'I urge everyone to fight back' – woman wins $10k from Microsoft over Windows 10 misery

A California woman has won $10,000 from Microsoft after a sneaky Windows 10 update wrecked the computer she used to run her business. Now she's urging everyone to follow suit and "fight back." Teri Goldstein – who manages a travel agency in Sausalito, just north of San Francisco – told The Register she landed the compensation …

[Steve Davies 3]

Let the lawsuits begin

Personally, I hope they get hit with a few hundred thousand of these cases next week.

Windows 10 is a virus and needs to be stomped out without delay.

I know that there are people how post here that are MS fans/shills/trolls but just think carefully for a moment.

If W10 can screw up someone business like this then how many others are there out there eh?

Remember that this user is not a techie like most of us. They are more like the 'bog standard user'. This sort of thing really should not happen in this day and age.,

[Notas Badoff]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"Windows 10 is a virus and needs to be stomped out without delay."

It's more like a fungus. I let my main PC out of sight for a few moments and it came back with a truly grody screen. Now it just bitches all day and keeps requiring me to scratch its privates here there and everywhere. Oh I do wish I'd realized there was a limited time to treat it effectively, as now it has a long-term infection.

Ah well, now I maintain a no touching policy, keep the other PCs a minimum of 6 inches away, and I think I've got the necessary prophylactics applied to the rest of them. Oh I do wish I'd listened to the parents talk of not associating with a bad gene pool.

[A Ghost]

While the party invites stop

Microsoft is just another phoney fungus when it come down to it. It wants to get invited to the party, but it's not really a fungi.

Sorry.

That crud on my escape key, however, really is a biological threat!

[Bob Vistakin]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

Now you mention it, there was a weather forecast a while back which I'm sure some convoluted reason could be concocted for a business to rely on, which was royally screwed by exactly the same thing.

Straight face icon in case this actually turns out to happen.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

A fungus

Brain-eating Amoeba Naegleria fowleri: " The core antimicrobial treatment consists of antifungal drug amphotericin B". Nom Nom!

[bdam]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

So you see, your honour, at breakfast I bit into the slice of toast at the exact moment the windows 10 pop up appeared on the TV screen in my kitchen as I was watching the weather forecast, at which point like anyone I could not resist the urge to laugh uncontrollably. I could not breathe. I thrashed about the kitchen choking, knocking the TV, laptop, a few smartphones and a few expensive porcelain ornaments to the floor before my wife performed the heimlich on me, in the process dislocating her neck requiring expensive private medical attention.

All this came to $10,001 exactly. A cheque will be fine, thanks.

[MR J]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

My in-law thinks that facebook is spying on him, and selling his phone numbers to Nigerian scammers.

My in-law also thinks that "Updating - please do not turn off your computer" is easily fixed by holding the power button down - as that will let it restart.

When his mail provider goes tits up (few times a month) the server rejects his password. So he thinks he'll try other passwords to see if it will fix the issue - thus meaning I need to go back to the house to put the correct password in when it is all said and done.

While I agree that W10 shouldn't be force installed, and I also agree that W10 should have rigorous checks to make sure that the hardware is complaint. She was running a "Home" copy of software for a "Work" Laptop - nothing that would give good business uptime. The offer of $150 seems fair to me - But Microsoft should have also suggested to her that she simply revert to Windows7. So to me they did fail her, but not $10,000 worth of fail.

A "Few Hundred Thousand" would equate to $3 billion dollars being paid out to people, a bit excessive for a OS upgrade isn't it?. While the OS does have issues, you need to bear in mind that the people who use tech are getting dumber by the day, so a new OS that locks things down more and upgrades problems without waiting for users to do it has to be a good thing.

[Triggerfish]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

Sorry but why should what version she was running originally have a bearing on the case? I agree maybe win10 home is not the best for enterprise, maybe it makes less difference on a small one man band though, since you do not need all the extra networking.

Regardless she was obviously running a business on it. After Win 10 she was not.

Also if people have not asked for it then it should not be forced on them. 3 billion thats not the price of an OS, thats the price of arrogance and trying to force an upgrade that turns you the customer into a asset to monetise.

[Chorotega]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

Microsoft should get shafted over this. Sneaky tactics like starting the upgrade when people clicked the X button are not the way a professional organisation should operate.

[gregthecanuck]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

I think my dad got burned by this one. Panicked phone call a few weeks ago because his computer was upgraded - swears he didn't consent.

This upgrade process is overly aggressive. MS should be taken to task for this one so they don't try anything as stupid as this again. Unleash the Kraken!

[Pompous Git]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

A "Few Hundred Thousand" would equate to $3 billion dollars being paid out to people, a bit excessive for a OS upgrade isn't it?.

Not really when you consider that MS have decided to remove Windows Media Centre and W10 doesn't recognise your TV capture device. If they want to cripple your computer to that extent, then surely they should pay for the fix.

[joshimitsu]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

They spent hours trying to revert her back to Win7 but failed, because they'd screwed up the PC so badly.

[mswin10]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

I totally agree and If I was a judge i would of thrown this out as soon as she mentioned she had never heard of Windows 10 until the so called forced upgrade. What planet is she on windows 7 home for a business computer hope she does not have customer details stuck on it I'd be very worried. As for not hearing about Windows 10 its splashed everywhere you cant go online without seeing a multitude of references to windows10 good or bad and that was before it was fully released and that's not including the media. Just another compensation freak

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

You are living in a bubble. A PC freak bubble. Many normal people don't give a rats arse about Windows Whatever.

[Jos V]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

@mswin10, you lost me at your feckin "would of". Bugger off.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"you lost me at your feckin "would of". Bugger off"

Agree. If you want to play with grown-ups, lay off the baby tounge.

[elDog]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"A "Few Hundred Thousand" would equate to $3 billion dollars being paid out to people". I bet it could be a lot more than that. And the penalties could also be assessed much higher for criminal negligence.

That would be a wonderful stimulus to the economies. And if the taxing authorities take a slice of the pie then it might help some national budget deficits.

Microsoft robbed from the people. Let it pay its penance. Preferably from certain past/present CEOs and lousy architects' benefits.

[9Rune5]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"Remember that this user is not a techie like most of us. "

MS' fault was trying to help. This woman should have hired a technician to supervise her computer(s) if it was that critical to her line of business.

Or what does she do when her car needs maintenance? Give GM a call and have them remotely supervise an oil change? How vital is her PC to her business compared to her car? How much money does she spend on keeping her car in working order?

Win7 is getting old. Nobody here is really interested in having more zombie-operating systems out there that no longer receive security updates. It is better to brick these systems sooner rather than later. If that action pushes more punters to adopt Linux, then so be it.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"Win7 is getting old. Nobody here is really interested in having more zombie-operating systems out there that no longer receive security updates. It is better to brick these systems sooner rather than later."

Windows 7 is still supported, isn't it?

You MS fanboys really do enjoy a good rogering.

[9Rune5]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"Windows 7 is still supported, isn't it?"

Absolutely. I still run it as my main OS myself.

But... It will eventually run out of support. If MS follows through with their threat, then after July 29th (?) the upgrade will no longer be free. That means that an upgrade at some point will be a costlier affair and the stragglers will be even less enticed to upgrade.

So... As I said... We end up with a new wave of zombie PCs no longer receiving security updates. Botnet bonanza etc..

Let them install Linux for all I care. But my main message was this: Do not run your business on any software/hardware that is not under adult supervision. I strongly feel the user in question was heading for a disaster regardless.

It will be interesting to see what will happen with W10 in the future. It seems MS wants people to stay current from now on. That IMO will help ensure that most users stay more current wrt security updates. And that, IMNSHO is a very good thing.

[Pompous Git]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

If MS follows through with their threat, then after July 29th (?) the upgrade will no longer be free. That means that an upgrade at some point will be a costlier affair and the stragglers will be even less enticed to upgrade.

When MS pushed ~30 GB of unwanted shite onto my PCs about a year ago, I upgraded to Linux Mint for "free". OK, it cost me a blank DVD and considerably less bandwidth than MS stole. Still running W7 and some necessary apps in a VM, but mostly spend my time in a vastly superior OS that has never nagged me to upgrade.

[Darryl]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

Yay! Another unrelated car analogy. Does GM remotely remove the engine from her car and substitute another one that doesn't run properly without her consent or knowledge?

So she should be paying a 'techie' to ensure that MS doesn't foist Win10 on her computer? And how exactly is she supposed to know this? Sounds like her computer was working just fine before

[9Rune5]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"So she should be paying a 'techie' to ensure that MS doesn't foist Win10 on her computer?"

If she is using her computer for serious business stuff: YES, BLOODY HELL YES!

Kind of... obvious.

Many people buy cars for holidays and fun activities. Most of them still resort to professionals for even the simplest of maintenance. Imagine running a business that depends on cars (be it a taxi service or similar) and then not resort to professionals when servicing your fleet of cars. Sounds clever? No? Why is it any different when it comes to computers? (regardless of OS)

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

She called "a techie" called MICROSOFT!

After all, they created Windows. And she bought it from them directly or indirectly.

It's like calling BMW when your BMW breaks.

She couldn't have known that she was supposed to call some other self proclaimed expert posting here.

[Jeffrey Nonken]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

Blaming the victim always works!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

"Remember that this user is not a techie like most of us. "

With enlightened comments like "Windows 10 is a fungus", maybe that isn't a bad thing?

[[e-mail]]

Re: Let the lawsuits begin

Yes I know this is a two year old thread but I am wondering something. If Teri Goldstein won the case against Microsoft I suspect she had Win7 upgraded to her computer that was ancient compared the technology available at the time. She probably had a Pentium 4 2003 circa that had Win7 upgraded from WinXP or even older. How did I come to that conclusion? Elementary my dear Watson.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=1CBB85B52E3A40AD8F5EF679926D09DE15422D2F&thid=OIP.EeDSp_LbERGrnDm6g46iFQAAAA&exph=126&expw=392&q=Dr.+Watson+Windows+XP&selectedindex=0&vt=0&eim=1,6

I don't see how people in the industry couldn't get her computer run smoothly unless there was something fundamentally flawed with the computer she was using. One more thing, Win7 is no longer supported come January 2020.

Incidentally I tried to use WinXP and it is completely useless on Internet Explorer and Google Chrome 2 years after it was no longer supported.

[ma1010]

GOOD FOR HER!

It's about time MS got held accountable for what they've done to so many people's computers WITHOUT their consent with this sneaky, malware-style "upgrade" to Win X. I used to like MS and used Windows since Windows 386, stopping, like so many others, with Windows 7.

As I was reading the story, I was sure MS would appeal the judgment, and was surprised to read they dropped the appeal. I think it was from fear of the Streisand Effect. After all, if more people hear of this victory over MS, they might want to file suits in Small Claims court, also. In that case, I say SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS!

Maybe if enough victims of MS sue and win, they might even have to dial down the arrogance a little and actually try to HELP their customers, like they did back in the 90s? Nah, just dreaming on that one, no doubt.

[Danny 14]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

Indeed. Sounded like she actually deserved the payout too rather than usual ambulance chasers. Good on her.

[Wilbur1]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

Dupl post

[Dan 55]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

"Dupl post"

You've been doing tech support since 1984, you can spy a troll every time, but you don't know when you've double posted.

[Kubla Cant]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

Dupl post

And that means dupl downvotes.

[Wilbur1]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

I think this person should have ANYTHING pertaining to Microsoft taken from any device he/she uses, and be banned from using it again, EVER.

I've been doing tech support since 1984, and I can spy a troll every time.

[hplasm]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

"I think this person should have ANYTHING pertaining to Microsoft taken from any device he/she uses, and be banned from using it again, EVER"

She should be so lucky!

You have flecks of spittle on your screen. Did you know?

[Triggerfish]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

I've been doing tech support since 1984, and I can spy a troll every time.

Just joined, two posts both on this thread? I think I spy something...

[Mark 85]

Re: GOOD FOR HER!

You really should use the troll icon since we don't have a paid shill one. You joined just to post this...?

[tfewster]

Now the precedent has been set ...

... unleash the class-action lawyers!

Eww, I feel a bit dirty even joking about that.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

"Eww, I feel a bit dirty even joking about that."

So you should, given that the crux of the article was that the small claims court is the way to go.

[Mark 85]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

I know it's a joke, but historically all a class action suit does is make the lawyers rich. The people get basically zilch. As others are posting... small claims court is the way to go.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

Until Microsoft finds a way to get to the small claims judges...

[elDog]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

They (MS) will. At least in the Land of the Brave and firearm dependent, most court systems, most local, county, state, and US gov't systems are dependent on MS.

Now that MS is pushing Azure-based solutions on everybody, surreptitious updates are a thing of the past. They are the present and the future.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

"historically all a class action suit does is make the lawyers rich."

I think the parties, in diminishing amounts they have to gain are:

1. Lawyers - they get big costs.

2. Companies - only one case to fight.

3. Plaintiffs - peanuts if they win.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

Class action lawsuits do make lawyers rich but if the award is large enough and suit is well known enough losing one can be financial and public relations disaster. Actually, I would like to see both class action and small claims court cases. One for the media and the others to kill Slurp with thousands of cuts.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

The point wouldn't be to make a nice killing for the plaintiffs. The point would be to kick MS in the nuts in a very public way and get it to answer WTF it thinks it's doing installing updates on the computers of people who don't want them and didn't ask for them.

Even if there's no immediate financial damage through loss of income (etc), there's a principle at stake - on no sane planet does a corporation have the right to force software on potential users without their express permission.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

The point wouldn't be to make a nice killing for the plaintiffs. The point would be to kick MS in the nuts in a very public way and get it to answer WTF it thinks it's doing installing updates on the computers of people who don't want them and didn't ask for them.

Even if there's no immediate financial damage through loss of income (etc), there's a principle at stake - on no sane planet does a corporation have the right to force software on potential users without their express permission.

Oh, but there's so much more fun in the works. Besides civil litigation there is in my opinion also a wide open possibility of criminal litigation (unauthorised changes of a computer - from what I read, those updowngrades were not always authorised by the user), and that's something YOU don't have to do, you just have to complain to the authorities. A single complaint will be ignored, but if enough people complain it becomes a matter that can no longer be ignored for political reasons, at which point all hell will break loose for Microsoft. The fuse has been lit already, all you need to do now is buy popcorn for when it blows up..

As for your on no sane planet comment, I have some bad news..

[SImon Hobson]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

> Besides civil litigation there is in my opinion also a wide open possibility of criminal litigation (unauthorised changes of a computer - from what I read, those updowngrades were not always authorised by the user), and that's something YOU don't have to do, you just have to complain to the authorities.

And in my case, after trying an informal approach, got a "so what" response from the local Police - I haven't had time to gather some paperwork together and kick up a stink. The person answering my emails simply took the attitude that "it's an upgrade, there's ways to control it, your complaint is merely with Microsofts policies - take it up with them".

When I pointed out that the law is very clear, I'd made actions which would invalidate any presumed consent, and the upgrade does in fact remove functionality - so it's an offence - I stpped getting replies.

[Alan Mackenzie]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

Most people aren't interested in "kicking MS in the nuts in a very public way". They just want to get their work (and/or play) done. Downvote from me!

[Updraft102]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

I'd be more interested in giving MS a black eye. That would be more than good enough for me!

[dukeofbrookhaven]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

>historically all a class action suit does is make the lawyers rich. The people get basically zilch

I personally hope for the class action suit, because:

(a) it would set a very public example of "dark patterns" (tricking people to follow the preference of the large corporation)

(b) it's the only chance of getting Microsoft's attention that "opt-in" is the least costly way to do business, and

(c) the sweet irony that -- particularly in the US -- class action suits are usually opt-out, so most people will stay in the class action the same way the stayed in the Windows 10 upgrade path

[Mike Shepherd]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

In the UK, a judgment in a small claims court may not be cited as a precedent. This may or may not be true in other jurisdictions.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

"In the UK, a judgment in a small claims court may not be cited as a precedent. This may or may not be true in other jurisdictions."

I suspect though, that if the various courts see 10000 identical claims they will look just a bit at other judgements. Just to save time..

[Danny 14]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

No. It becomes a complex case and gets bounced immediate upwards thus making it expensive foe the small guy.

UK small claims also needs arbitration now and can drag on quite some time. You can also use lawyers on both sides but judges frown on too much legalese. I suppose this might tie MS up for some time though.

[mswin10]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

In the UK the Judge would have told her if you did not hear about Windows 10 before it upgraded then you would be blatantly lying.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

Most people are not closely following tech and what Slurp is doing unlike most on tech sites. They are vaguely aware that something is going on but are not following Winbloat release schedules. Also, many do not normally change OSes except when they buy new kit. So, it is very likely she was not paying attention to the Winbloat releases and was not really aware what was going on with Slurp.

Most people USE computers as a tool and as long as it is doing what they need it for they will largely ignore the antics of Slurp, Chocolate Factory, Chipzilla, Little Chipzilla, etc. They are not planning on replacing or upgrading their kit so they are not paying attention. I would not be surprised if many could not tell you how many cores the cpu has or what software versions they have.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Now the precedent has been set ...

In the UK the Judge would have told her if you did not hear about Windows 10 before it upgraded then you would be blatantly lying.

It has sod all to do with "hearing about it", it has to do with the inability to prevent it from happening by the average end user because every option triggers an install, even the close box. That is misleading, and happens to be the same technique used by virus installers. I can't see why Microsoft should get a free pass where virus authors go to jail for it.

[Efros]

Good for her

M$ lawyers should be thinking about sorting this sort of thing out before it gets to court, $10,090 or even 10 times that is chickenfeed compared to the bad publicity.

[Captain DaFt]

Re: Good for her

Bad publicity

you

say?

And that was just a two minute search of web comics.

Word on the street (internet),"Windows 10 will fuck you up!"

[Charles 9]

Re: Good for her

AND THEY DON'T CARE.

It's not like you've got anywhere ELSE to go with your PC if you want to keep using all the software you're used to (especially games). It's what's called a captive market.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Good for her

AND THEY DON'T CARE.

It's not like you've got anywhere ELSE to go with your PC if you want to keep using all the software you're used to (especially games). It's what's called a captive market.

From a domestic perspective, maybe. From a business/enterprise perspective, $10k per station makes a nice sum - it may even be enough to fund a transition. Also don't forget the publicity impact on Microsoft. They may have cozied up to fellow end user abuser Google, but they won't be able to keep that one out of the search results.

[Dan 55]

Re: Good for her

They will care if a load of installs costs them $10k each.

[Will Godfrey]

Smart Lady

Didn't so much as put a toe out of line and gave them nothing to fight back with. As for Microsoft's appeal - I think someone (at last) told them they were in deep doodoo.

[Someone Else]

Re: Smart Lady

OK, but what about 10,000 times that? Or 100,000 times that? Now, to paraphrase Everett Dirksen, you're talking about some real money!

[MJI]

Re: Smart Lady

See her picture, she does give the impression doesn't she?

Don't mess her about

[Sir Runcible Spoon]

I feel like Nostrodamus

I made this suggestion last month :)

Told you so

There were a couple of down-voters too, :P

[DryBones]

Re: I feel like Nostrodamus

You're not alone.

:)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I feel like Nostrodamus

I think a couple of people beat you to it, maybe even myself when I examined how MS could protect itself against court cases. Especially in the UK, their exclusions clauses are not in effect due to the Unfair Contract Terms part of the recently updated UK consumer laws.

For business you'd use a different approach - no terms can excuse a breach of the Computer Misuse Act, and to me their approach (and attitude) left them wide open for prosecution. After that (which you don't have to pay for as it's criminal) you follow up with a civil suit to recover damages and costs incurred for eradicating that pest from your systems, using the criminal case as evidence. Takes time, though.

I have repeatedly expressed regret jumping ship earlier. I would have had *serious* fun taking them to court again and again. That may still happen, actually, as they also have another problem in Luxembourg - I'll update El Reg if and when it happens.

[simbr]

I'm at least partially with Microsoft here, since we've only seen one side of the story and there are problems like being unknowingly enrolled in a beta program; even if that were possibly, IIRC all the preview builds had to be installed manually - only the final release could be downloaded automatically through Windows update and as people are well aware, it wasn't exactly quiet about it (although I seem to recall there was a brief period where it installed for some users without intervention? Can't recall if that turned out to be user error)

[Adrian 4]

Whether it installs without user intervention or not, it's clearly designed to encourage uninformed users to accept Microsoft's 'recommended update'. They really can't just ignore the consequences (and the same is true for Google's unasked-for upgrades to Android tablets, and Apple's installation of an unfinished maps application).

Consent isn't the same thing as informed consent, and the vendors don't necessarily understand all the side effects of their updates, let alone the users. This doesn't mean they shouldn't do updates, but it does mean the vendors should be completely responsible for them, ultimately being able to allow them to restore the user's system to its condition before they started.

[Mark 85]

Then by your statements, everyone who loaded Win 10 made a user error? MS was very sneaky with this and still is. To treat her the way they did shows the arrogance and how they refuse to take heat for the underhanded way they have done this.

Most users aren't techies. They have no clue except that "updates are good" and necessary. The upgrade to Win10 wasn't necessary from most users perspective. And then to foist an unfinished OS on them... well.. they deserve more than just one person winning.

To hell with the class action suits. That just makes some group of lawyers rich. Do what this lady has done and hit them in small claims court. MS's high priced lawyers will get to sit around, drink their lattes and twiddle their thumbs while cash slowly flows out of the building.

Pissed..? You bet your ass I am. I've not been bitten but way too many friends and relatives have unknowingly been hit with this sneaky malware and I went through hell trying to sort it out for them. And all MS's PR can pump out is how much the users want it and love it... bah.... a pox on them.

</rant>

[Youngone]

I'm at least partially with Microsoft here too.

I do have sympathy for the woman involved, it can be a bit scary for non technical people to be confronted with something unfamiliar on their computer, but I could have fixed this in an afternoon.

1: Copy data off laptop HDD, (removing if necessary and copying from another PC).

2: Reinstall original Win7

3: Disable Win 10 updates.

I have done this twice recently for friends who wound up with Win10 and didn't like it.

[Doctor Syntax]

"I have done this twice recently for friends who wound up with Win10 and didn't like it."

And presumably, the MS techies could have done this. Were they under instructions not to let any user escape the clutches of W10?

[Updraft102]

"And presumably, the MS techies could have done this. Were they under instructions not to let any user escape the clutches of W10?"

Probably.

MS has shown that in its quest to pump up the number of Windows 10 users out there, there is nothing more important. It's willing to risk rendering their own paying customers' machines unbootable if there is even a chance that the upgrade could succeed and add one to the tally. If there were a 9 in 10 chance that a PC would "die on the table," as one MS employee told is sometimes inevitable in these kinds of situations, but only a 1 in 10 chance that the upgrade would succeed, MS absolutely would go for it.

The customer, of course, may have other opinions about what is an acceptable risk, but MS made sure to keep them uninformed of the risks. Was there anything anywhere in the GWX adware or in the Windows Update for Windows 10 that informed customers that their PC "dying on the table" was a distinct possibility, and that they had better have a full backup before proceeding?

We've already seen the GWX adware give the green light on upgrades that were in no way advisable. When MS is telling non-tech people that they should perform this upgrade, they have a duty to inform them of the risks and precautions that should be taken. Those of us that know Windows realize that in-place upgrades are troublesome, and that clean installations are always preferable, and that nothing like this should ever be undertaken without having a backup on hand.

Regular people don't get that. When they see a MS program telling them it's a good idea and that it's fully reversible and your files will all be where you left them, they take that as gospel, and MS knows this.

Of course, that's just for the people who (lacking informed consent) allowed their PC to be upgraded intentionally. Of course there cannot be informed consent when the person is tricked into permitting the upgrade, or if that upgrade just happens!

With all of this, MS has shown that the only thing that matters is the number of devices with Windows 10 installed. They don't need to work well, and they don't need happy owners. MS deserves to see this lawsuit repeated thousands of times.

[Adair]

That's exactly the point - she shouldn't have to have done ANY of those things! Unless she CHOSE to, and could reasonably be expected to know how to - which as an average normal user she almost certainly won't.

This is an operating system, not some bit of junkware, where you hope for the best and take what you get... oh.sorry, it's Windows. But still.

[Darling Petunia]

To block the sneaky 'update' from Win 7 to 10, install free software called "Never 10".

It's the work of a software security expert Steve Gibson, at:

https://www.grc.com/never10.htm

[Richard Boyce]

No need for installation; just run it. You can then delete it. The effect is persistent because it sets registry settings that Microsoft has promised will be effective. If Microsoft reneged on this there would be legal fireworks from businesses which Microsoft still has some respect for.

[Baldy50]

He came up with the little DCOMbobulator program as well.

[Doctor Syntax]

"unknowingly enrolled in a beta program"

AFAICS she was just enrolled in MS's enforced update. It took place last August. However you might be correct in describing it as a beta program.

[Pompous Git]

However you might be correct in describing it as a beta program.

Serious Q: Is W10 out of beta yet?

[Steve Davies 3]

Sorry, you got it wrong

Quote

Serious Q: Is W10 out of beta yet?

Should that not be

Serious Q: Is there any version of Windows that is truly out of beta?

I think the majority here know the answer.

[Sebastian A]

Windows 10 is a continuous beta program though. Just because the changes are made in a production environment (IE everyone's live PC) doesn't make it any less of a beta.

[tom dial]

The suggestion that the plaintiff's system was unknowingly enrolled in the beta program almost certainly is incorrect, but the drift of the article suggest she is unlikely to have the technical knowledge to come up with such a suggestion on her own. The reported problem also seems an unlikely result of such an event, as the failure probably would have occurred much earlier. A more likely explanation, in my opinion, is that a MS tech support agent suggested it, perhaps to divert attention from the fundamental Microsoft error of instituting default and largely non-consensual installation (or installation with poorly informed or implicit consent, which is nearly as bad).

[Adair]

It's about time.

Nothing more to say really.

[David 132]

Who's next?

I would imagine that all those people who were happily using Media Center on Windows Home Premium, until the Windows 10 "upgrade" killed it, would have a REALLY strong case to pursue this kind of action.

IANAL but this trend of vendors retroactively removing product functionality needs to be stopped. For precedent, look what happened to Sony with the recent Linux-on-PS3 settlement.

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: Who's next?

"For precedent, look what happened to Sony with the recent Linux-on-PS3 settlement."

And any of those who got peanuts in the settlement will be looking at this & realising they should have gone with the small claims court.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: Who's next?

I doubt the Linux on PS3 owners can claim to have lost work hours though.

[Baldy50]

Re: Who's next?

Ta for that read the article and agree totally.

Why do they mention 'CNET' in articles, I think all of my family and friends ended up with something nasty off that site?

[Mystic Megabyte]

Re: Who's next?

uBlock Origin does not let me go to CNET, says "Badware" whatever that is.

[Updraft102]

Re: Who's next?

Cnet's download section has been known to wrap the programs it hosts with a layer of adware that installs PUPs (potentially unwanted programs) if you're not careful enough to avoid the dark patterns (attempts to trick you into saying YES when you mean NO).

If that sounds to you like someone else, someone Redmondy, you're not alone.

[phat shantz]

There is no "Lawyer" in "Justice"

Way to go! Cut out the lawyers and take away the nastiest, slimiest weapons that any company has -- especially Redmond -- and let the small-claims courts choke on the line of disgruntled litigants coiling around the block.

I wonder how many it will take before Satya starts listening: 100? 1,000? 10,000?

But wait! There's more!

[Anonymous Coward]

puzzled

so someone who didn't explicitly authorise a Win10 install has been found by a court to have suffered an injury (in a financial sense).

where do we sign up?

[JLV]

Re: puzzled

Ho ho, not so fast. The key here is that a) she didn't agree to upgrade and b) once she did it wouldn't work and impacted her livelihood. That's what made her case winnable and $10k worthy. You might have a good case if you got hit by last month's "implicit consent dialog close" upgrade but you probably would have to show significant impact to you or your business to get near the 10k payout. A simple "W10 sucks and I didn't know it" wouldnt do.

Still, from the sound of it, a number of small biz did get pretty thrashed from last month's W10 upgrade, so, yes, it would be nice if California residents small claimed that. Might put a screeching halt to their sneakyware. A customer-critical computer out for a day would quickly add up to $$$$.

Do US small claims courts findings trigger precedents? Or will the next cases start from scratch? Could someone set up a wiki walking users through the necessary filing steps and docs?

[Doctor Syntax]

Re: puzzled

"Do US small claims courts findings trigger precedents?"

I shouldn't think so. Precedents arise from rulings on what the law means as other courts would then apply the same interpretation of law. In a small claims court there's no legal argument to present so no scope for rulings of law, the court just has to make a finding of the facts in that particular case.

[JLV]

Re: puzzled

Up voted you, good point. But, IIRC, maybe another state, someone took tobacco company (ies?) to small claims. Company fought back tooth & claw, with lawyers, hoping to avoid a precedent. And won. 5-10 years back, also USA.

[Charles 9]

Re: puzzled

Well, small claims is a state matter (otherwise, it's municipal, it depends on the state's judicial structure). So whether or not a small claim ruling has precedent depends on that state's laws. Also, if a small claim suit gets appealed, it usually goes to the same civil courts that handle the larger civil suits, and those typically DO set a precedent because the ruling has weight if THAT case gets sent to a Court of Appeals and so on.

[Alan Brown]

Re: puzzled

Small claims courts may not set precedents, but they are supposed to influence decisions.

Unfortunately, USA small claims judges(*) are frequently biased - which has resulted in many TCPA actions having to go up to higher courts before being kicked back down to small claims with direct instructions to the judges to obey the law(**).

(*) To be more precise, lay judges. They're not necessarily legally qualified and it shows.

(**) Many judges don't like the statutory damages contained in the TCPA and throw out cases on the basis that it will excessively harm the business, particularly in cases where the business being sued is the one which hired the lawbreakers, not the lawbreakers themselves (TCPA holds them jointly and severally liable). Judgements from further up the food chain make it clear that this is the intent - a death of 1 million paper cuts on offenders, pour encourager les autres.

[The humble print monkey]

Re: puzzled

So, perhaps this is why they bought LinkedIn.

[Steve Davies 3]

Re: puzzled

A lot easier now that MS has changed the meaning of the RED-X on the 'do you want to install this pile of steaming dog turd now or later?' box.

People who are not given the choice of saying No, not now or ever may well suffer some financial loss when the plague called W10 infects their system.

[bombastic bob]

Re: puzzled

"so someone who didn't explicitly authorise a Win10 install has been found by a court to have suffered an injury (in a financial sense)."

not just the INSTALL, but the *BANDWIDTH* *THEFT* for the DOWNLOAD as well (and any UPLOADING your PC might have done on Microsoft's behalf, like you're an involuntary torrent node).

did you suffer media skips while streaming Netflicks or watching Hulu or Youtube or whatever? Might it have been WINDOWS 10 downloading "in the background" that did it?

YOU SUFFERED DAMAGES! [well, I think that's pretty damaging, since *MY* bandwidth REALLY SUCKS, and 'win-10-nic' update downloads KILL it]

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: puzzled

Quite right.

I worked out that unwanted downloads of W10 install files before the blocker got installed cost me in real terms about £15 worth of PAYG phone credit, and the inconvenience of having to top up twice in one week.

[A Ghost]

Dear EFF, please investigate Microsoft for malicious practices regarding Windows 10

Please sign this petition if you can:

https://www.change.org/p/the-electonic-frontier-foundation-have-the-eff-investigate-microsoft-for-malicious-practices-regarding-windows-10

It seems to have run a little out of steam recently and could use a bit of a boost.

I pick up a new computer (old family computer) next week for running linux to surf the net. All my windows machines will then be totally taken off line and effectively air-gapped from microsoft's malicious practices.

Yay, computers are just about to become fun again for me, instead of the dread that comes when you're a kid and you are forced to visit an abusive family member.

Bye bye uncle microsoft. It hasn't been fun. Well, for you it was, of course. I shall never forget the time I've spent with you, and all the 'concern' you have shown for me, all the 'wanting to make my little life better', all the insistence in showing me 'what a special little boy I was', all the 'would you like to try this? No? well, we're going to do it anyway, and you will like it', all the abuse of trust, contravention of the computer misuse act, then the FUD, the blatant threats, not to forget all the insults.

I stuck by you in the early years when your name was mud, but alas, the nay-sayers were right about you all along.

What a class act microsoft turned out to be in the end eh, boys (and gals)?

[Baldy50]

Re: Dear EFF, please investigate Microsoft for malicious practices regarding Windows 10

Signed.

[Sir Runcible Spoon]

Re: Dear EFF, please investigate Microsoft for malicious practices regarding Windows 10

Here's a tip for anyone using Windows just to play games:

1. Set your machine up as dual-boot

-Windows for games

-Linux etc. for other stuff

2. Set the IP addresses differently in each OS*

3. Manually block the windows machine from talking to the internet on your ADSL router (if you play online games you may have to be s bit more specific)

4. Profit (from not having your Windows machine do things you didn't authorise)

*If you don't play online you could always just unplug the ethernet cable or not configure an IP address of course :)

[John 104]

FUCK. YEAH.

[GeoGreg]

Have heard of at least 2 cases

Once via work (although I think it was a home system), and one via a comment on a friend's social media account. In both cases, people accepted Windows 10 upgrades that seemed (to them) to be mandatory, and subsequently found their systems not functional for their needs. I was using a Windows system recently and finding myself confronted with a modal Windows 10 upgrade dialog that had no obvious "not now" or "decline" button. If I remember, I was able to dismiss the dialog by pressing the good ol' ESC key.

Whether they intended to or not, Microsoft has deployed an upgrade tool that is confusing. I suspect many unwitting upgraders have purchased new equipment. It's almost as if the PC makers as well as Microsoft might be benefiting from this. At least, you might think so. I couldn't possibly comment.

[Packet]

Re: Have heard of at least 2 cases

Posting as I went through something rather similar - friend contacted me asking if there was a photo viewer application in Windows 10 akin to Windows Live Photos.

I was rather surprised to hear of such a request and asked why.

His response was that there was a big Windows 10 upgrade window on his Windows 7 desktop and he thought it was a mandatory requirement to move to 10.

Upon informing him that he did not need to be force-marched to Windows 10, that Windows 7 was still supported until 2020, he chose to not go through the upgrade process.

The last action required the downloading and installing of a blocker such as the GWX control panel tool.

[anonymous boring coward]

Re: Have heard of at least 2 cases

"he thought it was a mandatory requirement to move to 10"

My god. People really are sheep.

[Anonymous Coward]

Consumer laws but by her own admission, a business user? Not sure that'd work in the UK...

[Roland6]

The UK small claims court is open to all, provided the amount being claimed is less than: 10,000 GBP England and Wales, 3,000 GBP Scotland and N.Ireland.

[allthecoolshortnamesweretaken]

" ... the appeal was halted "to avoid the expense of further litigation."

Hmm. If that is the real reason, MS is in deeper trouble than I thought.

[anonymous boring coward]

You can bet MS stopped contesting the verdict to try to minimise any publicity around it!

[Carl D]

Indeed.

And, speaking of publicity - has anyone else noticed how quickly these 'anti MS/W10' articles seem to disappear from Google search results these days? At least here in Australia.

It's almost like someone has an army of paid employees spending all day, every day 'bumping' up pro MS/W10 articles so the 'bad' ones quickly disappear.

But, maybe I'm just been cynical? Let's see how long this one and the many others about Teri's win that have been posted in the last day or so last.

Hopefully, this is the just the start of many lawsuits.

[Mark 85]

I can't answer for Google, but I have noticed there's a definite trend to the downvotes and upvotes around here. It's pretty blatant and it's just not articles about MS either.

[bombastic bob]

'astroturfing'

thinking about the possibility of manipulated search engine results, and excessively downvoted things in the El Reg forum... yeah, it's possible, but I don't think it's very effective.

Now, the BLATANT filtering of news stories as "current" or "interesting" by facebook staff... that's probably MORE effective at keeping bad news about Win-10-nic (particularly successful small claims court cases against them) out of the view of the general population.

it makes for a nice conspiracy theory, and probably IS happening, but yeah I think it has limited effectiveness. But I've noticed the downvote 'howler monkey' "apparent campaign" responses, too.

Astroturfing: artificial campaign designed to LOOK like 'grass roots', but isn't. Usually done to boost up a very minority opinion to make it look 'majority', often to demoralize and/or discourage opposition response which would OTHERWISE succeed... Hey, didn't something like that happen a few days ago in the U.K. ??? Except it didn't work.

[1Rafayal]

@mark 85

You are correct. Funny how some people always get similar amounts of upvotes, regardless of the topic.

Quite sad really.

[GrumpenKraut]

> Funny how some people always get similar amounts of upvotes, regardless of the topic.

Cannot quite agree. Rather, depending on the topic (and author) of the article, some opinions are popular or not. Brain dead comments tend to get downvotes everywhere and this is fine with me. Some, erm, strong personalities tend to get more downvotes than they deserve, well, well...

My impression about the comment voting here on El Reg is that is working OK.

Beer because MSFT got a small kick in the nuts.

[MJI]

Bumping good news over bad

I have sen this at work.

Yes it does happen, there are various work from home schemes, where you do lots of little tasks for a very small amount of mony, but it adds up, say £100 a week average.

Most of it is categorising new web pages, but there are quite a few page rank boosting, very interesting how it works.

The user gets one job, search x site, then y site, then z site, always google.

But all users get this job.

I have seen pages get boosted like this, or bad news (school shootings) pushed down by boosting other pages.

I have always thought money to be made off google by selling them the info, then they can down rank them again, but I have no idea if the home eorker would or not.

But one I remember seeing was a stairlift company trying to uprank past the big names.

BTW this is not me but I know people doing this working from home.

[DainB]

"Hmm. If that is the real reason, MS is in deeper trouble than I thought."

The real reason would probably be that they did not want to appeal, lose in civil court and thus set a precedent.

[Kev99]

Whatever happened to that proposed class action suit? They now have a fighting chance since many states will uses court decisions in others states as precedence.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well so far I've upgraded my laptop from 8 to 10, windows 8 was fully up to date but the upgrade borked, had to repair windows update and then it worked. Why it doesn't do this as a step I don't know. It also removed my AV software without informing me.

Today I tried to update Windows 7 Pro to 10, it told me I had one bit of software that wouldn't upgrade so I removed it and rebooted. Unfortunately there is no easy way to rerun the pre upgrade check but I continued. After the normal numerous reboots it eventually said it was restoring windows 7. It appears I yet again need to follow a number of complicated steps (one of which is fixing windows update) which MAY allow the upgrade to work But I'll have to have yet more down time each time I try.

After all this time surely Microsoft know what all the common issues are and should be detecting them up front rather than wasting hours trying to upgrade and then failing with some techie error code.

On top of that the upgrade gives many misleading messages towards the end which could easily see a user powering off their PC thinking it has hung.

And to top it off people actually working like an acquaintance was today suddenly finding their PC upgrading itself whilst they are doing a payroll run. At which point they had to stop, wait and hope without even being asked whether they wanted to do it or being allowed to cancel or even take a backup.

[Gray]

Self punisher?

Today I tried to update Windows 7 Pro to 10, it told me I had one bit of software that wouldn't upgrade so I removed it and rebooted. Unfortunately there is no easy way to rerun the pre upgrade check but I continued. After the normal numerous reboots it eventually said it was restoring windows 7. It appears I yet again need to follow a number of complicated steps (one of which is fixing windows update) which MAY allow the upgrade to work But I'll have to have yet more down time each time I try.

DearAC Self-Punisher! Are you one of those who lays his willy on an anvil and bashes it with a hammer, simply because it feels so good when you stop?

[Baldy50]

Re: Self punisher?

Only when the 'charade' card says 'The city is Bangkok'

[Captain Badmouth]

Testers wanted

"After all this time surely Microsoft know what all the common issues are and should be detecting them up front rather than wasting hours trying to upgrade and then failing with some techie error code."

I hope you submitted the report of problems you encountered with win10 beta?

[Anonymous Coward]

Delay buying a new PC until M$ is forced to do an Xbox-180

I'd like to think that this case will bring about change. But I remember this other one that didn't have enough steam either. We need to vote with our wallets here, its our last stand against Win10 slurping / forced-updates or IoT hell including Smart Ads TV's...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/09/12/microsoft_hp_italy_windows/

[Mr_E]

Almost bitten

"Daddy, I just did click the "X" button as you teach me to click to not install that Wi-rus-X"

Lucky me, the C partition have little free space, and the malware failed to download.

[Starting]

Hope she has the sense…

…to buy herself a Mac with the money.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hope she has the sense…

Nah this woman looks to me far too savvy for that - She'll buy herself a Chromebook and keep the (considerable) change :)) And she'll get to sue Google when they force an update on her she doesn't like!!

[MJI]

Re: Hope she has the sense…

Funny but

last year for the first time I advised someone to do this.

ASked what they wanted to do

Web surfing

Apple I tunes

So I said get a Mack, that was avoind Win8 and wil be more solid for Apple software

[A Ghost]

The word is getting out

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=455118&start=150

The audio world is very quick to accept, blindly, new versions of windows, which is for reasons too involved to get in to here.

Safe to say though, that these system-tweakers, these buyers-of-software, these buyers-of-hardware, these seers of visions, these painters, these pipers (sorry, I'll stop now), are finally starting to grok it all.

They've been warned. Like Basil Fawlty's Mini. But the bastards would not listen. Now they ARE sorry. Well, some of them anyway.

There's been a lot of fuss lately about the big corporate companies such as Native Instruments putting in tracking telemetry in their software and making it opt-in. Fuckers. Most say, please whip me harder Mr.NI, whilst ignoring the small protests of the minority, who are actually a silent majority. Slow to anger we are.

Shill after shill after shill. The whole fucking audio community is riddled with them. But people are sticking their heads above the parapet. It's slow, but it's a movement.

I've done a lot of research in this area. And I can say for a fact, if no one says anything, no one says anything, coz it's all about the feels. But when someone does make a bit of a twat of himself and threaten to start using crack software, they all come out of the woodwork.

This fight we have is more important than our little bits of software. This is about the freedom we don't have anymore, and will never have again, unless we take it back.

It's going to get dirty. You will lose friends. You won't be able to opt out.

This can't go on much longer. I'm prepared to put my life on hold, my career too, whilst I can. I don't have dependents, so I can fight.

Audio is a small niche. I know. But it's a bellwether. If people are starting to wake up in that very comatose and insulated world, then maybe there is some kind of hope.

The devs have their hands tied. They are not allowed to dissent. We have to argue for them. Their livelihoods are on the line. I respect that. Why should they fight for freedom? I'd rather they just keep working on the next great new DSP algorithm. Freedom fighters they are not.

Microsoft has worked it all out. How to fuck everyone with the least resistance. Shut the devs up. Shut the end users up. They have worked their way all the way down the chain.

Now comes the reckoning.

[DainB]

Windows 7

Since fresh or reinstall of Windows 7 does not want to install any updates any more surely that means it's not fit for purpose ? Now I only need move to California and start wasting my time on calls to Microsoft support.

[Baldy50]

Re: Windows 7

Yep I've noticed that, won't do updates, It's the original COA and Mickeysoft won't recognise it as valid!FFS

If they had any brains and a desire to create something better they would like Linux dev's have given the option to DL an ISO to run live and offered various Windows based help forums the info on their new OS.

They could have easily found beta testers who like MS software to check it out for them willingly, but that's just not the way big companies think.

[Roland6]

Re: Windows 7

Is this a system that was updated to W10 and has gone over it's 30 days? ...

If it is reinstall over Win7 it could be caused by the changes MS have made to the Windows Installer. I've found the easiest way to reinstall Win7 is:

1. Ideally save the OS licence key files.

2. Do the vanilla install of Windows.

3. Run WSUS Offline against it (obviously, need to prep the WSUS Offline repository, but that doesn't need supervison and hence can be done overnight).

4. Modify Windows privacy and update settings.

5. Reinstall the saved OS licence key files

6. Run Windows Update to grab any missing recent and must-have updates.

[Allan George Dyer]

Can I get...

a "Windows 10 Upgrade" screensaver for Linux?

I feel I've missed the fun.

[Baldy50]

Re: Can I get...

That's not funny, but this one is when you put on a colleagues computer while they're getting coffee.

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bluescreen.aspx

The look on there face when they see that BSOD.

[dwonk786]

I was a software engineer for 23 years in the semiconductor industry.. I "upgraded" to "Forever Windows 10" when the 30-day go-back policy was still in force, but they wouldn't let me. I lost a valuable computer. I studied the situation for months and am able to prove conclusively that Microsoft illegally (and certainly in violation of the U.S. Patriot Act) has illegally remotely doctored existing versions of Windows to force upgrading. Since I recently quit twitter (@dwonk786) I just wrote to my Facebook peeps, mostly family, the note below, a complaint about Microsoft and Apple. Then I saw this article on The Register and thought, "What a lovely day."

*************

to my FB peeps

Since I publicly accused Microsoft of illegally doctoring old versions of Windows to force people to upgrade forever to the God-awful Windows 10, I have been forced to use a macbook and toshiba windows 10 $1000 laptop that is one of the worst computers I have ever owned. It updates the OS constantly and is super-slow. But what really annoys me about Apple and Microsoft is this: I OWN the version of software on my computer, in spite of their "legal agreement" that the software belongs to them forever. Both OSs update when they want to. WHO GAVE Microsoft and Apple control over our most vital possessions, our computers? Not me.

[tom dial]

Years ago I promised never to mess with or change more than minimally my wife's laptop (Windows 7 Home Premium, with all the HP cruft). I have been extremely careful to decline automatic updates and to refuse W10 on every patch Tuesday. If she allows it based on examination of the upgraded preview version, I will make a block copy of the disk and go forward with the install early in July. If it fails I may call MS, but probably will just load the image back onto the disk and continue with Windows 7 until the system, now 5 or 6 years old, is replaced. After July 29, I hope the upgrade nag will go away; if it does not, I may look into the Utah small claims courts.

[Roland6]

Re: Wife's 'HP' laptop

Save yourself some trouble. If the laptop was not sold with Win8/8.1 as a configuration option then check HP's support site and enter your service code. If it lists no Win10 or 8.1 drivers for your system then don't waste your time trying to upgrade it.

HP aren't unique in this regard, as have come across similar issues with some Dell and IBM/Lenovo systems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why mention Apple?

Care to explain why your post/rant includes Apple? Windows 10 is as far as I know not an Apple product.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Why mention Apple?

His/her post is carrying on the long tradition (but in reverse) of mentioning Microsoft (negatively) in response to any articles that are all to do with Apple and are negative towards the fruity one (or perceived to be) in some way.

[1Rafayal]

Re: Why mention Apple?

It's a silly trend that has been following the Windows 10 articles here.

"Rant, rant, rant. Windows 10 installed itself without my permission or knowledge! I didn't give it permission to install, I just clicked some buttons that asked me if I wanted it, now it's installed! This is unacceptable, my next purchase will be an Apple!"

[Kurt Meyer]

Re: Why mention Apple?

@ AC

"Care to explain why your post/rant includes Apple? Windows 10 is as far as I know not an Apple product."

You are Joe Hart and I claim my £5!

Not your week for catching things, eh Joe?

From dwonk786's post: "I have been forced to use a macbook and toshiba windows 10 $1000 laptop that is one of the worst computers I have ever owned."

That seems to be an Apple reference to me.

Now, quite why the OP seems to believe that Apple forces him to upgrade his OS ala Windows 10, I couldn't say.

That has not been my experience with Apple. I've been told that an upgrade is available, but I have never had it forced on me.

[Steve Todd]

@dwonk786

I think you'll find that Apple will tell you about new versions of their OS, but won't force you to install the upgrade. THATS the way that MS should be working, a simple offer of the new version and a graceful acceptance if it is declined.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just for the record I upgraded my HP Win 7 Pro PC to Win 10 Pro and it's fine - would you believe it!! - I must have been lucky, lucky, lucky ;))

Actually, I have a small issue with Taskbar icon Jump Lists not showing paths if you hover over them like they did in Win 8.1 but I can live with it.

Do I think Win 10 is the worst OS ever. No it's fine but for me, and I use both almost entirely in Desktop mode, I don't think it's an improvement over Win 8.1 which I rather liked when I'd got used to it and exercised its foibles (bloody Charms!). (In-spite of what people say, 8.1 is faster that Win 7 and equally as stable).

[David 138]

Windows 7 is a dog but i hate Windows 8. I quite enjoy Windows 10 after its short learning curve. They only thing that bothers me is that im not sure how to role it out in business when it might completely change next week.

[digentech]

lemmings to the slaughter

90% of bad things being heard about windows 10 are from those on Buggy preview released, conspiracy theorists hoping on the Microsoft is spying wagon and hyping it up... When was the last time that Microsoft gave out a free OS, oh yeah, vista to 7 which I still get complaints about people not seeing, so let's pull up the facts, Windows 7 is an old dog based on last millenniums security and can not adapt to the new security requirements and no matter the amount of parching, it can't resolve the big issue, stupid people using a computer safely and correctly, so they release windows 8 which the world flipped out at so again Microsoft in their own way without inciting panic offer a fix, a once again secure OS matching todays standards. So much with improvements, an old admin trick to remove a password from an admins account no longer works and what do the idiots of the world do, complain about the interface and changes which secure the OS. No one pays attention to the fact windows 7 mainstream Support is gone. So keep harping on about how much you hate Windows, just makes all those hackers hoping for your aversion to security steal your credit card numbers, and your social security number, view your webcam's and father more personal information about you, please do so, and lemmings, please continue to follow rather than ask, why is Microsoft pressing for an is with built in security around biometrics', where you need to have access to other devices to ensure that you are you, keep running windows without password or running Google Chrome and harping that Microsoft is collecting days. Please, it keeps me employed because to tell you the truth, Windows 10 and Microsoft's new security requirements leaves me without a job and I just love charging you money to protect you from yourself

[Sir Runcible Spoon]

Re: lemmings to the slaughter

You registered an account just to post that? And then you managed to fuck up posting it anonymously!! (why ffs - if you created an account just to post that drivel you're not gaining anything from posting AC).

Also, you might want to use some paragraphs :)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: lemmings to the slaughter

90% of bad things being heard about windows 10 are from those on Buggy preview released

Well, I think your preview clearly demonstrates that the code lacks the ability to write clearly, well spaced and paragraphed text.

For the rest I haven't bothered reading through the rant because you're clearly a beginning Microsoft marketing executive but don't worry. They'll soon teach you how to properly astroturf.

After they've fixed the evident keyboard bug in your Windows 10 install.

Oh, by the way, "Windows security" is as much a contradiction in terms as "military intelligence".

[Kurt Meyer]

Re: lemmings to the slaughter

@ digentech / AC

Paragraphs, they're not just for breakfast anymore.

Also, the spellchecker is your friend, you should spend more time with him.

[Anonymous Coward]

lemmings to the slaughter

90% of bad things being heard about windows 10 are from those on Buggy preview released, conspiracy theorists hoping on the Microsoft is spying wagon and hyping it up... When was the last time that Microsoft gave out a free OS, oh yeah, vista to 7 which I still get complaints about people not seeing, so let's pull up the facts, Windows 7 is an old dog based on last millenniums security and can not adapt to the new security requirements and no matter the amount of parching, it can't resolve the big issue, stupid people using a computer safely and correctly, so they release windows 8 which the world flipped out at so again Microsoft in their own way without inciting panic offer a fix, a once again secure OS matching todays standards. So much with improvements, an old admin trick to remove a password from an admins account no longer works and what do the idiots of the world do, complain about the interface and changes which secure the OS. No one pays attention to the fact windows 7 mainstream Support is gone. So keep harping on about how much you hate Windows, just makes all those hackers hoping for your aversion to security steal your credit card numbers, and your social security number, view your webcam's and father more personal information about you, please do so, and lemmings, please continue to follow rather than ask, why is Microsoft pressing for an is with built in security around biometrics', where you need to have access to other devices to ensure that you are you, keep running windows without password or running Google Chrome and harping that Microsoft is collecting days. Please, it keeps me employed because to tell you the truth, Windows 10 and Microsoft's new security requirements leaves me without a job and I just love charging you money to protect you from yourself

[Pompous Git]

Re: lemmings to the slaughter

Déjà fool!

[MJI]

I have been very wary

of Windows updates since WGA.

I have never had a WGA infected XP box, my boss did and it shut down and would not woirk due to a false positive.

He wasted a day on that!.

I have manually checked since then and 5583 is not allowed near any 7 box.

[Nameless Faceless Computer User]

Months after being caught, Microsoft still lists KB3035583 as a critical update. If you don't have that number memorized and know how to deal with it, you may have already been bitten by those snakes.

I buy a computer to run my applications, not the operating system. Every time someone "updates" the operating system, my apps break. That's a hostile and purposeful act.

[Kurt Meyer]

Microsoft still lists KB3035583 as a critical update.

@ Nameless Faceless Computer User

I don't know which Windows Update you are using, but the version I use lists KB3035583 as a "recommended" update, not a "critical" update.

As far as I know, the list of updates to avoid for Windows 7 users is as follows:

KB971033 - Update to Windows Activation Technologies. Listed as Important.

KB2952664 - Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7. Listed as Recommended

KB2990214 - Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows. Listed as Recommended.

KB3035583 - Update installs get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1. Listed as Recommended.

KB3068708 - Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry. Listed as Recommended.

KB3075249 - Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7. Listed as Recommended.

KB3080149 - Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry. Listed as Recommended.

I have also seen KB3102429 mentioned as an update to avoid. A check of the KnowledgeBase says that it is an: Update for central Asian currencies. WTF?

Since my need for (or my customers need for) any thing to do with central Asian currencies is vanishingly small, I avoid it also.

As a matter of fact, there are very few of the "Recommended" updates that I bother to install.

I welcome any advice or commentary that will help improve this list of undesirable updates, and I hope that others will find it useful.

[Anonymous Coward]

"After hours and hours of support desk calls, her computer remained in a barely usable state: three technicians uninstalled and reinstalled the operating system software to no avail. It was a complete waste of time."

Hmm - three "technicians" reinstalled the OS and they still couldn't get it working. They weren't very good then were they!! I guarantee I would have fixed it. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was some underlying problem with the hardware that tripped up Win 10 and didn't affect Win 7. I've seen that first hand with faulty or mis-configured RAM chips.

And in any case, since when has it been good business practice to run a business reliant solely on one PC with no backups! If I'd have been MS, Id have told this lady where to stick her complaints!!

[ultimate_noobie]

Before you go all "I'm tech savvy ergo awesome," please source your data a little more. A quick google shows that she did pay to have someone do all the required odds and ends for business work, such as backups, app installs and so on, though it may have just been the folks at the Geek Squad desk who likewise, couldn't help restore it. From the perspective of the average non-technical home business owner, she did her due diligence and that still wasn't enough to save the system nor get everything lost within the time frame (including cancelled sales) back. Honestly, I commend her for her note-taking and desire to get everything resolved through proper channels as a decent person before having to resort to any sort of civil action. Admittedly, MS sent a guy from the local store to represent them which did not help them in the action but given their treatment of her, seems par for course of her experience.

[King Jack]

Another M$ shill

"And in any case, since when has it been good business practice to run a business reliant solely on one PC with no backups! If I'd have been MS, Id have told this lady where to stick her complaints!!"

The way she runs her business is not in question, so could run it any way she wanted. That part is under her control. If it sinks her then that is lesson she learns. Having your computer hacked to bits by an outside company with no benefit to her is not her fault. Millions have tried and failed to say no to M$, but they just refuse to listen. I hope M$ goes bankrupt or is bounced back to a small firm because of this. Bring on the lawsuits!!

[a_yank_lurker]

"And in any case, since when has it been good business practice to run a business reliant solely on one PC with no backups! If I'd have been MS, Id have told this lady where to stick her complaints!!" shows you are an idiot who never worked in very small company whose part-time IT department was the most computer literate of an illiterate bunch. Most small businesses are not run by geeks but by people who are using a computer to as a tool.

[adam payne]

Good for her

$150 in compensation is a joke, the upgrade (consented to or not) should not have left her machine in such a state.

"Microsoft appealed the decision but dropped this action last month. A spokeswoman for the Windows maker told us what it also told the Seattle Times last week: Microsoft "dropped its appeal to avoid the expense of further litigation.""

More like you knew you couldn't win so you gave her the money and hoped there wouldn't be any bad publicity.

[anthonyhegedus]

let's hope this is the one that kills microsoft

I for one am sick of the last 30-odd years of microsoft peddling shitty broken software to the public. And the arrogance is extreme! I fixed a computer earlier this week by cloning the hard disk and it's telling me I have non-genuine software on it now. OK, so all I need to do it activate it again, but it's a pain-point and it's indicative of an arrogant self-absorbed company. What makes them think people want to (illegally) copy their bollocks software anyway?

It's not like Windows 10 is too bad in and of itself, but it's the upgrade process that's often broken, and the (yet again) sheer arrogance of the company installing an upgrade that has the potential to break things.

So I am hoping that so many people are going to claim damages from this company that it kills it off, or at least it becomes a shadow of its former self.

[Anonymous Coward]

Auto updates are such a wonderful thing in the magical current year of The Cloud

...said no one ever.

It is time to take a stand and wrest back rights decimated by the abusive practices of tech companies. Even in the gaming industry, you have price-gouging DLCs and deliberate omission of gaming via LAN.

This is not 'capitalism'. This is scummy behaviour, plain and simple.

[Charles 9]

Re: Auto updates are such a wonderful thing in the magical current year of The Cloud

"It is time to take a stand and wrest back rights decimated by the abusive practices of tech companies. Even in the gaming industry, you have price-gouging DLCs and deliberate omission of gaming via LAN.

This is not 'capitalism'. This is scummy behaviour, plain and simple."

No, it's capitalism. What's wrong is that the average person is not smart enough to play the game, and the sellers can take advantage. Not much you can do about that since You Can't Fix Stupid.

[jason 7]

Thing is...

...had she called me or any other local IT guy we'd have fixed it in a couple of hours and for around £80.

At worst I could have copied off her user data and rebuilt it from scratch in less than two hours.

Why would anyone call Microsoft? That's like calling Ford's HQ in the USA if your Fiesta has a knocking noise.

I know because I've made a lot of money the past 8 months or so sorting out Windows 10 issues.

[King Jack]

Re: Thing is...

If a Ford mechanic came round and 'upgraded' her Fiesta's engine behind her back and it knocked then who would you call? You muppet. M$ broke her property without invitation. I guess she should have called the police.

[Kurt Meyer]

Re: Thing is...

@ jason 7

"rebuilt it from scratch in less than two hours."

Thanks for the laugh Jason, your claim is easily the second funniest thing I have seen this week.

After this.

[jason 7]

Re: Thing is...

Whats so funny? If they have a USB3 and SSD I can do it in less than 20 minutes.

This stuff aint difficult.

Or are you seeing it all from the Enterprise IT dept rather than the grass roots support side?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Thing is...

And if you CAN'T boot from USB because it has Secure Boot, it's locked, and the OS you need to unlock it is kaput?

[jason 7]

Re: Thing is...

Most machines use secure boot and I haven't had an issue with it yet. I think you might be another that doesn't actually understand Secure boot.

[nilfs2]

And yet they keep using Micro$oft shit

Stocoholm Syndrom perhaps?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's spyware.

Windows 10 is nothing but spyware. Microsoft is one of the worst companies around.

Windows 10 is as much secure as Windows 7 is since you can't see the source code to verify anything it could just be scrambled Windows 7 code so some things don't work and all we have is Microsoft's word which "really" matters.

If you want a secure os go look up Qubes OS .

Instead of really fixing security Microsoft releases the same crap every year with a different color and a name change, their security consists of non stop antivirus scanners, obfuscated code and marketing, every new version is the same crap, except now not as before they gave themselves power to collect everything on your computer at they're discretion in the Windows 10 eula.You have nothing to hide do you so you wouldn't mind when Microsoft performs cavity search on you, it's for your own good really Microsoft know better then you what you need, just shut up and take it.

And a little Microsoft history.

Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson the presiding judge in the United States v. Microsoft 90's case said that Microsoft executives had, according to him, "proved, time and time again, to be inaccurate, misleading, evasive, and transparently false. ... Microsoft is a company with an institutional disdain for both the truth and for rules of law that lesser entities must respect. It is also a company whose senior management is not averse to offering specious testimony to support spurious defenses to claims of its wrongdoing."

The only way this will end is when we will have open source hardware with GNU General Public License (GNU GPL or GPL), then we will be able to trust our hardware and os have real security, and they will not be able to force spyware on us, that is the only way, the rest are just words with no value.

"Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." George Orwell

"For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others." Nelson Mandela

[Charles 9]

Re: It's spyware.

"If you want a secure os go look up Qubes OS ."

Unless you wanna play Fallout 4 as well. Then it's Windows or Bust.

[MJI]

Fallout 4

I will be getting later this year and will be playing it on a fork of BSD

[Charles 9]

Re: Fallout 4

How without a VM (which means you have Windows anyway, besides I wouldn't bank on its performance as it's VERY demanding)? Last I checked, Bethesda swore off Linux and the like saying it was too scattered an environment?

[MJI]

Re: Fallout 4

Same way I play Destiny in a BSD environment, or most recently Uncharted 4

Yes Sony use a version of BSD for their console.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_4_system_software

So LOTS of games run in a Unix type environment, and no sign of Windows anywhere near it.

[Charles 9]

Re: Fallout 4

But that's a console. I'm talking on an actual PC that normally uses keyboard and mouse inputs and can let you use GPUs miles ahead of the stuff used in the PS4 or Xbox One. Plus last I checked there are plenty of games that are PC-only.

[MJI]

Re: Fallout 4

The point is games are written for non Windows OSes so you do not need it.

[Charles 9]

Re: Fallout 4

A non-Windows PC OS. At this point, getting a non-Windows version of Fallout 4 requires plunking down for a console when I have a PC that can run laps around it. Not to mention all the other hardware and switchery needed to switch between them. Why bother when I can use my existing computer to play Fallout 4 better than any console?

[Tree]

Re: It's spyware.

Common Core uses Bill and Melinda Gates' falsehoods and conniving to ruin the education of millians of American schoolchildren. Additionally, this sets up a data mountain whereby your government will know everyting about us.

[Captain Badmouth]

Re: It's spyware.

"Common Core uses Bill and Melinda Gates' falsehoods and conniving to ruin the education of millians of American schoolchildren"

Quite so. :)

[alex_of_oz]

Yep, me too

No doubt one of tens of thousands - Dell laptop, forced upgrade, Dell doorstop.

The tech I took it to to fix the mess said that the Dell (out of the box standard) appeared to be missing a driver that Windows 10 expected to be there. This was after the forced update told me the laptop was ready for Windows 10.

NO IT WASN'T.

Result? I doorstop and one, new, Windows 10 pre-loaded Dell laptop. A win for Microsoft, an associated win for Dell (I hope they are blameless - won't be happy if I hear that they're not) and one very pissed off customer.

This, combined with a great Windows 8 phone (love it) backed up by almost ZERO apps available, means I'm thinking of moving my loyalty. Are we seeing the suicide of Microsoft by stupidity?

[Willyn]

Windows 10 is a virus

Windows 10 is nothing more than an advertising system and one in which if installing software that is not Microsoft it becomes difficult and sometime it’s partly uninstalled rendering is unusable. I am not one bit surprised to read how it can screw up a business. I bought a new laptop with windows 10 preinstalled. I tried to install my software from my other laptop with good old win 7 but the Windows 10 crashed with the BLACK screen of death. It sent away for repair in March 2016 and returned in 6 June 2016. Now the machine crashed and crashed to a point where it was necessary to reinstall Windows. This took over 24 hours to complete. I am on Satellite Internet with a quota of 10Gb/month. To my sheer surprise within three days the entire quota had gone. Windows 10 is not good for anyone who has a download quota. Removing all advertisements and the unwanted Microsoft programs and anything else that allowed Microsoft to infiltrate my privacy was removed, well I though this had been done but the machine refused to shut down, I could point with the mouse but could not select anything. This Windows 10 is FREE and there is no such thing as a free dinner. If you want to keep your computing private then DON’T USE WINDOWS 10 and don’t sign into Cortina and the others.

[Hunterman]

Win10 forceware

" Windows 10 update wrecked the computer she used to run her **business** "

" This update caused the Windows 7 **Home Premium** PC to crash "

I'm surprised MS didn't contest the case on the basis that the End-User was in breach of the software license conditions.

[long-in-tooth]

What is the internet for??????????

Am I alone here? The first time I was nearly caught out with a Windows 10 attack I jumped on the internet and found programs to run in the background that cleaned all the 10 crap and kept watch for any attempted intrusions - never had an attack since.

EASY

Would rather have collected 10k cash if I could take the hastle!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What is the internet for??????????

" I jumped on the internet and found programs to run in the background that cleaned all the 10 crap and kept watch for any attempted intrusions"

You do know that you are just the dream user for anyone that would like to hijack your PC?

Your self-congratulatory actions are unsafe, and the lady in the article is far more sensible.

"What is the internet for??????????"

It's for a lot of things. But I don't recommend jumping on offers to download programs to "fix" your Windows issues..

[SineWave242]

All this could be avoided easily if people used some of the Linux distros instead of Windows. Linux updates so easily. It's really a "plug and play" OS. Depending on the distro and desktop environment, of course. I have good experiences with Debian Mate.

[Charles 9]

" It's really a "plug and play" OS."

More like "plug and pray." I cannot count the number of times I've had linux installs fail to install, crash and panic for no apparent reason, or simply not see the hardware I have. And it's not like I'm using ultra-obscure hardware, either. Just a pretty recent AMD GPU (you can't plug and play a modern GPU and get full support without non-free drivers; that's a fact because both AMD and nVidia protect their trade secrets), several modems, and any number of USB scanners. And I was using a pre-Unity Ubuntu, too.

[Pompous Git]

More like "plug and pray." I cannot count the number of times I've had linux installs fail to install, crash and panic for no apparent reason...

User error? Or are you recalling Linux distros long lost in the mists of time? There might be a few here using a pre-Unity Ubuntu, but most appear to be using much more recent distros.

[Charles 9]

Unity only came a few years ago, and I don't recall Windows spontaneously rebooting on a media player, yet mplayer did it all the time for me. Or you go to sleep and wake up and find it rebooted on you: not a good thing when you had it doing an overnight job. Let's not even get started on the whole "Winmodem" and "Broadcom Bluetooth Adapter" business.

[Pompous Git]

Unity only came a few years ago, and I don't recall Windows spontaneously rebooting on a media player, yet mplayer did it all the time for me.

I seem to recall replacing w7 with Ubuntu and Unity on an HP netbook back in 2010. W7 kept locking up and needed to pull the battery to restart. Never had a problem with Ubuntu/Unity. Funny thing, I'd purchased the netbook for a trip to Melbourne. Everywhere I went, there were huge advertising screens and they were obviously WinXP. Ever so many were displaying the BSOD. So it goes...

I use Banshee for video playing and Audacious for music, so can't comment on mplayer. Both work very well and no spontaneous reboots on any of several machines running Cinnamon Mint 17.x, most for 12 months now.

[lurker 82]

I was luckier

Little son's computer was the last box in the house still running Windows-7.

One day, before Microsoft started their auto-updates, the disk died. I didn't realize it at the time, but that turned out to be a fortunate event.

Rather than reinstall Windows-7, I replaced the hard drive and initialized it with Trusty (14.04, Ubuntu) .

Saved him from the Windows-10 upgrade and he seems very happy. I feel safer too.

[jeanapyle]

i am having the same problem....windows 10 erased a lot of my files and took away a lot of things i used. i have contacted them numerous times and they failed to fix my computer and even made it worse. i told them that i wanted my factory reset back on there and they kept trying to sell me stuff that i don't even need or use i kept telling them that they need to take windows 10 off and put my computer back to the way it was. instead, they erased even more stuff. wth....is there a class action lawsuit against them on putting windows 10 on here without my permission.

[anonymous boring coward]

It most definately should not erase your files.

Get someone IT skilled in to have a look, before rushing to a conclusion and making things worse!

Or ask here for more advice!

Regards

[dragonshadow43]

Scammers

I had talked to a Microsoft Rep by the name Meghana and told her when I install SP1 my computer blue screens and shuts down. She didn't know what SP1 was, I thought this is going to be fun. Regardless she asked me to disable 1 of my lcd's, then she disables my norton, and installs it anyway. Sure enough my computer blue screens and shuts down. She tells me she will make a note of it and someone will contact me in a week then hangs up on me. I called back and talked to a Jose. He tells me "No, they will call you back tomorrow between 11 am - 1 pm." The next day 1 pm came and went so I called back and got Meghana again, I had to ask her 6 times before she patched me through to a supervisor. This supervisor Ash, tells me "No they will call you in a week and tells me everything will be ok". I told him I just had my computer messed up by one of your reps, I was hung up on, and I was lied to, yet everything is going to be ok? He told me there was nothing he could do. So I called a tech and paid him to come fix my computer. I had to install everything back again because of this rep. A week later after 1 pm I get a call from Microsoft asking how can the help me. I find out that Microsoft techs are in India, not the US. If I knew I could win I would sue them for messing up my computer and for the money I lost hiring a tech to fix it.