Microsoft's Windows 10 nagware goes FULL SCREEN in final push

As the Windows 10 free upgrade period draws to a close, Microsoft is stepping up its operating system's nagware to full-screen takeovers. The Redmond software giant confirmed today it will start showing dark blue screens urging people to install the latest version of Windows. The full-screen ads will pop up on Windows 7 and 8. …

[Steve Davies 3]

A final throw of the dice before

going full Subscription

https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/06/30/226257/upgradesubscriptionexe-file-in-preview-build-hints-at-windows-10-subscriptions

This is what I was predicting a year ago. Stop paying and lose access to your data (One of many options)

The move in this direction was obvious then so this should not be a surprise.

The MS Shills be soon be out in force to downvote this.

All I say, is come back in another year and see what is the reality of the situation then.

There are plenty of totally free alternatives you know. Ones that come with no strings like this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Pretty obvious they would be turning to a subscription model, probably why there's so many holdouts..

[bombastic bob]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"Pretty obvious they would be turning to a subscription model, probably why there's so many holdouts.."

ONE reason (and maybe a big one). OTHERS include, ( /me clears throat )

• The Adware
• The Spyware
• 2D FLUGLY (lack of 3D skeumorphic like 7)
• Removal of customization options
• "The Metro" in general
• FORCED updates
• Frequent 'High bandwidth' upgrade/update downloads
• Windows Logon and its anti-privacy EULA
• No clear performance improvements over 7
• Feature Removal (from those built into earlier versions of windows)
• The 'Start Thing' vs the 'Start Menu'
• Using customers for Q.A. testing (i.e. releasing UNSTABLE CRAP via 'updates')

A longer list is, of course, possible, but these are *MY* reasons, NOT including the subscription thing, which has yet to manifest itself.

[ABQ Sun]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

It would be suicide to retroactively go back and charge a subscription being Apple and Google do not charge for the base OS. The fact that Google is unifying Chrome OS with Android will put more pressure on MS then Apple IMO. So I think MS may want to charge a subscription but its won't likely happen for the OS. Rather they will continue to charge for their other services and continue to inject all the telemetry into the OS.

However, IMO W10 is a very nice OS once you rip out all the privacy junk, cortana, one drive etc.. and install with a local account.

[Boris the Cockroach]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

I dont think you were the only one predicting win10 as a subscription service

But who knows... IF win10 goes subscription, maybe then m$ could be hammered with a class action, especially since the free upgrade to win10 made no mention of this.....

[Captain DaFt]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"But who knows... IF win10 goes subscription, maybe then m$ could be hammered with a class action"

Nah, nah, Win 10 is touted as "The lasted Windows you'll ever buy", buy MS's own marketeers.

As soon as the kerfuffle settles down, there'll be new popups on Win 10 and Win 7 machines;

"Sign up now for NEW Win Cloud*!"

"The perpetually up to date Windows!"

"Only $19.99 a month!"

"[]Yes, at once!"

"[]Ask me again in 10 seconds."

*Or whatever dorky name Windows Marketing comes up with.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

>*Or whatever dorky name Windows Marketing comes up with.

Windows Coffin Edition Pro?

[Mpeler]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

It's not the cough that carries you off - it's the coffin they carry you off in...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Nah, nah, Win 10 is touted as "The lasted Windows you'll ever buy", by MS's own marketeers.

From the way they're going about it I'd say that is actually a surprisingly accurate statement, just not quite in the way intended..

I've never seen better advertising for OSX and Linux - even Windows Vista didn't do as much damage.

[Vince]

"Win 10 is touted as "The last Windows you'll ever buy"

"buy" being the operative word.

"Rent" however...

"Windows 10 is touted as the first windows you'll ultimately end up renting to keep using"

I'm sure they've watched how successful Adobe et al have been in getting people to pay every month for software they rarely get benefit of the updates of, and often don't use often enough to make the price worth it but still pay for...

That and it is working rather nicely for them already with Office 365... mugs.

[Richard Plinston]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

> especially since the free upgrade to win10 made no mention of this.....

What they actually said was:

"""This is more than a one-time upgrade: once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime of the device – at no additional charge."""

What was not explained was what the "supported lifetime of the device" meant. The device hardware is supported by the warranty. Once your warranty expires then it is no longer "at no additional charge".

Note that they did _not_ say: 'for the supported lifetime of the OS'.

[Rod 6]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Years ago, I put linux only farther's PC for a quiet life. I got fed up of questions about virus killers and subscriptions and him clicking on things he should not under windows (not to mention him phoning 'technical support' lines ). I did not really want to do it at the time because I thought it would be more hassle. Now, the only time I touch the box, is to upgrade it to the next release.

[aqk]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

Wow! M$ ! I haven't seen this cute little acronym since about 1994, when our company got rid of the last of our Macintosh weenies!

Golly, Dude - do you still refer to Bill Gates as the Antichrist? I bet you even have a ponytail!

[Suricou Raven]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

Microsoft worked hard to earn their insulting abbreviation. It's a reference to their long history of aggressive business methods.

[oldcoder]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

You shouldn't leave out the over-pricing, bate-and-switch software, cost of security failures, cost of propping it up with anti-virus software ...

[Preston Munchensonton]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

Microsoft worked hard to earn their insulting abbreviation. It's a reference to their long history of aggressive business methods.

If you weren't aware, Microsoft is a for-profit business, i.e. they intended to sell goods and services to earn profits from their customers. If this offends you, do the most important thing to force them out of business by stop buying their products. MS is still in business because people continue to buy their wares.

Personally, I'm in the "fuck off, thanks, I don't need Windows and Office" camp. But that doesn't mean that others can't and shouldn't find value in what MS sells. Good for them. You don't like it? Don't buy it and be happy. But don't criticize MS for trying to make money. Or do you live off the government teat so that you can just donate all your time for free to worthy causes? Pfft.

/endrant

[Zakhar]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

I both agree and disagree with you!

Agree about the "for-profit", and the only way to make them understand that you are displeased: stop buying their products at once! So the ones complaining and still buying: you had it coming.

Disagree: they fully deserve M$ with their aggressive and illegal methods. Yes illegal! You might not know, but in France "bundled sales" is illegal if you do NOT sell the parts of the bundles separately. And do you think M$ cares to respect this law, do you think the hardware vendors care too, and do you even thing governments care to have their laws abided... those latter are corrupted and paid, so you guess the answer.

So, as long as I cannot buy a PC without having to buy the "bundled" slurpware I don't want, I'll call them M$

That is plain and simple extortion, so they fully deserve it.

... but maybe I'll stop... maybe now it is going to be "free"... obviously only "free to buy" but you have to pay the monthly subscription! What I fear and even with that, they'll probably still extort you something like 1 year of subscription, even if you don't intend to use the crap.

[Pompous Git]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

So, as long as I cannot buy a PC without having to buy the "bundled" slurpware I don't want, I'll call them M$

That is plain and simple extortion, so they fully deserve it.

So you'd rather piss and moan, and tell lies than pick up the 'phone and ask the Dell sales rep (for example) and ask "How much for a model XYZ without Windows?". Some people are just too fucking stupid or lazy to wonder how MS manages to sell volume licenses if the purchaser has already been "forced" to purchase a Windows licence with every computer. FFS!

[tiggity]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

The issue teh poster was making about windows bundled on hardware is that your average home consumer (not vaguely tech El Reg reader), will just randomly order new PC (be it online, or more likely at some big name store e.g. PC World in UK).

In a UK PC World buying experience punter will not even be aware of different operating systems (unless sales person tried to sell them a mac & even then it will only be in terms of it's different but it still runs office OK), certainly on mention of Linux made to your average punter (and as an added bonus PC World will try & claim their warranties do not apply if you replace windows with Linux on PCs they sell)

So, for most non tech savvy punters, there is no easy way to get a new computer without it having Windows or Mac OS pre-installed.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Preston

"But don't criticize MS for trying to make money."

For me the problem here is that they're trying to make money by ripping me off. My PC came pre-installed with Vista Home Premium and I upgraded it myself to Windows 7 Professional. Ergo: I bought a Windows version which was said to be supported until around 2018. And here we are, I got 2 more years worth of support to go yet Microsoft seems more busy trying to get me to upgrade to Windows 10 than providing me what I paid for.

I don't mind Microsoft trying to make money, but I do expect them to live up to what they promised me: Windows 7 support until 2018/2019. And a hidden, forced, upgrade to Windows 10 does not fall into this category.

This is basically Microsoft telling me: "Well, you paid for support until 2018 but we're not going to give that to you, because we think you should now use Windows 10 instead!".

Like I said: that's not simply trying to make money, that's basically ripping people off by not providing them the services they paid you for. And I specifically use the term "ripping off" because unless you know what the heck you're doing then there's no way to stop the Windows 10 monstrosity from taking over your computer. Unintended, unwanted, so basically a rip off.

So personally I think people have every right to be upset here.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

M$ screwed over many competitors with questionable if not downright illegal business practices.

So let's keep the pretty accurate M$ moniker.

M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$ M$

[el_oscuro]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

M$ dose seem a bit dated now. Some bloke came up with a clever new one:

Micros~1

[cd / && rm -rf *]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

@aqk:

Oh, hello there "Good Guy". When did you escape from news://alt.windows7.general?

Anonymous troll is not anonymous.

[wayne 8]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

Is this your first ever visit to El Reg?

[Mpeler]

Re: A final throw of the M$ dice before?

And there's Paris - looking for your brain. No trace.

Looks in one ear, sees out the other.

Nice try (not) M$ troll.

Here's another one for you: Micro$haft. And Micro$ucks. And "The Borg" of Redmond.

Granted, M$ used to be OK, with TechNet, and MSDN, and (somewhat) listening to their users and developers. The Home Servers were nice, but then they borked those too, as they did SBS.

One company's motto is "Do no evil". It appears that M$'s is: "If greed is all you need".

Sorry, troll/fanbot, your "company" used to be OK. Until and unless it changes, it's M$. Tough nuggies.

[Wade Burchette]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"IF win10 goes subscription, maybe then m$ could be hammered with a class action, especially since the free upgrade to win10 made no mention of this....."

Two things. First, the terms of service that you agree to when you install Win10 specifically say you cannot sue Microsoft in countries that allow binding "neutral" arbitration. The US is one such country. So you cannot sue Microsoft over Win10 in the United States. You can sue if you do not agree to the terms.

Second, the terms also clearly state the product is licensed, not owned. What this means is that they can take away your license as they please. What will most likely happen is there will be an updated terms-of-service. Agree, or you will stop receiving all Windows updates. I doubt Microsoft would be so bold as to force you to agree or else you cannot use your computer. Since the product is licensed and not owned, they can change the terms anytime they want.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Two things. First, the terms of service that you agree to when you install Win10 specifically say you cannot sue Microsoft in countries that allow binding "neutral" arbitration. The US is one such country. So you cannot sue Microsoft over Win10 in the United States. You can sue if you do not agree to the terms.

Second, the terms also clearly state the product is licensed, not owned. What this means is that they can take away your license as they please. What will most likely happen is there will be an updated terms-of-service. Agree, or you will stop receiving all Windows updates. I doubt Microsoft would be so bold as to force you to agree or else you cannot use your computer. Since the product is licensed and not owned, they can change the terms anytime they want.

Glad I'm not in the US then, those terms would get bounced in the UK. As a matter of fact, I reckon there's enough margin in UK consumer laws to screw over Microsoft something solid, provided enough people file properly documented complaints. They may not be eligible for £10k, but consumer rights enforcement could become a rather interesting political play given Microsoft's remaining influence in Whitehall.

I'd pay to watch that..

[Mark 85]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

You're not alone in believing this nor for getting downvoted. I'm waiting to see if Win7 gets a retroactive EULA requiring subscription.. or maybe limiting it's usefulness unless the "service fee" is paid.

I'm already rocking Mint with Wine and VM for Win7 on the main PC at the house. The rest are in the wings. First sign of any thing like this, and poof... Linux magically appears.

[aqk]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

Great! I personally use Ubuntu myself.

As well as Win-10 (both standard and the "fast" insider preview).

But at the present, I would NEVER install Linux - either Ubuntu or Mint on my Aunt Lucy's PC. Her old desktop could just not take the excitement of those interminable problem fixes via a list of arcane and lengthy commands.

YOU love Linux and so do your 3 or 4 geeky friends. And so do I.

But about your mom and pop? Or your uncle Ebenezer?

Do you plan to upgrade their XP (or is it finally Win7?) with your all-powerful sweetheart version of Linux?

Ah, as a retired techie, how I miss those 3AM phone calls!

Now, you too can expect them too!

Good luck.

[Paul Crawford]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

But at the present, I would NEVER install Linux - either Ubuntu or Mint on my Aunt Lucy's PC. Her old desktop could just not take the excitement of those interminable problem fixes via a list of arcane and lengthy commands.

Quite the opposite, I have put Ubuntu on father's laptop and friends' home PCs and it gives me FAR less support trouble than Windows and the inevitable AV that still fails to stop infestations. Oh yes, and none of this in-your-face nagware or the privacy violations MS are now pushing having conveniently forgotten all about the "Scroogled" campaign.

[david bates]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I moved my uncle and my dad from Win XP to Mint Mate. I don't get support calls any more. It's an LTS version, and i use team viewer every now and again to run updates.

In the time Mint has been installed if have had to do at least one rebuild.

The one time there was a hardware failure i took the HD out of a Pentium 4 with an ATi card and put it into an Athlon machine with an nVidea card and it. Just. Worked.

So don't tell me about support calls coming off XP onto Linux.

[Number6]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I moved my uncle and my dad from Win XP to Mint Mate. I don't get support calls any more. It's an LTS version, and i use team viewer every now and again to run updates.

What's wrong with ssh? That's how I update my father's machine. The only time I need something more is if I have to troubleshoot a GUI program, but now he's learned the three or four things he needs his computer for, they're mostly well-behaved.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I moved my uncle and my dad from Win XP to Mint Mate. I don't get support calls any more.

Sorry to be the devil's advocate here, but that may possibly not be for the reason you think :).

[Uncle Slacky]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

> interminable problem fixes via a list of arcane and lengthy commands.

2001 called and wants its Linux FUD back.

[Adam 52]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

"2001 called and wants its Linux FUD back."

It's not all FUD though. I upgraded to the latest Ubuntu LTS last week. After the big mess I got into last time attemping to do two upgrades in one go I thought I'd go earlier this time.

Big mistake. I now have a PC that'll only do 640x480 and 800x600 (the gui offers more but they all give 800x600). I really was hoping all the driver and having to boot into low runlevels to fix X had died a death years ago but they're still there.

It's still not fixed. The various out-of-date and "try this, it worked for me" support sterotypes are still there.

Don't get me wrong, I like Linux but dismissing valid criticism as FUD means it won't get better.

[MonkeyCee]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I've gone off Ubuntu as the standard XP alternate, since it's seemed less "plug and play" in the last couple of years.

Give Mint a try, see if it's getting the same issues.

You'll never escape GFX driver crap, unless you're either running integrated GFX, or your vendor has been making an effort. ATI do better linux drivers than NVidia these days. Never thought I'd say that....

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

"2001 called and wants its Linux FUD back."

It's not all FUD though. I upgraded to the latest Ubuntu LTS last week. After the big mess I got into last time attemping to do two upgrades in one go I thought I'd go earlier this time.

Big mistake. I now have a PC that'll only do 640x480 and 800x600 (the gui offers more but they all give 800x600). I really was hoping all the driver and having to boot into low runlevels to fix X had died a death years ago but they're still there.

Try anything but Ubuntu. Sometimes I get the impression that Ubuntu wants to be the Windows Me of the packagers when even others that base themselves on Ubuntu seem to do better, like Mint.

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before @Adam 52

The question we need to know is whether you have some esoteric or maybe cutting edge graphics card, or are maybe trying to use the proprietary binary graphics driver from AMD or Nvidia on an older graphics card..

For new high end cards from both Nvidia and AMD, the proprietary Linux drivers often lag the availability of the cards by some months, and the open drivers may not support the newer hardware until some bright spark works out how the API has changed.

There are also some obscure cards that there may not be drivers for in the Linux repositories, but this is rare.

What is more annoying is that the proprietary drivers are dropping support for older cards. I was caught out when I upgraded an LTS release on a system with an Nvidia fx7800 onboard that had the proprietary Nividia drivers loaded. After upgrading, I suddenly was down to un-accelerated 800x600 256 colour (i.e. basic VESA) rather than the 32 bit colour 1280x1024 that I was expecting. This sounds similar to your situation. I've had similar problems with older AMD/ATI cards as well.

The new release of the proprietary Nvidia binary had silently dropped support for the older chipset, leading to the lowest-common denominator driver being used. Unfortunately, the main way of removing the binary driver, which is required to get the open source drivers configured correctly, is normally written using dpkg from the command line. It is also possible from Synaptic (which is no longer installed by default), but is rather more difficult from the Ubuntu Software Centre (which seems to decide that removing software is something that users should be dissuaded from doing).

Unless you actually desperately need them, I would nowadays always suggest that you use the open drivers, and if you do use the proprietary drivers, switch back to the open drivers before doing a dist-upgrade.

Of course, this is not Linux's fault (if Linux can actually have fault attributed to it). It actually shows up a fundamental support issue with the companies that produce PC hardware without a full commitment to Linux. This should even extend to the obsolete chipsets IMHO, because Linux is very often deployed on old kit. Companies should either fork their proprietary drivers and leave the old ones in the repositories so you can keep using the old drivers without having to hold them back (and don't get me started on this, it has huge problems), or open-source the drivers, or even just the full API for the cards they deem obsolete to allow the community to support the cards without having to reverse-engineer the chipsets.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

Give them Chrome. System problem? Just reboot and "powerwash". Persistent data? That's what Drive is for.

But seriously, I can't wait until M$ starts requiring a subscription fee for "extended" (beyond the mfr warranty expiration) update service. At that point I'll have an out when family and friends ask for computer help: "Oh no, you wouldn't want me to void your (paid) support, would you?" It's almost like Nadella is giving all us techies a free gift. We should be more thankful.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

@agk - it's obvious to anyone that's actually a Linux user t (note I said 'user', not 'expert' as I'm certainly not an expert) that you're either trolling or are hoplessly inept at following simple install instructions. Or you're trying to sell the moon on a stick when you install Linux (yes, of course I can get iTunes to work under Linux for you!') and setting both yourself and them up for disappointment.

I've not merely installed Linux on several friends PCs over the years, some of then have gone on to do installations themselves, not one of them being even as half-arsed tecchy as myself. And the number of support calls I've had in all those years for Linux can be counted on the fingers on one hand with fingers to spare. None of them involved me going to the command line - it was just a case of explaining how to find things (IIRC, how to use what was back then a somewhat user-unfriendly package manager to find a particular type of application; how to reconnect to the internet after a stray mouse-click had accidentally disconnected them, and how to get certain media types to play in Ubuntu waaay back).

Personally, if asked to set someone up with Linux, I first explain to them that it isn't the case that all software will run on all operating systems, and that if there is anything that they really really don't want to lose use of, they need to tell me about it first so I can see whether there's a suitable alternative or workaround. Either way I explain the options before doing anything else whatsoever.

I've installed Linux in a VM on Windows and Windows in a VM on Linux, to meet user needs. I;ve also advised at least one user than in the light of what they wanted, sorry, but they eitehr needed to stay Windows, buy another machine and put Linux on that, or consult an expert who might be able to give them what they'd like - for a fee (my services came free aside from the cost of a cuppa).

Whilst I CAN use the command line (as in, I'm not scared to do so) I hate doing so and it's been many years since I used it to do anything other than invoke get-iplayer or perform a timed shutdown because I've left my PC downloading something overnight and want it to close down afterward.

I have to use Windows at work. It's far less user-friendly and far more troublesome than the Linux I use at home. Your milage may vary. But it's blatantly untrue to claim that you have to use arcane command-line stuff to make Linux work, If you think that, then you're doing SOMEthing wrong, friend. (Unless you actually are a troll, of course (ooh, I see an earlier poster has spotted that you probably are!), in which case, there's the door)

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

@Esme - Users who I have switched to Linux do not harass me constantly with problems. Most of the issues I have see are set up issues that once solved stay solved. The only other major item I do is to update the distro periodically.

[Hans 1]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

@Esme

Same here, get my upvote, with one minor change:

>Personally, if asked to set someone up with Linux, I first explain to them that it isn't the case that all software will run on all operating systems, and that if there is anything that they really really don't want to lose use of, they need to tell me about it first so I can see whether there's a suitable alternative or workaround. Either way I explain the options before doing anything else whatsoever.

... at first, users would forget this or that app that they were not using often and call the odd week ... so now I look in Programs and Features to see what is installed ... mom and pop do not want to play GTA V ... Usually, VLC, LibreOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird, gimp, darktable with a nice little Debian (over the time lenny, squeeze, wheezy, now jessie), icedove and iceweasel I remove, too confusing, since they were already using Thunderbird and Firefox on Windows XP or 7 ...

My kids enjoy Minecraft on Linux, still waiting on EA to port The Sims to Linux ... the worst thing is, they use a wine-like runtime to port it to Mac OS X, so it is a matter of little changes here and there - BASTARDS!!! Yes, it works fine in wine, so I use that.

[MonkeyCee]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

You've been retired too long then mate :)

I've always got several thumb drives with either ubuntu or mint on them (mild preference for mint these days, but whatever). When a friend/relative/neighbor/classmate is having issues with a machine I'll get them to give it a trial, booting from the thumb drive.

Usually after a week of hearing nothing, I'll get hold of them, to be told that the computer is working fine thanks, and no need to do anything. So I'll install it (in a suitably impressive speedy fashion), take my drive back, and then it's even slightly faster.

Most don't even know there is a command line, they don't care. It opens email, it access the web pages they want, it's got something that opens most of the standard files they come across.

The main issues are printing and drivers, but in each of these cases (YMMV) the issue is not confined to Windows or Linux, and is often easiest to solve by spending a tenner on a new card, finding a work around, or in the case of printers, just binning it and helping them buy the right printer, rather than whatever bullshit inkjet is being pushed out this week. Most people DO NOT need an inkjet, a ~30 quid laser, essentially a HP LJ 4 with more modern guts, is fine for most things, and can be left turned off for weeks, fired up and print.

The last few printers I sourced have been Brother HL2130. Store had ~50 inkjets on display and two lasers, lasers practically hidden from view in the corner.

For myself, and my geeky friends, we run VMWare and whatever is needed for the job at hand. Single and dual booting is so 20th century dude :)

[David McCoy]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I've built 12 Linux Mint systems for clients since Windows 10 reared its head, I've moved another 20 from win 7/8/8.1/10 to it, including my father's win 7 system. I have had 2 hardware issues in that time, both printer related. Everything else just works. They keep on going like the energiser bunny.

[fijired2]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I put Ubuntu on my parents PC three years ago. Only call I've had since its for a faulty mouse.

[FuzzyWuzzys]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

"Great! I personally use Ubuntu myself.

But at the present, I would NEVER install Linux - either Ubuntu or Mint on my Aunt Lucy's PC. Her old desktop could just not take the excitement of those interminable problem fixes via a list of arcane and lengthy commands.

YOU love Linux and so do your 3 or 4 geeky friends. And so do I."

HELLO?! HELLO?! Are there you are! I'm sorry to ask but I think 1995 wants its Linux references back!

[Colin Critch]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

I have two old codgers on Linux and both have less issues than my windows users. You see, if you have never used a M$ OS there is nothing to relearn ( or to forget).

[Robert Moore]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

> But about your mom and pop? Or your uncle Ebenezer?

I put my 67 year old, VERY VERY nontechnical, mother on a Mint laptop.

My support calls fell from at least one a month to none after the first month.

There were a few calls the first month, asking "How do I do X?"

If all you are doing is browsing the web, some spreadsheets, and a little light word processing. Linux is SO much better than windows.

[Peter Gathercole]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

My wife wanted to stay with WinXP. I told her she couldn't, and built a Win7 machine for her, which she hates (she's such a techno-luddite, she wouldn't learn the XP->7 UI change). If she needed to use a PC, she reluctantly asked to borrow my Thinkpad (Ubuntu LTS), and asked me to start "Google" for her (Google is the Internet, as far as she is concerned).

When I replaced my Thinkpad (with another one, of course), she asked whether she could have my old one. As a final piece of maintenance work on that system, I put in an SSD and one of the XP skins on Gnome.

She is now happily using this Linux laptop daily for genealogy research, Whilst she knows it's not Windows XP, it works and looks pretty much as she expects. She even uses LibreOffice on occasion, and does not appear to miss MS software at all.

I check it on occasion (I now borrow it if I just need to look up something quickly), and install any updates, but she admits that even she could manage this if I didn't.

[Paul Barnard]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

Just buy them an iPad for Christmas. The most they will probably do is use a browser, email and Facebook. Pretty much all my non techy family members have gone that way and my support effort has completely disappeared.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

Actually I installed Ubuntu on my mother's and my aunt's pc, three years ago. No more emergency calls since then. Just some alerts due to Flash in the browser :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the Minty dice before

My grandparents have been using ubuntu for years now and don't even know it. It's wonderful not having to worry about those phone calls because the email they opened contained a link to some windows virus ridden website. They check their emails, get on facebook, use skype and interact with their digital media all without hassle or having to hassle me. It works great.

You should tell your uncle Ebenezer about it or better yet just do what I did and put that sweet software on there without telling him. He'll thank you buy by calling to tell you about funny crap your cousins did rather than stupid crap his computers doing. :)

[Bob Vistakin]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"You can choose to upgrade directly from the notification, dismiss the notification permanently, or choose to be reminded later."

"...Or sue us. Go on, we won't fight back - we know we fucked up. It's easy now in the small claims court because precedent has been set. You'll get $10k, which will easily sort you out with a much better Linux based system or a Mac, and then we'll be out of your face forever."

[MonkeyCee]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

It's not that cut and dried. IANAL, as you can tell the highly technical legal terms I use

The Windows 10 "upgrade" has to have:

- fucked up your machine and/or prevented you from using software that you relied on

- required rebuilding or replacing rather than a rollback

- have a demonstrable cost in both time and lost business

So get yer ducks in a line first, you'll need to document all the above, and have given some MS drones at least a couple of chances to fix it.

Although I do agree, small claims court is superb for dealing with large companies fucking you around. Since they can't send an actual lawyer to fight you, but Legal should have an eyeball of the case first, they will almost always come to the conclusion that paying what is owed, plus a lump sum that's under 6 figures is almost always worth it.

Oh, and if they lose, and still fuck around about paying you, you can start the bankruptcy filing for them. Which affects their credit rating (even for a 25k debt for a comapny making ~2mil annual profit on ~50mil turnover), and causes Legal and Manglement to start screaming at people until you get cut a cheque from petty cash or some slush budget, since there isn't a "we never planned on paying this contract" budget.

[Pookietoo]

Re: precedent has been set

ITYF precedent doesn't get set by the lower courts. And anyway I think you'll not easily replicate the circumstances that made up that particular case.

[Tree]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

What person invented Windows HATE(8)? Didn't he get fired? The mastermind behind Win10 needs the guillotine! Doesn't Satya Nadella mean "off with your head" in Sanskrit or some Indian language? Instead of the Sherlock Holmes Icon we really need one of this bloke to spice up our comments. The thumbs down icon does not bear a good resemblance.

This OS should only be used for doorbells or door locks and other things like that that are useful to have on the net so bad guys can hack into them and steal your stuff. Not only do they want to sell your private information, but they wish to charge you for it. Ha, ha, ha. Suckers.

[tony72]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

It's highly unlikely that they will go to any sort of direct subscription-only model with Windows 10, at least not for people that already have it. Changing the terms of a sale after the deal has been done almost certainly falls afoul of a law or two. If you sell something to someone, even for free, you can't just turn up a few months or years later and start asking them to pay more money for it. So I say when we come back in a year as you suggest, we will find that nobody will be forced to pay a subscription to use Windows 10 as we know it.

Now that's not to say they won't introduce a paid tier. They might bundle some of the existing subscription services; subscribe to Windows 10 Plus, get Office 365 lite, some OneDrive storage, Groove Music maybe. They could start introducing new features that you only get if you subscribe. Who knows.

And it's also not to say that they couldn't go subscription-only for new sales; as many have suggested, maybe you'll buy a PC with one year free Windows, after which you'll have to start paying or lose access to x, y, z features. However I find it unlikely that Windows would simply stop working if you didn't subscribe after the free period, that would just be too unpalatable; I'd certainly never buy a PC on those terms. Likely you would lose access to your cloud features that the subscription included, and be left with the basic OS, much like the Windows 10 of today.

[Mark 85]

@tony72 -- Re: A final throw of the dice before

You forgot to mention "ads".... the freebie people are getting ads. Maybe a pay for Win without ads is coming...

[IsJustabloke]

Re: @tony72 -- A final throw of the dice before

"Maybe a pay for Win without ads is coming..."

Yeah because no subscription service ever includes adverts as well....

[Bob Vistakin]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

@tony72

They could start introducing new features that you only get if you subscribe.

Like removing the ads the free users will be bombarded with at OS level, like even before you log in etc.

[wayne 8]

Re: HULU business model. M$$$$$

Hulu.

Three tiers.

Lowest - Free. Restricted content. Frequent commercial breaks.

Middle - $. Access to more content, Still has ads.

Highest - $$. Same content as Middle without ads.

Windows is devolving to the packaged cable TV business model.

Already there is a monthly subscription for Office.

They may have more product engineers, than code developers working on code, trying to determine how best to slice up the Windows Experience TM into monetized packages.

PS: Does the "Most Secure Windows Ever" really mean that much?

PPS:

Q: What is a large resource on planet Earth, that self buys the extraction equipment, self operates the extraction equipment, and queues up to be monetized?

A: Humans.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Let's hope Mexit goes better than Brexit.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"Stop paying and lose access to your data"

My data is stored on my hard drive. If MS manage to stop me accessing it until I pay them a fee then I will be informing the police.

Those who have punted data into the cloud? Well, they've probably already lost it. It's just that they don't realise that yet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Do you really think they would move to OS subscriptions? In consumer markets? I can see it in the enterprise space where Windows is bundled into your agreement (cancel your agreement, lose Windows), but in the consumer space? It seems like that would just kill Windows.

[Charles 9]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"It seems like that would just kill Windows."

How when they have such a captive market? Most of the software out there is Windows-only, especially the games.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"Most of the software out there is Windows-only, especially the games."

Windows 10 is by some distance the best performing OS to run them on. Even open GL stuff is generally a bit faster under Windows than under Linux, and stuff that's Direct-X 12 optimised is currently miles ahead...

[Roland6]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

Do you really think they would move to OS subscriptions? In consumer markets?

Yes!

It has been running for decades in the Enterprise market, where volume licence agreements are effectively an annual subscription.

In the consumer space, remember Windows 7 Starter edition and Office Starter? Which are intended to be bundled for free. Whilst Office Starter already includes advertising, Windows 7 Starter didn't. However, Apple have lead the way in modifying the OS to support advertising - even filing some patents, I don't doubt MS are going down the same path.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

FUTURE purchases will be subscription. Not the "free" version. How many times does this need to be stated? MS can't suffer the legal or consumer reaction unless they are truely suicidal in taking the option to make the free version subscription based.

However, you are correct that all and any other version of Windows or any future sale could all be subscription based. You claims though are like claiming that Windows 95 files will be held to ransom, because office 365 went subscription based.

(PS, downvote all you like, I'm not defending MS, just saying they are setting up a customer base to advertise to and exploit, not one to steal from.)

[Patrician]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

......."There are plenty of totally free alternatives you know. Ones that come with no strings like this....."

There are true, but none of them offer the user flexibility of use of their PC that running Windows OS's do; games are just one example but there are others.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"going full Subscription"

More likely Windows will be going completely free for consumers. Microsoft would make enough money out of the Windows Store and web adverts to justify this. Especially with increased competition from Apple at the top of the home / consumer desktop market and Google at the bottom.

Subscription for businesses is already effectively possible under their enterprise licensing options.

[Pompous Git]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

More likely Windows will be going completely free for consumers.

Where in the EULA does it say MS will be paying for Internet access? MS managed to steal ~30GB of my bandwidth before I installed Linux Mint and so far there's no cheque in the mail.

[azaks]

Re: A final throw of the dice before

"A file named "UpgradeSubscription.exe" is found buried in the System32 folder of Windows 10 build 14376, alongside 590 other .exe files."

A HA! A smoking gun if ever there was one! Almost as obvious as the NSA key!

The bigger question: if in a years time you don't have to pay a subscription or lose access to your data, will you be big enough to admit to being a shameless, whiny, OSS fanboy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Advantages to windows 10 ? I haven't found any. There is a new version of linux mint out, absolutely trounces windows 10. More secure, looks better, rock stable, more configurable and doesn't spy on me.

[d3vy]

It had better options for scaling different displays to different %.

That was my biggest reason for upgrade.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Advantages to Windows 10

Over 8.1? The Metro crap is much easier to avoid. Other than that, I'll grant that it isn't at all obvious what's changed.

Over 7? The support for modern hardware is better. USB device support is noticeably less buggy, in my experience, though USB3 still needs work by somebody (either MS or the hardware vendors). Conversely, support for non-modern hardware might be patchy because of evil-or-incompetent driver vendors.

Over either? I don't personally believe that MS are serious about security patches on anything that they call a "legacy OS". Their almost-insane attempts to push 10 on everyone suggests active hostility to the idea of supporting these systems in future. 7 is out of mainstream support and 8.0 is already officially dead. (I suppose they might retro-fit the spyware at some point, if they haven't already done so...)

Over Linux Mint? It does a vastly better job than WINE of running crappy old Win32 software. You may not have any. Many domestic users don't or could find reasonable Linux alternatives. (I'm one such.) But if you do, good luck running it on WINE (https://appdb.winehq.org/), good luck trying to persuade the authors that they have any support obligations on that platform, and especially good luck if it is an in-house "app" and you aren't the manager of the software team that "developed" it.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Advantages to Windows 10

"Over 7? The support for modern hardware is better. "

That's no advantage for an existing W7 system on its existing H/W nor on a VM..

In general you have a tiered arrangement for dealing with legacy Windows applications when to Linux or BSD for general use:

Native applications to replace those on WIndows.

Windows applications on Wine.

Windows application in a VM running an older version of Windows (the limited amount of Windows-specific stuff I very occasionally need run better on 2K than 7) which is kept off-net if possible,

Windows applications running on well-isolated H/W where there are unavoidable legacy H/W requirements such as talking to your £2m MRI scanner.

[Michael H.F. Wilkinson]

Re: Advantages to Windows 10

The only reason this laptop still runs a windows version (8.1 + GWX Control Panel to keep Win 10 out) is that FireCapture (astro-imaging software) and AutoStakkert! 2.0 are windows only. The latter runs with varying degrees of success under WINE, but doing capture from planetary cameras under WINE seems risky. The Linux alternative oaCapture is not quite as mature, so I will work with windows until I find a Linux software suite that lets me mae these kinds of images

[cd / && rm -rf *]

There is a new version of linux mint out, absolutely trounces windows 10

Aye.

Mint 18 Mate boots from cold to usable desktop in 4 sec on a low-end Core i3 with cheapy SSD here. Try that with Win10.

[Danny 14]

The new minecraft education (non java version) is windows 10 only. Since we do actually use minecraft (ICT 6th form code mods and run the server for their A level projects) then i have generated a windows 10 image (enterprise so all the nags removed). Problem is, LTSB isnt good enough as you need the store core (even if disabled by GPO)to be present, it is absent in LTSB. Pity.

[Patrician]

.............."Advantages to windows 10 ?"

I can install and run Fallout 4, Witcher 3, Forza Apex Beta, Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous, Photoshop (any version), Outlook, etc.

The above are all advantages of running a Windows OS; you may not use these programs and, therefor, Linux is a viable alternative and it's great that some can stick the finger to Microsoft, (although I will say support for new hardware is also much slower for Linux as opposed to Windows, the Nvidia 1080 cards for instance) but for many users, myself included, it just isn't an option. It's an option for *some* PC users but nobody can true fully say anything more than that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blue Screen of Despair

Nice.

[Bob Vistakin]

Re: Blue Screen of Despair

I'd go for BSE - Blue Screen of Extortion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Blue Screen of Despair

In case there are points awarded for keeping the acronym intact:

Blue Screen of Dickmove

[fung0]

Re: Blue Screen of Despair

Actually, it should be Blue Screen of Desperation.

[Ropewash]

Over 300 million people...

So 30% of their stated target then. Last time I got 30% in something I had to repeat the grade.

[The Original Steve]

Re: Over 300 million people...

Believe it's 1 Billion within 3 years of release.

So 30% of the way there after 30% of the time.

[Ropewash]

Re: Over 300 million people...

Fair enough.

If they are going to count a Win10 machine that gets replaced/reinstalled as being two machines that is.

In that case all they gotta do is make 1 million cheapo tablets and re-format them 1000 times each.

Let's see 1 billion ACTIVE machines before declaring a resounding victory.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Over 300 million people...

If they are going to count a Win10 machine that gets replaced/reinstalled as being two machines that is.

In that case all they gotta do is make 1 million cheapo tablets and re-format them 1000 times each.

Ah, finally found a reason for the posh Surface cockup :).

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Over 300 million people...

"So 30% of the way there after 30% of the time."

Yeahbut, that's 30% free installs in 30% of the time. You think they can keep that rate up when it's £100 a pop or whatever the price will be??

The upgrade rate is gonna go off a cliff faster then the £ on Brexit results day.

[The Original Steve]

Re: Over 300 million people...

True, I'd imagine consumer activations will drop significantly after the free upgrade stops. Guess it will go to the same sort of trend that previous relases have had.

Although traditionally businesses don't normally kick off large deployments for at least a year after RTM, so I'd guess business deployments will start to increase after the August update.

(P.S. Seriously, downvoted for clarifying what the vendor said?! Christ, I was hardly praising it - just repeated what I've read from other MS annoucements about their target.)

[fung0]

Re: Over 300 million people...

The Original Steve: "So 30% of the way there after 30% of the time."

Actually, at BUILD before the launch they were showing slides saying 1 billion in 1 year. Then it quietly slid to 2 years. Now it's become 2-3 years. Google (or Bing) your way back through their announcements - the ones they haven't deleted or retconned.

Either way, Android will be at 2 billion soon, making Microsoft's 350 million look like a dismal failure. Especially with the new Android N crowding in on Windows-like functionality. Not that I'm an Android fan, especially - but this is what's driving Microsoft's desperation.

[inmypjs]

Re: Over 300 million people...

Which at a modest $50 a pop means this free Windows 10 upgrade has cost Microsoft $15 billion.

As I have said before how stupid do you have to be to think Microsoft gave away $15 billion worth of Win 10 upgrades because they no longer want to make money?

Win 10 is the last and one way or another most expensive windows ever.

Windows 10 the OS that just keeps on taking.......

liberties before you even install it, privacy after you install it, and soon money.

[Richard Plinston]

Re: Over 300 million people...

> Which at a modest $50 a pop means ...

Actually, approx 230 million of that 300 million is one year's sales of new computers with OEM Windows 10 pre-installed (for which Microsoft was paid).

We have no information on the number that have overwritten Windows 10 with something else.

[inmypjs]

Re: Over 300 million people...

"Actually, approx 230 million of that 300 million is one year's sales of new computers with OEM Windows"

Did you read the blue screen of desperation?

"Over 300 million people have upgraded".

Is that a lie?

[fung0]

Re: Over 300 million people...

"Over 300 million people have upgraded".

Is that a lie?

If it's not an exaggeration of some sort, Microsoft's marketers aren't earning their pay.

'Windows 10 installs not including new system sales' would be an interesting metric to have. So would the reduction in number of active Windows 7 systems - since that's one of Microsoft's primary goals.

[Richard Plinston]

Re: Over 300 million people...

> "Over 300 million people have upgraded". Is that a lie?

It doesn't need to be a lie, it is just that many have done so by upgrading their hardware as well.

What Microsoft have claimed elsewhere is that 300 million are running Windows 10. It all those were 'upgrades' in situ from Win7 or 8 then they would be claiming the 500 million are running Win10.

[Suricou Raven]

Re: Over 300 million people...

This is a case where a giveaway is certainly not a lost sale. How many home users actually pay for Windows on it's own? They all, almost without exception, get it supplied with their new computer via OEM license. Only businesses and OEMs buy windows.

[Pompous Git]

Re: Over 300 million people...

They all, almost without exception, get it supplied with their new computer via OEM license. Only businesses and OEMs buy windows.

You forgot about pompous gits ;-)

The Git retired from the industry in 2000 and purchased four OEM w7 licenses since his MSDN subscription lapsed. Hint: Macbooks don't come with Windows, nor do machines that you build for yourself.

[Mage]

Windows 10 has its benefits

Really?

Only for Microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

yuck!

its like someone flicking their snot all over you

[bombastic bob]

"Microsoft Chutzpah" - the application

Complete with it's "The Metro"-style TAKEOVER of your ENTIRE SCREEN, and the 2D FLUGLY (flat/ugly) look, reminding you of *EXACTLY* *WHY* you do *NOT* want to DOWNgrade to "Win-10-nic".

It EPITOMIZES exactly why so MANY of us REFUSE their "offer".

[Turgut Kalfaoglu]

I found out that Linux Fedora 24 is far better than any windows I tried.

Hence, I won't be "downgrading" to windows 10.

[N2]

Just like that annoying paperclip

Hello, it looks like you're using your computer?

Would you like me to fuck it all up for you?

[bombastic bob]

Re: Just like that annoying paperclip

*BRILLIANT* (you, sir, deserve our applause). 10 thumbs up for that one (but I could only vote 1).

[hellwig]

Games

Games are the only reason I still use Windows at home (yes yes, I know "some" games support Linux, but not the majority of my vast Steam library). Nothing else I do with my personal computer requires anything Windows specific.

If Microsoft ever manages to destroy that single advantage they have over other OSes, say, by mandating UWA somehow, it will be the end for me.

[Mikey]

Re: Games

Can't understand why you've got a downvote for that, because it's pretty much the reason I'm still with windows too, being mostly a gamer. CBA with Win10 until it's mandatory for whatever, and everything works fine as is.

I COULD use Linux, and I COULD bugger about with the whole WINE thing, but in doing so, I'll never get back the time spent faffing about making it all work the way it does already. The big problem I have is that, while yes it's free and all, Linux doesn't actually give me any advantages in my usage case. If anything, it'll cause more headaches than it would purportedly solve. Just saying that is going to get me downvoted, but to hell with it. Currently everything works, why mess with it?

[Charles 9]

Re: Games

Plus what happens when DirectX 12 comes along, which is exclusive to Windows 10? We're pretty much stuck with it, especially when the games we want most aren't on consoles (which I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole anyways).

[Updraft102]

Re: Games

"Plus what happens when DirectX 12 comes along, which is exclusive to Windows 10?"

Easy-- we reject it.

Those games that only use DX12 have excluded me from their market, but the rest can be set to use DX11-- and if you're using Nvidia hardware, as most gamers are, there's no benefit to using DX12 in any of the benchmarks to date.

[Charles 9]

Re: Games

I bet that'll change over time (ATI gets a BIG boost here, and at least nVidia's numbers aren't worse; they can only improve from here), unless you're willing to abandon gaming going forward rather than install Windows 10 when more and more of the headliners use DX12 (which unlike 11 improves performance) and not Vulkan. Look, not even Valve can convince many of the headliners to adopt Vulkan and take their titles to Linux, Bethesda (Fallout 4) has sworn it off because the environment's too inconsistent for them.

If we REALLY wanna see serious Linux gaming, companies like Valve need to pony up big time. I'm just not seeing that, though.

[Kris Sweeney]

Re: Games

I agree, W10/DX12 will be rejected from my house and every computer that i support until there is no choice but submit but I hope and pray W10 will follow Vista (which i actually feel is a vast improvement over 10 which is the first time I have ever considered Vista an improvement).

I play games to relax and also use my computer for work, why on earth would i hobble my computer and make the rest of the time i am using it worse, all to run some new game when there are hundreds of existing games i have yet to play that look incredible and are coming down in price?

I'd rather go back to using a Vic 20 without expansion pack than using Windows 10, alright that might be a little exaggerated but every time i see W10 ask myself how they managed to screw it up so badly.

[TheVogon]

Re: Games

"Plus what happens when DirectX 12 comes along, which is exclusive to Windows 10?"

It's already been here for quite some time now. Hitman, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Ashes of the Singularity, and Gears of War were some of the first DX12 games, and it's also been rolled out to the Xbox One - so many games are being written with DX12 as the native target.

Vulcan will be an afterthought for most gamers - DX12 is the primary requirement for the foreseeable future.

"All your games so far run on Windows 7. But if Microsoft makes any headway with DirectX 12, you'll soon be forced to install Windows 10."

There are already an increasing number of Windows 10 only games. See http://www.cinemablend.com/games/See-What-Games-Exclusive-Xbox-One-Windows-10-Year-109267.html

[Anonymous Coward]

@hellwig - Re: Games

Poor you! You're doomed then!

[Wade Burchette]

Re: Games

Let us hope Vulkan is more popular than DirectX 12.

[Charles 9]

Re: Games

Given the history of OpenGL, and the fact DX12 provides a two-fer (WIndows AND Xbox One, the PS4 IIRC uses a custom library not affiliated with Vulkan), I doubt it. OpenGL couldn't overtake DirectX then. I don't think they'll do it now, especially given how long Valve's been trying to push Linux gaming to try to push Microsoft off the pinnacle...without success (in fact, several developers have sworn off Linux development due to difficulties).

[fung0]

Re: Games

CHarles 9: "Given the history of OpenGL, and the fact DX12 provides a two-fer (WIndows AND Xbox One, the PS4 IIRC uses a custom library not affiliated with Vulkan), I doubt it. OpenGL couldn't overtake DirectX then. I don't think they'll do it now, especially given how long Valve's been trying to push Linux gaming to try to push Microsoft off the pinnacle...without success (in fact, several developers have sworn off Linux development due to difficulties)."

This is a very superficial view.

* Adding Xbox One to Windows 10 still doesn't give you anywhere near as big a market as adding Windows 7 to Windows 10. Then throwing in Linux (including SteamOS) and Android.

* Xbox One is currently getting killed in the console market, largely because Microsoft keeps promoting it with 'features' - like media support, or Windows 10 compatibility - that have nothing to do with gaming. I doubt there's anything that will let it catch up with the PS4 at this point.

* As I've noted earlier, even after Windows 10 has been a year on the market, there are still only a tiny number of DirectX 12 games. Time was, Microsoft would launch a new version of DirectX with some great showcase titles day one. Now, we're seeing no major support at all. This leads me to wonder if developers haven't been holding back, waiting to see how technically viable Vulkan will be, given its obvious market advantages over DirectX. (I haven't head about developers swearing off Linux, but there are always "difficulties.")

* Valve has not been pushing Linux much longer than Microsoft has been pushing Windows 10. They've already vastly increased the base of Linux games, helped promote the rise of Vulkan, and pushed hardware companies to improve their Linux driver support. They've also encouraged a lot of gamers, like me, to try Linux, and to discover how great it feels to be free of Microsoft's eternal BS.

* Linux is already a vastly superior platform for everything but games. There's none of Microsoft's obfuscation and DRM to make troubleshooting a hellish process. No annoying attempts at lock-in, with non-standard file formats or UI alterations (the Ribbon, Metro, Charms, etc.) or cloud services. No advertising. Given the privacy concerns in Windows - which Microsoft's closed-source approach cannot fully allay - many governments are looking at a total shift to Linux. Businesses are supporting Windows based mostly on momentum, but that could change any time, given that Microsoft is only going to double down on its current ruinous strategy.

[fung0]

Re: Games

All your games so far run on Windows 7. But if Microsoft makes any headway with DirectX 12, you'll soon be forced to install Windows 10.

Fortunately, Vulkan is coming up very strongly as a superior alternative to DX12. The dearth of DX12 games - even a full year after the release of Windows 10 - gives me a great deal of hope. I'm not eager to change my working OS (yet again), but the way Microsoft is behaving, we need to have that option wide open.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Games

Don't want to rain on your parade, but you will soon see a massive uptake in DX12 games.

Unity is due to release build 5.4 this month, and it comes with DX12 support. Vulkan support is still only at the investigation stage. Cryengine is in the same position currently, although they are making slightly more noises about Vulkan support..

UE4 does support both DX12 and Vulkan,

[Ropewash]

MinWin.

Anyone else remember this idea?

It was floated around Redmond in the pre-vista days iirc that they could produce a modular OS that let users start with the core components and build up in the way they wanted to from there. (sound familiar?)

I'd have bought that in a heartbeat.

Win10 I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole, no matter how large the adverts get. It saddens me that game devs seem to want to line up behind DX12 but there's no way I'm installing that crapwagon OS just to game on.

Hell, they could've gone the MinWin route and put out micro-payment modules for their good ideas (shit like Cortana could've been freeware) and I'd have paid for DirectX as they brought out new iterations.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: MinWin.

"It was floated around Redmond in the pre-vista days iirc that they could produce a modular OS that let users start with the core components and build up in the way they wanted to from there. (sound familiar?)"

It wouldn't work. Not once the marketeers and accountants got their hands on it. All those cheap, user selectable modules and upgrades would only be available in "packages" with all the most popular ones only available in separate packages that contain all the crap you don't really want. Like Cable TV packages.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: MinWin.

I think it has happened, twice: WinPE and Server Core.

Oh, sorry, you meant as an option for normal customers. Well, where's the money in that? Worse, by cleanly separating a minimalist core from packages that run on it, they would have spent time and money simplifying the task of the WINE developers.

[FatCJ]

Re: MinWin.

"Anyone else remember this idea?

It was floated around Redmond in the pre-vista days iirc that they could produce a modular OS that let users start with the core components and build up in the way they wanted to from there. (sound familiar?)"

Yep. Sounds familiar. You're describing Windows Embedded 7 Standard. Lets you create anything from a bare minimum OS without a GUI at ~400MB to a (mostly) full blown Windows 7 Ultimate equivalent, ouf of which you can still rip parts out that you don't want entirely (for example things like internet explorer, WinSxS support, windows defender (or the entire security center including windows update functionality), the entire network stack (for whatever reason), and tons of other bits)

Oh and did I mention that it also supports various write filters for NAND-Flash based media and a bootable USB stack (= booting windows from removable media like SD-Cards, USB HDDs etc.)...?

I'm running WES7 on my laptop which I take with me on service visits. Why? Simply because it works the way *I* want it to, doesn't contain features I never use and doesn't bug me with any of that Win10 "Upgrade" nag-/malware (simply because there is no "upgrade" path to Win10 for embedded editions :D)

PS: there's no windows activation like on "normal" windows editions either. The key used to install it decides wether it's a 180 day trial or a full version. No online activation or needing to re-activate due to hardware changes or anything like that.

[djstardust]

Updates off

I have several Windows 7 & 8.1 machines and every one has updates disabled.

Not something I really want to do from a security perspective but Microsoft have forced this on me.

They are my computers for me to do with what I want .... not MS to force crap and system changes disguised as critical updates.

[Ropewash]

Re: Updates off

Same here.

I'm just praying that August allows security only patching again in a way that doesn't try to slip something Win10'ish into my backdoor.

Sorry Microsoft, I just don't go that way.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Updates off

I have several Windows 7 & 8.1 machines and every one has updates disabled.

Seems a bit of an overreaction. You can vet updates before installing them, and...

I'm just praying that August allows security only patching again in a way that doesn't try to slip something Win10'ish into my backdoor.

Which is what it does already when the "Give me recommended updates the same way I receive important updates" option is unchecked. Still pays to check, mind.

[IT Poser]

Re: Updates off

While I could spend the time vetting each update I just dual boot. Windows 7 is almost exclusively offline and so hardly ever used. Mint works for all of my current online needs and takes far less work.

Just thinking about the updates I need for 7 makes me wonder if I'll ever go back.

[aqk]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

Fine. Let's discuss in 2 or 3 years.

Will you still be running Win7? Or will you, like all the boastful lads here, have migrated to some flavour of Linux?

I bet that 5 or 6 years ago you swore you'd never, NEVER upgrade from XP (Or was it Win2000?) to this horrible new Win-7.

Com'n now. Tell the truth!

I have records of all the laddies here that swore they WOULD NEVER upgrade to Win-7. Wanna see them?

[arctic_haze]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

I plan my next computer to be Linux with a virtual Windows XP for some old software I have. Somehow everything I use every day is available in Linux (GCC, R Language, LibreOffice, Firefox to name only the most important examples).

[Colin 27]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

Been doing this for years now. Never looked back. I can't remember the last time I span up the *only* Windows VM I have.

Just need to wean myself of VMWare..... :)

Crack on - you won't regret it!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

@aqk

Do you work for Micro$hit (there - happy??), you sure come across like a fanboi, even after claiming to run Ubuntu.

XP v Win7 - I run both, XP is easier to fix when something goes wrong in most cases, although in a few areas Win7 manages to do a better job (networking mostly).

I only switched away from XP on my main PC last year, when RAM upgrades werent supported by the OS; it is a pity they did such a poor job with XP64, or I would probably not have upgraded to Win7 at all.

I also run Ubuntu, but after 21 years of Windows, it is a steep learning curve, I dont have the time or energy I did before getting ill, and I have tried and failed to get various emulators to run my favourite Windows games, so I tend to revert to this Win7 box for most of the day, and a XP netbook or Android mobile when abroad.

The netbook might be huge, old and slow compared to a modern handset, but it is more FLEXIBLE when it comes to doing "stuff", and despite the scare stories, has never been compromised.

Looking ahead, Micro$hit say Win10 is the last OS; for them it may be; I predict the markets will turn on them within 12 months - when it is obvious the Win10 push has failed, and the share price will crash.

How long before they are featured on the "Death Watch"??

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

Try MX-15 linux. It has great Virtual Box support. I was just looking at a couple of other distros in VMs. I haven't tried to run Windows in a VM on MX-15. I may still have an XP or Win2000 dvd lying around. I should see if I can did one up and try it. Give your VM enough RAM and a couple of cores and Windows apps and maybe even games could work alright.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

@aqk

You're quite the entertainer.

I'm one who stuck to XP until Win7 came around (Vista done right) and used Win7 from beta.

Vista is a different story - I reckon Vista finally became usable with SP2 (and high-end hardware to run it on).

When Win8 came out I took advantage of the £15 upgrade offer on my XP machine, but found that Linux Mint was a sanity-preserving option. It just worked.

I used W10 at work earlier this year - meh. It's clear that Apple is now the best option for my non-technical friends.

[James O'Shea]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

"I have records of all the laddies here that swore they WOULD NEVER upgrade to Win-7. Wanna see them?"

Trot 'em out. This I _gotta_ see.

[frank ly]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

"I have records of all the laddies here that swore they WOULD NEVER upgrade to Win-7. Wanna see them?"

You've been storing our comments and data mining them for a long time. Is your real name Microgoog Facetwit? If you show them to us, will targeted adverts be included?

[Ropewash]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

Yeah.

I've already been using Linux in various flavours as my daily driver for about 18 years now.

Windows was kept for games and is still kept for some games. You're right, I did move off XP... About 3 years after 7 had been released, as hardware caught up to it's demands and the system was patched enough. Haven't moved past 7 since 8.1 was only really good on the surface, not on desktop. So far games support 7 still, but it'll taper off soon and 10 will be the only option... Except I'm NOT running a system that needs router-level blocking to stop it from spying on me. I'm NOT running a system where the vendor determines when I do updates. I'm just NOT running that system.

Xp didn't spy on me. Win7 did not decide to update right in the middle of a game session with no warning or way to turn it off. 8.1 did not report every single thing I typed and wrote to "make my experience better". (well, it would have if I let it update those win10 bits in, but I didn't.)

Games just are not worth the price.

[Pompous Git]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

Com'n now. Tell the truth!

I have records of all the laddies here that swore they WOULD NEVER upgrade to Win-7. Wanna see them?

ROFL! Sounds like a now deceased Merkin friend who was never going to have a telephone, or colour TV set.Have an upvote :-)

[DropBear]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

"ROFL! Sounds like a now deceased Merkin friend who was never going to have a telephone, or colour TV set."

So, essentially, you're calling the rest of us hypocrites? Tell me then, were you really "rolling on the floor" writing that...?

[Pompous Git]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

So, essentially, you're calling the rest of us hypocrites? Tell me then, were you really "rolling on the floor" writing that...?

If the cap fits...

Good job I didn't type ROFLMAO as that would presumably have you calling me a liar because my arse remained where it usually is.

[Updraft102]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

It's not really boasting to say that one has migrated to Linux. It's very easy to do, and it's free-- what is the point of boasting about things that are easy?

Yeah, I am one of them. Been with MS since 1990 with MS-DOS and Windows 3.0, but 10 is the final straw. I started the migration to Linux (Mint Cinnamon) a couple of weeks ago. I still have 7 set as dual boot, so I can take my time migrating everything over the course of the next 3.5 years, but already I spend most of my time in Linux now. I'm using it now to post this message!

I was never one of the ones who said I would never upgrade from XP. No one was trying to force me to, so it simply never became an issue. I kept using XP without thinking of doing any different until XP no longer served my needs adequately-- I'd outgrown 4GB of RAM, so it was time for something 64-bit, and I decided to give Windows 7 a try.

This was only three or so years ago, though. Why would I give 7 up now? The paint's hardly dry on the installation as it is!

I don't know what I'll be running in a few years, but it won't be 10 if it bears more than a passing resemblance to 10 right now. Even if MS fixes all of the issues I have with 10, I doubt I will ever use it, as I've already seen how little I need MS.

I'll probably still have 7 on my machines in case I need it right up to the end of support date, and maybe beyond it. Using Linux as the general-purpose OS means that Windows 7's lack of security updates won't be as much of an issue, as the riskiest stuff (like browsing) will be done on Linux. For gaming purposes, I can have the Linux installation spoof the NIC's MAC ID, so there will be a separate Windows and Linux MAC on the same PC, so I can have my router restrict the Windows (original) MAC to only preapproved, trusted URLs.

[OtotheJ]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

I get the feeling that many of those posting here haven't actually tried Windows 10, preferring the Hair Shirt of Linux and the badge of credibility it bestows upon its users.

Like a previous poster had with Mint, I too have seen impressive cold boot to working times on older hardware with Windows 10.

I've upgraded friends and family machines to Windows 10 and like another previous poster with Linux, I also haven't had any support calls. I'm discounting my mother who can't cope with her browser window minimised down.

I agree that a Linux installation is fine for most basic tasks but my experience is that once you need anything else, you're into the word of being trolled on Linux forums because you don't know as much as you should.

If Linux is ever going to be a serious alternative to Windows on the desktop, those developing it need to fundamentally understand that they are not simply making it for use by their own.

[James O'Shea]

Re: Updates off - Rock on

"I get the feeling that many of those posting here haven't actually tried Windows 10, preferring the Hair Shirt of Linux and the badge of credibility it bestows upon its users."

I use Win10 on a daily basis. It is faster and easier to use than Win7, on the same hardware. I've posted that Win10 is faster than Win7 on several occasions, and have been heavily downvoted each time. This does not change the simple fact that it is, indeed, faster than Win7 on the same hardware.

The hardware in question is an Asus S53 laptop, quad core i7, 8 GB RAM, 1TB hard drive with a Win 7 and a Win 10 partition. There are some things which I must do on a semi-regular basis which require me to boot into Win7. The difference in speed is noticeable. No, I can't run Linux, any variety of it, some apps and certain hardware (certain printers) which are required for work are not supported in any Linux distro and probably never will be, given that most of the apps are either very old or proprietary to the company or both, and at least one printer os over a decade old so if it ain't supported by this time it never will be.

Frankly, I'm about ready to get a Mac laptop when next Apple updates their hardware and to stick Win 7 and Win 10 VMs on it using Parallels or VMWare. No, nor Virtual Box on Mac. Too buggy, I need the VMs to work reliably, this is for actually making my living. No, I will not be trying to run WINE or Virtual Box on Linux. I _know_ that WINE won't work with certain items, and I trust VB on Linux even less than I do VB on OS X.

I would still like to see that list of 'laddies' who were Win7 refuseniks but now are cuddled up to Win 7 instead of big bad Win10.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Updates off

I also have several Windows 7 machines. I let them patch every month. I haven't been forced to upgrade any of them to 10.

I am prepared to believe that other users have had different experiences, but my own experience is that I ticked the "No thanks" box about 11 months ago and haven't been bothered since.

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that MS is a US company then this is probably an attempt to avoid the inevitable "why didn't you tell us, I'm so upset I need $10000 damages" lawsuits that will follow when people discover (or are told by lawyers) that they've missed the chance for a free upgrade.

[Anonymous Coward]

It only happens if you install a particular update that appeared for me today - possibly marked "Important". Didn't note the KB number - just saw the description with that big blue screen and promptly hit "hide".

Hopefully none of my users will install it - they are all aware now that anything other than a "security" update is not safe.

Downloaded Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon yesterday and created the install DVDs to try on one of the spare laptops. Time to prepare the belt and braces in case W7 gets compromised before 2020.

It would be a shame to lose Pegasus mail which has been the mainstay since my first foray onto the internet in about 1996. Too much to expect there to ever be a Linux version. Will keep an offline XP system alive to see my email archives. That will also handle any Paintshop Pro 7 work.

Unfortunately my major Windows development relies on Excel 2010 VBA. This week I discovered that only a handful of people now use my weekly results - so porting it to Linux and Free/LibreOffice is not a necessity.

[Uncle Slacky]

Wine to the rescue!

Pegasus should work under Wine:

https://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iAppId=284

and I know from experience that Excel 2010 can be installed under Wine (via PlayonLinux) too:

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=22304

Paint Shop Pro 7 should work as well (I use v4):

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=1405

BTW, Mint 18 is out now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

"Pegasus should work under Wine:"

Thanks for that - it had not occurred to me. Linux has always been a project that has never reached the top of my "need to do" list before. The day job was always Windows - so home was too.

Not sure my Excel 2010 VBA application will work under Wine as it interacts with Selenium and Firefox. I need to do some reading to understand exactly what environment Wine provides. I did some system development work on a VM O/S back in the 1970s - but have never needed to use one since.

The official Linux Mint site only offered me 17.3 yesterday - will go looking.

[frank ly]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

"The official Linux Mint site only offered me 17.3 yesterday - will go looking."

You must have just missed it, LM 18 (stable) was very recently available on Linuxmint.com. Don't worry about the dark colour scheme, you can change it to something less modern and then customise it.

You might prefer the MATE desktop which is more 'traditional' than Cinnamon.

[Updraft102]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

I don't know how MATE's any more traditional than Cinnamon. Might as well try them all on Live CD/DVD/USB and see; I prefer Cinnamon to MATE,

[MonkeyCee]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

"The day job was always Windows "

Just a personal note I've found using Linux tools, especially bootable devices, to save me massive amounts of time in supporting Windows only environments, or walk-in solo users.

For cleaning malware off machines it's almost always Hirem's boot, with whatever updates and additions you want to add. For recovering data, disk imaging and resetting passwords, a bootable USB with Mint is enough.

Apart from some very low level data recovery tools, I haven't used a DVD for some years now. All techs should have their awesome little USB stick of Doom :D

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

Paint Shop Pro *7*? Are you kidding? Or that's just the last version you found on your favourite wharez site? If your computing needs are so low, everything but MS-DOS will workl for you....

[Uncle Slacky]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

After about Paint Shop Pro 5, they started to add a lot more needless bloat and not many useful new features, so there's no need to go much beyond v7. Certainly there's no advantage to the Corel-owned versions. The earlier versions (at least) are also dead easy to pirate - just zip up the directory tree & contents and unzip on the target machine.

[paulc]

Re: Wine to the rescue!

I have Corel Paintshop Pro X4 (v14) at work and it's now started nagging me to upgrade...

[Kurt Meyer]

'a particular update - possibly marked "Important".'

@ AC

I posted this in another thread, but I feel it is worth repeatng here.

As far as I know, the list of updates to avoid for Windows 7 users is as follows:

KB971033 - Update to Windows Activation Technologies. Listed as Important.

KB2952664 - Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7. Listed as Recommended

KB2990214 - Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows. Listed as Recommended.

KB3035583 - Update installs get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1. Listed as Recommended.

KB3068708 - Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry. Listed as Recommended.

KB3075249 - Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7. Listed as Recommended.

KB3080149 - Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry. Listed as Recommended.

I have also seen KB3102429 mentioned as an update to avoid. A check of the KnowledgeBase says that it is an: Update for central Asian currencies. WTF?

Since my need for (or my customers need for) any thing to do with central Asian currencies is vanishingly small, I avoid it also.

As a matter of fact, there are very few of the "Recommended" updates that I bother to install.

I hope this list will be of some help to you and your users.

[Frank N. Stein]

Windows only for games.

With you on only using Windows for games. For anything else, I use my Mac's.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Windows only for games.

Your Mac's what? What part of the Mac's property do you use?

(Hint: apostrophe = ownership)

[Jess]

Re: Your Mac's what?

Since "Mac's" is actually an abbreviation of Macintoshes, I don't believe it is incorrect.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Your Mac's what?

Not sure that Macintoshes is the plural of Macintosh.

In the same way that legos is not the plural of Lego.

To my ears Macintoshes sounds wrong, "I use my Macintosh computers" sounds clumsy but is more accurate* better yet "I use a Macintosh" does not imply a specific quantity so does not need to be pluralised.

* I'm probably wrong.

[Uncle Slacky]

Re: Your Mac's what?

I quite like "Macintoshen", cf. "VAXen", "boxen" etc.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/B/boxen.html

[Richard Plinston]

Re: Your Mac's what?

> better yet "I use a Macintosh" does not imply a specific quantity

Yes it does. 'a' -> 1.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: Your Mac's what?

"Since "Mac's" is actually an abbreviation of Macintoshes, I don't believe it is incorrect."

No. "Mac" is an abbreviation of "Macintosh". Having abbreviated it, you make it plural by adding an s. There are no newly-missing letters. For similar reasons, we don't write "laser's".

[Colin Ritchie]

Re: Your Mac's what?

https://youtu.be/8Gv0H-vPoDc

Nuff said.

[Richard Plinston]

Re: Your Mac's what?

> For similar reasons, we don't write "laser's".

'laser' is not an abbreviation, it is an acronym.

"""The term "laser" originated as an acronym for "light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation"."""

[Ellipsis]

Re: Your Mac's what?

> we don't write "laser's"

Of course we don’t. We write “frikkin’ laser’s”…

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows only for games.

With you on only using Windows for games. For anything else, I use my Mac's.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Windows only for games.

One wonders whether Apple is considering a x86 version of their OS. On one hand that's a horrible idea but I can't help thinking another Screw you M$ channel isn't unattractive

[Mikey]

Re: Windows only for games.

That would mean them having to support masses of hardware configurations and drivers, products and other stuff that would all require certification before it would be allowed to set foot on the holy MacOS. And let's face it, it would cut into the profits of selling average hardware at silly markups, so it wouldn't do their bottom line any good.

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Windows only for games.

"One wonders whether Apple is considering a x86 version of their OS."

They are. It's going to be announced in 2005. I'm so excited, I can't wait!!!1111!!!!one!!1

[Mephistro]

Re: Windows only for games.

ROFLMAO!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Windows only for games.

Apple is considering a x86 version of their OS

You mean like the one they've been shipping on every MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro sold?

[Dr U Mour]

Offline only -Is there a definitive answer?

Assuming Windows10 is activated correctly at installation, is there a time limit to running it offline? Must it connect to the internet after any given period of time for any reason e.g. Windows Genuine Advantage "just checking" the OS is still legit ?

[Charles 9]

Re: Offline only -Is there a definitive answer?

It usually need to connect ONCE, during the install period. I think you can unplug it after that, though, if you're paranoid (since there's little they can harvest from a virgin machine).

[Steve 114]

Re: Offline only -Is there a definitive answer?

Never one to miss a freebie, I cloned my HDD and ran the 'update' from 7 on that. (Not bad, but it silently ate some fully-working programs, so I can't keep it). I think that will have on-line 'registered' my device for 10 for life. Now the Win7 HDD is safely back in, does anyone know whether the 7 registration will self-destruct in due time?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Offline only -Is there a definitive answer?

W7 should run until 2020; but on current form I wouldn't be too shocked if MS attempted to poison it before then.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Offline only -Is there a definitive answer?

Now the Win7 HDD is safely back in, does anyone know whether the 7 registration will self-destruct in due time?

Yes, actually, you will find it will start to smoke like one of those old tapes in the Mission Impossible movies before they got Tom Cruise to do the honours (not that I mind, he's actually quite OK in that role). The timer is set, so I recommend you upgrade to Linux immediately.*

What? Why does only Microsoft get to spread disinformation?

* No explosions, but MS doesn't like people reneging on their faith (in updates leading to better computing, mainly).

[Updraft102]

Windows 10 adoption rate

The new Netmarketshare.com stats are out, and there are some interesting bits to point out.

First, OSX and Linux grew at a faster rate than Windows 10, despite Microsoft's tactics (or because of them). If things keep going at the current rate, OSX will pass Windows 10 in April of 2017. I know that's exceedingly unlikely, but it does show that the adoption rate of 10 is less than MS had hoped.

Second, Windows 7 has posted an increase in market share for the second straight month.

[tempemeaty]

Re: Windows 10 adoption rate

Windows 10 adoption cram rate

There. I fixed it.

ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ , ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Windows 10 adoption rate

Mystic moiety predicts another jump in linux and mac stats when MS start charging, and another in 2020 when W7 end-of-lifes

[Charles 9]

Re: Windows 10 adoption rate

ONLY if gaming support improves by then. Otherwise, there's still a captive market.

[TVU]

Re: Windows 10 adoption rate

"ONLY if gaming support improves by then. Otherwise, there's still a captive market."

To be fair, these days many Steam games are available for Linux and the games' list keeps on growing. People have also had varying degrees of success using WINE but that can be a bit unpredictable.

[Charles 9]

Re: Windows 10 adoption rate

Many, but not MOST, and that's especially true of the headliners like Fallout 4 (Bethesda swore off Linux development--too scatterbrained, they said).

[cd / && rm -rf *]

Re: Windows 10 adoption rate

Windows 10 cram rate

Is that sideways?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Microsoft has got one message

The need for a "do not notify me ever" link. Full-screen mode is particularly rude, but at least they have the option of "No and do not ever assault me with this crud again."

The question remains as to whether it works or not.

[Lion]

Tiny tiny almost illegible "decline' option. No doubt a reluctant addition.

I see some users got the notification as an important update. I got it as an optional update. My PC was sent the upgrade in the early days of it being offered and it failed to install, so according to their blurb I should not have received it at all. Another little fib they will have to apologize for.

[Carl D]

Simplix

Anyone contemplating a clean install of Windows 7 these days should do a search for 'Simplix'. I found it mentioned (and linked to) from a thread in the Windows 10 section of Whirlpool forums.

It's a rollup package of all the updates since SP1 (without the W10 and telemetry crap) and it is updated monthly so you can start using it anytime - it searches for installed updates and just installs the ones you need if you're already pretty much up to date.

Much better than the 'half hearted' MS so called 'Convenience Rollup for W7' they released recently.

Using Simplix with a clean install of W7 SP1 can take up to an hour and it has about 3 reboots (it installs the updates in groups, about 80 then a reboot, then about 60 then a reboot, then the rest and a final reboot). You get prompted for the first reboot then the rest is fully 'automatic'.

The beauty of this is (apart from the lack of W10 nag/telemetry patches) is that you don't need to use Windows Update at all - and you can leave it completely disabled, even in Services. Just download the new Simplix package each month and update with it.

[Charles 9]

Re: Simplix

Until Simplix shuts down, that is...

[d3vy]

Re: Simplix

Or decides to I stall their own crap on your machine quietly...

[Carl D]

Re: Simplix

Simplix is scrutinized by lots of people on the Whirlpool forums so I doubt very much that it has any 'crap' of it's own. Of course, everyone should always scan downloaded files of any sort with their choice of antivirus/antimalware program prior to installing.

Anyway - with MS's malware like behaviour with Windows 10 'nags' over the past year I think a lot of people using Windows 7 and 8.1 would rather take their chances with something like Simplix instead of Windows Update.

[Carl D]

Re: Simplix

Based on the location of the people behind the Simplix project (Russia), I suspect MS is going to have a very difficult time trying to shut them down. They've been running for several years now already.

[Charles 9]

Re: Simplix

If Simplix is in Russia, that raises red flags right there due to the high amount of cybercrime the place is notorious for. Not just criminal elements, but state-sponsored attacks, too.

PS. I was talking about Simplix shutting down on its own.

[Updraft102]

Re: Simplix

It does raise an eyebrow, but I don't exactly trust the US government either. There is a lot of good stuff that comes out of Russia too... they have a lot of really talented programmers over there (not that packaging MS updates is really coding).

[bombastic bob]

Re: Simplix

"There is a lot of good stuff that comes out of Russia too... they have a lot of really talented programmers over there"

ACK - I've worked with several Russian engineers in the past (would visit the U.S. from St. Petersberg periodically) and they'd come into our office with their Russian-made laptops etc..

There is a kind of 'N.I.H.' mentality inside Russia. They like making their own stuff, NOT importing. So you can see some potential here. And they ARE pretty good at it.

Now, if a company in Russia were to produce its OWN OS, something that people outside of Russia would want, something that might COMPETE DIRECTLY WITH WINDOWS, it would be a rather interesting outcome from Micro-Shaft's big blunder with Win-10-nic...

[Gray]

Blue on blue

I showed the blue screen image to my missus, pointing out MS "find the pea" tactic of obfuscating the "opt out" choices. First thing out of her mouth, after leaning over close to the screen to read the tiny lines obscured down in the left-hand corner: "blue on blue! Nobody can read that !"

[Mpeler]

Re: Blue on blue

Read somewhere that blue on blue is a term for "friendly fire". Seems that it's unfriendly fire from M$.

And, with apologies to Bobby Vinton,

Blue on blue, heartache on heartache

Blue on blue, I wish that we were through

Blue on blue, nagware and spyware

And now I find I must disable updates too.

(Paris, because she's blue, too)...

[8Ace]

July 29 .. ?

I think you'll find that's actually the 29th of July

[harmjschoonhoven]

Re: July 29 .. ?

MS does not state "Windows 10 free upgrade offer ends July 29 2016".

See you in court.

[alain williams]

Disability legislation

"blue on blue! Nobody can read that !"

I wonder if that makes the screen illegal under the UK's disability legislation -- re those who have poor sight.

[A Ghost]

Re: Disability legislation otherwise known as

Out of the blue and into the black.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cawk2cMTnGo

==================

My my, hey hey

Microsoft is here to stay

It's better to burn out

Than to fade away

My my, hey hey.

Out of the blue

and into the black

They give you this,

but you pay for that

And once it's gone,

it can never come back

Unless you're one of the lucky ones

That can roll it back

The king is gone

but he's not forgotten

This is the story

of a Billy Rotten

It's better to burn out

than it is to rust

The king is gone

but he's not forgotten.

Hey hey, my my

Microsoft can never die

There's more to the picture

Than meets the eye.

Hey hey, my my.

==============

Here's to you Bill! And all that you spawned, Monkey Boy and all, and all the pale imitators ever since.

You sure did leave your mark on humanity.

You had a chance very few men have.

Yes, you were in the right place at the right time.

Yes, you took advantage of that, as any good business man would.

But your legacy is about so much more, isn't it Billy Rotten?

Hey hey, My My.. indeed.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: Disability legislation

Or US ADA

[bombastic bob]

Re: Disability legislation

"Or US ADA"

Micro-Shaft is ALREADY skirting *THAT* one after having limited our choices with respect to screen colors and OTHER settings (ones that _I_ believe 'assist' *MY* old eyes, like having borders for windows that are MORE! THAN! ONE! PIXEL! WIDE! and with a COLOR assigned on top of the grey edges - I like red, makes the border VERY visible, but can't have THAT in 'Win-10-nic' now can we?).

I've mentioned it a zillion times on the 'answers' forum, before they threatened to ban me because of my writing style (you know, using CAPITALIZATION for EMPHASIS, and occasional BANG! MARKS! for even MORE emphasis), but it was REALLY because I _constantly_ _complained_ about these *kinds* of things, trying to turn the barge around [but to no avail]. Usually the fanboi-trolls and MS-shills would make rude comments like "refusing to change" and kept calling the 'new' stuff "modern" like I was some *OLD* *FART* stuck in his ways, unwilling to 'modernize'.

And I think that's Microsoft's attitude these days, which should REALLY anger everyone over 40... or those who have some kind of disability, for whom the windows settings and simple assistive technologies usually made computers usable.

[Herby]

I wonder when...

Some enclosed consumer thing (like an ATM) gets one of these nag screens.

One wonders what people in Redmond are smoking, even if it is legal.

This whole things sounds like a ransom where virus (which it probably is).

Me? Thankfully at work they don't use these devices.

[Mpeler]

Re: I wonder when...

Or some head-of-state's teleprompter gets fhe blue screen of Dearth... er, Darth....

[a_yank_lurker]

Subscriptions

Slurp is forgetting something about subscriptions; people do not like them and only will put with a limited number of subscriptions. Most are getting nickeled and dimed for various subscriptions that they will not be thrilled to add for the OS. OS X and Linux are either effectively free or actually free to the user; no subscriptions required.

[TVU]

Re: Subscriptions

"Slurp is forgetting something about subscriptions; people do not like them and only will put with a limited number of subscriptions. Most are getting nickeled and dimed for various subscriptions that they will not be thrilled to add for the OS. OS X and Linux are either effectively free or actually free to the user; no subscriptions required."

If Redmond does indeed start a subscription charging policy for Windows 10 then I suspect that there'll be a noticeable exodus to Linux and OS X (including hackintoshes) with many other users refusing to move from Windows 7 and 8.1.

If the charging policy is more nuanced, e.g. there'll be a free base level Windows 10 but other versions with more bells and whistles will be subject to a modest monthly subscription then I expect that there'll still be some damage but just less of it.

[MonkeyCee]

Re: Subscriptions

"I suspect that there'll be a noticeable exodus to Linux and OS X (including hackintoshes)"

I doubt it for the hackintosh. I've built a couple and while they are OK if you want a cheaper Apple, you're usually better off going straight to linux, or sucking it up and paying the Apple tax. The many small niggles with the hackintosh usually drives users away from using it as their desktop system (eg colour matching is off, and takes aaaaages to get right), and Mint et al are pretty user friendly these days.

One client is very happy with their hackintosh server, which started as a new desktop but didn't work out well for the artist. Toss a RAID card and a few cheapish drives in there and Robert is your mum's brother.

I like building hackintoshes, and I'd happily sell them to all comers, but they are a *very* niche market. I'd expect Linux on rebuilt machines and Mac OS if they're going to spring for a new one.

[Vic]

Re: Subscriptions

I like building hackintoshes, and I'd happily sell them to all comers

You probably shouldn't. It went very badly for one bunch who tried that.

Vic.

[Zakhar]

Re: Subscriptions

You are thinking "home PC".

All those enterprises like M$ have no clue on how to change their economical model that dates back to the last millennium (forcing down your throat a license with each new PC), so what they all do is "concentrate on enterprises". Because enterprises are so slow to move and so conservative that make a good lot of people that WILL gladly pay the subscription.

Of course that is a short term win. Gates new better, he widely closed eyes on illegal copies, gave it to students and young persons. Students at some point have job in enterprises, and when they get to decide, they decide with what they know. So if you "concentrate" on enterprise and the standard home PC is now OS.X, Linux, Chromebook/Android, they WILL spread in the enterprise once those people using that at home get to decide.

[Queeg]

I know where you can cram it

"It's hoped that after the free period is over, and you'll have to pay for Windows 10, Microsoft will dial down its efforts to cram its software onto people's machines."

Suggestions on a post card to....

1 Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052, United States

[Charles 9]

Re: I know where you can cram it

Don't bother. Most companies keep Complaints Departments (which are basically just one-way chutes to the shredders or incinerators).

[Mpeler]

Re: I know where you can cram it

"Most companies keep Complaints Departments"

Could it be that Micro$oft is morphing into Sirius Cybernetics?

(Shirley, you can't be Sirius...) (OK, Paris, not Shirley)...

[Mpeler]

Re: I know where you can cram it

Speaking of Sirius Cybernetics and M$, I think Douglas Adams may have had them in mind, especially considering the "ribbon" :

"It is very easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of [their products] by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. In other words—and this is the rock solid principle on which the whole of the Corporation's Galaxy-wide success is founded—their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws."

[A Ghost]

Re: I know where you can cram it

@Mpeler

He's not sirius.

I am.

[ecofeco]

Re: I know where you can cram it

Shirely a dog star.

[A Ghost]

Re: I know where you can cram it

@Charles 9

I didn't even know what 'dev/null' meant, until I took a job at the post office!

But if you want to get really abstract, let's talk Java Automatic Garbage Collection.

Actually, let's not.

All the best.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a Deal

Dear Microsoft.

I'll allow you to screw up my PC if you pay me $10,000 which I believe is now the going rate.

I look forward to your cheque in te post.

Yours as always

EF.

[A Ghost]

This is what the message box wanted to say:

"Sorry to rape you, but learn your fucking place you fucking peasant!"

Now we have your attention, and you know just who is the fucking daddy around here, let's get a few facts straight.

Your computer that you bought, does not fucking belong to you. It fucking belongs to us, got that, cunt?

All your data, your children's nudes, your wife's nudes, your appeal for medical negligence, now belong to us, you got that too, cunt?

That's about it. You should be getting the picture by now. Sure, you think you are some kind of outlier freedom fighter, but you're not, got that, cunt?

Nobody cares. We tell them what we are doing to them, and they say: "Oh go on then, you saucy bugger". That is what you are dealing with, cunt!

We've gathered so much shit about your porn browsing, which is technically illegal, in the UK at least, even though you can access it. We have the little discrepancy for that little insurance claim you made, you lying thieving twat! We know that you are trying to game the system so that your rubbish gets collected before half your town gets cholera. And worst of all, you collect old Action Man figures, you sad lonely old fuck.

We give all of this information to the security services via a tap. That's a given. But you know that complaint about the bad service you got at your housing association? Did you know why the little old ladies are laughing at you, cunt? It's because we opened up our data on you to local councils, and those 70 year old beauties now know that you like to cover yourself in strawberry jam while your wife beats you and call you 'Michelle' all the while dressed up as a gorilla. They also get a chuckle from the fact that your wife likes to role-play as well. 'Mercy mercy uncle Percy' - well, they liked it so much, they started using it themselves!

All your data are belong to us, cunt!

You thought you bought an operating system?

Think again, cunt.

Can I make this message any more clearer, cunt?

---------------------------------------

And so it begins...

As I and many others predicted. It only gets a lot nastier from here.

TAKE YOUR MACHINES OFF THE NET NOW.

There is going to be some really really nasty shit pulled in the next days.

Microsoft have not disappointed so far. Personally, I think there has been some kind of governmental coup that we have not heard about and this is just pure data-gathering before the yellow stars and blue scarves come out. But don't listen to me, I've only been right about everything in the last 10 years or so.

[DainB]

Re: This is what the message box wanted to say:

The only escape is cooking stuff row in Tesco, in absence of tin foil aluminum will work just as good.

[Charles 9]

Re: This is what the message box wanted to say:

I thought the story was that tin was switched for aluminum because aluminum actually concentrates rather than shields.

[A Ghost]

Re: @DainB

That's very easy for you to say though, isn't it?

[d3vy]

Re: This is what the message box wanted to say:

You've been right about EVERYTHING in the last ten years?

I highly doubt that.

[A Ghost]

Re: @d3vy

You've been right about EVERYTHING in the last ten years?

No, I didn't say that.

I said:

I've only been right about everything in the last 10 years or so.

Subtle difference.

One is an exaggerated claim, the other, more under-stated.

[ecofeco]

Re: This is what the message box wanted to say:

Nailed it A Ghost. POTD.

[Dave 32]

Windows XP

I'm glad I'm still running Windows XP. It does everything that I need, without all the annoying feetchures of the more modern Windows.

Dave

[Anonymous Coward]

@Dave32 - Re: Windows XP

And best part of it, hackers seem to have moved their attention elsewhere. Remember the scare tactic not so long ago when MS and all their minions were telling world plus dog that Windows XP without security patches will endanger the humanity ? I feel pretty much safe for my two Windows XP installs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @Dave32 - Windows XP

No, it's just they already found ways to pwn XP wholesale with no interactions, and since they know it won't be patched, they just put that exploit aside for when they need it and move their efforts elsewhere. Why fix something that isn't broken?

[Updraft102]

Re: @Dave32 - Windows XP

If you come under specific target because the hackers want *you,* XP will fall faster than 7, certainly, but I don't doubt for a moment that 7, 10, or even Linux would fall under such circumstances either-- it would just take longer.

If you mean garden-variety malware (ransomware, etc) that spreads by the usual automated means, I think that XP is probably too small in market for anyone to really bother with specifically. Most of the stuff we're seeing now uses social-engineering stuff to get people to run it on 7, 8, or 10, not malware that relies on XP-specific flaws to work. Any self-propagating malware that relies on Win XP flaws is not going to go far; as soon as it reaches one of the 90+% of the desktop market that is not susceptible, it stops dead.

I would say that if you are using a non-IE, up to date browser without Flash or Java enabled, in a user-level XP account, you're probably not as unsafe as a lot of people think (though it's not the choice I would make). People using XP know it's vulnerable, and they are more likely to be careful about what they do compared to typical users of Windows who end up with multiple layers of useless toolbars and other crap.

[Uncle Slacky]

Re: @Dave32 - Windows XP

You'll be even safer with a Win98SE install - nobody cares about them at all. Remember to install KernelEX: http://kernelex.sourceforge.net/

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @Dave32 - Windows XP

Nobody cares because most software that matters requires an NT kernel (2K and up), meaning it won't work. I mean, come on. Firefox 8.0? That's ancient (and probably still full of holes).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Windows XP

I still have a laptop running XP and for the limited use I put it to (legacy apps, no internet browsing etc) it does the job just fine.

Obtaining drivers for legacy hardware or having to buy updated Win8/10 software so I can run exactly the same applications, seems rather pointless.

Sometimes all that's needed is a no frills o/s that just allows you to run your application with the minimum of fuss.

[Mikel]

"Final push"

Not even close to the end here guys. As I have been telling you since this started, this is do or die time for Microsoft. Android has been taking over. Microsoft need to get a critical mass of people on to Windows 10 - and quick - or it's all over for them.

So no, this does not end in July. We have not seen the worst of it. Not even close.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Final push"

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning. -- Winston Churchill

[Charles 9]

Re: "Final push"

Yeah right. I don't see Android taking over the desktop anytime soon. Too much momentum for x86 in that sphere.

[Stuart 22]

Re: "Final push"

"Yeah right. I don't see Android taking over the desktop anytime soon. Too much momentum for x86 in that sphere."

Not so much taking over as eliminating it. Why boot up a PC when you can do it on your mobile instantly or just flick up the lid on a Chromebook? Or if you are seeking to impress that may be an iPad or Mac.

I see more 'gaming' on a 5.5" screen in a railway carriage than on turbo-charged i7s. Yep a few dedicated gamers will stick with desktops and PS/2 mice but people who need to do real work (a diminishing category these days) could be increasingly better done with Linux for Geeks or Clouds for Non-Geeks. Its just a case of letting the legacy apps expire or get virtualised.

A slow but steady decline. I would hazard a guess that most non-office based PCs are being switched on less every year. There comes a time maybe real soon when its easier just to take it to the dump than pulling your hair out whether and when you might upgrade from Windows n to Windows n+x

Thankfully I've already switched my company to Linux. It wasn't easy but I'm now smugly seeing payback not only in money but not having to worry about Microsoft's monetising and its inappropriate (for us) GUI strategies. No decisions other than to roll gently from one LTS to the next in our own time and pace - not somebody else's who has no interest in our use of technology.

[Charles 9]

Re: "Final push"

Media work will need the oomph of a proper desktop if not a workstation. Same for 3D work and gaming. Android devices are CONSUMPTION devices, NOT DEVELOPMENT devices.

And lucky you can switch. Many are locked in because their custom job that's too expensive to replace is Windows-ONLY. Same for the games. Don't even get started on WINE (compatibility list is quite low, especially as you get to newer games, let's not get started with DX12) or VMs (which still get a license, and you STILL need Win10 for DX12).

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: "Final push"

The long temr problem for Slurp is consumption devices better fit what most routinely use their devices for. At most are surfing, emailing, looking at cat pictures, etc. not creating the "Great American Novel" or anything else that needs a powerful desktop or laptop. So the home desktop is only occasionally useful as a desktop. Consumption devices need apps and a standards compliant browser and not much else.

Slurp rightly fears the shift away from desktops in the home market. The major problem is users get used to something else that is not Winbloat. Once they find they can often not use Winbloat the mystic is broken. With time they are more apt to use devices that mirror their needs whatever the underlying OS. Also, subscription services (Office 365, etc) are almost always OS agnostic so the need for Winbloat is again minimized.

[Charles 9]

Re: "Final push"

Put it this way. When Walmart abandons the PC hardware and software section, then I'll believe you. In the meantime, there is still a need for a genuine PC with genuine hardware support, like for keyboards, mice for photo touchup, and what about printers (and no I don't want my photos to be printed via the cloud)? People need PCs more than they realize, but as the song goes, they don't know what they've got until it's gone.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Final push"

@charles 9

> Many are locked in because their custom job that's too expensive to replace is Windows-ONLY

And unfortunately a lot of these people are between a rock and a hard place because that custom software is not compatible with Win 8+ either (and due to limited uptake of Win 8+ in business there is little motivation for 3rd party software vendors to ensure compatability with newer Windows).

Since hardware performance has not improved significantly in 6 years, as long as the old hardware continues to work the old software can be used with old Windows - and if the old hardware does break there are plenty of second-hand options.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: "Final push"

Home PCs do not need to be the latest hardware or applications for most users. So a 5-6 year old box with an application version the user knows is often more than adequate. Most users do not need much more than the basic functionality of most applications. A point which applications have reached in many case 10-15 years ago.

Also, the last time I checked Wally World, they were selling dirt cheap, crapware PCs on the floor but they do sell Linux PCs online. Also, in Best Buys, Chromebooks and Macs are given about as much floor space as Winbloat.

[Charles 9]

Re: "Final push"

But they also sell printers, which still call for PCs (and normally Windows PCs) to work. They also sell external hard drives and plenty of other PC accessories. And last I checked, although the PCs themselves are not exactly top of the line, they DO get sold with Windows 8 preinstalled. I expect this will become 10 in the near future. As for Linux, the only ones I see of the sort are Chromebooks, which don't get much of a presence in the showcase versus Windows laptops.

Like I said, I'll believe the hype when Walmart drops Windows. Walmart actually tried to do Linux in the past...to their detriment.

[Pompous Git]

Re: "Final push"

But they [Walmart] also sell printers, which still call for PCs (and normally Windows PCs) to work...

Are you suggesting that we purchase expensive return air fares to MerkinLand to purchase from a store that you say refuses to sell PCs without Windows? That's fucking insane!

As for printers needing PCs, yes there are some that require PCs running Windows (GDI printers), but I'm willing to bet my Postscript Level 3 printer will work with most computers. Ditto for the PCL printers I've owned.

You might want to check the floor for marbles.

[DainB]

It's fine

Windows 10 is absolutely fine, no worse than Windows 7 is. In fact after upgrade it consumes less CPU and works noticeably faster. Still way better than any Linux desktop ever created.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ouch

My sarcasmometer ploded. Im or ex, not sure yet due to the phenomenal pain.

[DainB]

Re: Ouch

I think it's called butthurt, but you should know better.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ouch

By noticeably faster, could you post some measurements please?

Are you comparing a fresh install of 10 against a fresh install of 7?

Which Linux desktops / hardware platform?

Again, measurements please.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Ouch

"Again, measurements please."

And especially with regard to measuring desktop excellence.

[DainB]

Re: Ouch

As I said - it's fine. Can I quantify "fine" ? Yes, but i could not be assed wasting my time doing it for some anonymous troll on a forum.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ouch

What you actually said was "after upgrade it consumes less CPU and works noticeably faster"

Of the 3 people who asked you to prove it, or at least back up your statement with figures, only one was properly anonymous. But if you are going to claim measurable improvements like that on a tech site, you should be prepared to be called out on it.

My only exposure was an early beta, which ran like a shed; but it was an early beta. Personally I doubt that it consumes less CPU. It might run noticeably faster if it was replacing a long-time crufted-up version of Windows and that was what you were comparing; but then a new copy of W7 would run noticeably faster too. I simply don't care if your claims are true or not - Microsoft have dickmoved themselves onto my naughty list and it honestly doesn't matter if W10 is any good or not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ouch

OP was probably referring to me (original patient). I'd rather be anonymous troll than obvious troll or even obvious shill. TBH I took the bait, fed the trolls... at least I didn't take the other bait, a.k.a. free upgrades for a year. For shame!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Ouch

@DainB

Sorry, I work for a hardware manufacturer; therefore cannot post under my real name.

I'm genuinely interested in measurements, as while I've worked with 10, W7, and Vista side by side on different machines, they were _different_ (all SSD, though).

My _perception_ was a similar level of responsiveness for all 3 (which did suprise me in the case of the Vista machine).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's fine

Nurse, over here please! Hurry up!

[Jos V]

Re: It's fine

Sure DainB. You sound like a pod from bodysnatchers (the original). It's ok, it feels soooo much better.

Oh and CPU usage, yah, I have to kill off wuauserv service in the task manager 5 times a day to stop it fucking around and using 25% of total CPU time, raising the temp of my laptop and making the fan go full blow.

What is "noticeably faster" anyways? you type 100 words per minute now instead of 90?

[A Ghost]

Re: It's fine

Oh and CPU usage, yah, I have to kill off wuauserv service in the task manager 5 times a day to stop it fucking around and using 25% of total CPU time, raising the temp of my laptop and making the fan go full blow.

Oh sheer fucking poetry, brother.

That's what it's like!

You're like a word-warrior-god.

We should get tattoos to commemorate the time we 'served' together.

Hey hey, My my

WinXP, can never die!

[Jess]

Re: It's fine

Yes, yes and WTF? It's scarcely any different to mint. That's why I quite like it. I'm already prepared to jump to mint as soon as they do something I really don't like.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's fine

Call me finicky, but I prefer that people who write the OS I use daily for stuff that's important (to me) to have at least have some passing familiarity with the concept of ethics.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's fine

That would be why it bsods on me EVERY day whereas linux mint has never done so. Linux mint is far ahead of windows 10. The gui is better, its more stable, it doesn't get viruses, it doesn't need defragging, it looks better, its more configurable and it doesn't spy on you.

[Patrician]

Re: It's fine

"That would be why it bsods on me EVERY day"

If that's the case you have a hardware/driver problem

"Linux mint is far ahead of windows 10"

Opinion no fact

"The gui is better"

Opinion not fact.

"its more stable"

A GUI more stable? Proof please otherwise, again, an opinion not fact.

"it doesn't get viruses" *

It does.

"it doesn't need defragging"

Nor does a Windows PC on NTFS.

"it looks better"

Opinion not fact.

"its more configurable"

not sure about this; please elaborate?

"and it doesn't spy on you."

Are you sure about that?

* The number of threats goes way beyond getting a malware infection. What about receiving a phishing email or ending up on a phishing website. Does using a Linux-based operating system prevent you from giving up your personal or bank information?

And what about Heartbleed or Shellshock, or any other vulnerability of your choice? No, no system is invulnerable!

[bombastic bob]

Re: It's fine

"Windows 10 is absolutely fine, no worse than Windows 7"

"after upgrade it consumes less CPU and works noticeably faster."

you forgot to include the 'sarcasm' tags... (oh, were you SERIOUS? I'm sorry, your experience differs so much from mine that I can't see any possibility of you even being REMOTELY correct here)

[Anonymous Coward]

Rejected? Then please fix the link then Reg team...

"This week a Reg hack"

That link seems to be broken, at least it doesn't go to any Win-10 broken mic Skype story???

[diodesign]

Re: Rejected? Then please fix the link then Reg team...

Click the link, watch the video. Iain was supposed to appear live on Twit.tv but couldn't due to a Windows 10 update.

C.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Rejected? Then please fix the link then Reg team...

Iain was supposed to appear live on Twit.tv but couldn't due to a Windows 10 update.

Ironic humour, fact or both?

[tiggity]

Re: Rejected? Then please fix the link then Reg team...

That's what you get for ignoring commentard advice re Win 10 ;-)

[Anonymous Coward]

How desperate is Microsoft?

New Windows machines are already preloaded with Win 10, and it's hard to get a legit licensed copy of Win 7 these days. And Microsoft is still not satisfied with this?

I'm glad I'm still on Vista, free from all this upgrade nagging. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with Chrome v49, because Google has bandwagoned on this forced planned obsolescence marketing tactic. At least there are alternative browsers to choose from.

P.S: I still won't forgive Microsoft for what it had done to games such as Minesweeper, Solitaire etc. No one wants to use your crappy app store, and no one wants to pay for bastardised freemium versions of these classic games.

[Neil Barnes]

It's those nasty penguin people

They've *ruined* it for MS, telling folk they can have good stuff FOR FREE!

And then when MS try and give it away, people still don't want it.

(Checks, ah yes, Mint 17.)

[Ken Hagan]

Re: It's those nasty penguin people

"they can have good stuff FOR FREE"

Sorry to get all foss-tard on you, but I find it hard to parse that except in the sense of free-as-in-beer, but I'm pretty sure the revolt against Microsoft's dickery is largely based in a (long overdue) realisation by ordinary people that what they want is "free as in speech". That is, even if Linux cost a small amount and Windows was free, people would pay for the OS that behaved as though *you* owned the computer.

So, yes, it is those nasty penguin people but, no, giving Windows away won't help.

[Chemist]

Re: It's those nasty penguin people

" That is, even if Linux cost a small amount and Windows was free, people would pay for the OS that behaved as though *you* owned the computer."

Quite a long time ago now i computing terms (~~2000) I used to pay for SUSE Linux ( ~£50 if i recall correctly) For that you got a set of disks, a manual and support. Thought it was a bargain at the time compared with Windows.

[Pompous Git]

Re: It's those nasty penguin people

Quite a long time ago now i computing terms (~~2000) I used to pay for SUSE Linux ( ~£50 if i recall correctly)

Still got my SuSE 7.1 and the little green lizard badge :-)

[Tom 7]

Dont upgrade, sidegrade

For the price of getting the paperwork sorted for sueing ms for this clusterfuck get a Pi3.

For about £60 I'm sitting in my bean bag with wireless keyboard and a massive monitor - OK its my telly but its still pretty good.

Not as fast as my laptop but the web experience is enjoyable, I've got a full set of office and programming shit. I dont game myself but I'd bet 80% of PC owners dont.

And I can help the kids with some of their school IT stuff - now I've learned not to choke at its inanity.

All for less than your first years(months?) prescription I'd guess.

[David Roberts]

Minty?

I'm mainly running Windows at the moment.

Because it mostly does what I want and supports the bits of specialised hardware that I have (satnav, power monitor and blood glucose monitor) without any special frigging about like installing Wine.

I also have a Mint install as an alternative to a Live CD for when I need to get down and dirty with stuff like rescuing failing drives with ddrescue.

One thing I noted was that the built in performance monitoring tools in the default install are better under Windows, and that W8.1 is better than W7.

I just wanted to monitor the disc access. Sytem monitor doesn't do it. You have to install another package. This includes "sar"; oh, good, I remember sar from Unix. No, it doesn't run because you have to edit a configuration file to turn on data collection. I don't remember it being this hard under Unix.

So my current take is that for low level stuff like working with discs without paying for a commercial package Linux rocks.

For entry level users who just need a web browser, mail program and office suite it is wonderful.

For slighly more advanced daily use it starts to get frustrating. No doubt a week or so finding all the bits included in Windows and adding them and the pain will go away. However it was a little dispointing.

Looking back, I used to use Fedora then Ubuntu a lot on dual boot in the XP/Vista days. However since W8.1 I haven't even got round to installing dual boot, and the Ubuntu on the W7 system was fired up once in a blue moon to update it but not much more. I do have an old system running Mint full time but I very rarely need to use it.

So if Windows starts to be a big problem I can move to a Linux distribution but otherwise why?

Remembering now that I was a fairly early adopter of Linux and the fora always used to be full of newbie posts saying "I've just downloaded Linux and I'm never going to use Windows again!" Nobody seemed to post "Three months of using Linux and it gets better every day!" I did idly wonder how many went back to Windows when they realised their favourite software wouldn't run but couldn't be arsed to admit this.

Senility warning: I've just rushed through all my W10 and back again up/downgrades to beat the deadline only to realies that I'm a month early.

[Maventi]

Re: Minty?

Have you tried iotop? It's pretty good.

[David Roberts]

Re: Minty?

I think iotop shows you the top processes using i/o.

I was looking for lower level data on per disc io.

Stuff graphed out in Performance Monitor in W8.1

[Hairy Scary]

Re: Minty?

Been using Linux for 5 years now and I will never go back to Windows.

This laptop started life with Win7 pro, the first thing I did was dual boot it with Linux Mint to see what Linux was like now (years ago I had played with Mandrake and found it OK. but a lot of software that I needed not available so was just a plaything).

The laptop gradually changed from booting into Windows with the occasional foray into Linux to booting Linux daily with the occasional foray into Windows, eventually Windows was hardly ever used.

I replaced the hard drive a couple of years ago and didn't bother dual booting, it's Mint all the way with Windows (7 and XP) living on in VMs.

One thing I found when replacing the disk was all I had to do was copy my /home partition (including hidden files) to the new drive and the new Mint install (now on 17.3) found it and used it --- all my files and program settings were there when I booted up the new install --- very useful!

Linux runs just about everything I need (some Windows only stuff under Wine) and the only program that doesn't like Wine (a program for drawing circuit diagrams) runs fine in the VM. Printer, scanner, WiFi, 3G dongle all worked no bother (printing in Linux was very hit and miss years ago)

So yes, some of us didn't go back to Windows, of course YMMV ---- Linux isn't perfect and will not work for everybody but for me it does everything I need.

[Andy Non]

Re: Minty?

I've been using Linux for several years now. Just upgraded to Mint 18. I've got a laptop with Windows 10 on it but it rarely gets turned on e.g. just for updating my sat-nav now and then.

[OtotheJ]

Re: Minty?

But haven't you just put your finger on the issue? Techies are more than happy to have more than one machine, it's fine to have a spare 'just for updating my sat-nav now and then', ordinary people only want one machine to do everything.

Again, until the Linux development community can stop navel gazing and turn their OS into one that device manufacturers see as credible, it will remain the preserve of techies and their unfortunate relatives.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Minty?

Unfortunate relatives ? What patronising rot. How about relatives that don't mind being spied on, having viruses, slow downs, and being in the hands of one monolithic company that has absolute control over updates to their system. Oh yes - that's windows not linux. You can EASILY run a virtual machine on linux if you need windows programs or dual boot. Why would you need two machines to run linux and windows ???? YOU DON'T

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Minty?

> turn their OS into one that device manufacturers see as credible

oh, you mean like Android?

[MrTuK]

Re: Minty?

@David Roberts

After using Linux since early Feb 2016 I will not ever be going back to Windows !

I started on Linux Mint and then changed to Ubuntu with Cinnamon desktop within a month and then upgraded to Ubuntu 16.04 again with Cinnamon Desktop.

I do play games atm just COH 2 and War Thunder on my Humble i7 Laptop.

I actually now own 2 i7 Laptops both with Ubuntu on and will never go back to Windows even though I started with Win 3.1 many many moons ago.

I can say with absolute certainty that Linux is more efficient than Win 10 - I tried that for 3 months but got pissed of trying to get rid or the bloatware and spyware (Impossible)

There is nothing on Win 10 that I need and an awful lot I don't want !

[Palpy]

Re: Minty? @David: good post.

Nicely put.

I do run Linux, and I do think "...it gets better every day!". Well, given that it's been 4 years now, the pace of new "oh wow" has slowed, so "it gets better every week" is more like it.

I'm no neckbeard, and I'm not very smart at all. But in Linux I can run a much more secure system that Windows out of the box (Qubes). I can run a very fast system (Q4OS) with up-to-date software on a 32-bit laptop (the one in the kitchen, that streams music, news, and looks up recipes). And when done with this bit of inconsequential nattering, I'm off to the bedroom audio booth to boot up KX Studio and work on one of my wretched audio projects, which I hope to make less wretched by opening up some sonic space between the tracks. (I used to try to record back in the day of Vista, but had vicious latency problems with the hardware I was using. KX Studio works.)

So: for me, the "why" of moving from Windows to Linux was the need for a new desktop box at the time when Win 8 was the OS installed. Ubuntu was a way to avoid what I saw as an utterly untenable OS. But the effect of the move was to make a lot of things much easier, quicker, and more interesting.

Your OS mileage is different, and that's as it should be. Cheers.

[Anonymous Coward]

July 30th...

"Independence Day!"

[Howard Hanek]

Desktop Takeover

It's impossible NOT to notice that MS's W10 demands to take over your desktop and reset all application defaults to their products whether you want to or not. Then comes the 'software subscription' and loss of control over the 'fees' which can then be raised as high as the market will bear.

No thanks. That sexy interface comes at a price. Corporate users have leverage. Individuals don't have much and they been weaned on gimmicks like 'clicky' and frightened away by the complexities of an OS that resembles a gigantic serving of spaghetti.

There are options, good ones with their 'price' being a learning curve for a standard desktop system software that predates MS-DOS and Windows and it's really not onerous at all and offers a community of millions solving common problems. I expect 'finally' that Unix/Linux growth will outpace Windows as the OS of choice. Because 'choice' is what MS is out to destroy.

[frank ly]

Re: Desktop Takeover

"That sexy interface ..." ?!?

I have to disagree with you there.

[BitDr]

Don't you just LOVE...

How the options to "Notify me three more times" and "Do not notify me again" are in a low contrast colour and don't look like buttons to be clicked on, while the "Upgrade Now" and "Remind Me Later" have white rectangles (buttons is you're using GEOS on a C=64) surrounding them with high contrast text.

This is the kind of scummy tactic used by crapware vendors in their adverts on sites like ZDnet and SourceForge to get the user to click on the wrong thing, or, in this case, not readily see the options to get Microsoft out of your face.

[Bronek Kozicki]

Yes, I see it!

Light blue letters on dark blue background "Do not notify me again". Who would have thought they will put such an option at all, no matter that barely visible!

[Roland6]

Re: Yes, I see it!

"Do not notify me again"

This is going to be an interesting setting. I hope someone will do a before and after system/registry diff and determine just what keys etc. exactly this option invokes.

[Anonymous Coward]

And we thought the borg on star trek were science fiction. Now we know what they've been doing all these years - programming windows 10. You WILL be assimilated - especially as they just bought linkedin. Lots of juicy tie ups there for selling to employers....

[Matthew Taylor]

Flirting with Linux Mint

So heinous are windows 10's upgrade shenanigans, that I actually went to Linux Mint's website, First thing I saw was that there are 3 different versions of it, and that was enough to repel me - I'd be bound to pick the wrong one. But if *I* (an utter lazy arse) was annoyed enough with windows to start looking around, the writing's surely on the wall.

[Vic]

Re: Flirting with Linux Mint

First thing I saw was that there are 3 different versions of it, and that was enough to repel me - I'd be bound to pick the wrong one

As long as you can choose between 32-bit and 64-bit, you'll be just fine[1]. Converting between the versions after installation is trivial - it's all the same software from the same repositories, just with different options chosen. And you can re-make those choices as often as you like...

Vic.

[1] Even if you choose your word-size incorrectly, you can re-install the right one later without losing your stuff just by saving the /home directory.

[A Ghost]

Re: Flirting with Linux Mint @Vic

the /home directory trick is a great one when you get the hang of it.

It's so deceptively simple.

I still haven't truly grokked it yet.

But I will.

[A Ghost]

Re: Flirting with Linux Mint @Matthew Taylor

So heinous are windows 10's upgrade shenanigans, that I actually went to Linux Mint's website, First thing I saw was that there are 3 different versions of it, and that was enough to repel me - I'd be bound to pick the wrong one. But if *I* (an utter lazy arse) was annoyed enough with windows to start looking around, the writing's surely on the wall.

I'll bite.

You can't really go wrong with linux mint. It's always going to be a crap shoot till you get something that a: you like, and b: works on your system.

You can make it simple or very elaborate.

Basically, if you have to use windows, use windows (I do), but if you don't, and you just want general computer stuff...

When you go to Linux, the first thing you learn, is that it is just a Kernel. That's why you need to download different versions sometimes for different processors. Sometimes to access more RAM with x64 stuff.

The desktop environments like KDE or LXDE or XFCE, or the common variants of Mint - Mate, Cinnamon, et al. - this is what gives you your 'look and feel'. That is why people got so pissed off before about Gnome going mad, in what was it? 2.3?

Just find something that works with your hardware.

First thing with Linux, when you get it going, make sure it works well with your hardware. First sign of shit, close their ass down like in a Tarantino interview!

You will know if your graphics hardware isn't working. Hardly anyone gets the audio card working past a point of basic functionality. But you can do some very advanced and impressive stuff with audio now if you are dedicated and take the time. Six months and you could build an absolute killer linux rig for making music, from composing it in a DAW to editing it in an Editor! :-)

Hey hey, my my,

Rock and roll can never die!

But probably you just want to surf the net. Maybe edit the odd Microsoft Word document? Go on! Don't be shy! It's not illegal. If it was, they'd have shut their 'asses' down already!

It's a beautiful time to be alive.

Enforced civil war on the desk top. The linux argument will have to keep for later. If there will be any nerds left by that point. Maybe it will just be the geeks...

Once you're gone, you can never come back

My my, hey hey

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux Alternatives

I am keeping my lap top on Win7 until it dies. I have installed and used various flavors of Linux in the enterprise and am very familiar with both it's pros and cons. The biggest con is how unfriendly it is to install and get running properly on anything other than a bare bones vanilla desktop or server. Usually it is incompatibility with the computers video processor, mouse, or hard drives, which hours of searching linux support forums will often turn up nothing that pertains to your particular configuration.

When Win7 started hounding me to go to 10, I even tried installing several flavors of linux on my laptop, No current linux flavors would work satisfactorily. When it dies, I will most likely order a PC built with only Linux installed and fully functional. I simply have no desire to try and follow numerous doomed rabbit trails of Linux forums for some arcane solution that turns out to just make things worse.

My professional life was installing and using Linux, but I can't get it to work on my personal laptop, so there is no threat mom and pop or Joe Lunch Bucket will ever install or use it.

[Vic]

Re: Linux Alternatives

The biggest con is how unfriendly it is to install and get running properly on anything other than a bare bones vanilla desktop or server. Usually it is incompatibility with the computers video processor, mouse, or hard drives

See, that's what's generally known in technical terminology as "a lie".

Linux might be no panacea, but getting it up and running is simply trivial. And whilst you might not get the proprietary video driver you wanted out of the box, you'll not find any of the "incompatibilities" you claimed.

Your FUD is probably 20 years old. I suggest you refresh.

Vic.

[Alumoi]

Re: Linux Alternatives

My professional life was installing and using Linux, but I can't get it to work on my personal laptop, so there is no threat mom and pop or Joe Lunch Bucket will ever install or use it.

Professional? Not able to get a lappy to work under linux? Buddy, booting a linux live CD to erase a windows virus is not installing and using linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Linux Alternatives

"Professional? Not able to get a lappy to work under linux? Buddy, booting a linux live CD to erase a windows virus is not installing and using linux."

A CD seriously? Oh Gwandad...

People WANT Windows 10. It is just the Luddites like yourself that is holding it back. Oh don't install it on your machine, because I can't support any release after Windows ME. Seriously.

[Palpy]

Re: Linux Alternatives: difficulty of installing Linux --

-- or, The FUD Strikes Back.

Toshiba Satellite 32-bit, 2006 or -7 vintage.

ASUS netbook, slow Celeron with 2 GB RAM soldered in, not good machine

Lenovo Thinkpad, 2014 vintage -- good machine

Lenovo desktop -- workhorse

Dell Latitude, maybe 2010 -2012 vintage, not sure. Centrino.

Here's the thing: Ubuntu and Mint installed on all these machines without glitches. The installations all took less time and were less troublesome than a Win 7 install. All the drivers were there and worked. They wouldn't work with all possible peripherals, I'm sure (nothing does), but they work with with my printer, digital recorder, cameras, and MP3 player.

And a bunch of other Linux distros worked well too -- not just the big names, but Salix, Manjaro, PCLinux, Elementary, and others.

I have indeed had trouble with a few OSes. A Win 7 install on the off-the-shelf Lenovo workhorse could not find a driver for the network card. I had to boot up a Linux machine and fetch it. Likewise, WattOS had trouble with the ASUS netbook.

AC, I'm not sure what hardware you have trouble with. Certainly not everything is guaranteed to work all the time, with any OS. Or on any machine. My point is, I have not had the problems with Linux that you describe -- not since about 2005, anyway.

[Pompous Git]

Re: Linux Alternatives: difficulty of installing Linux --

My point is, I have not had the problems with Linux that you describe -- not since about 2005, anyway.

Only problem here has been my Lexmark C543dn printer announcing that the waste toner receptacle is full. Doesn't prevent the printer working; it's an annoyance rather than a show stopper.

I've had more problems with Windows drivers in the past than I've had with Linux Mint 17.x.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Linux Alternatives

@AC - you're a troll and a blatant one at that. The door's that way ------>

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Linux Alternatives

I've installed 3 linux mint systems in the last couple of months and a windows 10/7.

Windows 7 on thinkpad. Couldn't find wifi driver, couldn't find ethernet driver, wouldn't authorise because I didn't have a lenovo disk even though I had the valid original key !

Windows 10 - 2 failed attempts to actually update from the nagware. One failed completely. Another got stuck for a day doing updates.

Linux mint - installed and worked immediately on 2/3 systems with all the hardware. One required a kernel update for skylake sound (now fixed with mint 18). Installed bluetooth dongle - failed on windows 10, worked with no need for driver on mint.

No problems with disks, boot, or other hardware on mint. Even my tv usb dongle worked first time with Kaffein, and to my surprise unified remote on android had a linux version which worked for remote controlling my pc. Wake on lan worked first time on mint too - something that was a PITA to get working on windows 10.

Linux has come a LONG way over the last few years. I only use windows 10 for stereoscopic gaming because there is no nvidia 3d driver for linux. The plus side of dual booting with linux for gaming is removing as much stuff as possible from windows 10 to keep spare cpu cycles for gaming - and of course it has less to spy on.

[Chika]

Re: Linux Alternatives

I am keeping my lap top on Win7 until it dies.

No problems with that. I have two machines that will probably do the same thing.

I have installed and used various flavors of Linux in the enterprise and am very familiar with both it's pros and cons.

Good to know, but bear in mind that installing enterprise distros can be different to installing home setups. It really depends on which distro you go for - I find that distros like CentOS, openSUSE and Mint can be quite friendly. Other folk have their preferences too; some of the installations give a lot more control than others. I think that Mint has gained such a reputation among newer devotees because you can click through it and accept the defaults a lot more than I, personally, would like.

The biggest con is how unfriendly it is to install and get running properly on anything other than a bare bones vanilla desktop or server. Usually it is incompatibility with the computers video processor, mouse, or hard drives, which hours of searching linux support forums will often turn up nothing that pertains to your particular configuration.

Ah yes. Now I can see this to some extent - using Linux on a bleeding edge system can sometimes be a problem as you describe - but it has been a long time since I came up against a system that absolutely hated Linux and could not support a drive, a GPU, a mouse or whatnot. You'd need to be a lot more specific about exactly what you were trying to use as some devices can be a pain, even in Windows 7.

When Win7 started hounding me to go to 10, I even tried installing several flavors of linux on my laptop, No current linux flavors would work satisfactorily.

Fair enough, but again you are being deliberately vague. Which distros? What laptop configuration? Define "work satisfactorily". I've installed Linux on any number of laptops with no problems but I would never dare to say that what was there worked "satisfactorily" unless the person using the laptop told me one way or another. The same applies for Windows.

When it dies, I will most likely order a PC built with only Linux installed and fully functional.

Good luck with that, though I suspect that you may find increasing numbers of Linux preloads in the future. Personally I only ever had one preload which was so bad that I wiped it and loaded my own choice instead.

I simply have no desire to try and follow numerous doomed rabbit trails of Linux forums for some arcane solution that turns out to just make things worse.

Fair enough. My own thought is that Linux evangelists can do more harm than good, so I always take them with several helpings of salt. That doesn't mean that you can't find the one that's right for you, but it can mean that you need to do a bit of homework rather than rely on the rantings of a Linux distro evangelist.

My professional life was installing and using Linux, but I can't get it to work on my personal laptop, so there is no threat mom and pop or Joe Lunch Bucket will ever install or use it.

My professional life also included Linux installation and administration. The first lesson I learned, however, is that Linux is NOT a specific distro; it's all of them. I tend to use openSUSE more than any other distro but that doesn't mean that I'm above going to see what is going on with other distros and sometimes picking up on things they are doing that are better than what I have. I'm also not afraid to fail or even admit error or defeat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you sir for doing the good work

I hope some tech wizard out there can compile a list of all the websites Microsoft surreptitiously phones home to, be it for Windows updates or telemetry data collection,

And come up with an easy, user-friendly tool to block them. Preferably without a need to tweak the HOSTS file.

[Chika]

Re: Thank you sir for doing the good work

I have something I used on my Windows 7 boxen for that. It goes like this:-

REM --- Block Routes

echo Blocking Routes...

route -p add 23.218.212.69 MASK 255.255.255.255 0.0.0.0

route -p add 65.55.108.23 MASK 255.255.255.255 0.0.0.0

route -p add 65.39.117.230 MASK 255.255.255.255 0.0.0.0

route -p add 134.170.30.202 MASK 255.255.255.255 0.0.0.0

route -p add 137.116.81.24 MASK 255.255.255.255 0.0.0.0

route -p add 204.79.197.200 MASK 255.255.255.255 0.0.0.0

echo - done

It's part of Killcrap, a bit of code I put together from a couple of other users' code. You can find it at http://mistie710.livejournal.com/110407.html though I'd also advise that you see http://pastebin.com/vEcT76aQ for a more up-to-date version by one of the original authors.

[Charles 9]

Re: Thank you sir for doing the good work

But I bet you the addresses are part and parcel with the security updates, meaning blocking the telemetry means blocking the security updates which means you leave yourself open to pwnage.

[Anonymous South African Coward]

Buggrit millenium hand and shrimp

Tried to upgrade a freshly installed Win7 PC (legal licence, physical hardware) to Win10 - seems that when you REALLY do want the upgrade, it will play silly buggers and refuse to install.

Tempers fuggit, send in Mrs Ogg, Weatherwax and Greebo to sort this tomfoolery out.

[Zakhar]

Les c... ça ose tout...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMzgMva5ekk

That summarizes pretty much all of it!

Thank you to Michel Audiard.

[dwonk786]

Not an appropriate comment.

This is not an "official" comment. I did not read the article it is attached to. I came here to make a brief rant.

*****

Windows 8.1 was just fine with me, and I am DEEPLY aggravated by being FORCED to use the giant Pile of Shit known as Windows 10.

*****

Again, my apologies to "The Register".

[Anonymous Coward]

Such a shame they are making the final push

When so many have already pulled the chain and washed their hands.

[Lloyd]

My personal favourite piece of W10 functionality is

The W10 uninstall. I don't want Candy Crush thanks, or half of the other crud you decided to chuck on there, so I uninstall it only to have Windows 10 reinstall it. From what I've seen written on boards by multitudes of others this is standard behaviour, sorry MS but you're only having one machine, the others are all staying W7.

[Slx]

I know several people who've either switched to Linux or Macs as a direct result of this campaign.

While I know Apple is now as cool as Mom Corp, they must be falling around laughing as Microsoft basically sends a % of its user base straight into the arms of an awaiting Apple Store "genius" waiting with his or her credit card terminal.

It's fantastic news for Linux though if it's going to drive up mainstream desktop use and make it a much more viable platform.

[Thatguyfromthatforum]

If my recent degree group is anything to go by, we started off:

90% ms

10% Apple

Finished after 3 years :30% Apple

50% Linux (most dual booting with some of us totally moving over)

20% pure Windows

[dwonk786]

Honestly, Apple deserves praise, comparatively.

I've been complaining a lot about operating systems. In all fairness to Apple, I confess that, due to my God-awful Toshiba $1000 Windows-10-pre-installed laptop that weighs about 50 pounds and is slower than my old Kaypro II, and to the highly suspect Chromebook 2 that I've been using for a year, I CONFESS that yesterday I reluctantly set up the 27" iMac that they gave me for free. So, thanks, Apple! You guys rock!

[adam payne]

Clicks do not notify me again and then presses it again when the screen comes up again after apparently forgetting I chose not to be notified again.

[anonymous boring coward]

"Clicks do not notify me again and then presses it again when the screen comes up again after apparently forgetting I chose not to be notified again."

Well, what a MASSIVE surpise!

Who would have thought that MS could accidentally cause this kind of unfortunate issue?

Never happened before...

[Anonymous Coward]

The amount of Linux Mint shills and Apple 'geniuses' on here is unreal. Bottom line is you want to run proper software you need an Windows 10 installation. Windows 7 / 8 will be a security nightmare in a few months. Only enterprise addition will be getting patched home (l)users will be left to wither on the vine.

People need to EMBRACE the change. Just because you can't work out why the icon on the start menu is changing doesn't make it a bad thing. You will be the same people that held off from using Windows 7

[Pompous Git]

Bottom line is you want to run proper software you need an Windows 10 installation.

OK smart-arse, how do you continue in business with a vinyl sign-cutter when the driver is incompatible with W10 and the manufacturer has no intention of releasing one? How do I continue using the entertainment PC to record and watch shows off-line when there's no Windows Media Centre and the software that came with the TV capture card won't work on W10 (or W7 or W8 for that matter?).

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, concerning the sign cutter, you're in a dilemma. It's like the firm using a lathe controlled by an XP machine because it uses a custom ISA card. If the only OS's the cutter supports are insecure, you pretty much have to take your chances. If it's networked, it can get pwned. If not, it can get pwned by whatever device you use to transfer the cutting designs. If the manufactuer won't release Win10 drivers, look and see if a competitor is doing so and see if a threat to defeat makes them cave. If they can at least get to Win8, it should work in 10 (similar model).

As for Media Center, have you tried Kodi or MediaPortal?

[Pompous Git]

Well, concerning the sign cutter, you're in a dilemma

....

As for Media Center, have you tried Kodi or MediaPortal?

Not my dilemma, but one foisted on an acquaintance by MS. Unsurprisingly, he wasn't impressed when MS decided he needed to be put out of business.

Why on Earth would I try Kodi or MediaPortal? I've only ever been pwned by MS and have no intention of ever allowing that to happen again. Rather than having to continually fend off their attacks I installed Cinnamon Mint and relevant software. Lot less hassle and after 12 months I'm still happy with my decision.

[Charles 9]

"Why on Earth would I try Kodi or MediaPortal? I've only ever been pwned by MS and have no intention of ever allowing that to happen again. Rather than having to continually fend off their attacks I installed Cinnamon Mint and relevant software. Lot less hassle and after 12 months I'm still happy with my decision."

Lucky you. But a serious gamer like me doesn't have that option. Serious gamers don't do underpowered consoles, so for us it's basically Windows or Bust. And once DX12 take over, it'll be Windows 10 or bust.

[Pompous Git]

Lucky you. But a serious gamer like me doesn't have that option. Serious gamers don't do underpowered consoles, so for us it's basically Windows or Bust. And once DX12 take over, it'll be Windows 10 or bust.

Fortunately The Git is a happy gamer, rather than serious. Especially happy since the only game he plays is Civ V and apart from an early problem with the FOSS drivers for his video card solved by DLing better ones from ATI he has no problems. Sadly, W10 let him down in this regard. Having a dialog box popping up every few minutes to inform him that he had "a graphics problem" was sufficiently annoying to kill any interest he might have had. Swapping the card for the spare (same ATI gpu) didn't solve the problem.

OTOH The Gitling like you "needs" W10. He also "needs" a 2 TB SSD to store his games in readily available form. He told me he got sick of moving them between his HDD and old SSD. I believe his video adapter cost considerably more than my PC.

[Updraft102]

Someone who enthusiastically believes in something is not a 'shill.' A shill is someone that is paid or otherwise compensated for pretending to be one of the people who enthusiastically believe in something. Perhaps you're confused because there are no people in these discussions who really do enthusiastically believe in Windows 10, so everyone who claims to be actually IS a shill.

Second, Windows 7 will be updated until 2020, and 8 will be until 2023, regardless of whether it is an enterprise edition or not. If Microsoft fails in that obligation, they're setting themselves up for lawsuits for breach of contract, not to mention demonstrating once again that one should not trust Microsoft.

Finally, things that can be counted don't come in amounts. They come in numbers. On a beach, you'd find a certain amount of sand, and a certain number of seashells. Ok?

[Thatguyfromthatforum]

As a recent cs grad I spent the first year using slurp software via dreamspark (web portal for free software, like visual studio etc) due to the immense cluster fuck which was over half their software, including:

Oracle 11g not working on any student with the student version of 8.1

Visual studio working and after 2 months (while we whittled away on projects) to then behold a message saying "please enter your license key" (which was from their own student system) and telling us "this product is no longer supported".

Problems running unity for our gaming module

Problems migrating from 7 to Windows 8.1

Downloads from their store not installing after download

No less than 3 separate re installs of Windows

My wifi suddenly not working (ideal when renting student digs and have no access to the router because it's in the ceiling)

Office 365 not working 365

Our one drive free storage being cut down massively

I and many others moved over to Debian with wine or just bought MacBooks. I chose to go the Debian route and I wouldn't get back to Windows if you paid me. Soulless, lifeless, difficult bastard of a software company.

[dwonk786]

This will be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to believe, but...

This is very interesting to me and I want to record it. I am not yet prepared to make comments.

Just minutes ago I was slogging along on my unbelievably HORRIBLE Toshiba Windows 10 laptop. I was just printing out some bridge hands. And RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES the morons started deleting data files, including a couple of hands, from Dropbox, which was insecure because of Microsoft in the first place. So I recorded it.

(I finally set up my 27" 2010 iMac Apple gave me for free, so I really didn't care much about Windows anymore. I'd learned to survive on OS Apple ostrich or whatever. That Microsoft is going down hard is already accomplished, though they don't realize it yet.)

THEN I started to write a quick note to my wife to tell her I'd nailed the bastards an they deleted the letter as I was writing when my purpose was discernable.

Do they take their clients for idiots?

...

...

I'm asking.

[Pompous Git]

Re: This will be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to believe, but...

Sounds like you've been infected with Back Orifice (or whatever the equivalent is these days).

[Updraft102]

I would be more likely to pay if I could have nearly all of the new "features" of Windows 10 (which were so perfectly described by Bombastic Bob in the first few posts in this discussion) removed rather than having new ones added. The only Win 10 feature I can think of offhand that I would want to keep would be DirectX 12; otherwise, a clone of Win 7 would be perfect.

Given the relative popularity of both of them, that could be a good angle for them. Get everyone thinking that the horror known as Windows 10 is their only choice, and then let them know that they can have their much-appreciated Windows 7 experience... for only a few dollars/pounds more. They could make money by riding the wave of opposition to their own "flagship" product.

At one point, I would have considered paying more to avoid all of the new stuff they want to stick in there, though a subscription model would have always been a bit of a stretch. It's a little late now, as I have already seen how little I need MS (did I mention that the one game I play regularly works awesomely well in WINE? No? Well, the one game I play regularly works awesomely in WINE. Now I have).

There's a saying in marketing... something like not giving your customers the opportunity to discover they like someone else's product even more than yours. Why should I stick with a paid product from a vendor who wants me to be locked into their product line when there is a free option that works? It may not be as polished as Windows, but it's not engineered to serve someone else's agenda at my expense.

[Anonymous Coward]

"There's a saying in marketing... something like not giving your customers the opportunity to discover they like someone else's product even more than yours. "

But that doesn't apply in a captive market. And most of Microsoft's customers are going to be captive in some way shape or form, either due to dependence on Windows-only software or dependence on peripherals and the like that aren't supported nearly as well and/or as easily as it is on Windows.

[Anonymous Coward]

would if I could, as would others

Well I tried upgrading Win 7 but it ran for a while and then reported restoring windows 7, do I have the energy and time to try and resolve why microsofts upgrade decided to bork on a bog standard pc? You'd have thought if a pc passes all the pre-installation tests the upgrade should work or fix any issues before starting or at least tell you what the issue was/what to do.

Similarly I know of people who have been informed their PC can't be upgraded but the nagware continues to nag.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: would if I could, as would others

"Well I tried upgrading Win 7 but it ran for a while and then reported restoring windows 7"

You just had a very lucky escape! Be happy!

[quxinot]

KB:3173040

3173040 is the guilty party for adding a fullscreen wtf.

This makes my current "run each time you check updates" look like this, with many thanks to the poster that provided the original batch file, i've just added to try to keep it up to date:

@echo on

wusa /uninstall /kb:2902907 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:2922324 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:2923545 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:2952664 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /KB:2976978 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:2977759 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:2990214 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:2999226 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3014460 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3015249 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3021917 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3035583 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3044374 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3046480 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3050265 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3050267 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3065987 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3065988 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3068707 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3075851 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3075853 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3083324 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3083325 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3083710 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3083711 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3097877 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3104460 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3112336 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3112343 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3123862 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3133865 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3135445 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3135449 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3138612 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3138615 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3139929 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3146449 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:3173040 /norestart /quiet

wusa /uninstall /kb:971033 /norestart /quiet

pause

echo - done.

[Bob Camp]

Re: KB:3173040

You don't have to do all that. The two registry entries suggested by Microsoft to block all this work great. This is supposed to be an IT forum, right? Why is everybody whining and complaining about something they could easily fix?

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351

I agree that we shouldn't have to do this, but it's simple enough to do. I mean, I also shouldn't have to spend 10 hours hunting down just the right version of driver for my graphics adapter for Linux Mint. I also shouldn't have to buy a Lightning cable once every six months.

[quxinot]

Re: KB:3173040

Bob, I should also point out that this prevents/uninstalls the telemetry and such as well. Sadly, there's more wrong with windows 10 than just very existing; the developers insisting on making money on their customer base after the initial sale has spread into older Microsoft products like 7, 8, and so on.

[Roland6]

Re: KB:3173040

Thanks for locating the KB number for this update.

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Payments

I dont think we have to worry about Windows moving to a subscription scheme because all techy people if they find it irksome will move to Linux or even Apple, (if not already there) and a proportion of ordinary folks will eventually too. MS may still do it and reap the consequences.

However, in the olden days when Linux was a bit too esoteric for most folks I only changed Windows versions when I bought / assembled a new PC (preferring clean installs) and usually then only when my favourite games required more umph than the current machine (every 2 to 3 years). But, I did buy the new version, with disks and everything, considering this as just par for the course. This is sort of a crude subscription service no? Now, it appears they want the money more often without offering a new version, paying for updates only - but it all ultimately depends on the price point to work.

Oddly, when I sell my old PC I normally do so with Linux installed, not a problem for me or the buyers. Have a drink and calm down everyone.

[Dahhah6o]

[Robert Downey voice]

"Everybody knows you never go full screen."

[Anonymous Coward]

so how do I er...

I've tried everything and it wont do it here.. i've tried everything:

Last login: Tue Jul 5 12:31:33 on console

x:~ stendec$ sh install nsa-direct_line.sh

/usr/bin/install: /usr/bin/install: cannot execute binary file

zen:~ zaphod$

what am i doing wrong ?

[Ed-99]

For an original Windows 10 key, I actually used the website licence-activation dot com to buy an original licence key, and it did work perfectly.