't dislike immigrants. There is a sub-layer of fucking idiots that have a problem with immigrants, but there is also a few more who, amongst other concerns about the EU, are concerned with unabated population growth and its effect on the nations ability to handle those numbers.

The problem is that we can't discuss population growth abstracted from the origins of the population, because there is another layer of virtue signallers who beat down any constructive addressing of this matter using their weapons and trump cards of emotive words and guilt.

Reasons for the vote to leave the EU are manifold, suggesting it was because the nation "dislikes immigrants so much" makes you just about as guilty as those you accuse.

Personally I voted remain, despite there being a lot that I dislike about the EU.

[Warm Braw]

We can't discuss population growth abstracted from the origins of the population

There wouldn't be a whole lot of point in doing so. For example - is the "immigrant" EU population largely going to say here for a few years and then return? The policy response to that would be more family housing and more school places, but little investment in additional health or elderly care. Are Commonwealth citizens going to remain for life and bring over more of their family and marry preferentially with people from their original country of origin? The policy response to that would have to be different. Unless you look at the different patterms of immigration and the different goals of immigrants - some of which will be correlated with their origin even if not entirely determined by it - you have no information on which to plan a response.

The problem is not talking about it, the problem is that there is no policy response. If provision were being made for the increasing population - more schools, more housing, more GPs, etc, then there wouldn't be the tensions in local communities there now are. And it's not a question of money - the incomers are generating sufficient economic output to pay for the services their presence requires, the government is simply not choosing to use the revenue for that purpose.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we've 'taken control back' we can put criteria like if you're smart you can come over. Of course that is if May (and every PM that follows her) thinks that the Breixteers can stomach brain draining experts from other countries instead of blowing raspberries as them from the white cliffs of Dover.

Yes, but does nothing to the dumb ones you have here. Until you come up with a model that allows you to throw the dumb ones out you won't improve much - all you get is inbreeding :).

[Anonymous Coward]

the Breixteers can stomach brain draining experts from other countries instead of blowing raspberries as them from the white cliffs of Dover.

Ah, but at least that's done in style.. :)

[VinceH]

"Of course that is if May (and every PM that follows her) thinks that the Breixteers can stomach brain draining experts from other countries instead of blowing raspberries as them from the white cliffs of Dover."

Scientists have found out what happened - we now know there is a particular type of human - and despite putting up a strong appearance here in the Ook, they're probably everywhere.

The problem now is dealing with them.

[Faux Science Slayer]

No more UEA Faux Science !

STEM does not include AGW fraud...."Spencer Sorcery on Magic Gas" at FauxScienceSlayer

While there read the Royal Society tab on the elitist scribe role....

[theModge]

It gets worse

Research Fellows and other early career researchers are often on fairly short contracts, often as little as 4 months. That means that for those already jumping through the visa hoops have to reapply every for 4 months (some rationalities can't have working visas longer than their contracts) with the stress and above all else cost that entails. That they continue to put up with this never ceases to amaze me - if I was in the shoes of my Chinese colleges I'd have left long ago. If the same applied to EU researchers I can't help but assume a proportion of them would leave and that would hit my research group very hard.

[Bloakey1]

Re: It gets worse

<snip>

"That they continue to put up with this never ceases to amaze me - if I was in the shoes of my Chinese colleges I'd have left long ago."

<snip>

Why would you steal their footwear? it would probably be too small anyway.

Who needs research? We could go back to things that are traditionally British and none of your foreign muck bandied about by idle creme de menth swigging long haired foreigners. I would suggest the following:

Matches coated in phosphorous.

Camp coffee.

Textiles.

Spotted Dick.

Steam Trains.

Slaves.

Arms.

Coal.

Iron.

Steel.

British Army.

Et Al.

We could make this s̶e̶p̶t̶i̶c̶ sceptered isle great once again and we could challenge the US Empire for hegemony.

Right, I am off to the recruiting office tomorrow, I would look good in khaki and would like to be exported as well.

Exits left singing Soldiers of the Queen.

[Pascal Monett]

"attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

Sorry, but Brexit means that is over. You have specifically voted the EU out, so there is no incentive for EU students to deal with you any more.

Next question ?

[Bloakey1]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"Sorry, but Brexit means that is over. You have specifically voted the EU out, so there is no incentive for EU students to deal with you any more."

<snip>

Je pete dans votre direction generale monsieur grenouille.

Hmmm, on a serious note, they voted the EU out? Linguistic tic or perception? I thought they voted themselves out not the EU.

[Paul Shirley]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

Oh, I think so many leave voters demanding less EU immigrants on their precious island is closer to demanding EU out than UK out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

Oh, I think so many leave voters demanding less EU immigrants on their precious island is closer to demanding EU out than UK out.

Bwahaahahahahahaa! Another whiney, bitter Remainderer, resentful that democracy gave The Wrong Answer, eh? And let's try and sum up all the Leave campaign as Little Britain rascists, because the EU has been such a huge success?

You'll presumably agree that we really shouldn't have given the hoi polloi the vote, when the urban liberals know what's best.

[Pen-y-gors]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"You'll presumably agree that we really shouldn't have given the hoi polloi the vote, when the urban liberals know what's best."

Given the result of the referendum, there is a lot to be said for that approach. After all, the only reason for the referendum was the arrogance of Call-me-Dave who put his doomed attempts to hold his party together ahead of the interests of the country.

[Paul Shirley]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"You'll presumably agree that we really shouldn't have given the hoi polloi the vote, when the urban liberals know what's best."

My position is we should allow an informed public to vote. Actual effort has to be made to honestly inform them. That attempts to misinform voters to influence a vote should have career ending penalties or worse. That deliberate media misinformation should have business threatening penalties (and for Europe that needed to start when BJ got his first EU reporting job decades ago).

And in an ideal world we'd also come up with a less damaging way to register protest votes and avoid issue hijacking.

But most of all I'd like sore winners to FOAD.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"My position is we should allow an informed public to vote. Actual effort has to be made to honestly inform them."

Ah. So not enough people were informed that after the recession, depression, the wars with Russia including a nuclear exchange and the obliteriation of western civilisation, they would be precisely $amount worse off on $date.

The standard of debate in the referendum was appalling at best on both sides, and would be unsettling in a primary school playground. While "leave" managed to be xenophobic and occasionally racist, "remain" maintained an awful level of bigotry throughout the campaign (bigotry; Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.), and worse were patronising to the very people they were trying to persuade! This precluded any actual discussions of the issues that concerned people. I'd suggest that losing was a very direct result of talking at people, instead of talking to them!

Even if voting to leave the EU is accepted as a protest vote against a metropolitan elite ignoring the frustrated screams of the lower classes, then i'd suggest that ignoring these frustrated screams now would be... unwise.

Labour have positioned themselves as being the party who want to overturn the referendum, ignore the will of the voters (most of whom are generally recognised as being traditional labour voters) and keep the UK in the EU against the expressed will of the population. If it worked, it's going to leave the UK with zero credibility or influence within the EU, and much of the traditional Labour member base is going to be looking for a new party to support.

Meanwhile, the conservatives have quietly positioned themselves as being the party of the people who accept the people vote, and are determined to make things work for everybody in society. They aspire only to heal our fractured society etc, etc etc.

SPOT THE PROBLEM.

[werdsmith]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

It's not democracy as we have come to know it. We vote at general elections knowing that if things don't work out the way we want then we can have another go in five years. So we can take one bunch of idiot narcissistic sociopaths out and put another lot of the same in if our consensus chooses.

This EU thing is a plebiscite to get an indication of the majority of public will. Any decision made on the basis of that reference to the people will take decades to fix if it turns out to be wrong. That's not democracy, that's putting the passengers in charge of flying the plane.

In democracy we choose people to make decisions, and if we don't like their decisions then we show them the door and get new people to hate. The EU referendum is the population making the decision, and evidently most of them hadn't a clue what they were doing.

May not having a clue is also a trait of the elected government, but that's another discussion altogether.

[Jess]

Democracy? My arse.

If this were democracy, we would be seeking to reverse the move from the EFTA to the EEC (and not voiding our membership of the EEA).

If this were democracy the nations who voted to remain would be getting the opportunity to decide whether they wish to remain with Britain outside the EU or not.

The question asked was about membership of the EU. Not membership of the EEA. Not whether we should give up our human rights.

The result was 26:28 The government is making the outrageous assumption that over 27 of those 28 as well as wishing to leave the EU also wish to leave the EEA and chuck out Johnny Foreigner and furthermore, also want to give up their human rights.

Democracy? My Arse.

[Voland's right hand]

Re: Democracy? My arse.

The government is making the outrageous assumption that over 27 of those 28 as well as wishing to leave the EU also wish to leave the EEA and chuck out Johnny Foreigner and furthermore, also want to give up their human rights.

Please share what you are smoking. While smoking cool stuff is only sometimes a crime, not sharing it definitely is.

FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE IS A INTEGRAL EEA CONDITION. YOU CANNOT BE IN EEA WHILE "Taking Control".

As far as EFTA, that train has moved on in the meantime. The Norwegian prime minister was very clear that THERE IS NO SEAT for UK on it. They have signed 20+ trade agreements different from the Eu ones with various countries in the world which will all need to be renegotiated if UK joins. That is going to happen only if Lucifer drives a snow plough.

So, once again, please share what you are smoking.

[Don Dumb]

Re: Democracy? My arse.

"If this were democracy,"

If this were a democracy, the Prime Minister would actually be elected.

Lest we forget no one voted for Teresa May to be Prime Minister and her party are in complete charge despite having less than half the vote in the last general election. This was never a democracy, despite Leavers telling everyone to accept democracy.

Considering how little was/is known about what Brexit means (and, no Teresa, it doesn't mean 'Brexit') If this were a democracy the government would negotiate the withdrawal offer and then put a referendum to the public to ask us "is this really what you voted for?" - my guess is that many people who voted Out won't be happy with the result of the negotiations any more than the Remainers.

After all, once you've had a Referendum to endorse or reject government policy then you can't really not have Referendums every time.

[Bloakey1]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"Bwahaahahahahahaa! Another whiney, bitter Remainderer, resentful that democracy gave The Wrong Answer, eh? And let's try and sum up all the Leave campaign as Little Britain rascists, because the EU has been such a huge success?"

<snip>

I must say at this point that I have seen a definite trend in Brexit coves and their postings. Their mellifluous ducet tones, reasoned argument and general all round education is a joy to behold. When they say chuck out all the foreigners it does not take much textual exigesis to understand that they actually want to throw out all of those rum foreign coves. It is a shame that those who voted remain do not have such clarity of thought, tenacity of mind and insist on using big hard to understand words and concepts such as economy, Immigration, single market etc.

Well done lads, your erudition and deep thought is a joy to behold.

I have never seen such a polarised Britain in my 50 odd years here and abroad. The repercussions from this will be seen for decades.

Ahh, and to the man on the underground who called me a fscking spic 'en passant' this morning. It is called a suntan and yes that was a Portuguese newspaper but could have been any number of languages including English.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

I must say at this point that I have seen a definite trend in Brexit coves and their postings. Their mellifluous ducet tones, reasoned argument and general all round education is a joy to behold.

LOL - are you related to AmanFromMars by any chance (who seems to have retired to Mars, probably to keep the various NASA explorers off his rose garden)?

[VinceH]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"are you related to AmanFromMars"

I understood what Bloakey1 was saying - sadly, El Reg lacks a sarcasm icon, which might help others - whereas I didn't have a clue with AManFromMars' various outpourings. Therefore, I conclude not.

[Bloakey1]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"LOL - are you related to AmanFromMars by any chance (who seems to have retired to Mars, probably to keep the various NASA explorers off his rose garden)?"

Quod Erat Demonstrandum !

[werdsmith]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"Bwahaahahahahahaa! Another whiney, bitter Remainderer, resentful that democracy gave The Wrong Answer, eh? And let's try and sum up all the Leave campaign as Little Britain rascists, because the EU has been such a huge success?"

Your written demeanour here tells all that is needed about your position.

[Triggerfish]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary" @AC

Y'know what AC there were people at all levels voting leave and likewise remain, so categorising people in such a way shows the narrowness of your views.

Also frankly I'd have a lot more respect for these sort of posts if instead of glorying in your pyrrhic victory so blind to the fuck up you have created, you actually came up with some solutions for the mess, but none of you posting this sort of drivel seem able to do that do you? You can't even post under your own handle. Let alone come up with something constructive.

[Dr_N]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"Bwahaahahahahahaa! Another whiney, bitter Remainderer, resentful that democracy gave The Wrong Answer, eh?"

The votes have been cast and the sovereign will of the El Reg commentards has been made known by the number of downvotes you have.

Breiteers rules mean that you now have to STFU after loosing the vote.

So hush now, grown-ups are talking.

[CowardlyLion]

Re: "attracting European students and staff members to the UK was necessary"

"Hmmm, on a serious note, they voted the EU out? Linguistic tic or perception? I thought they voted themselves out not the EU.

Fog in Channel. Continent cut off.

[Anonymous Coward]

why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

If the thing that makes these people worth bringing into this country is of value then why is this country unwilling to pay to develop the same thing in it own population?

The reason that outside help is now required is simply because this country has reduced investment in the UK people continuously for the last 40 years. We used to have Engineering and Science that the rest of the world paid us for but we destroyed or sold it all off for a quick buck.

This country used to have a steady supply of people who had access to high quality education so as to keep this country in with the technical leaders, where have they all gone? yes some migrated to other countries who were buying in talent but unless those countries had a policy of investment in their own population then when the leavers stop working then they had to buy in talent again.

Here is both the problem and solution, if you want to have a steady supply of people who are a necessity to business then the businesses have to stop thinking in terms of quick cash grabs and return to steady income.

It isn't rocket science, if you do not invest to obtain local resources then you have to buy in at a increasingly higher cost as it becomes increasingly a sellers market. You can move your business to where the resources is but of course that makes is even more of a sellers market in an environment when your business is the outsider.

It always surprised me just how stupid people are not to understand that taking forever can only work if you invest as well.

As to brexit, never was the cry of "why have you forsaken us" so loud and stupidly unexpected

[Paul Shirley]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

You're talking about a different problem, getting skilled workers. What's under immediate threat is progress enabled by collaboration and cross fertilisation between researchers. Usually fairly short term arrangements, not life long commitment.

UK loses 2 ways here, it's researchers miss that contact and the new thinking it brings and UK institutions miss capturing any of the benefits. Throwing money at creating more local researchers won't magically make them more creative or intelligent and they'd still be stuck in their own isolated talent pool. A second rate solution with second rate results.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

All part and parcel of the same problem.

you say "immediate threat is progress enabled by collaboration and cross fertilisation between researchers", I say how did we go from being the leader in so many fields to being just another hanger on.

You say we would loose out through not collaborating, I say, why not return to other countries vying to collaborate with us. We didn't just stand still whilst the other countries caught up, we actively moved towards a third world society with the associated loss of harmony, identity and sense of direction.

I am not saying it will be easy or cheap but we either can invest in a long term solution to the sickness or just keep going until we have obtain the third world state that "quick fix only" gives.

Then it wont be so much of a brain drain as who can still escape

[RIBrsiq]

@AC

While every country on the planet should invest in better education, more STEM and so on, it's not strictly a money problem.

The fundamental problem is the scarcity of the required calibre of brains -- the basic fool-to-genius ratio of the human race, if you will.

You see (or I hope you do; or would, if it's pointed out), it stands to reason that the distribution of such raw talent is random and uniform over the entire human population on the planet. And the percentage that would be born in any given country is more-or-less the same as said country's population of the human race.

The UK's is not a particularly-large population, obviously.

You can of course do your best to enhance the likelihood that any such talent in your country has a better chance to be discovered, nurtured and developed to its full potential -- that's what all the investment in education and so on is about, essentially. But in an increasingly competitive "market" where other countries are also pouring resources into similar efforts of their own, this does not alleviate the need to try and... attract such people from other countries -- the exact opposite of making them jump through hoops for the privilege of working for you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @AC

You see (or I hope you do; or would, if it's pointed out), it stands to reason that the distribution of such raw talent is random

That's why different Olympic sports often have very different "diversity" quotients?

Ooops. Put the lid on that can of worms now, if you would!

[John Smith 19]

@RIBrsiq

"You see (or I hope you do; or would, if it's pointed out), it stands to reason that the distribution of such raw talent is random and uniform over the entire human population on the planet. And the percentage that would be born in any given country is more-or-less the same as said country's population of the human race.

The UK's is not a particularly-large population, obviously."

So on this theory the largest nation should should win always.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11926364/Nobel-Prize-winners-Which-country-has-the-most-Nobel-laureates.html

And yet after the US the UK, France, Germany and Sweden are the next biggest winners, not India, China or Russia.

So perhaps it's more quality than quantity to begin with?

Or maybe it's being open and welcoming to foreign talent.

[RIBrsiq]

Re: @RIBrsiq

>> So perhaps it's more quality than quantity to begin with?

>> Or maybe it's being open and welcoming to foreign talent.

My main argument in a nutshell is that it's mostly the latter -- being open and welcoming -- that's the more significant factor in the long run as other countries put in enough resources in fixing their education and so on, as time goes by.

Obviously the quality of the infrastructure available is a factor. As is the momentum of where on the planet the best people in a given field reside at any given moment in time. That's why a lot of early modern physics is written in German. That's why many of the heavier synthetic elements in the periodic table have US-centric names, while most of the named celestial objects have Arabic names. Etc.

More pertinently, that's why talented individuals will willingly jump through some hoops to go to a place that gives them the best chance to pursue their particular thing most effectively. But the number of hoops they're willing to jump through will go down as their native countries make available to them more and more resources. And many major economies are increasingly doing just this -- look at what the UAE and KSA are doing, for example, to name a couple of non-usual suspects.

Ultimately, in the specific case of BrExit, if the UK makes it harder for EU nationals to work in a stable environment in the UK, then many of them will ask themselves why they should bother and decide to go elsewhere. Coupled with loss of EU funding for research in the UK -- or more accurately redirection of said funding to other places in the EU -- this could be disastrous, from a UK PoV.

[allthecoolshortnamesweretaken]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

Why not indeed? All it would take is to elect a government that actually does just that.

[tiggity]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

And to have decent pay & prospects with your science degree, instead of first steps "on the ladder" being lots of badly paid short term contracts.

.. Is it any wonder so many people do less intellectually demanding but massively more rewarded (in general - obviously a few v.well paid sci jobs & a few low paid legal / accounting jobs) options like accounting & law.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

"They" did. "They" gave a free MicroBit to every 12 year old school child. What more could possibly be done?

[Voland's right hand]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

Science excellence is born in a competitive environment. Competition in education pretty much equates to selection. Yeah, sure, middle class often gets advantage in that and mythical social mobility through equal education for all happens only to few lucky ones (that is still better than none which is the case with the current system). That is the deal, take it or leave it. That is how the education systems works in countries which excel in science relative to their GDP and overall development.

So, now, have a look at what happens in the UK when the prime minister suggests reintroducing selection in education and re-establishing competitiveness in education. Half of the parliament is having a hissy fit.

Well, then any chances of UK promoting science and education as needed for science will be null and void. We will remain in the current situation which is the bombed out university of Aleppo producing better software engineers than any UK university (that is the result of the last year world university computing competition). This will continue until UK learns that competitive environment in schools including _BOTH_ grades and selection is essential for "promoting science".

[strum]

Re: why not promote science/engineer in UK Education instead?

>Science excellence is born in a competitive environment.

Really? I'd have thought (as these British boffins have said) it's more about co-operation.

There's a tiny bit of forced competition, come awards time, but 99% of scientific effort is collegiate.

Which rather nullifies your ideological desire to bring back secondary moderns.

[cortland]

How about

0.0015 percent taxes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hold on! Isn't that the same GSK....

..that has done shit like transfer administration, production & R&D facilities offshore at the expense of UK workers? And the same GSK that transferred patent and brands for its drugs to Puerto Rico, and to Ireland to dodge UK taxes?

As usual. Big fat bastard corporation doesn't really want to pay UK salaries much of the time, or any UK taxes that it can avoid. But wants access to UK courts and legal system, privileged lobbying access to our government, and to have ready access to such UK research as it chooses to conduct here.

Hypocrites.

[Pen-y-gors]

Vox populi, vox dei

The people have spoken, they must be obeyed.

The ballot paper clearly said "Do you want to leave the EU and get rid of ALL those nasty smelly garlic-eating foreigners who clog up the HMRC paying their damn taxes" and 52% said they wanted to, so the government must get rid of all the nasty, smelly etc - regardless of how much use they are to the country. Deport all the scientists, doctors, nurses, dentists and Polish plumbers now - it's what the people want.

</rant>

[allthecoolshortnamesweretaken]

There still are options.

[dougflump]

Lack of investment( not just of money) in many fields has been the mantra of Blightly for a long long time, poncing of other countries investments by differentials in pay is ethically the pits,

Always people who haven't been hit by massive wage cuts stick up for importing cheap labour.

And robbing other countries investment of their talent and skills quite frankly stinks.

The relentless wave of super high wages/pensions at higher management levels per the Nhs/railways/local councils/food retailers etc as the efficiency of our countries infra structure is at an all time low ( 5 hours road closures for a minor accident etc)

Ghettoization and alienation for many folk all for a cheaper worker, it smacks of short term thinking of the worst kind.

Science ( and Art) needs a degree of freedom of thought not necessarily based on purely monetary terms.

However we have had a long history of blaming the working classes for all our woes.....so here it goes again.

[Anonymous Coward]

Countries' talent and skills

And robbing other countries investment of their talent and skills quite frankly stinks.

Politicians like to think of "talent" as being their own (or, charitably, their country's), but they are quite mistaken. These talents and skills belong to the people who wield them, not to the nation-states where these people were born or which possibly paid for their abilities to be developed.

You don't "rob" countries of their scientists, artists, and engineers - barring an outright kidnapping, this is a logical impossibility. You create an environment which attracts these individuals. Part of this enticement can be monetary; however it can not be purely monetary if you want to attract the most capable people: they also need to enjoy their work and their life.

Fueling a wave of xenophobia by asking your citizens a very divisive question, where you known beforehand that no answer will satisfy most of the people, is not the way to achieve this goal. Placing your best minds in cramped conditions (have you visited a research lab at a leading UK university recently? It's an education in its own) and underpaying and underfunding them (check out a lecturer's salary in London and you'll see what I mean) is also not the best move.

Just an outsider looking in.

[Andrew Jones 2]

I obviously have a very dirty mind.... I was expecting an entirely different article after that headline......

[jzl]

Single Issue

We voted to leave the EU.

We didn't vote for anything else the more vocal Brexiters are clamouring for. We didn't vote to "take control" of our borders. We didn't vote to restrict free movement. All we voted for was to end membership of the European Union. That was the question on the ballot.

The result was so close that there's no way it can be interpreted as a mandate for any of the leave campaign's specific pledges. The only thing that can be said is that we answered the actual question that was asked. No more.

[Don Dumb]

Re: Single Issue

@jzl - "We voted to leave the EU.

We didn't vote for anything else the more vocal Brexiters are clamouring for."

I agree with your point but I would also say - How do we know what people voted for? I know several that voted out on protest grounds, a vote of 'Screw Cameron and Osborne'.

That's why I can only see that the negotiation result should be put in front of another referendum. We have no way of knowing if the UK's negotiating position even reflects what the majority of out voters were expecting. They were told so many different things by various different Out groups is difficult to know what people actually brought and who from. Some might even have been under the impression that the NHS is getting a much needed £350M a week uplift and now that it isn't getting that might justifiably feel defrauded.

This is one of the problems with referenda, with a representational democracy you vote for the person you feel will best lead/govern, pretty clear cut. With a referendum you vote for a thing, not knowing exactly what that thing is and then the representative decides anyway.

[xyzw]

Close the borders!

I thought the whole point about Brexit was to close the borders?

I thought "Britain is too lazy and too fat" and the point of Brexit was to actually force pure British people can develop the UK to a new empire fit for the 21st century!

[phuzz]

Re: Close the borders!

Yep, we certainly want to keep these scientists out because not only are they foreigners, what's worse, they're intellectuals as well.

[Bloakey1]

Re: Close the borders!

"Yep, we certainly want to keep these scientists out because not only are they foreigners, what's worse, they're intellectuals as well."

They are probably pinko commie homosexualists <sic> as well. Ban the lot of them and think of the children, or at least the English children.

[codejunky]

Hmm

"The government should consider "[taking] EU students out of the net migration target”, Greenaway urged."

Why? This is the same backward thinking which caused the problems in the first place, the EU deserves no special treatment. Taking back control of our country and borders means we can welcome scientists and those with the skills we need. Instead of EU privilege (not European, only the members of the protectionist group) we can be fair and treat everyone the same, attracting talent and not showing favouritism based on where they are from.

This is where I wish the remainers would stop moaning and instead use this opportunity to back the globalist leavers who dont want to shut out the world but instead want to join the world. The outcome would likely be better than remaining in the EU though.

[codejunky]

Re: Hmm

Interesting. 5 down votes and not one explanation. I am curious if it is leavers who want to pull out of globalisation or remainers hating the idea of being nice to anyone who voted leave. Of course it could be opposition to being fair to everyone no matter where they are from and a desire to watch the country burn (regardless of which way their vote was cast).

[SeanC4S]

No island is an island. You need a wall as well.

[Jess]

I thought we'd had enough of experts.

It is the loss of freedom of movement that is the real killer. (Or to be the serious risk of that) that is causing the issues.

A friend of mine who is a scientist has canceled his plans for a £100,000 extension to his house, and is planning to move to Germany. (German wife.)

I'm guessing that is not uncommon in the Science sector. I'm guessing the tech sector will be hit the same once we leave the single market.