back to article What's Brexit? How Tech UK tore up its plans after June 23

Leaders of many British tech firms were less than thrilled to hear that the UK had voted to leave the European Union. “I was shocked and horrified,” says Kate Craig-Wood, managing director of hosting firm Memset, who we spoke before the June 23 vote. Her comments were echoed by others. Mike Laven, chief executive of fintech …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In the longer term this might turn out to be a good deal for the UK. At worst WTO terms with the EU, but a whole host of free trade deals with very large growing economies, including China, South Korea and the common wealth nations. The US has also hinted at a deal. We will also control immigration - so the Government can find ways of speeding up entry for IT trained workers who are in demand. I suspect that WTO tariffs are going to be a big problem for the German car industry who sell 20% of all their cars here. Cars are at 10% unlike most goods that are at 3%. That puts a lot of pressure on the Germans to offer us some sort of deal without us having to sign up to anything we don't want. Alternatively they can refuse a deal and watch their car industry go bust....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "In the longer term this might turn out to be a good deal for the UK."

      or

      In the longer term this might NOT turn out to be a good deal for the UK.

      No one knows

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Already paying 10%

      On my holidays thanks to the pounds wonderful performance, since we got control (apparently).

      Also selling ARM means all the profits now go to Japan not the UK, how is the promise of 3000 new jobs (which they don't have to keep) better than losing a world leading company?

      If this is a sign of our wonderful future going forward, we are up shit creek without a paddle

      1. R3sistance

        Re: Already paying 10%

        The sale of ARM was not related to brexit, that sale would have happened either way but now we have a pledge of increased jobs in the UK for ARM. In terms of economy, having more people employed tends to be more important than having fat cats shove more money into over-inflated bank accounts.

        The weakened Pound is due to market speculation that UK might leave the single market, speculation proves to be wrong 99% and I doubt this will be the 1%. As such, the Pound will likely recover once brexit negotiations are done which in turn would result in a boom as the Pound will then try to return back to it's roughly normal levels. It's also worth mentioning that while the weakened pound maybe bad for some businesses, for others it's actually a boon as it makes the UK more competitive on prices Internationally too.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Already paying 10%

          "The weakened Pound is due to market speculation that UK might leave the single market, speculation proves to be wrong 99% and I doubt this will be the 1%."

          Haven't you noticed, we've already voted to leave the single market?

          1. Vic

            Re: Already paying 10%

            Haven't you noticed, we've already voted to leave the single market?

            *Strictly speaking*, no we haven't; we voted to leave the EU.

            We could theoretically stay within the single market whilst being outside the EU - but that would involve us signing up to basically everything people said they wanted to get away from, whilst simultaneously giving up our rebate and our rights to vote on EU legislation - the worst of all worlds.

            Vic.

        2. WageSlave

          Re: Already paying 10%

          That's optimistic ball-gazing - the pound is unlikely to recover to "normal", i.e. pre-Brexit, levels.

          You only have to look at the long-term currency Hedge rates to get a feel for what the money markets think will happen. It's clear the GBP will be worth c. 7%-10% less than pre-Brexit (& yes, I'm already aware that speculation had already begun before the announcement in Feb. USD rate was 1.6-1.5 in late 2015, dropped & hovered to 1.4 around the announcement, and is now more steady at around 1.3.

          So the net is GBP will be worth, say, 8% less. And whilst that will help our exporters a bit, don't forget their raw materials & goods will cost more unless 100% produced in the UK, AND the commensurate uncertainty that we've introduced into Europe will lower the Euro, too, so would effectively cancel most of our export benefits, certainly into Europe.

          Long-term, it means a large part of our raw materials, and anything supplied by Global companies, who price their costs in USD, will cost 8% more, which will have to be passed on to us, the consumers.

          Let's be generous and say the it's only a 5% hit, to account for purely domestic sourcing and EU imports / Euro weakness. Our wages won't rise due to the prolonged employment uncertainty, and so the overall effect is we will ALL be 5% poorer.

          Personally, many of my customers have delayed IT projects, and focused their time on doing some housekeeping, which means my business loses a massive chunk of revenue, most of which won't recover, it just shifts everything else out, and so hits my pay packet directly, and hard, dammit.

          So of course I'm mightily pissed off because that hurts me directly with a double-whammy of short-term penury and higher cost of living long-term.

          My household will be OK, though, the IT industry isn't too badly paid, so we'll just have to tighten a little. But it'll be the worst-off who will suffer most from that kind of squeeze, and that hurts my social conscience.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Already paying 10%

        "Also selling ARM means ...." Does anyone else here seriously believe that the ARM deal was conceived, negotiated, done and dusted between the Referendum result and the announcement last week? Anyone? ... No. i didn't think so.

        Far too many commentators seem to be very eager for the UK to fail just so they can say "I told you so".

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "The US has also hinted at a deal."

      Given that there existing trade negotiations look a lot like colonisation that might be one to avoid.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        And think what will happen if Trump wins.... given his idea of international exchanges....

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        s/there/their/

        Dammit.

    4. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: The US has also hinted at a deal

      Poppycock. The US no longer offers deals, it offers economic and political subservience.

      1. JennyZ

        Re: The US has also hinted at a deal

        Ah, much like the British Empire...

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Where are all those high-paid financial sector workers going to buy their status-symbol luxury cars from? Japan? US? Korea? India? Meanwhile even Germany can set up deals to sell more cars in China or other countries... if "menaced", it could also move some production sites away from Britain. German does protect its workers, when needed.

      Britain can still favour some immigrants with specific skills if it likes so - the problem may be its companies access to the EU market, if deals are not reciprocal.

      EU is not going to let GB have all the advantage of EU free market and free circulation without any of the disadvantages - because it will mean the collapse of the whole EU (because others will follow quickly), and Germany can't afford it.

      May wishes about it are just "wishful thinking".

      1. hewbass

        Also the EU labour market is a key economic driver for us. Everyone looking for some kind of immigration reform is missing the point that we are incredibly short if junior/mid level engineers - just getting these to apply through a points based immigration system is going to be a nightmare. They are going to go to places that are attractive and easy to get into, like the uk was until 23rd June.

        1. Alic

          Also short of Doctors and Nurses.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Let's see buy Jaguar/Land Rover. Jag just made a deal on it's next gen motors with BMW. Rolls oh thats BMW, Bentley that's volkswagen. Mini - BMW etc. If you want to by UK then it's Morgan, McLaren or 20% of an Aston Martin.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Not Aston Martin. It used to be owned by Ford, but my understanding is that it is now owned by a consortium of an American investment bank and two Quaiti investors.

    6. HAL-9000
      Flame

      I hear you

      Perhaps you may have a point. I just fail to see how the UK continuing to pay for access to the EU, even more bureaucracy for our business people (think import/export paperwork), potentially the same deal vis-a-vis immigration, and absolutely no say in euro rules; could be seen as an improvement to matters.

      Perhaps if people were less blinded by xenophobic, anti EU propaganda spouted by our 'independent press', and actually took part in european democracy, sending candidates to the EU parliament with an agender other than causing problems (see the UKIP euro voting records!!), instead of the red nosed size 26 footed clowns, that we duely elected.

      Then perhaps all this uncertainty might have been avoided.

      Interestingly where were all these Bremain business leaders when Boris was recruiting the usual suspects (Mike Ashley etal) to back his case for Brexit?

      Goes to show turkeys do indeed vote for Christmas

      Rant Over...

      PS Any idea where Nige has gone these days? Answer: he's still creaming it in, on the brussels gravy train ;) Anyone else smiling wryly?

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: I hear you

        @ HAL-9000

        "Perhaps if people were less blinded by xenophobic, anti EU propaganda spouted by our 'independent press',"..."Then perhaps all this uncertainty might have been avoided."

        Perhaps a rigged vote by bullies was a bad idea. Claiming the country to be doomed (and Osborne stating he will damage the country if we give the wrong answer) is not going to inspire confidence. The PM claiming to stick around whatever the result but only willing to negotiate remain but not leave so as to cause uncertainty may also have been a bad move. The remain propaganda against a little England (by the little England remain camp afraid of the world) about gov and civil service incompetence at negotiation or running our own country may give people jitters too.

        Oddly the remain camp inflicting self harm and then pointing to the wounds while shouting 'see see' is not impressive. Nor should we be proud of them.

        "PS Any idea where Nige has gone these days? Answer: he's still creaming it in, on the brussels gravy train ;) Anyone else smiling wryly?"

        He is where he needs to be. He was frozen out of the brexit negotiations even after being the reason for a referendum and one of the few sources on the EU with a clue, so he is still the MEP, and will be until the democratic vote is honoured. No matter how much Junker may hate it.

        1. HAL-9000

          Re: I hear you

          I too face palmed every time a Bremain person spoke, you are correct their campaign should have focused on the positives, been more honest etc. That is indeed quite possibly why so many voted the way they did (anti-establishment protest, fear of foreigners, bunting fetishists or some such). As for rigged, you'll need to explain that one, does it lurk in the conspiracy web alongside other choice bits of Ickeism.

          I was merely retorting to another smug git who was trying to tell me 'there there, stiff upper lip, and everything will be alright in the end' nonsense; When it quite patently won't be. The shit will land once we start article 50 in motion; then we'll see how promising the future looks. Try to remeber it was Camoron's idea to call the referendum, he could have left it as a policy promise for the next general election. No need to rush in where angles fear. Unfortunately Dave's luck finally ran out, and now he sits on the back benches where the feckless tosser always wanted to be.

          As for Farage (add Bojo, DDavis, etc), (they are) he is a lying, opportunistic, greedy, manipilative, xenophobic, windbag; So full of excrement I wonder why his tears donot stink. Unfortunately he is still in Brussels with his begging bowl, when someone with purpose could have been there instead. That man of the people schtick, fuck off, I've met him; if your idea of the people is a bunch of toffee nosed, public school old boys with cotton socks, and silver spoons in their mouths, then yes he is a man of the 'people'.

          The best bit of course, soon we will be USA's bitch number one, and we'd better like it, cause we're gonna have TTIP super max, with all the bits our european neighbours wouldn't even consider. I wonder how trade negociations with America are going for Anthony (Boris) Johnson these days, shouldn't take long. It's not like he upset anyone there is it (fortunately he'll be a token figurehead, and technocrats from whitehall will do the real deals)

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: I hear you

            @ HAL-9000

            "I too face palmed every time a Bremain person spoke"

            I dont think either of the official campaigns did us proud. Both were rubbish. However the nearest to an honest campaign was UKIP. Nigel has done a lot for the country like him or not. We finally got the promised referendum of over a decade.

            "As for rigged, you'll need to explain that one, does it lurk in the conspiracy web alongside other choice bits of Ickeism."

            It was pretty blatant. The very people who want a specific result (remain) and knowing how many people can sign up to register miraculously lose the server 1 hr before deadline and the response is to extend by 2 days and up the campaigning. The PM refusing to discuss any idea of leaving but will discuss remaining with the EU (he is the only one with any power). Add to that insisting he will stay to negotiate thereby stopping anyone from having a plan (nobody has the authority). The BoE offering only one sided opinions of heavy bias which were called out publicly. Using tax payer money to campaign for the 'right' answer. And of course the punishment budget which had no factual reason beyond threat. I use the term rigging but various other words can be used for such abuse of the electorate.

            "I was merely retorting to another smug git who was trying to tell me 'there there, stiff upper lip, and everything will be alright in the end' nonsense"

            Must admit that irritates me as much as the 'we are all doomed' claims. What we do now is up to us, yet people are still hung up on the EU or avoiding the result of the referendum.

            "Unfortunately he is still in Brussels with his begging bowl, when someone with purpose could have been there instead."

            He is there with purpose. No other MP represents me there. And that isnt his begging bowl, if they dont want him paid by the EU then we just need to leave. Its simple. He is doing the only thing left to him to hold them all to account. If he had the power to call article 50 he wouldnt need to be there. He cant do that and has been refused for the negotiations.

            "The best bit of course, soon we will be USA's bitch number one, and we'd better like it, cause we're gonna have TTIP super max"

            We would be the US's bitch by staying. Obama did come to tell us how to vote remember, and it wasnt to leave the EU into the welcoming arms of Obama. The good news is he is on his way out and so doesnt matter. He isnt even able to push the deal with the EU. Yet on the vote we suddenly got interest from the US, not bad when the EU moves at a snail pace (we might even get a china deal before the EU does).

            As for TTIP it is an interesting problem for remain. If we leave we get to choose. If we remain we do whatever the EU says-

            The EU is a dead duck and needs money. They decide to go with it and we are stuck with it enforced upon us.

            or-

            The French wont stand for it and will veto any deal. As such we cant get our trade deal because an EU member will block it.

            Of course it is Schroedinger's trade agreement at the moment because nobody knows if it is dead or alive. I thought the EU was ment to be good at this bit?

            1. HAL-9000

              Re: I hear you

              @ codejunky

              Bollox, I thought you or someone might have been doing a David Icke. Get real! Do you honestly expect me not to laugh while you rattle on about how milliions of law abiding Brexit voters were denied their right to vote by engineered travel delays, freak weather events, drought, road blocks or whatever.

              When do you fucking morons understand that little Brittain was only big Britain because she was a low tax/regulation gateway to the eurozone. Outside the eurozone we will soon find out who our 'friends' are, who calls the shots, and how high we jump. It simply hasn't happened yet.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: I hear you

                @ HAL-9000

                "Do you honestly expect me not to laugh while you rattle on about how milliions of law abiding Brexit voters were denied their right to vote by engineered travel delays, freak weather events, drought, road blocks or whatever."

                I dont think the server controlled those but if you want to believe that its up to you.

                "When do you fucking morons understand that little Brittain was only big Britain because she was a low tax/regulation gateway to the eurozone"

                Actually we quickly became Great Britain not Little England as George Osborne changed his tune when he went to wall st. It amused us voting leave as we have been saying that for some time now.

                "Outside the eurozone we will soon find out who our 'friends' are, who calls the shots, and how high we jump. It simply hasn't happened yet."

                We didnt know before? We were too shielded from the real world? That big scary one we should run and hide from? No thanks.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Nige

          "He was frozen out of the brexit negotiations even after being the reason for a referendum"

          On what basis could he be included? Not only is he in the gov't party, he failed to even get into the HoC.

        3. ATG

          Re: I hear you

          "He is where he needs to be. He was frozen out of the brexit negotiations even after being the reason for a referendum and one of the few sources on the EU with a clue, so he is still the MEP, and will be until the democratic vote is honoured. No matter how much Junker may hate it."

          He's still an MEP. And the democratically elected government is dealing with the exit - I'm not sure how you can say someone who isn't an elected member of the House of Commons (part of the democracy deficit argument) could possibly contribute? He isn't a member of the government, he's not a member of the House of Commons, he isn't qualified as an expert in economics or anything else - on what basis is that being frozen out?

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: I hear you

            @ ATG

            "he's not a member of the House of Commons, he isn't qualified as an expert in economics or anything else - on what basis is that being frozen out?"

            I have nothing against that view. I do think he is one of the better knowledgeable people on the EU and could contribute but as you say he is not elected here. He is the one who made the referendum happen and ran an actual leave campaign while the official one shamed us. But I feel the point must be made due to the popular claim he ran away, which is a popular bit of bull, and of course he can only contribute by being an MEP until we leave.

      2. Dr_N Silver badge

        Re: I hear you

        "PS Any idea where Nige has gone these days?"

        Although still troughing a large sum out of EU coffers for not being there,

        he was over in the US at the Republican National Convention.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I hear you

        oh dear where are all the workers going to come from to do all the sh1t jobs! All the UK workers who couldn't be bothered to do said sh1t jobs are going to have a bit of a rude awakening as they'll have to do them as there won't be anyone else! I look forward to seeing bus loads of the great unwashed out picking veg and flowers early in the mornings rather than the eastern Europeans that have been doing it.

        Careful what you wish for

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

          1. Paul Shirley

            Re: magical thinking

            still get their cheap foreign workers

            Inciting the mob of xenophobe little englanders with immigration control BS was easy. Putting them back in their closets when reality smacks hard against delivery, good luck with that. It's been a while since we last had serious sustained rioting here but I think they remember how to do it.

            Putting them on workfare could solve both problems, knackered slave labour and no need for immigrants to take away their excuse. Which will be doubly useful with an unstaffed NHS to patch them up.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: magical thinking

              yep its going to be quite interesting to watch if it was't so sad. A large number of the brexit supporters fell in to this "coming over here taking our jobs" camp. Quick translation "coming over here taking the jobs we don't want to do" camp to be more accurate. As said these jobs will still need to be done. So Jonny Thicko who fecked around at school (if he ever went to school) and left with sod all qualifications, who has been sitting on JSA watching, Jez Kyle, smoking pot, drinking, scamming cash and generally bumming around, whilst blaming immigrants for the lack of jobs, is now going to have to go and do a shit job.

              Still Every cloud.

              1. JennyZ

                Re: magical thinking

                And why is that a problem?

              2. hewbass

                Re: magical thinking

                As I mentioned elsewhere, they are also coming to do jobs where we have run out of qualified people from the uk to do them. These companies will have to move elsewhere if they need to recruit, and this has the potential counterintuitive effect of increasing unemployment in the uk because of fewer migrants.

            2. YARR
              Flame

              "Where are all those high-paid financial sector workers going to buy their status-symbol luxury cars from?"

              Why not make them here since the market is here?

              "Perhaps if people were less blinded by xenophobic, anti EU propaganda spouted by our 'independent press', and actually took part in european democracy"

              If our politicians were less blinded by pro-globalist anti-British propaganda spouted by our controlled media and education system we would have avoided all these problems by NOT JOINING A POLITICAL UNION AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE MAJORITY OF THE ELECTORATE.

              Why should we partake in a European democracy that we never wanted to be part of, and that is inferior to our own democracy? Why do you expect people who never asked to join to support remaining?

              "where are all the workers going to come from to do all the sh1t jobs"

              Who do you think did the work before we joined the EU? Oh look, the jobs were better paid (relatively) in those days too so people were more willing to do them, but no you have to racially slander British workers for not accepting a lower standard of living. Less immigration = less inequality.

              Higher wages for low skilled jobs also encourages innovation to improve worker efficiency. With a ready supply of cheap workers we innovate less.

              "German car manufacturer sell more cars in a day to India/China than they do in a year in the UK. "

              From what nether-region did you pull this ridiculous claim? It should be self-evident that you are wrong by at least 1-2 orders of magnitude.

              If you base your opinion on false information like this, it's time to re-evaluate your opinion.

              "I'm guessing that then *all* cars will be 20% more expensive, not just the German ones..."

              EU made cars will be dearer when Britain exists the EU. Cars made elsewhere could be more affordable depending on what trade agreements the UK makes.

              This will incentivise manufacturers to make cars for the UK market in the UK, and help balance our trade deficit.

              "As for Farage (add Bojo, DDavis, etc), (they are) he is a lying ... windbag"

              The so-called lies of the Brexit camp are small overestimates versus the remain camp which were outright lies = an inversion of the truth.

              e.g. Blair claiming that the EU does not take away British sovereignty, or Cameron claiming that Turkey would never join the EU then claiming the opposite to a different audience.

              "<some racist Anti-British lies> ... an unstaffed NHS to patch them up"

              How do you think the NHS was staffed before we joined the EU? Oh look it worked fine and it's staffing model was sustainable. Now, thanks to globalisation, we have an unsustainable staffing model which is dependent on immigrants. What's the solution according to the globalists? Yes - more globalisation and more immigration.

              Do you think the rest of the world should adopt an economic system which is dependent on immigration? Would that model work better overall than each country aiming to become independent and self-sufficient?

      4. Jess

        Re: EEA membership

        "Perhaps you may have a point. I just fail to see how the UK continuing to pay for access to the EU, even more bureaucracy for our business people (think import/export paperwork), potentially the same deal vis-a-vis immigration, and absolutely no say in euro rules; could be seen as an improvement to matters"

        Are you sure being in the EEA would mean more paperwork? That would defeat the point of a free market.

        The gross amount would be lower, (hopefully) the net amount would be similar to the present situation. The difference is instead of having urban regeneration schemes and scientists funded by the tyrants at the EU, we would be able choose to spend that money on the NHS or tax cuts for the rich.

        We wouldn't be bound by as many laws as present. And the English and Welsh people obviously believe that we can trust our own government with those needing replacing. Contrary to popular belief EEA members do get consulted on those EU laws that they will need to abide by, however they do not get the final decision. However, since we are mostly represented by UKIP MEPs I don't see this as any change.

        Given that our government keeps watering down or vetoing laws on the environment or regulating banks and such, the EU will be far better off without us having the disproportionate influence Thatcher negotiated for us.

        Since the people have decided that the UK government will better represent their interests than the EU government, then my opinion is that England and Wales should return to the EFTA and remain in the EEA. The peoples of Scotland, Gibraltar and NI should be given the choice as to whether they wish to join England and Wales or not. And if their preference is Europe rather than England (which I would think sensible), then England and Wales could quit the UK and no article 50 would be needed. (So you might have Britain = England and Wales, UK = united kingdom of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, which would solve the UK/Britain/GB problem on drop down menus)

      5. SImon Hobson Silver badge

        Re: I hear you

        > and actually took part in european democracy, sending candidates to the EU parliament with an agender other than causing problems

        That would be the EU parliament that actually has naff all powers ? It really really is nothing like the UK parliament where the elected government actually has a say in things. In teh EU, direction is set by the non-elected commissioners (in fact, a required attribute seems to be that your own country rejected you - cf Neil Kinnock). Then the various committees (all staffed by non-elected career committee members) get to work on implementation for the high-level policies - and bear in mind that these are people who's jobs depend on coming to the conclusion that "new regulations are needed". When all this non-elected bureaucracy has finalised things, only then does it go to the EU parliament for rubber stamping.

        And rubber stamping it is. There are only 2 options available - rubber stamp it or reject it in it's entirety. Usually (for various political reasons), outright rejection si not an option - so it gets rubber stamped regardless of how badly it smells.

        About the worst the EU parliament can do is write a "strongly worded letter" which the recipients can ignore - or more likely, wipe their backsides with.

        We have been trying to fix the EU from the inside for several decades. Those in a position to fix things have made it really really really clear that they are not going to fix it - instead they intend taking it further and further down the road to total political and financial integration - ie a "United States of Europe" with one currency, one set of laws, one set of tax rules, ... We've seen with Greece (amongst other things) just how well that's working out when you deliberately ignore the rules on joining the club and then carry on as if nothing was wrong.

        So, you are on a boat, the iceberg is clear to see dead ahead. You've pleaded with the captain to change course, but he is adamant that not only is he not changing course - he is going to increase speed. There comes a point where you realise that he is going to crash as hard as he can into that iceberg - so do you stay on board and keep trying to change his mind, or do you decide that the best place is to be on another boat when the crash happens ?

        I voted for us to be on that other boat. It might not be as big or as well fitted out, but after the crash, it'll sure as hell seem much better than the carnage that'll be left. Perhaps there'll be a mutiny and others will realise the seriousness of the situation - especially when they realise we're not sinking as everyone had said we would. Perhaps when the captain has been kicked off and sane people are in charge, we can talk about working with what the EU should have been (and was when we joined).

        If you look at nothing else, watch this video>.

        And see this for a view on how well the Euro is working for Greece.

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I hear you

          "We have been trying to fix the EU from the inside for several decades."

          No, we have barely been trying.

        3. WageSlave

          Re: I hear you

          I'm not sure what Crash it is you're talking about - what event or circumstances do you see happening that will cause such a thing? The EU has (despite its admittedly many flaws) fudged its way through several decades of peace and prosperity, and most at its centre seem to me to be focused on continuing that strategy.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      German car industry...

      "Germans to offer us some sort of deal without us having to sign up to anything we don't want. Alternatively they can refuse a deal and watch their car industry go bust...."

      Could someone please explain this BREXIT argument to me? German car manufacturer sell more cars in a day to India/China than they do in a year in the UK. Even if the UK get no trade deal with the EU, BMW et all can still sell to the UK according to WTO rules. Sure the cars will all be 20% more expensive but I'm guessing that then *all* cars will be 20% more expensive, not just the German ones...

      It's comical to think that the German car industry is in any way dependent on the UK. Probably only 5% of German GDP is dependent on the UK. 45% of UK GDP is dependent on the EU, of course...

      1. AMBxx Silver badge

        45% of UK GDP

        Not it's not. It's 45% of UK exports (And falling).

        Most UK GDP is internal trade.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. noboard

        Re: German car industry...

        "Could someone please explain this BREXIT argument to me? German car manufacturer sell more cars in a day to India/China than they do in a year in the UK"

        Ok it's not the Brexit argument, just one of the many reason people voted leave.

        The German car industry makes a nice chunk of money from the UK market, it doesn't matter that it makes more elsewhere, the important bit is the UK is a profitable market. If the EU and Britain failed to come to an agreement and imports were introduced on their cars, it would mean they either have to reduce the cost, or add it on to their already premium prices. Adding the cost on would almost definitely lose significant sales, as car prices have risen rapidly due to people switching to PCP deals and not realising how expensive the car is.

        Meanwhile the UK government is free to cut deals with other countries and their car manufacturing business. If we look at Korea and China, they're already in the UK market with cheap but dull cars. While the snobs of the automobile world will likely stay second hand because they love the badge and people that want an enjoyable car experience will ignore them, the rest of the purchasing population will switch their PCP deals to this new market; especially if the UK removes import duty in return for building some cars in the UK.

        Over time the increase in money will allow the Asian competitors to create cheap, reliable and enjoyable cars that the British public are loving. They then move into Europe, India etc and take big holes out of the German car market. VW will not allow this.

        Also, this is an article saying companies that aren't employing British workers are looking to move from the UK so they can continue not hiring British workers. I don't see much reason to be sad here.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: German car industry...

          "...allow the Asian competitors to create cheap, reliable and enjoyable cars that the British public are loving. They then move into Europe..."

          In case it's escaped your notice those Asian competitors are producing cars in Britain now. They're doing so because that gives them an EU manufacturing base.

          You're right in that they'll move into Europe. They'll move into Europe because they'll want to continue having an EU manufacturing base.

          The odd thing is that it seems that the areas where they currently have their factories voted for them to leave. This will be the second UK car industry destroyed by its workers (the native industry was pretty-well banjaxed in the '70s). What makes you think anyone will want to provide us with a third?

          1. Alic

            Re: German car industry...

            Nissan in Sunderland is about 1/3 of the UK car industry. But it's not just Nissan, it's the Renault-Nissan Alliance, which turned down a French Government effort in December of 2015 to have them move their factory to France. Now they may change their mind if TM and co don't have a free trade/common market deal.

          2. spiny norman

            Re: German car industry...

            Did you work in the UK car industry in the 1970s? I did. It wasn't the workers that designed the Austin Maestro. It wasn't the workers who didn't have a clue what to do when the Japanese started shipping cars with factory-fitted radios. It wasn't the workers who saddled Jaguar with Austin-Morris management, who didn't understand the idea of a quality car, let alone luxury. Of course the strikes didn't help, but they were a symptom of under-investment, poor management and political meddling, not the downfall of the industry.

        2. hewbass

          Re: German car industry...

          You've totally missed the point in this article. All the British workers with the right qualifications and skills are already employed.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: German car industry...

          The day Britain will be forced to buy cheap Asian cars will really mark a successful Brexit... LOL!

      3. LDS Silver badge

        Re: German car industry...

        It's no surprise Britain is the main importer of German cars. Britain is the only large European country which no longer have its own car industry (but Tata-owned Land Rover and Jaguar, both niche players). France with PSA and Renault, and Italy with FIAT, still have one, and are strong sellers in their respective markets, offsetting German cars sales locally.

        Moreover the fact that brands like Mini are now in the hands of Germany manufacturer, and Ford UK is a subsidiary of Germany based Ford Europe, if these are counted into "German" cars they will rise the sales numbers a lot.

        I would say that Britons are heavily dependent on the German car industry, and the EU one. Sure, there are Japanese and Korean ones also - just let's see if the British will all buy Hyundai, especially the rich ones <G>.

    8. This post has been deleted by its author

    9. strum

      > a whole host of free trade deals with very large growing economies

      In which the other country will do their damnedest to get the best for their people.

      1. AMBxx Silver badge
        FAIL

        In which the other country will do their damnedest to get the best for their people

        That's how trade works.

      2. Alic

        I can't wait for the one with China, as it stands the UK has a £19 billion trade deficit in goods and services last year.

    10. keithpeter
      Windows

      In the long run...

      "In the longer term this might turn out to be a good deal for the UK."

      @AC: I raise you the following quote from John Maynard Keynes' A Tract on Monetary Reform...

      "But this long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task, if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us, that when the storm is long past, the ocean is flat again."

      I suspect that to fully embrace trade deals with the wider world we may need a nearly complete turn over of currently operating small to medium businesses. Why radically rip out your existing dna and re-engineer your processes completely when you can simply operate in Poland, Spain, Hungary, wherever?

      I hope that I am wrong on this one, seriously.

      The Tramp: I'm suspecting I and all my cohort will be paying for this one.

    11. The bigger, blacker box.

      @AC

      >>Alternatively they can refuse a deal and watch their car industry go bust....

      You say this with a smug air of power, while it's obviously true that people in the UK do buy a lot of cars from Germany, the reverse direction is actually more true, the UK sells more cars to the EU than anywhere else, in fact it's over 10% of our exports, if you think that we can somehow use our purchasing power as some kind of zero tariff lever, then (by your logic) this puts us in a very weak bargaining position as we depend far more on the EU for our car industry than they do on ours.

  2. Paul Hargreaves
    Alert

    Bull!

    > [Fairsail] He wants to hire more EU nationals as developers, partly due to their high quality, all done partly because “there are nowhere near enough British skilled people”.

    https://www.linkedin.com/company/fairsail

    Total number of employees 51-200.

    Lets look to see what type of employees they want: http://www.fairsail.com/working-at-fairsail/

    4 entire roles available... (2 developer, 2 tester)

    Nowhere near enough British skilled people? I suspect there are more developers than the entirety of his company currently looking for work.

    Here's a Senior Developer role: https://fairsailrecruit.secure.force.com/hr/fRecruit__ApplyJob?vacancyNo=VN092

    "You’ll be an integral part of the agile[...] embracing the force.com (SFDC) platform and play a key role in the development of one of the UK’s leading force.com solutions. If you don’t possess force.com experience you’ll need to have an appetite for it. "

    Hmm... so the experts they need don't need experience in the primary product they develop with.

    This has nothing to do with quality or skill levels.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: Bull!

      At Itcher, Daniel Rovira employs two Britons, one New Zealander and four non-UK Europeans including himself... He hopes for a Norwegian-style deal that retains freedom of movement and is waiting to see what happens. But although he has lived in London for 13 years and sees the UK as a good place for entrepreneurs, if immigration was curtailed he would consider Barcelona as an alternative. “Certainly it’s much easier to recruit someone than in London, where there is fierce competition, especially for developers,” he says.

      That's in Barcelona, where there's 50% youth unemployment. Sounds like a similar reason to the one you picked out.

      Difficult to get start-up funding in Spain unless you're a construction company though.

      1. kmac499

        Re: Bull!

        Never understood why Spain, or at least Catalonia, isn't the Silicon Valley of Europe. Great weather, Beaches, Relaxed, not to be confused with idle, lifestyle. A well educated population with not too onerous employment law, so flexibility is possible on both sides.

        What am I missing?

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Bull!

          Bureaucracy, taxes from day one, high labour costs, no investment culture, inflexible job market (perhaps a little less so now but old habits carry on), local market not willing to pay much for software, difficult to get paid on time when you do get a product out the door.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bull!

          For the same reason Silicon Valley is not in Baja California (nor in Florida)... you should ask yourself also why a lot of outstanding IT people from Europe comes instead from the Baltic Sea area (Torvalds and Hejlsberg, just to name two). Weather and beaches don't create and attract talent (but surfers, maybe). Good universities, research centres and money do.

          It's no surprise the other IT centres in the US are (were?) the Boston area, and the state of Washington (plus Oregon, with Intel).

          1. Teiwaz Silver badge

            Re: Bull!

            "Weather and beaches don't create and attract talent"

            - Perhaps people are confused by all the now big name companies that allegedly started in Californian 'garages' in the 1970's. Presumably a lot more unlikely in most of Northern Europe (the rain, the cold, the damp and dark evenings most of the year.).

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bull!

          Spaniards?

  3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    All it will take is one big company

    to upsticks and the rest will follow like sheep.

    What the BREXITeers failed to mention is that London (and mostly the city) pays a very high percentage of all Tax to the Government. This indirectly subsidises the rest of the country.

    1. Warm Braw Silver badge

      Re: All it will take is one big company

      This indirectly subsidises the rest of the country

      And yet, the North East is the only region of the country with a balance of payments surplus - that is to say that exports more than it imports (largely thanks to Nissan). To that extent, they're also subsidising the rest of the UK.

      But London gets something like 25 times the amount of infrastructure investment per head because taking office workers on daily 2-hour commutes is an expensive and incredibly inefficient way of using labour.

      That's really why Brexit happened: the failure to distribute economic activity more evenly across the country so that those in the peripheral regions didn't feel like they were constantly dependent on handouts from Hampstead. It will impoverish the country as a whole, but the hope appears to be it will impoverish London more and thereby teach the elite a lesson. Of course, the elite will just move on somewhere else, but that's the problem with the logic of frustration.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: All it will take is one big company

        "North East is the only region of the country with a balance of payments surplus - that is to say that exports more than it imports (largely thanks to Nissan)"

        Who set up there because it was in the EU and who now have no great incentive to continue investing there.

      2. keithpeter
        Windows

        Re: All it will take is one big company

        "...that is to say that exports more than it imports (largely thanks to Nissan)."

        @Warm Braw: how long for?

        (I am a poet and I don't know it)

    2. Paul Hargreaves

      Re: All it will take is one big company

      > ...to upsticks and the rest will follow like sheep.

      Why bother though? What are the advantages to doing so? The multinationals all have offices in most major countries anyway.

      > London (and mostly the city) pays a very high percentage of all Tax to the Government

      Could that be related to the fact that there is a large amount of employment and wealth is concentrated there?

      Which might explain why the BREXITeers secured the votes they needed outside of London.

      > This indirectly subsidises the rest of the country.

      Citation needed? It might feel anecdotally true, but would love to see evidence, outside of newspapers and blogs.

      1. AMBxx Silver badge
        Megaphone

        Re: All it will take is one big company

        And we're all ever so greatful.... Idiot.

        London has done very well from EU trade, so voted to remain.

        Scotland & N Ireland have done well from EU handouts, so voted to remain.

        Everywhere else voted to leave.

        Now can we move on and start discussing something else.

        1. JoshOvki

          Re: All it will take is one big company

          But Wales also did very well from EU Handouts and voted to leave, which still shocks me!

      2. hewbass

        Re: All it will take is one big company

        "> This indirectly subsidises the rest of the country.

        Citation needed? It might feel anecdotally true, but would love to see evidence, outside of newspapers and blogs."

        The statistics are relatively easy to come by. London pays (IIRC) around 20-25% of the entire tax burden of the country, yet consumes only 11% of total government spend (welfare, etc.)

    3. itzman
      Holmes

      Re: All it will take is one big company

      London (and mostly the city) pays a very high percentage of all Tax to the Government. This indirectly subsidises the rest of the country.

      However all the work is done in the rest of the country. I mean real work, like growing and manufactir8ing food (products), making cars, designing chips, generating electricity, capturing and stiring drinking water, dealing with sewage waste, dealing with imports and exports, .

      The country could well survive without London. The reverse is not true.

      1. Paul Shirley

        Re: All it will take is one big company

        I mean real work, like growing and manufactir8ing food

        The only likely EU concession on the 4 freedoms could be services, not including them (and I believe the brexiteers current favourite Canada agreement excludes them). One way I suppose to finally establish if the finance service industry is propping up the physical manufacturing we don't really do any longer - at least not with UK owned companies.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We'll just take the skilled workers! What of their partners/family? From what I gather bringing a spouse into the UK from outside the EU is a pain in the arse.

    As a Brit in Germany, one of the main attractions of working in the EU was that my un-married partner was able to come with me and continue her freelance work with no hassles whatsoever. Given a lot of the skilled IT EU migrant workers I know are in a similar position, don't think we can just dump free movement of people and still have the same access to international talent as before.

  5. David 138

    At least we will still be able to trade with 3rd world countries and potential enemies :P I dont know about you but i have been trying to get cheap bollywood films for years. Now is our chance!!! Now we can open trade deals with china to get some really cheap steel into the country too.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @ David 138

      "At least we will still be able to trade with 3rd world countries"

      That is a really good reason. Cheaper food prices for us and they have access to trade which the EU cartel refuses. Beats sending them aid money.

      "Now we can open trade deals with china to get some really cheap steel into the country too."

      We vetoed the tariffs on that didnt we in the EU. While the rest wanted to apply tariffs against China. Of course we looked like the bad guy but the US which did impose tariffs lost a lot of jobs because of the protectionism. We saved jobs (unless you mean the headline steel plant that we wanted shut down due to green regs and stuff).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @ David 138

        It looks to me US lost a lot of jobs to China. The whole hardware sector (not alone) migrated from the US to the Far East - with IBM even selling all the brands and IPs.

        While many Far East workers did the reverse - those in the US losing jobs offshored to India and the like (or shifted to cheaper immigrants) should not be very happy about those "trades". And they are voting for Trump, who is promising more protectionism...

        Do you really believe you can save jobs when dealing with countries with such salaries?

  6. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    I wonder if May is playing a strategic game. The Brexiteers have been given jobs of setting up deals. At some point whatever they come up with can be put before the HoC as a basis for invoking Article 50. The govt. doesn't actually have to recommend the proposal and she could even lay down some criteria to be met to gain a recommendation.

    If they can actually put a viable proposition together then all well and good. Personally I'll be surprised but pleased. If not it will be up to them, the Leave campaigners, to accept that they couldn't make their good idea work at which point it can safely be remembered the referendum was only advisory. In the meantime any malcontents on the backbenches can be added to the team so they can accept their share of responsibility.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      @ Doctor Syntax

      "The govt. doesn't actually have to recommend the proposal and she could even lay down some criteria to be met to gain a recommendation."

      Or the vote can be honoured as a remain vote would be demanded to be honoured (and then further surrender to the EU would be imposed as is being attempted). We can watch as the continued killings and attacks go on in the EU and the Euro continues to fail as more countries are sacrificed (high unemployment, high youth unemployment, recessions, deflation, imposed austerity, etc). Maybe we will even look at it and wonder why we think those things are good or even acceptable.

      "If not it will be up to them, the Leave campaigners, to accept that they couldn't make their good idea work at which point it can safely be remembered the referendum was only advisory"

      Nope. Moving goal posts again just because a majority gave the 'wrong' result is not democracy. Saying X,Y,Z must be agreed minimums or we will ignore the people is again another tantrum against democracy.

      Like all the poor excuses against accepting the referendum result, this again just sounds like another poor attempt to rig the result. Again.

      1. smartypants

        Re: @ Doctor Syntax

        Can't say I'm surprised to see a brexiter blaming "the killings" on the EU.

        I have no doubt that such poisonous rhetoric found its home amid the sea of lies in the build up to the referendum, and today I find myself hating my own country for this descent into the gutter, little England spray-canned everywhere, me now tainted by association with this broken world view when I go abroad.

        ...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          "Can't say I'm surprised to see a brexiter blaming "the killings" on the EU."

          You have to remember that the unelected, incompetent EU bureaucrat Nazi dictators used their European Army to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. The successful, forceful imposition of stability and democracy in the region, with the loss of merely 100,000s of civilian lives, has made the populace love and trust the West and their Allies... I hear that Baghdad is now a top tourist destination and one of the best places to live in the world.

          Oh yes, and the mess in Syria isn't just because "Assad was a friend of Russia during the cold war", we just coincidentally happen to care about democratic legitimacy in Syria much more than in countries that happened to be "friends of the West during the cold war"...

          1. keithpeter
            Windows

            Re: @ Doctor Syntax

            "You have to remember that the unelected, incompetent EU bureaucrat Nazi dictators used their European Army to invade Iraq and Afghanistan."

            Er - it was US and UK that invaded Iraq without a UN resolution and with severe questions as to legality. You may have heard of this geezer called Chilcot: he has been in the news recently. Wrote some big book about it all. Took ages.

            1. Baldy50

              Re: @ Doctor Syntax

              And people wonder why they hate us.

              https://unama.unmissions.org/afghanistan-record-level-civilian-casualties-sustained-first-half-2016-un-report

        2. noboard

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          'Can't say I'm surprised to see a brexiter blaming "the killings" on the EU.'

          While I agree the killings in Europe lately are down to nut jobs using IS as a convenient way to remove any guilt about their actions, you can't ignore the fact the EU is a horrendously poisonous institution that has split Europe as a whole.

          People are making jokes about the name United Kingdom at the moment, but the idea Europe is united is a complete joke. Austria may well have it's first right wing president soon because the Austrians want out of the EU, everyone’s petrified that the elections in France and Denmark next year will see the far right gain power; again due to people wanting out of the EU. Greece democratically voted a person in on the sole basis that he'd take them out of the EU. Rather than honour a democratic decision, the EU gave him a sh*t ton of cash, imposed no restrictions on expenses and told him to introduce austerity measures against the people to pay for it. Very democratic.

          The fact is the EU is a failed system and the Euro is a failed currency. It's just a matter of time until it falls and I'd rather be in a country that's ahead of the game when it does crumble, then a Scotland who voted to remain in the UK mainly because lots of people were afraid of the change and now have change forced upon them.

      2. John Mangan

        Re: @ Doctor Syntax

        "Nope. Moving goal posts again just because a majority gave the 'wrong' result is not democracy. Saying X,Y,Z must be agreed minimums or we will ignore the people is again another tantrum against democracy."

        So, if even committed Brexiteers can't get a deal that is not entirely crippling for the country you would rather just plough ahead regardless? Wow!

        1. smartypants

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          The referendum result was an advisory snapshot and should not be acted upon for these reasons:

          a) The core of the campaign of the brexit campaign featured a promise to inject billions into the NHS - a promise which lasted just 2 hours after the result. Many 'leavers' are angry at these bare-faced lies.

          b) Many people who voted leave didn't actually want the outcome. They wanted to scare the politicians with a close result.

          d) The clear difference between Scotland and England now risks the break-up of the UK with an eventual EU border to the north, and the biggest threat to peace in NI for decades. Some leavers would vote differently if the choice was either a "Non EU England+Wales+policed scottish border+NI troubles Mk2" or the continued existence of the UK within the EU.

          e) Already it is clear that the world is shocked at the outcome of this poll, and the economic repercussions are starting to make themselves felt - and it isn't good. Some leavers may now realise the importance of their vote and are unwilling to face the economic risks that they had been told did not exist by the brexit campaign.

          All of this boils down to one thing. Are we **sure** this is what we want?

          The answer to that is quite clear. No we are not sure. We should not do it. It is stupid.

          1. John Mangan

            Re: @ Doctor Syntax

            @SmartyPants - although I am on the same side of the debate as on this and agree with many of your points the recent 'Post-Referendum Brexit Debate' (on ITV?) showed the results of a poll with no significant change of voting intentions from either the 'Leave' or 'Remain' camp so I don't think it is clear that the result would change if the referendum was held again.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: @ Doctor Syntax

            "All of this boils down to one thing. Are we **sure** this is what we want?"

            Of course we're not sure. The majority was far too small to justify such a significant change.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @ Doctor Syntax

              @ Doctor Syntax

              "Of course we're not sure. The majority was far too small to justify such a significant change."

              I love this argument and it is so right. After being forced for over a decade into the EU for them to ensnare us with their wonder they didnt get a majority support nor did they get a majority at all. So we should not be part of the huge change that is the EU and we should not be strapped to it as it 'reforms' itself. We have the right not to join the economic shame that is the EU.

        2. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          @ John Mangan

          "So, if even committed Brexiteers can't get a deal that is not entirely crippling for the country you would rather just plough ahead regardless? Wow!"

          You seem to be mocking me for the idea of smacking myself in the face (your interpretation btw) while suggesting we should remain in a club smacking themselves in the face? Wow.

          Look at global threats the the world economy. The UK is very little of it so no Brexit is not a global threat. China is and I wish them the best of luck. So is the EU with their crisis over crisis. Their currency is self harming, their political unity is under question, their unemployment stats are abysmal and so on. And you want us to stay in that regardless? Wow.

          We know the EU is doomed as it is. So it with either change significantly or collapse. What that significant change would be we have no idea. How many members must be sacrificed before that point is unknown. If the EU survives that we dont know. So no I dont want to plough on ahead regardless, I want out of that doomed wreck.

          1. John Mangan

            Re: @ Doctor Syntax

            "So no I dont want to plough on ahead regardless, I want out of that doomed wreck"

            . . . even if your Brexiteer heroes can't get a good deal for that exit. We're not talking about eternity here; we're talking about making sure that out economoy doesn't fall off a cliff before world+dog trades equally/more profitably with us. Even on a doomed wreck its worth leaving with a lifeboat or two. The rest of your post is just diversionary hand-waving.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: @ Doctor Syntax

              @ John Mangan

              "We're not talking about eternity here; we're talking about making sure that out economoy doesn't fall off a cliff before world+dog trades equally/more profitably with us."

              Which only happens once we leave and can negotiate. Nothing before that can happen. The EU economy is in crisis and falling off a cliff. That is why they are so scared of brexit. What you call handwaving is the economics of the EU. High unemployment and currency crisis is economics, and it is unsound in the EU.

              @ Charlie Clark

              "Do we? That's news to me"

              Ok well you dont know. But the UK does as does the EU (see BoE/IMF/etc statements pre referendum) which is why the EU is pushing its ever closer union stuff. The currency is again in trouble as people look to Italy (again now the referendum is over) and massive cracks are showing through the many crisis.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: @ Doctor Syntax

                I'm really curious about codejunky the person, I've had a peek at his/her posting history and can't find evidence of their addiction to either IT or code. Can he/her point me at a few of his/her posts that aren't about politics on here just so we can assess if codejunky is really interested in IT, a link to a few code projects that you have spawned being such a coding junky and in what language you practice your art, or your just some paid shrill with a name that fits the site?

                1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
                  Thumb Up

                  Re: @ Doctor Syntax

                  I'm really curious about codejunky the person

                  Most of the posts do seem to be related to the referendum. Wonder if it's someone from the "50 kopek" brigade. The speech patterns are inconsistent and indicate a non-British speaker. Some examples:

                  I absolutely voted leave

                  then your in for a bit of an upsetting surprise.

                  My tip is a troll. Downvotes only in future.

              2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
                Megaphone

                Re: Scaremongering

                Ok well you dont know. But the UK does as does the EU (see BoE/IMF/etc statements pre referendum) which is why the EU is pushing its ever closer union stuff. The currency is again in trouble as people look to Italy (again now the referendum is over) and massive cracks are showing through the many crisis.

                Which particular statements are you referring to? Both the BoE and the IMF said that the UK was likely to go into recession and that the rest of the EU would suffer. Oh, hang on. Wasn't that shameless scaremongering by clueless "experts"? If it was wrong to try and worry people about the economic consequences of leaving the EU before the referendum, how come its okay to mutter vague threats of doom now?

                What should Italy do about its banks? Surely it couldn't nationalise them like the UK did with RBS and Lloyds, and the Germans did with Commerzbank? Fun fact: bailing out Italy's banks will be a lot cheaper than the ECB continuing its financial repression.

                And, despite the UK's growing deficit, I'm really worried about companies relocating there to take advantage of the smell of freedom. Huawei recently opened a massive campus here. Should I be out there protesting against the jobs they're stealing? Or maybe asking for one? Or begging them not to relocate to the UK because we Europeans are obviously not as good at doing trade deals as people like Liam Fox?

                I spent last night putting brown paper on the windows. I also bought lots of tinned food and bottled water. Do you have any more tips?

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: Scaremongering

                  @ Charlie Clark

                  "Which particular statements are you referring to? Both the BoE and the IMF said that the UK was likely to go into recession and that the rest of the EU would suffer"

                  Not quite. Before the referendum (as I said) they clearly pointed at the economic threat that is the Eurozone. The IMF threatening to pull out of the deal to just about prop up Greece because the EU were destroying it with bad policy. The BoE worried about the damage we will suffer for being tied to close to the trading block which is trying not to become Japan economically. And of course the IMF arguing against UK policy until it then recognised it as working while the Eurozone needed to do something about its self inflicted crisis.

                  "What should Italy do about its banks?"

                  Due to the rules of the EU it is boned. The rules make it a punishment on its way and the problem was recognised long before our referendum. Will they be the next sacrifice for the utopia union?

                  "Fun fact: bailing out Italy's banks will be a lot cheaper than the ECB continuing its financial repression"

                  Bailing out Greece would have been cheaper too. Even the FED was shocked that the EU would inflict such self harm.

                  "And, despite the UK's growing deficit, I'm really worried about companies relocating there to take advantage of the smell of freedom. Huawei recently opened a massive campus here."

                  There, here? Funny how your running around in panic yet we have not started leaving. You may want professional help to get you through the stressful 2 years of negotiations.

                  1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

                    Re: Scaremongering

                    There, here? Funny how your running around in panic yet we have not started leaving. You may want professional help to get you through the stressful 2 years of negotiations.

                    Haha, you fucking UKIP numpty: "here" is Düsseldorf. So, in this thoroughly undemocratic EU I'll also get to give my voice on any deal Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber™ try and come up with. Guess what? I'm not keen on free access to single market.

                    But it also seems your sarcasm detector is broken.

                    1. codejunky Silver badge

                      Re: Scaremongering

                      @ Charlie Clark

                      I thought you were giving up responding because you dislike my English. Or are you just no longer responding to content? And why would I assume you are in Düsseldorf? You could be on the space station for all I care. On the plus side Düsseldorf is still in the EU so you can enjoy your union and we can enjoy being outside it.

                      You sound like a betrayed lover or something. The UK still sits on the same part of the world and is willing to keep trading. The world has yet to end.

                      1. phil 27
                        IT Angle

                        Re: Scaremongering

                        I'm not Charlie, but I'd like to see evidence of your IT credentials too raised by the AC post and commented on by Charlie. While you might have a silver badge, all of your posts in your history appear to be political.

                        Should it matter? it does to me & it probably does for others here. I like coding in various languages & I've done a fair bit of it over the years, it makes me a borderline aspergers slave to logic but I value logic. I don't have a silver badge because I normally only contribute when I have something to say about tech & IT, and not fishing for upvotes. A bit like being on twitter as a apparent placeholder, only to spring into life when it matters.

                        So are you a Code junky, or are you a opinion steerer? There's no shame in the latter, provided your not trying to pretend to be the former.

          2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Stop

            Re: @ Doctor Syntax

            We know the EU is doomed as it is.

            Do we? That's news to me. What should those of us in the EU do? Duck and cover, perhaps? Create a Ministry of Unfeasible Trade Agreements?

            1. Paul Shirley

              Re: @ Doctor Syntax

              We know the EU is doomed as it is.

              Wasn't that part of the brexiteer mantra, where we lead lots of european countries are eager to follow. I wonder if the relative quiet on that has anything to do with the massive polling swing from leave to remain in Denmark, after they saw the brexit result? Reality often has that effect on wishful thinking.

              Far from doomed, with UK obstruction removed and the brexit nudge of fear the EU can finally start on genuine reform. Not the UK version where 'reform = pay less, opt out more' but never 'do things better and be more democratic'.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: @ Doctor Syntax

                @ Paul Shirley

                "Wasn't that part of the brexiteer mantra, where we lead lots of european countries are eager to follow."

                Actually there were 2 narratives. First there are a lot of eyes on the door, lets not be the one left behind when sense kicks in. And of course that others are looking. Still true. Claiming victory while waiting for the starter pistol is not a good idea. Maybe you should wait until brexit before claiming any kind of victory. Or you can complain brexit caused the rain as well.

                "Far from doomed, with UK obstruction removed and the brexit nudge of fear the EU can finally start on genuine reform."

                Reform must happen anyway. The EU is doomed as it is, no hope, total failure. What will the reformed one look like and how far will it go? And we can watch the carnage from a safe distance.

              2. CowardlyLion

                Re: @ Doctor Syntax

                One effect of the Brexit vote is that there has been a huge upswing in support for the EU across the continent .

                "Support for the European Union has surged to multi-year highs in the bloc’s biggest countries following last month’s Brexit vote, according to a poll that will disappoint Eurosceptic parties hoping to usher their own nations out of the EU.

                http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/eu-support-surges-in-big-european-countries-after-brexit-vote/article31017083/

          3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: @ Doctor Syntax

            "We know the EU is doomed as it is. ... I want out of that doomed wreck."

            Your first statement may well be true. But there will be a lot which will be salvageable from that wreck, perhaps something like an EEC 2.0 and we won't be in it.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "high unemployment, high youth unemployment, recessions, ..."

        You fail to notice that no one of those are because of EU rules - exactly the other way round. Many of those countries created their own problems because of terrible governments, and would have had catastrophic collapses if outside the EU. Situations like those in Italy and Greece, for example, pre-date the Euro and often pre-date the whole EU as well.

        The catastrophic situation in South Italy (the North is on par with Germany....), for example, is a 150 year long issue (and even more), which was never properly addressed and resolved because of abject political reasons. A huge amount of resources was simply wasted (accumulating huge debts and leading to high taxes) to keep "peasants" calm enough (and feed mafias), and ensure vote tanks to their "ruling class". Now that there are no longer much local money to waste, the situation became critical. Many politicians hope to keep on wasting resources to keep their comfortable position trying to use now other EU countries ones - especially Germany -, blaming the EU for everything (to distract from their own corruption and malfeasance) until it happens. It's the "leech approach". Mr. Renzi in his attempt to win his own Autumn referendum to strengthen his power in the years to come is a perfect example. Despite the critical situation, he's trying to *buy* consensus promising more subsidies and the like, attempting to finance them with more debt - while avoiding to cut wastes despite three "spending review" commissioners - whose results and advises were binned each time, they would have cut sources of political controlled privileges and votes.

        Is the EU asking that? Not at all - just the personal lust for power of the actual prime minister. Who cares if Italy is in a dire situation, better to be king in hell that a serf in Paradise, wrote a British...

        More or less the same happened in Greece, and with varying degrees, in other countries, where urgent reforms were never made because they have crippled the "businesses" of the political class and their friendly crooks.

        The "imposed austerity" is just an attempt to stop some countries to sink the ship because of pure selfishness, after all the same reason Great Britain decided to leave the ship itself.

      4. strum

        Re: @ Doctor Syntax

        >is not democracy.

        Referendums are a parody of democracy.

      5. hewbass

        Re: @ Doctor Syntax

        @codejunky so if during negotiations it becomes clear that if Brexit will wreck the country without being able to realise any of the benefits that the electorate voted Exit for and staying in the EU would be a much better idea, then you would still want us to leave?

        if we had voted to remain, I would expect that if it became clear that our EU membership was a big problem we would want an opportunity to review that situation again.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          @ hewbass

          "so if during negotiations it becomes clear that if Brexit will wreck the country without being able to realise any of the benefits that the electorate voted Exit for and staying in the EU would be a much better idea, then you would still want us to leave?"

          Very probably. If you ignore almost everything then you are right, it seems mad. But if you look at the failure that is the EU and the continuing and huge crisis being inflicted on its members then we need to compare against that. And as I say, they already know it is doomed and are struggling to get the political will to do anything about it. Outside of that (but trading with them) if far better and less damaging.

          "if we had voted to remain, I would expect that if it became clear that our EU membership was a big problem we would want an opportunity to review that situation again."

          You may expect but you wouldnt get. It took over a decade to get this single vote. By blind luck of the chancellor hating the PM we didnt join the Euro. This was a clear vote where majority wins with no messing about and yet people are still arguing over it and some trying to subvert the result. Junker already told us (day before the vote) that the deal Cameron got if we remain needed to be voted yet and wouldnt get through. Already they are trying to push for tighter integration so it is even harder to get out.

          Look at the hatred against democracy just from this vote. You think there would be another one?

        2. gnasher729 Silver badge

          Re: @ Doctor Syntax

          I think the first thing during negotiations will be an offer from the EU to change the UK weekly payments to £345 million, five million less than the Brexiters claimed.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "If they can actually put a viable proposition together then all well and good. Personally I'll be surprised but pleased."

      I voted Remain and this is exactly how I feel. I would love a nice surprise after the gut punch of the result.

  7. John Mangan

    This is the nub of it . .

    "All are waiting to hear what the rebooted Conservative government under Prime Minister Theresa May means when she says “Brexit means Brexit"."

    One month on and NOBODY knows what Brexit means. There seem to me to be three planks for the Leavers:

    - No free movement (take back control)

    - No EU 'subscription' (take back control)

    - Access to the single market (don't want to reallly f@ck the economy before the world comes banging down the doors now that 'Britain is open for business').

    I cannot see anyway there can be a three for three deal worked out. So will the anti-immigrant leavers be happy if their bete-noir is abandoned or will the 'money wasted' supporters be happy if the other two are the deal?

    And if we lose access to the single market (on current terms) how bad an economic shock will THAT be?

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Re: This is the nub of it . .

      Stuff I've read this weekend makes me think the EU will offer the 7-year emergency break that they offered before the referendum and in return the UK will move to the EEA, pay a similar amount each year, and not get a voice at the table because it was very naughty and rocked the boat.

      The UK may use that emergency break time to negotiate trade deals before leaving the EEA or it may try to carry on just like that (probably politically unsustainable).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This is the nub of it . .

      "One month on and NOBODY knows what Brexit means"

      I think that it's pretty clear:

      1) We give up out democratic say in how the EU operates, because we can't deal with the fact the 27 other countries also want to have their democratic say.

      2) Then we realise that we can't "take back control" because we never had control over the 27 other countries in the EU to start with.

      3) Then we learn the trade deals are all about having to create laws and do things that we don't like. Only now we're going to have 100s of different ones, not just the harmonized EU trade agreements.

      4) At some point we realise that the other countries in the EU had interests that aligned with the UK. That's why being a member of a forum to discuss and implement these interests was useful.

      5) Finally we remember that Britain was indeed a trading county about 250 years ago, but we mostly did it by sending trade boats out with the Royal Navy (and East India company) to set things up at gun point. That's why we got such good trading deals back then...

      1. gnasher729 Silver badge

        Re: This is the nub of it . .

        "5) Finally we remember that Britain was indeed a trading county about 250 years ago, but we mostly did it by sending trade boats out with the Royal Navy (and East India company) to set things up at gun point. That's why we got such good trading deals back then..."

        Now should Britain send some warships into the general direction of Gibraltar, there might be some Spanish, French and Italian ships doing manoeuvers in their way.

    3. Jules 1

      Re: This is the nub of it . .

      There is no possiblity to "take two" of your options, either of points one and two exclude the possibility of three happening.

      The single market is a single market of goods, services AND jobs. The rest of the EU have said very clearly that single market access means accepting freedom of movement and that it is non negotiable. It's not just Germany we'd be dealing with, any other EU member will be able to veto a prospective agreement if it's not acceptable to them. The eastern block countries (Poland especially) will never allow a deal where we retain market access without freedom of movement.

      Countries which have access to the single market still contribute to the EU budget and we would pay about the same amount as we currently do as members.

      In the single market as non members we'll have to accept EU directives but with no voice or role in defining the rules (no MEPs, no seat at the Council of Ministers, no EU commissioner, no rotating Presidency where we can set the agenda) it really will be the undemocratic (for us) "EU" dictating to us in a far more real sense than that which was put forward as a reason to vote for brexit..

      The Brexiters never had any viable plan, there is no way forward for Britain outside of Europe that doesn't involve huge amounts of economic pain and the probable break up of the UK.

      Trying to put on a brave face and make the best of it isn't the answer, democracy didn't stop with the brexit vote, the only reasonable response is to remain angry, keep demonstrating against this madness, keep talking about the issues and vote for a party that will keep us in Europe.

      1. John Mangan

        Re: This is the nub of it . .

        "There is no possibility to "take two" of your options, either of points one and two exclude the possibility of three happening."

        I tend to agree with you but I was trying to imagine that because of economic fears/breakup of the EU/any other of the Brexiteer's suggestions for why we would get special treatment we *might* manage a "two out of three ain't bad" agreement but even on this (unlikely) basis I can't see the 'leavers' being happy.

        And that only leaves a break with tariffs/visas/etc. (WTO or EU-agreed) which hurts everybody, <Very sad face>.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @ Jules 1

        "vote for a party that will keep us in Europe"

        Can't happen. You got into this mess by a Tory party desperate enough to stay in power it bribed the leaver electorate with a referendum. Advisory weasel words or not, the referendum and consequences of it's result is an election promise. Ignoring it will make the country ungovernable.

        The Tory faction that claimed they could delay brexit till 2020 (just in time to stay in power on the back of it or in Boris' case just in time to crawl into the PM job off a narrow brexit defeat) were dumped. brexit will be unstoppable before another election is held. And it has to be that way, the leave voters will never accept it without actually trying brexit.

        Labour and Tory both resist electoral reform that would challenge their cosy taking turns wrecking the country, unfettered by consensus building or caring about the majority that didn't vote for the winner. Just like their efforts to neuter democracy in Europe. Not a chance of any saner politicians ever forming government.

        Finally, what makes you think England & Wales will be offered terms to rejoin that can be sold to voters? 27 vetoes is a lot to overcome.

        1. Jules 1

          Re: @ Jules 1

          The UK is still a member. We won't be leaving any time soon even if article 50 is invoked a future government could withdraw the application to leave within 2 years. This would seriously piss off the other members but it would still be better than leaving.

          Once the economic damage of brexit really starts to sink in they are going to delay it as much as possible. It's the reason we haven't invoked article 50 yet and it's the reason we won't be doing so any time soon. Teresa May campaigned for remain and whatever she says now to maintain party unity means little in terms of whether she will actually go ahead with brexit.

          Assuming people vote the same way as the recent referendum, within 3-4 years the brexit majority will have disappeared due to demographic changes (around 450,000 people over 60 die every year and around 700,000 new voters turn 18) that's without factoring in the huge number of people who change their mind once they start to feel the coming economic carnage.

          Frankly the county is far more likely to become ungovernable if we press ahead with brexit, those aged 18-25 are more apt to demonstrate and riot than the pensioners who put us in this sorry situation.

          1. Paul Shirley

            Re: @ Jules 1

            @Jules 1: I think you underestimate the constitutional tarpit the Torys are in.

            They got into power on the back of an election promise for a referendum. There's no credible interpretation where that doesn't also imply an election promise to implement the result. Not if they ever want to be believed in an election campaign again. If they stay in power they have to brexit.

            But they can't just call another election, that would require a vote of no confidence, with an absolute majority of tory MPs that would be seen as dishonest and again wreck their future chances. Possibly enrage the leavers enough to give us a UKIP government and civil war shortly after. They can't quit before implementing brexit.

            So that leaves delay. Boris thought he could get away with it, but Boris was panicking after unexpectedly 'winning', his plan to grab the 2020 election set a timescale dependent on losing and he isn't quick enough to come up with a better one.

            Europe isn't going to quietly wait while the UK stalls. EU politicians and eurocrats have made it clear they expect the UK to leave, none showing any sign they think it can be undone. Anyone that thinks unnecessary delay has any bargaining value is mistaken. The EU know the UK gov must leave, they understood the constitutional implications right from the start. The UK is negotiating from a position of weakness and really shouldn't be annoying anyone right now.

            The quicker this happens the sooner the UK mess can be fixed, one way or another. Pretty sure England & Wales will not regain entry during my lifetime, whatever a future gov or electorate wants.

            1. gnasher729 Silver badge

              Re: @ Jules 1

              "They got into power on the back of an election promise for a referendum. There's no credible interpretation where that doesn't also imply an election promise to implement the result. "

              Look, Brexit one based on the lie that the UK is paying £350 million a week into the EU and a new hospital could be built every week with that many, where everybody knows nowadays that was just Johonson's and Farage's lies, and there will be no money for new hospitals in the next ten years. And they would be pointless anyway when all the foreigners get thrown out and there are no nurses anymore. So what credible interpretation should force the government to jump down a cliff because of a referendum won by blatant lies?

            2. Vic

              Re: @ Jules 1

              The UK is negotiating from a position of weakness

              And therein lies the problem with the whole sorry business.

              I've never been a fan of the EU - I think it was a mistake to join in the first place[1]. But laying all your cards face-up at the beginning of the game and giving away your position has to be a mistake.

              Vic.

              [1] Although not the EEC - that's a good thing. It's the "ever closer political ties" thing that I dislike.

          2. Vic

            Re: @ Jules 1

            Teresa May campaigned for remain

            She really didn't.

            She might nominally have been on that side, but that was more about not getting sacked from her position. Her silence on remaining oin the UK was defeaning...

            Vic.

      3. Down not across

        Re: This is the nub of it . .

        Countries which have access to the single market still contribute to the EU budget and we would pay about the same amount as we currently do as members.

        Except I can't fathom there being the rebate anymore so UK would actually pay in more than before.

      4. gnasher729 Silver badge

        Re: This is the nub of it . .

        "The Brexiters never had any viable plan, there is no way forward for Britain outside of Europe that doesn't involve huge amounts of economic pain and the probable break up of the UK."

        Farage had a plan, and told everyone: His plan for the last fifteen yeears was to leave the EU, consequences be damned. A nice side benefit is that he will get a huge salary for being an "MEP" for the next two and a half years or so for doing sod all. Just as the years before.

      5. Vic

        Re: This is the nub of it . .

        we would pay about the same amount as we currently do as members.

        We wouldn't.

        Our gross contribution will be similar, but we will lose the rebate we currently get. So we will end up paying significantly more...

        Vic.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Histrionics

    “I was shocked and horrified,” says Kate Craig-Wood

    I was very surprised by the Brexit vote. I think most people were. But I wasn't shocked, or horrified - those are the sorts of emotions I would expect in response to the awful recent events in France and Germany. Or when we all found our just how despicable Jimmy Savile really was. The sort of events where people are damaged, injured and killed.

    Whoever Kate Craig-Wood is, if she really wants to be taken seriously, then she should attempt to express herself as if she wasn't 14. Until she speaks like an adult, I'm just going to assume that she's just another one of the many immature and hysterical media rent-a-gobs we have to suffer, and I'll await more a balanced view.

    1. mlvj

      Re: Histrionics

      I personally was shocked and horrified.

      This is a seriously big event. It is different to terror attacks, but that does not mean that I cannot feel shock or horror. I was at a festival when the result had been announced, and at that festival, a lot of political speakers (mainly satirical admittedly like Jeremy Hardy, Marcus Brigstock, Steven K Amos, Shappi Korsandi, and so on) - all presented a shocked and horrified set.

      1. lorisarvendu

        Re: Histrionics

        I took was shocked and horrified. Now I am just depressed. Mainly on three counts.

        i work for a UK university that faces losing EU Research grants, and that may have a bearing on my continued employment in the future.

        My wife works for a High Street financial institution that has now announced the start of a phase of branch closures and redundancies, citing Brexit as the reason. This may or may not be the true reason, but it could have a bearing on her continued employment in the future.

        My son has just started his first job - an apprenticeship in the pharmaceutical industry. His apprenticeship is funded by the EU. He is worried that this could have a bearing on his continued employment in the future.

        Thanks Brexit.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Histrionics

      Agreed, so many blow this out proportion with the language used. It's not like the British to over react to anything though is it. So much negativity. I look forward to doomsday, when it arrives (never).

    3. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

      Re: Histrionics

      I am still shocked and horrified. It feels like being on a plane when 52% of the passengers vote to turn off the engines having been promised it will be okay if they do.

      If people want to be part of a suicide death cult then that's their choice. I am less than happy about being forcibly co-opted into one when I voted against that.

      1. Valerion

        Re: Histrionics

        I am still shocked and horrified. It feels like being on a plane when 52% of the passengers vote to turn off the engines having been promised it will be okay if they do.

        It's not even that. It's more like being on a plane when only 75% of the passengers actually bothered to vote, a great number of the passengers don't have long to live anyway, the 16-18 year olds were excluded from voting, and in the end only 37% of the passengers actually voted to turn off the engines, but we've all gotta die anyway.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Histrionics

          "a great number of the passengers don't have long to live anyway"

          Oi! Less of the ageism!. Don't just assume that we oldies voted Leave. Some of us voted Remain. After all we have children and grandchildren to think of. And, speaking personally, I'd like an economy that's still able to pay my pension.

    4. keithpeter

      Re: Histrionics

      "I was very surprised by the Brexit vote. I think most people were. But I wasn't shocked, or horrified - those are the sorts of emotions I would expect in response to the awful recent events in France and Germany."

      I have, at various points, experienced severe stress at work. I have been physically sick in the toilet as a result of seeing £1.3 x 106 of a £9 x 106 budget disappear in minutes on audit/writedown/clawback, with full awareness of the implications (35+ redundancies as it happens when it all played out). And that was as a spectator not a protagonist.

      Perhaps the OA was struggling for words and is not accustomed to this kind of paradigm change. I was not surprised (given the closeness of the polls and the intelligence from local politicians), but I did experience that mild sense of unreality as I logged the probable consequences on that Friday morning.

      This is a dogs dinner of a situation that has been brought down on us because of a split in the Tory party and the need to placate a minority of Tory MPs, and because of electoral fear of UKIP. The consequences will take a decade or two to work through and will result in a significant depression and job loss in the UK. I've seen that one before. UK will survive, and stuff will get made and sold. But I know who is going to pay the money for this, and it won't be Nigel, or David, or for that matter, the bankers.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Histrionics

        35+ redundancies as it happens...

        That sounds a horrible situation but you could see what was coming. But no-one truly knows which way Brexit will take us. Might be fine, might not be. But I can't see that remaining in Europe will do us any good either. We were in Europe in 2007/8 right in the banking crisis. And what did Europe do to help us? Nothing much really - the only way we really got through it is because our central bank owned the currency and had the balls to do some of what needed doing. They should've done a lot more a lot sooner to be sure but they pee all over the ECB from a great height.

        But the childish histrionics and tantrums really have to stop. The country voted, this happened. Deal with it.

        1. Paul Shirley

          Re: Histrionics

          Until the sick man of Europe stops delaying and actually fucks off out of the EU 'dealing with it' can't begin.

  9. itzman
    WTF?

    Location of staff

    .. consider Barcelona as an alternative. “Certainly it’s much easier to recruit someone than in London, where there is fierce competition, especially for developers,” he says.

    My java developer nephew left London for Sydney and 'twice the pay, half the work and better lifestyle'.

    With the pound even lower against the Euro, being a developer in Barcelona must be complete rubbish.

    After all, if cheap coders is what you want, India is the place to go.

    1. Dummy00001

      Re: Location of staff

      If you want to sell software to European public sector, then some share of it must be developed in EU.

      Most software is anyway coupled with the support contracts, and phoning India for support is never going to sell here.

  10. Yugguy

    YAWN

    "IF" doom and gloom, "MAY" doom and gloom, "COULD" doom and gloom.

    Which was basically the entire Remoan manifesto.

    Which was why you lost.

    The significance of headlines such as "Cameron considered last-ditch appeal to Merkel" seems lost on you. Unless you liked being run by Germany.

    1. John Mangan

      Re: YAWN

      Well done on answering all/any of the substantive points above. I'm convinced.

      1. Yugguy

        Re: YAWN

        Thanks.

        Brexit FOR THE WIN.

        Yes, of course it was a competition.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Unless you liked being run by Germany."

      I actually wouldn't mind the UK to be run by the Germany government. I've been to Germany and the result seems to be a lot better than what we get in the UK...

    3. Lusty

      Re: YAWN

      "Unless you liked being run by Germany"

      In what way are we being run by Germany? I looked into it, and it turns out we're being run by a democracy which we partly elected (we can't elect all of it, obviously!), and that we were due to take the presidency of next year. If you didn't vote in the European elections then that's your own issue.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: YAWN

      "Which was why you lost."

      This bit always perplexes me. I thought we were voting for the best possible future for our country - not competing with each other for bragging rights.

      So, what did you win?

    5. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: YAWN

      The significance of headlines such as "Cameron considered last-ditch appeal to Merkel" seems lost on you. Unless you liked being run by Germany.

      Germany's role in the EU, and in particular in the Council of Ministers, is constantly overstated because it makes for good headlines.

      As things stand at the moment: Merkel is almost a lame duck Chancellor thanks to a short-sighted, if heart-warming, policy towards Syrian refugees.

    6. smartypants

      Re: YAWN

      "Unless you liked being run by Germany"

      The Germany of the Little Englanders is a fictional world painted by tabloid headline.

      Those on the continent with a similar mistrust of 'foreigners' are doing well today. If small-mindedness can break out in the UK, then why not elsewhere?

      Before we know it, Europe will be 'freed' by right wing movements "taking their country back", each led by xenophobes trading insults with their neighbours and little else, and we can get back to the living standards of the 1970s again.

      1. Yugguy

        Re: YAWN

        I should really have titled my post DOUBLE YAWN.

        I don't mistrust foreigners. I voted against the UNION, NOT the PEOPLE.

        A simple distinction none of you Remainers seem able to make.

        Or I could play Remain Bingo.

        It's like management bullshit bingo except you look for words such as "daily mail", "working class", "stupid", "little englander", "UKIP", "shocked", "horrified", "xenophobe", "racist"

        I've got a full-house just off this page.

    7. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: YAWN

      ""IF" doom and gloom, "MAY" doom and gloom, "COULD" doom and gloom.

      Which was basically the entire Remoan manifesto.

      Which was why you lost."

      We lost. And you lost. You are just in denial. You fucked up Britain, with your eyes closed. You are just like the idiots who didn't give measles injections to their kids because the experts said it was safe, and rather listened to a liar. Just like you listened to the liars Johnson and Farage and fucked it all up.

  11. David Roberts
    Windows

    Chicken/egg?

    We hire immigrants because there are not enough local skills.

    Or.

    There are not enough local skills because we hire immigrants.

    .

    If there was a true labour shortage then there would be more incentive to hire locally and train.

    There might also be an incentive to improve working conditions and pay in the current zero hour seasonal minimum wage jobs.

    This might, of course, cut into supermarket profits and increase the cost of the very cheap food.

    The choices then would probably be to scrap the Uk farming industry and import everything or perhaps impose an import tariff to prevent the dumping of cheap food from low cost production areas on the continent.

    EU migrants come here because despite working conditions and accomodation possibly being worse that they might see at home the overall package is better. Else why move? Economic slavery is probably marginally better than unemployment.

    Shit! I'm sounding like a Brexiteer.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Chicken/egg?

      We hire immigrants because there are not enough local skills.

      This applies only to a very small part of the market: technology and, to a lesser extent the trades, where years of little or regulation has deskilled the workforce.

      The UK has imported EU nationals largely to work in labour intensive fields such as agriculture because the English won't do the work for the wages on offer.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Chicken/egg?

      Britain was shipping in cheap workers long before joining Europe and the same racist whining was happening. But no one here ever wants the shitty service jobs. But too few of them put the effort in to get skilled and if you can't do the work it was never yours to lose.

  12. Woodnag

    Counting chickens etc

    Brexit is not a done deal.

    If it was, Article 50 would have invoked already and started the 2 year negotiation window.

    The main hurdle, which the polititions are pretending doesn't exist, is that UK cannot negotiate post-EU treaties whilst it is in the EU. Thtat's EU law - all treaty negotion must be done under the UK umbrealla. UK is trying to get special treatment, but Germany for sure will not allow that, to stop others following.

    Give it six months to a year, enough time for May to completely lock down the UK with snooper's charter etc, and she'll say that Brexit ain't happenin' old bean, and she'll call a general election. Probably win it too, if the media is handled right between now and then.

  13. N000dles
    Mushroom

    Trade deals?

    I can’t see any reason other than political for the rush to sign up the Ukraine to closer integration when EU member states have said no to it. You then have the deal that was on the table with Canada kicked into touch. This was a deal that would have helped the problem of Europe not growing. In this context how one can say the EU is great for European peace when it doesn’t sign the deals that offer economic benefits but will rush and ignore it’s citizens to cement a deal that is a huge fat finger poked in Putin’s eye.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Trade deals?

      Well if its Ukraine you want to bring onto the table, the UK doesn't have a great position to start from as its signed up to the Budapest Memorandum of Security Assurances but I guess the money running through UK businesses from Russia was too high a stake...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

      If this is the kind of assurances that the UK brings on the global stage, I guess there's a precedence for having a certain reputation.

    2. H in The Hague Silver badge

      Re: Trade deals?

      "... a deal that is a huge fat finger poked in Putin’s eye."

      That's one way of looking at it. Another way would be "... standing up to a bully."

    3. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Trade deals?

      I can’t see any reason other than political for the rush to sign up the Ukraine to closer integration when EU member states have said no to it.

      No to what, exactly?

      The EU's foreign policy focusses heavily on soft power using things like trade agreements to shore up neighbouring countries because the last thing the EU wants are neighbours that are failed states. In case you hadn't noticed: the Ukraine's economy has been a mess for years after being plundered by the oligarchs and it was getting close to collapse. An association agreement offers alternative markets for famers and the electronics industry and also the prospect of the rule of law. Many people don't realise that, despite its many problems, how attractive the EU is for people in eastern Europe: reduced threat of going to prison for saying the wrong thing; being paid on time; drinking clean water; etc.

      Putin talks a good talk but is, nukes notwithstanding, no longer in much of a position militarily. Otherwise he would have marched all the way to Kiev and Lviv two years ago. This is why he's forced to do deals with fellow failure Erdogan, even though they have diametrically opposed interests in Syria. That's going to work out well. :-(

  14. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    Everything will be fine, UK gov will negotiate a good deal for Britain, as explained here.

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