Windows8.2=10 is a fraud and a scam!
Microsoft must be fined $500billion and disappear as it deserves for this mess!
Microsoft's free Windows 10 upgrade offer runs out this Friday, 29 July 2016, one year after the initial release, and a few days before the Anniversary Update. "This is more than a one-time upgrade: once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime of the device – …
Many people are jumping on the free upgrade but they fail to understand one thing. this upgrade is only good for their current system specs. if you decide to later change out your motherboard. That will void your free upgrade on Win 10 at that point you have to either buy a new copy of 10 or go back to Win 7 that you have a license for. I can see where many will end up back reving to Win 7 because most are not going to want to buy a Win 10 licenses.
Me personally, Ill never install 10.
"...once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime* of the device... and then leave you with a device which we've locked by our "Secure [sic] Boot" mechanism to an OS which we'll suddenly start informing you is an absolutely horrendous unmitigated security catastrophe."
*i.e. Until the Microsoft Corporation Inc. (NASDAQ: MSFT) decides at its sole discretion that it's time for you to pay another round of
danegeld "essential" (MS taxed) hardware "upgrades." Must keep that old treadmill turning...
The Register was brought to you today by the letters M and $ and the number 10
> for the supported lifetime* of the device
They have never explained the term "supported lifetime of the device". The device (PC, phone, ...) is supported by the warranty. If you buy a new PC with Windows 10 then the warranty is 12, 24, or 36 months depending on supplier, laws, and/or extended options. After this period, it seems, you will no longer be covered by the 'at no cost' part of the assurance and will be required to go on subscription.
With existing machines that have taken the 'free' upgrade but are out of the OEM's warranty* then perhaps you will be charged starting next month.
* it may be a requirement on the OEM to supply identifying information and warranty expire date to MS, they can then match this with the telemetry data gathered by W10.
'They have never explained the term "supported lifetime of the device".'
As far as the UK is concerned there seems to be a likely collision with Trading Standards at some point and with the corresponding regulators in other countries with strong customer protection legislation. Maybe not in France if it gets banned completely due to their run-in with CNIL
Under UK Consumer Law, no version of Windows has ever been "fit for purpose". This is just one of the ways you can get your money back from the Windoze Tax you're forced to pay if you want a modern machine.
I've just received refunds for 124 copies of Windoze 8 that were pre-installed on to my new office machines. I told HP that I didn't want Windoze, but they insisted that I couldn't have the computers unless I took their pre-loaded crapware. I have a favourable pricing deal with them, and the computer specification was just what we needed (as long as it has our corporate spin on Ubuntu on it), so buying from them was sensible....
We tested two of the batch of machines with the provided OS and software. Both failed in one way or another within the first 20 minutes, so the OS and software was obviously not "fit for purpose". HP didn't quibble - in fact, they agree with us, and refunded us over 40% of the purchase price of the machines on the understanding that we'd delete the contents of the hard drives and not register any of the pre-installed rubbish!
Strangely, HP are beginning to offer Ubuntu pre-installs again......
I told HP that I didn't want Windoze, but they insisted that I couldn't have the computers unless I took their pre-loaded crapware.
I take it you didn't say: "Well I'll just have to place my order with Dell then"? It might have saved you a lot of faffing around.
[Aside] As far as crapware goes, I was pleasantly surprised by its absence when I purchased my ASUS Zenbook with Win7. [/Aside]
They have never explained the term "supported lifetime of the device".
I think it is less nefarious as most here think.
Simple fact is that with Windows10 the updates keep coming. At some point they will need to update the kernel in a way you will need new drivers. Tough luck, if your hardware is not supported any more.
In that sense it might be better to stay on a older windows version, as they will be more stable. It depends on your hardware manufacturer's performance.
"Simple fact is that with Windows10 the updates keep coming. At some point they will need to update the kernel in a way you will need new drivers. Tough luck, if your hardware is not supported any more."
- As Londo Mollari might put it "To you, this is less nefarious?". Above sounds nefarious enough, at any time, without notice (if you are not keeping track of update details, which most users don't) any peripheral can suddenly stop working or your entire computer.
Unlikely, (but maybe), not so much a shot to the foot as to the head. It sounds like updates will be like a game of Russian roulette.
Pure irony, of course.
In any case - in the past you had similar choices- apply the service pack and risk HW compatibility troubles or live with what you have, including a growing risk and SW incompatibility with newer applications.
Rumour has it, that the "Windows 10 Anniversary Edition", due on August 2nd, has a minimum RAM requirement of 2GB, which will kill off most older netbooks and a lot of the tablets that were dumped in the market recently. Perhaps not a great loss, you might say, but under Windows 7 and 8, these devices might have still soldiered on several years.
I wonder, if Microsoft will provide some solution for these devices. Leave them on current Windows 10 and continue to provide updates? Sounds unlikely. Let's see...
"Rumour has it, that the "Windows 10 Anniversary Edition", due on August 2nd, has a minimum RAM requirement of 2GB, which will kill off most older netbooks"
- Obligatory, 'won't kill my netbook off, it's running Ubuntu'. With netbooks, you at least have options, damn all option on the tablets though (and before anybody poo poos unity, I mostly use i3, but there's no i3buntu).
You don't buy new pots and pans just because you replaced the stove...
You don't pay for a new car just because you replaced the engine...
You haven't paid the pots and pans maker to warrant that their wares will both work with your terrifically complicated and rather unique stove, and that the pots and pans maker will provide technical support if they fail to work with said stove.
You don't, in fact, pay for a new computer (car) when you change the motherboard (engine). But you should expect to pay for the creation of the various drivers and other development effort that ensured the same OS will work exactly the same on a totally different piece of hardware. If you replaced your 2014 Ford's engine with a 2016 Ferrari engine, you would pay your mechanic the ensure those different parts contained to work together correctly, no?
If you don't like how MS earns their money, I've heard there might be other options for making your computer go. Apparently you can even help write the programs yourself. For free.
you should expect to pay for the creation of the various drivers and other development effort that ensured the same OS will work exactly the same on a totally different piece of hardware
Surely MS are colluding with hardware makers to force users to purchase new hardware by not providing drivers for existing hardware. Thinking of a friend's vinyl sign-cutter here and the transparency scanner I have that works under XP, but not under Vista or later.
I bought a Jamie Oliver stove and pan. And NOW I have to buy his recipe boxes. :(
It could be worse. I watched this TV chef once called Nigella Lawson. The recipe she was demonstrating and described as "comfort food" was baked beans on toast. You've got to wonder about people needing a TV chef to teach them how to make baked beans on toast...
I once lived with a postdoc physicist who ran fluid dynamic simulations on a Cray and did experiments using the cyclotron under the car park. Every day he had boil in the bag cod and a packet of Smash - I tried to teach him how to make a basic parsley sauce to go with his cod. He loved it, but the cooking of it was simply beyond him - I mean, your white sauce is class 101 of cooking.
"But you should expect to pay for the creation of the various drivers and other development effort that ensured the same OS will work exactly the same on a totally different piece of hardware"
I did pay for that when I bought the hardware in question. Intel wrote the chipset drivers, the motherboard OEM then licensed Intel's drivers and presto... Even older versions of Windows just works.
MS eventually took it upon themselves to distribute the drivers in question (WHQL approved drivers are channeled through Windows Update). Good for them. Doesn't change a thing when it comes to the payment/license model.
Last time I read about MS' license model (back when XP was released I think), the idea was that you could change a number of major hardware components without triggering a re-activation (which had to be done by phone). I expect/hope that is still the case.
FWLIW: I upgraded my 6 year old i7-based rig last week. I was a bit worried, because my Win7 install had never even raised the topic of "Windows 10", so I feared I might not qualify. A few moments later and I was up and running with the latest insider build. No worries. Only annoyed I did not upgrade sooner (I had anticipated a hw-upgrade that I haven't had time to deal with yet).
It's been a while but I am positive I've replaced mainboards (and hard-drives and ...) without buying a new Windows license. I mean, why should I? I am running the same O/S. If anything I should get a rebate since the need for more horsepower is typically because of the way Windows slows down after installing any actually software, particularly if the software was not published in Redmond.
Beginning with Windows 7, if you changed out a motherboard, the Windows running in the computer is deemed (HORRORS!) counterfeit!! This is not something new with Windows 10.
This really screws over people whose motherboards or laptops fail. So you replace the failed motherboard or laptop with an identical model. Should work perfectly, right? Just like Windows XP. Nope. When you activate Windows, the Microsoft borg ship records not just the make/model of the motherboard, but also the serial number. The only recourse here for those who really know hardware is to change the motherboard serial number to match the old one. There are programs squirreled away in vendor web sites to do this, but it ain't easy.
The only recourse here for those who really know hardware is to change the motherboard serial number to match the old one.
Wrong. You phone MS for a new activation code. I have done this several times when my hardware has changed. MoBo included. Then there's the excellent utility Windows.Loader by DAZ.
An endor$ement from dear old El Reg!?.. How could thi$ be? Ha$ the Micro$oft Corporation removed it$
$pyware "telemetry" and forced upgrade$, ju$t in time to entice tho$e la$t few $core percent "holdouts"?????
...or could there be $omething el$se behind thi$ informercial?
Am i right in thinking if you have a dodgy version of win 7 ultimate this will free upgrade to win 10 pro....
Only wonder as my new lappy has win 10 home and could in theory wipe clean install win 7 ultimate and up to 10 pro??
But as it is microshaft will get shafted some where along the way...
I am not sure what you mean by dodgy version.
I made the move a few weeks ago for a new pc and an old latop.
I simply downloaded win10 iso from MS website and created a bootable usb and in both cases, wiped clean.
On the old laptop, I used an windows 7 home OEM key (not even from this laptop!): it worked like a charm (all drivers ok). Booting speed is faster.
On the new pc (nuc6i7kyk), I used the licence key from my windows 7 ultimate box: it worked (there was no "standard" driver for the network card, I had to install them from a usb after downloading on a different pc!).
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I have a test machine that I put a dodgy copy of Windows 7 on (it is old enough to have shipped with XP, and certainly not worth buying Windows 7 to test the upgrade). All I can say is it's been almost a year, and Windows 10 shows no signs of treating it any different than legit installs. However there are many different flavours of "dodgy"; you pays your money (or not), and you takes your chances.
This works: machine originally came with 7 Home Premium. Used the appropriate SLP key/cert for the same manufacturer with a clean install of 7 Ultimate, as you would with a modded BIOS, but no actual mod or loader necessary. Upgraded to 10 Pro, have since clean installed 10 Pro, and it's fully activated.
The free version of Windows 10 is locked to the PC. You probably won't mind if you have an OEM version of Windows 7 or 8 but you might if you have a retail version.
Not my experience.
I had an OEM Windows 7, later upgraded to 8 (carried the OEM License) then upgraded to 10 when the upgrade offer started.
I just swapped motherboard and CPU a few weeks ago. Rebooted off the same hard drive, the system found and installed the drivers for mobo et al. and activated via digital entitlement when I signed on to my Microsoft account. Still activated, running happily on a different motherboard.
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You might think the old way is easier to install windows but your wrong. Resetting a PC is so much easier now. No need for optical media or to keep the key. Its all stream lined and the whole procedure is easily 10X faster then installing seven. W7 updates takes much longer as well. I've installed W10 on four computers and they all run faster. Boot times have improved and many under the hood improvements. Really sick of all the privacy fears as well. Unlike Apple and Google, the user can install W10 with a local account and use the advanced installer to opt out of the telemetry. Sure they don't want you to do that but its quite easy to cut off MS cloud from the system. I don't want to go back to W7 way of doing things. It a PITA. In the end, it does not perform as well as W10 so I can't see why anyone would want to put themselves through the process of installing that OS.
Plus there are many really good modern apps now with excellent functionality. One example is the iheart app. It is laid out very nicely. But most importantly, the music sounds 100 percent better when I output to my blue tooth speaker. Much better then running it through a browser. It's scales alongside X86 apps and you really don't feel the two API's colliding like before. There is still allot of garbage apps but there is enough to improve the user experience over windows seven. They open instantly and allow me access information faster then how I did things on W7. The start menu is highly customizable and will get even better in the anniversary edition. Plus many of the settings pages will soon get a dark theme.. they look really nice. Point is, W10 keeps getting better with new features coming on board. W7 barely gets security updates. They do not add any more features anymore and they never will. Moving forward there will be less X86 apps that will be coded for 7. Its heading to the direction of XP. W7 is stuck in the year 2009 feature wise. Not a good place to be moving forward. And finally I don't have to worry about a virus hitting my bios. I know if I reset a W10 machine I will kill any infection. Not always the case in W7.
People assume that W10 does not have better coding then seven. Many feel the seven year old OS is at par with W10 and that W10 has no technological advantage over seven as far has under the hood improvements. This is delusional thinking.
"People assume that W10 does not have better coding then seven. Many feel the seven year old OS is at par with W10 and that W10 has no technological advantage over seven as far has under the hood improvements. This is delusional thinking"
Delusional. My middle name. Actually in terms of the efficiency of the base coding of 10 you may well be right but there is a problem and its name is telemetry. Just think of the number of processor cycles and IRQ that the telemetry modules require and you start to see the problem in terms of supposed efficiency gains on 10. Truth is that it is stodgy. Is 7 any better, no because it's been patched to hell and back. Probably the most efficient Windows system I use is 8.1 (with telemetry updates removed obviously) and I can say this with some confidence since I run multi core recording software and the dead giveaway is the latency figures. These are spectacularly good on 8.1, rubbish on 10 and passable on 7.
"Actually in terms of the efficiency of the base coding of 10 you may well be right but there is a problem and its name is telemetry."
We got PROBLEMS! Right here in Micro-shaft city! With a capital P that rhymes with T and that stands for TELEMETRY!
Aside from THAT obvious thing, there's the 2D FLUGLY that just irritates the *BLANK* out of me. I can't even use "Ape" (8.x), not even with 'Classic Shell', it's too distractingly UGLY. Tried. Couldn't stomach it. I don't even have an "Ape" VM any more.
And Win-10-nic is much, much, worse in that regard. 'Start Thing' comes to mind...
"use the advanced installer to opt out of the telemetry."
How do you know that you're opted out? How do you know a future update won't opt you back in without telling you? How do you substitute a more restricted set of T&Cs than the standard ones? Have you ever read those carefully? If you think you have, read again and try to find any restrictions on what they can take. I would not be prepared to put anything with those T&Cs on anything other than a burner test box.
How do you know that you're opted out?
You don't know until you've tested it with a "push". I'm thinking of taking out old travel laptop (Win7) and doing the.... ahem... upgrade. Then open up browser windows for say.... the fundamentalist Christian preacher of the week, some radical Muslim site, maybe 2 or 3 porn sites of different varieties. Then watch see what ads come my way. Or maybe the FBI....
We know they do telemetry for a lot of reasons and what is been monitored never fully explained. Nor have they explained what they do with said telemetry. I'm almost curious enough to see what happens.
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After having Microsoft trying to force Win10 onto me with all of its considerable might, am I the only one that has developed an aversion for it?
I just don't want it, i know it's available, we got the message.
The constant bombardment of small windows popping up unasked for, telling you that time is running out.. i just don't want that anymore..
Can i decide when i want Win10? Please?
idunno.. am i the only one that feels this way?
Nope. I'm sticking with 8.1 Pro until 2023 and then I'll decide whether I'll stay with Windows (if Microsoft have reformed their privacy policies) or if Linux is where I'm headed.
Apart from DX12 there's no compelling reasons to switch from 8 to 10 (and in my opinion, plenty of reasons not to) so I'm going to sit this one out.
I looked at Vista, 7, 8, 10.
I've sorted other people's computers.
Win XP is the last Windows I'm using.
Ages ago we went from Win2K Advanced server -> Server 2003, then back to win2k (for the MS SUS or something), then to Debian.
Using Linux Mint + Mate desktop on main PC now, since last year.
Vista was bad, but really apart from the Win7 SP to fix it, MS has only messed up of the last 10 years. Who wants a Win2.0 flat GUI and MS Office Ribbon either?
AegisPrime: "Apart from DX12 there's no compelling reasons to switch from 8 to 10..."
No matter how often this is repeated, it remains a completely fallacious talking point. After almost a year in full release, DirectX 12 is still seeing negligible support from game developers, large or small. Performance gains are debatable (greater on AMD, apparently), and certainly not as great as you'd see by simply installing a newer graphics card.
Meanwhile, Vulkan has become a serious alternative. It offers pretty much the same benefits as DX12, but without the increasingly painful vendor lock-in of DX, and with the ability to reach a vastly larger number of devices.
We can debate the theoretical merits of DirectX 12 technology, but to cite DX12 as a compelling reason for installing Windows 10 is simply to highlight how utterly unnecessary Windows 10 really is.
"We can debate the theoretical merits of DirectX 12 technology, but to cite DX12 as a compelling reason for installing Windows 10 is simply to highlight how utterly unnecessary Windows 10 really is."
To some gamers DX12 is/will be a compelling reason to 'upgrade' to Win 10 - for me, it's the only reason I'd even contemplate it (there's zero other reasons to switch from 8.1) but even then, I decided to stick with what I have.
Vulkan may well become a serious alternative (and I hope it does - one less reason to switch) but as of right now they're both pretty much vapourware in terms of actual real-world support (Doom excepted).
"If DX12 is the only real advantage of 10 over its predecessors than for any none gamer there is no real reason to upgrade. Gamers are about the only group that could possibly benefit from using it."
And even then, only the ones using AMD GPUs, which amount to about one in four Steam users (though 17% use Intel graphics, and I've never seen a DX12 test on those). For the majority who use Nvidia, DX12 at best is on par with DX11, and at worst DX12 causes a slight performance penalty. It's been true across all of the Nvidia architectures that support DX12 to date.
I know that some people will say that it will take some time for the game devs to optimize the code for DX12 fully, and that could be accurate (at least conceptually), but even with gamers being well ahead of the curve in Win 10 adoption, they're still under half of the market share as reported by Steam, so game design will still be tied to the least common denominator. Devs won't want to go so deep into DX12 that the more radical changes in the code make DX11 run poorly. They don't want to lose half their customers over poor performance that is a result of over-optimizing for DX12.
It also seems like a possibility that the "closer to the hardware" goal of DX12 will mean that getting to a level of optimization much beyond what we have with current DX12 games will require increasingly divergent code paths for AMD and Nvidia, or even by each architecture on both sides. Allowing more optimization to be done by the driver, as with DX11, allows greater abstraction of the hardware, which frees the game developer from having to worry about such nitty-gritty stuff and undesirable things like different code paths. There's no free lunch; you can't just slap DX12 on a game like putting a bumper sticker on a car and expect it to go faster. If the optimization is not being done by the driver, it has to be done by someone else, like the game developer. While a game can certainly be hand-tuned to be faster than one that is automatically optimized, that is labor intensive, and it has to be done for each GPU architecture the game is to be run on, and redone each time there is a significant game update.
No, you're not the only one, although I have other reasons for resisting.
The data slurping (along with Microsoft's secrecy about it) is very much a concern.
The "forced updates" are also a big concern for me (and something that really puts me off).
But the biggest thing that puts me off Windows 10 has been Microsoft's awful attempts to ram it down everyone's throats using trickery, deceptive practices, and outright malware tactics.
It's a bit like meeting an excessively pushy salesman. Eventually you outright reject the product he's pushing our of sheer principle...
Imagine this; Roddy Piper = Microsoft, sunglasses = Windows 10,
Ah, Roddy Piper, RIP.
Trivia - his old family home is on the same road as mine. My wife knew his kids when they were all at school together.
Yes, I'm aware that as "claims to fame" go, that one's about on a par with "I once met a guy who claimed to know Gyles Brandreth" :)
"The constant bombardment of small windows popping up unasked for, telling you that time is running out.. i just don't want that anymore.."
Or what about stalling Windows 7 updates? I read a lot of stories from people who for some reason are no longer able to use Windows 7 updates because for some reason the updates no longer download. Something which also occasionally happens on my end, although I also think it could be DNS related.
Even so: it's yet another example of how unreliable Microsoft really is. If they're this unreliable with something you bought then do you really believe they'll let you use a freebie for ever and ever?
Maybe I'm too much into conspiracy theories, but I can't help worry that Microsoft may someday say "ok, you need a mandatory Microsoft account in order to use Windows 10". And then one year later: "Ok, you need a subscription in order to continue using your Microsoft account".
I'll stick to 7 with its own local user database, thank you :P
Wsus offline seems a good solution to the freshly fucked win7 update system. I learned this after an incredibly painful night trying to resurrect a fairly critical box.
I don't buy the DNS malarkey. Windows update has worked pretty damn well for years (the update program, not necessarily the updates themselves) and suddenly it's completely screwed everywhere at the same time that MS is installing malware on its customers^W victims computers?
I'll probably need to run 8 and 10 for testing purposes at some point. Those will be virtual and outgoing connections other than those required for the specific tests will be logged and dropped.
I read a lot of stories from people who for some reason are no longer able to use Windows 7 updates
Like me. I disabled Windows update on two of my three machines a couple of years ago after they both had their user profiles screwed. I had to restore the server from an image backup (sensibly kept well up to date). The laptop came back courtesy of System Restore which is handy because I don't bother to back that up.
Anyway the laptop has the 'Get Windows 10' icon in the system tray but I ignore it. I have Win 10 on the machine I use when working from home and that's enough. I always try to embrace different OSes ever since I switched to OS/2 and avoided Win95. But Windows 10 is just a step too far. Too much screen estate is wasted on white space I dislike how the right mouse key is being phased out.
I'm also very concerned about the possibility of MS putting adverts on my start menu. I already hate adverts and avoid them as much as possible. My start menu should be exactly that with me deciding what appears on it.
Or what about stalling Windows 7 updates? I read a lot of stories from people who for some reason are no longer able to use Windows 7 updates because for some reason the updates no longer download.
It's not that they don't download. It just that the thing might be "checking for updates" for hours. Many hours. Maybe leave your machine on for a few days for it to find updates?
"sudo apt-get update" (I work with servers over NZ cellphone data rates often while out on the road, CLI is very much the best option!) gives me immediate either lists of stuff that's working or if something is wrong, tells me what it can't see.
The same goes for the GUI update client in every Linux distro I've used for the last few years - either it tells me there's updates by a simple change of icon, or if I want to manually check clicking "check for updates" gives me immediate feedback as to whether or not it is working, and the check itself is done in less than a minute.
"Windows update" just sits there "checking for updates" for hours. Doesn't tell me if it has reached the update server or not, doesn't tell me if it is trying to check some data at either end, or is waiting for a response, or...
The only time I've ever had a Linux update take over 40 minutes is when I've been updating a system that hasn't had one in over a year (eg just installed from a year-old ISO rather than download a new one), most of that time was downloading nearly a gig of updates, and everything was updated - the OS, browsers, email client, office programs, games, tools, everything in one easy update client.
+1 for The Resistance here. I dual boot my laptop now with Linux Mint 17.3 as the general use OS, and keep the original Win7 install for running hardware/software that Linux doesn't have drivers/versions for.
I updated the Win7 install yesterday for this month's
Patch Update Tuesday and it seemed to take much less time than the several hours it had, until recently, been taking.
it seemed to take much less time than the several hours it had, until recently, been taking.
[Fires up VirtualBox, fires up VM that hasn't been used in a while]
Dang. I used this Win7 VM a couple of weeks back for some software I was checking for whether it did what is says on the box or whether it did some other stuff. Let Windows update run for several hours while I did this, and WU didn't finish in that time.
Just tried it now, less than 10 minutes. So they've finally given up slowing down Win7 updates for those of use who disable GWX et al?
Might as well let it go and see what it finds. 23 updates, 5 of them "important". While I suspect there's some nasties in there I don't see GWX or that one with all the 9's and 6's in it's number (can't remember it off hand but know it when I see it)
Thanks for alerting me to this change. It seems that despite the odds and recent history, MS can actually do something right!
[Edit] Not even 5 minutes later and it's done! Although it did say "Not needed : 23 updates" - which includes the 5 "important" updates (also including the July "malicious software removal tool" which is considerably broken since I never heard of it finding and killing GWX!). However a re-check and those same 23 are there again, and seem to be installing.
Not even 5 minutes later and it's done!
It's done now. Interestingly the machine has Skype on it, which it never had before. Wonder what Revo Uninstaller will make of that. Or the Aegis Win10 crap remover will..
Ok, rebooted and... This... https://kiwiscene.kiwi/oneoffs/7_non_sp1.png Nice big full screen add for Windows 10.
Wonder what will happen if I repeat the process in a couple of weeks time..
Makes me glad to be on the side of Light, rather than stuck in the dark ages!
Must also fire up my base install of 7 (for the first time in many years) and install SP1 I guess.
Just tried it now, less than 10 minutes. So they've finally given up slowing down Win7 updates for those of use who disable GWX et al?
Did the update to SP1, which finished 20 mins or so ago. Started Windows update.. Which is sitting there cycling on it's "Checking for...". In that time I also went and updated a BSD and a few other Linux VM's, some which haven't been fired up in ages.
"idunno.. am i the only one that feels this way?"
Nope. The Win10 forceware reminds me of the last time I bought a new vehicle. The sales guy was pushing a lease instead of a sale, which isn't right for me (I run my vehicles until the wheels fall off). While closing the deal the finance guy got REALLY pushy about how a lease was the best option for me. The more he pushed, the more certain I felt that I made the right decision.
No. Sorry to destroy your exclusivity. You are not the only one. In fact, like me, you are one among millions. For the top six reasons not to degrade to Win 10, just scan the top 100,000 posts on Win 10 in El Reg, analyse statistically, and pick you favourite six out of the top twenty.
Cynicism apart, you probably can't decide when you "want" Win 10. Microsoft will / would prefer to make that decision for you. If you stick with M$, you WILL eventually get Windows, no matter how hard you resist.
There is, of course, an alternative. Just follow the Penguin.....
"After having Microsoft trying to force Win10 onto me with all of its considerable might, am I the only one that has developed an aversion for it?"
No, you are not.
Interestingly, the majority of the pluses in the article for upgrading to W10 are features I've had for years on my FreeBSD desktop. I'm no specifically knocking Windows since I use that as well, but it's taken quite some time for MS to realise that things like multiple virtual desktops are much more useful features than smartphone/tablet like tiled desktop menus.
but it's taken quite some time for MS to realise that things like multiple virtual desktops are much more useful features than smartphone/tablet like tiled desktop menus.
Windows has actually had API support for virtual desktops since NT 4, but there’s no user interface for it. You need a tool to enable it and those have been available for time out of mind as they say.
"VirtuaWin virtual desktop manager Windows"
Yes, I have that, but it's not as well integrated as it might be. It's more like separate VMs than multiple desktops.
Actually, I think the thing I miss most when moving from a *nix desktop to a Win desktop is the simple copy'n'past, ie drag and highlight, then middle click to copy. No need to ctrl-c/ctrl-v (which also works, of course)
Actually, I think the thing I miss most when moving from a *nix desktop to a Win desktop is the simple copy'n'past, ie drag and highlight, then middle click to copy. No need to ctrl-c/ctrl-v (which also works, of course)
What I miss is the right click context menus when using a Mac, something I do rarely. Happily *nix has those useful right click context menus. I'd quite forgotten the middle button trick. Thanks for reminding me.
Did Microsoft write the article and pay for it as advertising? No way am I downgrading to 10. Loss of Media Center, No Aero. Ugly UI. Control Panel Wrecked, forced updates spyware and so on.
I'll keep 7 Ultimate 64 bit until EOL then on Mint Mate which I already run on a Toshiba laptop and dual booting on other PC's. When GP Software release Directory Opus for Linux I'll be all set.
Dopus, Midnight Commander, etc to each his own but makes me grateful my POSIX CLI kung fu handles 98% of my use cases with the rest being handled by <insert default DE FM here, Nemo, Dolphin, PCFileMan, Finder, hell even Windows Explorer (cygwin or powershell for the CLI)>. Makes moving between OSes a lot easier.
Wait till xmas, They usually offer a 50% discount. As I discovered. A week after shelling out £££ for it:"
Yes I purchased D Opus 10 then purchased a second copy with USB and FTP add on D Opus 11 upgrade 2 copies the same way. Xmas discount will probably get me D Opus 12 which is in beta right now. Opus is a true essential for large music file and photograph collections. When the developers consider and release a paid for Linux version the writing will be on the wall for Microsoft.
The negativity unjustified.
Apparently, you haven't noticed the incessant popups suggesting the upgrade, the forced upgrades for those dim-witted souls not paying attention, or the stupidity that is the split-brain Control Panel/Settings confusion.
Frankly, shame on the OP for not being nasty enough about the stupendous turd that is Windows 10.
>Windows 8 and 10 are vomit inducing interfaces.
Can't speak for Windows 8 but I have found Windows 10 interface to be about the best I have used from Microsoft. Even as a gift its a shame really then its not running the other 99% of the time my computer is on due to its total lack of respect for the user's privacy (and no I run or buy very little Google shit for the same reason), a lack of trust in the vendor and quite frankly at some point I half expect it to require a credit card number to continue to get security fixes. Steam on linux was a game changer.
I'll upgrade this weekend but only because somehow Win10 sneaky download killed my Win7 Pro install. It won't boot any more but my Windows 7 Pro disk won't recover or even wipe the disk clean and start again as detects a newer version of Windows. I've been using Ubuntu for months and if it wasn't for old games like Blade Runner I probably wouldn't bother at all. If it can't recover it, I'll have to wipe the disk and then will stick with Windows 7. It will be interesting to see how Win 10 responds to having the motherboard and cpu replaced if that is what the authentication is based on. Just waiting to see what Zen is like before I get something new.
Windows 8.1/10 changes the partitions on the drive. For me (upgrade from 8 to 8.1) it just messed up my tidy partition with the additional install/recovery partition (IIRC a new 500mb partition at the end of the windows install partition, which can mess up some setups). For others though, it forced their dual boot to stop working.
>For others though, it forced their dual boot to stop working.
A real PITA for regular users and yet more reason why they suck balls but I recommend any techie Linux user get comfortable with booting their distro of choice off a LiveCD (should keep one around for emergencies), learning the handful of mount and chroot commands and doing an update-grub or install-grub. Makes this happening go from being a disaster to being a 10 minute pain the ass. Especially since Win10 might do it again with future forced OS upgrades. Of course the other obvious solution is dump Win 10.
I recommend any techie Linux user get comfortable with booting their distro of choice off a LiveCD (should keep one around for emergencies), learning the handful of mount and chroot commands and doing an update-grub or install-grub.
I've found Boot Repair Disk makes life generally easy in such situations, and have used it to fix many Windows only machines with various boot failures as well. https://sourceforge.net/projects/boot-repair-cd/
I'll keep my W7 system for games mostly, everything else is now Linux Mint. I had a few reservations especially as some apps required Wine which I'd always thought must have some gotchas. However I now use Diptrace PCB design s/w in Mint using Wine. It's absolutely perfect. Slight UI style differences due to the Linux Window style but it's been 100% rock solid and no performance issues at all.
Microchip MPLabX has a native Linux version, perfect under Mint. Now I realise these aren't mainstream apps, but my own experience on the move from Windows to Mint has been excellent.
"I'll keep my W7 system for games mostly, everything else is now Linux Mint."
That's my thinking. Having experimented with Mint yesterday and found I can't get my most important piece of software running in it using Wine, I'll keep my laptop running Win 8 for that.
I have a "new" PC (it's actually a year old) that I've only very recently pulled out of its box and put on my desk. It's not networked yet, and I've installed no software - so I think it's a prime candidate to become a Linux Mint machine, or possibly a dual boot Linux Mint/Windows one.
That since I upgraded to Windows 10 my skin is altogether more radiant, has felt cleaner and my hair is lustrous, less oily and has more body to it. I have a new found confidence in business situations and I believe I may actually be standing a little taller as well. My aspirational target horizon has broadened and life in general has become a little easier and more chilled. I'm so glad for me.
Windows 7 came with an option called "Windows Any Time Upgrade" that would allow you to upgrade from Home Premium to Pro or Ultimate. I can't say if it was reasonably priced, as when I tried to do it, it told me MS was no longer providing those for Windows 7, and I should buy Windows 8, even though I am pretty sure it was before of the Win 7 main support window.
Even more intrusion and logging of everything you download, run, do, dont do piped to some American server for the Americans to spy on... heavens above I object to it when they need to work at it, sod giving it to them for free on a silver platter
And since when has ANY new version of windows been faster, more bug free or used friendly than the previous. Just look at the absolute abortion made of the UI on the newer office and outlook programs, these new menus DO NOT WORK, every time I want to open an excel from my email I have half a page of stupid banners I have to get rid of before I can do anything, come back the old days when I opened stuff from people I knew (mainly me) and processed it and left the porn to porn sites and caught nothing worse than a cold
As an experiment once I had a 286 at 6mhz booting to dos and then command prompt to win3, a 386 at 40mhz running windows 3.1 and a pentium something or other at heaven remembers how many gig running NT.... and getting a word document open from the hard drive happened in that order!
My current machine takes an age to stop drawing stupid pictures before it lets me log on, then I go and make tea while it huffs and puffs and draws the dozen icons on my desk top and gets its self in order so it will respond in under a day to a mouse click.
And since when has ANY new version of windows been faster, more bug free or used friendly than the previous.
I'm mostly with you Dave, but I have to point out that Windows 7 was indubitably faster, more bug free and more user-friendly than Vista.
It's called a metaphor. It's a commonly used device in English where a word or phrase is used in a context in which it's not literally true, but where the analogy is meant to convey meaning. Metaphors often exaggerate the negativity of a given situation to make a point. For example,
"The Sports Team A absolutely KILLED Sports Team B in the big game last night. They just MURDERED them."
"Your just a grammer NAZI."
"Did you see that idiot cut me off? People like that should just be SHOT."
And, of course, the example to which you responded.
Technically, your examples are examples of hyperbole, as---I hope---was the original. (There's a plain write up here.)
Nevertheless, the fact the language was meant to be read figuratively, not literally, doesn't excuse it from the charge of being over the top. We're talking about inconsequential differences between two versions of the same OS; if Windows 10 restricts my behaviour significantly more than Windows 7, then I can't detect it. It warned me about telemetry during installation; I disabled it. Settings have migrated; well, it's a new version. The "start" menu is more annoying, but most of my apps were already pinned to the taskbar. So this seems to be a cage made of bars so intangible that they can neither stop me leaving nor prevent my return. If such minuscule changes are truly an impediment to liberty then what a wonderful utopia we must inhabit.
Well, yes, that's true; my examples were more hyperbole than metaphor; good call.
But no, they are not inconsequential differences. They're huge, very consequential differences.
"if Windows 10 restricts my behaviour significantly more than Windows 7, then I can't detect it."
You're not meant to be able to-- not yet, at least. Microsoft is not going to let you detect that restriction until they have a lot better than 19% market share on 10. They need their "billion" first; they need for Windows 8 and 7 to essentially be seen as dead as XP first, so people have nowhere to run when MS decides it's time to bring the full power of the Windows 10 monopoly to bear.
The Windows family as a whole has had a monopoly for a long time, but in effect, the Windows versions competed with one another; if MS tried to use their monopoly power to force a change people hated (think of Windows 8), people would simply not use Windows 8. That did happen a few times, as with that example and Vista (and for those of us who are resisting 10 also). As long as there were always going to be more Windows versions, MS always had the incentive to try to make them into something customers wanted so they would upgrade.
So, in that context, consider the implications of forced updates and "Windows as a Service."
In the past, when you bought a version of Windows, you got pretty much what was in the box. Any big changes would be saved for the next version, and while that caused annoyance when the changes were positive (and people perceived them as something that should have been an update to the old version rather than a new feature for the next version), but it also meant that if you did not like the change, you could simply keep your old version of Windows, as people did in the above examples.
With "Software as a Service," though, we're told 10 will be the last version of Windows, and that all changes will be pushed out as updates rather than as new products, and we'll get the features as soon as they are ready. Even if the features harm the users, they're getting them whenever MS finds those features "ready."
No more do changes come as individual packages that can be individually selected or rejected (as I did with all of the Win 7 telemetry updates, the upgrade compatibility updates, the GWX updates, etc.). Each Win 10 update is a big monolithic blob, where all of the security and bugfix updates are rolled up with whatever else MS felt like doing with Windows 10 that month. Want the critical updates for that month? If so, you're getting everything, not just those. If you find a way to block the offending update (they're not optional now), you have to forego all updates (including security fixes) from that point forward unless you give in and are willing to take the change you don't want.
This is a large power shift from the user of the PC to Microsoft. It goes deeper, though.
Windows 10 is the OS that decides to uninstall programs it doesn't like each time a forced update comes along. Multiple users have reported that it unceremoniously uninstalls Piriform's Speccy program each time it updates, leaving its users to have to reinstall it once again. Not hard to do, but why does Windows 10 think it has the authority to do that in the first place? What else will it choose to uninstall going forward? (Answer: Anything Microsoft wants it to.) It may not have uninstalled anything of yours, but that does not mean it won't. The precedent is already there; Windows 10 does, in fact, uninstall things whenever it wants to.
"It warned me about telemetry during installation; I disabled it."
You think you disabled it. Have you checked a packet log to make sure? You can only turn off some of it, not all, unless you have the Enterprise edition and the sysadmin sets the group policy to disallow all telemetry. It's not possible to turn it all off otherwise. Microsoft will give all kinds of excuses about why they need the data to improve Windows and how it's really anonymous and harmless and no one should be upset about it, but that misses the point. It's my computer; I didn't ask for excuses why a certain unwanted "feature" is really okay. I asked for (demanded, really) that feature to be disabled, Microsoft's reasoning be damned. Whose needs does this operating system serve anyway? Mine or Microsoft's?
It is clear by now that Windows 10 is not meant to empower the user. It's meant to empower Microsoft, and to make them the master of everyone's PC. If you need that PC and the programs that run on it and the data that reside on it, you have to do what Microsoft says. If they say you have to pay a subscription fee, you have to pay it. If they say you can't run a certain program, you can't run it. When they have all of the power and you have all of the risk (your computer becomes useless; your data inaccessible) if you don't obey, I would say that "slavery" is not an unjustified bit of hyperbolic metaphor.
I've mentioned hypothetical things MS could do that harm users but benefit MS itself in previous messages. With their push for the UWP and the Windows Store, they could one day begin to phase out Win32. It probably would not be all at once; there'd be a series of gradual changes that made it more and more of a pain to use, and more and more of a pain for devs to use to make programs. Eventually, the time would come to terminate Win32 support completely-- for our security, of course. This would force everyone into the Windows store where MS just happens to get a hefty commission on every sale.
"Oh noo, they would never do something like that," say the MS shills. "That would be suicidal! People want to run their Win32 stuff; they would not tolerate it."
Well, if MS owns the market and everyone is on Windows 10, how exactly could people refuse to accept it? MS owns their PCs! They can't refuse the update that renders their Win32 software useless, as it is a forced update, and all of the same caveats apply as I mentioned above. They'd have to forego all Windows updates from the bad one forward, with all of their bug fixes, security fixes, and other changes they DO want. It's not a valid option.
Windows 10 is the only Windows where that has been possible. MS has already demonstrated that the depths to which they will sink are limitless. Why would anyone give them blanket approval for all future changes, in advance, forever? That's what Windows 10 requires, implicitly and explicitly.
You could give a loaded handgun to a chimp, and for a while, you'd be able to say that if there was any bad effect of doing that, you haven't detected it. It doesn't mean it was a good idea, and that eventually the bad effect will be too obvious to miss.
I'm all for progress - looking forward to the Xeon-FPGA hybrids and the new applications and programming paradigms that will come with them.
But an incombent vendor milking their installed base... like the big 3 US car makers did in the 1960s with annual styling changes on the same low-tech ladder chassis - no thanks.
I can't get the damn think to install. It barfs with a 'don't have sufficient permissions" error. Nothing tried fixes that. Tried from a CD image and that won't work either. Got to the first reboot and then whined about an incompatibility between a w7 recovery and w10 recovery. The upgrade just won't work, and what is worse fails and redownloads 3gb of update every 12 hrs. I've had to stop all win updates happening 'cos its almost run out my download caps. And I don't think even that stops it from downloading the the update.
Looks like I'm going to have to spend the weekend install the damn thing on a reformatted drive.
Utterly pathetic losers who can't take a dose of truth. Stick with your crusty old last-decade OS's. If you work in IT you're just making yourself outdated.
I have quite a few machines that run more than decade old OS (say AOS or MPE V just for couple examples) and work just fine.
Your point is?
If you work in IT you're just making yourself outdated.
I've worked for a few Global 500 companies in the last couple of years and they only just finished upgrades to Win 7 last year and are NOT about to upgrade again for a few more years.
Say around, oh, 2020.
But thanks for the advice.
"If you work in IT you're just making yourself outdated."
If you work in IT you become very cynical about upgrades. You become very cynical indeed when people try such extreme tactics to force upgrades onto you systems. And, if you've got your wits about you, you read the T&Cs very, very carefully. Just go and read those. If you can't grasp the problem you should take up a job that doesn't require reading skills. Note that I avoided saying "if you can't see the problem" because the problem lies in what's omitted.
If you work in IT you become very cynical about upgrades.
Indeed. Which is why, even in retirement, we install them on a machine that isn't essential to what we use computers for. Even though the testbed for Win10 was my main desktop machine, my Zenbook was prepped for a holiday we were about to take nearly a year ago. Win10 generated repeated messages about a "graphics problem". Searching for the MS HCL drew a blank. How the fuck do you decide what video adapter to purchase as a replacement when there's no HCL?
That's when I installed Mint on three out of the four computers in regular use in the Git household. Mrs Git still prefers Win 7, but MS haven't attempted to fuck with that install maybe because it's on a Macbook that dual boots OS X.
I no longer trust Microsoft. Full stop.
W7 until 2020 for one custom application - and by then Linux Mint should be my standard.
If they had made a revised business model that had no spyware and no forced upgrades - then I would have considered a subscription for software security and bug fixes. As long as I could stop that subscription without losing access to what I had already.
SaaS in Microsoft's hands is like a Sword of Damocles.
"So all those who claim to have not been able to run Win 3.x with DR DOS were running the beta."
Not necessarily. It is quite likely that a good number of problems got attributed to DR-DOS or AARD which were actually caused by other issues - finicky hardware, disk caching quirks, memory management quirks, etc. If reinstall with MS-DOS makes the problem go away, then it's easy to reach the conclusion that MS-DOS works better with Windows - even if it was down to something else.
"So all those who claim to have not been able to run Win 3.x with DR DOS were running the beta."
And DR-DOS had worked around it by then. But that they attempted it at all was indicative of Microsoft's attitude. Then there was the way they shafted Lotus, Wordperfect and Ashton Tate so that MS Office became the pre-eminent office suite. And then there was that contretemps with Netscape. I can't vouch for what they did with Win16, since I went straight from DOS to Win32, but Ralph Brown's interrupt list was a godsend in the DOS days.
And DR-DOS had worked around it by then.
Remarkably prescient considering that Windows 286/386 were the current versions when I purchased DR DOS, because MS refused to sell its DOS (3.x) at retail. Dunno about Lotus or Word Perfect. I was running Quattro Pro and Sprint. I do remember lots of complaints from Lotus customers because there was a limit on the number of times you could install 123 and you had to keep the floppy in the disk drive so you needed a two floppy machine to run it.
"So you're to young for all the shit they were doing in the 90s? Like ensuring Windows borked DR-DOS and secret APIs etc..."
ah, yes. the 'secret API's. I scanned their DLLs for things that weren't documented, because I'd heard about it, and saw "GlobalHandleNoRIP" which became EXTREMELY useful in a buggy environment, to validate global handles before you attempt to lock them. Kept those pre-blue-screen 'Unhandled Exception' dialog boxes from interrupting my application. And the reasons FOR that sort of thing were *rarely* due to MY code...
(later, a lawsuit forced Micro-shaft to DOCUMENT things like that, because MS Word used these things internally for the SAME reasons *I* did - stability! 'Unfair advantage' was the justification, and so Micro-shaft had to document them for EVERYBODY)
"So you're to young for all the shit they were doing in the 90s? "
On the contrary Windows 2 arrived in my mid-career - along with many other PC OS variants. However in those days I was paid to deliver customer solutions with whatever was ordained as the flavour of the day.
Now I'm retired the only criterion is whether I want to put up with Microsoft's predatory behaviour after W7. The retro spyware and nagware were the final straw.
Mint 17.3 and now Mint 18 offers LTS an easy way to upgrade and what i do with my computer stays in my computer. Win 10 is a brilliant coup to force spyware and remote control to the now police state called the USA .I'm not in the USA and no matter the candy offered will never relinquish my control over my PC to a foreign hostile power. Have you already forgotten the Snowden papers ? The hundreds of leaked documents and irrefutable proofs given that the US is a hostile foreign power that spies on everyone ? Before accepting to relinquish command and control of your PC to a foreign power . think twice. This is the most vicious intelligence coup of the century. There's no free lunch, what's at stake is your freedom and privacy .. but please go on .. take the candy .. it's poison .. but for a few minutes will taste good.
I think you mean: “with new features arriving long before they are finished, and you have to live with them whether you wanted them or not.”
..and other features being removed at the capricious whim of Microsoft, via forced updates.
See: Media Center, OneDrive placeholders, Messaging Everywhere, App-V/UE-V on Pro/Home editions, etc, etc.
In what world is it acceptable for a vendor to remove features from a product, post-purchase?
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'The supported lifetime of the device'
Well, no point in bothering then. The server motherboard on my main system went End of Life in 2012, and that's running a 2008 processor (EOL again), and a 2010 GPU (which does have at least have Windows 10 drivers).
At least I know with Windows 8 it'll carry on working, but if W10 is a moving target there's no such guarantee.
I think the shift in Microsoft's Windows sales model was less about the loss of PC sales and more about them saying "Never again."
In the good old days, people upgraded Windows when they were told to. Windows 95 was a buggy mess that crashed if you looked at it funny; three years later, the code had been worked into a semi-stable state. Microsoft then sold the debugged code as a completely separate product, and people just TOOK IT. What an idea! Charge them for the first version, but make it so buggy it drives them to distraction, and then a few years later, call the fixed product something new and sell it to them again!
That set in motion the MS cycle of rapid release of new Windows versions that all had to be purchased again. In the home user/small business space, there were 98 SE, Windows ME, and then XP after 98 and 95. Vista stalled in development and took longer than expected, and when it finally arrived, people had learned to say no. While in every pre-XP version they'd been anxiously buying every new Windows version to come down the pike in the hope of getting something that would keep running, they now had that in XP, and none of the Vista bells and whistles overcame its negatives to the happy XP customers.
One time is a fluke, though. MS again pulled a 98 and released a bugfixed version of the previous Windows as a new product with 7, which was successful. Win 8 was meant to follow in that model, only now with an emphasis on mobile stuff to try to get their fledgling Windows Store some apps to sell, but it too was rejected by the desktop market.
Twice is a pattern. The users' refusal to migrate to 8 in large numbers ruined Microsoft's plan to stock the app store by using sales of apps to desktop users as a carrot. That would only work if the number of Win 8 users was large, probably in excess of Windows 7 users, and it never got there.
'Never again," they must have said. "When given a choice, Windows users have developed an annoying habit of rejecting versions of Windows that serve our corporate agenda instead of their own," said the Microsoft suit. "We cannot allow the end user to stand in the way of our plans just because our products don't meet their needs," he said with a sneer as he raised both of his hands to make air-quotes.
So now we have Windows as a Service, where all changes that would previously have been held for the next Windows version will be pushed out to users whenever
it's ready Microsoft damned well pleases, and there will be no rejecting it: the updates are mandatory, and they're not available as a la carte options anymore, but are instead single packages that contain all of the updates, big and small, security and otherwise, since the last update-- you can't get the security ones without whatever else they decide to put in there, and if you do manage to block a particularly bad one against MS' wishes, you can't get any more bug fixes or security updates until you give in and take it all.
We're getting to see first hand how committed to the "use the PC users as a carrot for Windows Mobile app devs" strategy Microsoft really is. Even though it had been thoroughly repudiated by the market, it was too important to MS to give up-- so much so that they were willing to try again and resort to extraordinary measures to get people over that ONE last hump and into the enwrapping arms of Windows 10, the last time they would ever need to be persuaded to do anything. After that, it's about where Microsoft wants you to go today, and the day after, and the day after; you won't even be asked, because your concerns no longer matter. At all.
Well I have tried it & abused it right from the first preview build, there is nothing here in build 14393 to compel me to upgrade from Windows 7, whilst M$ engineers are to be mildly congratulated for managing to implement a start menu and floating App windows (although not as competently as the 3rd party developers have done in Windows 8) and for the addition of extra desktops (which were always possible in Windows 7 if you knew how ). I find it jarringly unsuitable for desktop work.
I should probably congratulate the M$ Marketing Department for creating a new way to extract more money from people by re-naming what is basically Windows 8.2 to Windows 10 - couldn't get the XP Users to buy Win 8 - Don't want Win 7 to become the new XP so lets give it away to a Win 7 Home and Premium users.
I see Shades of the old XP - Longhorn (circa 2004) debate where the following story ran :-
"Microsoft has slammed its XP operating system admitting to hardware developers in Seattle that the company has failed to deliver by not "thinking through end-to-end scenarios.""
"The software giant's apparent gaffe appears to be a reverse strategy to switch the spotlight onto new capabilities available only through its Longhorn OS, due for release late next year."
A microsoft spokesman said :-
"We put things together not really thinking through the end-to-end scenarios and this is why at times we have failed to deliver."
"The next decade will bring about a new wave of innovation in the technology industry through the increased security, greater reliability and faster performance enabled by 64-bit computing and continued advances in Windows," Gates said.
"'Longhorn' and the new x64-bit versions of Windows are the best foundation for a new generation of faster, more powerful hardware and software that expands the possibilities for computing and transforms the way we work and play."
M$ then unveiled it's next generation blueprint for the modern-day PC, saying it's goal was to get the ubiquitous device "much closer to the utility of a mobile phone." In light of this and ever mindful of gains made by Apple's compact PCs, M$ said it's hardware vision for the future was to develop the "ultraportable" PC that would end perceptions of computers as large, inert machines that need to sit on a desk.Instead the company said the smaller breed of computer will hit the mainstream in 2008, and concentrate on providing the consumer with an instantly usable, always connected, 7-inch wide screen PC.
I think if you substitute Windows 8 for XP and Windows 10 for Longhorn in the above - M$ might get away with using that speech again. Albeit 7 years past the target date of 2008.
Most normal consumers (not Techies), I talk to who have actually purchased a new PC (with Win10 installed) comment that "It's all right I suppose, but the Photo/Music/ Video/Mail/Browser Apps are terrible, I prefer my Android/iPad apps they are easier to use" - makes you wonder if they regret the purchase, they normally don't admit it, saying they needed it to run MSOffice or other obscure program and their Scanner / Printer. These are the normal consumers who wouldn't normally use shareware / programs downloaded off the Interwebs
What's trending in the Insider Feedback Hub - "Please make a Pokemon Go App" - Give me strength , no wonder M$ never listen to feedback
So the features i should upgrade for are a better file copy status windows... not really that bothered.
Quick edit mode in the terminal, which 7 has and can be enabled with a few clicks, oh wait it supports line breaks... not really that bothered for the few times it would be useful.
Bash is coming... oh wait i can install cygwin and have it under 7 already.
DirectX12, which virtually nothing currently supports and none of the few titles i still use even support dx12
Remind me again, why would any one gamble with a 10 upgrade, when you may get hardware compatibility issues, software compatibility issues that will mean you will need to run an vm to get around the issue, or worse find that your OS is pushing you lots off adverts in the not so distant future that you have to pay to get rid of, or alternatively some of the features you used to enjoy and now gone unless you pay the yearly tax.
Microsoft is doing more to drive people to linux on the desktop than ever before... 2020 might see windows 7 support end, but im pretty sure between now and then at lot of users are going to transition over to a linux kernel than suffer microshafts data slurping and likely pay to play/use vision of the future. For more simple users remix os has come a long way.
Define "supported", and supported by whom??
A cynic might suggest that this means "when the warranty runs out on your device, you have to start paying for updates"
Which means for a lot of people "upgrading" to Win10 on older equipment/cheap tablets, might be in for a shock in the near future.
What this typically means from my understanding, is the moment you get a bad sector (if using a hdd and if its a seagate it maybe sooner than later from what ive seen) and clone it off to a new drive as a precaution to avoid losing all your data, you boned your licence is no longer valid.
If you installed and then a few days/months/years down the line you saw someone selling a slightly bigger chip second hand at a fantastic cost that would give you x more cores and more performance you boned you no longer have a valid licence.
And when your motherboard goes pop because your psu decided to spike it with x voltage as it went through what ever death throws and replace it and your also boned.
As the hardware fingerprint is a combination of cpu/mb/drive serial, but its ok microshaft will sell you a nice new licence.
Or you could just continue to use 7 until 2020 and reactivate or install a Linux and realise quickly that you drank the microshaft coolaid for tooooo long.
"Or you could just continue to use 7 until 2020 and reactivate [...]"
In my experience W7 OEM installs often won't allow a move to a new motherboard. Even W7 Retail sometimes decides it won't reactivate after a phased upgrade of multiple components. The latter seems to be a mechanism that allows only one hardware component to be upgraded every three months.
"What this typically means from my understanding, is the moment you get a bad sector (if using a hdd and if its a seagate it maybe sooner than later from what ive seen) and clone it off to a new drive as a precaution to avoid losing all your data, you boned your licence is no longer valid.
As the hardware fingerprint is a combination of cpu/mb/drive serial, but its ok microshaft will sell you a nice new licence."
Well thats largely nonsense, as I've found out due to a recent spate of bad luck with HDDs.
I have a Asus Transformer TP300L, with Windows 8.1, that is just under a year old and the HDD decided it was going to throw a bit of a wobbler. Couldn't use the warranty as I was heading to Monaco to work in two days so threw caution to the wind and swapped out the 500gb drive for a 1tb drive (which I was going to do when the warranty expired anyway). Fortunately the old HDD stayed up long enough to make a recovery drive and Windows (8.1) didn't even raise an eyebrow when it found itself living on a new HDD. Incidentally I've just upgraded this machine to Win10 and it works better than it ever has with 8, both as a normal laptop and when using the touch-screen (Win10 detects touch and makes some desktop UI elements more finger friendly). It even cured an annoying and (very) random audio glitch that it had under 8.1.
Then, while out in Monaco, I had to fly back to the UK for a couple of days and, needing a small powerful machine with a proper graphics chip, not just crappy Intel integrated graphics, I treated myself to an MSI GS40 Phantom. Just one month after buying the machine the HDD decided to catastrophically relieve itself of its duties. Unprepared to be without the machine for a month, to do what is essentially a five minute job, warranty stickers got broken (which isn't too bad as apparently MSI are pretty cool about machines being opened up to replace/upgrade memory/drives... as long as nothing else has obviously been touched. The warranty stickers are largely there to deter the clueless. Anyway, I digress). So I replaced the drive, booted into Windows (it fortunately lives on a PCI-e SSD) and it could not have cared any less that it had a new drive thrust upon it.
So yeah, Windows using drive serials as a metric for hardware signatures seems to be complete nonsense.
I dont think you understand very well how the oem and slic works on most machines, the discussion was about all those people who upgrade to 10 and then didnt get a licence code to be able to re-install 10. Change a non slic based install on vista, 7 or 8 and if you had slic it was possible to re-activate, assuming the motherboard didnt die or you swapped like for like on the motherboard. Or if you had a oem cert key you could reactivate using that. Yes sometimes online activation would complain, but phone activation was always a good fall back. This wont be the case once you upgrade to 10, your slic will be for the wrong os and/or so will your oem cert.. So life of the machine means until one of the 3 major components go bad in the cases of magnetic drives its the most likely to fail first statistically. FYI your manufacture pre installed windows 8.1 will be using a slic activation method which is why a clone didn't matter.
People have to realise that the new "free" Windows 10 will not be transferable to new hardware. This is one area where MS will tighten up requirements to the point of making it impossible to carry a Windows license forward when you do any substantial hardware upgrades.
Do face reality folks: MS is smarter than you are, and they don't give a flying f**k about your "rights". You don't have "rights", OK?
"Strangely enough I get a Unix like experience on my Linux boxen, and the OS still free after the point Win 10 becomes non free"
Windows 10 was never 'free' - you pay with your privacy and future enslavement to whatever forced updates are coming down the pike.
but yeah, you could run Linux or one of the BSDs and get a TRUE "UNIX-like" experience, or run Cygwin and get something similar on _ANY_ version of windows, or use Micro-shaft's 'Embrace, Extend, Extinguish' version and get something FAKE that has "issues".
Strangely enough I get a Unix like experience on my Linux boxen, and the OS still free after the point Win 10 becomes non free
That's.. that's just CRAZY TALK! FREE?! Are you some kinda dang person who likes things to just work and not cost much?
You sir, are NO tech! No sir. No tech at all! Complexity, arcanity and stratospheric costs are the most noble of goals! How dare you?! You are a danger to the entire profession!
Last year I bought a cheap tablet with Win8.1 and a year of Offce 365 on it. I upgraded to Win10 and I don't like it, can't find anything, the colour schemes are horrible, I'm totally lost in a maze of full screen apps and a tiled home screen which keeps changing and distracting me.
I can't deduce any sort of design logic on where to find anything or customise it. Without dozens of google searches.
I go back to my 4yo Win7 notebook and all is peaceful and welcoming. Everything is where I left it customisation is easy.
I go and fire up my Raspberry-Pi and I can fairly easily find my way around that and get a few things done.
I don't know or care too much about the data slurping, with Gmail,Amazon, and livedrive accounts I suspect I'm fully slurped already.
Win10? Just say NO kids
A simple example is the new UWP calculator; it may be prettier than the old accessory, but it is slower to launch, takes more screen space without advantage, and has focus issues so that if you launch it from the keyboard and type some numbers, half the time the input does not work until you click on the app.
This is a CALCULATOR program? And MS Windows 10 cannot get it right? Fer crissakes, already! With progress and competency like that, I'd expect the MicroSoft Limo to sport a spark advance lever on the steering column and a hand-crank starter on next year's model! With a unicycle for a spare tire!
I've had it on my PC and laptop since it first came out and am very pleased with it. Was dubious and installing it on my niece's netbook but after doing it wish I had done it when it first came out. Its like its a different machine compared to it running windows 8.1. Definetly if you have windows 8 or 8.1 upgrade. For windows 7 support will eventually stop and you'll have to pay for an upgrade is that what you really want?
For windows 7 support will eventually stop and you'll have to pay for an upgrade is that what you really want?
Win7 support runs out in about 4 years time. This machine is already a few years old and has taken some case damage. And the fan no longer works (gee an HP laptop with cooling system problems, never though I'd see that day... </sarc>) so I have to reply on an external fan (not the fan itself, the fan control circuitry doesn't kick in for a long time even with "fan always on" set in the BIOS). Strangely the fan issue started just after some Windows updates and uninstalling those updates initially seemed to fix it, but that may just have been coincidental.
Anyway.. Maybe 50/50 on whether or not this machine will be running at the end of the year. Chances of it surviving till 2020? Pretty low. Chances of me getting something better by then? Pretty high. Chances of that something better running 10? Absolute zero. It'll take a Debia-based install (Deb pure or Mint or maybe Devuan or some other sysD free distro)) and either a Win7 or no Windows at all.
No matter what, I won't be paying for Win10. No "have to" about it.
I have a laptop that's running Windows 7, and I've been wondering what to do. I don't especially like Windows, but it's occasionally a nuisance not to have a copy. Here's my plan:
Boot off a Linux USB and take an image backup of the Windows 7 disk.
Upgrade to Windows 10.
Take another backup of the disk.
Create VMs of Windows 7 and 10.
"They will be missing out on seven years of Microsoft's efforts to improve security and performance, but the extra risk is hard to quantify."
I was reminded just yesterday how much I loathe the MS attitude.
"We have to update with fixes, choose a convenient time." Mmm, kay, I'm real busy so how about 2 days from now. "We tried to install fixes, but the update didn't work. Reschedule?" ?!?!, kay, but I'm still real busy, so how about... WHY are the date and time controls grayed out? I can't pick when? You're going to reboot in an hour no matter what the owner of the PC wants?
It's the attitude, people. Microsoft has _earned_ the undying hatred of millions. And they just don't understand why. Think about that last part. They have lost that there is a relationship between customer and vendor. I didn't leave them, they left me.
Ever worked in a large corporation? (rhetorical question, I'm sure you have)
Marketing people are the most goddamned arrogant, self important assholes you will ever meet. They make pro athletes look civilized.
Second rule of running a business is to never let your marketing department have any control. The first rule is to never let your accountants run your business either.
The way this article failed to mention the inability for most users to decide for themselves when to apply Win10 updates, failed to mention the egregiously heavy-handed snooping Win10 does before phoning home with vast amounts of information M$ have no business to be taking from your PC .. and the fact that they have the abiltiy to download YOUR FILES if some junior tech. decided he needs them to pursue an alleged 'issue' .. makes me wonder just how critical the writer is, or for that matter, what relationship he has with M$.
Reading this fair and reasonable review of Win10 without any mention of the amount of data it slurps (perhaps illegally) I wondered "am I reading the same El Reg that also reports the security issues."
At the top of the article is reproduced the Microsoft screen that declares "It's the most secure Windows ever..." without doing anything to challenge or qualify that, and yet the other El Reg article declares "Microsoft ordered to fix 'excessively intrusive, insecure' Windows 10"
I am sure that the improvements in the Command Line will be hugely popular. The rest I am not so sure about.
You may think that this article is a fanboy puff piece. I couldn't possible comment.
"As long as that lets me use Office (2007 or 2010) then I don't do anything that needs Windows."
have you considered 'Open Office' or 'Libre Office' ? I have yet NOT seen anything (other than old MS Access stuff I used to do a decade-and-a-half ago) that requires a Microsoft product like 'Office'...
I had Office '97 which worked ok until I had an XP box with >1G RAM, and then a bug kept it from printing. Trying *FIX* that bug broke other things. Dumped Office '97 for Open and/or Libre Office suites, which matched what I was already doing on FreeBSD and Linux. All of my template-based documents (like address labels, envelope addressing) worked perfectly. Never looked back.
"have you considered 'Open Office' or 'Libre Office' ? I have yet NOT seen anything (other than old MS Access stuff I used to do a decade-and-a-half ago) that requires a Microsoft product like 'Office'..."
As a Mint 18 user I run Libre Office and WPS Office, which has a better interface than Libre Office IMHO.
These both work fine as long as you have the MS fonts installed.
( sudo apt-get install ttf-mscorefonts-installer )
I also run Office 2010 via PlayOnLinux.
Print quality is good with Office and Libre but not quite as good with WPS on my system. I haven't tried Open office for some time.
As much as I like foaming at the mouth about MS, someone had to offer a sensible opinion.
I run Mint with Vista in Virtualbox for those times when Windows is needed, but GF bought a brand new HP laptop and immediately let it upgrade to Win 10.
In practical terms, for her, a skilled but average user, there is little difference between Win 10 and her old XP system.
Word is Word, email is email, Chrome is Chrome. Once we got the Start menu back to "Normal" she was happy.
Still, like every MS OS upgrade, it does tend to crash more or less daily. I assume that will diminish in due course.
Being an ordinary user, everything is set to autoupdate, and she isn't the least bit worried about MS phoning home.
You see, average users just want stuff to work, preferably the way they did last week.
"Still, like every MS OS upgrade, it does tend to crash more or less daily."
Something wrong there, matey. If you're referring to the OS then I can only recall perhaps half-a-dozen BSODs on NT-family Windows in the last 25 years, and those were all due to physically failing hardware or dodgy drivers (usually ones produced by graphics vendors who had a choice between benchmarks and correctness).
If you are talking about apps, I've seen rather more, but that's equally true of apps on Linux. (Case in point, I'm currently typing this on a Linux box where both Firefox and Thunderbird crash on startup, but have dependencies on other libraries that mean I can't easily roll back.)
f you're referring to the OS then I can only recall perhaps half-a-dozen BSODs on NT-family Windows in the last 25 years, and those were all due to physically failing hardware or dodgy drivers (usually ones produced by graphics vendors who had a choice between benchmarks and correctness).
Pretty much my experience, except...
I had a core solo Toshiba laptop that would immediately BSOD (and only BSOD) after XP SP3 was installed. It ran Win7 reliably for several years and was sold on to a friend. When Win7 started behaving badly a few months ago, I upgraded it to Mint 17.3. Runs like a charm. So I suspect it was something to do with SP3, rather than a hardware issue.
Gee, I'm a real user, too. Fact is, I'm also a developer. And I'm fluent with multiple OSes, blah blah bloody well blah.
A couple of years ago I bought a new laptop with Windows 8.1. Great hardware, frustrating OS. It made me use Linux as my main box. Then the "upgrade" came along. At that time, I had quite a bit on the laptop, so I chose the "upgrade" option. And the GUI randomly locked up! So I finally realized what a problem it was, backed stuff up, and did a full reset on the machine to its factory install. Upgrade. GUI lockup with the newest incarnation of the BSOD. Then I reset the machine again, killed off all of the factory crapware, and tried the upgrade again. BSOD. Then I tried a full reinstall from a USB stick. What does Windows 10 immediately want? A driver for something. Unknown, unnamed, God almighty only knows what, and it won't continue until it gets its driver. So then I burned a DVD and installed from that. But of course I had to remove ALL of the partitions first, because Windows can't handle its own 64-bit GPT partitions.
And now it's operating, but I haven't yet installed my applications and really begun to use it.
Honestly, I've never experienced anything like that with any *nix OS. Ever. Only Windows. If Windows 10 GUI locks up on me, even with a completely clean install, I'm loading Linux on it and taking back my machine.
"You see, average users just want stuff to work, preferably the way they did last week."
Yes, and nothing we can do will protect those people from themselves.
When they install something, they see the UAC prompt, and quickly learn that "allow" is the "just work" button, rendering it completely useless. The "just make it work" attitude overcomes security, good sense, and just about everything else. It's short-sighted, but undeniably the dominant attitude among non-techie types.
Windows 10 is a trap. The average user is happy to walk right into it, since everything "just works" for now... and it will keep doing so, until such time as MS decides it is profitable for them for it to NOT "just work." By then, it will be too late for the average user to do anything about it.
Reasons to upgrade:
-Continued life for old hardware for the indefinite future.
-Access to the Windows Store.
-Edge browser, if that's your thing.
-Windows 7 updates get slower/stall every month. 10 works ok for now.
Reasons NOT to upgrade:
-Windows 7 was the most aesthetically pleasing version ever. Welcome back to uglyville.
-2GB ram minimum (raised from one - surprise! - Netbooks and 1GB tablets should spurn)
-Privacy issues. Lots of privacy issues. Wow, the privacy issues.
-OpenSSH is not integrated yet. We would really like that now.
-BASH is not as good of a fit as the Midnight Korn shell (used in Android).
-BASH is also not integrated yet.
-The Windows store is not well-organized.
-You're KEEPING Candy Crush, end of story!
Continued life for old hardware for the indefinite future.
Did you mean "Hoping for continued life for old hardware" but actuality you are getting "Godot Driver Updates" while the resource hogging kills your shit hardware dead in the very definite future (like, the next 2 months or so).
Access to the Windows Store
Access to crudville: GRANTED!
Edge browser, if that's your thing.
Edgy browser, the same security sieve as the old bullshit code hairball.
Windows 7 updates get slower/stall every month. 10 works ok for now.
Become a valued member of liberal victim culture: Giving in to sabotage with a forcegrade mugging from your vendor is actually a plus when you reflect deeply about it! You are the MSF hospital being visited by the AC-130 Gunship of Peace and Understanding! Please leave a bleeding-heart comment expressing your liberal support at Thinkprogress.org!
This is the only advantage which I honestly believe is a real one: Using Windows 10 also gets you access to a free copy of Minecraft, the Windows 10 version. Granted: it's not as extensive as the normal one which you buy from Mojang, but it may give you a free and nearly complete insight look into the world of Minecraft.
Warning: heavy bias follows.
And Minecraft is an amazing game. It's not for everyone, obviously, but I do wish to implore some people to look beyond the initial (and maybe uninviting) blockery landscape and to just try and discover the world a bit. Minecraft may look very simplistic on the outside, but on the inside it could easily be much more complex than you may give it credit for. Its much more than merely a game where you place colored blocks on top of each other to mimic real world imagery (even though it can easily be used for that!).
For me personally Minecraft is the combination of things. An adventure game: when mining resources (such as coal, iron, diamond and maybe redstone and lapis) you'll no doubt come across dark caves. Even though they're automatically generated (and eventually you may discover some vague patterns) they never stop to amuse me. Because what could be lurking within? You'll no doubt come across hostile monsters (mobs), and to prevent them from spawning in you need to light the place up. Challenge #1: make sure to keep enough torches. But it's not merely caves, you can also come across abandoned mineshafts (its just what it says) which includes occasional minecarts which have chests in them with extra spoils to collect. Or strongholds, which not only contain a mysterious portal which - when repaired - teleports you to another dimension but also other interesting things like libraries (with the cobwebs and bookcases, all you'd expect in an ancient unused library).
What to do with all those spoils? It's up to you really. You can make tools from wood, but it pays off to get better materials such as stone, iron, gold and best of all: diamond. The latter also allow you to make armor, which helps to protect yourself from any hostile mobs. But lets start simple: stone. You can process your stone. When mining stone you'll end up with cobble stone, but cook it and you can get the regular stone block back. Of course you'll need more: you need to build yourself a furnace first (using cobblestone) and it needs to be fueled too (using wood, charcoal, coal or more exotic things like a lava bucket or a blaze rod). Speaking of wood: you'll need lots of that too. For starters to make a crafting table which allows you to make more complex items (such as the previously mentioned furnace). There's plenty of wood to be found in Minecraft: Oak, Birch, Acacia trees which all have their unique looks right down to the huge ones like Jungle, Dark Oak and the Spruce trees. Challenge #2: when chopping wood you'll come across saplings. Collect them and use those to make a tree farm: your own endless wood source.
So about that stone: cobblestone can be used to craft stair blocks and wall blocks. Cook it (see above) and you get the (regular) stone block back. Stone can be used to craft stone bricks; this is basically stone with a brick "pattern" on it (looks awesome on walls and floors). And these can also be crafted into stairs to add to the diversity.
Not enough for you? Use 3 stone bricks and make stone brick slabs (a slab is basically half a regular block). Now combine 2 slabs together and you get chiseled stone bricks: a stone block with a square pattern on it.
Sounds complicated already? I've only scratched the surface here. You can also make those stairs and slabs from wood, sandstone (can be crafted from sand), nether bricks, etc. Speaking of sand: collect that, cook it and you got glass.
And this was only about crafting building blocks. When we're talking redstone you're looking at a setup where you can even build your own computers. Think I'm joking? here is a youtube video which demonstrates a 1kb memory module in Minecraft. I'll leave you to look up minecraft computers on either Google or Youtube :)
SO yeah, it's not all bad :P Though I'll be the first to admit that as awesome as I think Minecraft is it should not be a motivation to upgrade to Win10.
Important things that the article said:
1. "For the lifetime of the device". What does that mean?
2. No mention is made of the fact that unless you have Enterprise, you no longer have control of your computer. Updates are forced. You cannot disable them. Telemetry spews all sorts of data, and cannot be disabled.
3. Microsoft has the ability to go into your machine at any time, to extract any data that they want, without so much as a notification.
4. This is just how things are *now*. Since they're making Windows "Software as a Service", they can change their TOS at their convenience, and you have no choice but to bend over and like it.
I will *never* use Windows 10, (unless I have no other choice).
Should I upgrade to Windows 10?
On a side note the update to windows 10 that I hid at least 4 times reappeared the other morning.
Windows 10 is like when your at the vicars for tea and accidentally trouser cough a particularly choice air biscuit that even when you've opened all the windows the fucker just won't go away.
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amazing.. it seems as if trustworthy old Microsoft actually want people to *pay* for being spied on, as if their toy-OS wasn't bad enough already, what's even sadder though, is that millions will. I already dislike the trend across all modern operating systems of built in bloat, countless daemons, desktop searches, databasing and collecting data and spying and UI dumbing down for all us dumb users who have only been using computers for 30-odd years.
I fully agree.
How to tell the KDE people that Akonadi is a bad idea implemented horribly (especially as it likes to go into infinite loops burning 100% CPU at random times). Do I really need a daemon (probably written in unlinted C instead of in a language that actually can be used to describe such a high-level problem) scouring mails for birthday dates, then taking my whole machine with it.
I am still running windows 7 (which I love) and use a windows 10 phone (which I also love). I can't bring myself to get used to a new ui on my comp which is why I haven't upgraded yet. Should I take the plunge and upgrade for free before the 29th, or live with Windows 7? Is there a way I can trial windows 10 for free and downgrade if I hate it?
Make a full backup, let Windows 10 install before the deadline, then make a second full backup. That should leave you with both options: stick with Windows 7, and still be able to change to 10 even after the deadline.
Supposedly you can let the “upgrade” from 7 to 10 run, then revert back within a month if you don’t like it:
I haven’t tried the process, but I wouldn’t recommend it because I simply cannot believe it won’t leave your 7 installation mucked up somehow.
Another alternative would be to try a Windows 10 VM:
The VMs are aimed at developers but it’s a less-disruptive way to have a quick play than installing on top of your existing system.
Nope the revert option doesnt work, from my experience this is because the windows 10 upgrade disables off everything that it think will be incompatible, then it takes your recovery image and then installs 10. Go Back and ive found task scheduler has been screwed over and many things that were part of hardware drivers were also screwed up. The only reasonable way to recover when this happened without losing a full head of hair was a clean install. So if you do upgrade, take a full disk/partition image so you have something to come back to when you do.
However my advice is you consider also trying a popular linux distro instead/as well.
"A simple example is the new UWP calculator; it may be prettier than the old accessory, but it is slower to launch, takes more screen space without advantage..."
Uh, wait. 'Prettier than the old accessory'. SERIOUSLY????
2D FLUGLY is *NOT* *PRETTIER*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You forget about the total eye candy that is Windows 7. *THAT* is "prettier".
2D FLUGLY is JUST! PLAIN! UGLY!!!
You know, like Windows 1.01 was: flat, crayon-art, etch-a-sketch quality, *BARELY* better than an MS-DOS 'GUI-like screen' with ASCII graphics (say 'QBASIC').
as opposed to that really nice screen from the article, despite it having fewer things to put checkboxes in: it just LOOKS BETTER
the image on the RIGHT is CLEARLY more aesthetic, more pleasent. Micro-shaft's move towards fat-finger-friendly screen-real-estate-wasting 2D-FLUGLY EXCREMENT was one of the WORST things ever invented by the Ballmer/Turner/Sinofsky "3 Stooges", killers of Microsoft's image, quality, and future.
No _WONDER_ they have to SHOVE! IT! UP! OUR! ASSES! with GWX!
I have 2 installations of windows 10. I keep hearing these glowing reviews of how great it is to upgrade. So far my experience of windows 10 is that it is unstable, looks ugly, needs classic shell installed for any sort of productivity, is probably spying on me, and looses a number of useful features and programs I had in windows 7.
This is more like a downgrade than an upgrade. Linux mint by contrast has never crashed on the 3 machines that run it.
"no way in hell" camp here
As far as I'm concerned now, Linux mint 17 LTS is an operating system thats good to use.
Installed with no problem the other day on an old box, is stable , sort of fast, runs the steam games I like to play (basically all the source/source2 engined ones), plus kerbal space program and a few others.
Runs everything you could want out of a pc including that dratted candy crush(only for checking purposes)
Even the HP scanner/printer I use was installed with less hassle than windows.
If the 3 windows applications we use at work were available on Linux, the resident m$ fanboy has said he'd dump windows faster than a broken tool leaving the CNC lathe.
Sorry microsoft's time is over and its only inertia thats still keeping everyone tied to them..
I find Mint 18 LTS even better.
While my main machine remains on 17.3, the entertainment machine is now running 18 and it has solved a minor problem I was having with my ASUS U5 external sound card. Oddly, while Mint 18 has no problem with the UEFI BIOS on that machine in secure boot mode, Win 7 does. Go figure...
Microsoft have demonstrated that they are ethically unsuitable for a place in my office. They are attempting to roll out increased control over user's desktops whilst simultaneously demonstrating why that is a really bad idea.
Even if it was the best operating system ever -which it isn't by quite a margin- they wouldn't have a place at my table.
You don't have to actually use Windows 10 to get the free upgrade. You just have to install it long enough to register the digital entitlement.
I imaged the Win7 boot drive; clean-installed 10 (with local user account); activated it with the Win7 serial # for that box; confirmed that "Windows is activated with a digital entitlement;" and restored the Win7 image.
For a couple of hours work (for three PCs), my upgrades are locked in. My Win7 environments are intact, with recent backups. And if I need 10 in the future, I can just clean-install it again; it will activate due to the entitlement.
There's not really a downside. I needed to do backups anyway.
> [singing] He gives the kids free samples, because he knows full well, that today's young innocent faces, are tomorrow's clientèle [/singing]
Oh! Oh! Can I join in the sing-along? How about some
Masochism Windows Update Tango?
[singing]Bash in my brain, and make me scream with pain
Then kick me once again
And say we'll never part
I know too well, I'm underneath your spell
So darling if you smell something burning it's my heart!
Take your cigarette from its holder
And burn your initials in my shoulder
Fracture my spine
And swear that you're mine
As we dance to the
Masochism Windows Update Tango![/singing]
[singing] I have personally won over...
Lookin' like a muscle man
You crawled out from the swamp
Slimy, wild, you honey child
Give me your hump
You done my brain in
You done my brain in
And I just can't handle it
You done my brain in! [/singing]
its pretty simple for me.
have 7? then dont do it, if you really must have it, image your machine, back up your stuff, wipe the disk, do a fresh install. reimage machine with 7 when you are pissed off.
have 8? then back up your stuff, wipe the disk, install windows 7. if you must have 10,image your machine, back up your stuff, wipe the disk, do a fresh install.
the only good thing about 10 is it slighly less shit than 8
the idea of doing an inplace upgrade is fucking stupid, it always been stupid, it always will be stupid. even if it looks like it works, it can cause problems down the line. bite the bullet, and do it properly.
ive seen the 10 upgrades do all sorts of crazy shit. remove security, remove other programs, ruin file shares and permissions, ruin network adaptors.
stay with 7 until the middle of 2020, maybe then 10 or whatever it has morphed into wont be quite as shit.
"stay with 7 until the middle of 2020, maybe then 10 or whatever it has morphed into wont be quite as shit."
That was my hope at first, but as the year wore on, my hope that this would ever happen evaporated, and I began the transition to Linux Mint in a dual boot setup. Mint is great-- I use it most of the time now, seldom needing Windows for anything, and I am finding that pretty much all of my little one-off special purpose Windows programs work perfectly under WINE.
I've got more than three years to complete the transition, and I can either bet on 10 getting much better or that Linux Mint or another distro will at least remain as good as it is now. With MS doing things like locking down Cortana to make sure people don't use anything but Bing, I'm sure not going to bet on 10 ever becoming better than the mess it is now... and all Linux needs to do is to not get worse. Even if it remains the same as it is now, Linux is still the winner of that comparison-- and unlike 10, Linux is still getting better, year by year... glacially, but still heading in the right direction, for the most part (systemd may be an exception, but there are far more in Windows).
I don't care if it is free or if MS actually pays me to run it, it is IMHO a POSS (piece of Spyware Shit).
It aint gonna run on any of my kit even in a VM.
If fact MS should pay us for all that lovely data they are slurping from us.
It is just not worth the trouble and the angst.
I can't help feeling that thier 'we are going to do the update when we feel like it' idocy will ruin a good few multi Billion $$ sales pitches before MS gets told at the CEO level to fix their shite.
For the rest of us?
Not worth the trouble.
~ Your justification 'for most people' is to show Command Prompt settings, WTF?
~ Embracing Win-10 requires a leap of faith that a corp who fears its own irrelevancy and uses Malware to enforce its dominance, can be trusted in the longer term. Overall, no one knows what plans M$ has for this thing. Forced updates and slurping means users are essentially passengers / sheep!
~ 'Games players have several reasons to upgrade'... There are plenty damning reviews of UWP games too, that you failed to mention. Focus and full-screen issues along with input problems etc. Not sold on the advantages from DX12 alone.
~ 'It should be possible to reinstall 10 later and find it fully licensed'.... Should??? Where are the numbers to back this up. Are you going to be on call when users get creamed and can't revert to Win7?
"One lovely surprise is when Win 10 decides to update for 90 minutes right in the afternoon. WTFG!"
I frequently put off updates on XBox 360. The 'yes/no' full-page thingies [that often repeat] aren't something I want interrupting my game time, and I don't want to waste OTHER time doing their blasted update downloads. And considering what some of the 'update's have added [including ADVERTISEMENT CONTENT] I think I'll pass until I have nothing better to do...
But at least I can *DECLINE* the "offer" on a 360. I can't imagine what 10 on an 'XBox One' might do to your afternoon if you REALLY wanted to play a game, but end up waiting 90 minutes or more to "update" instead.
: : : From Author:
"The Windows 10 Start menu is not altogether better than that in Windows 7. Despite reverting from the full-screen affair in Windows 8, it is not the same thing at all, and is slower and more complex."
I did a small bit of work on a friend's Win10 (upgraded) PC. His PC is slightly better than mine - because its 2 years newer. (I5 / 16GB RAM). The ole "just start typing to find program" was soooooooooooooooo Sloooooooooow. On my Win7 PC, I can type normal speed and it'll show my program or files in a split seconds. I just used his W10 PC long enough to make sure his AntiVirus software was up to date and do a backup. I told him "sorry, whatever problems you have with W10 - I am not helping you with it".
My impression was W10... "Ugly POS OS that is even worse than I imagined". It really offers nothing...
: : : From Article author:
"Why most people should still upgrade
Despite these issues, the upgrade is the right thing for most people, if the hardware is compatible.
One reason is simply that Windows 10 will be serviced and supported for longer, so if you plan to stick with Windows you will have to upgrade sometime.
Second, while Windows 10 does have its share of annoyances, they are outweighed by the number of things that have improved. Forget Cortana; it is things like the primitive Windows 7 File Copy dialog that are annoying if you return to 7 after using Windows 8 or 10. The newer File Copy handles multiple file copies better, with options to pause and resume each operation."
NO! NO! NO! NO! W10 has a lot of issues. Only reason people should upgrade for free is IF they want W10 anyway.
Supported Longer? Who knows? But Win7 is supposed to have support until 2020... Another four years.
Yeah, I and others WILL upgrade sometime. TO LINUX!! I'm already starting my migration process by using Linux on one of my computers. Eventually it'll be on my 2nd, then 3rd.
Win10 is easily more complicated and user-unfriendly over LinuxMint.
Annoyances? File Copy Dialog? Okay, Download (for free) Terra Copy - and it'll kick Win10's Copy window in the balls.
Want TABS for File explorer? There are a few FREE alternatives. Like "Explorer Plus" which has been around since Win8 days.
To make it clear:
SCREW Windows 10!
Microsoft is going to introduce a monthly subscription fee for Windows 10 usage (Windows 10 Enterprise E3). The cost will be $US7 per user per month. The good news is it only applies to enterprises, for now. That's $US84 per year. Presumably when consumers become charged monthly the cost will be higher.
So its started already:
Its strange how 20 years ago, if the public at large and governments were told their new OS would phone home every single thing you did, key you pressed, program you opened and gave ms access to anything/file on your machine any time they wanted, MS would have been pulled apart and had more legal cases than you could shake a large stick at.
Then we had the death of privacy, now countries with 3 letter agencies are happy to turn a blind eye as long as they are given access to the special back end, cough telemetry system... the governments that are complaining now (France etc) will only bitch until they get allowed in on the fun.
Sure switch to osx, but despite apples poor bit of theatre over one single phone, when they had already handed over the icloud backup and everything else in their possession, it fooled very few, apple protects their bottom line first.
I had resisted using linux on the desktop and only used linux on servers for a long time, ive been largely happy with windows upto this last move from MS, but im done, everything i have is moving to linux.
If you had told me 20 years ago about how a MS OS update that would slurp all your data, potentially charge you a monthly subscription and the only choice to the update was yes do it now, yes do it later or opps you clicked the x and im going to take that as a yes and i will do it later when you lease expect it. I would have suspected i was being told about some sick aprils fool gag... Its a sad world we now live in.
But there is still a choice, and its called open source.
Its like buying a new build home, but unknowingly you agree to the builder coming in any time they want to look through anything they want, open your letters, record all of your communications made during your time in the house, even which rooms you were in and how much time you spent in them. Make any changes they like to your home in the future if they change their mind and decided a wall would look better over there, then after a couple of years of living on your new home them asking you pony up a monthly subscription to use your own bathroom. If you dont agree you can instead just piss out the window and wash using the kitchen sink. And by the way the builder is going to give out a copy of your keys to any government agency by default and they will also be able to let them self in and put the kettle on regardless of you being in, out or asleep and have a poke around and get access to all the post, calls, conversations, photos etc the builder saved up/recorded, all without any warrant, due course or suspicion of any wrong doing. But its for your own safety, its to protect your children, and keep you safe from other threats.
But the builder (even if they wanted to, but they honestly don't because most of this was their creepy idea) couldn't/wouldn't tell you they were doing this. Because the government would forbid them from telling you what was going on with a secret gag order. Instead all you would get told is the builder would need access to your home from time to time to make sure it was working correctly and the paint wasn't pealing or locks were still working properly and you would only know this if you read through some lengthy legal document that would be written by lawyers and in a language that vaguely resembled English but made little sense. And if you ever tried you might end up with rsi from turning all the pages and permanent eye strain/damage from trying to read the 1pt font they used.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it, so would all of this windows 10 crap 20 years ago....
Make your own choices, ive made mine and its penguin called TUX, so F U MS, so long and thanks for all the fish.
You forgot that you could come home one day and find that the entertainment room, the room you most used in the house, was suddenly gone. The builder had come and removed it, and all your personal possessions in it, because they felt like it.
And they'd come and take out your TV and your bed and clean out your kitchen, leaving you with only a few items of lesser quality. Why? Because they felt you should only use the products supplied by their "partners" and on a whim they will come and remove any competing products. And all the items (data) with them, eg your family photo collection because the photo album was the wrong brand.
Two hundred comments, and I ain't going through them all to see if someone mentioned this. Submitted for your approval, and handful of Windows 7 machines which, for various reasons, need to remain on 7 past the free 10 upgrade period. It seems to me that if the offer was there at one time, the machine should qualify later (okay, I know that is not technically how it works, LTO, operators standing by, and all that.)
Makes me wonder if one could make a full system image (backup or third-party,) upgrade and activate 10. Then restore the Windows 7 image (why not revert from 10? Literally a litany of stories on why not out there.) Use the computer until such time as 7 is no longer a necessity then load the computer with Windows 10 media. Since the hardware is the same and activated with all the same identifying markers, should work, right?
"Makes me wonder if one could make a full system image (backup or third-party,) upgrade and activate 10. Then restore the Windows 7 image (why not revert from 10?"
My experience is that a machine with OEM SLiC activation gives you a bit of leeway. I have a fair stack of Dell T5500 and T3500 workstations that I have been upgrading. This is for clients who still run Windows 7 specific software, but wanted to bank the digital entitlement for later use.
Cloning the hard drives (using dd under *nix) and then running the update on the cloned drive activated fine. As did a drive cloned from one machine, and used for digital activation in another machine. All using a Dell OEM windows 7 activation. This meant I could clone in the first machine I upgraded, transfer the cloned drive to a new machine for upgrade, and gradually expand this across a number of machines.
Once the digital entitlement is active for a machine, you can re-install a clean windows 7 (format the upgraded drive) and the machine activates with the correct windows 10 version (Pro, in this case). These old Dell workstations are quite nice (great rock solid boxes), because you can turn a drive on or off in the bios, so each machine is back running with the original windows 7 setup, but with a clean activated windows 10 installation ready to be enabled via bios. I've also done this process of cloning the drive with laptops and other machines, and it seems to work appropriately for qualifying versions of the previous windows OS for both windows 10 home and pro.
It would seem that it's a relatively flexible process, with Microsoft happier to have you in the fold, rather than deny you a license.
As for using windows versus linux - I started in the CP/M era. It constantly amazes me how intellectual property law has been used to take a slew of innovations that were previously shared for greater good, to being protected so that they could be mined. Instead of the hardware being the product, the software now is. Microsoft are at the centre of monetising the software, and they want to be at the centre of monetising services. They are nothing like the best at any of it, but they have most enterprise support, because they build in the most chargeable layers.
If you install clean, put all the customised settings to "off" and don't let cortana search for anything....then windows 10 works okay. It takes an age to boot and it's slow as hell at stuff though. If you don't believe that then put something like cub linux on the same machine instead.
I owe my working life to the crippling of users capability. I'm amazed that some people appear to have only just noticed. This isn't a new windows 10 thing.
I for one can't have an OS deciding from week-to-week whether it is going to delete applications and potentially data off my system.
And then there is the obscene amount of telemetry that Windows 10 sends back to Redmond :(
Holy crap, the Tin Foil Hat Club is in full swing today.
Funny thing is these same type of people gave the same complaints for every new ms os , including their beloved windows 7, "I'm never moving off of windows xp, windows 7 is piece of junk, spyware ridden, I cant believe you have to switch to admin to change system settings" etc etc. telemetry can be disabled even at install so quit wining and if your extra paranoid even with basic networking knowledge you can find the ports it uses for communication and block them with router or firewall. (it doesnt use standard ports)
windows 10 is actually significantly better than windows 7, is it different yes, so oh no you have to learn something, so scary.
its great for power users, search is way better, small tip you don't have to wait for text to show in the box for it to be used, ie click start start typing an hit enter ignore the box, and it will search faster and more accurately than windows 7 or 8. power shell has a lot of extended commands. Finally multiple desktops is well implemented even apps open on different desktops. My favorite improvements are the the file operation, prior to 8.1 including windows 7 file operations were a chore. i regularly upload alot of files to our file server, its nice to be able to add files to an existing copy or move without slowing it down and not have 2 different operations, its also multi-threaded and make much better use of memory to cache, that feature a lot is worth the switch.
most of the haters just go after what they hear or tried for one day didn't bother to learn how to use it and condemn just cause "it made learn have to learn stuff"
windows 10 is actually significantly better than windows 7, is it different yes...
Significantly better because it doesn't have Windows Media Centre, so you can no longer watch TV? Significantly better because it pops up a dialog box every few minutes complaining about a "graphics issue"? Significantly better because there's no longer an HCL to decide which video adaptor might work with W10? And what the fuck does "it made learn have to learn stuff" mean?
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I'll rise to the bait.... seeing as its saturday mornign and use just 1 difference between mint 17(just installed here at home) and ****ing windows ****ing 10
I work at a small engineering business, and its time for me to get on the windows 10 powered laptop and use the CAM software to create another masterpiece in stainless steel only............... updating updating updating .. Boss comes over "*%**((*&( job not running , machine not *&%&*$* running , costing us money *%&*&%*^& sort it out Boris fast otherwise you're fired" kinda message (I think there was more swearing involved but thats the general gist of it)
I switch on my Mint machine this morning and see the updates icon in the tool bar, click on it, presented with a dialog box with choices and a big button saying "Update now?" and the close window button shuts the dialog without making changes
If microsoft could do that with win10, it would kill some of the hate felt towards it.....
"Funny thing is these same type of people gave the same complaints for every new ms os , including their beloved windows 7, "I'm never moving off of windows xp, windows 7 is piece of junk, spyware ridden, I cant believe you have to switch to admin to change system settings""
You seem to have an intermittent problem with your shift key.
Actually, from my recollection, no previous Windows version seems to have triggered this amount of ire. In fact I don't think all the previous versions put together have done so...
As an ex-MS Certified Professional and half of a Certified Solution Provider (aka MS Shill according to the Linuxen) and recent convert to Cinnamon Mint (11 months ago) I agree. Wholeheartedly and with great conviction.
After 5 years of what is arguably the best Windows ever, MS decided to make using a Win7 machine as unpleasant as possible. While the last 11 months running Mint haven't been completely smoo, fixing the occasional gotchas has been far easier than even the minor issues that Win7 presented. So I'm rather more grateful than angry. So it goes...
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"windows 10 is actually significantly better than windows 7, is it different yes, so oh no you have to learn something, so scary."
typical. arrogant. snooty-snob. snot-nosed-baby. pejoratively criticizing those who simply DISAGREE.
What, is their something CLINICALLY WRONG WITH US (tin foil hat insanity) if we do NOT embrace "the glory and wonder" of Win-10-nic ??? *AND* become EVANGELISTS for it? "The cult of Redmond" indeed.
'oh no you have to learn something'. So much arrogance and snobbery in THAT statement alone, I don't know where to begin criticizing it, except to point it out again.
Yeah we're all a bunch of WACKY NEANDERTHALS for *not* "getting on the bandwagon" with Win-10-nic, REFUSING TO LEARN, evolutionary THROWBACKS now doomed to EXTINCTION for NOT ADAPTING to "the new normal".
In a year I'll offer you a special dish, Crow a la humility sauce. enjoy.
[since we're "going to have to learn something" I suggest learning LINUX instead!]
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My favorite improvements are the the file operation, prior to 8.1 including windows 7 file operations were a chore.
Yup, IME Windows 10 is just fucking AWESOME at copying files.
Sorry, mis-spelt "awful". Like 48 hours to copy less than 10G over USB awful. (see http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/containing/2698158 )
It's shit. Everything about it is shit. It has no redeeming features. Use Linux (or BSD or any other *Nix), save yourself some stress, money, and save the rest of us from that malware ridden shitfest. Linux doesn't get infections from opening up word documents, unlike Windows 10 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/12/july_windows_microsoft_patch_tuesday_adobe/) nor are your printer drives a thing to fear (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/13/windows_printer_driver_flaw_patch_asap/)
most of the haters just go after what they hear or tried for one day didn't bother to learn how to use it and condemn just cause "it made learn have to learn stuff"
Like most people here (it is a technical news site after all!) I've been using computers and various OS's for a long time. Learning new tricks isn't a problem. Having to use stupid cockups because MS can't do things in a decent way, however, is. I mean 48hours to copy a few files on USB3 when USB1 could transfer that much data much faster.. And the shitload of other problems.. You even mentioned "you don't have to wait for the search box to come up just type" - for fucks sake a modern OS should not have the concept of "wait for the search box". 10 is slow and buggy and you try to make that out to somehow be an advantage!
I mean 48hours to copy a few files on USB3 when USB1 could transfer that much data much faster.
I feel your pain ;-) Dunno about W10, but I use Beyond Compare and my license covers Win, OS X and Linux. You can purchase individual licenses too. Before that I used to use robocopy (since NT 4), but no doubt that's been removed from W10 as well "for our convenience".
"I just installed OpenSUSE onto my machines."
- I'm going to get that post framed for the novelty value. OpenSuse'? are you sure you didn't mean to write 'Mint' (might be easy to get them confused, they both have greenish themes).
I'm not one-sided, I've Ubuntu on one machine and Archlinux on another. I'm just astonished somebody decided on something other than Mint (and not for SystemD issues), as if that is the only workable 'Linux distro.
Your choice of icon seems appropriate for your views.
As I've said a number of times here, go and read what Microsoft grant themselves access to once you've agreed to their T&Cs. And read it carefully enough to spot that they don't exclude any accreditations you may have with non-Microsoft entities, nor to any transactions you may make with non-Microsoft entities. Remember that Microsoft, at the very top, is run by lawyers; do you think such gaps were accidental oversights?
Yes, they've made various statements as to the fact that they don't do this, don't do that. They may well be prepared to swear on a stack of Bibles that they don't. It doesn't alter the fact that that can be changed tomorrow by an update that their users won't be able to decline and the legal gate to allow them to do that has been left wide open.
And if you still don't think that amounts to anything, then at least take a little time to ponder why the French data protection regulator is now taking them to task over all this.
"No if you own and wear a tinfoil hat which has a propeller on it."
a big "thumbs down" for more smug, snooty-snob arrogance, and the pejorative 'tin foil hat' commentary.
unless you were being facetious. but it seems you were not.
you seem to think there are no LEGITIMATE reasons for *NOT* embracing Win-10-nic. I find the 2D FLUGLY to be #1 - I can't stand seeing it in Win "Ape" (8.x) either. So I use 7.
the advertising and spyware and EULA "anti-privacy" are just MORE reasons to NOT use it.
About 2/3 of desktop computer users are NOT using Win-10-nic, despite it being FREE, for a YEAR. MOST of these people use W7. Many online resources, such as statcounter, support this.
(the ratio of 7 to "Ape" users was about the same, 2:1, before Win-10-nic released).
Your 99.99% "should upgrade" argument doesn't hold much water. It's like some claim that a LOT of idiots, who don't have facts to back up what they say, would make: they just make schhhtuff up,
rectally atmospherically extrapolated, as if it's "truth", to "prove" their points.
I've been migrating to linux mint away from ms. The only things I'm left with windows 10 for are stereoscopic gaming because nvidia couldn't be bothered to make the driver available on linux, and one windows program for web building that won't run on wine.
The thing that has impressed me is just how much better Linux mint is. OK - linux has big differences under the hood - but for the most part once set up its very easy for windows users to use. Google chrome, dropbox, foxit reader, skype and steam all work. VLC and smplayer can cope with any multimedia file you throw at it. The native open source linux programs might look superficially less polished than their windows equivalents - but I've found most of them a lot easier to configure and a lot less bloated.
No more virus checkers, no more defragging, no more slow downs over time. No more problems reauthorizing when changing hardware. No more spyware infested downloads. No crashes so far (windows 10 bsods almost every day for me). No more forced updates. All software updated from one updater manager.
Linux mint runs noticeably faster on my hardware than windows 10. Programs open faster, its more stable, I like the workspaces and the configuration. It looks better and if you don't like the defult you can change it very easily. By contrast windows 10 looks like a downgrade on windows 7 with its fluggly flat look, by contrast with cinnamon it now looks amateurish.
Since windows 7, ms have simply lost any notion of listening to users and providing a stable secure OS. This strikes of a bullying company that simply don't give a toss about their core desktop users any more. Well as an ex ms fanboy I don't give a toss about them.
VLC and smplayer can cope with any multimedia file you throw at it.
Yesterday it was snowing, so Mrs Git said: "Let's watch a video". VLC on Mint 18 crashed when attempting to play my "Do Not Adjust Your Set"* DVD. After extracting the video with DVDFab running in Win7 inside a VMWare virtual machine, it played the now "pirated" video fine. Not quite as smoo as it used to be when the machine was Win7 running Windows Media Centre, but then MS decided for whatever reason they didn't want me to be able to run WMC.
* Yes, I know "Do Not Adjust Your Set" was a kiddies' TV show, but it's still very funny even after all these many years.
> Linux myth #1 - no viral worries - malware and viruses can infect Linux machines
While it is true that potentially viruses can infect Linux machines, they don't have the _designed_in_ 'convenience' features that Windows has that make it so easy to infect those machines. While many of these are being disabled now on Windows, such as executing code when a CD or USB is inserted, such as downloaded files can be executable, such as merely selecting an email can execute an attachment; these do not occur on Linux.
> Linux myth #2 - no file fragmentation - fragmentation will occur over time, just not as fast as on Windows.
Of course fragmentation will occur, it just doesn't affect performance much due to the inode structure of the file system.
I can't say I have anything against Macs, really. After all, they're Unix underneath. It's just the price. I wouldn't even say I couldn't afford one if I really wanted one, it's just that there's good enough cheaper elsewhere and always better things to do with spare cash.
That depends to a large extent on what you need a computer for. If, for example, you're into full time publishing, then you're most likely going to be running Adobe InDesign. That only runs on Windows or OS X. As is being discussed here, to continue running that on Win7 requires a constant battle with MS. Since engaging in that battle requires time, and time is money, then it's a no-brainer to run your business on OS X. The extra cost of the hardware is far less than the cost of doing battle with MS.
"That depends to a large extent on what you need a computer for. If, for example, you're into full time publishing, then you're most likely going to be running Adobe InDesign....Since engaging in that battle requires time, and time is money, then it's a no-brainer to run your business on OS X."
Like you I'm retired so I don't need that sort of thing. Writing. A little development, mostly with Lazarus. GIS. Any Unix-style OS does fine.
Like you I'm retired so I don't need that sort of thing.
It's my firm intention to publish another couple of books, so I will be using InDesign and Win7 for that. I also transcribe music from tape and vinyl using Goldwave. I've been using the latter for nearly two decades and since it works extremely well and doesn't run under Wine (despite claims to the contrary) will also require Win7 for the foreseeable. Apart from that, *nix is fine for just about anything I can think of. That's assuming I can find a *nix DVD player that doesn't barf over stupid copy protection schemes.
If those Redmond Happy Merchants gave me back all the time I lost dealing with "Install Windows 10" nagware, I could take a 6-month vacation. It's frankly unbelievable that this kind of behaviour has become accepted practice and does not result in billion-dollar fines, lawsuits and generally an immense Pokéballing.
Never ever ever trust those guys!
People installing Win10 willing are FEMA trailer sheeple.
Aaannnnndddd, what about the OTHER issue - ie: 900lb gorilla in the room? All new CPUs will ONLY run Win 10. They will not boot Win 7. How is this not total collusion between MS and Intel and AMD? How can they get away with this? Why shouldn't you be able to run your older versions on newer processors?! I can't believe that this hasn't generated more buzz here and on other forums!
> I wish people would stop saying "All new CPUs will ONLY run Win 10."
> The truth is Windows versions preceding 10 will not run on new CPUs ...which is not the same thing at all...
Neither of those is true, in spite of Microsoft fans wanting it to be.
New CPUs will run any x86-64 OS including old versions of Windows. However, only Windows 10 (or Linux, BSD, etc) will use the new features that the new CPUs will have. Microsoft will not update pre-10 Windows for those features.
That 900lb gorilla you're seeing must be a result of drinking too much screen cleaner fluid.
Are you sure you are not confused with boot lock-down perpetrated by some OEMs (those with their heads far up the MS alimentary canal)? Or Windows7 not being sold pre-installed any more. Not the same as CPUs at all. Last machine I bought little over a year ago from a small OEM had options for a choice of OS pre-installed for a price or nothing on it all. I didn't pay over the odds either (at least I didn't think so).
If you don't like mass-market shenanigans, don't buy mass-market.
"All new CPUs will ONLY run Win 10."
Actually, not *entirely* true, but there is NO move by Micro-shaft to support newer architectures with older OSs. THAT being said... Micro-shaft appears to NO LONGER BE INTERESTED in other businesses that have (in the past) derived THEIR success from the success of Micro-shaft, and Micro-shaft continues to proceed over the lemming-cliff at full speed, cracking whips behind the stampeding mass in order to speed it up.
If I were Intel and AMD, _I_ would invest in making LINUX the next major OS that people WANT to get in order to run the APPLICATIONS that they want. This would mean a LOT of marketing effort in getting software vendors on board, from games to accounting. All of those applications that run ONLY ON WINDOWS will need to be PORTED.
Remember how Windows 3.0 changed the rules for MS-DOS applications, and EVERYBODY scrambled to "get on board" ? Well... how about a SIMILAR scramble for Linux!!!
THAT is what we need, a mass migration AWAY from Micro-shaft, who can NO LONGER BE TRUSTED to bring success to anyone ELSE... or themselves, for that matter.
Oh, and I'm sure Linux and the BSDs will support the new CPU architecture. Just not Micro-shaft, with any OLDER operating system than Win-10-nic.
Remember how Windows 3.0 changed the rules for MS-DOS applications, and EVERYBODY scrambled to "get on board" ?
Er... no actually. Most commentards and programmers at the time referred to Windows 3.0 as a nine day wonder. The world of business computing was always going to be DOS. In referring to the time BillG recalled that even though MS were giving away the SDK for free (IBM were charging ~$US1,000 for the OS/2 SDK), there was a dearth of programmers interested in writing software for Windows. So he put together a team to write what was to become MS Office and as BillG put it: "They had no choice".
hmmm.... that's not how I remember things. went to the PDC for the 3.1 beta also. As I recall, the Win 3.0 SDK cost me about $300, MS C/C++ 6.0 was another $300, and I had to purchase a 2nd monitor and hercules-compatible adaptor to get CodeView to work under windows. It was a rather big commitment, actually, to do Windows coding, and I didn't see ANY lack of demand for the same stuff I was buying...
I also recall a number of "we're working on it" comments. Lotus went with an OS/2 version at about that time, but didn't make a windows version quickly enough (which they later regretted). Maybe we're just reading the facts differently, but there _was_ a bit of a scramble. It's also not an easy port, going from MS-DOS character mode to Windows GUI. It takes a bit of time.
Paradox for Windows, Lotus for Windows, and Word Perfect for windows took a year or so to become available. But everyone was blind-sided by it.
The intent HERE, of course, is to NOT blindside developers with making LINUX versions. We get them on board, NOW, and get the manufacturers to start shipping more linux OS 'preloads', and at REDUCED PRICES while we're at it (since Linux is, essentially, FREE).
hmmm.... that's not how I remember things.
Please note that I didn't write that they gave all copies away. A lot depends on time and place. Here in Oz I've scored Visual Basic 3*, CorelDRAW! 8, Corel Word Perfect for Linux, NT 4 Server and a full Back Office Server for doing nothing other than turn up to a MS Tech Briefing. The samosas and coffee were free too. It's also worth noting that these were just the software; no documentation so benefiting Tim O'Reilly. For chump change, I scored Win95 including the Plus Pack, a Win95 T-shirt and silly hat, Small Business Server 4 and too much other stuff to mention.
Some of the freebies might seem a bit strange for MS to be giving away. These were from briefings given by Tech Pacific about MS corporate licensing. Very boring and irrelevant to my business of training computer users, but worth it for the freebies and excellent breakfast. And music. I first heard Portishead at one such bash.
* This was actually scored by a friend who went to a developer bash and given to the Gitling for his 9th birthday. By the time he wanted to learn C++, he was given an NFR of Visual Studio.
"there was a dearth of programmers interested in writing software for Windows"
There may be something in this. At the time there was a DOS office suite called Smartware. My employers of the time were big users. Informix bought it. In one of several inexplicable decisions the then management team made they didn't port it to Windows (they did contrive to add Informix as a back-end storage for Smartware - but only to the spreadsheet component and not to the database). A bit of rationality there could have seen them taking over the Windows office market. In the end IBM took them over instead.
There may be something in this. At the time there was a DOS office suite called Smartware.
I don't remember Smartware. The biggies here were Lotus Symphony and Enable with MS Works a very distant third. Between 1990 and 1993 most SMBs using PCs were using them primarily for word processing and spreadsheets. The former was dominated by Word Perfect and Wordstar. A distant third was MS Word. Spreadsheeting was dominated by Lotus 1-2-3 followed by Quattro Pro and a distant third again was MS Multiplan. All running under MS or PC DOS. Networking (when used) was Novell's Netware.
By 1994 WfW had made networking much cheaper and many SMBs made the move mainly for that reason. Another reason was that under DOS, the printer driver had to be made available by the software company. Word Perfect were best at this, but what if you could print from Word Perfect, but not Lotus 1-2-3 because Lotus hadn't bothered to write a printer driver for your printer? WfW handled printing for all your Win applications. Not to mention WYSIWYG word processors were a great step forward.
MS were not only benefiting from Word Perfect, Lotus and Wordstar being late to the party. Apple had hired MS to write Word and Excel for the Mac when it was in development so they already had in-house expertise in writing WYSIWYG applications. I've been told that the level of security surrounding those developers for the Mac was insane. The funny thing was, the only people interested in Apple's IP were inside that room with the prototype Macs.
> Aaannnnndddd, what about the OTHER issue - ie: 900lb gorilla in the room? All new CPUs will ONLY run Win 10. They will not boot Win 7. How is this not total collusion between MS and Intel and AMD? How can they get away with this? Why shouldn't you be able to run your older versions on newer processors?! I can't believe that this hasn't generated more buzz here and on other forums!
It hasn't generated 'more buzz' because it simply isn't true.
Microsoft stated that 'only Windows 10 will support the new CPUs' but this only means that the new CPU _features_ will not be backported to older Windows versions. Older versions of Windows (and of Unix, Linux, BSD, MacOS, etc) will still boot and run on the new CPUs but won't use new features.
When MS strip out the telemetry, allow update installation choice and offer a cast-iron guarantee that they will never introduce a subscription-based usage model, I might consider upgrading.
I'm tied to windows because of games and work software that don't (yet - I live in hope) have Linux versions. The moment that I can be windows free and still use the products I have bought, I'm off.
Ugly blocky UI would drive me nuts if it wasn't for Windowblinds. Pro version is less annoying than home.Dial back to Microsoft and annoying Onedrive / cloudy integration stuff is a bit of a pain. Performance is good however and scales well on modern big monitor sand 4k TVs. For me, worth it for that alone. But buy Windowsblinds. Blocky and garish isn't modern, it is tacky..
... when MS released 3.11 (Windows for Workgroups). While the Truetype* scaleable font technology had been introduced with Win3.1, WfW introduced networking. Previously you needed a product like Novell's NetWare to network computers. Further, Netware charged big dollars for its TCP/IP stack and WfW included one for free.
* Prior to this you needed to build individual fonts or you used Adobe Type Manager and Postscript fonts. The former was much cheaper, but excruciatingly slow; the latter was eye-wateringly expensive. Further, Win3.0 was very limited in the number of fonts you could install.
You'll be wanting winsock.dll ...got it on a floppy 'round here somewhere...
"As a gesture of good will, Peter Tattam, the sole copyright owner of Trumpet Winsock, has also issued an amnesty on any copyright infringement by all users (individual and corporate) of Trumpet Winsock indefinitely for use prior to Jan 2011. He does however reserve all other rights in the copyright of Trumpet Winsock."
The latest version supports IPv6 and if you feel so inclined, you can support Peter Tattam's good work even if you didn't do so when his Winsock was virtually essential.
I have sought out the holy grail (Freedom From Windows) for nearly 20 years (Mandrake 5 or some such). I have finally found it. Linux Mint 17 with a Virtual box of Windows 7. I can do anything and everything I EVER need to do and Never, NEVER boot windows. (this isn't cheap or easy, Netflix on Mozilla on Win 7 in Virtual box on Mint 17 takes a quad core processor and lots of memory to work well).
No matter... I am free.
P.S. Best proof that this writer has been had by Microsoft (one way or the other) is his positive view of the Win 10 Calculator. This is easily, and by far, the UGLIEST APP EVER. The flatness, simplicity, lack of color or detail, and everything about it is so bad that if a 10 year old student did something like this back in the bad old days of Windows 3.1, I would have wanted to slap them. Same with the white chalk on the blackboard icons. Ugly. The new disk properties dialogue. Ugly. Wait, have I talked about the new "settings" menus and dialogues? Bugly, Fugly, Ugly. Everything in this entire user interface is ugly. Anyone who believes that this whole thing is not absolutely ugly is either blind, paid by Microsoft, or stupid, and needs slapped. It is nothing but a massive offence to the human eye.
Windows today is nothing more than a glorified Dosbox.
For the new stuff, especially on mobile, it's between Apple and Android. Most content is platform agnostic, but Windows still has an abysmal market share in mobile.
DirectX 12 is pointless unless the graphics card manufacturers AND game developers get on board and implement the standards fully. Also, eye candy is not a valid substitute for gameplay. I can't think of a game today which approaches the greatness of games published from mid-1990s to mid-2000s. Even Blizzard is a shadow of its former self after its acquisition by Activision.
I'm glad I'm still on Vista... spared the nagging and the sneaky pop-up reminder ads.
Are these really the reasons why you should switch to Win10?
I'm amazed.... a better file copy dialog, a bash shell, multiple desktops?
That bascially tells me that Win10 is last centuries technology, as I had all this stuff already before 2000.
For those still wondering if they should go for Win10: had to switch to Win10 at work, and my judgement is clear: avoid if possible.
All you get is more complicated ways to do things you could do before, and some completely superfluous eye candy. This is not an OS, this is a social network where you can also store file. And please remember to like the login screen!
I have been running 10 since Q4 2014 when it was a pretty crude insider beta. Its been pretty much ready for prime time since the end of Q1 2015, and as it stands I am sending this from the Edge browser on Version 1607 (Build 14393.3) and this is the release code you will get for the full rollout on July 29. This product is good to go and a dream to maintain compared to 7, and is everything that 8.1 was supposed to be (but wasn't).
I tried Windows 10 with one of my laptops in spite of Lenovo's warning, because Microsoft provided a 'Compatibility Report' that claimed it would work.
IT DIDN'T WORK properly. Lack of functional drivers I think. Too many laptop features and I/O ports stopped working.
Reverted to Windows 7.
One tablet worked fine after Window 10.
If it aint broke, don't try and fix it.
To the average user, there is zero 'need' to upgrade.
And there's the rub. MS have effectively broken Win7 and are offering Win10 as the fix. I'm finding the average user is perfectly happy with Cinnamon Mint as the fix. As is the local computer fixit dude who does these things for a living.
My computer (at least the one eligible for free Win 10), a Thinkpad W520, never ticked over the auto upgrade, and when the breadth of Microsoft's plan became apparent, I installed GWX Control Panel Monitor. I'm not bothered. Still, it might be nice to have Win 10 in reserve, just in case.
I can see two scenarios:
1. DL the Win10 ISO, to be installed later. Might this work, or will MS's verification servers just say "too late" ?
2. Install Win10 on a spare hard drive, ready to be swapped in if the need arises. I remember that the 701C needed a BIOS tweak to be able to run Win95a versus the original Win95, but am assuming those sorts of necessities are a thing of the past.
The W520 runs Lenovo OEM Windows 7 Pro, 64-bit. Will either of the above work?--and I suppose I should also find out if it's legal. I'd hate to offend a eula.
I would try the inplace upgrade first. It uses the available drivers. You might have to do some extra driver search with a clean install. I have a pro audio card that stopped support after XP. I found Vista 64 beta drivers through their ftp site and W10 is using those drivers. Also an firewire devices may require searching if you do a clean install.
One thing I have W10 credit is it will support legacy devices.
I know usually a clean install is best on a new OS but I only had a problem on one system and that fix was to create a new user folder. The old one was corrupt.
I know when I installed W10 when it was still in beta it would not let me create a dual boot.
Do an in place upgrade 1st. You have 30 days. If you don't like it W10 does a great job of reverting back.
W520 should do nicely. I had W500 available for W10 trials, it installed without hitches. Although I'm not actively using W10 myself, just tried it out of curiosity.
Go for spare HDD & ISO install, it's much neater that way.
W7 license should stay intact - SLIC keys are burned into the motherboard UEFI flash and AFAIK not changeable by Windows.
I agree with SiWB: Choose option 2. if you want to keep your options open.
The installer will gather together your hardware's unique ID codes and use them to generate your FREE surveillance account with MSFT/NSA. When you swap drives back to 7, that account will just sit there, inactive, waiting for you to swap to the 10 drive and start feeding it data.
I first used it on an Intel system with a Q6600. The add on hardware works.
A few years a ago I bought Windows Anyitme upgrades for my 3 Retail licenses of W7 Home. What bothered me was W7 Pro licenses now turned into OEMs. Eventually the vendor was sued my MS and now gone. After upgrading these to W10 they are now back to retail versions. The W10 retail licenses will still allow for hardware changes.
Two are on Windows 10 for good. One I upgraded and reverted back only because I still need XP mode for a certain scanner. If you run any legacy hardware in XP mode you are taking a chance with another virtual machine in W10 of not being able to use that hardware again. BTW I reverted that machine with Acronis 2010.
If you want your free upgrade make an image of your current OS and one of 10 just in case you might want to go back.
Because many people were reporting difficulties I had sidestepped the "free upgrade" issue. Instead I bought a new PC with Win10 pre-installed, kept my Win7Pro processor unit next to it and added a KVM switch so I could swap between the two easily. Took the opportunity to go 64 bit, get a box with plenty of RAM, SSD and latest CPU.
That made the migration of apps and data easier, primarily less haste to get everything shifted and tested, I'd got contingency against any Win10 problems.
My wife fell for one of MS upgrade tricks, inadvertently taking the upgrade a few weeks ago, it worked but at the cost of a day's lost productivity (and a load of stress for her local IT geek - me).
Last week I decided that Win 7 box was by now essentially redundant so I might as well try the upgrade. I'd never got the Microsoft nag messages trying to get me to do it so did wonder if, despite the box being up to spec, there might be an issue. I swapped out the HDD for a spare 1TB drive reasoning that I'd got an easy way back to Win 7 any time I want by going back to the old HDD.
I did have some problems - like couldn't get it to boot off recovery media and Win10 iso DVD so it took most of the day. Rather than try to find out why I tried USB, that worked. I chose custom install and said no to all the options which might feed info back to MS.
The final result was the cleanest machine ever, no dealer installed crapware just the OS. Boot times which had become miserable are now fastest ever.
My verdict is still remain with the OS you've got if you expect to replace the PC before the end of extended support for your version, the upgrade will cost you lost productivity for no real benefit.
My next problem is to find a good use for my "spare" PC.
According to Microsoft and HP, my quad core i7 8GB full HD Nvidia+1GB laptop is already out of support for WindoX. The computer is from before 2013 and so was not tested for compatibility. (It is from 2009) New equipment is recommended. However, when I ran the preupgrade compatibility check, it only complained about an old version of a partition manager program, which I uninstalled. Device Manager for both Windoze7 and WindoX show an error flag only for the IntelTurboBoost Driver still dated from 2009.
Under WindoX, everything else works, even PDF Redirect, MS Office XP, and MSW Logo from 2002, except for my old DOS 16 bit applications, which no Windows x64 version can run on its own, I was very surprised that it did not overlay the Grub2 bootmanager and its settings for linux/Windows dual boot.
WindoX takes 37% more memory than Windoze7 doing nothing once stabilized after boot (2.6 vs 1.9 GB). If I had less memory, that would be a show stopper.
I will keep WindoX for some of the reasons given in previous comments, and also because (1) It supports my Bluetooth headset as both stereo headphones and as a phone headset with its various control buttons. and (2) It boots faster, only 50% longer than linux to the login prompt. I really only run Windows a few times a year, but I take quicker boot as an indication of more efficient performance.
In a perfect world, I should not notice if Windows was version 7, 8, or 10. It should sit quietly in the background and run my applications. I never boot my computer and say to myself, I have to run Windows today. I say to myself, I have to check my email, edit my photographs, write my documents, and do my work.
Operating systems have become beasts which we have to spend weeks asking ourselves, What settings and patches to I have to make to have it sit quietly in the background again?
If I decide to buy another motherboard, memory and cpu, along with another graphics cards, in order to support the newest games, I must run windows 10.
Even if it means to install my windows 7 and pay for the eventual upgrade to 10 on the new shiny, because the free version was already spent on my current machine.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, I still must pay for the latest Windoze. The only """""""""""free""""""""""" OS was Windows 98, that could be installed in how many machines you had at home, and you had to pay for just one copy.
Get Windows 10 claims my laptop is compatible, but after clicking on the icon, it's just not giving me the pop-up when the download is ready...
Never mind... I shall probably wipe the laptop and stick the latest Linux Mint on it and just run a copy of windows 7 in VirtualBox...
Now tonight is the laptop's last chance before wiping it...
Tonight I will see if the desktop box will be upgradable from Win 7 Pro...
I run Win7 on my iMac using BootCamp and Win7 is where I'm sticking. If I'm ever forced to upgrade I will scrap the partition and switch to one of the Linux offcuts if they'll run on my iMac partition and if not, I'll delete the partition and let the iMac OS take it back.
My old laptop is a different story. I reformatted and reinstalled Win7 and then let it upgrade to Win10. To be honest it doesn't look bad and appears to be a little snappier than Win7 but I don't really care. From what I've seen I'd never part with £100 for what is a great solution to a problem I never had. I can see no compelling reason to use Win10. Apart from all the hype and super-speak it really is very underwhelming and for my needs, rather pointless. So long as Win10 is free I'll let my laptop languish in the corner, mostly unwanted. There it can rust with Win10 onboard.
As they say, "Use Microsoft Win10. 350 million users can't be wrong" to which the corollary applies "Eat shite. 350 million flies can't be wrong."
Got a new PC for hooking it up to the telly, it came with Win10.
But for the real work, it is 8.1 Pro. I do not want telemetry etc.
Anyway, most of the time, this is to boot some Linux VM to do development.
What Windows is good at is to get the hardware supported properly. Provided the hardware maker follows up. Samsung actively discouraged to upgrade to Win10 due to driver issues.
FWIW, I am typing this from an old MBP mid 2009, which works perfectly well with the latest macOS.
I doubt I could get things working that seamlessly with the equivalent laptop of old. I tried and it failed.
Did a couple of new machine installs for a family over the weekend, all the machines are Windows 7 based. None of them would even entertain Windows 10. Joe public generally doesn't trust it - and that's a cross-section across many different people I talk to in lots of walks of life, where their day job isn't IT.
The only gotcha on Win7 installs at the moment is that you need the MS fix for stalled Windows updates (it just spends hours looking for updates). Once the fix is installed, things are back to normal and things are fine. Other than that it all still easy as anything.
"The only gotcha on Win7 installs at the moment is that you need the MS fix for stalled Windows updates (it just spends hours looking for updates). Once the fix is installed, things are back to normal and things are fine. Other than that it all still easy as anything."
tried that fix... didn't seem to do anything...
anyway, that laptop is getting Linux on it this weekend...
The new desktop box is remaining off until Saturday when the free offer is over... I've decided that Win& Pro is perfectly fine especially when I do most of my browsing ec. using Linux in VirtualBox...
The old Linux desktop is going to become an NAS/Media Server... hiding 'headless' behind the TV stand. Give it a fixed IP and control it remotely.
This post has been deleted by its author
Posted a week ago
"Is it me just being a cynical, suspicious old git...
Or come the deadline 8 and a bit days from now is Microshaft going to gift their
valued customers by extending the FREE* Windon't 10 upgrade?
"Microsoft made it clear that it is not restricting access to specific assistive technologies. In fact, the company is not restricting access at all. You do confirm however that you are using assistive technologies with a click on the upgrade now button.
If you want Windows 10 now and are ready to take advantage of the free upgrade offer, click the button below to get started.
Yes, I use assistive technologies and I am ready for my free upgrade to Windows 10.
This means that anyone, even customers who don't use assistive technologies, can upgrade their operating system for free after July 29, 2016.
Microsoft notes that it may end the extension offer at any point in time in the future, but has not decided yet whether to do so or not. The company promises however that it will make a public announcement before the offer ends.
It is likely that some customers who don't use assistive technologies will take Microsoft up on the offer. Since there is no need to provide proof, anyone may still upgrade to Windows 10 for free for as long as the offer is up and not pulled by Microsoft."
Still a cynical, suspicious old git
Seems the MS scumbags have resorted to suddenly invalidating some Windows 7 licenses just as the Win 10 offer expires. The very same licenses that validated just fine a few months ago!
That is not at all suspicious -not at all...
It's obviously impossible to find out exactly WHAT MS objects to, that causes validation to fail.
God how arrogant arseholery MS has become.
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