back to article HDMI hooks up with USB-C in cables that reverse, one way

HDMI Licensing, the administrator of the High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) spec, has decided that the time has come to do away with dongles and given the thumb's up to USB-C. “The HDMI cable will utilize the USB Type-C connector on the source side and any HDMI connector on the display side,” HDMI licensing says. “ …

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      30 Hz is fine for playing movies, the overwhelming majority of which are 24 fps, which is realistically almost all the 4K people will be playing from a device with USB-C out to HDMI in (i.e. from a phone, tablet or laptop to a TV/monitor)

      If you are gaming in 4K@60fps or whatever you will have a device with HDMI out and connects with a standard HDMI cable to your 4K display.

      The long term fix will be yet another speed upgrade for USB to 20 Gbps, which will allow 4K@120 fps 4:2:0 at 10 bit color depth - that covers the highest possible spec for future 4K broadcast TV.

      I wonder what they will call it, supercalifragilistic speed USB?

      1. phuzz Silver badge
        Coat

        "If you are gaming in 4K@60fps"

        ...then you'll either need to be loaded, or willing to set your sights no higher than Quake 2

        >>> mine's the one with some SLI'ed graphics cards in the pocket

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "30 Hz is fine for playing movies, the overwhelming majority of which are 24 fps"

        But most broadcast material is 50Hz.

        1. Charles 9

          And most broadcast material isn't in 4K resolution. Anything 1080p and below, HDMI can handle easily up to 60Hz.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "And most broadcast material isn't in 4K resolution."

            But some is - in the UK at least - and lots more soon will be...

            Sky are already busy moving customers to Sky Q.

            1. Sam Liddicott

              Apart from LOTR which 4K streamed TV movies were shot at more than 24 fps?

              Why insist on repeating 24fps frames to the TV 60hz?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          For broadcast material at 50/60 Hz you will almost certainly NOT be using a USB-C connector to your display. Your phone, tablet and laptop can't receive ATSC or DVB-T, after all. If you think you're going to be offered the chance to live stream 4K at 50/60 Hz to your mobile device anytime soon, I've got a bridge to sell you in downtown London.

      3. Down not across

        I wonder what they will call it, supercalifragilistic speed USB?

        LudicruoUSB

      4. Captain DaFt

        "I wonder what they will call it, supercalifragilistic speed USB?"

        Ludicrous speed USB. The cables will be plaid.

  2. death&taxes

    'pfaff'?

    1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: 'pfaff'?

      That one left me puzzled, too - I only ever knew 'Pfaff' as a maker of sewing machines.

      1. dvd

        Re: 'pfaff'?

        Yep. I've never spelled faff with a "p".

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Joke

      > 'pfaff'?

      Yes, adding extra letters to the beginning of words is confusing as it turns normal words into complete djiberish.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Djiberish indeed. Drinksh all round for that ...

        (If you have a djinn and tonic, is that a genie in a bottle?)

        Sorry, it's late.

      2. Wayland

        The mddile of wrods can be mxxied up thye aer sitl radeble.

  3. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    So now you can fry your TV too

    Well, not content with frying your phone, you can now fry your TV too.

    1. Planty Bronze badge

      Re: So now you can fry your TV too

      Only if you are are a cheapskate and buy your cables from ebay and car boot sales.

  4. Phil Kingston

    One cable to rule them all!

    1. Omgwtfbbqtime

      you'll still need a cable tie to (in the darkness) bind them!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Reminds me of this; XKCD - Standards.

  5. Herby

    Wonderful thing about standards....

    There are so many of them.

    Oh, and not everyone follows them, and they make their on "modifications" to make them their own.

    So we get all sorts of display standards. To Wit: MDA, CGA, EGA, VGA (in various forms), Display Port, HDMI, and DVI, just to name a few. If you wait, more will come.

    Oh, wait USB-C.

    1. AndrueC Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Wonderful thing about standards....

      At least with USB the connectors are standardised so there's little risk of incompatibility.

      But I've been around long enough to remember IRQ and Port jumpering. And the irritations of RS232 (crossed or uncrossed always the question). So I love USB really :)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Wonderful thing about standards....

        regarding RS-232... I would love to find a USB-RS232 adapter that includes the ability to easily flip pins 2/3. Even better would be a driver smart enough to figure it out on its own. I never have a null modem cable handy when I need one.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Wonderful thing about standards....

          Ok, product development question - you'd love to find one, but would you pay more for it than a "normal" one, and would enough people buy it do you think?

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Wonderful thing about standards....

        "But I've been around long enough to remember IRQ and Port jumpering. And the irritations of RS232 (crossed or uncrossed always the question)."

        I'm beginning to think things were so much simpler then.

  6. Oengus

    When?

    gazillions of devices will use it any month decade now FTFY

    USB-C is like USB-3 It took ages for it to start rolling out and even today devices come with more USB-2 ports than USB-3

    1. AMBxx Silver badge

      Re: When?

      Yep, my PC has both USB2 and USB3 ports. They're not labelled any differently, so no way to tell them apart.

      At least with USB-C, there a big label saying 'plug in here to fry device'

      1. drdnght

        Re: When?

        All USB 3 ports and plugs are blue

        1. James O'Shea Silver badge

          Re: When?

          "All USB 3 ports and plugs are blue"

          err... no. Dell, for example, does not use the little blue tab. It uses a black tab, just like for USB2, except that 'SS' and a little USB3 logo are silk-screened next to the port, using the smallest possible font and in a colour as similar to that of the computer's case as possible, to maximise the odds of people not having clue one about what kind of port this is. Apple doesn't even do that; they ship devices which are either all USB2 or USB3. If one USB port is USB3, all are, and Apple sees no point in labeling them. I have seen several 'secure' USB thumb drive sticks which have red tabs... and can be bought in USB2 or USB3, with the same red tabs.

          And all USB C devices are USB3. I have yet to see a blue USB C tab.

          1. AMBxx Silver badge
            FAIL

            "All USB 3 ports and plugs are blue"

            That's really helpful when they're round the back.

            1. Down not across
              Trollface

              Re: "All USB 3 ports and plugs are blue"

              That's really helpful when they're round the back.

              Doesn't that apply to your original complaint about them not being labeled as well? The labelling would be likely to be at the back where the ports are.

          2. Fuzz

            Re: When?

            "And all USB C devices are USB3. I have yet to see a blue USB C tab."

            Not all USB-C devices are USB 3, they could be 2.0, 3.0 or 3.1

            I'm with you on the blue USB-A plugs/sockets though. My surface pro 2 has a solitary USB 3 port coloured black. I have a Lenovo with red and yellow USB 3 ports.

            1. Charles 9

              Re: When?

              Red and yellow ports mean Sleep-and-Charge ports. They're powered up even with the laptop off or asleep, meaning they can be used for charging.

              1. toughluck

                @Charles 9, red and yellow ports

                Red and yellow ports mean Sleep-and-Charge ports. They're powered up even with the laptop off or asleep, meaning they can be used for discharging your laptop.

                There, FTFY

          3. Efros

            Re: When?

            HP laptops with USB 3.0 use black sockets too, SS marked next to the socket is the only clue, with an added lightning bolt if it's a charging socket... whose driver/hardware still doesn't work in terms of charging when the lid is closed, windows 7-10 none of them worked for this "feature".

        2. Allan George Dyer
          Paris Hilton

          Re: When?

          "All USB 3 ports and plugs are blue"

          Which is a great help when you're trying to plug the cable in at the back. Remember that it always takes 3 tries to get the plug the right way up, so it's going to take forever to get it right.

      2. Efros

        Re: When?

        The last motherboard I bought had all sorts of bells and whistles, onboard m.2 connector, SATA Xpress, onboard switches to enable overclocking, onboard display to display hex fault codes etc, and tons of USB 2 ports. 8 of them USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.0 with another two on a mobo header. WTF 8 2.0 ports thanks Gigabyte!!!

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So how is a simple user meant to work out what the USBC port is capable of. Obviously this cable when plugged into a port that does not support HDMI will prove useless - will there be a set of symbols introduced to help inform people what they can and can't use a particular USB-C port for?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > will there be a set of symbols introduced to help inform people what they can and can't use a particular USB-C port for?

      Yes, there is already a highly confusing set of symbols, which will now need to be extended.

      http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/usb-31-usb-type-c-refresher,news-51106.html

      I think many punters are going to be very annoyed when they buy a USB-C to Foo cable, but it doesn't work with Foo - and will blame the cable.

      (Similarly, I remember you could buy a TV which was labelled both "Freeview" and "HD Ready", but was not actually able to receive Freeview HD when it came along)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I have one of those TVs. Doesn't bother me though as I do all my viewing via a PVR anyway - the TV doesn't need a digital tuner at all and the analogue tuner is just used as a CCTV monitor.

      2. Steve Foster
        Holmes

        @AC

        Well, of course, everyone (other than marketeers) quickly learnt that "HD Ready" = "not actually capable of HD" (see also "Vista Ready").

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Mushroom

      So how is a simple user meant to work out what the USBC port is capable of.

      Connect or daisy-chain stuff up and look for device the smoke comes out of.

  8. Don Dumb
    Meh

    No need for dongles?

    Is a USBc to HDMI cable that different from a dongle?

    1. Fuzz

      Re: No need for dongles?

      I don't get this either.

      I can already buy a USB-C to HDMI dongle. I didn't realise that I couldn't buy an HDMI to USB-C cable I hadn't considered that it would be a different thing.

      1. Martin an gof Silver badge

        Re: No need for dongles?

        If I understand correctly, the dongles you can currently buy for USB (various flavours) to HDMI are effectively graphics cards in a cable and need a driver. The idea of this new specification is that the graphics card stays in the originating device so any required drivers are already loaded.

        The first type of device is good for adding a second (third, fourth) display to your computer if your computer doesn't already have that number of outputs. The new type of device is best for a: portable devices such as phones and tablets, where loading a driver (or even finding one) is impossible and b: "air" type laptops where the comparatively bulky HDMI port can be removed.

        Presumably though, if past performance is anything to go by, this will lead to laptops with very few physical ports, which means that if you want to connect more than one device (what, you want to connect a memory stick and a display, and a receiver for the clicky presenter device?) you'll end up with hubs or port splitters or something which is hardly ideal.

        M.

        1. Fuzz

          Re: No need for dongles?

          "If I understand correctly, the dongles you can currently buy for USB (various flavours) to HDMI are effectively graphics cards in a cable and need a driver."

          Not for USB-C they're not. I think they're using the display port over USB-C with a DP to HDMI adapter.

          1. Martin an gof Silver badge

            Re: No need for dongles?

            I think they're using the display port over USB-C

            Until now a "USB to display" adapter was effectively a graphics card in a cable.

            With this new standard, the graphics hardware stays in the originating device.

            Didn't I already say that? Sorry. I'll shut up now.

            M.

  9. Richard 12 Silver badge

    Will they cut their licence fees?

    It costs a bleedin' fortune to put an HDMI connector on anything, whether device or cable.

    That's one of the main reasons DisplayPort is doing well.

    The other being that DisplayPort is objectively better, though that's never really mattered too much in this industry.

  10. L05ER
    Coat

    meh.

    i'll keep pfaffing about with my Display Port to VGA "dongle", TYVM.

  11. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Flame

    Can we just use an Ethernet cable already ?

    There is a high-speed standard that works wonderfully well and has done so for years. It can handle up to Gbps speeds, which should be largely enough for TV resolutions for quite a while longer. It is already ubiquitous and cheap.

    So can we do away with all this stupid connector issues and just plonk in Ethernet already ?

    Oh, right, it doesn't do DRM. Damn.

    1. P. Lee
      Coat

      Re: Can we just use an Ethernet cable already ?

      +1

      But I think we need a new "thin-plug" ethernet standard for small devices. RJ45 is fine for the DC but always breaks.

      I wonder if there is a USB-type plug which would suffice?

      I know - one plug format which does multiple standards, so you never know if the devices you are linking can actually talk to each other!

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Can we just use an Ethernet cable already ?

      "Oh, right, it doesn't do DRM. Damn."

      No but it does do reporting back to the mother-ship.

      I must admit that my reaction to the article was to wonder whether this was a ploy to sneak DRM into USB by the back door.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Can we just use an Ethernet cable already ?

      There is a standard for HD video over ethernet - HDbaseT. Managed to fry my network cable tester by plugging it into one of the ports, so not sure that's the perfect solution either...

  12. Mage Silver badge
    Devil

    Problem.

    The phone will have a SINGLE USB C connector and nothing else. Saves money.

    You'll need a break out box to add power, audio to analogue amp, USB HDD etc.

    Really the 2.5mm or 3.5mm power jack (properly made) makes more sense than USB, because USB can be exploited by Evil on a PSU and then you need a hub to connect anything else.

    Ditching 3.5mm audio jack is so stupid. I'm not going to even list the multiple reasons.

    A separate HDMI connector is no more a need for a "dongle" than USB C to HDMI!

    My Sony Xperia lacks the coax power plug, but at least a €2 USB hub allows power + perpherials.

    The separate HDMI and Audio jacks are good too.

    It seems phones are being increasingly designed to suit Manufacturers and not users.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Problem.

      "properly made"

      There's your problem. Well, that and no one could agree on the right size. I remember about ten years ago (before the rise of iPhones and Android) when there was a cheapo store that had an entire wall full of cell phone adapters. And no two pegs were alike. AND they were pretty cheaply made. Do you REALLY wanna to go back to THAT jungle?

      PS. As for USB, that's a requirement anyway for device<-->PC communications, and it can still provide power WHILE communicating so why not put them together? If you're worried about an evil device disguised as a charger, you probably have other issues (such as an Insidious Insider).

      1. Mage Silver badge

        Re: If you're worried about an evil device disguised as a charger,

        "Public" charging points

        After market USB chargers of no-name in high street supermarkets etc.

        The problem is USB HID and gadgets where you can't turn USB off on a port, or even worse, gadgets with "debug mode" enabled and then it's trivial to remotely root the gadget.

        Micro USB was a wasted opportunity compared to mini-USB. So is USB C.

        Actually the only thing worse than USB as a concept is Bluetooth.

        I can think of many things that could have been done better at USB 1.0 time. However they were only thinking of joysticks, mice and keyboards, replacing 5 pin port and analogue joystick. No peer to peer communication, no User control of HID, not reversible and stupid limits even then for speed and power, should have had more options from day one, been reverse-able connector (easy) and switchable full / half duplex (four wires for data, double speed in half duplex mode for block read or block write)

        1. PushF12
          Gimp

          Re: If you're worried about an evil device disguised as a charger,

          Remember these commercials? https://youtu.be/v3AucZOsjZ4

          After the frustrating mess of early USB, this Intel advertising campaign seemed tone deaf.

          At a minimum, USB 1.0 needed standard mandatory device profiles for the things that regular users connected to a COM or LPT port in the early 1990s. Modem, printer, and disk were all notably lacking.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    HDMI + USB-C...

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Murphy always wins!

  14. MotionCompensation

    More frying in the future

    Some day, projectors will start coming with USB-C connectors alongside HDMI. Some day, someone will use one of these USB-C to HDMI cables to connect an older laptop to a newer projector. Now, the entire cable has become reversible. Time for a successor to 'will it blend': will it fry?

  15. Lunatik
    Mushroom

    Only vaguely USB-C related rant incoming...

    Ahh, *another* interconnection standard. Great, just what we need.

    Here's how my Saturday afternoon went. On Friday I got given a new docking station and laptop for WFH larks.

    Existing PC has VGA and DP

    Existing monitor has VGA & DVI, connected by VGA.

    New docking station has DP

    New monitor has DP(2), miniDP(1) and HDMI(2), came with DP-miniDP cable, so good for one device.

    Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to get both PC and docking station hooked up to the new monitor by procuring a suitable cable on Saturday afternoon in the affluent home counties.

    "OK, let's do this" I thought.

    First port of call; Tesco. Nope. (long shot I know)

    Argos? Nope. (again, long shot)

    Screwfix? Nope. (don't laugh, they do HDMI stuff nowadays and are handy)

    Maplin? Hmmm, none within easy reach any more, but as it turns out their website says they only have miniDP-HDMI which wouldn't get me going without a less-than-ideal adaptor.

    OK then, CurrysPCWorld (as we must now call it) will surely have one. Cue 10 minute drive.

    Quick scan showed they didn't seem to have one hanging up so I asked a CPCW bod.

    Me: "Hi, do you have any sort of DisplayPort cables? Not really bothered which flavour, just about any kind should do."

    CPCW bod: "Is it VGA or HDMI?"

    Me: "No, DisplayPort. It's a different connector."

    CPCW bod: "Oh. I don't know much about these things. I'll go and get someone who does."

    3 minutes later...

    CPCW bod 2: "Hi, how can I help?"

    Me: "Do you have any sort of DisplayPort cables? Not really bothered which flavour, just about any kind should do."

    CPCW bod 2: "Is it for a Mac?"

    Me: "No, PC"

    CPCW bod 2: "DisplayPort is Mac only"

    Me: "No, it's not. I definitely have a need to join a Lenovo docking station to a Dell monitor and neither are Macs yet both have DisplayPort"

    CPCW bod 2: "Is it like this?" *points to HDMI cable*

    Me, sighing: "No, it's DisplayPort"

    CPCW bod 2: "They're Mac only though"

    Me: "Err no, they're not" *scanning nearby PCs* "Look, here's a PC on your shelf with DisplayPort"

    *CPCW bod2 whips out iPhone to use as torch to inspect the port*

    CPCW bod 2: "Oh yeah. We only have cables for Macs though"

    Me: "OK, can you show me those then?"

    CPCW bod 2 *shows me various dongles and adaptors "for Mac" (i.e. white), but no cables*

    Me: "So, no cables then. Thanks for your time"

    I can only imagine how introducing yet another connection type into this unholy mess will "improve" matters, stores are already struggling to support the numerous combinations of source and sink ports.

    VGA was ubiquitous to the point that I could realistically expect Tesco to have a cable in emergencies. The industry, through lack of planning, greed and hubris, has managed to screw this state of affairs up royally.

    And the cable? I eventually got one delivered on Sunday from Amazon for a few quid. Take that, high street. If I'd done that straight away instead of pissing about I could have gotten it same day. *sigh*

    1. MotionCompensation

      Re: Only vaguely USB-C related rant incoming...

      USB-C will solve this problem for you in the future. Sort of. Both ends of the cables will fit in any device. Even Tesco will sell cables that fit. The only question remaining will be: will it fry? Don't believe the CPCW-guy when he says it won't.

      1. Lunatik

        Re: Only vaguely USB-C related rant incoming...

        That's what they said about DisplayPort. And HDMI. etc.

        I agree that it's probably a step in the right direction, but considering we're only just now getting rid of VGA after nearly 30 years, how long until the current mish-mash is churned out of existence and how many other 'better' standards will come along in the meantime?

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: Only vaguely USB-C related rant incoming...

          It's annoying that few TVs have a DP input, whilst few PCs - or modest graphics cards - have HDMI 2.0 outputs. Hopefully a Home Theatre PC graphics card (i.e small and silent for video and 4K desktop duties, but not gaming) will arrive in time.

          Or maybe this will be the better solution:

          http://www.anandtech.com/show/9867/club3d-releases-dp12-to-hdmi-20-adapter

          I don't know, I haven't tested it. (The three buyers who left reviews on Scan.co.uk suggest it does what it says on the tin)

      2. AMBxx Silver badge
        Paris Hilton

        USB-C will solve this problem for you in the future.

        @MotionCompensation

        You forgot the joke icon.

        Paris 'cos even she doesn't believe what she hears about USB-C

    2. Boothy

      Re: Only vaguely USB-C related rant incoming...

      I went through a very similar trek a few weeks back.

      Had a bit of a move around at home, which meant having a larger desk space. I realised I could fit three monitors on the desk now (from two previously), and I had an old spare 1920x1200 one sat on a shelf doing nothing, so I figured why not!

      I too ended up buying new cables on line, as no local shops (Maplins, .*PCWorld, large Tescos, Asda living etc) had anything of any use to me.

      In fact I'd go so far as to state that most of these shops, were essentially only stocking what I'd class as 'legacy' cables, and not one of them was stocking anything that could be used to connect 'modern' devices to another 'modern' device.

      Same was true for USB-C.

      I get the feeling that whoever is in change of stocking things like cables in these shops, is working of a list that's about 5+ years out of date, and so they simply don't cover current 'standard' connectors, like DisplayPort etc.

      1. MattPi

        Re: Only vaguely USB-C related rant incoming...

        "In fact I'd go so far as to state that most of these shops, were essentially only stocking what I'd class as 'legacy' cables, and not one of them was stocking anything that could be used to connect 'modern' devices to another 'modern' device."

        Monitors essentially are legacy for the majority of the population. Think about it: how many people (other than the serious desktop user sort) have a desktop in their house? How many of the rest have a monitor that they plug into a laptop? I don't have many friends, but of those very few have a monitor in active service in their house unless they have a 3-5+ year old desktop around. The only monitor I have left in my house is on a shelf, and it's a SGI 1600SW.

  16. Herby

    Why not...

    Just go back to a simple BNC connector like before PC's. I can even make up the cable for them. Nice 75 ohm coax!! (or 50 ohm if you want to get picky!)

    1. Charles 9

      Re: Why not...

      Because juggling power and data on the same wire is a tricky thing, which is why USB separates power leads from data leads (it's just better all around; ask anyone who's had to juggle with Power-over-Ethernet). Plus you have to consider the size of the target device. Slim is in, so expecting phones to get fat to accommodate a BNC receptable is a nonstarter. Furthermore, there's only so much you can shove through a thin copper wire.

      BTW, there was a time I handled BNC cables in an ad-hoc 10Base-2 network. Ditched it the moment I could switch it out for 100Base-T. It was just a whole lot easier all around.

  17. jzl

    Laptop lottery

    OK, so that's another standard that any given USB C port may, or may not, support.

    Good luck with buying a laptop and having any idea at all whether it will work with your particular piece of kit. It's already hard enough finding out which version of USB, DisplayPort, charging and (sometimes) Thunderbolt a given laptop's USB C socket supports. And sometimes different sockets on the same machine have different capabilities. None of the manufacturers marketing departments go into enough technical detail on their websites and the vendors are even worse.

    USB C is rapidly turning into total chaos.

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