Genuine LOL there.
"El Reg contacted both the Remain and Leave camps for comment, but suspect neither set were able to hear email alert pings above all the bullshit they are talking."
Microsoft invited a UK government cabinet minister from the Remain camp to give its troops the big sell on why Blighty should stay in the EU – but shelved the meeting following the murder of MP Jo Cox, the company confirmed. The senior politician was to debrief the Windows giant's Brit workforce on the benefits of staying …
@ Terry Barnes
"How many minimum wage employees do you think Microsoft has in the UK? Or anywhere?"
The real question that impacts the Brexit vote is how many MORE minimum wage employees would MS like to have in the UK? Or anywhere (where they can outsource higher-paid jobs currently in Britain)?
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The value of your house going down does not mean you pay less per month, as it is pretty darn likely interest rates will go up. Also, if you already have your mortgage, you will not pay less, only your house will be worth less. The bank doesn't actually call you and say they will reduce what you owe them now when your house is worth less.
Because if interest rates go up, people can't afford to borrow as much so they can't afford to pay as much.
Depends where you are in the market, but some segments will see a reduction in demand as result meaning anyone who *needs* to sell may have to accept less, which leads to the perception that equivalent properties are worth less.
You can set the price you want, but if the market doesn't agree with you then you ain't selling. You only have control within market limits, you're deluding yourself if you think you can set whatever price you want. Why do you think that areas with lower demand (like the north of England) have lower prices?
Personally I'd love to be able to sell my place for £100m and then retire to the Bahamas, but I doubt I'd get any takers.
Microsoft quite liked the tax deal where they sold software out of Ireland instead of the U.K. To reduce their tax by around £10m/year.
While HMRC should have stopped it (or tax rules changed to address the loophole), leaving the EU would potentially stop said loophole.
On the issue of immigration, the EU provides a huge pool of talent and the ability for a company to move between countries as required to get the most benefit for the company. Not so great for the workers unless they're prepared to move as well.
The EU - a socialist^h^h^h corporate dream.
Perhaps, as with cows and sheep, the distance made the Scottish referendum look prettier to the rest of us. With this one we're all right-up close and it's caked all over with something that's not very nice.
And it's pretty much divided the country and poisoned all future rational debate about the UK's place in the EU. Well done politicos.
As someone in Scotland who experienced the independence referendum first hand, it wasn't even in the same league as the bullshit that's being spouted during this campaign (although it's quite funny to hear the same arguments being trotted out by the Brexit camp as were by the Scottish independence camp)
Aye, Dan 55. IMO the referendum should've been an EU-wide one on how to fix the EU, rather than whether we in the UK should stay or leave. I don't particularly want us to leave the EU, but I don't want to have untrammeled immigration to continue without their being very serious consequences for those who immigrate and then refuse to accept the local laws and mores. Ironically, it's the business far right that is most keen on completely free movement of people, as it lets them reduce labour costs, whilst the unwashed far right screams about the influx of foreigners.
Meanwhile the impact of immigration on local culture and societal norms is quietly ignored - because there's perceived to be no economic impact. The immigration question isn't about racism, it's about culture. I've spoken to several immigrants who feel as strongly about this as I do - they've come to the UK because of our generally tolerant society, and the last thing they want is for the UK to be turned into the kind of religously dominated bullying kind of society that they've moved her eto get away from. So far as I'm concerned, I don't care what colour a person is or where they're from - if they're in the UK, and adhere by our laws, customs and mores, they're British. If anoyone's here that doesn't accept that, no matter even if they were born here, then I do wish they'd bugger off to somewhere that suits them better instead of trying to turn the UK into a totalitarian hellhole. I gather from a French friend that there's folk over in France feel the same way there, too.
All this crap about being concerned about immigration equating to racism is unadulterated bullshit. There's not been a lot of sense spoken about sovereignty or trade issues, either. A pox on all their (the Leave/Remain campaigns) houses, for spreading disinformation. I think the referendum should be scrapped, and replaced with some kind of vote on how to fix the EU so that it doesn't cause so many within it to be unhappy about it.
"various companies were castigated (rightly so IMHO) for pretty much telling their employees how to vote"
which is why this time around companies are starting the sentence with "It's your vote, and it's up to you to decide how you cast it, but...", and then finishing the sentence telling you which way they want you to vote.
I have no particular objection to a company saying to its workforce "this is what we believe the consequences of the two outcomes will be both for the company itself and you as as member of staff" - and then backing it up with some actual facts, actual reasoned arguments and clarification of which bits were opinion, company policy, etc. (*)
Of course I'd like the same from the wider debate too, so clearly I'm an eternal optimist due to live forever in a state of disappointment.
If we do vote to Leave I will be mostly drinking the bitter tears of the vile Remain campaign, whose campaigning slogan has been "We are all geniuses, and people who are better and richer than you think this, so fucking vote the way we tell you, you vile plebs."
It's all media spin and crap. I have been out on the streets with the Leave campaign. I've done leafleting, a scrap of canvassing and I'm out on Thursday reminding Leavers to get the vote out. And I have talked to hundreds of people in all lines of work. Millionaires to bin men, housewives, teachers, farmers, every walk of life.
Everyone I have met has been courteous. To a man and woman they have been interested in the debate. They have wanted more information to make better informed decisions. I got my hair cut and everyone in the salon was talking about the referendum. In a hairdressers where the average level of conversation is about holidays there were stylists and clients talking about the CAP and the economy. I haven't had a single aggressive or unpleasant encounter when I've met people face to face. They have been passionate, oh yes, deeply passionate about things
It has reaffirmed my faith in the Demos. And it has made me all the more committed to Leave because people CAN make decisions for themselves without politicians and they WANT to do it.
All the shit in the media is just that. We are better than this, I've seen it and it makes me want to see it again and again. Even if the UK votes to Remain (and I sincerely hope it doesn't) the experience on the ground has been fantastic.
Did you try talking to anyone face to face about the referendum? Did they shout at you? Did they scream? Did they hurl abuse? No, they didn't. But that's how the media has played the whole campaign for both sides.
But if you want to believe I'm some secret paid-up shill for Leave, that's your decision.
Don't forget that if you're voting to Remain, your voting time runs from 10pm on Thursday until 10pm on Friday.
All the shit in the media? I think you'll find the Leave campaign have a very variable relationship with the truth, Remain less so, but perhaps only because they've said fewer specifics.
I can't see how a referendum result can even be valid until the campaigners on both sides retract all the false statements they have made and that's going to take time.
Everyone I have met has been courteous
the vile Remain campaign
Everyone has been courteous except you, apparently. Oh, and except for those of your allies who have been blowing racist dogwhistles about Syrian refugees, foreign rapists and Turkish visas.
"We are all geniuses, and people who are better and richer than you think this, so fucking vote the way we tell you, you vile plebs."
I haven't seen any of this. Perhaps you have a massive inferiority complex?
What I have seen, however, is disgusting xenofobic nazi-style rethoric from that slug Nigel.
Is Farage planning to expell his wife if Brexit wins?
Sheesh! - I double-checked, and I did put the joke icon on it.
Being serious for a moment though, I've looked at as much analysis as I could find and at who is actually pushing which side of the campaign and what their personal motives might be, and once you cut through as much of the crap from both sides as you can identify it seems pretty clear to me where the right answer lies.
All I ask of anyone voting on Thursday is that you try to get to the truth amongst the hyperbole and make an informed decision, don't just vote with the grumbling sensation in your skull and belly from too much beer with last night's dinner.
"The senior politician was to debrief the local workforce on the benefits of staying inside the EU today"
I think you really mean brief, as this was to be before the event, and its purpose would have been to inform actors and involved parties of factors pertinent to the forthcoming event; a debriefing occurs after an event, to gain information from the actors and involved parties about what actually happened during that event.
Cisco bet is more subtle. While it did hoist the remain flag it prepared itself for the eventuality of BrExit 2+ years ago. It reorganized the UK business structure so that everything more important is now formally registered in Scotland. If UK goes BrExit, the likelihood of Scottish Secession is estimated to be >70%. See gov'nor, we did not actively work to ensure that that a BrExited Britain (or what is left of it) will lose most of the revenue from our HQ and staffing operations. It is just the way it happened...
That is at least more subtle than Google's "ripping of HQ plans" and delaying its Eu HQ investment after it becomes clear if its Eu HQ will be in Eu. The official party line that the project was not "sufficiently bold" smelled like a megaton of bovine excrement on a really hot summer morning.
I have not looked into what other large USA companies have done, but every single one of them ran through some sort of "prepare for an exit" exercise and none of them will be around in a couple of years time after a BrExit. All in all, it makes you wonder, did Osborne actually underestimate how bad it will hit the economy. I think he did.
So none of these corporations invested in Britain before the EU existed? None of them invest in the multitude of other countries throughout the world outside the EU that have smaller economies than the UK?
If some companies move their HQ to the Eurozone that's overall better for us and the EU as it will relieve our overheated economy. We are overcrowded, have sky high property prices and employ over a million more EU citizens than the EU employs Brits. Meanwhile there is chronic youth unemployment in other parts of the EU. It would be better for us all if some major employers did relocate out of the UK.
As you may know EU has been around a long time. So, yes, many of the companies would not have been investing in the UK before EU existed. They may not leave instantly, of course, but in due time investements will be channelled elswhere.
Wealth is found where employement is found, so it would not be better for the UK if employers moved out of the UK. That is just some bizarre reasoning.
Quality of life = wealth / cost of living
If we optimised our lives for quality of life instead of wealth, people would be happier. The way to achieve this is with much reduced immigration and low house prices. Leaving the EU is a step in the right direction. The longer the government continue increasing our population to make the nation wealthier but more overcrowded, the more our quality of life will decline. Our relative position in economic terms doesn't improve quality of life, provided we don't let wealthy foreigners buy up our country. Service industry jobs also tend not to provide the same job satisfaction of manufacturing/creative jobs once did.
The majority of British people had a better quality of life before we joined the EU.
"Quality of life = wealth / cost of living"
If the pound devalues, which it will on a leave, the cost of living will go up.
Why is that then?
Because anything not made in Britain will be more expensive.
In addition, most things made in Britain are made from parts made elsewhere, so they will also go up in price.
Exports *may* increase due to the now relatively cheap British labour. But this may be negated due to EU countries' import duty.
And, with your strategy, going abroad will be very expensive. But perhaps you see that as a plus.
>The majority of British people had a better quality of life before we joined the EU.
Absolutely nothing else could have caused a change in quality of life since then?
In 40 years?
I would like to see any facts that support your supposition that the *majority* of British people had a better quality of life 40+ years ago and it was *because* of EU membership that things got worse (if they have).
You do realise that we don't have access to a parallel universe where the UK didn't join the EU so we can compare outcomes, don't you? You're comparing what did happen to a scenario that exists entirely in your imagination, which is clearly complete nonsense.
We sometimes fail to remember this vote will have the most profound impact on Britain's relationship with Europe and the rest of the world. It can be easy to forget what damage has been done in pitting Brit against Brit and the toxic legacy which will endure.
One may even sometimes forget that this is not simply a vote on whether Conservatives should be a right wing or an even further to the right party.
Quote :" One may even sometimes forget that this is not simply a vote on whether Conservatives should be a right wing or an even further to the right party."
And even more sickening is the way the labour party, led by a left winger, are suddenly in favour of the globalist multi-national agenda when it comes to the EU and jumped aboard the tory ship without even wondering exactly why working class brits feel so stiffed by them....
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Re: He wants the EU without the "globalist multi-national agenda", which means working inside it to reform it rather than just sit outside trying to piss in.
Yes, because now the EU listens more to large corporates via lobbying and has effectively depose red individual countries by making them part of a much larger voting block that tends to follow Germany for the money, the UKs voice is so clearly heard in the EU.
Reforming the UKs relationship with the EU as it stands was tried by Dave as a precursor to this referendum - doesn't anyone remember the concessions he won?
"Reforming the EU, while a good intention, is likely to take many years and arguments" - Adrian 4
Absolutely true. How long do you think it will take to complete a review of the last four decades of UK legislation and negotiate scores of bilateral trade deals?
"We sometimes fail to remember this vote will have the most profound impact on Britain's relationship with Europe and the rest of the world. It can be easy to forget what damage has been done in pitting Brit against Brit and the toxic legacy which will endure."
I'm aware how vital Brexit is to our future. There is far more at stake than near-term economic issues - the EU is fundamentally undemocratic, overrules our right to govern ourselves, and has a history of deciding against our interests. A short term economic hit caused by speculators to an otherwise successful economy is a small sacrifice to regain our independence for future generations.
Sometimes those who are well-off forget that what is good for them can be bad for everyone else. The Eurozone has made it's weaker economies dependent on bail outs, while the free movement of workers has widened inequality by increasing profits and undercutting wages. Financial indicators are that a new recession is on the way. The only thing keeping the EU's head above water is the economies of it's stronger members like Britain. After a Brexit, other members will want to leave, so there will be uncertainty for any company thinking of relocating to the EU. Iceland and Switzerland have already withdrawn their applications for membership.
If you think that after a remain vote, Brit wont be pitted against Brit then you are very much mistaken. There will be nothing our government can do to address the fundamental and exacerbating problems caused by EU rules. If we have the misfortune to remain, Corbyn has said there can be "no upper limit on immigration from the EU", and the EU will start fining any member state that doesn't accept the quota of refugees they decide. With a recession coming, this is a perfect storm for chaos.
I agree with you, quite a measured and sensible post. I just believe that our courts should have the last say on things such as deporting terrorists, for example. Also laws that effect us should be made in Westminster where we get some kind of say over who sits in the House of Commons.
Our democracy isn't perfect, but its a dam sight better than the EU's
Our FPTP system gave the Tories a Commons majority with less than a quarter of the electorate's votes.
Our upper house is populated via patronage and mutual back-scratching, and the post is for life. There are currently just short of 800 peers.
In comparison, the European Parliament is elected by PR and the Commission has 28 members nominated for a five year term by the member states.
I know which sounds more democratic to me...
As for "our courts" not having the final say on things, a Brexit vote will have no impact as the ECHR is a separate institution to the EU.
Your are correct on one point, the European Parliament is elected however therein lies so much of what is wrong. The EU is essentially run by an unelected council that makes all the decisions. The eMPs are just lobby fodder, voting on fairly insignificant bits of legislation. All the real stuff happens behind closed doors and is essentially what Germany and at them moment, to a lesser degree France want. The next layer in priority is the lobbying of all the corporations so that they get what they want. TiPP is just the beginning and the big loses will be countries like the UK that sell everything to their city chums. The US simply cannot lose once TiPP is enacted. That is not to say that whatever feeble government is in power does not do the same and sell us to the US in the event of a No vote.
I many ways the lack of accountability and transparency in the running of the EU makes the US Political system look perfect.
Whatever the outcome, the EU is ultimately going to become a dictatorship, albeit by committee, as it is simply too large and diverse to survive any other way. All empires eventually implode and this will be no different. Even if the UK votes to remain the seeds for collapse will start to germinate. The entry of various eastern non-European countries such as Turkey, Ukraine and so on will change the EU beyond all recognition. The ultimate conclusion, despite the arguments that the EU has resulted in peace will be civil unrest and potentially a catastrophic conflict. The real killer (literally) here is that the conflict will quickly grow sucking in all the problems of the Middle East and areas such as Afghanistan, Russia. Whether China can stay out will be difficult, they have so much invested here that they will ultimately get involved to protect their interests. At that point it will be a US/China willy waving contest with Europe as a smoking hole in the ground.
If you are a Brexiter, perhaps remember that UK is well known in other countries for being a class-society. EU is generally less class-centric.
I don't see how cutting ties with a more egalitarian continental EU would help reducing the class inequalities that still are so ingrained in the UK society. (Such as the massive tuition fees that keep working class people in their place.)
But perhaps Brexiters just like that type of segregation?
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And on the other side you've got Nigel Farage, Rupert Murdoch and Boris Johnson. Frankly there's arseholes on both sides of the argument, so you're better ignoring the supporters and looking at what the actual effects would be (and what evidence there is for them)
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Both sides have spouted nothing but undiluted bullcrap throughout the campaign. There wasn't a single concrete fact, or even a well presented reasoning.
So I'll be voting remain. It was up to the Leave campaign to convince me that a change would be for the better. They failed.
I suppose one huge benefit of a leave vote would be that that obnoxious little maggot, Farage, would be rendered completely irrelevant and without purpose. Every cloud, and all that.....
I note that many people automatically suspect specific interest in cases like these. What's in it for Microsoft? This is something any sensible person should look into. But the idea that you should reject a position simply because the person making it has a special interest is absolutely ridiculous.
Somebody told me the CIA were supportive of the setting up of the Union, so it was clearly a bad idea, if not a total US conspiracy. It did not seem to have occurred to them that, if the CIA thought it would be in US interests, they would support it. Maybe the CIA thought it might help prevent another European war. But just because the CIA are against it, doesn't mean that we should be for it!
Very little examination seems to have been made into why the few top-level pro-Leave business superstars have their position. Lord Bamford's famous email seems to have missed this paragraph ...
P.S. I was in favour of the common market in 1975 when I realised it would benefit my exports. But, when I tried to game the system, by trying to prevent customers from buying my goods at a lower price in other EU countries, I got caught out, lost the court case and we got fined forty million euros. It is clearly unfair that we cannot exploit the benefits of the common market whilst ignoring the silly little obligations that come with it. This is why I'm backing the leave campaign. Don't worry, I've got plenty of money, some of it probably in offshore tax havens (I've got so much I can't be expected to remember where it all is), so it isn't too much of a burden making big donations to the Brexit campaign.
>Like Silver Cross problems in France
Exactly, France has regulations for prams that are more stringent than the EU regulations ... when you want to sell prams in a market, like any other kind of goods, YOU MAKE SURE YOUR GOODS are conform to the regulations in the target market, rocket science ??? For Silver Cross, a business that has only been in the pram business for mere centuries, yes ...
Don't get me wrong, I do #!/bin/dash /dev/frogland when they deserve it ... but here, frankly, Silver Cross fucked up ... all they needed to do was to send one pram per model to be sold in France to the watchdog ... easy, right ? No ... they tried to sneak in, got caught, and complain. Note that all other pram manufacturers selling in France adhere to the regulations ...
Besides, how does a Brexit affect that, exactly ?
On the one hand, you want more autonomy, on the other, you cry when another state makes use of its autonomy with regards to EU regulations.
I think the UK should be forced to stand in line with the other countries in the EU or kicked out.
I seriously have had enough of the spoiled-brat-mentality!
NO EXCEPTIONS FOR THE UK, don't like it ? /usr/sbin/parted
The really sad thing is, the up-voters to my post are, I imagine, for a Brexit ... they do not want to listen, believe Mr Farage and Miss Marine Le Pen, ROFL .... Seriously, mates, you do not know what is gonna happen if you Brexit, and I have ordered pop-corn, because .... well ... I think it will be hilarious!
You are too stupid for words!
I get the impression that's Brexit is mainly supported by the working-class.
Isn't it ironic that the EU is the main guarantor of decent working class conditions?
UK does not have a good track record on its own when it comes to equality and minimum standards of living. Not at all.
Yes; when people like the boss of JCB, Nigel Farage, etc. talk about "doing away with EU restrictions" you'd have to pretty naïve to not think that they mean:
Health & Safety legislation (such as that under which JCB has been fined)
Minimum 28 days annual leave (indeed Michael Gove has voiced support in the past for a US-style 10 days annual leave)
Written statement of terms & conditions
Working time directive
Parental leave entitlement
The likely EU outlawing of zero-hours contracts (assuming the UK doesn't use its veto to block this)
Indeed, it's rather like watching turkeys voting for Christmas.
Shocking how they are being taken in by an Eton toff and an ex banker by the hollow promises of making Britain great again.
What they don't realise, when the likes of Johnson, Farage, Gove, etc talk about being better off out of the EU they mean how they, themselves will be better off, riding on the backs of the poor sheep they suckered into voting Brexit.